vigilante nerf - Blossom

[modest flint]

vigilante

⚔️ 1/3
🛡️ 0/3

Abilities:
Choose to take Justice into your own hand and shoot someone at night.

Shoot (🌕2️⃣)
Visit your target at night dealing a basic attack.
This is a harmful visit.
After you shoot someone you will have to reload.
If you shot another Town member, you will lose all current remaining charges.
(Note: Add temporary's outlaw status for a much more punishing effect)

Attributes:
You Cannot shoot on the first night.

Victory Conditions:
Hang Every criminal and evildoer.

TDLR: reduced down to 2 shots, has to reload between shots, no longer dies but can never shoot again. if misfire

[hushed cypress]

balance

[graceful oracle]

i'd say keep the shots at 3

everything else is good

[modest flint]

no

we are reducing KPN

[red moon]

independent killers should cap at 2 kpotential

[modest flint]

yup

at best this 0.5 kpn

and that is if you have a good shot and don't random fire

[bleak herald]

2 or 3 shots, either way the kill power got reduced do to the need to reload, either way, not getting hangmanned cause you misfired or got witched is really nice.

[modest flint]

no because i am trying to reduce max kills

to 2

[red moon]

yeah

[modest flint]

so i don't want this to have a third shot

[red moon]

2 kills should be the max

[modest flint]

also my next suggestion

might be bouncer crus

[bleak herald]

fair enough, i don't care either way, i just like not getting hangmanned

[modest flint]

but i think someone has already done that

[modest flint]

this was made for 2 reasons

1. doesn't make this too punishing

2. without the vigil dying, people can CC vigil shots instead of the vigil getting confirmed via death

opening up more evil claim space

so yeah

[bleak herald]

oh yeah, an evil could now cc the kill if they really need to, or a tt vigi could potentially get away with a "bad shot"

[modest flint]

yeah

so not only does this reduce overall kpn of town

BUT

it also allows for more interesting plays

[bleak herald]

yeah, vigi getting hangmanned was kinda bs, hangman should be reserved for day reveals, if at all.

also jailor just having their key revoked vs vigi getting hanged was also weird.

[modest flint]

i think jailor needs a slight nerf

[red moon]

a lot nerfs

[modest flint]

maybe just reducing the excutes to 2

[modest flint]

tpow is tpow, tpow is only problematic when there are 2+ tpow

although jailor marshal is still a fucking stupidly strong combo

[plush violet]

I think it'd be better if they made secret killers the norm

[bleak herald]

as long as jailor doesn't get hangmanned, that mechanic on accidental night kills is bs, especially cause of witch.

[red moon]

does not change the fact that jailor far outclasses every tpow by way too much of a gap

[modest flint]

honeslty jailor as a tpow is fine, it's just jailor with any other tpow... then maybe like.. mayor????, the game is really in town's favour

[red moon]

the game is already in towns favor just with jailor spawning

[modest flint]

ok jailor isn't that op

[red moon]

it is the strongest role in the whole game

[north lily]

i was shot down for suggesting that because that barely changes anything

[modest flint]

in a good list... yes

[red moon]

and one of those roles its competing against has its ability literally win the game

[red moon]

in any list

[modest flint]

well how would you nerf jailor?

without removing the super-roleblock

[plush violet]

I think jailor is kinda in a position where it basically has to be confirmed for any competent competitive list to function well

[red moon]

by removing the superroleblock

and making it a normal roleblock

[modest flint]

tf would that fix?

wait...

[red moon]

and thats a problem because tos2 wants the other tpows to take the load off jailor

[north lily]

"how often do you see jailor using all 3 of their executes anyway?"

[modest flint]

no that's stupid that you wouldn't be able to jail drunk people

[plush violet]

since it acts as the central power point of the town while the other tpow roles serve mainly as poor executions of an "anchor"

[red moon]

lemme show you my full rework

[modest flint]

k

[bleak herald]

honestly, applying the same vigi nerf of not letting it execute twice in a row could work, so jailor can't wipe out evils so fast.

[modest flint]

btw @red moon why do you both dislike and like your suggestions

[plush violet]

like assuming that the other tpow aren't also poorly designed in their own ways, they have a trend going of being vote manipulation comeback roles

[modest flint]

i have no shame of only liking mine

[plush violet]

meanwhile jailor just feels like raw power for the sake of it

[modest flint]

@worthy edge pin please

[modest flint]

well i mean

monarch

pros

and marshal

were built around voting power

jailor tos1

[red moon]

reserving

[modest flint]

wasn't building around

tpow

at all

[red moon]

because they literally were just that

[modest flint]

either was mayor being a town support

[red moon]

jailor was meant to be towns major leader

[plush violet]

mayor served as a great base for the slot though, with minor changes

[modest flint]

jailor was fucking TK back in tos1 LMAO, and couldn't even be spawned in normally in the TK bucket i swar @red moon

[red moon]

every list was revolving around it

[modest flint]

either you forced in a jailor or it was all any

[red moon]

because it was guaranteed

[modest flint]

in tos1

[plush violet]

jailor probably only slipped in because of its confirmability and then got justified somehow because of it

[modest flint]

it was a TK for the sake of being TK

jailor is Tpow for the sake of being a Tpow

[red moon]

it was a tk because tpow didnt exis5

tpow now exists

[modest flint]

because of how strong it is

[plush violet]

ya, and it fit the tk slot

[modest flint]

no

it was in the tk slot

[red moon]

not why tpow exists

[modest flint]

for code reasons

[plush violet]

meanwhile mayor didn't fit any other slot

[red moon]

it was in the tk slot because it killed

[modest flint]

yeah so town support

mayor was TS

jailor was TK

jailor and mayor are both powerful... so they got removed to tpow in tos2

but the GAP between those 2 power levels...

[red moon]

its in the tpow slot now because its meant to share the burden of leading town with mayor, monarch, pros and marshal

[modest flint]

jesus fucking christ it's big

cough

[red moon]

because who wouldve thought a role that has the upgraded abilities of 4 roles

[plush violet]

jailor literally had to be locked into every list while they just let mayor roam free in the wild

[modest flint]

ok hold

[red moon]

would outclass a role whos entire gimmick was being self confirmed

and also got punished for it

[modest flint]

jailor is
killing
roleblocking
visit-preventing...

uh tf is a the 4th?

[red moon]

night chat

[modest flint]

oh right

[plush violet]

night chat is technically ti

[modest flint]

no

[plush violet]

although I wouldn't say it directly outclasses any ti roles

[red moon]

its superior socialite, vigi, tav, tp

[hidden vault]

it depends on if you count a social role as TI

[modest flint]

by that logic socalite is a ti

[plush violet]

it just kinda sits on a pedestal of its own

[red moon]

jailors night chat is an anon interrogation

[plush violet]

the main usage of jailor's night chat is to pull info from people

[red moon]

socialite is discussion phase 2 thats also toxic

[plush violet]

mostly their claims and wills

[modest flint]

ah so you can either

talk to them and super-roleblock

or kill them

but not both?

[red moon]

yeah

[modest flint]

hm

[red moon]

and theres a cooldown

[modest flint]

make it a suggestion here and link it

[plush violet]

I honestly think that jailor could just be a walking night chat with an execution or 2 and still be a viable tpow role

[red moon]

i did

[modest flint]

then link it

[plush violet]

this is an extremely volatile decision

[red moon]

it spiraled into insults

[modest flint]

instead of screenshotting

oh ffs is it locked?

[red moon]

and any jailor threads get autolocked

[modest flint]

k

[red moon]

so yeah even if i wanted to i cant

[plush violet]

it's like you gotta tell people to be civil around here

[red moon]

very much

and just saying

i do not sling the first insult

[plush violet]

the first insult

so you did sling an insult

or many

[red moon]

yes

i am not above stooping to others levels

[plush violet]

and that's the problem here

[red moon]

would the problem not be the people whose only argument against jailor needing nerfs be slinging insults left and right?

[modest flint]

thanks nunny

[red moon]

its da numget

[hushed cypress]

mf

the whole purpose of this post was to reduce the 3 shots

[hushed cypress]

it is

you're interrogating someone

and you can kill them if they choose not to respond

so they have to

[modest flint]

ok but

the game has said that other roles with night chat

is TS and not TI

[hushed cypress]

fun fact: Socialite does not interrogate people

🙂

[modest flint]

ok it's still a night chat is it not?

[red moon]

socialites night chat does not yield info

its not a private anon chat

[hushed cypress]

Dreamweaver has a night chat, and it's a TI

[red moon]

where 1 person had control

[modest flint]

dreamweaver might aswell be a ti

[red moon]

its the second discussion phase

[glacial hound]

also

[idle olive]

@glacial hound has leveled up! (30 ➜ 31)

[glacial hound]

this nerfs tt vigi heavily

[grave ether]

This is so based

I really like this

The one flaw I see is the push for a night 2 shot over a night 3 shot

[glacial hound]

you basically have to shoot n2

or ur useless for the rest of the game basically

n5 and beyond is legit the game SHOULD be over

[north shell]

Id rather just nuke one shot and not have the reload, Vigi has too high of kill power currently but this makes it really hard to justify certain shots. But vigi really dosent need much its a direct town killing role just give it 2 shots and its probably fine

[modest flint]

yeah

[modest flint]

not really

with the nerfing of KPN

overalll

within coven

honestly a n5 game might not that that uncommon

this was built around #1226163086139068446 ngl and the nerfing overall kpn

ik #1226163086139068446 isn't confirmed

but...

like

it's not not confirmed

if you get what i am saying

[brave schooner]

I like this suggestion

Bump

[worthy edge]

BUMPS ARE ILLEGAL

DELETING THIS POST FOREVER BECAUSE OF THIS (joke)

[brave schooner]

I dare you XD

[fleet crypt]

reload is a bit odd imo because if you dont shoot n2 its hard to shoot your 2nd shot

but vigi desperately needs to lose a bullet

[bleak herald]

i mean, with the reload, vigi having a third wouldn't matter in most cases, not that it should have it, just i doubt it would get fired in 99% of games
n2, n4, n6 n3, n5, n7

[plush violet]

ya, so what's the big idea about bringing it back

vigis would hardly ever use it

so by your account the simple removal of a bullet is hardly a nerf

[bleak herald]

i was just mentioning it.

[next solar]

reloadigi yes

[ornate hill]

I have beef with whoever downvoted this

[north shell]

Yeah as said -1 bullet or reload, double dipping in nerfs ain’t needed imo

[ornate hill]

Honestly I kinda prefer it

Because vigi is most likely gonna random shoot with the 2nd bullet

[north shell]

Balancing for bad players is dumb

To better articulate what I mean though it makes justifying shots against certain roles very hard

[slate sandal]

No way we nerf vigilante brooo

[north shell]

Why shoot a jester when you lose a bullet and have to reload especially if they vest

Again I like the idea of quelling Vig power but I don’t think it needs both

[ornate hill]

Excuse me but you think 3 extra town kills is balanced?

[plush violet]

man, if only we could focus on nerfing jailor alongside this, am I right guys???

[ornate hill]

I have PTSD from jailor nerf suggestion posts

[plush violet]

any unironic jailor posts would immediately be deleted without question

just in a preemptive act to prevent the vitriol from spilling like someone popped a hole in an inflatable pool

[ornate hill]

I don't understand how a single role getting nerfed gets so god damn controversial

[plush violet]

I honestly still have yet to really see where the "jailor needs to be op" advocates are coming from

it seems like they just degrade into getting angry

[ornate hill]

The argument I keep seeing is that, oh but removing a execution wouldn't do much so we should just not

Like, what

[plush violet]

I wouldn't have much of a problem with removing an execution

[ornate hill]

It 100% needs more

[plush violet]

but it's a bandage fix that seemingly only tries to make it not directly reign over vigi

only slightly flicking its carry potential

[red moon]

their argument for jailor not needing nerfs

is nostalgia

[plush violet]

and with this vigi nerf, jailor would absolutely dominate over vigi

[red moon]

nostalgia holds this game back

[red moon]

theyd love it

[ornate hill]

I'm going to do another rework post like I did for jinx with like 3-4 jailor reworks

[plush violet]

like the reason to have a vigi over a jailor goes from "it's not unique I guess" to "uuuuhhhh"

[ornate hill]

And watch as all our war breaks loose

[red moon]

please dont

[ornate hill]

If you want to, you can DM me some jailor reworks for me to add

[ornate hill]

I want to see hell break loose

[red moon]

i dont

i will ping nuggy when you post it

[ornate hill]

It'll be contained trust

[red moon]

it wont

[worthy edge]

If stuff gets out of hand I'll lock it

[modest flint]

well just don't let it get out of hand

;3

[modest flint]

gonna explain more?

[worthy edge]

🪄 no misbehaving

I did it

[ashen crescent]

if jailor gets 2 executes

remove hangman from the game

[red moon]

jailor doesnt even get hangman

[ashen crescent]

yeah but for Tk's

Jailor should be at 2 executes, all killing roles should have a similar punishment

[worthy edge]

Jailor won't get hangman

Tuba made it clear he doesnt want hangman on tpows

[red moon]

yeah the kpotential of all kill capables should cap at 2

[plush violet]

the changes applied to this should probably be a basis for a jailor nerf

2 executions with an execution cooldown

[ashen crescent]

not asking for that

i dont think anyone should get hangman

[worthy edge]

Ah yeah no I'm literally blind apparently LMFAO

[plush violet]

deputy is in desperate need of a rework

[ashen crescent]

i think i did say if vigilante and pros get hangman then jailor should ages ago in vanilla but a lot of people took that as i was pro hangman.

But no i think hangman is bad, I just want all direct killing roles to have the same punishment, I hope hangman is just removed in general

[worthy edge]

The way Dep is designed rn it needs it 100%

[ashen crescent]

Hangman creates more swing and punishment by killing 2 townies

Misfiring one town and being citizen is enough, still impactful for messing up but not game ending

[plush violet]

I have made the strawman argument before of "if these roles need hangman so much to not randomly shoot and throw games, then why is jailor's guilt effective?"

[ashen crescent]

I feel like people will make more yolo plays with hangman

if you mess up who cares you can go next

[plush violet]

and then that usually devolves into saying "well then just give jailor hangman haha" completely missing the point of what I said

[ashen crescent]

people dont wanna be stuck with no abilities

[plush violet]

ya

it's probably a thrower's favorite mechanic

like they get to cause the town to lose basically instantly AND they can instantly move to the next game with no leaver penalty

[ashen crescent]

most likely why you see stupid d2/n2 plays

"gambler pros" yolo executing people today lol, it's so common and stupid

[plush violet]

but if you randomly execute as jailor, you have to stick around and wallow in your failures

[half sandal]

Just shot a Bers in AJR, feels good man. 😎

[modest flint]

hangman just

sucks anyway

for vigil it you can't cc a dead person

for pros means evils got a 2f1 if they tricked them

(that got removed)

for deputy is makes sense since it's already a self-confirmer (but deputy is problematic for it's own reason)

[modest flint]

remember it's a day kill so no medusa or enchanter

[worthy edge]

I love how in the reveal trailer when they showed off all the changes they made to try and improve gameplay like "reworked invest" and "removed chain roleblocks" they also showed off "replaced guilt with hangman mechanic" but I dont get what the goal was with it like, it didnt fix anyone's problems with guilt it honestly made everything a bit worse ngl lol

Guilt was fine imo

[modest flint]

wasn't guilt jsut the same thing but at night

[plush violet]

probably removing hints of suicide

[modest flint]

ok and? it's town of salem not town of piss babies

[plush violet]

but they could've very well reflavored it without a big unremovable cutscene

like they "fled the town in shame" or something

[worthy edge]

Eeehhh it made a big diff tbh

You could actually bait evils into killing you as a dying vigilante

With hidden killers guilt couldve been interesting

[modest flint]

eh

@worthy edge still don't want guilt

other than deputy because it would be really funny

this would change litterally nothing

other than the deputy has to kill themselves instead of being hanged

[fleet crypt]

I prefer 2 bullets to adding reload

Simple explanation

I’d rather vigi not be able to kill thrice ever

[ornate hill]

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1228427528574861472

[ashen crescent]

REWORKED INVEST!!!

look how that turnt out

[modest flint]

@slate sandal @hexed solstice @half sandal

can you explain the dislike

i just wanna know what you dislike about it

[half sandal]

I just usually put a dislike on your posts, lol. ( )

Fr though, having BOTH of these nerfs at once is a bit heavy handed, especially when roles like Trick or ESPECIALLY Vet can get either 3 or...possibly 14 kills without much effort, which kinda makes this a crap base role (similar to Cleric for TP). Having only one of them (2 shots or a reload mechanic) would probably be better to nerf it, but still keep it relevant among the other TK.

If you're willing to nerf the other TK to keep it in line with this, fine, but I'm usually not one for EXTREME nerfs like this.

[modest flint]

1. ok that's jsut fucking rude
2. one the hand, yeah i would make it so it's quite heavy handed
3. i also want veteran nerfed but i am not sure how to
4. just adding the reload mechanic isn't enough, it neds to be 2 shots
5. i am also winning to nerf the other tks

again this is meant to be with the overall direction of btos2

which is the massive reduction of KPN

lol complience killers fuckers with this so hard

trickster we can just nerf to just having 2 counter attacks

[half sandal]

1. 
2. I guess so, just constantly seeing nerfs for everyone gets a bit grating after a while.
3. I was thinking about a potential "Trampling" mechanic, where 4+ visits on the Vet will immediately RB them.
4. I'm fine with there being only 2 shots, but the reload mechanic on TOP of it is a bit much. Maybe a reload could happen each night that you DON'T shoot, meaning that you can hold off for the first 2 nights so that you can blast on N3 and 4?
5. Fair enough, IG.

If CK doesn't have Vigi banned, I'm gonna SCREAM.

[modest flint]

if what dosen't have vigil banned?

explain?

[half sandal]

Compliant Killers, the modifier with all NK being on a team...I think you know the problem, lol.

[modest flint]

oh yeah no

also i been using ComK but yeah

[red moon]

vigilante is broken

its able to delete 75% of coven for free

[hexed solstice]

i feel like vigi is kinda fine the way it is. normally you won't get 3 shots anyway, and i think hangman puts a lot more necessary pressure on the role. this isn't terrible by any means and I wouldn't mind too much if it was made a thing, i just prefer the current version

[modest flint]

ok

quick

no it's not

[red moon]

hangman only makes vigi more swingy

[modest flint]

vigil is powerful

[red moon]

and only increases the skill floor

[modest flint]

unironically

[red moon]

vigi is literally broken

[modest flint]

it can kill 3/4 coven

that's powerful

also the hang-man just makes it so you can't claim vigil that shot

because guess what

they are dead

i know deaths got moved to the end but

yeah

[red moon]

yeah it makes it impossible to fake vigi in secret killers

[modest flint]

or jsut

fake vigi

ever

[ornate hill]

I fucking despise the argument of "oh you rarely ever get to shoot all 3 bullets so we should keep all 3 of them" buddy, we are trying to lower the power ceiling it can have

[north lily]

that's the main argument people used against my "reduce jailor executes to 2" suggestion in official server

[red moon]

and the counterpoint to that is

'so whats wrong with changing one value?'

'if its so nonconsequential'

[ornate hill]

They also always pull the non argument of "the game is already over if jailor can use their last exe anyways"

[north lily]

yeah that was another thing

and the only other argument used against me was that reducing jailor's executes to 2 will make the people who like current jailor angry that it got nerfed at all, while people who do want jailor nerfed would think it's not enough and be angry that the nerf was so freaking small

[ornate hill]

Give me more shit and I'll make it one execution

[half sandal]

Kidnapper:

[slate sandal]

i think vigi rn is fine, but that's my opinion

[plush violet]

ya, it's kind of a negative middle ground

where it's a change to jailor, but it's also not a major enough change to jailor

[slate sandal]

vigi is just basic attack so its not really powerful as you cant kill NKs or apocs, but you can wipe out coven if ur good at scumreading. i dont think nerfing it is gonna do much

[plush violet]

so you don't really please anyone

[plush violet]

it'll make it weaker

[red moon]

vigi is powerful tho

its attack isnt yeah

[plush violet]

also basic attack isn't necessarily weak

[red moon]

but its strong as a role

[red moon]

^

[slate sandal]

vigi is fine

[red moon]

only neuts have def

[plush violet]

like you still click on someone that doesn't have defense and they die

[slate sandal]

u can kill coven/jester/pirate

and what else

[plush violet]

nothing about that is ever weak

[slate sandal]

and yeah, town

[red moon]

all of coven

except for cl

[plush violet]

the main evil threat and a threat that you can't lynch

sounds good to me

[red moon]

yeah

[slate sandal]

its 1 shot per night, i doubt you even survive before getting all 3 shots on point

[red moon]

its a lot of roles

[red moon]

so?

[plush violet]

I don't see why something is weak just because it isn't anti-nk

[red moon]

1 kill is a big enough impact?

[slate sandal]

not if u hit a town

[red moon]

coven losing 25% of their team

[red moon]

skill issue

[slate sandal]

its high risk high reward

[red moon]

legit fucking skill issue

[plush violet]

if you never get 3 shots off, what's the point of having 3 shots?

why not nerf it?

[slate sandal]

not never

but its rare

[plush violet]

might as well balance around the edge case, right?

[slate sandal]

3 shots is fine

[plush violet]

but why

[slate sandal]

it can kill 3 coven within 3 nights

but thats only if u have a good read

on them

[plush violet]

also, for the record, in coven ranked, none of the evils have defense against vigi

[slate sandal]

hm

[plush violet]

meaning it can kill 3/5 of them with very little ways to deal with it

[slate sandal]

coven ranked is a different story

[red moon]

coven ranked is the list you balance around

[plush violet]

obviously vigi kinda blows in taa and modes with apoc

so 3 shots there is "fine"

[slate sandal]

not really

[plush violet]

but in sole coven modes it's ridiculous

[slate sandal]

it counts for all btos lists

if vigi got nerfed

[red moon]

yes thats how nerfing a role works

but we balance around cr

[plush violet]

we balance around the game as a whole

curtis has stated and posted that cr is basically never played, so I don't see it being the center of the game

but it should be very much considered

especially if they wanna separate it from casual, which I hope they do

[slate sandal]

dep has only one shot but its powerful, having 2 basic shots for vigi isnt gonna make the role any better since it's one shot every night

[red moon]

there should be a list you specifically balance the roles around

[plush violet]

you REALLY like to talk about the difference in attack level

it hardly matters outside of apoc modes and taa

and vigi is banned in apoc modes so there you go

in coven modes the difference in attack value doesn't mean much

[slate sandal]

I mean both of them are TK right

[plush violet]

also yes deputy is broken

[slate sandal]

you gotta compare

[plush violet]

but that's less because of its attack level and more because of how it works

vigi is debatably better as of now though

but both of them should be weaker

and that's kinda the point here

make independent killing roles weaker

this change isn't being made in a vacuum, there's an overall goal for the direction of the game going on here

[slate sandal]

I see your point

but making it 2 shots instead of 3 isnt really gonna make it weak

[plush violet]

like the coven receiving a pretty hefty nerf through #1226163086139068446

[plush violet]

ya, that's not the point

it's really just to make it less strong

[red moon]

the goal isnt to make it weak

[plush violet]

like this idea would still be a pretty strong role, it'd just be weaker than vigi is now

[red moon]

its to make it not broken

[slate sandal]

jailor is broken already

and its kinda funny

[red moon]

jailor is broken

and its a problem

[modest flint]

stop talking about jailor here

[red moon]

he brought it up

[ornate hill]

Ok then, what rolelist do we balance around

[red moon]

coven ranked

[ornate hill]

Not asking you

I'm asking athelix

[half sandal]

🤢

[red moon]

its the main list coven, pariah and town premiere in

[half sandal]

Still, 98% of players detest that gamemode.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=r7l0Rq9E8MY&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2F&embeds_referring_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE&feature=emb_title

[ornate hill]

Buddy, it's still the main default list, so it should 100% be balanced around

[half sandal]

I was actually not that off, lmao.

[ornate hill]

So you're an all any balancer

So your opinion is automatically invalid

[half sandal]

I hate TAA as well, lol. My favorite mode is JR.

[plush violet]

what is this black and white line of thinking

"you don't want to balance around the hardly played 'definitive balanced mode' so you must be an all any balancer"

[ornate hill]

No no, the logic was that they brought up statistics

[plush violet]

can we not just balance around the whole game

[ornate hill]

Since TAA is #1 I just assumed they were trying to balance around the #1 slot

[ornate hill]

I mean, that's kinda what I want

[plush violet]

like the jackal returns and tt modes are also meant to be balanced

[ornate hill]

But I'm not gonna do a change for all any that will fuck up normal lists

[worthy edge]

I think things should ideally be balanced around an even ratio of evils to town tho

Not even but like

Fair balance

thats the word

[plush violet]

ya

[ornate hill]

So ranked

[worthy edge]

~5 evils to ~10 townies

[ornate hill]

Which has the optimal 10-5

[worthy edge]

Correct it does

I'm ngl its a bit of a terminology moment

[plush violet]

then again the (not absolutely insane) tt modes are 10v5s

[worthy edge]

When you say "balance around ranked" it makes stuff like this happen tho lol

[ornate hill]

Tbf those statistics are bs atm

Since the rolelist just got unlocked yesterday

[plush violet]

and the jackal returns modes are 9v6s with an asterisk

[ornate hill]

So of course it's at 1%

[worthy edge]

CR was getting like 6 plays a week tho tbf

Before it got yeeted then risen again

[ornate hill]

Yeah fair enough

[plush violet]

I would think that those statistics were taken after they re-introduced the list

so that it's actually fair and all

[worthy edge]

The stats arent entirely reflective of how many people want to play the modes but

They aren't entirely far off either

Majority of people who actually play consistently want chaos modes

[plush violet]

it truly sucks

[worthy edge]

Well

Nobody who wants the competitive modes actually play so

Not shocking

[half sandal]

And that SS "rebranding" did absolutely NOTHING for it either, so trying to balance specifically around that and not other more balanced yet fun gamemodes (JR, TT, etc) is a tad bit silly.

[fleet crypt]

jackal returns is jackal ranked with RN instead of NP

because apparently set lists are scary

I think the possibility of an NK is annoying but 🤷

[plush violet]

I think the idea is that an nk can spawn, so you aren't absolutely guaranteed to have a member of the evil faction start as a recruit

but I also really don't like the swingy nature of it

[hushed cypress]

you can't tell us what's against the law, this is a post about vigilante!

[worthy edge]

Being a vigilante is breaking the law for a GOOD CAUSE !!!!!!!!! >:(

[north lily]

this is also for a good cause

the cause of balance

:(

[worthy edge]

bumping is a crime punished indiscriminately

it always is pure evil

[modest flint]

lol

[heady hedge]

*bumps

Nah but fr

Nerf vigi

[viscid minnow]

What about when the jailor is shot

[half sandal]

I feel like a Vigi nerf is DEFINITELY needed, but both at once feel like a bit much, ESPECIALLY if Deputy is also having 2 shots, Vet gets 3 with shooting as MANY as they want who visits, and Trick technically having infinite with the change.

Either apply the cooldown mentioned, or make Vigi the only one who gets Hangmanned at the start of the day to make rando-shooting more discouraged.

[plush violet]

I think vigi getting nerfed like this would be fine regardless

trickster is probably gonna get reduced to 3 kills or something I imagine

at least I hope so

[modest flint]

trickster can't inf kill

unleash is still bound to 3

although IMO it should only be 2

[bleak herald]

i thought mirrors were limited, not unleash itself (but was effectively limited by how many mirrors you had)

[modest flint]

oh

trickster is getting buffed

[plush violet]

I agree

3 kills would be even more of an edge case than with vigi, but I think that town kill power being normalized at 2 would be good

[half sandal]

Meh, it does give Vigi the short end of the stick though.

[plush violet]

except vigi has exclusive access to the patented "click on someone and watch them die" ability

so it wouldn't really be missing out on much

[ornate hill]

Yeah tbf the role that directly kills without going through hoops to kill should have the lowest kill potential

[wanton grove]

i dont know how to feel about this tbh
removes some kill power and hangman for vigis
feels like the only risk in shooting now is losing your ability and a town as well instead of just 2 town

[red moon]

yeah thats a good thing

hangmans swingy as shit

and only hurts newbies

[half sandal]

Except when Town is throwing and not saying crap when they NEED to be saying crap, and a certain Vigi justifiably shoots them, only for them to be a random-ahh Invest that was either afk or throwing.
(Me. I was that Vigilante. 😔)

[red moon]

ok.

[half sandal]

It was in Classic, so I probably should've expected that.

[ornate hill]

Balancing around idiots?

C'mon

[modest flint]

ah it's good to try and revive this, @unborn kraken @plush violet feast your eyes on this

[unborn kraken]

ig its good

i come from the game where we have a role that can make stop tks from dying to guilt

[plush violet]

not bad tbh

it would stop vigis from dieing at d3 to guilt

[worthy edge]

Bro

[modest flint]

what

that's not a bump?

i am showing people

[modest flint]

my suggestion

[modest flint]

no..

don't fucking tell me bm acutally added that shit

[ornate hill]

Tbf this should've been base game

[unborn kraken]

we have therapist

[modest flint]

does the tk atleast lose their weapon

[unborn kraken]

no

[modest flint]

wow that's complete fucking aids

guilty is meant to be a punishment so the tks don't just shoot everyone

[modest flint]

so

[unborn kraken]

due is die

[modest flint]

shitter RB
saving tks form killing townies
making people basically 1 tap
speed

anyway

back my suggestion

[worthy edge]

It completely is but I won’t lock it I’m just saying to b careful with that lol

[modest flint]

wait it is???

i was just showing people my suggestion

by pinging them it in

[worthy edge]

I said I wasn’t gonna do anything about the post

But uh usually you should just link the post rather than pinging people

[viscid minnow]

So

Has tuba seen this yet

Or Curtis

[modest flint]

k

[modest flint]

not that i can tell

[viscid minnow]

K

[half sandal]

...That's kinda deep, tbh.

[modest flint]

edit: updated format (also corrected 2 words lol)

[neon vapor]

This still doesn't buff Vigi from being randomly shot by Deputy 50% of the time, but it works fine.
I would say if the target had defence, you don't lose a shot, but I don't know if you think that'd be too powerful. I just feel like too many times I've been Vig, hit two immune people, even after they get hanged "well this sucks, I'm pretty much a TI."

[marsh badger]

Vigi cannot be shot by Deputy.

[neon vapor]

Maybe not even you don't lose a shot, but you last bullet has to be used on someone who isn't immune so.. you don't end up never confirming yourself.

[marsh badger]

Why do you need to confirm yourself?

This isn't healthy for the game.

[neon vapor]

Because people will accuse you of being some random attacking role

[marsh badger]

OK Good.

Deal with it, literally.

I'm not saying something against you personally

but like. Deal with it.

[neon vapor]

I guess it's a fine tradeoff...

[marsh badger]

If Bers attacks NP and your shot gets healed and you get upped? Shit happens, this is ApocTT, it is supposed to be fair instead of catering to Town. You got unlucky.

[neon vapor]

Also pardon me, the first sentence was a joke... Just a common observation of mine is when a Deputy dies by the executioner, its because they randomly shot a vigi.

[modest flint]

this apocTThood shit is tuff

[marsh badger]

You know? I'll allow it.

[modest flint]

oh i didn't mean l-

k

[marsh badger]

Nah you're cool. I'll allow it, you got a chuckle out of me.

[modest flint]

nah i just straight up forgot that you were person of colour

[neon vapor]

Well yeah, this is more accounting for all gamemodes though. Not leverage evils have in a certain gamemode. But I do think it's a fair tradeoff because generally immune roles are meant to be harder to kill or hang.

[marsh badger]

No problem, just correcting because this is modded.

There genuinely should be no world where Vigi can be hard confirmed from his ability alone, but that is a secret killers issue. We need to reduce confirmability in every conceivable way for TKs.

[modest flint]

thank god i didn't mean anything bad or offensive by it

i think sometimes i made "hood" jokes

ok not here but yeah

[marsh badger]

If it's TAA and your shot gets healed / immune , you should be hung because they think you're a Serial Killer.

That means nature is healing.

[modest flint]

LOL

[neon vapor]

Yes, this is true, I think not allowing evils to safely claim vigi because vigi can always eventually confirm themself is unbalanced on second thought.

[marsh badger]

I think 2 shots with a reload is perfect so people cannot say "wait put me down i will try again!!"

But if it's still too broken, 1 shot is always an option for later.

[neon vapor]

Most likely because shooting is a dangerous thing to do in the first place.

[marsh badger]

It is a dangerous thing to do. They could think you are Bers if you do not shoot right.

But that situation is not as rare as you think

[neon vapor]

Well yeah it does, town is often way too lenient on vigi claims that hit immunes, I lean on it when I'm exe.

Forcing a vigi to be more careful about shooting is a good thing. I personally like the old one because it was pretty much a tpow in TOS1 if you knew what you were doing. BTOS is a more meticulous roleset and the current vigi as is doesn't integrate well with it, as there are already so many town roles with higher killing power. Current vigi doesnt work well.

[marsh badger]

Yeah, the problem is that Vigilante is not a town power, so we have to stop treating him like he's the freaking Batman. (Not directed to you obviously, just in general.)

[modest flint]

Yeah the point of vigi is that he's an anti-hero kinda... he means well but it obviously should make him more suspicious and less comfirmable.

the point of vigil

is to be a basic town killer

what the fuck are you on

[neon vapor]

I was going of irl conceptions of vigilantes... not really anything game related, just lore.
Of course he functions as that. I'm just ramblling.

[marsh badger]

Let's keep things focused, the point of Vigilante is to be the simplest killer for town.

You click someone, he dies.

All of that extra stuff was a bit unnecessary.

[neon vapor]

If we're purely focusing on it functionally then, yes. I don't have much else to say. It's a good change.
The reason the game is interesting to me personally is because it works off artistic aspects, but I agree this just a suggestion thread. Wanted to put my thoughts somewhere, though.

[bleak summit]

yes vigilante should be "you can kill someone yourself"

this is fine I think

[oak willow]

I assume this works sort of like trapper where you have to reload for a shot to make KP less consistant?

[modest flint]

yeah basically?

[oak willow]

Then yeah sounds fine for slowing it down

[wispy glen]

"Wipe out coven"
Vigi is a TK not a TPow why let it have the ability to do that

Imagine the 4 CTs in the rolelist spawn 2 Vigis

And a Ret

Good luck Coven that's 6 Vigi shots flying around

At least TPows are unique

Even 1 shot Vigi would be strong, but for the sake of not being a worse Dep 2 shots is fine

Whether reload gets added or not Idm since Idk how much it will change (maybe at least people will stop expecting Vigis to shoot n2 with no leads)

[weary tree]

40 upvotes

Why is this not a thing

[modest flint]

idk man 🥀

[worthy edge]

6 people downvoted clearly this cannot be added

[bleak summit]

tuba is actually reworking vigi into something else that's why it can't be added

[modest flint]

how???

[worthy edge]

tuba is giving vigilante a FOURTH bullet

[modest flint]

NO!

[bleak summit]

tuba is allowing vigi to shoot as many times as they want in one night

[worthy edge]

Also vigilante griefing is a problem so now if you shoot a townie it chooses a random evil instead

[bleak summit]

and if you shoot a town power it will give them Invincible Defence instead

[weary tree]

I heard that suggestion was rejected

Instead, it’s going to be that Vigi only gets the option to shoot evils

Town cannot be chosen at all

[worthy edge]

That does sound more balanced tbf!!!

[modest flint]

the report button:

oh nvm

i only read

the first bit

[worthy edge]

Actually though I now realise if someone reports someone the reportee should die instantly so they stop throwing

[plush violet]

just make it like deputy

it'll be less confirmable that way!!!

make EVERY tk work based on detection immunity

[worthy edge]

💩

[plush violet]

I HATE deputy I HATE deputy I HATE deputy

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/804885546803396631/966225144861298739/830456897634697279.gif

[bleak summit]

me as arso on my way to report everyone who I don't have doused:

[plush violet]

me as literally any role in the game reporting everyone as fast as possible so I can be the last player alive and win:

[bleak summit]

the new meta becomes reporting people as fast as you can

[worthy edge]

I trust our community would never abuse this system 😇

[grave ether]

noooo

when would I ever play dirty

[fleet crypt]

Don't worry, you can count on me

[fleet crypt]

@weary tree

fuck wrong thread

i hate my life

[weary tree]

lmao

i was already in this one