#Hex Master Rework (Temporary)

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small glen
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Hex Master (Coven Power)

Attack: Unstoppable
Defense: None

Abilities:

  • Hex a player at night, isolating them from you and other Hexed players.
  • Cremate Coven corpses, granting additional Hexes at night.
  • Trigger Hex Bomb the day after all non-Coven players are Hexed.

Attributes:

  • With the Necronomicon, players you visit are dealt a Basic Attack.
  • If a Retributionist or Necromancer uses your corpse to trigger Hex Bomb, they must be killed for it to dissipate.

Hex (♾️)

  • Hex a player at night, priming them for annihilation.
  • Hexed Town members who visit you or other Hexed players will have their visit impeded by an Unknown Object.
  • Players cannot have their visit blocked due to Hexes consecutively.
  • Upon your death, all Hexes lose their ability to block visitors.
  • Other rolestoppers and roleblockers cannot be blocked by Hexes.

Cremate (0)

  • For each ally who dies, Cremate their corpse and gain an additional charge of this ability.
  • Use to Hex an additional player at night.
  • This is an Astral Visit.

Hex Bomb (Passive)

  • If all non-Coven members are ever Hexed, the Town will be alerted to your presence the next day.
  • If you are not then killed, all players who oppose you will be dealt an Unstoppable Attack at sunset.

Feedback:

  • The earth beneath your feet tremors. The Hex Master's incantation is complete-- woe be upon the town!
  • Your visit was impeded by an Unknown Object.
latest.png
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Reason for Change:

I'm overhauling the Coven Power category.

Currently, CPow possesses two extremely powerful utility roles and a mediocre win condition, making it a mixed bag with no real cohesion; however, I believe that the category itself requires more standardisation. The changes to the category aim to cement them as powerful anchors: reliable abilities that can be depended on to act as the cornerstone of a successful Coven win, but gradually become more and more present as the game goes on.

Hex Master has always been a rampup role, being most useful if it survives late game. However, due to its all-or-nothing nature and noninteractable ability (as well as the common complaint that it's not useful for getting majority), I'm going to be trying to cement its niche as a more crowd-control based Coven role.

This rework builds on my previous one (https://discord.com/channels/1110363758792036352/1254547366414123133), but gives the Hex Master additional utility in locking down town the more that it lives. As its presence becomes more and more clear, town is likely going to identify the Coven Power slot (a common trend with these reworks, as you'll begin to see) later in the game; however, with this change, Hex Master will be able to continuously drain town's ability to work amidst itself as the game goes on, fixing its swing issues as a win condition role.

The Hexbomb keeps its Death-like nature. Combined with the ability for town to deduce the presence of a Hex Master through visit-tracing, this allows for more interactivity within the town in regards to the Coven Power slot, as well as making the decision on who to Hex more impactful.
.

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Essentially, while blocking visits might seem like a tacky ability at first, my goal with this was to design a Coven Power role which gradually becomes more and more of a threat as the game goes on. As Hexes are permanent, they're likely to shut down more and more visits as a game goes on, culminating in a bomb when all are placed.

tidal pond
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I feel like Tavern keeper being not stopped by hexes makes less sense given its stopped by crus and starspawn? But I really like this rework

small glen
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I feel as if a RB immune HM is too much

tidal pond
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That's fair actually

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Didn't consider that interactyion

elder mason
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the problem is if it's basic, then TP can save power roles to win a 1v1

sage mason
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I don’t actually think you can make tav immune to specifically this unknown obstacle

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Unknown Obstacle gets processed first

tidal pond
small glen
sage mason
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The attack happens at dusk so have fun protecting someone during the fay

tidal pond
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Oh that's also true lmao

small glen
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Sunset = Same precedent as Death, occurs immediately after the lynch

elder mason
small glen
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Neutrals will live

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But everyone else will essentially be dealt a basic conj attack

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So all town will die

elder mason
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I like it but I'm a bit confused about the UO part?

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won't that be rlly hard to code?

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other than that, 10/10 rework

small glen
elder mason
small glen
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Mm

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I can try formulating a code model and seeing how that goes

tidal pond
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Ohh I misunderstood - I thought it was only hexed players on hexed players, not hexed players on the hm as well

small glen
sage mason
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I’m not sure this is something you can reasonably call being hard to code

small glen
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Same reason Baker appears to have bread to a vanilla tos2 Spy

tidal pond
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That makes a lot of sense

sage mason
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But I do know crusader and starspawn process basically first in night order

tidal pond
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Baker actually does have bread

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not just appears to

small glen
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Shrug

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Same thing since the bread does nothing

tidal pond
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Well, until a cs comes into play

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It causes much earlier famines if cs steals famine

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I've seen d3 famine

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But in general you're right

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You could just make hm have hex to start with

small glen
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Lmao

tidal pond
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You raise a valid point
Make it ignore teammates or smth

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Mind you that's all backend stuff anwyay

frail cave
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welp ive made my 2 cents on why i dont really like it ot that much

elder mason
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Not yours

frail cave
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but hey maybe itll be good

elder mason
frail cave
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disruption p much and the fact bomb is the way it is

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i dont like deaths wincon system

tidal pond
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Well this isn't death's wincon system though?

sage mason
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Imagine not liking BOMBER

tidal pond
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Its a basic attack, not instawin

frail cave
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its an instawin dude

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it kills every townie

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i still think its stupid that its a basic attack

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the nks gonna die anyways

small glen
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In AA its more contentious, since Apoc and NK can sometimes claw back a win after a bomb

tidal pond
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Oh true - I tend to think more of chaos modes rather than ranked

small glen
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Is it because its too easy to buss teammates to get it

small glen
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Especially if a Coven member is lynched in the process of triggering it

frail cave
small glen
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Not to mention NA

frail cave
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na dont exist

small glen
frail cave
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apoc also dont have defense

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and should die

frail cave
small glen
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I mean transformed NA

elder mason
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bers has def

small glen
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Whatever

frail cave
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i still think since apocs a team now they should be subject to dying to this

fresh bluff
frail cave
fresh bluff
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?

frail cave
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if you lose teammates tou can get compensated by bonus hexes

fresh bluff
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oh

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so you get 3 extra hexes

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throughotu the game

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if all your team-mates die

frail cave
frail cave
small glen
frail cave
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i mean any lower than that and theyre doomed anyways

small glen
frail cave
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but i still think they shouldnt just die after all that effort

small glen
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You can still only hex at most 2 people per night though

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(Realistically 1 if you're solo)

daring tusk
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I think this rework is great but it honestly might end up being a little too strong. Imagine this:

  • You hex someone N1 and coven kills - 1 Hexed 1 dead (townies)
  • Bus a coven during the day to confirm self
  • You hex two people at night and someone else kills - 3 hexed 2 dead
  • you Mislynch a townie
  • you kill and hex N3 - 4 hexed, 4 dead

You’ve essentially already won at this point, and this is also assuming no CK gets a chance to do anything / No TK misplays / TPOW only get one mislynch on d3 (even if they have a correct lynch you just end up with 3 dead town and 5 hexed, same result)

small glen
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That's fair

daring tusk
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TK can also not kill you at night by virtue of being UO if hexed

small glen
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Cremate as a mechanic works on paper, but likely doesn't line up well in terms of actual player ratios

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I might tinker with it a bit more

daring tusk
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I think it’s a cool mechanic that hex could definitely use I just don’t think it would be balanced based on the other roles that currently exist - not inherently a problem with your role however

small glen
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Mhm

frail cave
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i think the cremate issue can be solved by adding more players

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a feature that WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ADDED

daring tusk
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Yea if lobbies were like 20 people or so this role fucking slaps in terms of balance imo

frail cave
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idk if thats a good or bad thing tho

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thats so conflicting

daring tusk
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Oh I didn’t even consider that

tidal pond
daring tusk
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Honestly I would be down to experiment with this rework to see how it would play in an actual game but I suspect hex master win rates would fucking skyrocket

tidal pond
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I see the point you're meaning

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Maybe there needs to be a way to slow it down a bit

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You can only hex normally on full moon nights?

daring tusk
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Hmmm. I don’t think the hex itself is the problem more so the catch up mechanic

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You are directly incentivized to bus/kill off coven in day lynches (that are not the hex) in favor of winning the game quickly

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TLDR; you could (essentially) win by N3 while only losing 1-2 coven to day lynches and town would really need to have their shit together to stop you when you reveal

frail cave
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could amalgamate my hm rework with this

small glen
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What is your HM rework

frail cave
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pinged you there

fresh bluff
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bro DTT is going to be stupid

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and pandora modes

tidal pond
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Oh yea dtt and pandora just makes this so powerful

small glen
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Lmao

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That part can easily be removed if necessary

tidal pond
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If its going to be btos2 it should have that taken into account

frail cave
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make it account for pandora

tidal pond
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I'd suggest just dropping the starting with charges

small glen
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That’s what I was thinking

frail cave
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if pandoras active itll see if you have less than 3 teammates

small glen
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Cremate is strong enough as it is

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Also changed Coven member to Ally

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As to account for Pandora

tidal pond
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That seems a little more balanced in those modes

sage mason
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Nah
It'll have 7 charges if it's solo Pandora HM 😹

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8 possible teammates

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(I'm a genius)

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Anyway uhhh
How would Ally work for town

frail cave
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charges cap at 3

tidal pond
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Town hm is already busted

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I think?

frail cave
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cant use it more than 3 times no matter what

tidal pond
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Because you have so few people to hex and can out who coven are

sage mason
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Well okay that's a bug
Town evil roles are meant to be able to choose whoever

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So a town hex master should have to correctly hex every evil to fire rather than just knowing them

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😹

tidal pond
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I think it happens
It might have been changed recently

small glen
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Because the ability requires all non coven to be hexed

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But also kills all non coven afterward

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As a town HM you can’t really do much

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It’s pretty dumb

frail cave
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make it kill anyone whose not you

sage mason
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Generally when you're swapped factional parts of the ability change (e.g, apoc illu can choose apoc and not coven)

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So town hex master would kill all non town after hexing all non town

small glen
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If we’re going by BOTC Alchemist design philosophies

frail cave
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wait

sage mason
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No that's just mechanically how it works in game

small glen
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I can design a non-factional one

frail cave
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what is alchemist

small glen
frail cave
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first say that

sage mason
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Alchemist botc is a Townsfolk with a Minion ability

small glen
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Yes

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Essentially

frail cave
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oh its that

small glen
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Think town with a coven ability

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That’s the equivalent

frail cave
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the evil traitor thats also blind

small glen
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It’s also townsided

sage mason
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Not really an evil traitor

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But sure

small glen
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Not a traitor

sage mason
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Honestly if like half the coven weren't useless on town alchemist would be a funny town special

small glen
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Half the coven is useless and the other half is busted

sage mason
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Broken? Maybe
But funny

frail cave
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i mean i aint surprised

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its like saying dolphins suck because they cant walk

frail sapphire
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This is interesting

small glen
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I'm surprised you're only now seeing this

frail sapphire
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just didn't see when it was posted uuupsy

halcyon rain
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Still a bit underpowered, but SO much healthier

small glen
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People earlier were calling this overpowered because of Cremate

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You can bus a Coven for trust then get Hexbomb on D4 or something

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Shrug

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It’s being tested over on the CTS

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We’ll see how strong it is then

frail sapphire
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It gives HM actual utility

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And I like that it also kind of reveals the threat is there as well

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Or, at least town can figure out that it's coming

halcyon rain
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hm always triggers on coven maj anyways lmao

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unless other KPN

small glen
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Yeah

small glen
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Which I think is an interesting designspace to explore

small glen
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From both the HM's and the town's standpoint

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Right now I don't like how as a stealth bomber, it just wins automatically after arbitrarily choosing all players

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Town can't combat that

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And Coven can't really strategize around that

small glen
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So I updated to specify Necro/Ret interactions + what happens when the HM changes alignment

restive blaze
small glen
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NP aren't specifically Coven allies

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They're allies to all evils

restive blaze
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quite anomalous ! !

frail cave
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it would be hell if nps counted to this

brazen bloom
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Hex master is more as a clutch strategy when your coven is falling rather than an actual wincon

small glen
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Yeah

ashen stirrup
small glen
ashen stirrup
sage stream
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it's interesting

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the UO that automatically activates on HM is interesting - it's like HM showing up inno with book in tos1

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it's helpful, but at certain times could work against you when trying to figure out who the HM is

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and yeah this is a lot louder

novel slate
brazen bloom
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ngl

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i dont really like how HM isn't an insta-wincon anymore

brazen bloom
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this would be terrible in TAA, after the hex bomb goes off its an NK royale instead of coven actually winning

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@small glen

small glen
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I debated whether leaving HM as Unstoppable or nerfing it to Basic was a better idea

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I settled on this because of two reasons

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  1. Neutral roles need all the help they can get, and having them completely wiped out by a wincon belonging to a factional team (which is already at an advantage against them by default) seems very unfair
  2. Coven has strategies to dispose of neutrals during the day, such as accusing them and whatnot. If they can do that before Hexbomb triggers, it becomes a wincon again.
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Also

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This is getting into CTS™️ stuff

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But theres a modifier over there called Empowered Powers

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That essentially buffs Cpows to be able to fight neutrals a lot better

novel slate
small glen
small glen
novel slate
small glen
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In those, it doesnt matter if HM has Unstoppable or Basic

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But I still considered it

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For the sake of those gamemodes

small glen
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Aka the one that fucks neutrals in the ass

brazen bloom
small glen
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Empowered Powers is only really used for high neutral-density Chaos modes

small glen
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It's not worthwhile to impliment

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It's just fun little stuff on the CT Server

brazen bloom
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A hex bomb is unable to be triggered if a member of an opposing evil faction is alive

small glen
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That's worse

brazen bloom
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i just want my funny instant town-wipe okay

small glen
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The instant town-wipe is badass if you're Coven

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But its unhealthy and you know it

novel slate
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Being on the receiving end of an hex bomb is one of the worst feeling in the game

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because there's no announcement, you might be winning and just loses because a silent role nuked half the town without any way of knowing beforehand

brazen bloom
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one of my best moments was hex nuking a Pest as the last coven

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i may be slightly biased towards HM

small glen
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Base HM's main issue is its uninteractibility

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It can't be interacted with by town at all

novel slate
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also, the fact that the hex bomb can actually be defended against allows TP to be useful late game

frail sapphire
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Pride r u an alt account

small glen
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Fyi

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Its a day kill

novel slate
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oh fuck mb

brazen bloom
frail sapphire
novel slate
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nah it's basic

brazen bloom
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but my main isn't in any TOS related servers

small glen
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The only town role that has a chance of surviving is a Mon with a Knight, and he's not long for this world afterwards

small glen
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Ah mb

frail sapphire
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Oh I thought u meant base game HM was basic idk why LOL

small glen
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You werent responding to me

novel slate
frail sapphire
novel slate
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Still allow mon to survive

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so now if mon can knight himself somehow real

small glen
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I gave it buildup with the Hex bouncing and an announcement

frail sapphire
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Gang what if we removed monarch defense but gave it three knights 👍

novel slate
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gang what if we removed nuggy kneecaps

small glen
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And to buff it into Cpow viability, I gave it a comeback mechanic that expedited its wincon when the rest of its team started to die

frail sapphire
brazen bloom
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i just realized

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JACKAL WOULD ABSOLUTELY FOLD HM IN JR MODES

novel slate
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I mean jackal would fold any coven in JR

frail sapphire
small glen
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True

small glen
frail sapphire
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Ooh

small glen
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It just makes Monarch worse

frail sapphire
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Oh

small glen
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I prefer current Mon over that

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Because its more unique

frail sapphire
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Oh right fairs

small glen
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A Tpow that increases its own survivability is very unique

frail sapphire
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That is valid

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I like current mon as wel

small glen
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Your change would get rid of that in return for Mon doing what it does better

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Countering majority

novel slate
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Mon should honestly be lowkey played like a vet

brazen bloom
small glen
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I become super aggro after getting a Knight down

novel slate
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you knight someone you know is confirmed then try to lead the town to be targetted to waste time

frail sapphire
small glen
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Half the time, it works

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And I get hit the next night

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Only to watch Coven scramble to frame me and fail miserably

novel slate
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and the other half your knight walks into a vet somehow

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even tho vet is banned

frail sapphire
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LOL

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They find a way 👍

frail sapphire
novel slate
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I think we need a role like vet existing just to force players into playing more aggro

frail sapphire
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Many reasons why it’s good actually

novel slate
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'cause a passive town is a losing town

frail sapphire
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If there has to be roles that can be insta confirm I’d like them to be more like monarch

small glen
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But I hate Vet

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Im sad that theres only two other bait roles outside of Vet (Mon and Trick)

novel slate
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I like bait roles.
I miss transporter.

frail sapphire
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I had an idea for like Amne but bait role

But it wasn’t very fun so

brazen bloom
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tpows being insta-confirmed sucks ass though

novel slate
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Baiting evils into attacking someone just for them to kill themselves 'cause you transported them with their target

small glen
frail sapphire
small glen
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Sucks if more do though

novel slate
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Insta confirm roles are bad

frail sapphire
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And yeah one instant confirmation role is find

novel slate
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Mayor is honestly the only one that should self confirm

small glen
frail sapphire
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It’s also fine in TT where they can be traitor

small glen
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Especially with

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Gigachad Illusionist

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Masquerade is insane in reducing mech confirmation

novel slate
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Aight so I did not expect temporary to say gigachad illu but here we are

frail sapphire
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Double tpow is necessary in TT otherwise town’s anti maj source can side coven LOL

brazen bloom
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cant deputy bait coven into killing them after firing since they're useless by then

frail sapphire
novel slate
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you're still a vote

small glen
novel slate
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mon got basic defense, vet will fucking murder them and trick will absorb it

frail sapphire
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BUT

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Staying alive can also help

novel slate
frail sapphire
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It’s your chocie

small glen
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You're literally a spent Virgin

novel slate
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it's better to try to bait evils into attacking someone that won't die

small glen
#

That's powerful as hell

small glen
frail sapphire
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Don’t forget dep can moss

small glen
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Moss?

frail sapphire
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They never specified dep hot

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What the fuck

novel slate
#

what

frail sapphire
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How did I do that teice

novel slate
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dep can moss

frail sapphire
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LMFAO

small glen
frail sapphire
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AHAHAHAA

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WTF

novel slate
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look at that 'stache

brazen bloom
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dep can miss

novel slate
small glen
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true

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Dep is bluffable in the same way Slayer is bluffable

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You can bluff the fail state, not the success state

frail sapphire
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If you miss becoming a bait role is valid

small glen
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Admirer is the true bait role here

frail sapphire
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Get a spent unconfirmed townie killed over a more useful one

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Real!!

novel slate
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if you miss just claim vig and start aggressively pushing

frail sapphire
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Myeah

novel slate
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85% chance you'll get attacked

small glen
novel slate
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15% chance you'll get ritted

novel slate
frail sapphire
brazen bloom
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or better yet

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claim missed shot deputy as vigi

frail sapphire
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Omg LOL

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These are the possible shenanigans when the game is not littered with instant confirmation

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Base game dep has none of this

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It just kills a townie then dies

brazen bloom
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CLAIMING JACKAL AS MAYOR IS AMAZING

frail sapphire
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xd

brazen bloom
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they spared me the entire match since they thought i was the CN jester

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i revealed at the last day as the tpow who was out of town all game

small glen
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Think about it

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But yeah i hate instaconfirms in my sdg

frail sapphire
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Broken

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Tbh LUL

small glen
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They're okay in moderation but they suck when over a third of your game consists of them

frail sapphire
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Base game has so much more broken shit on towns side

small glen
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Ideally, every role should be bluffable

frail sapphire
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Yeah 100%

small glen
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Ngl, bluffing is an aspect the tos devs didnt pay ANY attention to

frail sapphire
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Every role that has an instant confirmation mechanic in BOTC also has a failsafe where it can not work

small glen
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The closest they've done to supporting it is adding Wildling

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And Wildling is Wildling

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💀

ashen stirrup
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BG is pretty hard to bluff :D

frail sapphire
small glen
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I hate how in the vanilla game, a good third of the town is just straight up off limits for bluffing

small glen
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They ported a lot of stuff over from SC2 Mafia

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And it shows

frail sapphire
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Mhm

small glen
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Then they ported a bunch of stuff over from TiS

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And that went horribly

frail sapphire
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Also I have heard ideas that were passed around internally before marsh and soc were added

I won’t say what but

Oh my god

small glen
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Inventory System

frail sapphire
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They are all like soc

small glen
frail sapphire
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Yeah that was one of them LOL

ashen stirrup
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Blacksmith was passed around as an idea?!?

small glen
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Yes

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Unironically

ashen stirrup
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how

small glen
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They were about to add it

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But they decided it was too complex

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And said they were thinking about introducing it later

ashen stirrup
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where was this info leaked?

small glen
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Somewhere

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I forgot the source

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But Nuggy can back me up on this

frail sapphire
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Yeah temp is telling the truth

small glen
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I think it was an interview

frail sapphire
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I didn’t know it was called blacksmith I just knew it existed LUL

ashen stirrup
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blacksmith should just have every ability in the game fr

frail cave
sage mason
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it is real

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it'd give out guns

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LMAO

novel slate
frail cave
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ik what blacksmith does

sage mason
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consider how much KP got added

frail cave
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but how can anyone ever consider blacksmith as an idea

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FOR ANY SDG?

novel slate
sage mason
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gunsmith is uh
a well tested addition to tos FM

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inventor as a general mafia term is actually pretty common

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(note inventor as a term is modular since they can give out anything the designer wants them to)

frail sapphire
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I don’t think it’s NECESSARILY* a bad idea but there needs to be evil counterparts or just general ways it can be faked

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For blacksmith not

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Gun giving role whatever it is LIL

sage mason
#

it doesnt work in tos because of the fact roles arent alignment agnostic

#

blacksmith i think was gonna be tpow so

#

eh

small glen
#

ngl

frail cave
#

i think the bigger issue is the fact it gives VIGI BULLETS

frail sapphire
#

Myeah

frail cave
frail sapphire
#

Also doesn’t work with non coven lists

small glen
#

Especially when those evil counterparts offer no utility outside of being claimbags

frail cave
#

evil counterparts to town roles play very differently

small glen
#

Stares at Hypno and Wildling

frail cave
#

or cant help their team at all

frail sapphire
#

Hypno was just claim transporter simulator LOL

sage mason
frail cave
#

peak hypno gameplay

sage mason
#

like okay
if im designing a closed setup and put an inventor in
by virtue of being a closed setup the inventor isn't confirmed, and that's good design

frail cave
#

even better

sage mason
#

but just taking tos

frail cave
#

'you triggered a trap'

sage mason
#

and having "good inventor and evil inventor"

#

is lazy

#

and makes the evil inventor either really weak or bad at faking the original

frail sapphire
#

And then we have alchemist who is an inversion of that LOL

frail cave
#

or immensely op/oppressive

#

both can happen seperately

small glen
sage mason
small glen
#

Which is the inverse of Alchemist

frail cave
sage mason
#

well huli jing gets 5 abilities

#

so

frail cave
#

why does that sound familiar

frail sapphire
frail cave
#

give me a damn second

sage mason
#

this is why im glad tol did not just

frail cave
#

oh the chinese fox spirit

sage mason
#

make unseen converts carbon copies

frail sapphire
sage mason
#

unless they were actually useful

frail sapphire
#

I think being able to shit on TP stacking is fun

sage mason
#

like its so broken

frail sapphire
#

Yeah it’s fair LUL

sage mason
#

sage and ritualist

#

sage also had starspawn isolate though

#

so

#

but ritualist was the best cult role because of its transport

frail sapphire
#

Is tol the one that had sellsword

sage mason
#

ye

frail sapphire
#

Starspawn is literally Sellsword right

sage mason
#

sellsword lets attacks and conversion through
starspawn lets all non-town thru

frail sapphire
#

I’m assuming so because when tuba first proposed it he just said sellsword LOL

sage mason
#

but yes

#

tuba yoinked sellsword tol

frail sapphire
#

Oh yeah Starspawn got buffed to do that tho tbf

#

It was originally pretty 1 to 1

sage mason
#

notably though sellsword ability also counted as a roleblock

#

so if you had roleblock immunity you'd go thru it

small glen
sage mason
small glen
sage mason
#

if they gained it via CW or being roleblocked 3 times

#

they'd bypass sellsword

frail sapphire
sage mason
#

you could however bypass roleblock immune TP if you had an enforcer as unseen

frail sapphire
#

The idea of that is a downside to like Crus and Oracle so idk about slapping it on all TP

#

To be fair it would be nice to give a bigger niche to trapper though

sage mason
small glen
#

Might be too harsh

frail sapphire
#

I feel like crus would need a new downside with it but not sure

sage mason
frail sapphire
#

Yeaahhh

sage mason
frail sapphire
#

What enforcer

sage mason
#

converted knight
2 shots of frenzy - makes the Assassin's kills truly unstoppable for that night

#

its a delete button

#

think current ritualist kill
you cant stop it

#

but no extra KP

#

(note im only half serious because enforcer was kinda busted but also. it did work to make tp less oppressive!)

sage mason
frail sapphire
#

😵

small glen
#

But idk what to do with it

frail sapphire
#

I don’t have much experience with it so I’ve not like raged and peed myself first hand because of it

sage mason
#

honestly if crus just. counted as a roleblock. It might actually be perfecto.
But thats hard to program with tos action resolution

small glen
#

Universal Rolestoppers are known for being quite strong

#

This is no exception

frail sapphire
small glen
#

It does

#

But still

#

thats niche

frail sapphire
#

I do agree we need more sources of UO tho

sage mason
#

it does ignore but i think thats 1 role since necro isn't technically astral

frail sapphire
#

🤯

#

Or if admirer goes on evil CurtisUwU

sage mason
#

like for most purposes necro ghoul is astral
but mechanically the necro is sending a non-player entity to kill the target

brazen bloom
#

coven passes the book to their hm and now the crus is just a pre-buff starspawn

small glen
brazen bloom
#

some people actually want illu to grant full astral visits

small glen
brazen bloom
#

I can only shudder at the thought

sage mason
#

astral visits were just a mechanically strange way to have a hidden visit
like what was the point

#

was just hiding a visit too hard

small glen
#

They legit made LO astral

#

Instead of camouflaging it

brazen bloom
#

imagine if illu itself was astral, AND granted the target astral visits on top of that

#

you could get a coven setup that straight up never visits at night

#

anyways...

#

this seems alright

#

I don't see anything terribly wrong that I can point out

small glen
#

Or am I misremembering

brazen bloom
#

not this particular post

#

I can't remember if I did in a previous post

small glen
#

It might have been the Wilding one

brazen bloom
#

if anything this might be a bit fast under certain circumstances

#

if town is steadily lynching coven but isn't getting the hm, you can potentially get hex bomb in just a few nights

frail sapphire
brazen bloom
#

that was probably one of if not the biggest reason for it being astral

#

but I can't imagine they even considered hidden visits for it

#

especially since full astral was something a lot of people were suggesting

novel slate
#

I mean they don't even know tf an astral visit is

#

technically speaking doomsayer, arsonist ignite and ritualist blood ritual are astral attacks, not astral visits

#

since for some cursed reason an astral attack is not the same as an astral visit

brazen bloom
#

jester is also an astral attack

sage stream
fathom anchor
small glen
#

I’m considering buffing this HM’s attack to unstoppable again

#

Currently it’s being tested on the CTS

#

My logic here is

#

Neutrals should be incentivized to kill the HM beforehand

#

So I personally want to upgrade it again, but let me know what you think

novel slate
#

How about making it a ramping attack?

#

Basic -> Powerful -> Unstoppable

small glen
#

Huh

#

Thats not going to come into play in 95% of proc conditions

#

With Basic Attack HM, usually the HM dies after the bomb

novel slate
#

depend if coven got maj or not after the hex bomb

small glen
#

This is essentially just answering the “should HM only win if it eliminates all neutrals first” question

small glen
#

90% of the time they won’t

#

I’ve made the change for now

#

I’ll see how it fares over at the CTS™️

#

Also, comparing this role to something like Death

#

Death has unstoppable

#

And fills a similar design space as HM

brazen bloom
# small glen

I think that if anything it should just pierce tps

fathom anchor
#

TPs dont affect since the Hex Bomb takes place during the day

frail cave
brazen bloom
#

oh yeah

ashen stirrup
#

Boom

small glen
# small glen
poll_question_text

Should this HM have an Unstoppable Attack

victor_answer_votes

7

total_votes

12

victor_answer_id

1

victor_answer_text

Yes (It’s an alternate win condition)

#

I’m surprised the results were that close

frail cave
#

well its a pretty big debate

#

either its basic and hm cant really act as a normal emergency wincon role for coven or its unstop and neuts get fucked even if they had a sliver of a chance

ashen stirrup
#

Make it Powerful CurtisMan

fathom anchor
#

Both make sense

#

Alt wincon gives you more things to play for but giving neutrals a fighting chance is also super valid

small glen
#

HM doesn’t have defense

#

It also can’t bounce Neutrals
So Neutrals already have a fighting chance

fathom anchor
#

But Coven are a team that can coordinate and choose to help HM while Neutrals are solo

#

Idk in my eyes its both options are just roughly equally good

brazen bloom
#

sometimes you just don't kill the hm

#

also this would most likely outpace arso

brazen bloom
#

honestly

#

HM doesnt need much of a rework

#

i think it needs a buff, like hexed targets are framed after HM dies

#

its main issue was that it either decimates the town or dies D3 with no value

small glen
#

The rest of this post is all buffs

#

Because it also needs those to be a proper comeback role

iron hill
#

^

halcyon rain
#

a bit late are we

frail sapphire
#

Hmm, I have been thinking about this

#

I think its good tbh but

#

I have been thinking more and more on the fact that everybody is going to be getting UO

#

Wouldn't that start to get really annoying to play against>

small glen
brazen bloom
#

it probably wouldn't be that big of an issue until the hex bomb is about to go off anyways

#

and even then you can visit the other coven

#

which could probably be used in some way to figure out who the other coven could be

#

if you get hit with a lot of unknown obstacles, your targets are less likely to be coven

iron hill
small glen
#

Ok no

#

I did update it so visits cant be blocked consecutively

#

Good

#

That issue is solved then

ebon fulcrum
#

once again do Hexes still count for UOs when HM is dead

small glen
#

Tbh

#

I'll make a minor change

ebon fulcrum
#

that night

small glen
#

Hexes dont dispel on death anymore, but they lose their bounce properties

#

So Necro can be viable

ebon fulcrum
#

ok

small glen