#Profiteer - Apocalypse War

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

burnt junco
#

Profiteer

Faction: Apocalypse

Sub-Alignment: Apocalypse War

Attributes:
⚔️ Attack: Basic (Powerful with ability)
🛡️ Defense: Basic (Powerful with ability)
Roleblock immune: No
Control immune: No (Yes with ability)
Unique: Yes

Abilities:
You may choose to either Bombard or Attack at night.

Bombard (3 charges, night)

  • When using the ability, the user stays at home.
  • Grants the user Powerful Defense.
  • Anyone visiting the user will be dealt a Powerful Attack, and will be "Disintegrated" if killed.
  • No one, not even the Apocalypse, can view the role or will of Disintegrated targets.

Attack (infinite charges, night)

  • Deal basic attack to a target.
  • Cannot be activated on non-full moon nights.

Attributes:

  • Targets that visit a Bombarding Profiteer or are directly attacked by a Profiteer will be shown the same attack message.
  • After gaining 3 or more kills, transform into War and lose any Bombard charges you have left.
  • A Berserker and a Profiteer cannot exist at the same time.

It's an Apocalypse Veteran that's a subset of War. It's not too dissimilar to Medusa in TOS1, in the sense that the ability can prevent the role and will of the victim from being seen.

While less versatile, it has potential for more killpower, especially with a town that isn't expecting it.

left gust
#

This is cracked

#

Go on a tplo and you just win

burnt junco
#

it's not a Rampage

#

It's more akin to a veteran Alerting

left gust
#

Oh

#

Hmm

burnt junco
#

I'll edit it to make it more clear

left gust
#

The thing is

#

Bombard can cause this to be faster than a normal berserker

burnt junco
#

it could also be slower

left gust
#

Yeah

#

Huge risk-reward

burnt junco
#

basically

#

also can fall back on a basic attack basic defense if need be

#

and loses charges when transformed

#

you could theoretically just say "I'm tpow TPLO" and get three+ charges, but everyone will know you are the Profiteer when all the TP claims are disintegrated

#

same with TOS1 Medusa

#

except without the knowledge of what roles were stoned

#

honestly the whole "Disintegrate hiding everyone's roles for apocalypse" thing could be removed, but I personally like it better

gilded kernel
#

swingy as shit

burnt junco
#

swingy?

burnt junco
left gust
#

It can be really good or just suck ig

#

Wait

#

I just got the coven role

#

Yay

burnt junco
#

It is worse in modes like All Any, but the role is marginally better in Apocalypse-oriented gamemodes

#

besides monarch with an alive knight, town can't survive neither a basic nor powerful attack without protection

#

and protection protects against both

#

If you choose only to attack and not use Bombard, and assuming no protections or roleblocks, you can transform night 5, as opposed to berserker's night 4 transformation

#

however, there is utility in the form of Bombard, especially on non-full moon nights, where profiteer can snag an extra kill night 1 or night 3 when they can't normally attack

graceful lagoon
burnt junco
#

while berserker is more versatile, having a role that *could have more killpower sooner and has a different method of attack would add some extra wiggle room for apocalypse.

#

asking for TPLO is more dubious

#

checking suspected killers is more risky

gilded kernel
#

youre literally berserker+

burnt junco
#

You can choose not to use it

gilded kernel
#

you have a consistent form of attacking albeit with thw fmoon restriction but you also have a totally unstable ability

gilded kernel
burnt junco
#

if you choose to, yeah

#

also from n5 it's full moon every night

#

I can see someone going "X role here, going on Y n1"

#

which happened when Medusa had this ability in TOS1

gilded kernel
#

and then theres the negative pb synergy

gilded kernel
#

this role suffers from pb

burnt junco
#

berserker has negative baker synergy

gilded kernel
gilded kernel
#

if you as berserker feel the need to attack breaded thats because whoever is baker played badly

burnt junco
#

if someone dies to Profiteer n1, people will claim who they went on n1 to prove they're not the Profiteer

gilded kernel
#

but barely anyone visits

burnt junco
#

it isn't just "free kills" people will be wary

gilded kernel
#

so likely nobodys gonna die from profiteer

gilded kernel
#

i said its unstable

#

swingy

#

it has little control over who it kills

burnt junco
#

analogy for war

gilded kernel
#

...

#

did you fucking make this role for the sole purpose of thematics

#

because if you did theres a place for that

burnt junco
#

no, but how you describe it is funny

gilded kernel
#

hhh

burnt junco
#

also, like I said, it isn't that much better than berserker

#

if Bombard misses n1 and n3, it's n5 transformation

#

if Bombard hits, people will see who visited who

#

n1 it can kill a TI here and there

gilded kernel
#

again, swingy

burnt junco
#

swingy if people don't know what to do against it

gilded kernel
#

its either really fucking strong or really crap

gilded kernel
burnt junco
#

look

#

if you choose not to use Bombard, it's an n5 transformation

gilded kernel
#

but you should

burnt junco
#

there's a basic attack n2, n4, n5-

gilded kernel
#

barely anyone visits

burnt junco
#

which is why it's fine

gilded kernel
#

but its not

burnt junco
#

it's slightly worse or slightly better in most scenarios

gilded kernel
#

a whole night

#

-3 nights to +1 nights

#

thats swingy

burnt junco
#

-3 nights is hella unlikely

#

there's always that chance, sure

gilded kernel
#

its possible

burnt junco
#

but having that as a baseline is crazy

gilded kernel
#

the fact its possible is the issue

#

ensure no possible scenario is unbalanced as shit

#

if theres a possibility for the role to be unfairly strong remove it

burnt junco
#

pesti can transform day 3 as well

gilded kernel
#

and its weak as shit

burnt junco
#

or take years to transform

gilded kernel
#

also thats a problem too

#

so like yeah

burnt junco
#

my point is, what's wrong with that little variance?

#

doesn't make it swingy

gilded kernel
#

the variance is literally swing

burnt junco
#

-night 3 is such a "worst case scenario" for town

gilded kernel
#

yes

#

thats a problem

#

if the worst case is a d2 war

#

thats one hell of a problem

burnt junco
#

it's a worst case, but it's hella unlikely

#

I can't think of a reasonable situation where that just happens

gilded kernel
#

unlikely or not

#

its still possible

#

and why should it be

#

you can only benefit from losing that situation from being possible

#

and on to another reason why this is bad

#

this is legit just bers but ww logic+veteran ability

#

i would very much prefer a bers

burnt junco
#

and conjurer is just deputy but siding coven

gilded kernel
#

bers is way more consistent

gilded kernel
burnt junco
#

saying it's like something isn't an argument

#

that's my point

gilded kernel
#

it literally is here

stable badgeBOT
#

@gilded kernel has leveled up! (60 ➜ 61)

levelup.png
gilded kernel
#

this is meant to be a replacement for bers

#

you absolutely should compare them

burnt junco
#

a potential replacement

gilded kernel
#

no no

burnt junco
#

similar to Warlock and Soul Collector

gilded kernel
#

a replacement

#

yeah and warlock and this have the exact same issue

#

they dont fucking add anything new or good for apoc

#

warlock forces town to stall which punishes town for playing around apoc well

#

this is just a bers with broken legs

burnt junco
#

no n4 rampage

gilded kernel
#

who gives a shit about rampage

burnt junco
#

meaning clerics/crusaders can protect people even if Profiteer has two kills

gilded kernel
#

it transforms either way

burnt junco
#

when bers gets two kills, TPs are incentivized to stay home

gilded kernel
#

theyre incentivised to chain

#

exodia dude

burnt junco
#

with Profiteer, there's no exodia needed

#

it isn't better bers

#

also roleblocking a profiteer with two kills is as effective as when it has one or zero kills

gilded kernel
#

i said its bers eith broken legs

gilded kernel
signal karma
#

This legit can just become n2 war, the fuck

burnt junco
#

pretty sure you can't roleblock a two kill bers

gilded kernel
#

you can

burnt junco
#

you can?

gilded kernel
#

yes.

#

do you not read rolecards

burnt junco
#

I assume Rampage means you kill roleblockers

signal karma
#

No?

gilded kernel
#

...

#

what

#

WHAT?

signal karma
#

Rampage is a type of attack???

gilded kernel
#

WHAT LOOPY LAND HAVE I WALKED INTO

signal karma
#

I already regret talking in here

burnt junco
#

assumed that to be the case since the other roles with rampage kill their roleblockers

gilded kernel
#

they literally have a clause and unique ways on doing it

burnt junco
#

my fault

#

regardless, even with the potential for d2 war, since it's highly unlikely I don't think that's a major concern

gilded kernel
#

again, should be

eternal valley
#

no it's not, if it's something that happens once every 20 games, its not a concern, because then vet is also problematic, which no one thinks it's the case

gilded kernel
#

vet literally is problematic tho

burnt junco
gilded kernel
#

its just its been around so long people stopped caring

gilded kernel
#

why not make it 0

burnt junco
#

1 in 20 is stupid high, and having that 1 in 400 chance sounds fine to me.

gilded kernel
#

again why not 0

#

if its so unneeded

burnt junco
#

is bodyguard also problematic?

eternal valley
#

Because the game needs RNG, or else why have roles at all?

burnt junco
#

veteran

#

bodyguard

gilded kernel
#

bg is a 1f1

burnt junco
#

bodyguard can randomly go on someone and result in them dying

gilded kernel
#

this is uncapped kills

burnt junco
#

screwing over apoc from n2

eternal valley
#

literally all tks, BG and trapper, marshall pros and jailor and throw in ret as well are problematic with rei's philosophy

gilded kernel
burnt junco
gilded kernel
eternal valley
#

your own words

gilded kernel
#

they dont have uncapped kpower outside of vet

gilded kernel
eternal valley
#

since when does vet have uncapped kill power

gilded kernel
eternal valley
#

no it can't

gilded kernel
#

it literally can

eternal valley
#

no it cant

gilded kernel
#

theres no limit to how many people it kills

eternal valley
#

its literally impossoble

burnt junco
#

solo berserker can kill 12 in one night

oblique rapids
#

yes it can
obviously its never going to without being staged but it has uncapped KPN

eternal valley
#

unless everyone is sheriff visiting the same person

gilded kernel
eternal valley
#

that's not stupid though

oblique rapids
#

anyway hold on let me actually read this role before i jump into a discussion

gilded kernel
#

its supposed to be a faction mate

#

not an nk

eternal valley
#

bro apoc has 2 nukes.

oblique rapids
#

oh its medusa

eternal valley
#

and you worry about a buildup rampage

oblique rapids
#

but tos1 medusa

burnt junco
#

yaeh

#

basically

gilded kernel
#

and apoc just suck anyways

burnt junco
#

thought TOS1 dusa was a fine alt for war

oblique rapids
#

i will comment no further because I am extremely biased against PGOs (aka veteran and tos1 medusa)

eternal valley
#

the only rampage that I have a problem is is WW, since it's really annoying when WW throws the game to nuke the TPLO

gilded kernel
#

thats literally reportable tho

#

also wws rampage is its gimmick

#

the fact 2 other roles have it

#

should be the problem

oblique rapids
#

despite what many would tell you, yes it is throwing to purposefully lose as a solo evil

#

have had people falsely claim they were tos1 judges to tell me im wrong about this 😭

burnt junco
#

werewolf going on TPLO expecting no bodyguards or trappers doesn't sound like throwing though

#

if they're doing it specifically to die, that's another thing

oblique rapids
#

that isn't
purposefully going on them to die is

burnt junco
#

yeah

eternal valley
#

going on a TPLO should have an expectation of a BG at least

oblique rapids
#

in base tos2 it's a 50/50 shot per tp slot of a tp that can counter attack you
in modded it's 40%

#

so it's annoyingly easy to claim it was a gamble

eternal valley
#

I wish that rampages had some other form of counterplay

#

because TP getting punished for going on TPLO d2 is unhealthy

obsidian fulcrum
#

(part of why mayor sucks)

oblique rapids
obsidian fulcrum
oblique rapids
#

it's optimal to not always pick the obvious target anyway but lookout and trapper still exist so

#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

eternal valley
#

but TP literally exists to protect said power roles to not lose the game in the next 2 days

#

because power roles are SIGNIFICANTLY weaker when TP isnt there

obsidian fulcrum
#

wait what

#

no?

eternal valley
#

cuz none of them except mon have defense

obsidian fulcrum
#

power roles arent actually any weaker if a TP exists or not

eternal valley
#

yes they are

obsidian fulcrum
#

it just makes them easier to kill (if a tp claim exists but is fake)

eternal valley
#

a power role cant do the power thing if they are dead

obsidian fulcrum
#

if the NE claimed TP but the TP slot is dead

oblique rapids
#

it depends on what you look at
jailor absolutely isn't weaker if TP aren't there because they have no need to go public to use their role

obsidian fulcrum
#

the power role isnt any weaker

oblique rapids
#

mayor and prosecutor are based around having to survive while being public to make full use of their ability, yes

obsidian fulcrum
oblique rapids
#

but even then?

obsidian fulcrum
#

prosecutor is honestly better staying hidden

eternal valley
#

but d2 rampages with no warning are dumb

burnt junco
#

regarding my post, though, I think having an "apoc veteran" counterpart to berserker, which is "red vigilante" is a fine alt

obsidian fulcrum
#

apoc veteran theoretically wont work because metas

eternal valley
#

because if a WW nukes a TPLO probably 2 TPs, 1 LO and maybe one psy/seer are dead that night

#

that's 4 town dead

#

and they already lost maj

oblique rapids
#

just dont do tplo

#

like flat out
it's that easy

eternal valley
#

but if you dont do TPLO coven just kills the important role

burnt junco
oblique rapids
obsidian fulcrum
#

with no real downside in apoc focused modes

burnt junco
#

bers has no real downsides as well

eternal valley
#

doesn't bers just need 2 kills and this needs 3?

oblique rapids
#

anyway this role
ignoring my dislike of pgo I don't think it plays out much differently from bers

#

bers needs 3

obsidian fulcrum
#

yes but no N1

#

so d5 war

#

this is d4 war guaranteed

oblique rapids
#

this has no n1

obsidian fulcrum
#

maybe faster

eternal valley
#

this has a n1

oblique rapids
#

if it doesnt hit a bombard n1

obsidian fulcrum
#

i do not remember it not having a n1 attack'

#

edited moment

eternal valley
#

oh

oblique rapids
#

it says deactivated on non-full moon so

eternal valley
#

nvm tehn

oblique rapids
#

no n1 or n3

#

so it can lowroll and be worse than bers

eternal valley
#

this should have a n3

obsidian fulcrum
#

yeah so alert n1/n3

#

it can lowroll and be worse bers or d2 war

#

yeah no

#

that doesnt particularly sound good

graceful lagoon
burnt junco
#

d2 war is nigh impossible with meta

obsidian fulcrum
obsidian fulcrum
#

look at warlock

burnt junco
signal karma
burnt junco
#

if warlock wasn't added, I don't see this coming into the game ever

obsidian fulcrum
#

this role is a literal swingset

#

💀

signal karma
#

This role is the whole playground

burnt junco
#

I personally prefer this role over Warlock

#

in terms of being in the game

signal karma
#

This is still swingy as hell

#

Also confirmation bias

burnt junco
signal karma
#

I'm more just mad at Denver for doing this stupid bit of being the suggestions protector or whatever he's doing

obsidian fulcrum
#

suggestion vigilante moment

burnt junco
obsidian fulcrum
#

well for good reasons

burnt junco
#

so I see his standpoint

obsidian fulcrum
#

its not like he goes out and dislikes every suggestion for no reason

signal karma
#

Tbf fucker has a type of balancing

obsidian fulcrum
#

well balance is important

signal karma
#

Like I wouldn't say they are the best balancer but they aren't the worse, it's like a 6.5 out of 10 balancing

obsidian fulcrum
#

well he has made a lot of suggestions

signal karma
#

Some good some bad some mid some questionable

burnt junco
#

If Profiteer has no armor while Bombarding, would that balance things out?

obsidian fulcrum
#

no

#

still swing + most things wont attack it

signal karma
#

It still doesn't fix the fact you can get an instant war

burnt junco
#

how about

#

Bombard can only count for one kill

#

even if it multikills

obsidian fulcrum
#

still no

signal karma
#

Then it's worthless

obsidian fulcrum
#

you just made it swingier but worse

#

at that point just have bers

signal karma
#

Worthless swing

burnt junco
#

how about max 2 then?

signal karma
#

Still swing

obsidian fulcrum
#

no

burnt junco
#

still swing but it's fine now, no?

obsidian fulcrum
#

no

signal karma
#

But at least it isn't an instant war

burnt junco
#

d3 war at worst

obsidian fulcrum
#

swing is never fine

#

d4*

burnt junco
#

*d4 yeah

#

no d3

signal karma
#

Swing isn't a good thing for tos

burnt junco
#

two kills n1 and the guaranteed n2

signal karma
#

That's still better than normal jugg

#

Berserker

obsidian fulcrum
#

no it isnt

burnt junco
#

keeps the swing from d2-d5 to d3-d5

obsidian fulcrum
#

it can swing to no kills n1/n3

burnt junco
#

either one day later or one day earlier

#

or on the same day

signal karma
#

To get to war it is better potentially

burnt junco
#

there's also the potential of just using all charges, missing, and getting a hella late war

obsidian fulcrum
#

yes.

#

basically majority of games

burnt junco
#

how about

signal karma
#

There is this nk role I have that might work as a berserker alt but I generally don't do suggestions anymore

burnt junco
#

no bombard n1

obsidian fulcrum
#

why

burnt junco
#

but the three kills count

obsidian fulcrum
#

you are making it worse

burnt junco
#

you know in SSB for the Wii U

obsidian fulcrum
#

what the fuck?

signal karma
#

What

obsidian fulcrum
#

how is the SSB for the wii U related

#

💀

burnt junco
#

Super Smash Bros

signal karma
#

You are dead to me if you say what I think your about to say

obsidian fulcrum
#

thats

burnt junco
#

they have this mechanic with the alt attacks

obsidian fulcrum
#

im going to die from confusion

#

dude

#

i dont care

#

this isnt smash bros

burnt junco
#

you can change the special attacks to be weaker but faster, or stronger but slower

obsidian fulcrum
#

thats not related

#

why?

#

ITS A DIFFERENT GAME

signal karma
#

Why is this being brought up

burnt junco
#

yeah

obsidian fulcrum
#

A DIFFERENT TYPE OF GAME

willow tangle
signal karma
#

It's a fucking different genre

obsidian fulcrum
burnt junco
obsidian fulcrum
#

huge L

signal karma
willow tangle
#

my point still stands

burnt junco
obsidian fulcrum
#

no

burnt junco
#

or use the alerts and get an earlier war

obsidian fulcrum
#

it can be swingy

willow tangle
obsidian fulcrum
#

as shit

burnt junco
#

potentially

#

maybe no n1 Bombard makes it fine

signal karma
#

Yeah this is a terrible idea

willow tangle
#

acutally wait no yeah

#

anyway

#

the problem with bombard

#

is that

#

well

signal karma
#

There is no salvaging

willow tangle
#

bersker needs 3 kills

signal karma
#

There is only swing

willow tangle
#

he can only get 1 at a time

#

you can get all 3 kills at once

#

d3 war

burnt junco
#

it's possible

#

but it's unlikely

signal karma
#

Uh, tp/lo claims?

burnt junco
#

it's an alert not a rampage

obsidian fulcrum
#

yes

signal karma
#

Ok and?

obsidian fulcrum
#

you have to pull the greatest vetbait then look sus af

burnt junco
#

if you look sus as fuck, you get hung

#

simple as

obsidian fulcrum
#

then you will never transform reliably

#

because why does veteran suck>

#

same reasons

signal karma
#

Your wording is shit

burnt junco
#

then don't use the ability, unless if you think you can get away with it

obsidian fulcrum
#

so i should be worse bers n3

burnt junco
#

worse bers with alert

#

that's the whole shtick

#

make bers worse but give it vet powers

#

simple as

#

preventing Bombard n1 could be a solution

#

also capping kills earned at 2 could also be something

#

or maybe even both

#

intention is to get War on d5, +- 1 day for the most part

#

play safe and do basic attacks, or play risky and go for the alert?

#

that's up to the user

#

it's basically "you can't attack n3 and can't kill neutrals" for "you can alert"

gilded kernel
#

and thats shiet

gilded kernel
gilded kernel
signal karma
#

Maybe 7.5?

#

You have made some bad suggestions

gilded kernel
#

tbf either i was high or was trying out something insane

signal karma
#

That sounds about right

gilded kernel
#

or just wanted feedback to fully flesh out ideas that i pulled out

#

thats all my recent reworks are