Voodoo Master Change

[mental prairie]

This is based on something suggested by @tawdry wagon, I wanted to get people's opinions because I think it is a good idea but possibly flawed.

Voodoo Master (Coven Utility -> Coven Deception)

None
None

Silence (♾️)

• Choose a player each night, they cannot talk tomorrow and can't vote.
• Your target knows they are Silenced they have no idea they are silenced, but nobody sees their messages
• You cannot choose the same player two nights in a row.

Pros:

• Removes the vote blocking of VM, which is found to be problematic by many as it can lead to Coven gaining majority faster and stop town acting in crucial moments, a 5v4 basically becomes a 4v4 and town can't do anything.
• Makes VM much more deceptive and a silent threat. People will eventually figure its in the game, but there is always that element of doubt, and nobody knows who is silenced until later.

Cons:

• Could accidentally lead to a meta of people spamming until others pay attention to them, to check if they are silenced or not.

I wanna see what people think of this, do you think the pros outweigh the cons with this idea? Is it even a good change in the first place?

[tawdry wagon]

It's silent and silenced

[mental prairie]

Gugh oops did I put something wrong

[tawdry wagon]

No

[mental prairie]

Oh nvm LUL

[tawdry wagon]

https://tenor.com/view/oprah-oprah-winfrey-meghan-markle-meghan-silent-gif-2545608622763143604

[mental prairie]

[errant breach]

[tawdry wagon]

The pug underbite 😭

[mental prairie]

Okay possible change we instead make it so Chat Gpt says stuff for the player inst- where yall goin

[fathom cloak]

hm

[errant breach]

we moving blackmailer back to C tier with this one

🗣️

[fathom cloak]

my issue with it is the spamming meta

[mental prairie]

yeah same

The thing is it is also possible people will figure

it's not VM and not spam

But I don't know it's hard to say

[errant breach]

what about silent votes

would those work?

[mental prairie]

Uh

Prob not

[fathom cloak]

my solution to fix vm was vote locking and making it cpow

but it still crazy stronk

[mental prairie]

That would confirm people are silenced, or you'd have to do it like current VM and nothing would be different

[errant breach]

no like no one can see the vote

but its there

[mental prairie]

Yes but the issue is then you can't fake silenced bc people would be able to tell

If the vote passes with 1 less vote

And that confirms people as not coven

[dark cairn]

so does the silenced see their own messages?

[mental prairie]

Yes

[dark cairn]

very nice

[mental prairie]

They wouldn't know they are silenced at all

But nothing they say goes through

[fathom cloak]

no vote totals would cure it

[mental prairie]

uhh ?

What like anon voting?

[fathom cloak]

no

like nobody knows the total number of votes against a player

[mental prairie]

uerm

[errant breach]

that’s gonna be

[mental prairie]

thats a central game mechanic

[fathom cloak]

yeah

[mental prairie]

Yeah we shouldn't change that

[tawdry wagon]

I don't like that

[mental prairie]

Scumreading on voting patterns is one of the few things tos has that works well

[tawdry wagon]

Voteblocking isn't a mechanic Coven needs

[fathom cloak]

i mean you can see whos voting for who

you just dont get the little number

[tawdry wagon]

"Someone voted for #player"
That just outs you

[fathom cloak]

not like that

[mental prairie]

That still doesn't work

I get how u mean

But people can just count

[fathom cloak]

oh yeah true

[mental prairie]

"Oh it says in chat only 3 people voted for x, but we needed 4 and it still passed. They are really silenced"

And it would be annoying to have to count for one change

[fathom cloak]

good point

[neat turret]

Wasn't VM on like, DW or Illu usefulness levels in the beta before they buffed it to block votes?

[fathom cloak]

it was worse bm yes

[neat turret]

I'd say that being able to lock in 1 vote, but not be able to change it afterwards, would be a fair compromise.

[fathom cloak]

yeah but it would be really strong still

thats an issue

[surreal pivot]

spam vote

[fathom cloak]

that too

its hard to make silence mechanics be subtle

[tawdry wagon]

I think this a problem generally than just with Voodoo Master

[dark cairn]

spam voting shouldn't really be a thing in general, not just while silenced

[errant breach]

what if you had like limited votes

[tawdry wagon]

Yeah maybe secretly preventing you from changing your vote

[neat turret]

Oh my, ain't that exactly what I said?

[dapper lynx]

so do people sending chat messages think the message went through but no one can see them?

[fathom cloak]

ye

[dapper lynx]

i actually kinda like this

i'd definitely take it over current VM anyway lol

[fathom cloak]

aked my friend who knows nothing about tos about how to balance silence

his verdict was to overhaul vm

the problem is that his idea was roleblocking but pois already odes that

[spark sky]

it wasn't that good, but it was better than that

silencing someone isn't necessarily weak

people just see vm with the vote block now and assume that it'd be hot garbage without it

no matter what else is done

[slate arch]

I kinda like this

[spark sky]

something like that should probably be added to prevent people from spamming if nobody seems to see their messages

[eager blade]

I'm confused. It says they won't be told they're silenced, but it'll still be obvious because they won't be able to send messages.

[mental prairie]

They can, but nobody sees their messages

[eager blade]

hm

never said that

[mental prairie]

Yeah sorry I thought it would be implied

[raven cedar]

blackmailer from tos

but slightly better

[mental prairie]

I changed it to specify

[fathom cloak]

hm i got an idea for a vm overhaul

my friend inspired me with that roleblocking vm

[frail pivot]

Can’t wait for this to be everyone say your number check

[eager blade]

real

[spark sky]

people aren't doing this with vm now

you could figure out someone is either silenced or faking it pretty fast regardless

[tawdry wagon]

Oh...

[broken wagon]

Ok, but it'd revive the spam vote strategy.

[spark sky]

there should probably be something for that

like it locking in the silenced player's vote without telling them

or something

[mental prairie]

This is the problem with the idea though

Every single solution also encourages a really annoying counter-meta to counteract it

[broken wagon]

Probably giving the silenced player a delay vote

If they want to change votes or try to spam votes, there are 5 seconds of delay

But idk if it is possible to code

[broken wagon]

I think it is still punishing, but slightly below the current voodoo

If someone misclick the vote, it's over.

It also makes the silenced player obvious. They could just stick vote on someone to say they're silenced.

[warm spoke]

its the silent silence

[broken wagon]

It doesn't matter, people would still know if they're silenced.

If no one replies to you, you know for sure you're silenced.

[onyx granite]

The spamming part ruins the design sadly

[mental prairie]

Wtf when did I suggest this LMFAO

[onyx granite]

That, and the fact that a meta will inevitably develop that goes somewhat like:

“Am I silenced”

[mental prairie]

Ohhh I remember

[onyx granite]

And then seeing if people respond no

[mental prairie]

yeah we came to that conclusion on this I think

It encourages spamming yeah sadly

If it didn't it could work

I think this would be too frustrating to play against though

[onyx granite]

I have an idea for a VM rework

But I can’t post it

Because my discord keeps crashing

[mental prairie]

Bruh whaa

Discord sucks

[onyx granite]

It’s a common issue apparently

I’m using mobile discord rn

Because it only affects PC

[mental prairie]

Discord forums are buggy yeah

[onyx granite]

You should respond to my dm idea btw

[mental prairie]

Oh right!

[neat turret]

Wasn't VM one of the worst CU roles in the game until it got the vote blocking? Cuz people could just spam-vote at the voting phase so people knew they were Silenced, and completely invalidate their impact.

[mental marsh]

With this, you can speak no one can hear it

Wait how would whispers work?

[mental prairie]

But they don't know they are silenced, until later on in the day. VM just existing at all would cause lots of confusion and chaos across the town

I think it would be perfectly fine strength wise

The real issue with this rework is that it kind of encourages an unhealthy meta as counterplay

Which is basically that everyone spams until someone replies

[dark cairn]

similar to banshee

[orchid hatch]

"Guys can you see my messages??"
*nobody responds*
*uses BMed meta*

I honestly wanted to make a rework where VM is a ventriloquist but it would just be really horrible to play against