#ButteRyBalance

1 messages · Page 8 of 1

signal stream
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thats not a patreon post

daring oar
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optimization is not fun for a lot of people and i'm sure he'd rather release more content than have to do it

analog cypress
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i can say this myself as i play this at average 30 fps with a lot of optimizations mods and have to filter out the QoL mods

daring oar
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and also i know you are a believer in this so i don't have to explain to you, but optimization is pretty much bonus in early access

analog cypress
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And that's because my pc doesn't support the fog

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you don't wish to know

signal stream
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It's also like, to an extent I don't even think the game is unoptimised, in the sense that the two major reasons for it's performance are DunGen and HDRP

analog cypress
daring oar
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that being said, it is still the only thing that i'd argue people should look into before playing the game

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regardless of their technical skill or interest in mods

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there are a bunch of optimization mods that make 0 changes to basegame content and make it way more accessible, and mod managers are pretty easy to set up with minimal knowledge, so i think it's a huge benefit

raven patrol
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The only big issue with the game is the networking, if that were improved like 99% of its current objective issues would be fixed

daring oar
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i don't think the game is that unoptimized either

signal stream
daring oar
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but playing the game without cullfactory is pretty archaic

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for example

signal stream
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Yeah interior culling is the biggest solvable problem

daring oar
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the latest versions of cullfactory are indistinguishable from vanilla and boost performance a ton, so i'd argue nobody shouldn't be using it

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there are a few other mods i'd lump into that as well

signal stream
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Not that you disagree but I do wanna acknowledge how long it's taken Zaggy to make that though

daring oar
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lethalperformance and pathfindinglagfix are the other big ones

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oh yeah asyncloggers

analog cypress
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nvidia mx130 Trollface

daring oar
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reverbtriggerfix

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that's maybe all of the "pure performance boost" mods

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i think

daring oar
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the amount of effort that goes into some of these mods fills me with a small sense of dread

analog cypress
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money issue

daring oar
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because i assume they will never be officially adopted into vanilla, at least not to the same degree of quality

raven patrol
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Matty’s fixes is up there for me, patches orphaned radar icons from sold scrap and helps make lamps not spawn inside kitchen counters

daring oar
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just because zeekerss has his hands full with everything else about the game

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but it does make me happy that adibtw (the loadstone dev) made a huge post about dungen optimizations in the zeekcord bug reports channel

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and most of the big names here (matty, zaggy, 1a3, you) have made some other posts in there that could be of use once the channel starts being used again

raven patrol
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Hopefully he reads it

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Long posts can be scary

daring oar
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any improvement is still improvement, although i feel like it's inevitable there will always be stuff for the modding community to improve anyway

signal stream
daring oar
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lol

raven patrol
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I hope you have had fun

daring oar
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i consider LC mods a nice portfolio piece

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i guess

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but yeah

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definitely would've been nice to be paid for the amount of work that goes into these things

signal stream
raven patrol
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We may disagree on things and people may give you trouble for LLL not being 100% stable but your contributions to the community are undeniable, much thanks 🙏

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You too Buttery

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Btw can I have a link to this

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It seems I have some homework to do

crude pier
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I wonder if it'll be a game over type ending or if it'll be another layer of difficulty that you unlock that allows you to go for even harder runs/quotas

runic cobalt
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Oh yeah that's true tbh, completely forgot those exist

runic cobalt
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I'd have to ask the host why he insists on keeping it out again its been a hot minute since I asked

jagged nexus
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I mean you played with it when we played for the 600 follower stream

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it works fine

daring oar
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never encountered issues with it either, outside of one-off hotfix patches that were corrected less than a day later

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i actually turned it off earlier today to test something and i was kind of surprised how used i've gotten to it

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i saw the "apparatus machine" get culled on screen because it was at the end of the hallway and totally forgot vanilla did that cuz i havent seen it in months

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Lol

runic cobalt
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Lol, I like it too though since I'm usually only ever testing I don't use it since it's a bit annoying having it cull the interior when I'm trying to check stuff there

analog cypress
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weird request but, it's possible to add an feature that guarantees that apparatus will always spawn on Factory?

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Also, saw this on the wiki and i'm starting to doubt every information so i'll check here first

image.png
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if it's true Offense is taking the L again

vapid pier
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What

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Is this not including the other interiors

analog cypress
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Apparatus can't spawn on other interiors?

daring oar
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"bug", i guess

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the apparatus is guaranteed to generate inside one of two factory rooms

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it only doesn't generate if, for some reason, the entire interior generates without spawning either of those rooms

vapid pier
daring oar
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i have no idea how to fix it (while minimally impacting other aspects of generation) because i have absolutely no experience working with dungen

daring oar
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rend and dine are so low because they are almost never factory

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this table offers no new information because it's just identical to the chance factory generates on that map

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as the caption suggests

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The spawn chance of Apparatus is the same as moon's Factory spawn chance.

daring oar
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because they both generate the smallest factories of any map in the game

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even then, most of the time, it's there

analog cypress
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i didn't notice that it was referring to the chance of an factory spawning, I misinterpreted

signal stream
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In your defence it’s a silly table that likely only exists out of item page consistency

daring oar
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probably yeah

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that was my thought

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anyway

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the table isnt even up to date because the interior chances changed again in v64

analog cypress
daring oar
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well, if i was gonna mess with dungen, this would be the place to do it

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i already rescale the mineshaft and rescale some of the maps, which would cause desync if not for the fact that this mod networks it

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i just don't want to impact factory generation (outside of uniform scaling) because i think it's fine

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the only change i would make is guaranteeing that the dungeon must have at least one of the two apparatus rooms

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but idk how to do that

signal stream
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Idk if you can in a way that preserves the current generation

daring oar
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yea

analog cypress
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you can ask to the loadstone dev i guess greed

daring oar
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i guess the caveman way of doing it would be to generate the dungeon

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count the rooms

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and regenerate the whole dungeon with another seed if it doesn't fit the criteria

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brute forcing like that would probably work okay, since this bug is skewed to affect the smaller maps rather than the large ones

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and it's such a rare occurrence you'd probably be pretty close to guaranteed to find a good seed with only 1 or 2 attempts

analog cypress
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imagine having an extreme bad luck and be stuck on loading screen for lots of time

signal stream
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I think SDM does that

daring oar
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but that seems like a lot of trouble for what is such a minor issue anyway

signal stream
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Semi offtopic but you’d probably have fun messing with dungen generation

daring oar
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beforehand, it would have been terrible to get a map without the apparatus, because you had to use it to recharge the elevator or you couldn't continue

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but now the apparatus is just a drill part that can't even be used yet

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and a pretty lackluster piece of scrap that makes your life worse when you pick it up

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Lol

analog cypress
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i mean, it's good when it's close to the main entrance

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or fire exit

daring oar
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well im not saying it isn't worth grabbing it

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it's worth money and you should definitely go for it if you are able to

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i just dont think it's so good that it demands over-engineering a solution to force it to spawn

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in the rare situation of failure

analog cypress
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it's even weird that Zeekerss didn't guarantee it being able to spawn everytime

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The bug turned into feature

daring oar
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tbh id just guess it didnt fail often enough that he needed to fix it early in development

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and also pretty early into development, the elevator got completely scrapped, so there was no longer an incentive to even fix it once he reached that point

analog cypress
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sad that the elevator got scrapped, it would been cool if at least Experimentation was the only moon that used him

raven patrol
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If I were to ask to tweak one thing about dungeon generation it would be to make Fire exits spawn a minimum distance apart

signal stream
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not how it works

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doable but

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dungeon generation isn't aware of the fire exits

raven patrol
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It isn’t aware of App room either yet Buttery outlined ways of doing it

signal stream
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it is aware of app room

raven patrol
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I meant in the sense it should be guaranteed in factory

signal stream
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ok but that is saying a different thing

raven patrol
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Well sorry for asking then

signal stream
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im just explaining that fixing that wouldn't be via dungeon tweaking

raven patrol
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The way you just show up in seconds with a dry “not how it works” just comes off as hostile

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Call me sensitive

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I suppose you get this request a lot though so it must be a tired topic

analog cypress
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These are probably two special cases that the dungeon gen should account but doesn't...

Generate at least one room that guarantees an apparatus on Factory
There can't be more than 1 fire exit at the same room

daring oar
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the apparatus and fire exit make use of the exact same system internally

analog cypress
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Both aren't treated because there are only a few cases that happens

daring oar
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but it is a little more complicated to address the problem of fire exit spacing vs. apparatus' whole "not existing" thing

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what is happening is that the dungeon is being generated

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it places all the rooms and connects them through doorways

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empty doorways have a blocker object placed instead

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and then after the entire map is generated, it populates the dungeon with random props

signal stream
daring oar
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each of the doorway blockers has a potential fire exit object that it "can spawn" (technically it's already there, just inactive)

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and the two rooms with the apparatus machine, likewise, have invisible apparatus machines

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the dungeon will select one of the apparatus machines at complete random and activate it

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and will select either 1 or 3 of the fire exits and activate them

daring oar
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the same bug can also affect fire exits if certain seeds generate a dungeon without any doorway blockers, which is why you sometimes get the "This entrance appears to be blocked." thing

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although that's a lot more rare because doorway blockers are much more numerous

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you are practically guaranteed that at least one will exist unless you exclusively get a starting room and maze tiles, because fire exits do not exist on the maze tile's blockers

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anyways

daring oar
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the problem with fire exits is that the prop system used to randomly choose the fire exit to activate has no concept of distance or weight

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it picks from the list completely at random (based on a seed, obv, but that's it)

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it is kind of a clever way to implement the system with minimal work on zeekerss' part, but it does fall prey to the limitations of dungen's primitive prop system

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i feel like you could pretty easily just unplug fire exits from the interior's prop list

analog cypress
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Playing on the same seed could result in fire exits spawning at different places?

daring oar
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and write your own code to generate a list of all the deactivated fire exits, and then pick from them using your own criteria (presumably distance checks from other entrances, not sure if anything else has surfaced complaints?)

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you'd just need to do that pretty early in the generation process

signal stream
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dungen has hooks to do this kinda thing btw

daring oar
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the fire exit's teleporter is placed on the host's end and it's just positionally synced to all other players, which is why interior desync usually causes you to fall out of the map when you enter through the fire exit

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you enter through fire exit at the host's spot, but there's no collision there to catch you on your client

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i guess you do have the option to just relocate the entrance teleport after you select a new fire exit, just seems like a bunch of extra work + each client would have to be told to do it since it'd already be network spawned

daring oar
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i just mean it's random because there is no additional criteria

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the game just makes a giant list of "here's all the potential fire exits" and any one of them is chosen

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all clients will pick the same one, and if they don't, it means their seed desynced (which would result in a completely different interior layout anyhow)

daring oar
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or you can get a fire exit on the opposite end of the caves from main, but behind a locked door with nowhere to go

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or why you can get 3 fire exits in the exact same room on march

vague pewter
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What exactly is the fix for the ear ringing duration of the shotgun in meleefixes? (askin bc I kinda liked how the ear ringing worked but I can't really tell whats changed)

daring oar
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when it is fired within 5 units of your position (absolute point blank range) it is supposed to make your ears ring for 0.8s

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but when it is fired within 15 units, it's only supposed to be 0.5s of ear ringing

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the problem is that there is no else statement between these two cases

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so if it's within 5 units, it gets set to 0.8s, then immediately overridden to 0.5s

image.png
vague pewter
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Ah ok, so does that mean it will now ring for longer when it goes off closer to you like it should?

daring oar
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yes

vague pewter
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Ty for the fix and ty for the answer!

unreal ginkgo
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Yes

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Also, I should've specified

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Most of them walk in place, but some are free for some reason

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But disabling the restored v64 behavior frees all of them

ripe tartan
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How does the Barber infestation work if all settings that allow you to increase the number of Barbers are false? (first setting in ButteRyBalance and all settings in BarberFixes)

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(i still like the idea of having a Barber infestation, even if i dont like having more than one normally)

stable hill
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full source is in the changelog

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and downloaded files (cruiser.cs)

raven patrol
daring oar
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barber infestations do not occur in mineshafts

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(at least, not unless you use clay surgeon overhaul)

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you could technically use the setting without increasing barber count

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but like

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you probably shouldn't

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it will just make the game really boring

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because you'll get 1 barber and 1-2 other monsters

marble spruce
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i.e them not spawning in mineshafts is something i dont mind

daring oar
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if you want klay world to work in mineshafts

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then i kind of have to assume any time clay surgeon overhaul assigns a barber infestation

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it should just default to a barber infestation

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because without reading your config there's no confirmation it was randomly selected or guaranteed by klay world

marble spruce
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oh

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lol

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maybe i should just update on my end lol

raven patrol
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iirc Klay World is not just infestations, it makes it so Barbers are literally the only entity that spawns. So if you could detect that no other entities are set to spawn then it would denote Klay World

marble spruce
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klay world forces infestations on each day

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i was too lazy to write it any other way

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@daring oar wasnt i doing some stupid shit causing some curve to be instantiated on each tick

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i remember you telling me about that but i forgot

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if you could remind me what it is i needed to fix that would be neat lol

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also... i think i did something wrong with the skins

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i have them randomized based on seed

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but it appears that when surgeons spawn in pairs, that pair always has the same skin as each other

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kind of unintended but i dont really mind

daring oar
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the power level is set to (barber power level * barber max spawns)

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which will usually guarantee that only barbers will spawn

raven patrol
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Ah my bad

daring oar
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klay world just makes any day that's not a hoarding bug or nutcracker infestation a barber infestation i believe

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maybe it overrides HB/NC infestations too, have to check

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anyways the barber infestations in this mod work sort of similarly

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having 8 barbers combined with other normal enemies would be pretty terrible

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so right now it sets power level to a random number between 0-3 and guarantees all 8 barbers will spawn throughout the day

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but right now it doesn't actually verify that barbers have a max count above 1 before it allows the infestation to occur

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so if barbers are capped at 1 they will basically just blacklist other spawns for no reason

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i will address that in the next patch

daring oar
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completely different threat catalog

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i think if barbers worked the same as other infestations it'd probably be pretty terrible

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but only having 1-2 other power level 1 entities is maybe too forgiving

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im not sure

raven patrol
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Maybe like half power level, rounded down

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Experimentation would be 2 power while Artifice would be 6. Titan would be the highest at 9

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That would be my idea, it is meant to be harder than a normal day

daring oar
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that could work yeah

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no harm in trying

raven patrol
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Anyway I wanted to ask, does the setting to add Bees to Offense increase the spawn curve at all? Now that I am aware that Offense’s ultra low curve is the real culprit

daring oar
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yes

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if you enable offense bees

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it adds them to the spawn table (with 31 weight)

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so ~24% chance

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basically

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and it increases the spawn curve value at 6 AM to around -1.25

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whenever the first spawn wave happens, it'll sample the curve, add a random value (-10, 9) to it

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and then that number is the amount of "spawn slots" that will be rolled

daring oar
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i didn't actually do any math or testing to see how common bees were on offense compared to assurance

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my guess is that offense will still have a pretty low average chance of bees

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and if it still feels bad maybe i could bump it up a bit

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but i do think bees should mainly be a forest moon characteristic, and it should just be a special "lucky day" encounter on the deserts

raven patrol
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I am fine with rare bees

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Having absolutely 0 just feels cruel though, especially for an underpowered moon in vanilla

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Offense does have a rather high Daytime Spawn Deviation which helps Bees

daring oar
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yeah

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10 is what assurance used to have, for comparison's sake

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(because assurance = offense haha get it anyways)

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at some point zeekerss lowered assurance to 8 and if i had to guess it was probably to reduce the commonality of bees

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although reducing the spawn deviation doesn't really affect the average, just highs and lows

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because the whole point is the spawn deviation controls how much it can deviate from the average, which is a fixed value

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maybe he also lowered the curve when he nerfed it to 8

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i didn't actually check

raven patrol
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Did you leave the Off daytime power at 20

daring oar
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yeah but there's not really a point in changing it anyway

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the only other thing in the spawn pool is manticoils which at best can take up 16 of those slots

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at most you can have 6 bees worth 6 power level

raven patrol
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Oh yeah not complaining, it just is funny how many Manticoils there may be now

daring oar
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and the absolute maximum enemies you'll get during the first spawn wave is 7

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the first spawn wave being the only one that can generate bees anyway

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in this case bees are mostly just impacted by the spawn weight of manticoils which i don't see reason to change *yet

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but it is a tool for future tweaking, should it feel necessary

daring oar
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but tbh that's fine

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manticoils are funny and zeekerss made them leave moons way earlier in the day in one of the recent updates

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i think they leave at like 12:30 now when they used to leave at 5 or something

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so i think by the time offense starts to heat up most of the dodos will be gone anyway

raven patrol
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I do wonder why he changed that

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I kinda liked them leaving as the sun is going down to strengthen the transition to the ominous night

daring oar
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honestly no clue

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i think manticoils just started being a much bigger part of endgame

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since artifice actually had the capacity to spawn them

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and maybe he just felt like they were out of place in that lategame stage

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that sort of leads into an unrelated conversation

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i do think lethal company would benefit from a lot more fine control being granted to individual scenarios

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right now the game gets away with a lot of simple rules

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like the illusion that manors have high value loot like paintings, fancy lamps, golden cups, etc.

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i call it an illusion because that good loot is actually a characteristic of the moon

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and it only feels like it's "manor loot" because it's common on all the moons that commonly spawn manors

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but rend/dine factories will still have manor loot

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and it's even more obvious with dineshaft spawning manor loot now in v60

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he did implement a way for specific enemies to be more common in specific interiors

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and right now that system is exclusively used by the maneater for mineshafts

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but it's a very rigid system

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you can only define 1 interior, and that interior always applies a flat 1.7x mult to its weight

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there's no sliding scale with support for multiple interiors

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i think it'd be cool if you could define overrides for different enemies/items on different levels/interiors

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it would allow for a lot more dynamic "sliding scale" interactions

raven patrol
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Central Config has settings for these (I think) so it is possible

daring oar
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like barbers having 10% spawn chance on mineshafts because they are terrible to play against there, or fancy lamps being rarer in factories and mineshafts but having bonus chance in manors

daring oar
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manticoils could be made to leave later in the day on endgame moons via overrides

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but could stay present for longer in the earlier moons

raven patrol
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Maybe they caused problems with the Old Birds, like the Old Birds targeted them but had trouble killing the tiny targets

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Like if Manticoils were chilling on top of a warehouse they would occupy Old Bird aggro until 5pm

daring oar
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i might be wrong (i've never actually paid attention to this in game) but it looks like manticoils lack the functionality to be targeted by old birds

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in fairness i've made that incorrect assumption before

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like for a while i didn't think hoarding bugs could actually hear audio because their AI was missing some components, but that was just because i didn't understand all the underlying systems that connect to make audio propogation work, at the time

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i still need to figure out what makes manticoils just bug the fuck out

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and spin around in circles

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i have no idea if it broke at some point in the game's update history or if it was always broken

raven patrol
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Actually it could be that their death animation being bugged is why they leave early. Having them leave before Dogs and Old Birds that can kill them spawn reduces the chance of normal players seeing this

jagged nexus
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They've always done this after dying iirc

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I can't remember playing a version of the game where they didn't spin out

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Lol

raven patrol
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Maybe the being mortal is actually unintentional, since both types of Bees and Spore Lizards are immortal

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Tulip Snakes have to be mortal for gameplay reasons

jagged nexus
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Nah I just don't think they were ever given a proper death animation

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Cus you can run them other with the Cruiser for example

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If they weren't meant to be killed he likely would have fixed that when that was added

runic cobalt
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i dont think they were made with anything like the cruiser being made in mind

jagged nexus
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Probably not lol

runic cobalt
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but anyway

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their death is intentional

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or atleast i'd hope so because he made a death soun

jagged nexus
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Mhm

daring oar
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so that doesn't seem to be the whole picture

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at least

runic cobalt
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oh nvm they do have a death animation

daring oar
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yea

raven patrol
daring oar
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it is definitely possible

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on the topic of maskfixes

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that's what caused the whole enter/exit bug with masked constantly using the entrances

raven patrol
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Maybe their AI being disabled when they die bugs any intended death animation for some reason. Does not affect anything else though

runic cobalt
raven patrol
raven patrol
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Just speculation

runic cobalt
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dunno, cant preview their animations properly for some reason in unity, but any type of force kills em and turns on the death animation, i dont see a place where they turn off their AI

daring oar
runic cobalt
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ah

daring oar
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one controls the position of their body relative to their agent and the other is their actual body animations

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you might just have the first one selected

runic cobalt
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probably, im guessing manticoils are one of the first things he did because this seems like just something you'd layer the animator rather than having2

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their death animation is them getting stunned and falling down onto the ground i think

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i really hope this is the ripper doing this and not zeekerss not knowing he can add more conditions to a transition

image.png
crude pier
gritty pebble
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How does this mod choose what moons can have what kinds of infestations?

raven patrol
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I think it is based on the moon’s standard spawn pool, with higher weight emeritus having a higher chance to be selected

balmy pier
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@daring oar have you considered buffing the survival kit or is this also something i missed that you did a change to

unreal ginkgo
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You did not (seemingly) fix this

image.png
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Might be a thing with MoreCompany, not sure

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@balmy pier Send your logs as well

balmy pier
jagged nexus
unreal ginkgo
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Upcoming update?

jagged nexus
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If you use AdditionalNetworking Experimental it should be fixed

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Ye

unreal ginkgo
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I see

jagged nexus
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I was in VC with Matty last night while he was working on the update

unreal ginkgo
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Sweet

raven patrol
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Something I have thought about is that when you run out of oxygen, maybe it would be better to have you take damage over time rather than instantly die. Maybe like 20 damage a second or something, enough that it is impactful but not mega quick.

Sometimes the Mineshaft cave water tile makes me get caught on its geometry, or the air pockets do not work properly, and I just die if I do not act fast enough. It is frustrating and something like this would be good compensation I think

ripe tartan
naive mesa
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We have 10s of oxygen. I always thought the system was kind of scuffed though. You get instakilled from it, and oxygen immediately resets its timer if your head goes above water for a fraction of a second.

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Just nitpicking though. The system works fine itself and it’s rarely something you’ll pay attention to.

jagged nexus
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@daring oar I see why your crouch fix isn't working

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Since Additional Networking has it now you can just remove it probably if you want

hazy stone
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@daring oar you forgot a parameter to the [ServerRpc] annotation 😅

daring oar
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i will update this mod sooner rather than later this time

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so i can fix it spamming logs

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not too long from now

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anyways i only run ServerRpcs on the owner of the respective object (the apparatus, the player object) but i forgot the network object itself is always owned by the host

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so that's my goof

raven patrol
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It definitely has the jankiest collision of all tiles, I cannot get a consistent path

naive mesa
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I have died from it a few times but there are genuine counters like repositioning, but you 5 times out of 10 don’t have enough time and need to go back to re-evaluate

raven patrol
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Huh. I guess I just have skill issue

analog cypress
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Zeekerss got the felling on spot with these water holes

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Cave divers worst nightmare

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The oxygen system is very primitive and works well because the game doesn't focus around water exploration, he'll probably develop it futher when adding Liquidation

raven patrol
#

Liquidation is the one thing I want most 😭

analog cypress
#

Or just don't and make an building on an island

raven patrol
#

He has said Liquidation is meant to have a significant gimmick so I assume the water will not just be aesthetic

naive mesa
#

Has he said anything actually about liquidation besides it being an ocean moon?

#

I didn’t pay attention much about it in v50

raven patrol
#

It has indoor entity and loot tables

#

There also apparently is unused audio for scuba equipment, according to file names

naive mesa
analog cypress
#

As I said previously, water on LC lacks a lot of environment interaction and I hope he develops it in future updates

signal stream
viscid edge
raven patrol
#

Swear I saw something though

unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
#

Iambatby beat you to it, I cannot find a source

unreal ginkgo
#

Hrm

daring oar
#

i would guess you just got a couple different statements mixed up

#

around the time of v50's release and patreon post he confirmed he has 2 "significant non-gimmick moons" he would be interested in adding

#

and v50 was also the first version where liquidation popped up as unused content

#

but also

#

liquidation does, uniquely, have all of the outdoor monsters removed from its spawn list

#

which i think makes a good argument that the water will be significantly transformative for gameplay

#

or at least, he intends for it to be transformative

#

because he went through the effort of deleting all the existing cast from the outdoors

crude pier
#

Eee I can't wait for new LC content

raven patrol
daring oar
#

the reason adamance and artifice have such similar stats is that artifice was created first

#

then he cloned its level definitions and changed them to make adamance

#

liquidation is based off an earlier version of artifice (which was more similar to titan) but one of the most notable manual adjustments is that the enemies were removed

vague pewter
#

What causes the melee bug where you can't swing your shovel anyways? Bc even with the fix it still happens here and there. Just curious if there's any way to mitigate it...

daring oar
#

but when you start to swing a shovel it sets a boolean flag to indicate the shovel is reeling up

#

and while it's reeling, you aren't allowed to activate the item with left click anymore

#

im pretty sure what happens is that if you die while reeling up the shovel, it can sometimes get locked up instead of resetting

#

melee fixes will unmark the shovel as reeling up if any player other than the previous holder picks it up

#

but iirc it might still be possible for it to lock up if you die holding it, then you pick it up next round (dying on the ship with it)

#

if you're aware of a consistent way to replicate it, or aware of it happening in other contexts, let me know and it might require further investigation

vague pewter
#

I think it may have to do with bunkbedrevive and it's tough to figure out because (I think) the shovel works for one swing then stops working

vague pewter
#

Probably false alarm or incompatibility with lethalparrying, my bad. I finally caught it today and this was what hit the log when it did. What I get for using an old mod lol. The weird thing is everything else about lethalparrying works, ig if you hit something it doesn't expect like the cruiser or weird geometry it was causing this to happen.

image.png
daring oar
#

it is definitely possible it is lethal parrying

#

if it's crashing the hitshovel function, i believe it wont run the code that sets reelingUp to false

naive mesa
#

Pretty sure it doesn’t but thought I’d check anyway, does ButteRyBalance increase the chances of events like meteor shower or indoor fog?

#

When I played with my group yesterday we got indoor fog three times and meteor shower once

#

We have no other mods that touch the events so I’m just wondering whether we got lucky or not.

#

On a side note the indoor fog is a lot more bearable in ButteRyBalance. Big fan of that. We could actually play on those moons that day.

daring oar
#

no

#

i dont touch meteor showers at all

#

indoor fog i just change the thickness

#

chances are the same as always

naive mesa
#

Figured.

#

That was quite cool though. Hadn’t had indoor fog that consistent before.

raven patrol
#

I honestly wonder if the stated odds in the wikis are wrong, they seem way too low in my experience

#

Indoor fog is rare but meteor showers happen at least once every other session

#

Maybe the rng generator has some quirks

naive mesa
#

I’ve only had meteor shower 3 times since v65

#

To be fair as of the last few months we hardly played LC at all. Only this last week has my group decided to start playing more again

#

I’m glad since it’s been one of if not my favourite game since early 2024

daring oar
#

meteor shower is a 0.7% chance per day and honestly i would believe it

#

only seen it like 3 times with default odds and all of those times it's just been in testing

#

once every ~140 days on average (with high and low runs existing) seems right

#

infestations are nearly 3% per day and each infestation increases indoor fog chance to 20%

#

with indoor fog being 2% on non-infestation days

raven patrol
#

I need to check if the modpacks I play have RNGConfigurator

naive mesa
#

1/50 makes some sense for indoor fog

raven patrol
#

Only explanation unless I am just lucky

naive mesa
#

I’ve always thought if it was slightly more wight than it should be common on foggy moons

#

In ButteRyBalance I don’t mind it so much now, I might use some mod to make it 1/10 or 1/20 instead of 1/50

raven patrol
naive mesa
#

Although that’d inevitably make it less special

raven patrol
#

Asteroid moons have higher meteor shower chance, blizzard moons with indoor fog chance, forest moons with infestation, etc.

naive mesa
#

Monty made a thread on it and I’ve always loved the idea

#

Meteor shower being upgraded to a much higher chance, like 4%-10% depending on preference I guess on assurance and offense would work really well

#

Since they were both a part of the same moon but broke apart. There’s probably clouds of rocks still in orbit around Big Grin

#

And experimentation too I guess.

raven patrol
#

One day 🙏

daring oar
#

i think it's just because they were added in the same update

#

or at least, same pocket of updates

#

infestations were added for the anniversary on 22-23 and spooky fog 30-31

#

tying them together sort of makes sense

daring oar
#

i have finally pushed the update

#

no new features this time, sorry

#

just fixes

#

haven't spent very much time in the modding space recently

daring oar
#

holy shit you guys

#

just what is the company hiding from us

naive mesa
#

those books better be damn good

raven patrol
#

“Titan is not that bad”

naive mesa
#

and a similar scrap spawning too

#

mostly inspired by offense. You can just imagine offense but with titans turrets and titans max spawnrate of 18.

#

In hindsight nobody in my group has enjoyed going to offense recently like they used to, including me. Maybe its worth actually making it fun to play LOL

raven patrol
#

I do feel like the moon is kinda broken fundamentally, Buttery’s description of it having “hard but mortal” enemies is really cool but the highest Coil-Head spawn rate in the game throws a wrench into that

#

Thumper, Spider, and Hoarding Bug spam would not be that bad if not for them

#

I like your idea of relegating these spawns to Titan, they are more reminiscent of an endgame moon

naive mesa
daring oar
daring oar
#

as of right now i haven't, since coils have adjusted curves and increased power level

#

but i agree that they kind of throw a wrench into offense conceptually (at least, what offense is to me)

#

i was just a bit worried that trimming coilheads from the equation too much would make offense feel less unique

#

offense, while uniquely terrible, is unique and that is a positive quality to some extent

raven patrol
raven patrol
daring oar
#

i rolled a high turret day

#

with the v50 beta turret rates

raven patrol
#

Ah right

daring oar
#

had 3 turrets in main entrance and like 6 in this side room with the landmines

#

crazy stuff

#

seed is 91711558 i was just doing some solo playtesting so i barely explored

#

maybe there's some other cool stuff here

#

there's a gold bar gift box

raven patrol
#

I do not have those turned on because I have custom trap spawn rates

#

I forget how much stuff this mod has

raven patrol
# daring oar

This tricking me into thinking it is Titan reminds me, could this or Fixes have an option to adjust the color temperature of the facility lights, just a simple hexadecimal input like GeneralImprovments? I tried out RebalancedMoons and the white lights on Titan did stick with me

#

Actually wait this should be on Chameleon, my brain is being slow

raven patrol
#

Offense has a shovel’s paradise is cool

daring oar
#

that would belong most in chameleon yes

#

which is sort of indefinite hiatus atm until i feel up to working on it again

#

but i do want to do more with interiors there

raven patrol
#

Sounds good

naive mesa
#

Alongside titans spawn curve (which I chose not to modify), meaning the most recent time we had 2 turrets at fire exit, 3 at main, a thumper at fire and a thumper + coil head at main. It wasn’t the nicest experience.

raven patrol
#

Well my modpack does not adhere to vanilla too closely, so my Titan is quite different. I kept the Turret count the same because I am evil, but lowered the Landmine count and kept the Spike Trap count low. The big thing though is that I bumped up the moon to be a “tier 5” of sorts, costing 2000 credits to route to and having 1900-2400 scrap value range. The danger level was kept largely the same but the profit was scaled up to make it not just a risk-reward moon

#

My Titan is more consistent, but to make it worthwhile you have to say into the later hours when monsters will be out and about. I personally do not like the idea of moons where you are expected to be leaving at a time before 12am (the general Titan strategy is to play fast and be leaving by maybe 6pm)

#

This is just my perspective though, yeah you can stay until 12am on vanilla Titan, but with the way it is designed there will be too many monsters to make looting practical

#

I should also mention my modpack has FairAI, which allows any monster I want (it is very configurable) to trigger traps, including turrets, so trap spam is not quite as bad in my pack because monsters will get killed too

gritty pebble
#

I think this mod may cause some console spam while no players have entered the facility and a maneater is present:

image.png
#

Not 100% sure it's this mod doing it but I don't have any other mod that would be preventing maneaters crying

daring oar
#

i do override the SetCryingLocalClient function (which is making this log) to make baby crying always false unless a player has entered the building

#

but im not sure there is an easy way to avoid that

#

i will have to dig into it

#

ah

daring oar
#

lol

gritty pebble
#

Shouldn't be, no

#

Why do you ask?

daring oar
#

because i realized i never had a check to allow the maneater to cry while it's outside

#

unless a player has been in the building before

#

that is one of the things that could cause this to happen and should probably be fixed

#

but it looks like there are some other criterias for crying that will be sort of inconvenient to work around

raven patrol
#

Just had a thought today, should your SafeSoloScrap mod be merged into this one like v49Jetpacks was? Not sure if it fits your vision for the game but it would fit right in

daring oar
#

safe solo scrap works host-side and is not my vision of game balance

#

i do use it just because it makes the game more playable in smaller lobbies but i dont think balance matters that much below 4 player counts

#

v49 jetpacks was merged so i could make enforcing that host side

fallen musk
daring oar
#

i completely disagree

#

lethal company is a 4 player game with support for any smaller player count, it is true

#

and there are extremely limited instances of compromises made for solo play (like snare flea forgiveness, butler nerfs, etc.)

#

but it is pretty difficult to design a game for both multiplayer and singleplayer and i think it's pretty obvious lethal is not developed with singleplayer in mind

#

lethal company has absolutely no scaling based on player count so it's honestly not ideal with any player count below 4

#

that doesnt mean things need to be designed to be antagonistic to singleplayer, but it is not a focus of mine and not something i care about pursuing

raven patrol
#

I am a little surprised by this, solo lobbies not loosing all their scrap upon death is a (I think) pretty popular opinion since it is a simple way to throw solo players a bone. Solo is a great way to get better at the game and sometimes your friends just do not feel like playing. The atmosphere also hits different while solo

#

Oh well

signal stream
#

changing the game based on player count that arbitrarily would be weird af

marble spruce
#

but its a big thing to change

analog cypress
#

Many different opinions, but i kinda agree that SafeSoloScrap should be something at least in singleplayer

#

Lethal Company does have some changes from multi and single

#

but idk if it should be included in this mod

#

It works fine as an individual mod

daring oar
#

i do think safesoloscrap is better for overall singleplayer balance

#

but i think it makes more sense as a separate release

#

and i dont intend to balance the game around singleplayer anyway, as i've said

#

also i personally use it when we have lobbies of 3 just because it makes the game a lot less strenuous and less likely for us to have to do earlygame again if we wipe in the midgame

#

but i dont think it's actually necessarily good for 3 players, because a better group of players could handle a lot more with -1 player than we could

dry current
#

like reduced butler health and other silly stuff like that is super cool for solo players

dry current
analog cypress
vague pewter
#

Regarding playercount (sort of) would it be possible (or would you be interested in) fixing the tzp high pitch bug with morecompany?

I know it's not technically a vanilla bug, and idk if it's fixable because I've heard it's like an audio overlay thing that's too performance intensive in bigger lobbies - but other voice filters work like being underwater so I'm curious if fixing the tzp pitch would be possible.

daring oar
#

i have spoken with 1a3 about it before

analog cypress
#

That's a problem with MoreCompany itself, ButteryBalance doesn't take into account that

#

but

#

i'm not against

daring oar
#

yeah

#

i think it might be worth expanding to like

#

8 players

#

people aren't really making 50 player lobbies and using tzp

#

i havent looked at the process that'd be required to do that yet

fallen musk
#

Lethal Company is a 4 player game but you shouldn't have disregard for players who choose to play solo or less than 4 players.

raven patrol
#

If you want to Terra I would be all over a solo-friendly buffs mod. Have solo lobbies not lose all scrap on wipe and nerf a couple enemies like how Snare Flea and Jester are already in vanilla. Stuff like Butlers taking a bit longer to pull their knife, Vain Shrouds having a lowered spread rate, and Maneaters having a lengthened growth timer are my ideas of cool solo-only nerfs

fallen musk
#

Nah, I don't think players in solo should be super over-compensated but there should be things taken into account for solo players, such as how snare fleas are handled.

unreal ginkgo
fallen musk
#

Playing solo is it's own skillset and it can really help someone improve at the game.

unreal ginkgo
#

Health compensation isn’t going to help the times when you don’t have a shovel while a butler is present

dry current
daring oar
unreal ginkgo
dry current
unreal ginkgo
#

They’re pretty much walking homing missiles since you don’t have another player to watch your back from them

dry current
daring oar
raven patrol
unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

i am ok making exceptions for that where it makes sense, it's just not a major design goal

unreal ginkgo
#

Generally just staring at them, even without a weapon, is enough to have them keep their distance

fallen musk
#

I'm kind of on the fence about Butlers in solo because on one hand the 2 HP is a really suited changed needed for them. But on the other hand you're kind of required to face off of them in solo.

#

The bigger issue with butlers is that you can't close out bees

daring oar
#

i dont see how butlers "do not work in solo" any more than enemies like the girl, coil-heads, etc.

raven patrol
#

I say Butlers have the extended aggro time I mentioned but have their normal 8 HP

daring oar
#

having reduced HP makes them a total joke to kill and both butlers and the mask hornets have significantly reduced speed in singleplayer

fallen musk
#

The HP does not make them a joke on solo

daring oar
#

butlers almost never spawn outside of dine (i've seen a couple on artifice and even fewer on adamance) and a shovel is only $30

#

and if you can afford to visit any moon (except for adamance which is free) there is no reason a shovel should be a hard limiting factor

raven patrol
#

I mainly think it is weird how Butlers are basically different enemies in solo since not killing them just has a mini Jester following you around. My idea keeps them closer to their normal mechanics

daring oar
#

well i mean

#

they have to be different enemies

#

their entire gimmick is that they don't attack people in groups and you can't make groups in singleplayer

#

either you leave that unchanged or you change it for singleplayer, there's really not an in-between

viscid edge
daring oar
#

i understand that but then you either visit moons that don't spawn butlers or you leave a shovel where it is easily accessible for emergencies

unreal ginkgo
# daring oar i dont see how butlers "do not work in solo" any more than enemies like the girl...

Since you don’t have another player to watch your back, they give you little chance to loot before they become aggravated, pretty much requiring you go to another entrance if you don’t have a weapon since 1. They’ll almost always know where you are, and 2. Easily outrun you if you’re running away from them at a long distance. If they find you there, you pretty much have no choice but backtrack to another (or the same) entrance, or bite the bullet, and play an annoying game of cat & mouse with them

daring oar
#

what are you going to do against thumpers in solo if not shovel them

unreal ginkgo
#

The solution isn’t, “Just kill them.” That isn’t fun

daring oar
#

what are you going to do against nutcrackers (which spawn on the maps that spawn butlers)

#

what about hoarding bugs

fallen musk
#

Thumpers can be out manuevered (sometimes)

daring oar
#

even in singleplayer there isn't an excuse to be blaming butlers on not bringing a shovel

raven patrol
#

The health nerf implies you should just kill them though instead of getting away from them though, which I think is weird. Them being so tanky in multiplayer encourages playing to their normal mechanics

fallen musk
#

You're not forced to engage with hoarding bugs

#

You're not forced to engage with nutcrackers

#

Thumpers you're kind of forced to engage with but there's still a way to get them off your tail enough to survive

daring oar
#

i mean if we're going to draw the line there, you are very rarely forced to engage with butlers either

#

dine is the only place where you are likely to encounter more than one per day and the building has two entrances

fallen musk
#

Artifice has them too

#

Pretty commonly too

raven patrol
#

No other enemy has special mechanics to make them find players faster though, Butlers are a special case

daring oar
#

this is maybe just my anecdotal experience but i've never seen more than 1 butler at a time on artifice and i rarely see them at all

#

anyways we can nitpick about the specifics all day

raven patrol
#

Just because they are rare does not mean it is a non-issue. You are fine with Dine being just off-limits to solo?

daring oar
#

i disagree that it is off limits to solo

#

and i dont think that dine is exclusive in the regard that it spawns monsters that are hostile to solo players

fallen musk
#

You can't say that and also say you're not forced to engage with butlers

daring oar
#

? wdym

unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
#

True but that is somewhat beyond the scope of the discussion here

unreal ginkgo
#

I guess

fallen musk
#

You said that you aren't forced to engage with butlers most of the time because you don't need to go to Dine, but you're also saying Dine shouldn't be off limits to solo because of butlers

daring oar
#

because "most of the time" includes all planets that aren't dine

#

and on dine there is an expectation that you will have to engage and kill the butlers if you go there solo

#

if you dont want to be killing butlers you probably shouldnt be going to dine anyway

unreal ginkgo
#

(Oh yeah, should I mention the ButteRyBalance feature that makes butlers more common in the Manor? Yeah…)

daring oar
#

but especially not if you are alone

daring oar
#

because butlers are really annoying in dineshaft but manors full of butlers has been dine's signature since v50

#

it's intended that you use both together

raven patrol
#

But does this mean Butlers are more common on Artifice and Rend compared to vanilla?

daring oar
#

and then the only other place it has a notable impact is rend, because i wanted to reduce the nutcracker's domination of the spawn pool there

#

on artifice it increases butler weight from 91 to 100 (where it is capped)

unreal ginkgo
#

This now affects moons outside of Dine, which makes playing on the ice and Artifice moons more aids than they already are with butlers

daring oar
#

which is less than a 10% increase

fallen musk
#

So you basically want to take away the thing that defines Rend ok

raven patrol
#

I would not go that far, even in BYB Rend is still a Nutcracker moon

daring oar
#

🙄 why am i sitting here trying to justify changes i made months ago like it's anything new and hasn't already been thoroughly explained

#

changes that can just be turned off if you disagree with them

#

what is the purpose of sitting here and arguing about it

#

genuinely

#

sorry if im a bit short-tempered today but it feels like this is kind of springing up out of nowhere

unreal ginkgo
#

I just got here because I like debating

#

lol

#

Idfk the original context

raven patrol
#

We are not saying your changes are bad, we are just saying that they would work even better if solo Butler nerf was added

daring oar
#

ok, well, if you think that way it is fine

#

respectfully, i disagree that butlers are a problem in solo when taking into account vanilla's nerfs

jagged nexus
#

The Butler is already easy to kill in solo though

daring oar
#

and i do not have an interest in nerfing them further

#

if someone else would like to take up that mantle, it is ok

#

everybody has a different vision for what they want, and this mod is meant to capture my vision, and personally i do not have an issue with butlers in solo

unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
jagged nexus
#

What is there to complain about?

unreal ginkgo
#

Them sucking if you don’t have a weapon? lol

raven patrol
#

Read the comment I linked

sly pivot
daring oar
#

i dont know what else there is to say other than "if you dont want to deal with enemies using tools that exist to deal with those enemies, that is more a problem of how you choose to play"

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

what exactly is the counterplay for jesters in solo

#

how are coil-heads less problematic in solo than butlers

raven patrol
#
  1. Jester being a time bomb is their whole point so I am fine with that
  2. Jester are nerfed in solo in vanilla
daring oar
#

how are thumpers less problematic in solo without a shovel

jagged nexus
#

Butlers also have a way to slow them down if you're being chased and don't have a weapon book it and shut a door behind you cus they can't open them while aggrod then find an exit til they calm down

sly pivot
daring oar
#

if you can compare the butlers to half of the remaining enemy pool and draw the exact same "there is limited counterplay" critique then it is less a problem with the enemy's design and more like they challenge you with your specific playstyle

raven patrol
jagged nexus
#

I think Butlers are balanced fine

sly pivot
daring oar
# raven patrol Their wind timer is longer

idk if we're having a discussion about vanilla or this mod specifically, but the increased wind timer doesn't really matter when they can block doorways and trap you in solo

jagged nexus
#

Generally the only time I find myself dying to Butlers is cus I choose to engage them in Multiplayer

daring oar
#

at best you are risking guaranteed death any time you are exploring beyond 25s in solo vs 13 in multiplayer

raven patrol
#

I am just explaining that I think the solo nerf is adequate and further action is not needed

unreal ginkgo
# daring oar how are coil-heads less problematic in solo than butlers

Coil-heads because they don’t immediately b-line and murk you + you can shut them behind doors for a good while
Jesters because you can bring them to secluded areas of the facility + they not only have their following timer, but also their cranking timer, so it takes them a good bit to become aggravated
Plus, neither of these are the point of butlers, so comparing them is negligible to me

raven patrol
daring oar
raven patrol
#

They literally B line and murk you

daring oar
#

you can run as long as you have no weight and stamina but that will not last forever and won't help you accomplish the objective

unreal ginkgo
#

Not much you can do about that without a weapon, which again isn’t fun

#

They should be manageable without one

daring oar
#

then i suppose that is the part where we fundamentally disagree

sly pivot
#

If coilheads were the only enemy I would agree, but they're always with something else beside them

daring oar
#

butlers are designed where you either kill them or you stick together with a friend to keep them from attacking you

vapid pier
#

Allergy to shovels in the big 2025

daring oar
#

when the latter isn't an option in solo, the former is the option you take

#

the only map where you could make a case that you absolutely would not have access to shovels is adamance which almost never spawns butlers

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

if you're going places that can spawn butlers you should bring a shovel for emergencies and i am not going to relent on that point

#

butlers are not the only enemy that function as area denial when you do not kill them

unreal ginkgo
#

Outside of that, they’re pretty insignificant… in a way

sly pivot
unreal ginkgo
sly pivot
#

Butlers pop almost instantly, Mask Hornets are the actual problem

raven patrol
daring oar
#

i think that making that change would make encountering them worse

#

because every butler would have 8 HP and put you at significantly more risk to kill

#

and you would be forced to keep a knife to kill the rest if there were multiple on the map

fallen musk
#

8 HP is already kinda too high

daring oar
#

a longer aggro timer would not prevent them from eventually aggroing in solo where you have no way to prevent their aggro

#

it would make them exclusively "jester 2" because once they aggro you have less ability to solve that problem and they do not de-aggro after you leave like jesters do

unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
#

These are the same issues they present in multiplayer though (if no other players are around) so I think it is fine. Plus if this is put in your mod there are ways to kill them more easily

unreal ginkgo
#

Thumpers have 4 hp but have been way more dangerous to fight in my experience due to their mechanics and hefty damage output

#

And also their busted AI lol

daring oar
#

there is supposedly a consistent way to kite butlers but i dont know how to do it

fallen musk
#

I mean yeah, but I think players in MP with shovel should be able to hold their own against butlers

#

I mean you already can kinda but it's very tricky in vanilla

#

(plus there's the door glitch but I'm not counting that here)

raven patrol
#

To be transparent most Butler kills I see are done with a cheese, killing them in a true 1v1 seems to be quite difficult

daring oar
#

anyways my biggest problem with reworking the butler is that it was an enemy designed for multiplayer

#

because lethal company is a multiplayer game

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

it is just a multiplayer game with solo capabilities

#

the butler nerfs are basically a consolation prize to minimize their ability to stomp a solo player without having to completely rework their design or mechanics

sly pivot
#

Maybe butler could work like Fox/Maneater?

daring oar
#

there is no precedent set in vanilla for enemies to function completely differently in solo vs multiplayer

sly pivot
#

Having a "nest", I mean

vapid pier
#

😭?

raven patrol
#

Nah

#

That is too far

sly pivot
#

They stay a single area, basically

#

which gets larger as you stay inside

daring oar
#

i don't think there is a good way to change the butler's design in any way other than vanilla does for solo without turning them into a completely different enemy

#

in multiplayer you have the choice to leave it alive or kill it

unreal ginkgo
# sly pivot Maybe butler could work like Fox/Maneater?

I think staring at them solo would be good compensation. It delays their, although still inevitable, attack, like baboon hawks (Or foxes in this instance, but they generally fuck off if you even so much as glance at them)

daring oar
#

in singleplayer you basically need to kill it, but the penalties for killing it are drastically reduced

#

just increasing the aggro timer does not prevent butlers from permanently aggroing you for the rest of the day once the timer expires

#

and changing that mechanic doesn't make sense with the enemy's design, because its whole thing is that it tries to find players that are alone and murder them

#

it wouldn't suddenly give up just because that person left the building and re-entered like jesters

unreal ginkgo
#

But what part of that is fun, especially if you lost a weapon due to a wipe?

sly pivot
#

Not really built to be fun without another person, unfortunately

daring oar
#

would the issue not be that you decided to go to a paid planet without backup shovels for if you wiped

raven patrol
#

For the record these enemy nerfs are just a personal ideal for me, integrating SafeSoloScrap into ButtRyBalance is all I would ask for. It does not even need the config for 2-3 player lobbies

daring oar
#

the game is designed to inconvenience you

#

and it gives you tools to solve those inconveniences

#

if you don't like using the tools to solve those inconveniences, then that is fine, and that is your playstyle

#

but you still sign up for dealing with those inconveniences without the tools designed to solve them

unreal ginkgo
#

Again, they should be manageable on their own, like every other entity. There will be times that you don’t have a shovel, and again, it’s not fun

#

Not everybody wants to be forced into bloodlust

daring oar
#

i dont think solo play is fun in general

#

the stakes are way too high and every inconvenience is amplified by 100 and that is not exclusive to butlers

#

butlers are just in an especially bad spot because their entire design and mechanics revolve around multiplayer

unreal ginkgo
#

Butlers are the only real problem I find in solo

#

Outside of that, solo is fine where it’s at

daring oar
#

in that case you might have a better time just removing butlers completely when you play solo

#

like

unreal ginkgo
#

Though I am considering getting SafeSoloScrap for both to ease the slight headache of it while also keeping the challenge of the deadline instead of just outright resetting

raven patrol
#

What is your idea for Butler solo nerf btw Narpy, I think I missed it

daring oar
# daring oar like

if we're already talking about mods, and you can single out a specific enemy as making your gameplay experience not fun, legitimately you will probably have a better time just removing it

unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
#

Thanks

unreal ginkgo
#

Question mark

daring oar
#

the problem with this solution is that it does not translate well into multiplayer

raven patrol
daring oar
#

why are butlers so happy to murder me when im alone and staring them down just because they know i have friends in the other room

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

yes

unreal ginkgo
#

Not for multiplayer

daring oar
#

and that is a problem

unreal ginkgo
#

😭

sly pivot
#

Solo play only fix is way too niche

#

Probably problematic also

daring oar
#

it doesn't make sense from the perspective that a single person alone in a room can exist in both singleplayer and multiplayer

fallen musk
#

y'know it's this sort of stuff that kinda turns me away from lethal

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

and butlers would be a complete non-issue (adjacent to weaker coil-heads) if staring at them made them a non-issue

#

and when you are exclusively applying that to singleplayer

#

their design as an enemy just feels weird going between singleplayer and multiplayer

unreal ginkgo
#

I legitimately have no idea what you mean here

daring oar
#

sorry i am doing a poor job at wording this

raven patrol
#

Does not stop me from begging incessantly though Trollface

unreal ginkgo
#

I’m not asking her to add anything btw, I just chimed in because I like discussion of topics such as this

daring oar
#

what im trying to get at is: there's no reason a butler should behave completely different in singleplayer vs multiplayer, because being alone in singleplayer should be the same as being alone in multiplayer

#

it doesn't make sense that butlers would be afraid of stabbing you while you're looking at them just because they know there's nobody else on the planet

#

and if you applied the same rules to both singleplayer and multiplayer, it basically just makes butlers into coil-heads

#

because the social aspect is completely irrelevant and you just look at them to avoid them

unreal ginkgo
#

Fun over consistency

daring oar
#

i'd disagree that this makes them fun because coil-heads are the least fun encounter for me in solo

#

but okay

#

in any case

#

i'm pretty sure we are just going to be arguing in circles if this keeps up

unreal ginkgo
#

They’d be even worse without it, y’know

#

Also I’m not arguing

daring oar
#

at the end of the day i am not making any changes to butlers in singleplayer because i disagree that they are a problem

unreal ginkgo
#

I’m not heated, nor am I asking for anything to be added in this mod rn

daring oar
#

if you disagree with me that is okay

#

but i dont think this is the place to be asking for more or discussing potential changes because it is just going to lead to inevitable disappointment

#

im sorry if i came off as aggressive or rude, because that wasn't my intention

#

anyways tl;dr as a rule of thumb i am not planning to make concessions to singleplayer in this mod

#

if an exception crops up where it makes sense i am not opposed to it but it is not a major design goal and i see situations like that to be sort of unlikely

raven patrol
#

To give one last word on my idea, I get it does actually kinda push them to Jester 2, but again I like it mainly on the basis of it being more faithful to multiplayer. 2 HP just feels like a strange case of encouraging combat when the game is mostly combat-optional

#

But alas

daring oar
#

but i think it would make the experience of encountering them in solo less fun and more problematic than it is now

#

so i personally wouldn't be interested in using that change

daring oar
#

i already feel like it's weird that lethal company makes adjustments to enemy behavior like with snare fleas

fallen musk
#

Why is that weird

daring oar
#

because i learned in singleplayer that snare fleas weren't fatal and that information did not carry over into multiplayer for invisible unexplained reasons

fallen musk
#

Uh because it'd be bullshit?!

sly pivot
#

They're still very fatal, just not if you're full hp

raven patrol
sly pivot
#

Literally 10 hp less you're dead

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

i suppose an argument could be made that enemies randomly changing health/speed doesn't make sense but that at least does not teach you incorrect assumptions about their behavior

#

and in the case of snare fleas it sort of makes sense because they are everywhere on the free moons and it would suck for new players to die without chance at retaliation to something encountered so early

unreal ginkgo
#

The snare flea solo compensation is nice, but it’s still your fault for getting one on your head
They’re basically worse, mobile spike traps

daring oar
#

butlers are pretty much nonexistent until you have already reached the midgame/endgame and at that point it is fair to expect players to have more equipment, and place more emphasis on enemies being persistent obstacles, IMO

raven patrol
#

I like the Snare Flea change because vanilla Butlers still give you some time to get away, if a Snare Flea gets the jump on you it is immediately over

daring oar
#

yes

raven patrol
#

Not even Brackens are that cutthroat

daring oar
#

im not saying that snare fleas are worse because of the solo change

#

but i have very mixed feelings about it and i don't think it is an exclusively positive change

#

if i were to be making adjustments for solo play (and im not, but in the case i were) i would want to avoid confusing behavioral changes like that

sly pivot
#

It's less of a behaviour change and more of a "second chance"

raven patrol
#

My idea for an alternative Snare Flea nerf would be they have a brief period after hitting the ground where they cannot attach to you

daring oar
#

a second chance is a huge behavioral change in this scenario

raven patrol
#

This way they cannot just fall right into your head

sly pivot
daring oar
#

snare fleas are guaranteed to kill in multiplayer if you do not force them off of your head

unreal ginkgo
#

I think in this instance it would be pretty easy to figure out of the solo and multiplayer snare flea differences, and games don’t usually convey stuff like this anyway, so it’s not that big of a deal

sly pivot
daring oar
#

and i dont like that solo automatically forces them off your head, because it teaches you incorrect information about countering their behavior, and the less that potential comes up the better

unreal ginkgo
#

I guess it would be nice to have a mention of it in their bestiaries

daring oar
#

well like

#

idk how you'd even explain that

unreal ginkgo
#

Do you have another solution aside from removing the differences outright?

raven patrol
daring oar
#

so yeah

#

i guess

#

even though it's not mine

sly pivot
#

Most people get chased and caught or caught immediately, its not really that impactful

raven patrol
#

It mainly serves to lessen the noob trap aspect of Snare Flea for vanilla

sly pivot
#

Specially in factory

daring oar
#

but in the context of solo play, it gives you a chance to respond and get away

#

without being grabbed and having to be saved by the random generosity of a snare flea leaving you alone

raven patrol
#

Solo is playable but not accessible

daring oar
#

it would be easy to chalk it up to dumb luck that it landed without hitting your face

#

since that can happen in both solo and multiplayer

#

but in multiplayer, where you have friends that can help you (or at least continue the day if you die), then you dont need the training wheels

#

i think it is better at accomplishing the goal of reducing the snare flea's lethality in singleplayer without giving you wrong information

sly pivot
#

But if you learn about it, wouldnt it also make you try to do it in multiplayer?

#

Expecting to be able to got through it

daring oar
#

try to do what? run underneath snare fleas and let them grab you? lol

sly pivot
daring oar
#

if you know the snare flea is there you aren't going to walk underneath it unless you want to risk it grabbing you

sly pivot
#

So if lands on you, nothing changes

daring oar
#

in multiplayer you can already bait a snare flea into dropping without landing on your head

raven patrol
sly pivot
#

Unless they know thats how it works, and thats what Im saying

daring oar
#

in singleplayer i dont think you are going to see the snare flea land, assume "oh shit, good thing it didn't grab me because im in singleplayer", and then take away the lesson "i can just walk through these things safely" in multiplayer

#

it would be a lot more likely someone would assume "oh shit, good thing i avoided that thing grabbing me", and they will run away

#

and if they see a snare flea in the future

#

they are going to not walk underneath it

sly pivot
#

Then the change didnt really make that much difference

raven patrol
daring oar
#

i disagree, because it offers you the window of forgiveness that you already get in singleplaye

analog cypress
daring oar
#

where you aren't going to immediately die because a snare flea you were unaware of dropped straight on your head

#

but it doesnt teach you inconsistent information like "sometimes snare fleas choke you to death if you aren't rescued"

sly pivot
daring oar
#

or "sometimes snare fleas will get off your head and leave you alone"

sly pivot
#

Its like getting critical health from thumper: youre already dead

daring oar
#

and then it doesn't have the chance to grab you

#

rather than it grabbing you immediately with inconsistent mechanics

sly pivot
#

It already has a cooldown after it loses you

raven patrol
daring oar
#

i dont think you are understanding the point im trying to make

analog cypress
daring oar
#

i dont know if im explaining it poorly but i don't know how i could express it any more accurately

sly pivot
raven patrol
raven patrol
sly pivot
analog cypress
#

I think there is an misunderstand in communication between the "rebalance" trying to be achieved

sly pivot
#

If the snare flea is certain to kill you after grabbing, doesnt matter if there's a saving grace before that, its just another spike trap

#

Deadlier, since its silent and mostly unseen

daring oar
#

the point is that you make it far less likely that a snare flea will be able to grab an unaware solo player, but you don't decrease the lethality of getting grabbed because that teaches bad lessons

raven patrol
#

The difference is that if solo Snare Flea gets the jump on you it is not too late, if Spike Trap gets you then you are dead

analog cypress
#

What's the problem with snare flea on solo

daring oar
#

it is a more invisible change than the unexplained second chance mechanic that could be easily conflated

sly pivot
#

Not really, because they tend to get behind doorframes

sly pivot
analog cypress
#

and what's the problem with that?

daring oar
#

it is far easier to chalk off a snare flea hitting the ground and not grabbing you as a lucky accident than the game intentionally giving you leeway because you're playing solo

raven patrol
sly pivot
daring oar
#

so it has the same effect of reducing the likelihood that a snare flea you didnt see will end your run in solo, but without the side effect of giving you wrong information, and that's why it is an improvement in my eyes

#

if you dont have the stamina to outrun the snare flea after it lands that is a different problem

analog cypress
sly pivot
daring oar
#

and ideally a player will know to watch the ceilings so they are never in that situation anyway

analog cypress
#

LC has a lot of solo buffs

#

minor ones

sly pivot
#

Very minor, very good tho

daring oar
#

and it does not inform you of that

raven patrol
sly pivot
#

Centipedes would need to do a windup before dropping, if thats what you envisioned

daring oar
#

not really

sly pivot
#

And I would be fine with that

daring oar
#

you just give them an invisible timer where collisions are ignored with players in solo after they drop

sly pivot
#

Which also teaches bad information tho

#

That they cant grab you while dropping

daring oar
#

but nobody is going to make that assumption

#

they are going to see a scary monster drop from the ceiling and they are going to run from it

sly pivot
#

Pretty sure they will, most of the time a snare flea drops on you, you are crossing a door

daring oar
#

snare fleas don't always land on player heads when they drop and they are just going to assume they got lucky and dodged it while it was falling

sly pivot
#

Youll see it literally go through you

raven patrol
#

Completely unrealistic of a player

daring oar
#

yes

sly pivot
#

As much as it just dealing 100 damage, no?

daring oar
#

anybody that is unaware of the grace period mechanic is not going to know the snare flea dropped through them

sly pivot
#

It can still kill you in solo, just not if you're full health

daring oar
#

no

sly pivot
#

Again, 10 hp less, you're dead

daring oar
#

no

#

snare fleas always release you once you reach 15 health in solo

#

unless you get grabbed by the snare flea twice in a row

#

if you get grabbed by two different snare fleas it teaches you an even worse lesson

#

because then you'll learn that they ignore you if you are already low HP

#

which is not at all how they function

#

lol

sly pivot
#

If that was the case, it would never kill you

daring oar
#

you can try it if you don't believe me

naive mesa
#

I think snare fleas are pretty balanced in solo regardless

daring oar
#

damage yourself with a fall or to another enemy

#

then let a snare flea grab you

#

it will not kill you

#

that is not how they work

naive mesa
#

It mostly boils down to a skill and awareness check

raven patrol
naive mesa
#

A lot of the time snare fleas drop down near you and not on you. Especially if you’re being aware of your surroundings.

#

If you have good reaction time, check your surroundings, or just bring a shovel they aren’t a big threat.

#

They have plenty of counters and making them less punishing if you get caught doesn’t seem necessary to me.

daring oar
#

this is not really relevant to the discussion at hand

#

but yes

#

snare fleas are not a major balance issue and i dont think they ever have been

raven patrol
#

Sometimes though they are super super sneaky, hence the idea that they give a grace period in solo where they are run killers (in the context where they do the full 100 damage)

naive mesa
daring oar
#

the discussion topic, to be specific, is that snare flea "forgiveness" is a bad change

#

in my personal opinion

#

in singleplayer, if a snare flea grabs you, it will get off your head at 15 HP unless it has already grabbed you at least once before

#

and that teaches new players (who are most likely to fall victim to snare fleas) bad information

naive mesa
#

Oh that is a good point

daring oar
#

because you will assume you can be released from the snare flea's grip in multiplayer

#

which is not the case

naive mesa
#

That is actually quite true

daring oar
#

what is being discussed is removing snare flea forgiveness

#

and replacing it with an invisible mechanic where snare fleas can't grab you as they fall from the ceiling in solo

#

the idea being that you would react to the snare flea being dropped and run away

#

which prevents it from grabbing you in the first place if you weren't aware of its position

naive mesa
#

That makes them quite less threatening

daring oar
#

but with similarly lethal consequences if it does actually grab you

sly pivot
#

It lets go after critical health pops

#

The first time, that is

raven patrol
daring oar
# 
if (this.stunNormalizedTimer > 0f || (StartOfRound.Instance.connectedPlayersAmount <= 0 && this.clingingToPlayer.health <= 15 && !this.singlePlayerSecondChanceGiven))
{
    this.singlePlayerSecondChanceGiven = true;
    this.inDroppingOffPlayerAnim = true;
    this.StopClingingServerRpc(false);
    return;
}
sly pivot
#

Health flashed "critical"

daring oar
#

in vanilla, the "critical injury" popup is bugged and displays at 20 HP, when you are actually critically injured at 10 HP

#

which causes "critical injury to display" when your health is dropped from 30 to 20

naive mesa
analog cypress
#

This change feels stupid in my opinion

daring oar
#

but then you take another tick of damage (which sets you to 10 HP, which immediately regenerates to 11)

#

and then the next tick of damage is skipped because you are too low health, and the snare flea gets off your head

sly pivot
daring oar
#

yes

#

all of that is correct

#

at least, with vanilla's functionality

#

it would show up when you hit 20 HP, and then show up again when you drop to 10 (because it shows up any time you take damage, have below 20 HP, and are not already critically injured)

#

the popup does not correspond to the game actually marking you as critically injured

analog cypress