Removal of protected by [TP] and revealing attackers role

[stiff warren]

Oh yeah I guess you can use it that way. Man language is confusing af ngl.

[spice topaz]

I'm still not sure if the actual (You know, the actual suggestion was made before we derailed the entire thread) is unhealthy so I'm not saying anything

but that Vampire Hunter Hunter guy was spouting absolute shit

[rotund surge]

This poll literally has a unanimous vote so far so your argument was flawed from the beginning

[spice topaz]

poll? Do you mean the main suggestion?

[rotund surge]

Well yes

[untold plank]

The main suggestion cooked, it's great.

[spice topaz]

I literallly said I'm not sure if its unhealty so we will see

the main suggestion is okay

[peak tulip]

whats your opinion on coroner's seeing killers

[spice topaz]

Go fucking back to your cave

[royal valve]

curtis is implementing it tho

[royal valve]

hyper not this again

[spice topaz]

Did I said this about the feedback?

[untold plank]

Not silent controls.

[spice topaz]

I did not said it to the main suggestion

[peak tulip]

no no im going somehwere

[spice topaz]

I do not like it at first glance, thats it

[royal valve]

oh thay

[peak tulip]

@spice topaz what is your opinion on coroner seeing killers

[spice topaz]

however silent controls and silent roleblocks?

[untold plank]

Right, taborlin said secret controls would be massively hated.

[peak tulip]

like learning which killer

[royal valve]

hyper not this debate please

[peak tulip]

its not a debate

just trust

[royal valve]

it is

[rotund surge]

If that's all you have to say about it then you have no further reason to be here
If you wanna bitch about their opinions then go to their respective threads or get over yourself

[peak tulip]

no i need them to answer

[royal valve]

it is going to derail into another argument

[spice topaz]

That you should close your computer and go back to your room in the mental health facility

[royal valve]

we have had this one happen too many times

[royal valve]

thats just rude

[peak tulip]

No that suggestion was me

from alpha

[spice topaz]

They started talking about silent roleblocks and silent controls

[urban gull]

yo chill

[spice topaz]

lmao

[harsh smelt]

i swear you have some of the most cursed emojis

[urban gull]

no need to be toxic over ths

[spice topaz]

Sorry Tuba I'm so sorry

but we have been toxic

a lot

[rotund surge]

Not the ableism

[urban gull]

over an argument of

[spice topaz]

in this thread lol

[royal valve]

thats just wave with the cursed emotes

[spice topaz]

purge this thread

[sharp mountain]

Yeah so stop it

[urban gull]

balance

[untold plank]

Coroner can be fake. We don't have evidence to prove that Coroner would be toxic in secret killers, just really great.

[peak tulip]

they said all of our takes are shit so i brought up one of my suggestions that made it into vanilla

[urban gull]

if it goes like this i will have to lock this thread.

[peak tulip]

i regret that suggestion in hindsight but yeah

[stiff warren]

I'm super hungry and doing the worst thing to do ever, which is talk about balance changes.

[spice topaz]

I should have meant role changes I guess

[urban gull]

no offense to OP

[peak tulip]

tuba can you just kick the troll from the thread

[spice topaz]

murdock's suggestion is going to be implemented according to curtis

[peak tulip]

instead of locking it down

[spice topaz]

so no problem @urban gull

[sharp mountain]

About a 500 message purge

[urban gull]

if soemthing is implemented i would know it and

we

[rotund surge]

It's really just one person that keeps bashing the OP for ideas outside this thread

[urban gull]

have

not

[sharp mountain]

If that will even help

[rotund surge]

Everyone else is fine though

[urban gull]

discussed this

yet

[spice topaz]

fine

[untold plank]

Yeah, @royal valve cooked with the suggestion, the thread technically doesn't need to exist as long as it's written on the to do list

[peak tulip]

we need to remove more feedback

[stiff warren]

Yeah we should remove like all these messages tbh.

[spice topaz]

I was about to leave the thread before Vampire Hunter Hunter came back lol

[royal valve]

curtis says he wants this in and all

[stiff warren]

Cause none of this was productive.

[urban gull]

are we having a productive discussion ? no

instead we have someone

shouting

[rotund surge]

They said "this makes sense" so unless you mean a message in another channel then they never said that

[urban gull]

for no reason

[peak tulip]

yeah this is not productive anymore

[royal valve]

a lot of people shouting

[peak tulip]

mainly cause not a single person disagrees

[spice topaz]

I'm not the only person shoutinhg though?

[royal valve]

this aint really productive

[little acorn]

I’m ngl they are 100% not the only one

Also that is not Murdock they just named themselves after Murdock lmfao

[sharp mountain]

omg Nuggy ✨

[peak tulip]

its fun to fuck with the troll though

[little acorn]

Holy moly

My chat was a bit far back

[peak tulip]

nuggy read back?

lmao

[untold plank]

Yo, nugster

[royal valve]

oh mah gah numbget

[little acorn]

Dude I thought that was like an hour ago LOL

Hihihii

[royal valve]

it was

[spice topaz]

you also want it to be turned into town and coven only?

[sharp mountain]

Yeah there's about 550 messages of bullshit

[spice topaz]

or did I understand it wrong?

[peak tulip]

thats called vanilla mafia

and its fine

[little acorn]

Not me personally but a lot of people do

[peak tulip]

but its not my thing

[royal valve]

vanilla mafia is boring af

[rotund surge]

They replied to the message saying they were being toxic too

[stiff warren]

Jesus we fucking talked about BS for like 20 mins.

[royal valve]

too evil sided

[little acorn]

TOS is very

Mechanical

Compared to other SDGs

[peak tulip]

i know people who like vanilla mafia but thats not my thing

[little acorn]

Holy moly tuba

[royal valve]

thanks toomba

[little acorn]

Hi

[peak tulip]

TOS feels more like a puzzle game than a social deduction game

[little acorn]

Ty roomba

I mean

[urban gull]

actual topic related discussions please

otherwise

i will lock this

[royal valve]

gotcha

imma see if slowmodes up

cant edit my posts

[spice topaz]

okay, now back to the main suggestion

[peak tulip]

You arent thinking "is this person acting like a townie?"
You're thinking "does this person's info fit into the world that info we know is true builds?"

very different experiences

[spice topaz]

?

[peak tulip]

neither is "better"

but i prefer mechanical deduction

[royal valve]

yeah

[rotund surge]

Most of you have been here for over an hour

[peak tulip]

I have no life yes

[rotund surge]

Time flies when you're a bitch online

[stiff warren]

I wasn't. And I'm glad.

[royal valve]

a lot of the true social deduction games that are just sitting down and discussing end up being rng kills which is annoying

[peak tulip]

BASED

[stiff warren]

So true....

[peak tulip]

Time does fly when you're being a bitch online

[royal valve]

real

[urban gull]

my take on it is tos1 did not tell you who the attacker was could go back to that

im not sure of removing the messages entirely tho

[stiff warren]

Yeah just do that.

[peak tulip]

we need to remove a bunch of this pointless feedback

it only serves to confirm people

[spice topaz]

The suggestion was not to remove the entire message anyway

[stiff warren]

The TP not knowing is less of a priority but you know.

[rotund surge]

You can just do the former for now and see how that goes

[urban gull]

honestly im not sure why they added

who is attacker

[spice topaz]

This is what I was arguing against btw for reference

[royal valve]

SLOWMODES UP

[sharp mountain]

It was cool at first

[rotund surge]

They wanted cinematics for it

[urban gull]

cinematics play when you die

so it still works

imo

[rotund surge]

I mean during Wave 1 era

[urban gull]

ah

[rotund surge]

They wanted cinematics for everything

Which I thought would be clunky

[peak tulip]

it would be cool but yeah clunky

[rotund surge]

But since they seemed dedicated I didn't argue against it even though I thought knowing who attacked you was just wrong

[royal valve]

laggy af

[urban gull]

i have the death cinematics disabled

[urban gull]

we can go back to tos1 on that yea

[peak tulip]

same

[spice topaz]

There was a other game demo in steam that was ToS but with 3d movement and it is as clunky as you would expect

[rotund surge]

Period

[urban gull]

will have to discuss with curt

[spice topaz]

So you are correct Wave

[untold plank]

Huge agree, mister tuna!

[sharp mountain]

same lol

[peak tulip]

speaking of wave 1, im genuinely suprised dreamweaver made it past

[stiff warren]

Well I can we reached the consensus of this entire post.

[royal valve]

once its made its made

[stiff warren]

Dreamweaver is CRAZY ngl xd

[untold plank]

Everyone disables the cinematic surely

[royal valve]

i have it enabled

[urban gull]

dreamweaver we couldnt find anything

[peak tulip]

coroner and admi were changed during wave 3

[rotund surge]

It's Josh's favorite role I'm surprised it hasn't gotten touched yet

[urban gull]

yall know how laggy my game is already lol

[royal valve]

honestly im still on the side of yeet

[peak tulip]

thats a take

certainly

[stiff warren]

You just need a complete overhaul into a different role.

Or remove.

[spice topaz]

cinematic adds a small amount charm, and I did not see it being harmful in any way

[rotund surge]

Wdym?

[stiff warren]

Either or.

[royal valve]

dwer can become a neutral or something

[sharp mountain]

If only you had a way to fix that tuba

[untold plank]

Why is Dream banned in one list and CL banned in the other? Both are bad in both CR and TT.

[royal valve]

yeah cool idea

[spice topaz]

except making you enter dead chat 4 seconds faster

[rotund surge]

Takes up a lot of storage for the game with how many there would be

[peak tulip]

dreamweaver can choke on its own saliva

[little acorn]

Make it a new role we win

I had #1202983750636539944

[stiff warren]

Necro Passing in CR.

[royal valve]

make np dwer

[stiff warren]

Right?

[peak tulip]

we need hypno DW

[royal valve]

fr

[spice topaz]

We had a idea for dreamweaver rework with Luminous

[untold plank]

You have been banned

[spice topaz]

Murdock you should remember it

[little acorn]

Hypno dw is only possible when tos 2s messages are less needlessly complicated

[rotund surge]

Absolutely

[peak tulip]

hypno would have been fine had BMG actually given thought to the messages it could send

[royal valve]

yeah

didnt like it

[indigo aspen]

Imagine just a 50 button UI for a hypno

[royal valve]

hell

[peak tulip]

i still want TG's fairy for hypno

[rotund surge]

And not mostly day abilities

[peak tulip]

without the reveal

[spice topaz]

@urban gull , does Dreamweaver need to completely change from core? We had a rework that still kept insanity mechanic in

[peak tulip]

yes

it does

[royal valve]

yes

[stiff warren]

And since we are on the topic of needless messages,

[urban gull]

yes

[rotund surge]

Insanity is just gross in its current concept so I'd prefer if it was overhauled

[stiff warren]

Spy.

[royal valve]

oh god spy

[peak tulip]

roleblocks

[urban gull]

spy moment.

[stiff warren]

Still gotta figure out Spy.

[rotund surge]

I hate Spy

[harsh smelt]

you mean this?https://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=121583&p=3625787&hilit=fairy&sid=4a54896b713237294f8a93cb045bff10#p3625787

[royal valve]

no

[peak tulip]

love it

[little acorn]

I think spy and dw should just become overhauled like basically new roles lol

[peak tulip]

sal cooks

[royal valve]

solution: neutral pariah

[rotund surge]

I miss Sally

[stiff warren]

Well I mean Spy can just be more general.

[peak tulip]

shes not dead wdym

[spice topaz]

Is it gross because of roleblocks/vote blocking or are you guys talking about the "If no one visits you, you become x" part @urban gull ?

[stiff warren]

Only finding effects is dumb.

[royal valve]

nah too useless

[rotund surge]

She's busy with college

[peak tulip]

shes active on anarchic

[little acorn]

Don’t ping tuba for everyrhing

[stiff warren]

Knowing evil visits is not useless wym?

[spice topaz]

he was here just now so I was thinking the conversation would continue

mb sorry

[royal valve]

wdym

[little acorn]

It’s alright

[stiff warren]

And I mean specific evil visits.

[royal valve]

do you want omniscient spy?

[stiff warren]

By more general.

[stiff warren]

Nah.

[sharp mountain]

clearly spy should be a single target wildling 🗿

[rotund surge]

[stiff warren]

I'm saying get rid of the effects restriction and just-

[spice topaz]

what. What else do you want?

[indigo aspen]

Insert whisper reading

[sharp mountain]

In case anyone is confused this is not a serious suggestion

[rotund surge]

Spy should focus on finding effects rather than notifications you don't find much at all

[spice topaz]

Actually I just got an idea Croven for a more generalized spy

I will credit you for inspiration lol

[stiff warren]

Just look at https://discord.com/channels/1197645970998054992/1202372765618020363 I'm not explaining all this on mobile lmao.

[royal valve]

but there arent really a lot of effects

[stiff warren]

Exactly.

[spice topaz]

There are a LOT of effects but most of them are rare you mean

There are very few common feedback

[royal valve]

douse, plague, hex, bread, dreamweave, ench, illu

[rotund surge]

I mean if you classify effects as just abilities in general it can work

But only if it's evil exclusive

[stiff warren]

Oh and role block.

[royal valve]

roleblock should not be seen

[stiff warren]

Well I mean they do see it is all I mean.

[royal valve]

yeah

[spice topaz]

Make spy only see if an effect happened to target. Then buff him so his bug is permanent. He sees if a "Effect" happens to a specific bugged player only and no more info. and the amount of effects happened

Is this too underpowered?

[rotund surge]

I don't get it

[stiff warren]

Just... Get rid of looking for effects. Because either way you cut it it's just going to make Spy role list dependent and inconsistent.

Unless you can find basically everything in the game.

[rotund surge]

Yeah that's what my rework did

[stiff warren]

Yeah. Which also works.

[spice topaz]

Your rework is make Spy a trapper with no protection-killing?

[stiff warren]

At least there aren't many problematic TIs now right?

[spice topaz]

I just read it

[stiff warren]

Yes.

Basically.

[spice topaz]

I will say its not as shit as a lot of things I read

[royal valve]

still has the issue of lo synergy

[spice topaz]

thats a reasonable idea

somewhat suprising

[sharp mountain]

Clemon I'll be real your rework is a nerf

[stiff warren]

Well bugs not persisting makes it a worse LO,

And people say bugs persisting makes it too strong.

So I tried to compromise. If someone finds something better for Spy I'm all ears.

But that's all I got man.

[sharp mountain]

Spy is disliked because of how little it actually provides
Bugs persisting barely aids in that

[stiff warren]

I think you are really undervaluing the power of knowing evil visits.

But that's just my opinion.

[sharp mountain]

In modded it's not as strong

[untold plank]

I like playing Spy sometimes.

Sometimes.

[stiff warren]

Okay, that's... Somewhat of a good point.

I'm just saying why not make Spy just see more stuff? We can make bugs persist idc.

[sharp mountain]

It's for a different chat anyway

[stiff warren]

Yeah.

[untold plank]

Spy is a delicate spot where if you make it see God it can't be faked at all, but it's weak at present.

[sharp mountain]

This was a fairly common thing people disliked as well

[rotund surge]

I think bugs lasting until triggered is fine but I'm not sure if it's too much on your rework

[stiff warren]

But at least there are no longer really other problematic TIs ig.

[stiff warren]

Also something else then I'll stop,

Spy fake claims are impossible. Period.

[spice topaz]

People were arguing passionately that LO was too powerful on another thread, I don't think people think TI's are not problematic

[stiff warren]

And that sucks.

[spice topaz]

You can do it by giving maybe one or two important info then not giving anything. But its both extremely risky and still a weak claim...

[stiff warren]

Well I mean not enough to the entire role bucket to be considerably an issue.

[sharp mountain]

I think lookout is in a much more fair spot with astral gone

[stiff warren]

Yeah exactly.

[spice topaz]

I think lookout without astral is enough of a nerf too

[stiff warren]

I mean I could understand not making LO see every visit too, but whatever. Idc rn.

[spice topaz]

1323 messages jesus

we should stop using the thread as a chatroom

[stiff warren]

Omg.

Well I think we concluded this post imo.

That was a fever dream xd

[rotund surge]

Not even

[stiff warren]

Well for me it was. I don't like to be an argumentative person, so that was a lot.

[peak tulip]

Oh I love being argumentative that was hilarious

[spice topaz]

Exactly

[stiff warren]

I felt like I was actually getting somewhat triggered back there LOL

Anyways...

[peak tulip]

Taborlin’s a troll you’re never going to get anywhere

[rotund surge]

[little acorn]

Okay does this post mean to also remove the protection message entirely

Or will you still know you were protected

[spice topaz]

It means that the only feedback you will recieve is "You were attacked but you were protected"

or a message like that

[little acorn]

I'd be fine with that

[sick venture]

See it or something similar will probably get added anyway because it makes adding new roles with protection or killpower less of a huge hassle

I love writing 20+ lines of feedback 😍

[spice topaz]

One must imagine Curtis to be happy

[little acorn]

I think the game works it out automatically but yeah

it isnt wrong

[sick venture]

I dont know if it does

They seem to be separate strings in the string table?

[little acorn]

U know how templates work on wiki

I think its like that

[sick venture]

This might not mean as much as I think it does

But

It is also entirely possible bmg just individually wrote every string which is hilarious

[little acorn]

lmfaooooo

pain and suffering we win

[peak tulip]

entirely i believe

[little acorn]

That's too much for TOS

Those kind of changes are entirely out of scope

[spice topaz]

It has been talked that the idea was to revert it to ToS1, where it was only "You were attacked but protected"

[peak tulip]

why

[untold plank]

Wait what?

[little acorn]

Since for them to be possible the entire game needs to be rebalanced

[peak tulip]

what makes it out of the scope

[little acorn]

Otherwise

TP become literal dogshit

[untold plank]

No, it would just be "You were attacked but something protected you"

[peak tulip]

ah yeah preventing a death is dogshit

[sick venture]

The scope of the mod isn't to rebalance the entire game lol

[little acorn]

When you can't prove to anyone you actually did it though

[peak tulip]

we need a mod that does that

[little acorn]

In another game

[untold plank]

It kind of is. Taking Exe and Doom out of ranked fundamentally changed the entire thing for the better.

[little acorn]

Where things aren't balanced the way TOS is

Sure

But in tos the game is built in a way where that would make many TP very bad

[sick venture]

Too bad people only play the 8v7 modes:pain:

[little acorn]

Cleric and Oracle mainly

[spice topaz]

You might want to read the entire thread if you want to understand why "Against RNG" want that change Nunny

spoilers: He is either insane or trolling

[little acorn]

No I know why

It's Hyper

I know Hyper

[spice topaz]

I'm sorry but I have to say it

[little acorn]

Hyper is not insane nor trolling

But I dont agree with what they are saying here

actually maybe a lil bit insane anyone in the tos community has at least minor brain damage

[spice topaz]

He argued for a hour on why we should remove roleblock and witch control feedback

[sick venture]

All social deduction players are not sane

[little acorn]

fr

[little acorn]

Hyper is saying this based on other SDGs

[sick venture]

I'm not
How else would I somehow end up playing long-form mafia

[untold plank]

Personally, even if I think Hypnotist would either be A: Busted, or B: Shit

I think PM can take trolling a heal message. Instead of the heal message being entirely gone. Just make the attacked but protected thing generic like FakeTier(Murdock mode) and Curtis said talked about.

[little acorn]

Where there isnt tons of self-confirmable roles

[spice topaz]

And the only reason he is saying these is other SDGs have it

and he is defending it in the most toxic way possible

[little acorn]

okay we aren't looking to start arguments

[spice topaz]

Okay not the most toxic but still

[little acorn]

look at the points someone is making dont attack their argument as a whole

[spice topaz]

Yes, this was the conclusion to this thread

we talked about this conclusion

yes

[untold plank]

I don't think we discussed PM moment though

[spice topaz]

I meant the feedback part

[peak tulip]

TRUE

we do

[indigo aspen]

I cc minor brain damage

[untold plank]

Yeah. It's kind of the logical end to it, right? Make it generic, and have PM be able to troll a heal message.

Now you can make "TT Vigi" appear out of thin air (Secret Killers TT moment when???) , or just do a conf play with PM and not attack for one day to be confirmed cleric.

[little acorn]

"There is a chance that you might have a veeeery miiinor case of serious brain damage"

[indigo aspen]

Press space to talk

[little acorn]

Right so what you're doing there is jumping

[drowsy grotto]

I get this is balancing but #1 its kinda bad and #2 how would you just not realize you were saved like you see the coven attacking you and a barrier protecting you

[peak tulip]

#1 no
#2 if i wanted lore balancing id play bloxston

[indigo aspen]

You can easily explain it by just saying the victim slept through it

[rotund surge]

I mean it's a valid argument when they're saying that it can work in other games

[peak tulip]

can and does beautifully

like silent RBs/controls

[rotund surge]

It really depends on the game's other mechanics

[spice topaz]

Exactly

Those games are not ToS

and we just discussed that we had to strip down everything from ToS for ToS to be those games

so yeah

[rotund surge]

I think silent roleblocks would be overall okay in this game but it'd take a long ass time for players to get used to

[indigo aspen]

Funnily enough silent RBs were a bug in the beta

[rotund surge]

But silent controls would probably be a little bit better if Witch didn't steal results too

[rotund surge]

Yeah sadly people used it as an excuse to justify that it was bad

But the difference was it wasn't intended or expected

[peak tulip]

witch should lose its result stealing imo

[sick venture]

I forget why it ever got it

[indigo aspen]

Because tos1 probably

[spice topaz]

good input

[sick venture]

I mean yeah
I dont remember why tos1 added it

I wonder if it was because tos1 code necessitated it happened because that's how ret/necro worked

[indigo aspen]

I would think it was because witch was an NE and it needed buffs

[royal valve]

yeah

[little acorn]

no, its mainly that with the way tos is, silent protections and roleblocks would just kind of tear a hole in the game. It isn't balanced around that stuff, you'd have to overhaul so much of the game at the same time for it to work

Also it's terrible for bug fixing and such

[rotund surge]

Then overhaul more stuff

[little acorn]

Admirer currently doesn't have any kind of indication that it's in effect aside from the lack of effects that are expected. I.e silencing, which still shows the message but doesn't do anything, ends up just causing people to think the game is broken

[little acorn]

Not possible realistically

There is literally two people coding the mod

In like half a year of development only a few roles were overhauled

[rotund surge]

Yes but this is the headspace where anything can happen

[flint rivet]

are u guys discussing rbs being silent?

[little acorn]

ya

[flint rivet]

what's the general consensus

[little acorn]

most players

[rotund surge]

Overall no

[flint rivet]

i love the idea but it would change the game a lot

[little acorn]

would dislike it

[rotund surge]

I'm indifferent

[little acorn]

Imo

I am not a fan of silent rbs

I think for evils its a good thing to show the message

And for town

Tav is bad anyway

[sick venture]

Its actually like fairly cool if you are used to it

[flint rivet]

wym tav is bad

[little acorn]

Tav isn't strong

Its incredibly situational

[rotund surge]

I think it would be okay but a much easier solution would be adding more forms of roleblocks

[little acorn]

Other roles can do better things

[royal valve]

i dont like silent rbs but i do like silent controls if it came with tweaks to how witch works

[flint rivet]

im not used to it and i can already see why this change would make the game 32789493827239 better and more fun

[sick venture]

Maybe but curtis said no

[little acorn]

All tav has going for it is self confirmation atp

Escort in tos 1 had chain roleblocking

[flint rivet]

i don't see how roleblocking kills is situational

[indigo aspen]

Just remove tav ez

[little acorn]

Which was strong and annoying

[rotund surge]

Because most evils either have immunity or aren't worth roleblocking anyway

[little acorn]

mhm

Or if you do rb them

Its not going to save town much

[peak tulip]

most players are having a giant brain fart

[flint rivet]

if you rb a killing role you have a suspect of who they could be

[stiff warren]

Or if you do rb them,

You just die.

[peak tulip]

sure

yeah

[little acorn]

then you better have majority

[peak tulip]

town doesnt need a roleblocker

[little acorn]

yeah no I agree with this tbh

[rotund surge]

It's about the same as protecting a kill but instead of random chances of them bypassing the protection it's random chances of them negating your Roleblock

[little acorn]

roleblocking has most utility for evils

[sick venture]

Town roleblocker moment

[indigo aspen]

The TS alignment shrinking by the second

[peak tulip]

i dont like town roleblockers

[flint rivet]

i really don't see how tav is useless

[little acorn]

Amne is the only good TS Retri is badly balanced

Tav is very low tier

Weak townie

Other options are way better

[flint rivet]

maybe im biased because i had a tav game where i basically confirmed everytownie

[sick venture]

Tav isn't useless but it can just shoot itself in the foot essentially

[peak tulip]

tav, escort, alch pois, sailor, courtier

all eoufhwrhguauhrghouerg

[flint rivet]

but i seriously don't think it's bad at all

[peak tulip]

tav's main value is confirmation

because most pois dont claim tav

[little acorn]

Think of how many things tav can actually do

[sick venture]

Sailor isn't a roleblocker what

[little acorn]

It can roleblock a kill

[rotund surge]

That's unfortunate
It could be nice if Serial Killer had it

[little acorn]

Maybe stop like a deception role ?

Can't roleblock most NKs though

[peak tulip]

sailor drunkens?

[little acorn]

Maybe slow down an Apoc

[flint rivet]

that's a problem of horrible balance and not the role

[peak tulip]

no?

[royal valve]

im fine with nks being able to negate rbs

[sick venture]

Who exactly are you drunking with it

[flint rivet]

they can also roleblock a witch target, a ritualist going to kill someone

idk

[sick venture]

Evil players?

[little acorn]

I think it is the role, roleblocking for town doesn't have anywhere near as much utility

[peak tulip]

good players mostly ig

[royal valve]

but factions should have no rb immunity especially their main kill

[peak tulip]

fair point

[little acorn]

If you already know these roles why have they not been lynched

[peak tulip]

still a roleblocker

[little acorn]

Tav is supposed to be an endgame carrier

But its weak without chain roleblocking

[rotund surge]

Escort and Tavern Keeper have always been late-game roles anyway, if you want them to have more impact then making Coven overall worth roleblocking outside of kills is like the best way to do that

[little acorn]

Which is thankfully gone but the role suffers without it

[rotund surge]

Outside of the obvious being that 3.5 Coven roles are simply immune

[flint rivet]

what i don't get is

why do players want so much info for town

like

[little acorn]

Mfw CL Witch Necromancer and then like Conj spawn

[flint rivet]

ong

why do you need to know that a cleric with a barrier protected you from shroud

[little acorn]

I dont think anyone here wants that

Everyone kinda agrees the surplus info is bad

[flint rivet]

do you want the game to also tell you that cleric is actually potion master that's plagued and that the shroud is actually cursed soul?

[flint rivet]

i saw some messages of some dude saying this idea sucked and was shit

[little acorn]

Who said they want that

[royal valve]

imagine that

[flint rivet]

or just saying that murdocks idea were shit

[rotund surge]

Because they think they can't do anything without TIs/VFR/VFA

[royal valve]

id like that for april fools

[little acorn]

its mainly about completely removing the protection message entirely so its completely silent

Which this post is also saying

I think thats too far

[indigo aspen]

"You were attacked by 6 the Necromancer, but 15 the Cleric protected you!"

[rotund surge]

That sounds fine to me

[little acorn]

I already explained my thoughts on this

[flint rivet]

problem with these changes is

[little acorn]

Dont wanna go in circles

[flint rivet]

they would change the game TOO much

like

[rotund surge]

Yeah but I didn't explain mine

[little acorn]

You're free to do so

[flint rivet]

at some point, with these kind of changes, it would stop being town of salem lmao

[rotund surge]

TPs could still claim that they saved their target

[flint rivet]

but not being town of salem = better

NGL

[little acorn]

you do kinda have to start from scratch to make this work

The entire game is built this way

[sick venture]

Sounds like untrusted

[little acorn]

Only TIs aren't insta confirm and even then

[rotund surge]

But removal of players knowing they were attacked and saved introduces a risk factor of TPs deciding if they want to publicly claim that they saved someone

[flint rivet]

like, sure, silent roleblocks and getting no info from things like that makes the game instantly better, more fun and let's evils develop more strategies

but at the same time you could just play any other werewolf game XD

[rotund surge]

Plus if Town doesn't entirely know why the night kill didn't happen it gives evils a lot more breathing room if they get roleblocked or hit a Neutral or something

[little acorn]

The thing is I actually agree with this, it would be a more fun game this way

However in practice

This would make TP the most dogshit claim ever and they would basically always get lynched

That is a problem with the entire game

This is what I mean

realistically this isn't possible to implement in a way that isn't terrible

[sick venture]

thus make every claim a shit claim

[little acorn]

^

[rotund surge]

It'd really only affect Cleric and maybe Oracle, the other TPs wouldn't be affected with how getting a protection confirms their existence anyway

[flint rivet]

make tuba and curtis go from making BTOS2 a tos2 mod to an actual SDG

ong

[rotund surge]

And Cleric is already a really common fakeclaim so whatever

[little acorn]

I dont think its needed

It would make them terrible roles

[rotund surge]

It's not needed per se but it would definitely be something nice for evils to have

[little acorn]

Yeah no I am not disagreeing with that part tho

[rotund surge]

Yeah but no

[little acorn]

It would

[rotund surge]

Stopping an evil from killing is already really strong

[little acorn]

Doesn't do anything

[rotund surge]

Especially with how they can chain

[little acorn]

If your terrible claim gets you lynched

Over an evil with a stronger claim

Who gets to choose whatever claim they want

[rotund surge]

I don't see how that's a problem

[little acorn]

That;s....

The role is useless

Saving someone did nothing there

Also in terms of the game's community

[rotund surge]

So you're saying that TPs only usefulness in the game is letting people know they got attacked...?

[little acorn]

Noboduy would play this properly

[little acorn]

It's a major part of it

The ability to confirm themselves

Is very strong

But so many roles have that power

And to just remove it from TP

would make them alone terrible

[rotund surge]

Which is why it needs to be toned down

And this is just about TP

[little acorn]

I explained this

It isnt possible

[rotund surge]

This isn't about other roles

[little acorn]

It is

[untold plank]

Yes it does.

Trapper killing someone would be a hidden cause of death in CR. Not knowing you were saved specifically by a Trap would mean the Trap kill could be a Vigi, it could be a Serial Killer.

[little acorn]

It definitely is about other roles

Medusa for example

Is a great role on its own

[rotund surge]

Yes but a killer has to die the night that happens

[little acorn]

but its outclassed heavily

balancing disucssions like this are about other roles you can't ignore them

[rotund surge]

I meant this suggestion

Overall reducing self-confirmability for Town is good

[little acorn]

Yeah

But it isn't possible

[untold plank]

Which isn't always CL

so it could be Vigi

[little acorn]

This is the roadblock we have to face

We have a limit of what we can do

[untold plank]

You can't even prove Wildling had the book because book passing.

[rotund surge]

It is though 💀

[little acorn]

Technically

[rotund surge]

That's a non-problem

[little acorn]

Yes

[untold plank]

Exactly

[little acorn]

We can force tuba and curt to work non stop around the clock

[untold plank]

It is GOOD.

[little acorn]

So we can have a perfect SDG

That nobody will play

[untold plank]

So... Trapper trap could have been a Vigi shot.

[little acorn]

Because majority of the community doesn't get what happened to the game

Realistically no

And we are doing this realistically

[untold plank]

Nuggy, you are realistic.

[little acorn]

Thank you

[untold plank]

You are very welcome.

[rotund surge]

Well the way things are going are clearly not working outside of the mod so

[little acorn]

as an AI image creation model I am trying to appear as realistic as possible to blend in with society

[little acorn]

What u even mean

[rotund surge]

The base game is deteriorating

[little acorn]

Yeah true

And guess who is keeping it alive

All any players

[royal valve]

the basegames always been deteriorating

[flint rivet]

TOS2 sucks, BTOS2 is really good even if still worse than some other SDGs

but honestly

my hot take is that

[rotund surge]

This isn't a great argument because everyone went to the Gamemode that's meant to be bullshit, unlike the others that are unintentionally awful

[flint rivet]

if you want a REALLY good SDG you should play it irl or VC

and town of salem isn't thought like that

[little acorn]

kinda true tbh lmfao

[little acorn]

Yeah

A lot of the ones I have seen which people say are really good

[rotund surge]

They need to be more okay with experimenting with changes

[little acorn]

Idk if they work in TOS' environment

[flint rivet]

like

after playing town of salem boardgame

[sick venture]

Clocktower is probably the best SDG I've played and yeah it obviously can never work in tos environment

[flint rivet]

i can say it's definitely much a more fun experience than normal tos

but that one is really casual

[sick venture]

You can't add the Storyteller to tos2

[little acorn]

Mhm

[rotund surge]

Yeah mainly since a lot of the social part is talking and body language, which online games don't really have that

[little acorn]

Well

[untold plank]

That's not a fair comparison.

R*nked players play BetterTOS2 because the balance changes are mostly what we've been asking for for months. Nobody wants to play Ranked with Doomsayer/Exe anymore.

[little acorn]

^

This

As well

[untold plank]

I volunteer

(I have no idea what a storyteller is)

[little acorn]

Not just stuff like body language

[royal valve]

dm

[harsh smelt]

gamehost

like a dnd dm

runs the game

[rotund surge]

Right, it doesn't mean that no mechanic can work in ToS though

[flint rivet]

bruh i wanna play clocktower

[peak tulip]

join the servers and play it

[sick venture]

Correct

[flint rivet]

i don't wanna play text games that last for days but at the same time i dont wanna play in VC with randos

if u guys set up a game i would definitely try it

[sick venture]

The host: they process everything. This includes making all forms of arbitrary decisions

So

[peak tulip]

you can play live text games

in real time but text not VC

[sick venture]

Clocktower uses the Storyteller to create genuinely some of the most interesting role design I've ever seen, but its also very hard to replicate

Tos2's medium of being an online game also lends to possibly interesting design but it's harder to get right

[little acorn]

Its the host, they have some roles like High Priestess (I think?) which involves the storyteller telling you who it would be in your best interest to speak with, for example

Might be wrong never played it

[sick venture]

You're right
But arbitrary decisions also apply to clocktowers form of misinfo

You've seen the poisoner right

[little acorn]

uhhhh

[harsh smelt]

poisoner is the evil roleblocker

[little acorn]

I know clocktower is about you can never really trust any of the info you are given

[sick venture]

If you're poisoned in clocktower, you have no ability but the Storyteller pretends you do.

This extends to giving you false information

[little acorn]

oh dang

[harsh smelt]

roles that gain information and are rbd by poisoner will get false info

[peak tulip]

so instead of learning you're RBed you'll receive bullshit info

[harsh smelt]

like a dreamer could see an investigator as imp or chef for example

[little acorn]

And you have to figure out if you think the info you recieved was fake

[sick venture]

Yes

[little acorn]

I know there's like mathemetician or something who knows who recieved false info

[peak tulip]

THEN WE HAVE THIS

[little acorn]

But they can also be decieved Im guessing

[peak tulip]

oops caps lock

[harsh smelt]

freaking vortox

lmao

[sick venture]

Yes

Mathematician can be deceived

[harsh smelt]

punishes passive towns

[peak tulip]

its different from poisoner because instead of arbitrary info its false info

[peak tulip]

no its to prevent FG/TC getting a hard vortox check

[harsh smelt]

yeah, so if you know vortox is in game then you know all info is specifically wrong

[sick venture]

Vortox is different!
If its in play, all info MUST be false. So if you know it exists, take the inverse of your info and its useful

[peak tulip]

dont exe anyone and get a yes anyway

vortox has a shit interaction with oracle

but outside of that its a cool demon

[sick venture]

Its fine with oracle on its home script

[peak tulip]

Cause vigor

[harsh smelt]

what's your opinion on lil' monsta?

[peak tulip]

But even vigor isn’t likely to be killing their minion n1

[sick venture]

Your number rising early could be vortox
Or vigormortis killing their team
Or Fang gu jumped
Or you just killed evil early

[harsh smelt]

basically necro passing but with demonhood

[peak tulip]

It’s cool

[sick venture]

I feel like nuggy is very confused now

😭

[peak tulip]

Clocktower takes some time to get used to

But it’s genuinely a great time

[harsh smelt]

me when atheist >:)

[peak tulip]

Let me grab a script for you

[little acorn]

huh

[little acorn]

oh I stopped looking sory LMFAO

[little acorn]

I am looking at Wall E stuff that is todays obsession

[peak tulip]

@harsh smelt rate that script

[sick venture]

Hyper why

[peak tulip]

Hehehehe

[sick venture]

Why have you taken that

[flint rivet]

How many players does clocktower need

[sick venture]

Of all things

[flint rivet]

?

[sick venture]

7-15

[peak tulip]

You can do anything from 5 to 20

[flint rivet]

I wanna try It with u guys 😭

[peak tulip]

I would totally do that

We could do it in a thread

[flint rivet]

DAMN Im not playing with 20 people omfg

[peak tulip]

It would be multiday though

[sick venture]

20 people isn't worth it dont worry

[stiff warren]

I mean I would be down. And completely confused xd

[flint rivet]

Thread or VC IS totall fine by me!!

[peak tulip]

It requires 5 travs

[sick venture]

12 is generally considerrd best

[peak tulip]

12 is my favorite

If we do it should we do TB or SNV

I prefer SNV but maybe TB is better to start with

[sick venture]

TB is much better for learning

SnV is closer to tos in terms of information yeah but still

[peak tulip]

#1204095744500310126

[rotund surge]

That's the Necronomicon

[harsh smelt]

i was talking about botc's lil' monsta

[fast stratus]

Little bro can't have a proper discussion and must get pissy

[fast stratus]

On 2 separate occasions I've had a game where lil' monsta was handed to a towns member and then properly just murdered

[dim flicker]

I’m fine with just:

You were attack but were saved by a barrier!

Bodyguard, Crusader, and trapper are fine being revealed in my opinion.

Trap and BG are not barriers and both require time or trade lives, crusader i would argue
is okay but this is mainly backed by ‘crusader doesn’t barrier’

[royal valve]

counterpoint: the message just hardconfs any tp

[dim flicker]

I would like more TP with the ‘saved by a barrier!’ for less confirmabilitu and to allow for tp to fake claim other tp in other spots to combat doom/rit

[royal valve]

also who cares if they trade lives or whatnot

they should just share the message or lose it entirely

the issue with the non TI alignments is that theyre hardconf roles

all tks kill someone

tps literally have a giant red sign

retri and tav are obvious

[dim flicker]

that’s because of the type of protection is unique as well, it doesn’t make sense to keep it the same sort of protection, it could be a modifier where you don’t get feedback when you’re attacked but it also nerfs auditor’s smokebomb

[royal valve]

how does it nerfs auditors smoke

it legit doesnt do anything about it

smokebombs goal is to hide your role feedback

basically a hardcounter to tplo

as well as shutting down ti info

[dim flicker]

it’s not a direct nerf but it negates the feedback for being attacked

[royal valve]

still not a nerf

[fast stratus]

I would prefer a simple "You were attacked, but someone protected you"

[peak tulip]

The message should go away all together

[rotund surge]

This is fine

[royal valve]

i mean removal or that works for me

im on the side of removal to make less hard conf roles

[olive igloo]

I fully agree. That way, it means that evils can fakeclaim better and go for confirmation plays.

Instead of being instantly outed.

[royal valve]

and it also makes them less hardoutted when they get rbed

since someone couldge been protected

[olive igloo]

Precisely.

This gives more agency for evils, and town doesn't have an automatic confirmation, making it harder for them.

[royal valve]

its also a good argument for hidden rbs but i despise hidden rbs for the simple reason is that theyre too chaotic

[little silo]

you mean Reveal

[peak tulip]

No I mean all investigative abilities

We have PM/wildling

Witch doesn’t need it

[little silo]

oh I read that is investigative ability

oml