#Role Buckets Discussion

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

dire dagger
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New Buckets (Just suggestions, not really needed)
True Neutral
All neutrals including NS

Evil
Self explanatory

Independent Common Neutral
All Neutrals other than NKs and NS

Factional Evil
All Evil Roles that have a factional chat minus NS roles (Pretty sure that's only Coven + Apoc)

Changes to Buckets
Common Town
No longer includes TK (Also plz move Trick to TP I beg)

Common Coven
No longer includes Coven Killing

Post some of your Bucket Suggestions/Changes below and react to others' posts using the following:
🔵 - Needed
🟢 - Good
🟡 - Meh
🟠 - Not needed
🔴 - Would hurt the game

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You can react to mine with these:

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True Neutral

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Evil

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Common Neutral

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Factional Evil

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Common Town Changes

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Common Coven Changes

undone stirrup
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isn’t independent just RN

dire dagger
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I mean basically, just without NKs

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Since NKs can win with others of the same role

undone stirrup
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so its

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what

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how do you have RN without NK

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that’s just NE/pariah

alpine citrus
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I understand the logic behind the CT changes, but I think having it strictly limit Town Power roles is more applicable in most lists. Independent pool is weird, but most of the others have good applications. Common Coven change might make some lists tricky to build, but it makes sense, the power differential between CK and other CC is very noticable.

smoky girderBOT
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@alpine citrus has leveled up! (1 ➜ 2)

levelup.png
undone stirrup
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restricting CT means more TI

alpine citrus
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AAAHH

undone stirrup
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it also limits fakeclaims

alpine citrus
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don't seer jumpscare me at 10:04 pm please 😭

undone stirrup
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10:04*

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so

alpine citrus
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objection sustained

proper remnant
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Factional Evil would be good for pandoras

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You could have something such as:
Coven Leader
Random Coven
Random Apoc
Faction Evil
Ban:
Beserker
CS
Vampires [if they show up in factional Evil]

Would allow for more flexible Evils.
I'd also like random non-factional [Aka all roles without a night chat] but I guess that would be kinda niche.

clear raven
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I'm pretty sure nks are still planned to each become unique

echo bramble
undone stirrup
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what

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the

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fuck is common neutral

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isnt common neutral just the independant neutral

echo bramble
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yeah but like

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it makes more sense to be COMMON neutral

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instead of independent

undone stirrup
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yeah

echo bramble
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NK is gonna be unique anyways hopefully

undone stirrup
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NKs should be

echo bramble
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they WILL be

undone stirrup
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but currently RN doesnt need to be changed

echo bramble
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every neutral should be unique realistically

undone stirrup
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lore balancing is bad

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😡

echo bramble
echo bramble
undone stirrup
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what were you getting at then

echo bramble
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there's no reason we should have 5 doomsayers in a game

undone stirrup
echo bramble
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Die irl

undone stirrup
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maybe

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depends

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only downside to that is i cant bully bad suggestions

alpine citrus
undone stirrup
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counterpoint: what fun does guaranteed conj/rit have for say mayor

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also CK is swingy

clear raven
echo bramble
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CK is legit ruining the game

clear raven
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I can't believe CK is running the game

echo bramble
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CK is the worst rolebucket in the game and it's not even close

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there's no reason a rolebucket should make a team so much more powerful that it outclasses coven power in most scenarios

clear raven
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CK has 1 good role, and 2 unbalanced roles

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Russian roulette of quality

undone stirrup
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basically

echo bramble
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those 2 are either S tier

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or dog shit F tier

undone stirrup
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ye

echo bramble
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it's legit a problem how swingy one role bucket is

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like TPOW has the problem too but holy shit is it more apparent with CK

undone stirrup
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i mean CD is swingy when dreamweaver

clear raven
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I did post some jinx Reworks earlier

undone stirrup
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unless DW is CU

clear raven
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That kinda fix jinx

echo bramble
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the the tpow problem is only cause of Jailor

clear raven
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But it loses the Ambusher identity

echo bramble
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so I'm saying it is CU

undone stirrup
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ok

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i have no idea which one dreamweaver is

echo bramble
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it's only CD cause it was going to be hypnotist

undone stirrup
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in basegame

echo bramble
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in vanilla

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it's CD in vanilla

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cause it was GOING to be hypnotist

clear raven
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#1227415822469955694

echo bramble
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and they decided to rework it

undone stirrup
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they never made the 5 minute fix

clear raven
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I think nunny's Hypnotist would be cool

undone stirrup
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sad

alpine citrus
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so rebalance. don't remove alternative methods of killing for coven because the roles aren't in a perfect state. calling me idiotic for wanting games to be unique says much more about you

echo bramble
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THEY'RE NOT BEING REMOVED LMAOOO

clear raven
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It's base tos1 hypno but it has more feedback to cause more deception

echo bramble
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do you know what removing x bucket means

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that means all the roles go into a different bucket for BALANCE reasons

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if you want the game to be an unbalanced mess go play vanilla

clear raven
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CK isn't good for the game

echo bramble
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you can find plenty of that there

clear raven
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3 unstoppable attacks or 2kpn aren't good

echo bramble
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CK is a problem because it legit is swingy as fuck and has roles that either shouldn't be the way they are

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or is either broken or terrible depending on circumstance (i.e. rit and jinx)

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mafia legit had a MK alignment and guess what

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MK was the equivalent of Mafia Head/Power

clear raven
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Mk was a weird ass bucket

echo bramble
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Ambusher GF and Kidnapper are all powerful roles

alpine citrus
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removing coven killing is removing alternative methods of killing, whether you're talking about removing roles or reworking them to cause less extra deaths

echo bramble
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mafioso is the equivalent of book

echo bramble
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do you like role balance

clear raven
echo bramble
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do you think it's okay that coven can get 4 kills in 1 night

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and then on average have 3

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if you think that's okay just say that

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please inform us of that

clear raven
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Actually they should have 3, nerconomicon, conj, and mislynching

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The noose is just as strong for coven as it is for town

echo bramble
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the noose benefits neutrals the most unironically

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any hang is a good hang for a neutral

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as long as it's not them (less ur jester)

clear raven
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The noose can kill literal gods

alpine citrus
echo bramble
alpine citrus
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4 kills a night is not a thing. it's probably happened in like 5 games ever

echo bramble
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a simple PM Witch Pois Jinx combination can be 5 KPN actually

alpine citrus
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coven kills specifically i mean

echo bramble
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witch controls a vigi (2 kills)

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jinx kills (3)

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pois kills (4)

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also rit instead of PM mb

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and then you have, guess what, 5 kills

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that's 33% of the game gone in 1 night aidan

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just because it CAN happen means it's unhealthy

alpine citrus
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well guess Witch is the problem, but you aren't suggesting removing that.

echo bramble
clear raven
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Witch has had like, 5 reworks suggested

alpine citrus
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by your logic

echo bramble
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yo you suck at balance discussions

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witch has had multiple reworks and nerfs suggested

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people KNOW witch needs to be changed

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this has already been discussed

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a multitude of times

clear raven
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We really gotta get the anti-powercreep propaganda made

echo bramble
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you're actually contributing nothing by saying that

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and you also apparently just don't read any balance discussions

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CK is being suggested to be removed because the sub alignment gives coven too much power

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there's a reason the best coven comps have 2-3 CK

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and little to no CPOW, CU, and especially CD

clear raven
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Funnily enough removing CK buffs the cl rework tuba suggested

echo bramble
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like what the best is Witch (CPOW) VM (CU) Conj/Jinx (CK) Rit (CK)

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do you think this is okay @alpine citrus

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if you think that the best team comp having 1 POWER role

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and 2 killing roles is okay

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then you're delusional

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the then the 2nd best is like

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Witch Rit Conj Jinx

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see how this has ALL 3 CK?

clear raven
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Dudes pissed off rn man

echo bramble
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and then it gets worse because you have CK in CU called Poisoner

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and then you get the abomination of Pois Jinx Rit Conj

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so like I said

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In what world where a team comp can instantly win D3 with 1 mislynch is okay

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inform me

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NO OTHER FACTION has that

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literally NO other faction

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the closest to that is Day 4 Famine Death + Berserker

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and even then THAT'S PREVENTABLE by hanging death and rbing berserker/protecting

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so inform me why this one faction

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can auto win day 3

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but no other faction even comes close aidan

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give me a reason

alpine citrus
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I have never said the balance of the game is perfect. You are straw-manning me. I am simply saying that I don't think it is a crime to have coven faction members besides conjurer that can kill people. THAT has somehow led to your ridiculous rant. I now see that I shouldn't have responded at all, because you clearly don't know how to deal reasonably with pushback. You are proving points that no one disagreed with, repeating yourself, and spamming.

echo bramble
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yo if you type up some bullshit I'm gonna be done arguing with you

alpine citrus
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My overall take on reworks is that I would like to keep some simplicity in the game, and I do not think every strong role needs to be completely overhauled and be three times as complicated just so its more balanced. Does that mean Ritualist and Jinx don't need changes? Never said that. I simply think roles that center around providing extra kills to the coven are fine, so long as those roles provide a balanced amount of extra kills in an interesting and unique way. Now you can berate me all you want, but this is all I'm going to say about the matter, because I don't want to waste your time or my own.

echo bramble
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telling you rn

echo bramble
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so again you're objectively wrong and changing the narrative

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I explained how a faction having beyond 1 KPN is terrible balance and shouldn't exist, conj has 1 meteor to keep that KPN in check

echo bramble
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compared tos1 mafia to tos2 coven, tos1 mafia had 2 ways of extra kills (in modded) that were mutually exclusive and high risk high reward

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tos2 coven has conj, jinx, rit, witch (given right circumstances), poisoner, and to a lesser extent necro (dead vigi) and voodoo (essentially kills someone for a day)

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that's not balanced aidan, CK needs to be removed and all of them need to be worked on.

proper remnant
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Voodoo woulda been less of a issue if coven didn't have crazy KPN On some games.
While i dislike vote blocking (its honestly unfun), i think silence only vodoo would be awful

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Tos 2 needs less coven KPN, but it's also a major town issue

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also NE has crazy kill power depending what you get

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this is kinda just what happens when KPN Is power scaled too high

alpine citrus
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A solution would be adding bleeds to the game

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You could replace some forms of attacking with bleeds, like removing Jinx's basic attack and sight mechanic and replacing it with a bleed to one person who visits your target, which would kill that person in two nights unless barriered

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if you add new types of effects for an attack to inflict, that opens up more options for CK and NK

manic pollen
upper aurora
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(I will just be dropping a ✅ if I like the concept)

  1. ✅
  2. ✅
  3. This is only... I genuinely cannot think of a single thing that spawns in this atm
  4. Shouldn't include vampires, jackal, or CS (does CS have a night chat?)
  5. I'm on the fense with this one. TK are extremely unbalanced, but fixing them isnt actually that hard
  6. ✅
manic pollen