RiR Thread 4 - BTOS2 Official Edition

[patent magnet]

aside from recolors

[still slate]

lol

[narrow quest]

Proto do you have plans for the other TPow

[still slate]

nope but prosecutor is very painful to play with

[latent turtle]

bring back 1 pros not ending day prosecutor

💔

[still slate]

the day prosecution sucks

• confirmation

[narrow quest]

I ask this because
TPow's a mess of a slot that needs to be rebalanced all at once
So you should have a plan for how your prosecutor is gonna fit in with all the other tpows

[latent turtle]

you can literally never stop a prosecutor from being confirmed

that is definitively how tpow works

[narrow quest]

^

TPow can't really not be confirmed

[latent turtle]

you limit how MANY can spawn

and them beign confirmed isnt a problem

[narrow quest]

1 or bust ngl

[latent turtle]

because they're now a sole powerful role that if killed loses a lot of value for town

[narrow quest]

(but they need to be rebalanced first because imagine having your 1 tpow be mayor)

[latent turtle]

and also making pros not reveal will literally change nothing

"im prosecuting 5"

5 gets prosecuted

[narrow quest]

It's actually a buff

[latent turtle]

hard confirmed pros

[narrow quest]

because

[latent turtle]

yea i want mayor buffed like so badly

[narrow quest]

you can decide to call your shot in whispers instead

[latent turtle]

yes

[still slate]

my view on Tpows:
Mayor: Buff
Marshal: may need a slight overhaul, still not that nice
Monarch: Buff
Prosecutor: Rework
Jailor: Nerf this fucking role

[latent turtle]

and still be hard conf to 1 person

[latent turtle]

Marshal existing created the problem

[narrow quest]

yeah

[latent turtle]

cause honestly before if they nerfed jailor and made pros once per day

[still slate]

they indirectly buffed marshal

[latent turtle]

the balance between all tpows would actually be amazing

[narrow quest]

but no one realized that until after it was added to vanilla

[latent turtle]

yep

[narrow quest]

by which point it was too late

[still slate]

3 executions -> 4 executions with both parts split

[narrow quest]

well no

it still adds two kills to the game

the indirect buff part is

when the fuck are you actually gonna need three kills in one day

[still slate]

the buff is that they added an extra hang

[narrow quest]

Like I said

they didn't add any extra kills

3 hangs in one day adds two extra kills

[latent turtle]

yea

[narrow quest]

4 hangs in 2 days adds two extra kills also

[latent turtle]

u actually only ever needed 1 kill

[still slate]

oh yeah true

[latent turtle]

so the buff of making marshal 2/2

[narrow quest]

the main difference is you don't blow your load all at once

[latent turtle]

or well change actually made it really strong

it also is a constant looming threat even after using its ability

[narrow quest]

yea

[still slate]

how to make judge useless: cant call court during a tribunal

lol

[narrow quest]

lmao

yeah Judge is

a mess

[still slate]

audi and SS are fun

[narrow quest]

and every time people say "bring NP to vanilla so they can counter Marshal" i want to drown my sorrow

[still slate]

yo mystic, u got a small feature for the pros rework? nothing big

[narrow quest]

like I said

not really

this isn't a "nothing big" kind of undertaking

rebalancing Pros simply cannot be done in a vacuum

And since I'm a vanilla hoe

Pros's issues largely stem from the fact that it is basically a sidegrade to Marshal

[latent turtle]

NP shouldn't be added until NE gets looked at

and really it shouldnt ever be added

[narrow quest]

Thus defeating the point of them being unique (since you basically get a second Prosecutor)

[latent turtle]

yep

if marshal and pros co exist there will always be a problem between the two

[narrow quest]

So Prosecutor needs a whole ass overhaul from the ground up

[latent turtle]

or Marshal

but nobody wants to overhaul marshal so

[rotund slate]

hi can i assist with breaking up the red hell in chat

[still slate]

fucm

fuck off

red only

[narrow quest]

And so does Mayor, for different reasons (namely it was designed around being the only instant hard reveal role which is now not the case)

[rotund slate]

i can become red with recruit perks but id rather not

[still slate]

were racist towards non-red people!!! /j

[latent turtle]

Mayor's problem is that

compared to Pros and Marshal

it cannot be protected

[kindred spire]

becomes red no

[narrow quest]

No, it's not about comparison

the protection has nothing to do with it

it's a point against it but like

[latent turtle]

its a side effect as well is one of my main issues with it

the main thing is that pros and marshal have more control and interaction with the trials than mayor does really

[narrow quest]

The main core issue with Mayor
Is that it was designed for ToS1 in which it was the only hard reveal button role
It was designed around the hard reveal being the thing that made it special.

Which doesn't work anymore now that several other roles do it.

[kindred spire]

If Marshal was never added and the self reveal feature wasn't part of Prosecutor, then Mayor would still have that unique thing about it.

[narrow quest]

well

not really

like

you can take the green name tag away from Deputy and Prosecutor

but they'd still be hard reveal roles

[kindred spire]

-# ngl I forgot Deputy reveals in vanilla

[narrow quest]

And they'd still ape Mayor really hard because of that

I don't want to talk about BToS2 Deputy because it makes me viscerally angry

[kindred spire]

BTOS2 Deputy is better than vanilla Deputy though

you cant argue with that

[narrow quest]

I hate it so much

[kindred spire]

yea I hate it too

[narrow quest]

I'm not gonna go into it because I will rant all day about it but like god

[kindred spire]

I just don't like that its "no animation? guilty"

but there isnt really much you can do with Deputy unless it was overhauled

which has been proven to not work well

-# See marking Deputy

[narrow quest]

well the issue is

Vigilante's the actual culprit

[latent turtle]

We've gone over this so many times

[kindred spire]

I honestly wouldnt be surprised if Socialite made it into BTOS2 before Deputy got changed again.

[narrow quest]

really

[latent turtle]

there's 5 criminals in town of salem

those being

[narrow quest]

huh

[latent turtle]

Jailor Vigi Socialite (vanilla) Crusader and Seer

every single one of these roles is so much better then the rest of the roles in their respective bucket

that they literally just make the game like 50% more likely to be a loss if they're not in your game

[kindred spire]

Vigilante can (probably) get a change that won't be very controversial

Jailor... can't.

Seer needs an overhaul.

Socialite needs less self confirmability.

[narrow quest]

Well, sort of

I'm a radical and think 2 bullets (reload be damned) won't fix the core issue

It has to be 1, IMO

and people are a bit more iffy on that because they don't like one trick ponies

[kindred spire]

and I never liked roles that have a single ability to use and then become a sitting duck

[narrow quest]

here's the thing

without powerful attack

and without day kills

there's 4 people you can potentially hunt for in the majority of standard modes

Do you really need more than one bullet to have a substantial impact on the game?

[kindred spire]

I think, one of the problems is that if Vigilante was changed to have less kill power

it would be heavily disliked

but thats just what I think

with Vigilante

screwing up a shot once screws town over

[narrow quest]

That’s a problem with nerfing basically anything ever

[kindred spire]

but if you know what you're doing, Vigilante can be powerful

[narrow quest]

People like OP stuff because being the OP thing is gratifying

[keen bridge]

and thus we get swing

[kindred spire]

though with vigilante

i think we can all agree

this man needs to go

[narrow quest]

Except Curtis, lmao.

But anyways like

[still slate]

anyone got the shield icon from TiS?

[kindred spire]

speaking of Hangman

[narrow quest]

I feel like people are more accepting of shit being too swingy or OP if they consider it a “skill issue”

[kindred spire]

I never liked Prosecutor's punishment in BTOS2, as it only applies to the first prosecution.

[latent turtle]

one shot ponies are fun when they have a large impact ina slower game

we are not living in a slower game reality

[narrow quest]

Like I’ve had conversations with people on vanilla server who argued that Vigilante is fine because if the Vigilante shoots a townie it’s a skill issue and being able to solo the Coven is fine because you have to be skilled to do that

But like

The problem is Vigilante having so much control over the game as a whole

[kindred spire]

Jailor also serves the same niche, just better.

[narrow quest]

It’s a power role

They’re meant to do that

[kindred spire]

yea ik

[narrow quest]

Although the degree of control that TPows have over the game is still pretty crazy

Especially when multiple of them spawn

[kindred spire]

Jailor imo should only have 1 or 2 executes, but like

eh

[narrow quest]

Hot idea that might be stupid

but it fixes the arbitrary unique roles and the Town of Confirm cheese in one go

TK is now all unique
TPow is now all unique and mutally exclusive

[latent turtle]

would be fire

[kindred spire]

"vigi here"
"I cc vigi"

[latent turtle]

i think all tpow being mutally exclusive is a stretch

just a little

[narrow quest]

TPow being mutually exclusive is a necessity in any mode not named TT

[latent turtle]

ccing the tk slot should always exist

[latent turtle]

Eh

i dont think 1 tpow can deal with the simple CPOW CK combination of Coven Leader Conjurer

[kindred spire]

having all TKs be unique is a bad idea, makes faking a tk role more difficult as it is

[latent turtle]

unless its Marshal/Jailor

[narrow quest]

That's CPow/CK's problem

Coven's power level also needs to be lowered

[narrow quest]

This is the reason people cite, but let's be real for a minute
Outside of Secret Killers, is a TK claim ever gonna carry you through the whole game?

[keen bridge]

Put it to you this way faking Town KP is almost 100% of the time a bad idea.

Even in secret killers its not that hard to read into a vig shot being real or fake

(Assuming lack of hangman)

[narrow quest]

NKs can do it pretty handily

but Coven cannot

[latent turtle]

i still like some of the interactions between tpow

if we nerfed killing power power stacking actually wouldn't be that bad

unironically

[keen bridge]

NKs maybe but they can’t consistently cause a sudden spike in death count

[latent turtle]

CL Hex isnt as strong as it seems

[keen bridge]

Unless they are named Arsonist

[narrow quest]

or Werewolf

[latent turtle]

CL Witch is getting there but without the absurd amounts of KPN

they're kinda just also there

[narrow quest]

The issue there is that the strong TPows also all add kill power

[kindred spire]

All town kills should be anonymous.

"They were killed by a Town member."

[narrow quest]

if it's only town kills

that defeats the point

because the way that secret killers helps out evils (especially NK)

is by disguising their own kill as something that a townie could have done.

SK stabs a Coven? "I'm vigi I shot that", now the SK is semi-confirmed

[kindred spire]

it also makes Coroner a more viable target to eliminate

cuz it can just autopsy the kill and bam, you're outed

[narrow quest]

yeah but the point being

[narrow quest]

This wouldn't actually help the evils or even reduce confirmability all that much

[kindred spire]

though outside Secret Killers, faction kills should still be anonymous ("killed by town", "killed by coven")

[latent turtle]

which is why i said

if you nerf tpow stacking its fine

[narrow quest]

eh

[latent turtle]

i used to suggest that if a prosecutor in vanilla prosecutes marshal and dep shouldn't be able to use their abilities

but i think that was a kinda mid suggestion in hindsight

[narrow quest]

like i think the biggest issue with TPow stacking isn't so much the power itself
But the fact that like

Now you have a voting block of hard confirmed townies

Who may be larger than the voting block of evils

[kindred spire]

Prosecutor shouldnt have ever existed
-# It only exists because of Traitors in Salem

[narrow quest]

Disagree

Marshal is the latecomer

but anyway

on the point of TPow stacking

even if let's pretend your TPows were all duplicate Mayors or something

you can basically play whack-a-mole with everyone who isn't hard confirmed

[kindred spire]

thats...

just All Any

[narrow quest]

There's RT slots in Ranked

So no it's not

tpow stacking happens in other modes too

[kindred spire]

the amount of times I've seen Day 2/3 Marshal reveals just to hang people 😭

they see a button and think they must press it

[narrow quest]

in fact in Ranked it's worse because you can hard confirm more people with uncc'd slots

[kindred spire]

ah reminds me of another reason why i hate competitive tos

[keen bridge]

everyone's favorite
rolelist deduction

[narrow quest]

yeah

[kindred spire]

late claiming on Day 2 means nothing 😭

[narrow quest]

so no, tpow stacking is not just an AA problem

it's just harder to solve in AA

[latent turtle]

thats a confirmation problem though

i think 2 tpow cap is fine

[narrow quest]

Confirmation in other slots is an issue but like

idk man

[latent turtle]

because i believe 2 tpow (1 killing, 1 non killing) = 1 cpow 1 ck

[narrow quest]

It's not just about those two being equall

[keen bridge]

to solve it in ranked you just put 1-2 tpow slots on the list and use CT over RT
to solve it in AA you have to hardcap tpow in general. Which takes away from the AA chaotic energy... some number of players crave.

[kindred spire]

so Jailor/Pros/Marshal and Mayor/Monarch?

[narrow quest]

"I used the stupid OP bullshit to destroy the stupid OP bullshit" doesn't solve the problem of games being too blitzy

[latent turtle]

yes

[kindred spire]

the hard cap already exists in vanilla, you cannot add more than 3 tpows

[narrow quest]

Which takes away from the AA chaotic energy... some number of players crave.
I hate when people say this as a response to anything that might make AA more balanced

[keen bridge]

but myyyyyyystic
my chaos

😭 😭 😭

[narrow quest]

the funniest one is the apoc cap

because like

[keen bridge]

...seriously, i got given the chaos argument when i wanted a better chat filter in tol i sorta get ur pain there

[narrow quest]

people say that putting the apoc cap back on now would somehow kill the spirit of AA or something

but it was on before

and people didn't say the spirit of AA was dead back then

[kindred spire]

The natural cap for Apocalypse should've stayed at one.
It should only spawn multiple if the list is told to (multiple NA slots or confirmed NA roles)

[narrow quest]

yeah

but I'm not hopeful that it'll ever get reverted

[kindred spire]

Example:

15 Anys = max 1 apoc
4 NA slots = 4 apoc

heck

imo

the NP cap should be the same

natural cap at 1, but you can set 3 in Custom+

[narrow quest]

I've seen the argument that all neutrals should be unique

[keen bridge]

possibly that one is moreso due to coding issues, i wouldnt speak for curtis and tuba

[narrow quest]

what, the TPow cap?

[keen bridge]

no

np cap

[narrow quest]

NP cap is funny

[kindred spire]

a thought i had with neutrals is that any and all neutrals show friends to each other for Seer

[latent turtle]

you can

can you not just

force NP slots

[keen bridge]

i dont think you can?

[kindred spire]

not anymore

[narrow quest]

huh

[latent turtle]

oh then i have like

[narrow quest]

that's odd

[latent turtle]

at least 5 lists that are broken

[kindred spire]

only way to do it is with premade roledecks

[narrow quest]

Which is funny because it basically time gates the feature

bit of a "screw you" if I'm gonna be honest

[kindred spire]

like I have both pariah party lists saved, and they will work just fine

[narrow quest]

but anyways

the issue with making neutrals unique is NE
But honestly all the NEs are bad enough that it's fine

[kindred spire]

heck I once had Monster Mash saved, and it could be started and would work fine

i have a 3 bers list saved, and i refuse to start it because

[narrow quest]

Lol

that would be

very funny

anyways

[keen bridge]

just pretend it exists with a War + Bers list

[kindred spire]

i have a 6 vamp list, and I will be personally suspended by the L taker if I start it

[narrow quest]

jesus

that sounds a bit harsh for just fucking around in a custom list with friends

[kindred spire]

its for server stability

or so he says

[narrow quest]

i see

anyway on the topic of uniqueness

[keen bridge]

😠

[narrow quest]

ah

it's that one

idk why that one is blocked but

[kindred spire]

there was this (see the original message for what Curtis said)

[narrow quest]

I've seen the whole "all evils should be unique" take

[kindred spire]

the screenshot is from an April game

[narrow quest]

and the only thing that gives me pause is NE

The problem with making NEs unique is that NEs (at least most of the the vanilla ones) are designed to make you play around them in some fashion. If they're unique then killing one means you don't have to worry about that threat again (so if Exe dies then you can trust TI pushes more from then on)

[latent turtle]

all any balancing

[narrow quest]

However, all the NEs are awful so the thought of making them all unique just so I don't have to see more of them

is nice

[kindred spire]

I personally never liked the idea of all Neutrals being unique, but I can understand the reasoning.

[narrow quest]

*takes a shot*

[latent turtle]

fiure

but like

jester still exists

evils still exist

[narrow quest]

If you don't know me, hi, hello, I'm Mimi, I care a lot about All Any and I think it deserves some respect when it comes to balancing

[keen bridge]

if I look at it rationally and not "fuck these neutrals"
you can maybe get away with nonunique jester and executioner

nonunique doomsayer is enough to blow up more than half the lobby

however the conga line of fools in tol gives me major pause

[narrow quest]

yea lmao

[kindred spire]

if you want All Any balancing, the least it should have is Day 1 Town Majority at all times

[narrow quest]

mmm

the thing is I actually don't have that much of a problem with it

games where town is just fucked because none of them spawned

A: aren't that common

B: can be solved by dealing with other spawning issues

[kindred spire]

it would be funny to see a 0 Town AA game

[narrow quest]

I have literally never seen that

I've seen 2 town spawn

[keen bridge]

its also kind of what you signed up for

[keen bridge]

i dont think it can happen in tos2

i might be wrong though

[narrow quest]

You can't prove that

[full vector]

it should be possible

just rare

[kindred spire]

0 evil AA games are possible, but just as unlikely as 0 town

[narrow quest]

you can only fail to disprove it

[latent turtle]

yeah

[keen bridge]

its true in btos2 and I can prove that

uh

[latent turtle]

0 town and 0 evil games are possible

[full vector]

doesnt it check now for two opposing wincons

[latent turtle]

it is literally just so

SO rare

that is like

[narrow quest]

You can't prove that 0 town games are impossible

[latent turtle]

once in a million

[keen bridge]

im projecting somewhat. But

[narrow quest]

can't prove a negative basically

but anyway

[keen bridge]

I do think its plausible a similar to restriction to what exists in btos2 exists in base

[kindred spire]

ive seen it happen with smaller lobbies

[keen bridge]

shrug i know i cant prove it for nilla

[kindred spire]

day 2 town win, no evils spawned

[narrow quest]

If you capped apoc and made NKs unique, that alone would make more townies spawn on average
So the issues of town just not spawning with enough people to stand a chance would be mitigated without needing to do things like a hard minimum

[latent turtle]

3 jesters

2 executioners

the random pirate and doomsayer

[kindred spire]

this reminds me of the Individuality modifier

[narrow quest]

and a partridge in a pair tree

[latent turtle]

lmao

[narrow quest]

the individuality modifier sucks because it makes every claim a CC risk

[kindred spire]

it should be separated into a Town variant and a Neutral variant

[full vector]

it doesnt really work for TOS

[keen bridge]

individuality is a gimmick

also if you dont use it with snitch then lmao

(Lil Monsta botc makin me cry)

[full vector]

me when the NP and CL claim the same snitched role

[narrow quest]

wtf is snitch

[keen bridge]

evil players know 3 out of play town roles

[full vector]

3 not in plays are shown to all evils

[kindred spire]

me when the 3 roles listed are banned roles

[full vector]

non power townies

iirc

[keen bridge]

it can be power town

[narrow quest]

So like

[kindred spire]

it can show tpow

ive seen it list pros

[keen bridge]

its just 3 town roles that didnt spawn and arent banned

[kindred spire]

it doesnt check if the role is banned

[keen bridge]

it is supposed to

[full vector]

yeah

[kindred spire]

#1281727993248485408

[narrow quest]

So does BToS2 have a bigger version of the ToS2 problem where there's a bunch of modifiers no one actually gives a fuck about
Or is that problem mitigated by the fact that Casual mode is the main game mode in BToS2

[latent turtle]

yes

[keen bridge]

oh no there's still tons of unused modifiers

[full vector]

[latent turtle]

i have tried to make countless lists with the modifiers not used

and everyone complains about them

like memorial day

[narrow quest]

lmao

[latent turtle]

so i mean

[keen bridge]

players when they see hidden roles:

:fear:

[latent turtle]

me when i dont get fed social deduction for free

[narrow quest]

😨

[keen bridge]

meanwhile pandora in the corner

but yeah

lots of unused mods

[narrow quest]

yeah

[kindred spire]

Pandora is probably the most unbalanced balanced modifier 💀

[narrow quest]

It's also made any attempt to balance Apoc as a faction grind to a halt

[full vector]

well yes

[narrow quest]

because they're just in the coven now

howdy doody

[keen bridge]

which is especially dandy because pandora is universally scumsided

[kindred spire]

they really just gave up on Apocalypse and made "Coven Apocalypse" a thing

[full vector]

apoc cult moment

but they didnt even try to make them different

[keen bridge]

we finally did it
a scumsided mode in a game thats somehow townsided as a 10v5 baseline

[narrow quest]

well yea

the apoc roles, in a faction that gets regular kills

are kinda nutty

like imagine having a hex master but just better, in every game

[full vector]

they're designed as NK

[latent turtle]

yep

[kindred spire]

I will still never like Pandora.

[latent turtle]

pandora is literally the most evil sided mode of all time

[narrow quest]

Pandora makes me sad more than anything

[latent turtle]

unironically EVERY pandora mode is scum sided

pandora JR is scum sided to all hell

[keen bridge]

im fine with pandora conceptually but. Honestly I'd have rather had it with tos1 scum factions

[kindred spire]

Pandora in concept is good, but its poorly executed.

[latent turtle]

i miss tos1 gameplay in general

[narrow quest]

Pandora would have been a hella good modifier for BToS1

like it'd be sick

[latent turtle]

lowkey

pandora mafia

mafia coven

[kindred spire]

i dont miss tos1, aside from

[latent turtle]

would've been sick as fuck

[keen bridge]

I don't, honestly

[narrow quest]

same

[full vector]

but uh

[latent turtle]

i dont miss the meta

i miss the gameplay

[kindred spire]

I only miss tos1 amne and ga

they were the fun neutrals

[full vector]

survivor

/j

[narrow quest]

There are things I depise now, that were in ToS1
But I couldn't hate them back then because the NBs and Vampires were that awful to me

like Jester

[latent turtle]

survivor was fun

when you did stupid shit

[narrow quest]

but if you want to win you have to play it really boring

otherwise you're gonna die a lot

[keen bridge]

yeah pretty much

[full vector]

metas and all

[keen bridge]

not even a meta

[kindred spire]

evils should've been killing surv claims, with the amount of mayors claiming it

[keen bridge]

playing survivor is just

[latent turtle]

who the fuck wants to win

[keen bridge]

that

[latent turtle]

unironically if ir olled nb

the goal was to have fun

[narrow quest]

If you play a video game and don't have at least some intent to win wtf are you doing

[latent turtle]

not to win

[latent turtle]

playing a game

for fun

lol

[kindred spire]

Amnesiac was (probably) the best Neutral role TOS1 had imo

[keen bridge]

well see when I boot up a game of tos

or really

any social deduction gam

[kindred spire]

Achievement hunting?

[keen bridge]

I go in expecting my fun to be had via deducing liars or deceiving the town

survivor. Does neither

[narrow quest]

I think ToS1 Amnesiac was given way too much credit for what it actually was in practice-- a Survivor with more committment.

[latent turtle]

just

dont claim survivor

[kindred spire]

and i think thats why it was good

[narrow quest]

Ehhhh?

[keen bridge]

doesn't change your anti-incentive from engaging in the gameplay

[kindred spire]

i never played much tos1

[keen bridge]

sure I didn't always claim survivor as survivor but

[narrow quest]

I think if Survivor is boring, then Amnesiac must also be boring because they are in practice very similar

[keen bridge]

didnt matter, it was boring either way

[kindred spire]

i cant even go back to tos1, one reason being

[keen bridge]

people only found amne fun because they got to pick up a cool role with it

this is what tol alchemist got designed around

and it suuuuuuucks for it

[narrow quest]

wasn't tol alchemist like

surv but with actual abilities

[keen bridge]

survivor with a doctor and 2 kills

this made it disproportinately swingy and so fucking frustrating for anyone that wasn't the alchemist

[narrow quest]

so Pirate

literally

Pirate

[keen bridge]

amne kinda did that

[narrow quest]

(sort of)

[keen bridge]

like either you're town and you see amne backing up scum and groan

or you're scum

see the amne backup town

and groan

same principle as who alchemist points their emerald bombs at

[narrow quest]

or you're scum and see amne become Pestilence and groan

[keen bridge]

a collective groan echoes out as pestilence comes back

in F5

[narrow quest]

yeah

Amnesiac was given too much credit

it wasn't really that fun

Honestly hot take Jester isn't that fun either

you get a free pass to say and do whatever you want

which is one thing

[latent turtle]

i have been a jester hater for years

[narrow quest]

but you also get no control over the attention of the game

In ToS2 specifically it's harder to compete for attention over the flashy day abilities people have
And the optimal play is to just not claim in VFA because town doesn't have a choice but to hang that

[latent turtle]

jester makes me want to court myself ngl

[narrow quest]

yea

[keen bridge]

the optimal play for jester has always just been "post an obviously bad fake/say you won't claim day 2" and its

boring

[full vector]

id rather play surv meta than jester

[keen bridge]

I think tol fool really upped my hatred because hanging fool made you have to do nothing for a day

[keen bridge]

(this is why i dislike btos2 exe)

[latent turtle]

may i introduce you to..

[narrow quest]

Oh yeah I have "make Jester's punishment harsher" as an item on my drinking game

[latent turtle]

https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1241132517151477910

tuba said he'd consider adding it idk if they ever actually got around to it

[keen bridge]

fun trivia
fool used to incur 2 days of no hangings if it died before day 4

why?

because funny

its always "because funny" when i see jesters get developed

[calm condor]

can i have the latest dll please?

[full vector]

what even is on your drinking game

[narrow quest]

"AA isn't meant to be balanced/can't be perfectly balanced [so let's use that as an excuse not to try]"
"Bring back [mechanic, role, or faction that was cut from ToS1]"
"Deputy is fine"
"Doomsayer and Ritualist should be allowed to guess TI"
"Jester wins too easily, so let's make it more punishing to lynch a Jester."
"Let's fix [bad role] by making it Neutral"
"Let's fix [bad Neutral role] by making it Coven"
"Nerf [insert self-revealing role here] by making it not reveal its name when it uses its ability"

"[bad thing] can't be stopped completely, so there's no point trying to mitigate it at all"
"[bad thing] has happened in other games, so it shouldn't be a problem here"²
"[lore explanation for a balancing decision]"
"[OP role] isn't broken if you add a hard counter to it"
"[OP role] isn't broken because bad players can screw over their faction with it"
"Let's remove all the mechanical balancing that is barely holding All Any together"

"Apocalypse spawning in multiples is broken, let's fix it by [literally anything that isn't just putting the 1-Apocalypse cap back on]"

1: Only take a shot if you see someone is unironically making these points without being prompted. Do not take a shot if the person is likely trolling, or if they are saying these things in reaction to seeing this list or otherwise hearing what I take a shot for.
2: This is only shot-worthy when referring to someone using an example of a thing happening in other games as a reason why *you should like or tolerate it here.* It is *not* shot-worthy (and in fact valid) to use a thing happening in a similar game to express that the thing should be *possible* in ToS2.```

[latent turtle]

i said aa balancing earlier as a joke btw lol

also

[narrow quest]

i see so many people unironically throw that line

[latent turtle]

Deputy is fine

[narrow quest]

deputy is not fine I hate deputy

i hate both versions of it for different reasons

[narrow quest]

sorry hold on

[latent turtle]

crusader should kill everyone because they have a sword

and they should kill everyone

[narrow quest]

@calm condor

[keen bridge]

man
I am kind of on the let TI get guessed by the anticlaim train but I also understand why as of now bringing that back just makes the game painful.

[calm condor]

thx

[narrow quest]

god imagine AA's currently playerbase but no one ever claims as TI because they're scared of getting doomed

[latent turtle]

"im ti"

"what ti"

"im ti"

LMAO

[narrow quest]

That shit is already annoying now

[latent turtle]

the sad part is you can get away with just claiming ti in all any

and nobody will do shit

[narrow quest]

no you really can't

people will push you for it

[late mason]

> average vanilla all any player

[latent turtle]

i literally have

[full vector]

people already do this

[latent turtle]

i have claimed "ti" as coro

or i mean as werewolf

said i was coro

said nothing else for the rest of the game

and only died d4 to coven majority

[narrow quest]

That was just you getting ignored

I feel like

[latent turtle]

ive done just straight up claiming ti and not get hanged eitehr

so i mean

[narrow quest]

there's a difference between "I coasted on a weak claim because town folded immediately and/or had better shit to do" and "I had a weak claim and people actually believed it"

[gusty atlas]

Hey guys, I need some help when I put in both dll's it tells me this error

[keen bridge]

what's your error message?

(hover over it)

[latent turtle]

i mean

it was mea nd cov

as the only evils

they literally had 0 reason to ignore me

[keen bridge]

do you have the option to allow out of date mods enabled? (or whatever it's called)

[gusty atlas]

I think not idk what it is called

[keen bridge]

I’d enable that and try again

[gusty atlas]

Idk how to enable that

How do I re-enable it?

@keen bridge

[full vector]

salem modloader settings

iirc

[gusty atlas]

Thanks

Got it now

[narrow quest]

so, question

if Det is doing FancyUI
Is Alch working on Silhouette Swapper rn?

[rotund slate]

that sounds like the setup to an april fools joke

[small lotus]

det is working on porting mrc into fancy ui and colored wood, i'm working on icon packs and sil swapper

[visual zealot]

sil swapper
give

me me want

[narrow quest]

Silhouette swapper being an actual mod is gonna open some floodgates holy hell

[kindred spire]

I am both on board and against MRC being ported to Fancy UI

[small lotus]

Yup

[sharp bronze]

@small lotus if mrc gets ported that means that also randomly breaks

I am onboard with that

👍

[small lotus]

Mhm yup

Your haunted pc is gonna be super haunted

Actually tho

[sharp bronze]

what is the wood colour stuff about tho

[small lotus]

Im thinking of making fancy ui as like a master mod

[narrow quest]

The settings page for this mod is gonna be a mile long

[sharp bronze]

can someone explain the wood colour stuff

[narrow quest]

So uh

[small lotus]

basically the ui stuff changes colors

[narrow quest]

We wanted to recolor the actual UI elements of the game

[sharp bronze]

the player list?

[narrow quest]

Yep

[sharp bronze]

tos1 QOL mod

[small lotus]

anyways here's what i was thinking of

you have a complete mod called fancy ui that has everything in it

OR

each feature is broken up into individual piece mods so you can pick and choose which feature you want, all mutually exclusive with fancy ui itself

[kindred spire]

oh thats not my reasoning for being against it

[sharp bronze]

giant fancyui mod

yipeee

[kindred spire]

i modified MRC 😔

[sharp bronze]

I modified BTOS2 to give myself scuffed cheats

[kindred spire]

well unlike what you did, i didnt break anything

[small lotus]

real

[sharp bronze]

i didnt break that much

D:

[kindred spire]

you still broke something

[small lotus]

smh that's why i said piece mods

[sharp bronze]

what did I break again

[kindred spire]

idk

but anyways

[small lotus]

you could either have everything in one, or pick which piece you want individually

[sharp bronze]

we need everything

[small lotus]

real

i think you misunderstand what im saying tho

[sharp bronze]

no ik what you mean

probably

[small lotus]

lmao

inb4 i make fancy ui a mini mod loader on its own :]

[kindred spire]

this is all I added to MRC:

• Include Jackal Prime As Major
  -# Determines whether the Jackal role uses the Major End color
• Include Vampire Role As Major
  -# Determines whether the Vampire role in BTOS2 uses the Major End color
• Include Killing Roles As Major
  -# Determines whether Town Killing and Coven Killing use the Major End color
• Use Middle Color For Pandora
  -# Determines whether Pandora has a middle color
• Use Middle Color For Compliance
  -# Determines whether Compliance has a middle color
• Pandora Middle Color
• Egotist Major End Color

[small lotus]

send allat to det fr

[narrow quest]

FR.

This is exciting though

[kindred spire]

i can just send the dll

[narrow quest]

I’m so hype to see what becomes of this mod

[meager token]

coven killing majors sure

[small lotus]

and to think it all started with a teeny idea from mystic

[meager token]

tk majors no

[kindred spire]

also "fixes" the Rec issue iirc

[sharp bronze]

"fixes"

[narrow quest]

A certified shower thought about why Shroud’s icon was green led all the way to… this. :D

[small lotus]

real

[kindred spire]

it disables the patch that causes it 😭

[small lotus]

i'm tempted to make a server exclusively for fancy ui

[kindred spire]

real

[meager token]

anyways time to go borrow the fancy ui source

ima need as to walk me through where things are cause

i have no clue

[small lotus]

np

[kindred spire]

lemme go uh

[small lotus]

hmu when you have a question

[kindred spire]

exclude TKs from Killing Majors

[small lotus]

i'm about to push a commit soon as well

[sharp bronze]

nooo that means we have to lleave here

[small lotus]

better than likely having to shift between threads lmao

[narrow quest]

We’ve moved house like 4 times

[small lotus]

ye

[narrow quest]

This is getting a little bit nutty

[small lotus]

5th and final time fr

[kindred spire]

it would also allow for more organization

[small lotus]

jk only if you guys are up to it

[sharp bronze]

also can we be able to change the whisper colour, purple looks bad on white

[narrow quest]

Oh yeah also

The text color on the player list would also have this issue

Based on certain colors

[sharp bronze]

it wouldnt be that bad

[small lotus]

-# we already have a lore server, how bad can this be?

[sharp bronze]

but why are we here in the first place

[narrow quest]

Mommy when are we gonna have a home?

[sharp bronze]

is the real question

[small lotus]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[narrow quest]

We’re here because the SML server lowkey died

When this server came out

[meager token]

why are there so many empty files-

[kindred spire]

lol

[small lotus]

placeholders

ignore them i'll work them....eventually

[sharp bronze]

i was planning on modifying fancyui to change the defaults

that's it

[sharp bronze]

this server also killed tuba's pretty badly

[small lotus]

true lol

time for us to kill this thread too fr

[sharp bronze]

but i would like a fancyui server so I can make a bug report every time it breaks

you will never be free

[narrow quest]

Lmao

[small lotus]

yk what, yeah organisation wise it also makes sense

so i don't have to hunt in chat or ask for dms on bug reports

[narrow quest]

While that’s true, SML never had an RIR thread

[small lotus]

it did?

[narrow quest]

There was only the vanilla server, SML, the BToS2 Beta server, and this one

[small lotus]

i remember sending beta versions of fancy ui there

[narrow quest]

That I know of

[sharp bronze]

there was one in the beta server?

[small lotus]

there was yeah

[narrow quest]

Yep!

[sharp bronze]

my memory of beta was outing every evil as auditor when I got hanged

[small lotus]

lmao

[kindred spire]

average new player

[sharp bronze]

i was very allowed to do it

it wasn't throwing

lol

[kindred spire]

"guys im auditor and 6 is tt mayor"

[small lotus]

real

[sharp bronze]

bc auditor was bugged

and i didn't win while dead

fancyui needs its home

D:

[kindred spire]

tos1 ahh win con

[small lotus]

ye i remember those days

i remember crashing like 8 times when getting rec

[buoyant crane]

do i need to make a thread for yall in LH /joke

[narrow quest]

No.

[small lotus]

real

[sharp bronze]

it's not me I haven't contributed to this mod except breaking it when no one else can

weewooweewoo

[buoyant crane]

ay yi yi she came with the shotgun didnt she

[narrow quest]

*click*

[buoyant crane]

ur haunted what can i tell u

[buoyant crane]

Ow I died

[narrow quest]

-# you can make the gun click without shooting which was the idea there

[sharp bronze]

if this is thread #4 and sml was #1

what were 2 and 3

[meager token]

something we have in common

AS knows this but i have a tendency to just

do something nobody else would

break it horribly

[small lotus]

sml was #2

[sharp bronze]

you can code for this mod I can't

[kindred spire]

Customization is key in the role customization mod

[meager token]

and then suddenly theres an issue to fix

[sharp bronze]

what were the others

[small lotus]

#1 was in the official tos discord

[meager token]

yes but there's free will and adding things for the sake of adding things

[sharp bronze]

you do not have to break it

[meager token]

what

[kindred spire]

I added the Jackal one cuz i wanted powerful recruits to have a gold end but i didnt want the Jackal role itself having it

[meager token]

???

[kindred spire]

then added Vampire for consistency

[sharp bronze]

loonie (det) don't worry ab it

[kindred spire]

this doesnt make it any less confusing

[sharp bronze]

that screenshot was not intentional

[sharp bronze]

the context after should clear it up

[kindred spire]

we love customization

[violet citrus]

would certainly make it easier to categorize everything

personally i'd b interested in adding the ability for there to b a middle color for every faction, but i can understand the potential trouble for that

[kindred spire]

i can easily do that

but like

why

[violet citrus]

... idk. completeness, ig?

[narrow quest]

I think it’d be nice

For some like Jackal

I think your CL one displays the issues with two-point gradients

[kindred spire]

i'd have to make it work with recruits (it currently doesnt)

[narrow quest]

It takes away all the black almost

[kindred spire]

I added it to Pandora for consistency with Compliance.

it wouldnt be hard to add it to every other faction, its just tedious

[kindred spire]

i think i found something new to complain about

[narrow quest]

Lmao

[kindred spire]

lol

[narrow quest]

Jackal (marshal)

[violet citrus]

oh yea vanilla soc and marshal take up the same slots as banshee and jackal

[kindred spire]

doing the faction override does the vanilla icon

so uh

yay?

[small lotus]

semi functioning icon pack tester

i shall now disappear

[kindred spire]

nope get back here you must suffer

[small lotus]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1126171194085875882.gif?size=48&quality=lossless&name=perish

[violet citrus]

semi functioning
unless there's more than that i'll wait

[small lotus]

no game breaking bugs

that i can assure you

i tested that

[kindred spire]

then suddenly

[small lotus]

it should modify the text in the center of the role card rn

[kindred spire]

a new gamebreaking bug exclusive to Mac appears

[small lotus]

real

also im scared for linux mainly

[kindred spire]

tos2 exists for Linux?

[small lotus]

because so far i've not had a single person say there's a bug on linux

[small lotus]

ye

[sharp bronze]

an official fancyui server would be hell for whoever has to deal with my bug reports

[rotund slate]

ok but does anyone even test for linux?

[small lotus]

true

[small lotus]

me-

[sharp bronze]

so no change

[small lotus]

and now det too lmao

[sharp bronze]

:p

Nah det can deal with it

im sure

(sorry det)

[sharp bronze]

i started the whole det/loonie name thing he's probably used to my antics

[rotund slate]

gasp

you

[sharp bronze]

NO

[kindred spire]

grah

this is all im doing

if you want more make det do it

[sharp bronze]

feels unneeded

[kindred spire]

i only did the "special" factions

[sharp bronze]

btw the image didn't load

but I can click on it

[kindred spire]

well anyways

[sharp bronze]

bi pandora

[kindred spire]

yea anyways this is the modified MRC, complete with 3 color gradient options for Jackals, Pandora, and Compliance.
Also Egotist Major End color and the ability to toggle Major End on Jackal Prime and Vampire Prime.

and also the "fix" for recruits

[still slate]

[sharp bronze]

"fix"

[kindred spire]

you can make Pandora pan now :3

[sharp bronze]

tbf I don't like my pandora gradient

I might do that

(well I won't be downloading that dll)

[kindred spire]

me when

[kindred spire]

yes

lol

Coroner

[sharp bronze]

I would have made pandora bi but that's taken by my friend here

:3

[still slate]

looks cool lol

[kindred spire]

role mentions are broken again

[small lotus]

seems to be working just fine?

[kindred spire]

paste it

[small lotus]

ah wtf

how did that break again

[kindred spire]

idk

you broke it

time to downgrade

[small lotus]

fixed the copy paste

...again

[tranquil kindle]

aw cmon man i just unpacked

[tranquil kindle]

i think that's mainly bc nobody's tried shit on linux

i could change that if i wanted to. but i don't wanna. so you are spared

[hybrid arch]

moiler's been using linux now, he had a bug but its been fixed since he last updated so its okay i presume

[real peak]

E

[sharp bronze]

@small lotus where is our server

[small lotus]

In the making

[still slate]

make it faster

[narrow quest]

I have to make dinner but I am helping with the setup

[rotund slate]

ooh a server?

fun

[buoyant crane]

fancyUI server real!!!

[tranquil kindle]

if i may be so bold as to request adding PluralKit

[narrow quest]

Your wish is my command

[tranquil kindle]

:D

[buoyant crane]

[narrow quest]

i prefer tupperbox and use it more, but I added PluralKit because you asked specifically

[buoyant crane]

i mean as someone whos used both they have diff use cases

i use pluralkit for (shock!) plurality stuff and then tupperbox is like

funny rp go brrr

[rotund slate]

i still get jumpscared by a random tupper i have

its rare enough that i dont feel like disabling it but it utilizes a specific two consonant beginning that appears in select words

[buoyant crane]

Oh no 😭

Thats why all of mine have like

a colon so its like x: yz

[rotund slate]

oh i see

yeah i wasn’t thinking

[buoyant crane]

I mean u can fix it like with the bot or just in the app

[rotund slate]

ok but that requires effort

and i’m lazy

[visual zealot]

send me the invite B)

[narrow quest]

no

-# I am waiting for AS to be done with setup

[visual zealot]

-# Just yeet a template on there and add stuff as it is needed

[narrow quest]

-# I don't know how they want it

[visual zealot]

lmao

[kindred spire]

Tupperbox sucks and it shouldnt exist

we dont need tos roleplay

[violet citrus]

(sorry apparently my nephew spammed my keyboard while i was away)

[rotund slate]

darn i wanted to see the spam

[visual zealot]

I never used Pluralkit tbh

It seems arse to set up

I could

I'm just lazy

lol

[still slate]

dang

[kindred spire]

me who saw it

[kindred spire]

i just hate all bots that create fake people with webhooks

it encourages roleplay

[hybrid arch]

out of curiosity, why?

[violet citrus]

i can understand the trouble. while i don't hav DID myself nor am i a system, my brother has DID and iirc both alch and nido are systems

ppl think just bc they can hide behind a webhook they are safe from punishment. there's tools to monitor which accounts r tied to which identities so that's not actually true

[visual zealot]

I'm a system

with @analog yacht

[violet citrus]

and there's a third

[analog yacht]

👋

[manic jolt]

@analog yacht has leveled up! (1 ➜ 2)

[visual zealot]

✅

[patent magnet]

does anyone have the necronomicon icon

[visual zealot]

not fake people B)

[hybrid arch]

wow, three nickels

[patent magnet]

i need it for smth rq

[visual zealot]

I gtg :/

bye

[visual zealot]

check the press kit?

[patent magnet]

oh okay

[violet citrus]

which one? ours or vanilla? honestly pretty sure they're identical but just in case

[patent magnet]

em what is the difference? and I think vanilla

[patent magnet]

Thank you

[violet citrus]

here's ours. apparently they are different, tho just slightly

[patent magnet]

ah alr both look good

[violet citrus]

quality's our goal

-# or more specifically a goal, but pedantics aside...

[small lotus]

tbf it's for mine and nido's disorders, but i understand the concern

anyone got a list of known bugs in fancy ui atm?

[kindred spire]

https://tenor.com/view/oogway-my-time-has-come-gif-8019684

its just one

and its for Det

just send a new dll and watch pasting role mentions be broken again

[small lotus]

nah it's fixed fr

the reason why it broke was because default mentions had broken instead

clearly attempting to fix that did not work

[kindred spire]

wdym

[small lotus]

[[#1]] would output the default admi icon

instead of the recolor

[kindred spire]

oh

[small lotus]

but [[#1,1]] would correctly output the town recolord admirer

like that

[kindred spire]

oh wait

that reminds me of a bug

[small lotus]

go on

[kindred spire]

lemme forward it

[small lotus]

how exactly were you causing this bug?

[kindred spire]

Using faction overrides will always load the vanilla icons

[small lotus]

interesting

[kindred spire]

what ID is banshee?

[small lotus]

same as soc

56 iirc

[kindred spire]

[[#54]] = Banshee
[[#54,2]] = Banshee

2 is Coven

you may need to disable your icon pack though

i only tested it with minimal icons

[small lotus]

hmm

[kindred spire]

i dont wanna tank my performance :3

i never tested it with IDs not present in vanilla

but I assume it just loads Admirer

[small lotus]

seems to output for me correctly

[kindred spire]

ugh

im too tired for this

[small lotus]

oh boy here we go another error that only loonie's having lmao

[kindred spire]

"another"

im not scrape

[small lotus]

yeah unlike scrape who only has one specific issue, your damn thing is all over the place lmao

[azure meadow]

Error 404: Loonie not found.

[small lotus]

real

[kindred spire]

Town of Salem 2 making sure the bug only occurs once and then never again

[small lotus]

real

[kindred spire]

why did I have the genius idea to make EgotistTownie just...

[rotund slate]

i hate it

[kindred spire]

April once had Curtis Man as the icon

[narrow quest]

Alright boys

let's pack it up

https://discord.gg/2EvCNcxx4c

[rotund slate]

lmfao

[small lotus]

@proper marten pin pls so we don't lose it to chat

[sharp bronze]

😭

[rotund slate]

how else to explain it lol

[tranquil kindle]

note to self, once home, update channel bookmarks

[undone crag]

ess

eshs

waga

waga baba bobo

[narrow quest]

The Jailor has decided to execute you.

[small lotus]

https://media.discordapp.net/stickers/1134425328626978887.png?size=160&name=waga+baba+bobo

[still slate]

https://tenor.com/view/jailer-jail-town-of-salem-town-of-salem-2-tos-gif-2970383237310911599

[rotund slate]

wow that's what woke up this chat lmao

server pivot goes crazy

[patent magnet]

I made these icons for a role I didn't make yet use these to your hearts content lol

also GGD reference lol

[kindred spire]

new grandma coven role

[small lotus]

the witch is confirmed a grandma now frfr

[violet citrus]

just a reminder there is a dedicated server and all RIR and FancyUI stuff happens there now

[rotund slate]

yippee!

[patent magnet]

Reused Illusionist Icon into a new icon

[rotund slate]

ooh fun

[proper marten]

give this to the extra votes guy

[crimson nexus]

been a while since I was here

[rotund slate]

gonna yoink some hex codes

[patent magnet]

Lover Modifier icon cause yes

[narrow quest]

Eh.

[rotund slate]

my power went out immediately after i said this

[patent magnet]

Inspired by yours I forgot what yours looked like tho