ButteRyBalance

[analog cypress]

Experimentation ain't all that profitable tbh

[balmy pier]

that is a complete lie sorry

it may be the worst in bottomlines but you can get a jetpack only going to exp on quota 1 completely solo consistently

[analog cypress]

There hasn't been a single time where i got more profit going to Exp instead to Assurance, Vow or Adamance

[balmy pier]

well yes but my point is if you push it enough its perfectly servicable

[analog cypress]

I can go Artifice quota 2 going Assurance 3 times in a row

solo

[balmy pier]

.

idc one is better

[analog cypress]

maybe

but i still like the buff based on Weather

i just think it's ridiculous modpacks put like +50% on Eclipsed

[balmy pier]

oh yeah thats always funny

i love taking advantage of that

and i just win

[analog cypress]

i love try-harding the game to have 1000% profit on clear weather and mods that allow me to nerf enemies by alot and make myself have infinite stamina + weightless and save scumming to get good items from gift boxes

very fun

[vapid pier]

ok

[analog cypress]

would 4%, 8% and 12% be more fair? as i can't have these deep discussion about fair mechanics with my group -_-

[raven patrol]

The smaller the better for us, weather is meant to keep things interesting, it being harder with no benefit is kinda the point

If it is that bad you go to a different moon, my casual group has abandoned Eclipsed Titan for Adamance and not regretted it

If your group likes having multipliers for weather than by all means use them, but if you ask us it is unnecessary

[daring oar]

i am personally not a fan of weather multipliers but i also dont know what i would suggest as a viable alternative

i like playing weather because it's fun but i think the game does a really poor job at incentivizing the player to experience it

for the most part it falls in the camp of "this weather is so bad we need to go somewhere else" or "we need to stay here because we already paid and this weather isn't bad enough to leave"

with pretty much no in-between

i just dont think that weathered moons randomly spawning more stuff (or spawning stuff worth more money) is a proper solution

if it works to encourage playing weathered stuff more

then that is great

but i'd like for there to be some sort of other solution and i don't know what that solution would be

[analog cypress]

well, because of the weather multipliers i got a third camp called "We need to go to Stormy Adamance if we want money to make the quota"

but that's the main problem i got with weather yeah

also my group likes weather multipliers, i just don't tell them that i've been nerfing sometime as i'm the host most of the time 🙂

[raven patrol]

The way I did it in my modpack is to add items to the shop that make weather easier:

• Jetpack and Cruiser tackle Flooded and Rainy so no need there
• Added a Beacon item that you can scan from very far distances to counter Foggy, blizzards, and unfamiliar moons
• Added a Lightning Rod ship upgrade that is configured to redirect all random lightning to the ship, and has a 10% chance to redirect targeted lightning to the ship (thinking about removing this part)

If you hate weathers then you can spend some credits to make them less impactful, but they do not make the weathers better than clear

[analog cypress]

Idk if that tackles the problem good enough 🤔 maybe there could been a better solution

[fallen musk]

The only real problematic weathers are stormy and flooded, more so stormy since flooded does either nothing on certain moons or has very little impact.

Stormy is just not fun to play

Even with the nerf I put on it with my mod it's still not fun to play

It makes loot transferring extremely tedious

I think the honest answer to the problem is just to get rid of stormy targeting items but I know people are bound to disagree with that since it's disabling a staple mechanic of the weather

[daring oar]

it's the entire point of the weather

the only other thing left is lightning randomly striking AI nodes which is what everybody complains about with storms anyway

lol

[fallen musk]

Yeah but I'd rather deal with random lightning strikes than it taking three times as long to transfer items sometimes.

[daring oar]

only one item can be targeted at a time

so as long as multiple people are transporting metal at the same time

it doesn't slow down overall transfers very much

metal can be safely transported in the cruiser

you can set metal items outside to take away attention from the scrap you are trying to transport

like keys

[fallen musk]

Idk, it still slows down a lot even in squads, mostly because only 2 people are transferring at most half the day

[daring oar]

there are plenty of ways to play around it and "it taking three times as long to transfer items sometimes" feels like a huge over-exaggeration of how it often works in practice

[fallen musk]

Plus, even HQ people agree the weather sucks which is why they glitch it out of existence

[daring oar]

i'd argue they just do it because it's a thing

if a glitch exists to delete a threat from the game and you are trying to go for the highest score

you disadvantage yourself not using that glitch

HQ players aren't going to stop visiting artifice to go to dine if stormy gets patched

they are just going to play stormy artifice

[daring oar]

obviously there are more problems with this argument (like dine being garbage and most HQ players not using the latest patch RN anyway)

[fallen musk]

I mean yeah I guess but a lot of them still do not like stormy

Yeah and unforunately it's probably gonna stay that way for the rest of the game's lifespan

Unless like, someone gets the ultimate theoretical v69 run

[daring oar]

idk

single item days are often really good

and can make any moon valuable

[marble spruce]

just make them strike items less, meow

[swift grove]

Meow!

[daring oar]

and nutcracker infestations are a bunch of extra value if they are taken advantage of to the fullest extent

but i think the game is largely getting less consistent with each update

[fallen musk]

Well yeah, but the problem is largely just that v60+ is just not fun at high level.

[daring oar]

because it's being designed with the approach of "always something new for people to come back and experience" whereas you want consistency if you are trying to make it a sport

*competitive games are fun because everyone has the same rules and optimizes them in a different way and you get further from that ideal with the more random shenanigans that can occur

[daring oar]

i feel like stormy is fine in terms of how it's designed, especially if you compare it with other weathers

with the sole exception of rainy (most of the time, anyway) and eclipse

foggy weather is a constant hamper on visibility

flooded weather is a constant hamper on traversability

[marble spruce]

just an idea meow if its really that hurtful on transfers

[swift grove]

Meow!

[daring oar]

and stormy weather is a constant hamper on transports

all of these have their counters (foggy is just a knowledge check that's really ugly)

flooded weather can be mitigated with tools or map knowledge as well

and stormy weather is also basically just a knowledge check + cooperative exercise

[runic cobalt]

No ideas allowed

[daring oar]

i guess it wouldn't be unwarranted for storms to strike items less, since rain isn't consistently affecting your movement (just depends on quicksand gen)

[marble spruce]

sotrmy doesn't have quicksand

stormy

[daring oar]

and eclipses (in the exterior) often cap out early in the day (like on vow where you basically get 2 giants by 9 AM and then the outdoors are consistent the entire day)

[fallen musk]

I also play solo a bit so stormy just basically makes certain moons (Rend) very annoying

[analog cypress]

I'll be real, weathers are fun but they certainly aren't very welcoming/incentivizing
Rainy -> Easiest weather and most negligible, if you're newbie you'll get caught off guard but that probably won't happen again until you go to Dine and discover that it can happen there as well. 1% of the times the quicksand will generate at a terrible spot
Foggy -> Harsh for those who have problems remembering the way, althrough it's quite benefitial if you're experienced because giants can't see well or if you have a low end hardware computer lol
Flooded -> Most fun of the weather but the nastiest at late hours because entities aren't affected by water at all. You're bound to get eat by an worm or forest keeper, you won't be able to retrieve items if the baboon hawks steal from you, good luck getting bee hives
Stormy -> Annoying, specially solo, limits the tools you can carry (except if you use the belt bag) but can be countered very easily if you have a group or is a good map to use the cruiser, you can also kill giants with a well timed lighting strike but that's rare
Eclipsed -> Moon on steroids, it'll make exploring the inteiror and returning with loot a lot harder
Increasing the reward slightly for opting to go to moons with weather is the easiest approach, althrough not the best

[daring oar]

but like, flooded weather doesn't stop being flooded intermittently to give you a break

the fog never clears up, it's just there

[analog cypress]

Stormy is fine as it is, it works as intended, but flooded it's just unbalanced in my opinion

[daring oar]

imo it's just a fact of life that storms will be constantly striking one metal item in the exterior

[runic cobalt]

i like flooded depending on the map, it lets me actually use the exterior more than just "straight line to ship"

[daring oar]

i think flooded is really good except i dont like how it becomes a clock-shortener on certain maps

past a certain point on offense you literally can not safely return to the ship without using a jetpack

[raven patrol]

Flooded on March was pretty evil ngl

[daring oar]

unless you are on the pipe, which i think you can jump to the ship from if you're light enough? or at least reach a ladder quickly

[runic cobalt]

i think if flooded allowed you to jump no matter the stamina, it'd be better, if that makes sense lol

i get getting rid of stamina and speed, but like not being able to jump just kills you and there's nothing u can do about it sometimes

[daring oar]

march is the classic terrible flooded map

its entire gimmick of being the map with 4 entrances sucks when 2 of them start out underwater

and you can't even reach them easily like you can with flooded vow

[raven patrol]

I do actually have a weird idea, what if TZP made you wade through the water faster

[daring oar]

close to the end of the day, another one of those entrances is underwater

[analog cypress]

flooded should also affect the entities in some way or another

[daring oar]

and really late in the day, you can't even board the ship from the direction of any of the entrances

[analog cypress]

it's just weird the lack of interaction between them

[daring oar]

so it's basically another forced evacuation map

i like that players are generally given the option to stay as late as they like, and they have to make the choice of when they want to leave because it's too risky + not rewarding enough to keep pushing for more

with certain floods you have to leave when the clock hits a certain hour unless you have a jetpack

[runic cobalt]

if i cant jump, then the dogs shouldnt be able to either 😡 (i do kinda agree though)

[daring oar]

but like, jetpacks invalidate most of the game's design anyway

so that's kind of just another fact of life

[raven patrol]

I honestly think Flooded is worse than Stormy on every moon besides Dine, Adamance, and Assurance

[runic cobalt]

god forbid the jetpack gets nerfed to account for that and people just say "the game is ruined now" lol

[daring oar]

can assurance even be stormy

i cant think of the last time i've even been on stormy assurance

oh wait ya nvm

[fallen musk]

But cruiser doesn't?

[raven patrol]

Flooded Experimentation and Offense are way worse than people realize

[daring oar]

where was i implying that

[analog cypress]

i wanna see mouth dogs swimming

[daring oar]

at least in the context of floods, where i made the comment, yes because you can't drive through flood water without drowning

lol

[analog cypress]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-alien-swimming-doggy-paddle-gif-14724615625700612891

[raven patrol]

It does but it is less accessible than Jetpack, and Flooded still can hamper Cruiser a lot

[daring oar]

a cruiser is not going to help much on flooded march or offense

[raven patrol]

If you stuck even slightly you are downing

[daring oar]

at least, im doubtful

maybe im wrong and the seats boost you up higher than i think

[analog cypress]

Cruiser is invalidated by most maps

[raven patrol]

It would mostly help in speeding up transfers which lets you clear exits before they become unusable

[fallen musk]

I'm sorry if that came off mean but like I don't like that people hate on jetpack so much when all of the points against it can be made about the cruiser.

[raven patrol]

No that is true

[fallen musk]

It kinda demotivates me to even care about this game.

[daring oar]

i understand that but you brought it up in the middle of a conversation where the jetpack objectively has an advantage over the cruiser

you can not make the point that cruisers ignore floods like the jetpack does

because that is not true

[analog cypress]

jetpack and cruiser are literally op as hell

[raven patrol]

But Cruiser is less accessible and reliable than Jetpack so it’s not as much as a problem

[analog cypress]

the learning curve is just too high

but

[fallen musk]

Sorry.

[analog cypress]

when you learn it's the coolest thing

[daring oar]

anyways im not even really complaining about the jetpack

it's probably my favorite thing about lethal company

[raven patrol]

Cruiser makes HQ on Artifice a joke but not much else tbh, Artifice is uniquely suited for it

[daring oar]

it's a ton of fun and, at the very least, 100% my favorite item in the game

[analog cypress]

idk why robots can't see the player siting on the cruiser but giants can

[daring oar]

but it is also not really debatable that it voids a lot of the game's design aspects and is overpowered by nature

in a lot of ways the cruiser is too, but i find that the cruiser has a higher skill curve and much higher risk, so it doesn't feel quite as blatantly problematic

[analog cypress]

also, that bug that makes the cruiser fly with the items on top is annoying as hell, it literally breaks the whole point of learning to drive a cruiser to just become good at a bug

[daring oar]

the jetpack's only real balancing factor is its huge price tag that i still don't feel is high enough

but at the end of the day i don't really care that much

both are extremely fun and even if they break the game they let you do fun stuff nothing else does

and i worry that if they were nerfed, it would impact what makes them fun to begin with

the v50 beta jetpacks felt terrible and sucked all the fun out of the most exciting item in the game and that sucked

but this is just starting another conversation i've already had a million times before

so i will try not to go off the rails with it again

[fallen musk]

The way I view Lethal just seems to be not really a popular one.

I think v50 had the best balancing.

[daring oar]

in a lot of ways, it did, yeah

[raven patrol]

Something I really like modpacks like Arduous Hardships for is that they have moons that require optimized gameplay to be profitable, meaning OP travel methods like Jetpack and Cruiser are basically required. They have high power levels and spawn curves so even just stepping out of the exit is dangerous. It does a lot to address stale late game

[daring oar]

and i care a lot about the game being balanced

but in my eyes "balance" just means that all of the content should be fun to experience so that it's not incentivizing you to avoid it on the nature of what it is

v50 was probably the closest lethal company has been to "most of the levels are worth visiting, most of the tools are worth using"

but the zap gun has been terrible since forever and that's never really been addressed

v50 doesn't have the extremely fun and unique car that transforms how you play the game

v50 didn't have atrocious balance for dine but offense was still terrible and not worth visiting

etc.

[fallen musk]

Honestly, if I could, I would stick to v50 since it's also just overall more stable than v69 is.

but the issue is that a lot of mods are just not supported for it anymore

[daring oar]

comparatively v50 might have been "the best so far" but it's 4 content updates behind now and it was never perfect to begin with

[raven patrol]

Minecraft 1.8 moment

[daring oar]

im not sure

[analog cypress]

i mean, even with the 200$ buff, idk how to use this thing

[daring oar]

i dont really want to do this to begin with

if im just being honest

[analog cypress]

it requires atleast 2 people, one with a shovel and other with a zap gun

[daring oar]

but i do want to adjust some of the enemies' SFX so they play the loud door THUD sound

like thumpers

[raven patrol]

I have been meaning to ask about Zap Gun, we gotta do something else to it I think

[analog cypress]

would be more worth having a lot of stun grenades

[daring oar]

that's unrelated to your question but a reminder for myself

[analog cypress]

i don't wanna kill invincible entities

doesn't even make sense

[daring oar]

nutcrackers literally instantly kill people by walking into them because of their exaggerated walk cycle

and yet they don't slam doors

Lol

[analog cypress]

the bees on stormy are literally hit by thunders lots of times

why should a zap gun kill bees

[raven patrol]

Zaprilator is the best of them right now but even that does not feel quite right

[daring oar]

oh what do you know

zap gun had 120s of battery life in v9

Lol

[raven patrol]

Battery life is not the issue at all

[daring oar]

i mean

22 seconds is pretty terrible

i don't think the zap gun is ever going to be useful as a meta item

you can infinitely regenerate instant kill shotguns in lethal company

a stun pales in comparison

[raven patrol]

It is bottom of F tier though

The clipboard is more useful due to glitches

[analog cypress]

the only feature from the useful zap gun i could see being "kinda useful" would be disabling vanilla hazard

specifically the turret

[raven patrol]

That actually would be cool ngl

[daring oar]

does it not already zap turrets?

maybe im just misremembering but i thought it did

[raven patrol]

Mandela effect

[analog cypress]

but in the process of trying to disabling it permanently it goes berserk, if you hold for enough time it disables

that would be cool

but that's it

[fallen musk]

I'm sorry if I caused a little stir in here

[raven patrol]

My take would be it can zap all 3 hazard types, and however long you hold the beam is how long it says disabled for afterward

[daring oar]

you are fine, all friendly discussion

i hope i didn't come off as aggressive either

truth be told i have no idea what to do with the zap gun

[analog cypress]

we're all discussing for a common objective: balancing the game (and possibly adding features)

[daring oar]

it's stats are objectively shit, and they were objectively less shit in earlier versions, so to me it seems pretty obvious to revert those changes, if nothing else

[raven patrol]

I do want to ask, what exactly is wrong with Jetpack? Would just deleting it from the game solve the issue for you, or is it emblematic of something bigger

[daring oar]

i dont think terra has issues with the jetpack

he was pretty adamantly against the price nerf in v56

[analog cypress]

i mean, 120s is too much

but 22s is really terrible

[daring oar]

"too much" how

[raven patrol]

What about zapping hazards like me and Leafar just said

[daring oar]

are you going to actually use it if it is 120s?

if so, is that a problem? it's gone from an item never worth using to an item that is suddenly worth using, and that's a good thing, right?

[analog cypress]

no, but should have enough time to last a day

most items don't have a battery time that last couple of days

[daring oar]

if it winds up becoming overused, then that's a problem that can be addressed later down the line - but i think it's better for terrible items to become too good and be dragged back into line

[raven patrol]

This might be a bold stance but I think infinite battery and $200 is still not worth it, it needs a second use

[daring oar]

instead of being terrible forever

i was a bit worried i made march too good in this mod

(and maybe I did? idk, jury's out, i guess)

but for how bad march is in vanilla, i'd rather it be too good so i have some incentive to visit, and then it can be nerfed later if it becomes too dominant over the other moons - if it's just terrible forever, nothing changes

[raven patrol]

I think March should have the best bottom line of the tier 2s, it has a giant exterior and interior and generally is an rng fest

[daring oar]

with the zap gun i kind of think on the same principle

zap gun has been terrible forever

forever!

has never ever been good

i dont think the worst outcome is that it is given so many buffs that it becomes completely overpowered

[vapid pier]

Damage vulnerability?

[daring oar]

i think the worst outcome is that it continues to be terrible

[raven patrol]

I am hooked on it zapping map hazards, make it do that

[daring oar]

this at least lets it be fun for a while, and then i'd much rather sit at the table to fix the OP zap gun instead of trying to make it not suck

[analog cypress]

if we're going to make it op, might as well zap hazards

[daring oar]

that is the principle i am trying for the some of the worst stuff in the game, anyway

[raven patrol]

We want you to buff it Buttery, you do not need to convince us

[daring oar]

yes

well

anyway

my problem isn't "there are no good ideas for the zap gun" so much as it's "there's no ideas i like for the zap gun"

[raven patrol]

Not a fan of zapping map hazards?

[daring oar]

letting it explode unkillable enemies objectively gives it a niche, and it's a niche that's pretty fair - there's a skill based minigame that you need to maintain for a long period of time, and it rewards you by dealing with threats in a way nothing else can

but as far as flavor goes i really hate that as a concept

the same kinda goes for map hazards

i could kinda see short-circuiting a turret by holding a zap beam on it - i think that'd be cool (and legit i already thought they were zappable, it just didnt do anything)

but zap gunning landmines and spikes feels weird to me

[raven patrol]

You do not explode map hazards, just disable them. The longer you hold the beam the longer they are disabled

[analog cypress]

Zap gun

Increase lifetime
Turrets will stay disabled as long as you keep zapping it, but will go berserk when activated again
Landmines will explode when you stop zapping it (Idk what someone would expect)
Spike Traps won't fall as long as you keep zapping it, but that will reset their timer to a new one

[raven patrol]

👆

Not sure I like changing Spike Trap’s timers though, just have them pause the timer

Permanently or temporarily

Permanently is definitely not what we want

[analog cypress]

If it's permanently that just makes the ship guy useless 🥲

most of the time

[raven patrol]

Just there to open powered doors

[vapid pier]

Does it really matter if another mod does it perma or not

[raven patrol]

I did not know Useful Zap Gun allowed this, if it lets me add this myself I can stop begging Buttery

Similar situation for EnchancedRadarBooster, Buttery had some ideas but this mod does most of them so we can just use that

[analog cypress]

I drive, i fly, i fight and i bring the loot... but most importantly i stay at the ship typing "transmit penis" 🔥

[raven patrol]

True

[vapid pier]

Extra damage from damage sources while an enemy is being zapped?

Um

Okay…

[raven patrol]

Not sure how much that would help, it makes basically anything die if you have a teammate spamming shovel but is kinda what Zap Gun does already

I guess you could consistently kill Dogs and Giants with this

[analog cypress]

zap gun + knife

idk how i feel about this

[raven patrol]

I like the trap idea more

[analog cypress]

i don't wanna fighting to be meta

[daring oar]

of all the ideas i've heard i like monsters taking extra damage while stunned the most

but i don't think it's perfect either

the zap gun's entire point is that you play a minigame and you are rewarded the better you are at playing it

[raven patrol]

That is why for the trap idea I say the trap is disabled for a longer period of time after the beam is broken if you hold the beam longer

[daring oar]

so you can, for example, have someone zap a bracken and have another person whack it to death as long as you hold the beam for 5 hits

if you dealt bonus damage it'd let you kill the bracken in 3 hits, which is a boon, but it reduces the requirement of holding the beam

which i think causes a bit of a problem in the opposite direction

[raven patrol]

Yeah that is not what I want, darn

[daring oar]

i do like the idea of taking down dogs and giants

with zap gun

[raven patrol]

Just have Zap Gun set them on fire

[analog cypress]

the longer you hold it the higher the bonus damage is?

[daring oar]

probably not, i'd just make it a flat +1

it could be an interesting way to reincorporate the double damage bug for some enemies

you could 2 shot a stunned dog with the shotgun

[analog cypress]

Past 15 seconds holding it will get a +1 damage to any entity?

[daring oar]

i dont know RN if it's possible to make monsters open locked doors without doing some hacky stuff

but even if i could i dont know that there's a need for maneaters to open locked doors anyway

how often is there going to be a maneater on the other side of a locked door trying to get at you

[raven patrol]

Locker just deletes the door, it does not actually open them

[daring oar]

Lol

[analog cypress]

btw

Lockpicker time required from 30s to 20s?

[raven patrol]

That is such a crazy niche thing lol

Bait adult maneaters to break doors

[raven patrol]

EnhancedLockPicker lets you do this, plus it lets you give Lockpicker the bonus ability of being able to lock doors, which is very interesting

I like that, rare rng event in your favor. Also you have to hope you see it in time and a teammate does not unlock the door

[analog cypress]

i wanted it to give the ability to tweak the time required to lock doors

i would make it 30s to lock and 15s to unlock

also, i've had some bugs where the door would be locked but opened

being able to trap jesters is kinda op too

[raven patrol]

Well you can use it just to have 20 second open time, the bonus ability is a config

So you want to add this because of another mod you use, that makes more sense

[analog cypress]

i don't judge, sometimes you just want a small feature from other mod instead of 20 others that requires all clients to have

[raven patrol]

No I get now, I was just lacking context

I thought you wanted to use it as a mobile Lockpicker or something crazy

[signal stream]

Its way to late but imo biggest way to support stormy is just to have more undercover locations level design wise

[marble spruce]

or an umbrella

(that's the joke hehe)

[signal stream]

A little metal rod you could place to attract the strikes could be cook

Cool*

[wind spoke]

I've said this like 2 times in this thread but I think that masked should have more creepy interactions, though an idea I didn't share was that maskeds would be targeted by brackens but when their necks are snapped they just keep on walking with a backwards head

[marble spruce]

we were talking a few days ago abt adding this functionality to the radar booster potentially!

would be rlly cool since radar boosters are "map control" items ig

[daring oar]

lol that would be funny

[wind spoke]

it would also fit that theme of being possessed

[balmy pier]

so by this logic burnt masked should exist

[raven patrol]

I would be down for Radar Booster being a lightning rod, I am not pushing it because there is a mod for a ship upgrade that does this, but it would be a cool alternative

[wind spoke]

what mod?

[raven patrol]

A lightning rod ship upgrade mod

It is just called lighting rod I think

You cannot move it with you is the difference

[silk lark]

i think that's part of LGU isn't it?

[raven patrol]

I use a separate mod

[ripe tartan]

is the foggy like this intentional?

[frigid storm]

The smog consumes

[marble spruce]

It's a bug with the vanilla vow/ada scene. the sky and fog volume doesnt cover the whole map vertically. titan has a similar issue and you can go under the fog like this in some spots

the reason the foggy rework does this is because it uses the fog from said volume

i think she plans to fix this soon, ive made the volume bigger in rebalancedmoons already

[dry current]

I noticed yesterday while playing that maskeds actually eat your items when they kill you (as in they delete em), are there plans to fix this w a rebalance? (it was esp punishing while doing the journeys campaign pipipipipi)

[daring oar]

im moving the rework to chameleon and i fixed this in it

[analog cypress]

On Titan also?

[daring oar]

titan doesnt actually use the foggy rework

it is the only vanilla map where its natural fog is denser than the fog object makes it

[analog cypress]

Oh ok

[balmy pier]

have you considered nerfing offenses eclipsed spawn cycle to 3

[daring oar]

have i

[balmy pier]

ah

i didnt know you did this

cool

[marble spruce]

hi

[lilac mica]

Rebalanced Beanie

[raven patrol]

The newest GeneralImprovements update includes the ladder sprinting patch, but also includes the ability to have Radar Boosters interact with the Teleporter and Inverse Teleporter, if that means anything for the plans in this mod

[jagged nexus]

The Ladder Sprinting seems to do absolutely nothing

In my testing

Maybe Buttery still needs to add compat dunno

Might also be oddness with BetterStamina

[raven patrol]

It is turned off by default, do you have it enabled?

[jagged nexus]

I did enable it

and it doesn't do anything

I think it could be cus of BetterStamina though, cus it has a value to mess with ladder sprinting, I'll have to mess with it more later

Just gonna do NoDrain for now

[raven patrol]

Sounds like the safe option

[daring oar]

i don't plan to touch radar boosters with teleports anymore

since i was informed enhancedradarbooster still works in v69

an especially now that general improvements also has an implementation of it

[daring oar]

no, v1.12.0 no longer patches ladder sprinting if general improvements is loaded

i did so in anticipation of shaosil adding an option to add it as a feature

[daring oar]

i also dont patch ladder sprinting if betterstamina is enabled

so it would be an issue with one or any of those mods

[jagged nexus]

Could just be the effect is really subtle then tbh

[daring oar]

i do still want to make radar boosters attract random lightning as long as they are powered on

so i will implement that "eventually"

[raven patrol]

Does “random lightning” mean that the ‘targeted’ item lightning will not be affected?

[daring oar]

radar boosters are already conductive

which means they can already redirect targeted lightning

[raven patrol]

Well like they force all targeted lightning to go to them

[daring oar]

i don't plan to make them absorb all targeted lightning, no

that is the challenge of stormy weather, and you are given all the tools you need to handle that in vanilla

i just want to add a counter to random lightning which is uncontrollable by the player, strikes without warning, and is regardless still capable of instant killing players (or best case, killing in 2 hits)

[raven patrol]

Understandable

[daring oar]

lol

lightning bolts are client-side

because of course they are

[balmy pier]

the random ones?

[daring oar]

all lightning is client side

technically

but yes

random lightning has its position calculated individually by each client

using seeded random

but if anything desyncs your lightning seed, you will see it strike different positions from all other players

[balmy pier]

so theoretically each player has a different chance they instantly get killed

[daring oar]

lol

[raven patrol]

So we could make a client side mod that removes all lighting from the weather

Basically making Stormy just be cosmetic rain

[daring oar]

it would be banned from thunderstore

and is pretty much unnecessary

since if you dont use butteryfixes you can just softlock stormy weather anyway

butteryfixes or lethalfixes

[raven patrol]

Oh definitely, it just is another example of the insane holes in this game’s networking

[daring oar]

ok yeah i just had to check

you need butteryfixes or you can rarely softlock stormy weather by having the maneater eat metal items

[raven patrol]

I am honestly surprised a troll mod has not been made yet, people could wreck public lobbies en masse with ease as client

[daring oar]

lethalfixes (and butteryfixes) would tackle the more common issue of stormy no longer working if you leave a moon that has metal items left behind to despawn

[daring oar]

tons of lethal company cheats already exist

but they are moderated with extreme prejudice on thunderstore

[raven patrol]

Thank goodness

[daring oar]

so you have to go looking for them externally and that alone is enough to curb most players from finding them

although it's still not difficult to search "lethal company cheats" and find things on github

that you can then use with even the bare minimum knowledge of installing mods manually

kinda sucks but that's why there are host-side anti cheat mods to patch some of the worst stuff

[unreal ginkgo]

What kind of fucking loser do you have to be to cheat in public lobbies

[raven patrol]

Minecraft players

Bot networks scanning the internet for servers without whitelists to grief

[daring oar]

i think i might be ready to release this update after i implement the next 2 things

there's still a lot of stuff i'd like to address but i think i'd rather publish another version before i do so

[raven patrol]

Epic

[daring oar]

i found out my code for adding new enemies to the outside/daytime spawn pools didn't work

because i accidentally removed the system that allows that to happen when I was writing the initial version of this plugin

so the "add earth leviathans to rend" setting just did not work

[daring oar]

i wonder if there is some new feature in particular that led me to discover this issue

anyways

[vapid pier]

Bees on Offense

[daring oar]

typical offense, i see

[balmy pier]

gang

[raven patrol]

Offense daytime curve buff here we come

[runic cobalt]

Oh nice, was it as easy as just making the physics region or did you need to mess with some scaling bones on the oldbird

[daring oar]

just had to remake the gameobject and all its components

:)

did it all with code too

don't even need an asset bundle

[runic cobalt]

Daym, nice

[daring oar]

im also able to avoid the bug it caused here
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/974101195545280542/1281070103382982656/Untitled_video_-_Made_with_Clipchamp_29.mp4?ex=67b53a01&is=67b3e881&hm=77da6688fe649d68fedb5dbb7a955d769a407cd63f777f9c34bb0a31bd42f38b&

because all of this stuff gets created in a postfix to start

it would be nice to do it in the prefab, but the problem is that if the playerphysicsregion exists when the prefab is instantiated, it "absorbs" players/items into its list of renderers in EnemyAI.Start() and then fucks with the player's layers in EnableEnemyMesh

i would've probably preferred to put all this stuff in the prefab, and then just fix the core issue, but it's engrained in EnemyAI.Start() rather than RadMechAI.Start()

and it would require a transpiler to fix :(

because they get fetched and altered in the same frame

[marble spruce]

omg

[crude pier]

what's new in this screenshot? items being able to be dropped on top of old birds?

[viscid edge]

players and items being able to get on top of old birds

[daring oar]

yeah!

restored from v64

[unreal ginkgo]

WHAT

THIS IS AWESOME

Thank you so much

[daring oar]

on the topic of old birds

i also networked the crouch variable

which fixes robots and giants disadvantaging non-clients

hopefully i will figure out a good way to address this host-side in butteryfixes soon

but i am happy to have the fix available in some form or fashion, in the meantime

[unreal ginkgo]

W

[crude pier]

oh wait it got removed? was there a reason why?

[daring oar]

if you were standing on robots when they woke up it caused this really weird bug

[crude pier]

ohh

okay ywah I can see why that was removed haha

[daring oar]

so he removed it (this was around the time he was burning out on lethal company, so it was probably just easier to remove than fix the core issue)

hopefully he comes back and revisits it! some day

[crude pier]

hopefully after Welcome To The Dark Place comes out

[unreal ginkgo]

Don't tell Purple about this 🤫

(I'm not complaining, I do think this is a good thing to fix)

[jagged nexus]

What does the fix do?

It's not in the Wiki section

lol

[unreal ginkgo]

You could regain the negative luck you've lost through purchasing a signal translator by storing it

It is weird that it isn't optional though

[analog cypress]

Offense will also get boulder blockers on entrance right?

[analog cypress]

I saw the update now, forget about it

[naive mesa]

How do the barber, butler and masked infestations work? Is it a set chance on every moon but increased on certain moons?
For that chance is it separate to vanilla infestations, or when an infestation rolls the extra infestations are added to the pool of possible enemy types?

[analog cypress]

No Kidnapper fox nerf 🥲

[analog cypress]

Probably the latter

[runic cobalt]

Wait what causes this, had it happen one time with one of my entities

[analog cypress]

lol, it' actually included on the settings but wasn't mentioned on the changelog or wiki

randomize apparatus price?

[daring oar]

the wiki isnt 100% complete sorry

[daring oar]

it is weighted, normal infestations are replaced with a rerolled enemy type and new mechanics

[analog cypress]

which values?

[naive mesa]

Some moons have higher weights for certain infestations than others I take it?

[daring oar]

yes

[daring oar]

it's caused by EnableEnemyMesh

in this case, zeekerss was standing on top of a dormant old bird (the "nest" object)

the enemy spawned

the PlayerPhysicsRegion inside the old bird adopted him

which made his player object a child of the old bird's object

[daring oar]

then RadMechAI.Start() ran this code

which took all of his renderers and added them to the enemy's list of renderers

and then fucked up the layers on every single one of them

including the stuff with disabled renderers (like the giant line of sight cubes)

these are probably what are shoving blueray around in the clip

the glitch can be fixed by altering EnemyAI.Start() to validate that none of the renderers have GetComponentInParent<PlayerControllerB>()

[runic cobalt]

Oo

[daring oar]

or in my case, i just generate the physics region in a postfix to RadMechAI.Start()

after it has already run EnemyAI.Start()

[daring oar]

internally it has min/max values of 40-120

but i boosted the max value up to 130 since that was how it was in v9

on average the apparatus will be worth a tad more than vanilla with the obv possibility of super low and super high rolls

[analog cypress]

apparatus for 40$ 💀

[balmy pier]

dont tell this guy the apparatus' value range if its spawned by weight

[daring oar]

yes

if the apparatus is spawned via scrap pool

40-120 is subjected to the 0.4x multiplier

which makes it $16-47*

[analog cypress]

💀

[daring oar]

nutcracker shotguns would have the same issue

internally their min-max is 30-100

which would be $12-39

[balmy pier]

knives benefit from this

[daring oar]

but they ignored those values and just generated a random number $30-89

before v50 made all shotguns exactly $60

[balmy pier]

there is a lower value than 35 that can spawn for them

but their highest is like 84

[daring oar]

knives actually have proper values set

internally they are 70-210

which is $28-83

[analog cypress]

Glad the randomizer can be disabled, i prefer the fixed values instead of the randomized ones

[daring oar]

i just like the variety

[analog cypress]

knifes ranging to 83 is insane btw

[daring oar]

knives are garbage in vanilla so i dont see it as an issue

[analog cypress]

going to Dine to hunt some butlers

[dry current]

https://tenor.com/view/apple-cat-apple-cat-good-night-meow-goodnight-meow-gif-5287001702735037174

[swift grove]

Meow!

[dry current]

the old bird:

[daring oar]

killing nutcrackers is way easier than butlers and they drop an item worth almost double the money + don't drop additional enemies to deal with

[daring oar]

lol it's actually hilariously like this in game

if you stand too far to the front of the old bird

it'll see you, tilt its head, and you'll slide off

and then it can grab you or shoot you

[analog cypress]

btw, if you're going to implement the zap gun dealing bonus damage with weapons, you should limit to shotguns and shovels in my opinion

knifes would get really busted

[dry current]

that's hilarious omg

old bird greed...

[daring oar]

it applies to all vanilla moons

all ladders and EntranceTeleports automatically have SpawnDenialPoints generated at them

so random obstacles can't generate within a certain radius of either

this should guarantee they are always immediately accessible

although i guess it'd still be possible to get colossally unlucky and have boulders generate blocking the paths to one or the other

like if this entire area gets congested with boulders on vow (rare but possible, i suppose)

[analog cypress]

I almost got colossaly unlucky, I remember having a giant boulder there once that blocked 80% of the path

[dry current]

That'd be useful for artifice

A giant pumpkin once spawned in front of fire so it was inaccessible from the outside 😭

[runic cobalt]

Spawn denial points work in a pretty unideal way imo

The denial radius is based off of the object getting spawned rather than the denial point itself

As an example I saw a moon dev place like... 50+ spawn denial points within 3 units of eachother just to block trees from spawning in a place

[daring oar]

yeah it's weird but it works better than nothing

a better solution is probably to have a client RPC that just searches in the prop container and destroys stuff within a certain radius of points you don't want to have obstacles

[runic cobalt]

For the moon dev I just allowed em to give the spawn denial point a scale and I transpiled the number it checks to that scale

And to visualise it they'd just add a sphere collider iirc

[daring oar]

tbh

might be fun to make jetpacks self destruct when they get struck by lightning

kinda like that as a concept

i do sort of like the "skill expression" of juggling a jetpack in storms but it doesn't make a lot of sense that the jetpack can get struck by lightning (a literal explosion) and function as if it did not just explode

and it's an added niche for the cruiser, which could either protect the jetpack from lightning (if it were in the back) or just let you transport items in an alternate way

[raven patrol]

I mean it makes sense but is also kinda cruel, like rng just decides your $900 item is going down the drain

I think it qualifies as the unfair rng encounters that we often do not like

[analog cypress]

although it's hard to use jetpack on stormy and makes sense for it to explode, i agree that it's not cool spending 900$ for it to explode the next day

[daring oar]

@raven patrol @analog cypress rng does not explode your item

you take it outside of the ship and let it get struck by lightning

you have the choice to not do that

i would agree if not for the fact that it is in the player's control to avoid the circumstances that could lead to it happening with no uncertain terms

[analog cypress]

i would be cool with this decision if there was a way to restore an exploded jetpack spending money

but i prefer exploding in the air on a stormy moon trying to use the jetpack instead of it becoming unusable

[daring oar]

also tbh since the forest giant sight thing is most likely a bug fix + i found out it's completely host-side, i think i'm just gonna move that to butteryfixes

i will make it toggleable still, since it's a pretty heavyhanded change, but i don't want to require it to be installed here

[unreal ginkgo]

Radmechs seem to walk in place ever since you've restored their v64 behavior

01951afe-ac9e-c414-9cd2-c4206391da9f

[daring oar]

does toggling the setting on/off make a difference

i played around with it yesterday and old birds walked around just fine

[unreal ginkgo]

Haven't tried that yet, will do after school

But it's a thing I've noticed ever since the most recent ButteRyBalance update. It's haven't happened before

[analog cypress]

you mean it being able to see very good on snowy moons or being able to see crouched players as if they aren't crouched?

[daring oar]

the only thing that i could see is potentially causing this is FinishedCurrentSearchRoutine() which does a raycast upward that would collide with its head object

but that would also mean they'd freeze in place if they were underneath a roof in vanilla

like inside the artifice warehouses

so im doubtful that is causing trouble

[daring oar]

matty is talking about syncing crouch state in additionalnetworking

i was talking about the stealth meters not decreasing when all players are out of sight

[analog cypress]

oh ok

[daring oar]

the snowy moon thing is a subjective change and i wouldn't move that over

[raven patrol]

That is a good point, but I still am not really on board. This basically is just a nerf to non-Cruiser moons

If it is a config then I have not issue with it being included, I just will turn it off. I think Jetpacks exploding if a player has it in their inventory while being struck by lightning is adequate

[signal stream]

Ideally visualisation is done via gizmos and handles. Not saying to correct you just incase you’d want to know

[signal stream]

That kind of thing was a big example in my pathfinding testing stuff

[daring oar]

it will be a config since i know it will not sit well with everybody

on that note, jetpacks are not destroyed just from being in the inventory of a player that dies

in your example the jetpack would not explode

jetpacks only explode if they were dropped by a player that is now dead, and died with jetpack controls enabled

which means jetpacks would explode if tulip snakes drop you to your death

and wouldn't explode if you are eaten by a giant with an activated jetpack in your hands

[signal stream]

though if a mod is ever made for more interesting tailor made dynamics a burning jetpack inside the stomach of a forest giant should absolutely wreck it

[daring oar]

shrug

maybe i'll do it here

this has kind of become a vehicle for me to just do weird experimental things that demand all clients' installation

[signal stream]

You being so client side pilled we’re your training weights

[raven patrol]

Ah that is interesting. I actually would be on board with a change like that

Giants eating Jetpacks and the Jetpack exploding but string the Giant on fire would be a funny inclusion too

I am all for making the Jetpack more volatile, but lightning just smiting it when you try to use it is where I draw the line I think

[unreal ginkgo]

Vile vending machine reference

[naive mesa]

Using jetpacks on stormy moons isn’t as bad as people think it is. Especially on artifice

Unless you’re transporting conductive items, in which case it’s hell

Transporting 1 gold bar took 3 in game hours

[raven patrol]

I agree, but Buttery’s change would make it bad, and not in a good way imo

[daring oar]

jetpacks are only barely inconvenienced by stormy weather and still allow you to basically ignore the mechanic of the weather

conductive items are a lot less of an issue when they are in your inventory for a fraction of the time they would normally be

the cruiser is at least a lot more demanding of skill and its whole "portable home base" aesthetic fits with making it a safe space for transporting conductives

[raven patrol]

I think you underestimate Cruiser, even without Weedkiller it can completely take over your strategy if you learn the controls

Which takes like an hour of two if you care

[naive mesa]

Most vanilla maps don’t support the cruiser very well

That is one of its costs

[analog cypress]

The most important ones which are Rend and Artifice supports it very well

[unreal ginkgo]

Maybe for Adamance and Titan, but it’s still good everywhere else

[raven patrol]

Exp, Vow, and Ada are the only moons without any Cruiser tech, every other moon has at least one entrance that can be reached with a Cruiser with relative ease

[analog cypress]

Experimentation is kinda pointless cuz the danger is low, Titan is vertical, Adamance is the worst map to use the cruiser

[raven patrol]

Actually scratch that Alex taught me an Ada Cruiser tech that uses Extension Ladder to load it from Fire, so only Exp and Vow

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh yeah true

I forgot that

[analog cypress]

Assurance you can't get to the main entrance but can easily go to the fire exit, Offense depends on the RNG boulders

[unreal ginkgo]

You can do it even without a ladder

[analog cypress]

hey, using cruiser on Vow is very viable

[raven patrol]

Ye on Ass and Off you go to fire

[unreal ginkgo]

Though you can’t get back up to fire so you have to go down when you know you’re ready to go

[naive mesa]

The average player won’t really use the cruiser on many moons so be the skill curve is quite high

[raven patrol]

What route is that

[analog cypress]

you just have to use a jump to got to the main entrance through the side of the bridge

[naive mesa]

I’d hardly imagine that learning how to use the cruiser on unconventional moons deserves punishment

[analog cypress]

or position it well

hitting some trees

[unreal ginkgo]

Cruiser is great for Vow’s fire exit

[raven patrol]

It really is not though, you can easily bumble your way to the exits if you understand the controls at all. Ass is the only moon that will give super inexperienced players a lot of trouble because of its terrain divots. You just have to actually give it a chance

[analog cypress]

yeah, but you can do some shenanigans to get it to the main entrance

[unreal ginkgo]

Vow’s fire exit is notoriously risky, and the Cruiser helps alleviate some of the danger

[analog cypress]

even through it's better on the fire exit i agree

[unreal ginkgo]

(1-shotting forest keepers at full throttle lol)

[naive mesa]

The main issue I have with vow is it feels like time goes too quicker there

I know it’s the same on every moon but there’s something about it and I don’t even know what

It’s smaller than most maps too

It just feels like it becomes noon then 3 then 5 too quick

[unreal ginkgo]

Vow is like March but if all the entrances were at main

[raven patrol]

With Vow you have to go slower because of the Giants and that wastes time

[naive mesa]

Even before giants spawn

[unreal ginkgo]

The walk from the ship to the facility on Vow is pretty long, so that’s probably why

[naive mesa]

Also it uses mineshaft primarily

Which is probably the most time consuming interior

[signal stream]

a majority of the players cannot take the cruiser to an entrance and return to the ship without dying

[raven patrol]

Well a majority of players tried Cruiser for 5 minutes and then gave up forever

[naive mesa]

This
Being good at cruiser jumps or learning routes for the cruiser doesn’t warrant a nerf for it. Most people can’t do it and the learning curve is the nerf.

[signal stream]

ok

the cruiser was meant to be bad

i'm not saying your wrong for being able to use it productively but players being unable to do the same is an intended experience

[raven patrol]

I think you guys are missing my point. I do not like the Jetpack nerf because it nerfs non-Cruiser moons and punishes people who do not bother with Cruiser

[daring oar]

i think it is important to mention that this only affects those levels and those players during a specific weather condition

[analog cypress]

Let's discuss considering that 95% of players can't use the Cruiser correctly.

Experimentation, Titan and Adamance are pratically unusable.
Vow and Dine are hard.
Assurance and Offense are manageable.
March, Rend and Artifice are very easy

[daring oar]

and only affects what is currently the most overpowered single item in the entire game

[signal stream]

I don't think punish is an accurate word in this sentence

[unreal ginkgo]

Rend is fucking abysmal to drive on personally, unrelated to the topic

[naive mesa]

I’d argue rend is also somewhat hard

It’s fog is the strongest in the game without foggy weather

[unreal ginkgo]

Rend is super claustrophobic and dark while Dine is much more spread out

[daring oar]

the cruiser is definitely usable on every map that this nerf affects

[analog cypress]

that's just because of the fog, if you know the map it's just easy

[daring oar]

with the exception of titan, which is also one of the maps that least requires usage of a jetpack or cruiser anyway

[naive mesa]

The light poles make it difficult too

[raven patrol]

The Rend route is simple but the blizzard means if you twitch the steering at all you are in trouble

[naive mesa]

And the shortcut isn’t widely known and requires going in the dark

[raven patrol]

Rend is definitely a harder Cruiser moon

[unreal ginkgo]

Yeah this is probably it

[analog cypress]

you could place the cruiser on a position to receive falling items from a extension ladder from the top

so it's usable

[daring oar]

as well as rend's fire exit, i'd say

[unreal ginkgo]

Going from the dark into a blinding light pole is agonizing

[daring oar]

driving the cruiser to rend's fire exit is basically suicide and nobody seriously does it (at least not to my knowledge)

so being unable to use jetpacks would entirely hinge on rend fire exit deliveries being done on foot exclusively

[unreal ginkgo]

Doesn’t help that in vanilla, dogs will be trailing behind you, and in my modpack, it’ll be barbers trailing behind you instead

[daring oar]

but this is also in the context that the cruiser still works to drag loot in and out of the main entrance

[analog cypress]

i can't see fog cuz low-end-hardware

[daring oar]

and that rend is still, regardless, one of the easiest endgame planets in the game and one of the safest endgame exteriors discounting the need for map knowledge

[naive mesa]

This is a bit of a hot take but loads of people often criticise rend for being too easy for the amount of loot you can get, but I feel it’s somewhat warranted when the fire exit is unplayable for the average user

[daring oar]

it's not unplayable for the average user

there is a learning curve to it but it's not difficult to remember the path once you learn it the first time

[naive mesa]

It’s very far out. I’ve seen people get lost countless times on the way back

Even after visiting multiple times

Including myself

[daring oar]

all you need to do is go up the hill, and then walk alongside the right side drop all the way back to the ship

[naive mesa]

Most people don’t go up the hill

That I’ve seen atleast

[signal stream]

Personally I think this kind of thing sort of runs into a semi-problem with this mod fundamentally where imo the nerf to the jetpack is totally reasonable and valid and in the event this nerf creates a desired buff to item transport in general, because this mod isn't adding any major content outright the only target to receive this buff would be the cruiser which in my opinion doesn't need a change here.

I'm not saying the answer is to add new content but more-so to acknowledge an ideal solution to the problem may be out of scope for this project and there may have to be a compromise

[naive mesa]

Some do

[unreal ginkgo]

Why is it suicide? How tight is it?

[daring oar]

if you walk alongside this pathyou will never get lost

[unreal ginkgo]

Can’t you also just

[daring oar]

obviously an absolute new-to-rend player won't know that but it is just a knowledge check

[unreal ginkgo]

disable it if you don’t like it

lol

[crude pier]

Dine is verrryyy good too imo for it

[analog cypress]

if you're confident, go to the right and take the shortest path, if you're willing to take the long route, go left and get to the poles near the building, if you're a psycho, get your 2 extension ladders and cross the ravine

[naive mesa]

I feel a little silly

[signal stream]

sure but also i don't respect a users ability to configure every aspect in a mod so my opinion doesn't reflect that option

[analog cypress]

If you're using TonightWeDine with v50 layout, i agree

[unreal ginkgo]

What, why?

[analog cypress]

fire exit with cruiser is just easy

[crude pier]

old dine?

[daring oar]

i don't think there "needs to be a compromise" in this case because the compromise is just not using the change if you don't like it

which i know has already been suggested to you and you are probably in the process of responding to that

[crude pier]

I was talking about the new dine

[naive mesa]

Regardless though, the fire exit is undeniably harder than all other moons. You could argue offense but if you find the exit inside you can get a free path straight to the ship

[unreal ginkgo]

Even v60’s Dine is great for the Cruiser

[daring oar]

but that is, at least, why i don't see problems tackling it that way

[unreal ginkgo]

Mainly due to the eastern portion of the map being barren

(For reference, the front of the ship is north)

[daring oar]

it's definitely the hardest fire exit but in the context of this discussion being "you can't use the most expensive item in the game to make traveling to/from the fire exit shorter" i don't think it actually matters that much

[crude pier]

yeah the east side is perfect

[signal stream]

It's a massive strain on content creation and in general users are pretty bad at making decisions like that. Game Design is a core discipline in game development and in a lot of cases I believe users should either trust the choices the author made to decide that mod might not be for them.

This is my opinion and is not indicative of how I think other authors should create content

[analog cypress]

There's Dine pre-V50 (Rend copy), Dine V50 with the straight line fire exit and Dine now with fire exit on the building

[daring oar]

anybody who is making use of jetpack on stormy rend in vanilla would most likely know how to return to the ship from the fire exit

[naive mesa]

We were on the topic of rend so I thought I’d bring it up ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[daring oar]

or, at least, be in the position to learn very easily, since you can see perfectly through fog if you fly above the map with the jetpack

the rend fire exit is definitely a scary challenge to overcome if you've never been there before, especially since rend is the map with the thickest fog (even counting foggy weather) and there is no hand-holding like the ship <-> main entrance path

but once you learn the trick of just walking along the edge of the cliff, unless you forget to bring a flashlight for the dark, it is pretty much impossible to get lost

it leads straight to the ship

[analog cypress]

nerf Jetpack, make the fog go through the sky and beyond

[daring oar]

anyways sorry im getting a bit off-topic

[unreal ginkgo]

How is the Cruiser a suicide here again?

[raven patrol]

I would argue learning this path is about a hard as learning rudimentary Cruiser controls. If you learn to just not floor the gas and tap the steering to avoid rocks you can do a lot of the strategies discussed earlier, even if it is 12pm by the time you reach an exit it is still faster than transferring stuff on foot. With both it just comes down to setting aside an hour or so to learn it

[unreal ginkgo]

This looks extremely clear of any obstacles

[daring oar]

rend's fog is nearly impossible to drive through if you are not following the light path

[naive mesa]

I can’t speak for everyone but nobody in my group goes to fire exit unless we can’t find much at main or we have a jetpack. Even then it’s just 1-2 of us

[daring oar]

at least in my experience

you get close to 0 visual feedback driving on rend

[signal stream]

a compromise in the context of you design changes with the intent of improving the game in a way that is aligned with the pre-existing values and intents of the game but the restriction of being unable to provide major additional content limits potential solutions that may otherwise be stronger

[unreal ginkgo]

Doesn’t the Cruiser have headlights to help though?

Should help…

[daring oar]

if the cruiser falls off the cliff while you are driving to fire

it is stuck in that pit forever

good luck trying to get it out with weed killer

you will probably sooner crash it and explode it than recover it

[daring oar]

respectfully, have you ever driven to fire exit on rend

[naive mesa]

I personally think the fire exit on rend is unlikely to be used by most players that often

[daring oar]

if you have not tried it before then i don't think i could explain with words how bad of an idea it is

lol

[raven patrol]

I find headlights to be a detriment in blizzards, the light refraction just blinds you

[crude pier]

I have but I can get there just by muscle memory haha

[unreal ginkgo]

Yeah, and a few times ending up in the canyon

[daring oar]

lol

okay

and that's the issue

[unreal ginkgo]

I’ve gotten better at it though, but I don’t visit Rend a lot, so

[daring oar]

in that case

then my point is strengthened further

because the people who the jetpack nerf affects aren't even unable to reasonably drive to rend's fire exit like i had assumed

shrug

[crude pier]

what if the fog reduced itself when you're sitting in the cruiser with the headlights on?

[analog cypress]

funny how Zeekerss just added the most op shit to the game and still managed to make most of the player base think the cruiser is just ass and prefers to not learn it

[daring oar]

anyways i could talk all day about this change but i feel like it's probably not going to change hearts and minds anyway

in my head it is a good idea and a fair change with countermeasures in the player's control to handle it

but i also see the perspective that jetpacking in stormy is already its own challenge and not being able to do that might subtract fun for a percentage of my audience

[unreal ginkgo]

I forgot what the idea even was… I just came here because I like arguing

[daring oar]

at the end of the day this is why it is toggleable anyway

[analog cypress]

you could just add that option and make it disabled by default as it's not very popular

[signal stream]

most of the player base thinks the cruiser is just ass because it is. pro usage of it isn't inductive of how it is used on average, that would be like saying mechanics in a game should be nerfed because of weird speedrun tech

[raven patrol]

I still think you guys underestimate Cruiser. Even if it can only reach one entrance and cannot get there quickly it is still crazy powerful, having to only do 1 total transfer saves several in-game hours. But guess asking people to be patient is too much

[daring oar]

just to be clear, btw, im also one of the people that enjoys jetpacking in stormy for the thrill

[raven patrol]

No Weed Killer or hours of solo practice needed

[analog cypress]

i ain't using speedrun techs, i think that the cruiser flying with items on top should be patched

[daring oar]

so i'm not even saying this from a perspective of sympathy

[analog cypress]

idk how buttery didn't do that yet

[crude pier]

will there be an option for the pre v55 jetpack price? ($700)

[raven patrol]

Jetpack does not need buff 😭

[daring oar]

probably not in my mod, because IMO, the last thing the jetpack needs is buffs

[crude pier]

I've never had the chance to use the jetpack because of how pricy it is

[daring oar]

if anything I'd really rather increase the price, but that is likely to be an unpopular change (and I don't even think I would use it in any of the groups I play with)

[raven patrol]

There are several mods to edit shop prices if you want it to be 700

[crude pier]

even at $700

[daring oar]

this is kind of an unfortunate truth about this mod as well

unrelated to any of the prior conversations

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh, I see. What would be the counter-play here? Just haul ass indoors/under cover as fast as you possibly can?

[signal stream]

A good solution to this kind of thing is hard to implement tbh. Item's aren't really built to be flung around or anything

[daring oar]

a lot of the changes i have made in this mod are changes that I agree with are good and make the game better (in my vision) but not stuff that i'd force upon everybody else i play with

like, right now, none of my groups play with the nutcracker 1 HP thing because I think it'd be really hard to update people on the fact that "in this lobby, nutcrackers have a special mechanic that changes how you need to interact with them"

[analog cypress]

😔

[unreal ginkgo]

Purple suffering from the last stand nutcracker in my modpack was certainly an experience

[daring oar]

v49 jetpacks are another thing that I think objectively improve the jetpack, but a lot of my friends only learned the jetpack because v50 streamlined it, so it'd be awkward to force that upon them

[analog cypress]

also, i don't think the cruiser shouldn't be able to fly... is funny being able to do that WITHOUT scrap, but being able to do that with scrap just takes out the fun from learning how to drive the cruiser to just become good at a bug

[raven patrol]

Jetpack should be more expensive honestly, but there comes a point where it just gets so grindy it is not that fun. LC is a high score game where players are OP and play until the quota scales to where it is physically impossible, so progression should be fast-paced to an extent

[daring oar]

i think we just fundamentally disagree on that perspective

which is okay, games mean different things to different people

[unreal ginkgo]

The Cruiser jump isn’t a bug?…

[daring oar]

but i think lethal company's biggest issue right now is how much of the content in the game is completely skippable

it doesn't feel like it's designed in a way to encourage exploring most of it

[signal stream]

i feel like if zeekerss saw someone describe the game this way he would quit working on it lmaoo

[daring oar]

if you're optimizing lethal company you are rushing straight from quota 1 to quota 2 on rend or artifice, the 2 meta planets

and eventually you reach a point where you are only visiting artifice every single day for the rest of your run

[raven patrol]

Well if I am wrong then what is LC

[daring oar]

this is going to happen anyway, because artifice is the #1 best planet in the game, and you need that kind of profit to sustain the absolute-highest-possible score. but objectively the best way to play is to start visiting artifice on quota 2 and never leave

so you get 3 days on a planet of your choice (which is usually assurance or adamance)

[unreal ginkgo]

Unfinished

[daring oar]

at best you get 3 days on another planet like rend

and then you have 30-40+ days of artifice

and all of the other levels are completely off to the wayside

[daring oar]

that is what lethal company winds up being, i dont think you are wrong. but I don't think that's what lethal company is designed to be, nor what it can excel at being

[crude pier]

Yeah I think lethal company's progression is wayyyyy too fast
It's super easy to go from cycle one (base free moons) to titan on the second cycle. If you get extremely lucky you can even make it straight to artifice

[raven patrol]

What is it designed to be then

[daring oar]

so much of the game's content ceases to be relevant if you minmax it and I think that is an indicator the game is designed poorly, to some degree

even in a perfect world I don't think 100% of the game's content is going to be appealing or useful to everyone

the zap gun is kind of always going to be shit unless you nerf the hell out of all the other weapons, which costs way more fun than you earn back in content variety, IMO

i think the levels are the biggest example of that imbalance because it's way too easy to rush through all the stages of progression in a single run

going from free moons with no equipment -> the first tier of purchasable moons -> the endgame moon over the course of only 3 checkpoints is pretty absurd for a game that has 11 levels total

[crude pier]

I would love some kind of mechanic where you can unlock moon routes for the full price and after you unlock those moons they'll be cheaper going there a second time. Also it would be great if the earlier moons loot pool increased the later you go on into a playthrough to make it so you have the option to go to other moons rather than artifice 24/7.

[signal stream]

we've had this convo before. I think LC is designed to be a casual multiplayer game designed to create an experience where you and your friends feel powerless against the creatures that are lurking about. It creates a horror experience that is very similar to the common horror trope of the final girl entering the house where the killer is.

The quota system is just a form of structure and a vessel for the players to want to go into these places they would otherwise have no interest in, with incentives to split up and go deeper inside the dungeon. The scrap quota system works greatly because they basically turn the game into a little trail of mini tasks for players to do that lead them into scary and funny scenarios naturally

Some people have called the game twitch/clip bait before and while I disagree with that due to the negative energy accosiated with it I don't actually disagree with the point objectively. I think the point of Lethal Company is to naturally and consistently get players into those scary and funny experiences organically

[daring oar]

and, IMO, the game doesn't even succeed at encouraging you to visit different planets each time you do a new playthrough, because the alternatives to the meta are so much worse. you dont necessarily have to play all 11 levels every single time you play (although that might be what the game turns into once the drill parts are added), but there's really no reason to say "fuck it, let's not go to assurance on our next playthrough" unless you are purposefully throwing for the sake of trying not to let the game get stale

sorry this is another one of my stream of consciousness dumps

[unreal ginkgo]

Agree

[vapid pier]

Spittin

[daring oar]

it's definitely true this game has been designed for a more casual audience, at least IMO, but I think it's impossible to add these sorts of structured scoring mechanics without encouraging everybody (even the casual players) to go for a high score

[unreal ginkgo]

Oh wait this is an archaic ass message

Where the fuck was I

[vapid pier]

lol

[daring oar]

which will naturally lead into optimizing, discovering a meta, and eventually could lead to optimizing the fun out of the game and making it stale

[vapid pier]

Start of the thread

[unreal ginkgo]

WHAT

[signal stream]

In terms of overall theming the game plays on companys mistreatment of employees in a highly stylised and exaggerated way, Hence the name Lethal Company. The company you work for barely cares about your wellbeing because its cheaper to just throw bodies at the problem. You are meant to feel worthless and extendable in the eyes of the company and you are designed to be put in situations where you often die

[unreal ginkgo]

HOW DID I END UP THERE

[signal stream]

absolutely

[daring oar]

LC's big problem with meta right now is that the meta is way too obvious and way too easy to take advantage of once it's learned, so pretty quickly you will optimize most of the game's content out of the picture if you continue to play

[signal stream]

people speedrun mario party lmao. people like winning

[vapid pier]

Replying to the 8th message in the thread 😭

(Ignoring the initial and pawsy)

[daring oar]

there will probably always be a meta, of some sort - but it'd be more fun if there could be multiple metas to choose between each time you play, or multiple metas that could maybe appeal to different playstyles, so the breadth of the game can be experienced

right now LC is a game with little depth and tons of breadth, but it's being experienced mostly on its depth, and so what it actually excels at doesn't really take center stage

[crude pier]

All we need is just multiple meta moons for different playstyles™️

[signal stream]

In spirit I agree but at the end of the day a game designed for everyone will be a shallow experience to everyone. You can absolutely compromise on a case by case basis but the experience will be a lot stronger overall if you stick to a specific intended vision

[crude pier]

so one best for jetpacks runs, one best for cruiser runs, and one for just on foot runs. (all being equally viable compared to each other)

[naive mesa]

How would that work?

Not being critical just genuinely curious

[crude pier]

just a moon specifically designed for one type of playstyle

[signal stream]

Not all design solutions can equally appease all demographics

[daring oar]

for sure, yeah, but in the context of a game appealing to an audience outside of the one it was originally designed for, i also think it's "a good thing" to design the game in a way where it can be enjoyed by that audience too

[naive mesa]

Like?

[daring oar]

now, i think it's "a good thing", but i don't necessarily think it's zeekerss' responsibility

[naive mesa]

I can’t really imagine how a moon can differ playstyles very well besides monster spawnrates

[raven patrol]

Having people wander around a facility so you can scare them is not a solid foundation for gameplay loop though, you need a tangible goal for players to work towards or else it feels kinda hollow. This game is a high score game when we boil it down but that does not lessen all of the small moments and scares that make it special and memorable. The high score system is just that vital backbone to keep players engaged after the novelty has worn off

[daring oar]

and i think so far we've seen a lot of cases where designing it for the intended audience makes it worse for the "accidental audience"

and that sucks and there's no clear answer to that issue

[naive mesa]

Maybe an increased amount of unkillable monsters for those bad at pvp, but that’s generic moon stuff

[daring oar]

but i still think there are some changes that shouldn't have ever happened working under this philosophy

i.e. the artifice "nerf", but that's a discussion i've had before and won't trudge up again

tl;dr: artifice can maintain its appeal for the accidental audience without having to compromise, especially since the compromise doesn't really affect the intended audience, IMO

[signal stream]

Yes you do need a tangible goal, hence the quota system. It exists to keep you on track, not to perfect.

The game does not need to keep players interested after the novelty wears off, The game does not need to be interesting forever.

[crude pier]

Well you can design a moon that specifically works best with cruisers and other options sub-optimally or have moons be best with the jetpack etcetc

[signal stream]

The game has a high score, that doesn’t mean it’s a high score game

[empty verge]

i mean cruiser moons fall into moons with an intended playstyle so i think it'd be stuff like a destroyed city moon with a focus on platforming and use of ladders and jetpacks

[raven patrol]

To be clear I am not insulting the game by calling it a high score game, I think it is a very novel combination of elements (exploration, horror, and endless/high score) that made this game stand out

[crude pier]

I can't wait for zeekerss to get back to lethal company once they're ready to work on it again

I'm sure zeekerss will have some awesome ideas cooked up by then

[raven patrol]

High score games are very underrated imo, they are the only kind of game that allows for both casuals and sweats to thrive in the same environment without have to expressly cater to either

[signal stream]

i didn't think you were being insulting, i thought you were wrong

[analog cypress]

The meta is like that because the moons aren't balanced, which this mod hopefully fixes, the equipment have a limited use and doesn't affect on the long run, like how's going to bring a boombox to counter slimes, how's bringing a lockpicker if there are plenty of keys on the ship, why buying a radar-booster if it's not useful on most cases? Why buying the extension ladder if it doesn't have enough uses? Zap gun, loud horn, survival kit lol, the jetpack is very when you learn it, but there aren't enough obstacles when using it

[raven patrol]

Well if the game is just to scare people and provide funny moments to share with friends then what makes it different then like Slenderman

[signal stream]

I mean fundementally not much?

LC is far more developed

[raven patrol]

How so? If the quota system is not a major part of the game then how much do a couple extra maps and enemies really provide?

[crude pier]

the extension ladder is really good on adamance and titan

[signal stream]

I didn't say the quota system is not a major part of the game.

[crude pier]

and also flooded assurance

[signal stream]

coins are a major part of super mario, i wouldn't say the game is about coins

except for that one super mario game about coins i guess

[raven patrol]

That’s not the same, you do not game over for not collecting coins

[vapid pier]

New Sup 2 😭

[signal stream]

ok sure lets go that way

dying in mario gives you a game over

mario is not a game about dying

that would be a very tragic and uncommon theme for a nintendo game

[analog cypress]

yes, but it could be more useful on other moons, Dine should have a second fire exit that requires extension ladder and one of March fire exits should require it too.

Loud horn should interact with entities on different ways, the radar-booster should be buffed (EnhancedRadarBooster mod does that very well), belt bag should work like the BagWheel, the game should have more kits with small discounts tbh, boomboxes could interact with more entities aside from slimes and mouth dogs

flooded weather should also interact with enemies

The game has a lot of potential

[raven patrol]

That is not what I mean, the coins in Mario are there to make the game easier by granting extra lives, but you could go without them (as some have done). LC’s quota system provides an in-game incentive to play and visit dangerous moons, ignoring it is ignoring the intended path of progression and just playing q1 (basically the tutorial) over and over

[signal stream]

the coins in Mario are not there to make the game easier

They are there to organically guide the player through the level

[raven patrol]

They still are just an embellishment and not fundamental to the game, even if their inclusion makes the game better

[signal stream]

LC’s quota system provides an in-game incentive to play and visit dangerous moons
This is absolutely correct.

But thats what it is

It doesn't exist as a mechanic to be perfected it exists as a solution to guiding the players to the intended experience

[daring oar]

for what it's worth

it can be both

[signal stream]

It can but I personally don't think that's an intent

[daring oar]

although, at least in all the patreon posts so far, it is strongly implied that it ultimately exists as a way to gate progress towards an end goal

[signal stream]

Here's a good quote from Zeekerss himself

So you could say the high concept of Lethal Company is this: a teamwork game which is secretly about separation and singling out and breaking apart. You may be together with a team, but each of you will be alone in their unique experience of the horrors that await you.

[raven patrol]

That is an interesting point, but like, let me put it like this. In Super Mario Maker 2, you can set levels to make it so you have to collect a certain amount of coins to beat the level. I think this is a better parallel to LC’s quota system

[daring oar]

the profit quota is what presses you to keep performing as best as you can to keep your run going, because you need the time to eventually repair the drill and break through gordion

and failure to keep up that pressure wipes your progress and sends you back

that's not relevant now, where that objective doesn't yet exist, but it is explicitly named as a goal of the quota system

in the full scope of the game's design

[raven patrol]

I guess I should clarify that I am taking the game as it is, the drill could change things a lot. I am not totally confident Zeekerss will ‘finish’ the game, he could just turn off the ‘early access’ label tomorrow and that would be that

If the game is given an ending then yes it is not a high score game anymore

[daring oar]

I am not totally confident Zeekerss will ‘finish’ the game
out of curiosity, why?

[signal stream]

At the start of this project I talked about how I wanted Lethal Company to have risk-vs-reward mechanics similar to a roguelite, where you can cut your losses or risk losing it all--like a hidden difficulty setting that is intrinsic. Now I've circled back to this, but it makes sense now. If you gamble all your money to travel to a faraway planet but bring nothing back, you could end up at square one, forced to return to the cheapest planets--the end of a "run." This accomplishes many of the goals I had with the game's progression system from the very start.

I could have done a plain level select screen, but then each round would feel like it has no real consequences. There has to be some greater purpose to the moment-to-moment gameplay--usually for me that's a story and plot. But this isn't a single-player game, so the long-term gameplay loop has been elusive to me.
Here's another good quote

[daring oar]

welcome to the dark place is still a WIP even 5 years later, and he seems more confident now than ever it will be ready for release this year

[raven patrol]

He is moving on to other projects and has said he at an impasse as to how to add the drill. This is just me but I have accepted the game for what it is

[daring oar]

it steals saw way more post-launch support than he anticipated and expanded to a scope several times larger than the game was intended to be

and one of the reasons he cites he's taking a hiatus from lethal company is to avoid feeling the need to rush its conclusion when he's not in the best headspace to develop it

at the end of the day it's all "just his word" but I don't think there's reason to doubt it given the history of his other projects

[raven patrol]

Ngl this kinda describes a high score game, taking risks to max your score or playing it safe for lesser results is what those kinds of games are built on

[signal stream]

ok man

[analog cypress]

We all know that repairing the drill is the final objective, but how's Zeekerss going to do that and what it achieves is the problem, what would someone expect to happen after you drill through the wall that contains an beast?

[raven patrol]

I do not mean to doubt him, I just am not expressly looking forward to the ending as the ultimate culmination of the game. I actually kinda like the Cosmic Horror idea that there is no ending and you are doomed to die

[daring oar]

meh

[analog cypress]

We could actually mantain that theme while giving an ending

[daring oar]

i feel like it's basically just minecraft and the ender dragon

[signal stream]

You quite literally doubted him

[daring oar]

most people do not play minecraft with the express goal of killing the ender dragon

there is an ending for doing it, and there is a loose trail of progression to reach that goal, but it's not the way to play

[raven patrol]

That is true, my bad. I just am a wait-and-see kind of guy

[daring oar]

after you beat lethal company by repairing the drill and going into gordion i still think there will be plenty of appeal to replay indefinitely

[raven patrol]

So much talk without results nowadays

Not talking just about Zeekerss

[daring oar]

and i think having the end goal incentivize a different way to play will be cool

right now challenge runs already exist where you have to play every moon in the game

like the ironman challenge where all planets are eclipsed and you spend a single day on each, and need to have the money to make it through each one

i think that sort of offers a glimpse into what "final lethal company" could be like, within the current bounds of what exists

[unreal ginkgo]

That’s Hardcore Ironman, not Ironman

Just had to chime in and clarify

[daring oar]

ok

[analog cypress]

By breaking the wall, you're dying because you're unleashing the beast but you're finishing what those that came before weren't able, you will end up dooming the entire galaxy because the beast is going to eat all planets, the company which seemed evil was actually a greater good. You ended the cycle at the cost of everything

[signal stream]

Honestly Minecraft's survival mode is a pretty good comparison point to Lethal IMO. It's just a vessel for delivering the intended experience

[analog cypress]

That's the kinda of ending i expect from Lethal Company

your efforts are all in vain

[daring oar]

anyways with the profit quota being infinitely scaling there will always be the potential to just grind for high scores and it will always be a valid way to play

[analog cypress]

you'll struggle to survive until the end

[raven patrol]

I do not mean to say the ending should not be added, I just am not head over heels it. I actually am a big Minecraft player, and to me the Ender Dragon is just the beginning, the game only starts to open up once you get the Elytra

[daring oar]

but i do really like the thought that eventually most of the game's content will be part of a player's experience

[jagged nexus]

Zeekerss already has stated he plans to finish the game when he comes back to working on it, people need to just be patient he stopped working on it to go focus on his other game cus it's in a pretty good place right now and he was losing steam

[daring oar]

assuming that he does the thing he's been alluding to, and scatters all the necessary drill parts across all the levels

[signal stream]

IMO the Elytra is Minecraft's biggest mistake but that's very offtopic

[unreal ginkgo]

Pretty good place… yeesh. I would say okay at best

[daring oar]

lol

today has been a radical day for discussion it seems

[unreal ginkgo]

I’m interested, though offtopic yes

TOMATO

GRR

[raven patrol]

I like stuff like this, only when people stick it out is some sort of understanding reached

[jagged nexus]

I mean with all the mods and stuff it has coming out and stuff it's in a great spot, yeah there's a ton of mods that fix bugs I get that but it's still in early access so it's to be expected

[daring oar]

maybe i am just not that critical to begin with, but i feel like lethal company's biggest flaws are mostly invisible to a large portion of the playerbase

[signal stream]

I think Minecraft is a game about building and creating and being able to fly across the world minimizes the incentives and scenarios in the game to promote said creativity

[daring oar]

like

[unreal ginkgo]

I don’t mean balancing btw, bugs

So

many

bugs

[daring oar]

im talking about bugs as well

[unreal ginkgo]

Thunderstore is practically mandatory if you pass over 50 hrs with this game Imo

[daring oar]

tons of people play the game competitively without mods and only a small portion of bug fixes are accepted as valid

and it's mainly critical gameplay ruining stuff

like the interact bug locking up all your controls until you rehost

[unreal ginkgo]

Or maybe I just really do not enjoy vanilla atm, Idk

[raven patrol]

I think it’s more so we take the game way more seriously than most players. To most it was the funny clip generator from 2023 (we agree it is not that but they see it this way) and its time in the limelight has passed

[daring oar]

like

[jagged nexus]

The game is best when you play Vanilla+ or heavily modded

right now for me it's Vanilla+ since Wesley's stuff came out

[raven patrol]

Indeed

[daring oar]

the cruiser has some really bad bugs that negatively affect my experience if i play the game without mods

[signal stream]

To most it was the funny clip generator from 2023 (we agree it is not that but they see it this way) and its time in the limelight has passed
And that's ok

[unreal ginkgo]

This is why I would say it’s not in a good spot

[jagged nexus]

Wesley's Journeys made me really wanna tone it down lol

[daring oar]

because im aware of them, and im also in a position where i am dealing with them most frequently

but like

[vapid pier]

the game getting into fortnite is huge methinks

[unreal ginkgo]

@balmy pier When are we getting off of Filitrios

[daring oar]

most players are not going to have dogs destroy the car because they parked it somewhere

and then immediately think "i cant believe this is the state lethal company was left in"

a lot of players would argue that sort of jank is intentional and part of the design

and while i wouldn't agree, i still think that principle applies to a lot of what is left

[raven patrol]

It definitely is, and is probably how the game was meant to be. For me though the high score aspect is what makes me and my acquaintances coming back, since we have done everything a causal would have

[balmy pier]

when you remember to spoiler the name of it

[daring oar]

almost my entire mod category is client-side mods for vanilla content that fix issues (big or small, objective bugs or subjective flaws) and i wouldn't want to play the game without them

[analog cypress]

i can't believe Zeekerss didn't patch the cupboard yet even through this game has been in early access from v45

It's kinda a valid complain

[signal stream]

And that's fine, but it might not necessarily be the intended and designed experience. Similar to speedrunners

[daring oar]

but i dont think any of them are essential to experiencing the game and i don't think it's like players are being left to rot in vanilla without them

[unreal ginkgo]

It’s pretty much like spoilering Artifice and Embrion at this point

[raven patrol]

That is still wild to me

[unreal ginkgo]

They still need to add skibidi toilet to Lethal Company

[daring oar]

the closest thing to "it's sad the game was left in this state" for me is optimization i guess

[vapid pier]

It

It literally is in Fortnite 😭

[unreal ginkgo]

Yes exactly

[vapid pier]

what

[daring oar]

bad optimization makes the game less accessible to players that are part of the target audience and would otherwise get a ton of enjoyment out of the game

[raven patrol]

Again, I am just taking the game as-presented. I do not have money to throw at Zeekerss’ patreon so I am going off what I know

[daring oar]

and it's the one thing that i would explicitly recommends mods for, to absolute newbies who have never touched the game before (or had friends show them the game)

[signal stream]

all of his patreon posts regarding lc are public

[daring oar]

since a lot of them are well-tested, stable, and comprehensive

[signal stream]

But even then, optimizing the game is a pretty extensive task

[daring oar]

yes, im not saying it's zeekerss' fault nothing has been done with it