VM doesn't suck
#Coven Leader Rework
floral inlet
uncut coyote
vm sucks as a role design yes
knotty dome
please rephrase this
floral inlet
but i don't think it's that good of a role
uncut coyote
because it's broken
floral inlet
there are better
pastel jungle
please rephrase this
tell vm to fuck off
floral inlet
please rephrase this
do not rephrase this
twin bear
You can remove info from tis, fake claim silenced to not look suspicious and as well be a hard counter to maj late game
uncut coyote
there are better
ya, witch and the ck
floral inlet
ya, witch and the ck
can't do ck
pastel jungle
Pls rephrase
i did
uncut coyote
witch being another default option and the ck being unmorphable
floral inlet
people sometimes call me vm
💀
acutally but no you do make a good point
let me update the chart
pastel jungle
witch being another default option and the ck being unmorphable
let the ck be morphed
uncut coyote
people sometimes call me vm
who
pastel jungle
cant wait to spawn as solo CL rework
uncut coyote
ya it's established how crazy conj is with this
uncut coyote
# cant wait to spawn as solo CL rework
don't you mean solo hm?
pastel jungle
don't you mean solo hm?
solo witch
ok but imagine if this could morph ck into ck (conj -> conj -> conj)
uncut coyote
hm is the best solo role to get out of this
twin bear
What's the best solo coven role other then the cpows and like necro do to astral visits
uncut coyote
it's astral and has a win condition that goes through defense and protection
twin bear
pair Witch/pm with
Jinx
floral inlet
in a Hm and necro combo
uncut coyote
if I didn't have an hm + necro combo with a cl, I probably wouldn't go for it to be honest
twin bear
Bro I swear I had a game where there were a cl and necro we were fighting on who gets the book until the necromancer got it... And then they got jailed 😭
uncut coyote
if I didn't have an hm + necro combo with a cl, I probably wouldn't go for it to...
it puts a big amount of your loadout on hex bomb
which isn't necessarily better than just being able to blitz to parity
twin bear
Tf does necro and hm combo other then like necromancer can use hexes?
uncut coyote
swapping someone to hm wouldn't be bad, though
but necro would probably be a role that you would swap out for something else unless it's like all any or something
but that's also the case where you wouldn't want a vm
sweet rampart
Mine salvation
Even though the original caporegime I pulled from was tosfm caporegime and I had to jumo thru multiple hoops involving it spawning in place of godfather to make it work
chrome pelican
Tf does necro and hm combo other then like necromancer can use hexes?
that's it
that's the combo yes
necro can trigger hexbomb
floral inlet
@uncut coyote @knotty dome @twin bear @pastel jungle @severe ridge
pastel jungle
has they used them?
twin bear
<@456226577798135808> <@151017392934354944> <@705398233442025552> <@112069954419...
if gu e hge
twin bear
Any painting program can do that mind map so no worries
floral inlet
just link a spare email
uncut coyote
or better yet, temp mail
pastel jungle
better yet: https://app.diagrams.net/
knotty dome
pastel cedar
pastel jungle
Disclaimer: this should only be done on opposite day
uncut coyote
nope
floral inlet
acoustic onyx
are you recruited -> no -> can you confirm your target is recruited -> yes -> is your target a strong role -> yes -> troll them and make them dreamweaver
(real)
uncut coyote
coven leader becomes the best non-recruit coven role
pastel jungle
coven leader becomes the best non-recruit coven role
and when hes rec
just
change your witch into dw
and yourself into witch
💀
uncut coyote
then you get exposed as rec and your coven busses you
nuh uh cuz curty said that's throwing
iirc
floral inlet
||MY CL TURNED ME INTO A WOMAN?! [M human -> F human] ||
uncut coyote
bussing a teammate isn't throwing
bussing a suspected rec is playing towards your condition
floral inlet
putting in your will who the recruit is/who your coven is... is thou
but bussing isn't throwing
floral inlet
putting in your will who the recruit is/who your coven is... is thou
well it isn't throwing but
it's against the rules
atleast
uncut coyote
I bussed my bers that I knew was rec just last night in ajr
I mean if that's the case did I break a rule for hanging the recruit death as pb?
floral inlet
no what
uncut coyote
I mean if that's the case did I break a rule for hanging the recruit death as pb...
I think "absolutely not" is a good answer
floral inlet
it's just
no outing last second/no outing in will
like "GUYS 5 IS RECRUIT I AM THE LAST REAL COVEN"
dies
uncut coyote
I mean we did win from outting rec death
uncut coyote
I did it because we would lose without it
uncut coyote
yeah I did it like in pre voting phase
uncut coyote
so basically anything petty that doesn't actually benefit your condition?
floral inlet
yeah
uncut coyote
pushing a rec for confirmation is awesome
that's how I got by without being suspected that game
molten finch
floral inlet
"outing for the sake of being a little bitch" i think is the main ruling behind recruit rules
uncut coyote
"outing for the sake of winning" is winning
floral inlet
yeah you just can't do it while being hanged or in will
like i had said
dicussion, and pre-dicussion
uncut coyote
ofc ofc
floral inlet
@molten finch am i correct on the "on trial" thou
uncut coyote
I'm pretty sure you also can't just do it randomly
floral inlet
or is it just on will
molten finch
you can't out either way
floral inlet
@molten finch no because ok say like it's apoc JR
uncut coyote
like someone day 2 just goes "I'm coven 6 accidentally targeted me, they're rec"
molten finch
if you're outing just bc u died thats a nono
floral inlet
oh
ok
so yeah @molten finch no outing on trial (when dying) and no outing in will
i was correct
molten finch
We don't have a proper write up for exactly how the rules on that are, even though we 100% should
But it's roughly that
uncut coyote
what if it's apoc jr, death comes out, and I just yell "6 IS DEATH" because either I know they're the rec or I'm the rec
uncut coyote
is that kinda the same as coven coming out in that scenario
molten finch
yeah
twin bear
floral inlet
what if it's apoc jr, death comes out, and I just yell "6 IS DEATH" because eith...
well like i have roughly said
since it's not in will and it's not on trial
(why the fuck would you wait to do this on dyin trial you lose anyway lmao)
molten finch
echo smelt
So when can I out my coven rec?
uncut coyote
I almost did lose to rec death and rec mayor
uncut coyote
So when can I out my coven rec?
bussing them is the best play
molten finch
my internet moves at a swift 14 bytes per second
floral inlet
i think JR should have a Friendly fire modifier
floral inlet
@uncut coyote btw funfact: did you know that transformed apoc can't die to life-link
uncut coyote
botc more like nuh uh
floral inlet
recruits are acutally lovers linked
or some bullshit
"the horsemen cares not for love"
or whatever
uncut coyote
canon that recruits are lovers
echo smelt
So what is the og jackal lore?
uncut coyote
uh like you gotta work with a random guy or something
uncut coyote
coven leader on their way to abandon the entire coven they assembled to go with a random ass guy
molten finch
or why they do what they do
echo smelt
Then a townie decided to become tt
uncut coyote
Then a townie decided to become tt
spitting straight fire
floral inlet
@molten finch i think it's one of 2 ways:
power trip contracts, jackal almost acting like a warlock's patron and that if they survive they get whatever the jackal is promising them, i guess even after death
brain-washing
2 is more likely
uncut coyote
I hate having my brain be washed
knotty dome
aka nobody can be bothered to explain how they work
Jackals are typically very charismatic characters that use their charisma to convince even the most stubborn person to join their cause
severe sigil
jackals are egyptian dog things
pastel jungle
<@571442138685112341> i think it's one of 2 ways:
power trip contracts, jackal a...
money
uncut coyote
<@456226577798135808> btw funfact: did you know that transformed apoc can't die ...
ya
it's an unstoppable attack
uncut coyote
no its instant death
show me a case of it bypassing invincible defense, then
floral inlet
no its instant death
it's not
i saw a transformed apoc
survive
@outer hatch can back me up
severe sigil
it's not
yeah they survive
ik that
but its not an unstoppable attack
its straight up instantdeath
like exe
severe sigil
then how do transformed apoc survive
theyre immune to instant death abilities
floral inlet
no?
floral inlet
hex bomb counts as a instant death does it not
floral inlet
no because shouldn't death kill be ending the game
but it doesn't
we know that because of the bug
severe sigil
cuz it was coded specifically to be more than instant death
and now straight up ends the game
floral inlet
severe sigil
i know the bug
floral inlet
hex bomb and death winning should work the same way then
"instant death"
but it doesn't
clearly
death got upgraded to unstoppable+
so shouldn't the same be with hex bomb
it's just unstoppable+
same with jackal recruit life link
it's the tos1 lover's life link
which is only unstoppable
like how it was in tos1
so pest wouldn't die to it
back in tos1
fringe dome
from what i understand hex bomb literally doesn't attack
it just ends the game with a coven win
no if-ands-or-buts
meanwhile death does deal an attack
floral inlet
well that makes
severe sigil
no hex bomb kills everyone
floral inlet
0 fucking sense
severe sigil
essentially plague, starvation, torment and lovers count as instant death
floral inlet
seems pointless
floral inlet
but IT DOESN'T
molten finch
that means Hex Bomb was unstoppable + from the start tho?
severe sigil
i have seen apoc survive jackal's recruit life-link death
because apoc survive instant death
dude
molten finch
Armageddon had a bug with CS where transformed horsemen on other teams actually survived it
severe sigil
its this immortality status thing
idk what its really called
so i call it immortality
molten finch
Invincible defense ? or
severe sigil
Invincible defense ? or
its seperate from what i understand
but whenever a role gets invincible
the immortality comes with
like a package deal
molten finch
the way tuba worded it, having to make the attack type even stronger
I dont know if it works that way
severe sigil
so anyone with invincible also has immortality
molten finch
Unless tuba fixed it by brute force lol
molten finch
You seem to know more about how the game works than the mod devs, very interesting
severe sigil
i dont
molten finch
Ya
severe sigil
all my shit comes from experimenting with exe and random moments of bullshit ingame
since apoc roles survive plague regardless of faction
im assuming they have immunity to it baked in
pure flame
ohcool
floral inlet
but its not an unstoppable attack
it's unstoppable
confirmed by tuba on stream
hold tuba is going to check this rn
well after stream
severe sigil
weird
pastel jungle
so anyone with invincible also has immortality
tf u mean bro
invincible is NOT immortality
severe sigil
eh hes a dev he knows more
severe sigil
invincible is NOT immortality
no its just a package deal
like when you get invinc you always get immortality coming with
floral inlet
fucking pulling out tuba on stream like fucking mahoraga
severe sigil
arso doesnt kill horsemen
sweet rampart
Pierce invincible
severe sigil
no
sweet rampart
💀💀💀
floral inlet
why would arso pierce invinable
pastel jungle
we are in the misinformation central
floral inlet
so true..
severe sigil
how would arso pierce invincible
floral inlet
hold let me get the tos defense chart
pastel jungle
how would arso pierce invincible
same way armageddon does
floral inlet
it still works in this game
pastel jungle
unstoppable+
severe ridge
arso doesnt kill horsemen
Because invincible defense beats unstoppable attacks
vivid knollBOT
@severe ridge has leveled up! (36 ➜ 37)
severe sigil
Because invincible defense beats unstoppable attacks
yes
floral inlet
severe sigil
i know
acoustic onyx
where hex bomb
severe sigil
pretty much
severe ridge
Thank you, mr.BMG man.
median aurora
I didn't mean exactly the same, I just mean I could see this as a cool demon in BOTC
median aurora
yes it is similar to pithag
uncut coyote
TRANSFORMED apoc are immune to lifelinlk
yes
I truly kick-started that whole debate off of a true statement
white burrow
I truly kick-started that whole debate off of a true statement
yeah I was informed in stream chat
💀
gilded flicker
How I imagine every game with CL will be
floral inlet
yeah I was informed in stream chat
:3
pure flame
How I imagine every game with CL will be
i wish this server had a starboard
floral inlet
i come here again
to glaze the ever living fuck
out of the HM and Necro combo
no matter what team i have, with Cl by my side i can make reality possible
every game
severe sigil
this again?
pastel jungle
no matter what team i have, with Cl by my side i can make reality possible
solo cl:
floral inlet
if your solo then just don't transform unless you REALLY need it
since everyone asks for this to keep book defense
icy depot
I don't like this
icy depot
Uhm
uncut coyote
well cl has to spawn, and can only use it twice
uncut coyote
the cl in dtt essentially gets a free reroll on both coven that spawn 
of course including the cl
tulip moth
turn RC from conj who nuked into VM
lapis tree
conj nukes and becomes hex, cl becomes necro, w
icy depot
Yeah plus it kinda removes the point of playing with what setup you were rolled
icy depot
conj nukes and becomes hex, cl becomes necro, w
Ew
Honestly I don't think becoming Hex Master is that useful
lapis tree
necro hex
icy depot
it kinda is
Wait can you morph a player into a role that is in the game but is dead?
lapis tree
dont think so
tulip moth
Morph (2):
Morph a Coven member into another Coven role that is not in play.
not in play could be defined as not alive
tuna please clarify
lapis tree
technically theyre still in play
icy depot
Yeah that's why I asked
lapis tree
due to ret/necro
icy depot
If you can morph into a role that's dead it can be useful 100%
But if not then I don't see it being that useful unless you do it N1, since you're already at a disadvantage with how far behind you are
uncut coyote
if you could morph into a role that's dead wouldn't it kinda step over what necro should do?
icy depot
Yeah which is the niche that Necromancer already kinda tries to fill
icy depot
if you could morph into a role that's dead wouldn't it kinda step over what necr...
Exactly
lapis tree
(i was thinking about morphing more cl
icy depot
Not really
tulip moth
with one simple step, turn fucking dreamweaver into an OP role
lapis tree
with one simple step, turn fucking dreamweaver into an OP role
nope
get conj to nuke d2
then morph conj into witch
lapis tree
and then lategame necro jumpscare
tulip moth
easy
uncut coyote
turn DW into VM
and then just exist as a book sponge I guess
lapis tree
necro is really good sometimes because with the right dead bodies u can just become another bookholder
or heck u can even morph yourself
tulip moth
and then just exist as a book sponge I guess
precisely
severe sigil
necro is the best book sponge
lapis tree
necro is the best book sponge
early on, until theres good dead roles
severe sigil
i mean just swap book out
lapis tree
war doesnt work iirc
uncut coyote
ya, because it gets an absurd amount of luxuries with the book for no real reason
severe sigil
give book to someone else
severe sigil
ya, because it gets an absurd amount of luxuries with the book for no real reaso...
there is a reason
nostalgia relics
tulip moth
/j use famine
severe sigil
fucking nostalgia relics keep coming up as a problem
tulip moth
coven amne
lapis tree
im all for more book effects given to more roles
tulip moth
lapis tree
like rit should be astral with book
tulip moth
no.
lapis tree
cuz its flavored as a 'basic ritual' or smt
uncut coyote
ya, because it gets an absurd amount of luxuries with the book for no real reaso...
rb immunity, pseudo astral, invest immunity...
as well as the sheriff immunity given naturally with the book
a necro with the book is actually one of the least detectable killers in the game
up there with shroud
(only while shrouding of course)
molten finch
Wait can you morph a player into a role that is in the game but is dead?
tuba says no so far
idk if it was answered i cba reading this
icy depot
necro is really good sometimes because with the right dead bodies u can just bec...
That's why I don't like Necromancer much
icy depot
tuba says no so far
Okay good
I don't like this rework either way though
The only thing I like about it is how Town can think a certain role is in play and then you change it to something else to deceive
That's it though, everything else about it kinda takes away from the main skill of playing as Coven which is to fight with the cards you're given, and it's pretty much does Necromancer's job way better most of the time
molten finch
Eehhh
It's only this one role doing it
This is inspired from Pit Hag in botc anyway, which can do the same thing and more, but it doesn't take away from any skill expression there
icy depot
Yeah that's enough for me, I'd rather each role have unique abilities
molten finch
I'd argue this can lead to more plays if anything
It just gives coven so many more options
icy depot
I'd be more tolerable if Necromancer didn't exist though (like how this was an idea pitched for Mafia) but since Necromancer exists and I doubt would be overhauled it's a no from me
icy depot
It just gives coven so many more options
In an ideal world yes, but with how the game is laid out no
molten finch
It's only a problem with the roles that are alr unbalanced in coven
icy depot
Nothing's gonna stop you from just picking the strongest Coven roles and that's it
molten finch
just sayiiing this gives more of an incentive to fix them
icy depot
~~just sayiiing this gives more of an incentive to fix them~~
This does the opposite actually
molten finch
u think so?
icy depot
"Illusionist and Medusa are weak but you can change their roles with Coven Leader so it's fine"
Absolutely
severe sigil
not really
it makes the roles more swingy
more people will complain
about those roles needing cl to even be viable
severe sigil
the weak coven roles spawnng
not only would it make their games swingy as shit
it would also take away cls freedom of gameplay
icy depot
Unless they have all of the Coven roles roughly equal to each other in power level, Coven Leader is gonna end up picking the strongest roles to morph into
icy depot
Then you're stuck with the weaker half of Coven roles and like what's the point 💀
hexed musk
rec cl when hm is about to bomb their team mate: nah, illu
floral inlet
I don't like this
why
icy depot
I don't like this rework either way though
@floral inlet
floral inlet
That's it though, everything else about it kinda takes away from the main skill ...
ehh
not really
also this doesn't steal necromancers job
like it's a pallel
necromancer deals with the dead Cl deals with the living
icy depot
That's the same thing
molten finch
I think they mean Necro deals with ones that have lul
icy depot
Oh
icy depot
necromancer deals with the dead Cl deals with the living
I mean yeah but ideally you don't want your team dead
Necromancer is limited by that and the fact that they can only use a corpse once
floral inlet
Necromancer is limited by that and the fact that they can only use a corpse once
le epic astral attack with book
icy depot
le epic astral attack with book
This is an unbalanced mechanic
The fact that Necromancer's main purpose is getting extra kills and using the Necronomicon is sad
languid spire
me when i use famine as necromancer
silliest
fiery orbit
Here me out
Coven Leader has 1 Day charge to switch the Roles of 2 Coven Players’ Roles (can do it to itself, while on trial, or at anytime during the day)
Charges would carry over but not replenish
lapis tree
no
white burrow
i dont think so
hazy nest
oke
white burrow
you cant retrain your rec
hazy nest
ty
lapis tree
can u retrain a cursed soul on ur team
languid spire
you can retrain people on your team into other roles yeah
Town CL can make people into town versions of coven roles
lapis tree
Town CL can make people into town versions of coven roles
town cl just tells you every townie's number
hazy nest
i saw that on a pipton stream
lapis tree
town cl can only morph townies
hazy nest
if you suspect someone of being war
LOL
lapis tree
morph them into illu
they can reject you
hazy nest
we should test that
lapis tree
genius
also you can't morph non-townies
so you just immediately know who is evil
least broken cursed soul interaction
lapis tree
its the same as vanilla now
white burrow
town CL is bugged
languid spire
Non-coven CLs should be able to retrain anybody into roles from their faction fr
me when i turn the Jailor into Sheriff 🔥
proud fjord
Me when I turn the revealed mayor into vet
Or even better (worse): jailor into amne (no dead town)
uncut coyote
remember when blossom was glazing the not even good necro hm combo
hexed musk
turn marshal with another tribunal into coroner (no one has been killed at night)
forest hinge
hazy nest
why is this back for me randomly
fringe dome
they should add this to the game
wintry geyser
silver lark
Tuba shadowbumped his post mods lock this post
pastel jungle
Why is this at the top
tulip moth
Why is this at the top
people are actively talking in it