#ButteRyBalance

1 messages · Page 5 of 1

wind spoke
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Weed killer was a Sisyphean task\

daring oar
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and that's another one of those miscommunications that just contributed to the whole mess

unreal ginkgo
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I'm still curious to how the fuck this would even happen

jagged nexus
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Yeah in the time it was in Beta it wasn't as bad, unfortunately this was cus longer play sessions didn't happen in the Beta release

daring oar
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how what would happen

jagged nexus
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So it never got caught

raven patrol
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I honestly think Vain Shroud unironically caused causal players to leave the game, Titan was the casual player’s last stop and it was affected the worst by Vain Shrouds. It was kinda a perfect storm in a way

unreal ginkgo
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Did they just play on a save file that had vain shrouds luckily away from the ship

daring oar
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im talking about vain shrouds growing back when killed with weed killer

unreal ginkgo
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Oh

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That's even weirder

daring oar
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i assume his change to vain shroud spawning just never got that much testing

unreal ginkgo
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He must've done something that suddenly broke it, or it was just confirmation bias

daring oar
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since he was releasing those as hotfixes after the update released (and he had probably feature tested everything with his friends, at that point)

runic cobalt
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i like hwo buttery is talking about oen thing, and the two people responding to buttery were thinking of something else

daring oar
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if im being honest, i still have no idea why the spawn bug happens

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i've re-read the code hundreds of times at this point and i can not comprehend what is causing it to not work

unreal ginkgo
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Probably networking bullshit if I had to guess, somehow

wind spoke
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every copy of the code is personalized

daring oar
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i wrote a completely separate system for it in yesfox and it works, so it is what it is

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but i wish i could understand why it's even broken in the first place

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because it makes no sense to me

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i feel like there were like

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4 separate chains of thought in this conversation i wanted to respond to

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and i cant remember any of them anymore

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i am enjoying talking

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at least

raven patrol
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I wish Zeekerss kept the Fox in the oven a bit longer like he did for the Maneater, I get LC is early access but players expect some quality, plus the game has been in early access for so long and development has slowed to where it feels like an empty statement

runic cobalt
daring oar
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i've been talking to myself all day writing the wiki

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at this point it's not even news

runic cobalt
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if it helps, thats a really good wiki

wind spoke
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yeah

runic cobalt
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well, atleast by my standards

wind spoke
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it is very nice

raven patrol
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Here Buttery goes being hard on herself again

signal stream
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the fox had a ton of quality

wind spoke
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yeah

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even if the balancing was off it had a lot of good

daring oar
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fox is dope as hell

unreal ginkgo
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Due to their cool-ass fluff stuff

daring oar
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there is nothing like the rush of discovering a new creature with new tricks in lethal company

raven patrol
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I will never forget my first Barber encounter

daring oar
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i think the fox is the most i've ever screamed except for maybe the butler

unreal ginkgo
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The barber was surprisingly scary the first I encountered it

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They still occasionally scare me to this day

daring oar
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i think in a lot of cases the fox is kinda just a background character

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whenever we reach artifice in our playthroughs, the fox pretty much always camps out in the exact same warehouse each time

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and we can run it over in the car on the way over to main most days

wind spoke
runic cobalt
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getting jumped by the enemies just kind of puts me on the fight response since i've seen em so much and know what to do.
but i still get hella jumped by my own enemies sometimes 😭

unreal ginkgo
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It goes without saying though vain shrouds and foxes weren't just done dirty, but so were barbers

daring oar
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but when the fox works it works so well

wind spoke
unreal ginkgo
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v55 was probably the worst for entities

wind spoke
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the sounds are amazing

raven patrol
unreal ginkgo
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Two entities were canned, and one entity was made rarer than they already were

wind spoke
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it didn't have enough time to rebalance

wind spoke
unreal ginkgo
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Vain shrouds

wind spoke
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OH

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yeah

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I forgot they're different entities

unreal ginkgo
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Idk why people don't categorize them as entities; they have a bestiary

raven patrol
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Kinda confusing because Barber was another v55 entity and it got the short end of the stick in v60 too

signal stream
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they are static plants you do know why people don't see them as entities

daring oar
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tbf barbers were always an afterthought

unreal ginkgo
runic cobalt
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in a similar vein, i think i'd rather vain shrouds didnt have scannodes, just kinda is in the way and i'd rather just enjoy the enviornment they give

unreal ginkgo
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Missed opportunity

jagged nexus
raven patrol
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I always thought of Shrouds as an extension of the Fox personally, I guess that is the wrong nomenclature

runic cobalt
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😔

daring oar
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also i wrote a bug report for the barbers but i think it was so massive zeekerss probably just decided he didn't want to tackle it perceive

unreal ginkgo
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Lmao?

raven patrol
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Bro thought it was an unhinged Reddit rant

daring oar
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this was around the time he was still reading the bug reporting channel

jagged nexus
unreal ginkgo
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Design-wise, no (Not including the dream effects)

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Everything else yeah

daring oar
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that's how he fixed the melee multi-hit bugs

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for example

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and that was nice

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v56 was a huge win for community bug fixes

jagged nexus
daring oar
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and we got a second round in v62-64

raven patrol
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Maybe a hot take, I kinda like the featureless goo man look, it does feel uncanny

daring oar
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but... v62 is where he capped barbers at 1

unreal ginkgo
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The fingerless gloves go hard as fuck thou

daring oar
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and i feel like it's pretty likely that was because he saw all of this and decided it wasn't worth it

image.png
unreal ginkgo
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Dear god

raven patrol
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That is a lot, no getting around that

runic cobalt
daring oar
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if it is not obvious

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i have a tendency to ramble and over-explain things

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i'm sure there is a more succinct way to package this information

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but barber bugs are rooted in a lot of separate functions that need a lot of fixes

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for them to work cohesively

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and zeekerss already basically confirmed the barbers were an afterthought

runic cobalt
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for an after thought, they were pretty good

daring oar
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so i assume he just didn't see much reason to spend so long working on them

unreal ginkgo
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Yeah, they had potential

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I hope he doesn't keep them essentially canned

daring oar
wind spoke
daring oar
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in his v55 patreon post he mentioned he might remove their invisibility but make them move faster

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for example

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which would completely change their design and, IMO, remove the part of them that works the best

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
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the invisibility is what makes them so interesting

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obviously that never happened but the point im trying to make is that he is okay with making huge sweeping changes to their design like that

wind spoke
runic cobalt
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i like the idea of "ah shit i hear one, im either fucked now or fucked later but i have no idea where they are" rather than "ah shit its baldi, lemme move out of the way and wait for it to get to my corner before bolting"

daring oar
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which suggests they were never set in stone to begin with

vague pewter
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btw is it possible to have butterybalance without the barberstuff and yesfox? I see they're dependencies but curious if they're toggleable or somethin

raven patrol
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It is insane how the afterthought enemy turned out to be the best part of v55 💀

unreal ginkgo
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True

daring oar
unreal ginkgo
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Barbers are an amazing entity /w their v55 behavior restored

daring oar
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it will work without yesfox completely (although I included it because i have settings to disable weeds on titan and embrion, the only two maps where they don't work well)

unreal ginkgo
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They would probably be my favorite if baboon hawks weren't as complex as they are

daring oar
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that being said, butterybalance does not work in vanilla lobbies

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and if you're playing with friends that use mods there is not much reason everyone shouldnt have barber fixes

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yesfox is more personal taste

vague pewter
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Ah ok, I'm slowly updating mods from like v45 so I'm not super familiar with barber/fox gameplay so I was gonna leave those for now, but reading more here yeah seems like the barber changes are good.

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It does work without yesfox though right? lol

unreal ginkgo
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She just said it does

daring oar
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yes, yesfox is completely optional

raven patrol
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Barber is simple, and you can get used to it quickly, I would wait on Fox though

vague pewter
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Sorry you didn't explicitly say it was optional, just wanted to doubledoublecheck!

daring oar
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yes my wording was confusing

unreal ginkgo
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triple check

daring oar
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you are fine

unreal ginkgo
vague pewter
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I'm in a triplechecking mood tryin to get mods to work lmao

unreal ginkgo
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You will spend a couple hours on it guaranteed

raven patrol
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v45 was long ago, you may have to abandon a lot of them ngl

unreal ginkgo
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Well, if you're like me, I guess

vague pewter
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haha yes only a couple

vague pewter
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never been so lucky with modding games like minecraft

raven patrol
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Ye, the community has been cooking for months now, one of the best modding communities around

tardy ledge
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Is it fine to disable YesFox?

daring oar
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yes, it is fine

raven patrol
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Scroll up like 10 messages 😭

daring oar
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it is a dependency because it is intended to be used with

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
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and the settings to disable weeds on titan/embrion do nothing if you dont have yesfox

unreal ginkgo
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/j

vague pewter
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biggest "issue" and why I'm in triplecheck mode is bc previous v45 had a lot of solo mods, but v60+ has a lot of sweeping mods with dubious compatibility

daring oar
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but you can just disable it if you dont like the fox

raven patrol
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You be surprised how well a lot of them work, nowadays it is just overrides rather than game crashes

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Also configs for stuff are standard now

jagged nexus
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Finally, I can get rid of FairGiants

20250210234700_1.jpg
daring oar
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yes

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fair giants is a good mod

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i dont even have anything against it

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but i only used half of its features + it didnt work with artifice blizzard

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so

jagged nexus
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Yeah, you would have to manually set it up and it was annoying

daring oar
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well beyond that

vague pewter
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I really liked giants motionsense ||I hope it still works||

daring oar
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you can put Artifice in the snow moons list on fairgiants

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
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but that will cause it to treat normal artifice (if you make the snow random chance) like a snowy moon

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which wasn't acceptable in my case

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boy oh boy i hope my friends play lethal company soon

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and we can see if this mod completely explodes in a real multiplayer session

raven patrol
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I know you’re usually against consolidation but I like how this is a big beefy mod that has lots of stuff in one place. Less mods is better for me

unreal ginkgo
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My rotten 167 mod modpack..,

daring oar
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my stance on consolidation is probably confusing

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in general i am not a huge fan of it

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but also

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i do not want to release like 20 individual mods for all the stuff i wanted to put in this one

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the infestation tweaks in this mod were going to be a separate release

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but i floundered around with it for like 3 days getting absolutely no work done on it

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and then lost motivation

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i wouldn't mind breaking some butteryfixes features up into smaller mods

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mask fixes was a good opportunity for me to do that with all the mask stuff

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i finally moved shotgun stuff to melee fixes

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etc

raven patrol
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The biggest part of my modpack is I challenged myself to 100 mods, so big mods like GeneralImprovements were eye-catchers. This will be like that too

vague pewter
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I think as long as everything is configurable (as in toggleable) its all good. I really like a lot of the generalimprovements stuff but I almost wasn't able to get it to work with darmuhsterminal bc you can't turn a lot of it off

daring oar
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there are probably 1 or 2 changes in this that can be toggled

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but i dont know what they are off the top of my head

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for the most part it should be almost identical to vanilla if you turn off all the features

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oh that reminds me

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i still need to do that enemysoundfixes update

unreal ginkgo
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For what entity?

daring oar
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i figured out the vent sound bug

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while i was testing infestation stuff earlier today

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lol

unreal ginkgo
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The what

daring oar
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vents making noise like 2 minutes before enemies spawn

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nutcrackers not using their special vent audio

proven delta
daring oar
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etc.

daring oar
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since other people could still walk through it

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and it would just look weird

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so i havent bothered

proven delta
unreal ginkgo
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Sorry I’m asking so many questions, and it’s not exactly related to BR, but I’ve been curious: What dictates when a kidnapper fox should yell?

daring oar
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it's a mating call

unreal ginkgo
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Or is it just random

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I know, but what dictates when they should do it?

daring oar
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as long as it's been hiding for long enough and hasn't attracted too much attention from players, it'll just happen randomly

unreal ginkgo
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Ah

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Cute, lol

daring oar
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no more than once every 7 seconds

raven patrol
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Alright here is a question, should Thumpers be 2 power instead of 3? I always considered their threat level to be comparable to Spiders which of course are 2 power, they just do not seem to be on the level of Jester or Bracken

unreal ginkgo
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Imo, no

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They’re a pain in the ass while you’re defenseless

raven patrol
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So are Spiders

unreal ginkgo
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Not rlly

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If you have to pass by them or touch their web in order to aggravate them

daring oar
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well i've said it before

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i hate thumpers and it's purely a skill issue

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i have never been able to fight them

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and they are really oppressive if you're not fighting them

unreal ginkgo
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For thumpers, they’re constantly camping an area, and once they find you, it’s hard to escape, especially with scrap

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Scrap you’re probably not going to get back without a shovel and an iron will

daring oar
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i do acknowledge it's skill issue so they don't need any nerfs, but i also don't see a reason to buff them as they are

jagged nexus
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Thumpers are annoying but pretty easy, the best solution is to juke them and have them keep ramming into walls

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cus they are slowed and you have a window to hit them after that

daring oar
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well yeah, getting away from them is okay

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oops

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but anyways i mean it's a pain to try and loot when they are patrolling an area

unreal ginkgo
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Ye

daring oar
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you need to focus them, conserve your stamina, etc.

jagged nexus
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Oh that I agree with, but they're easy to jump out of the way of usually lol

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and you can send them ramming into a wall

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they're like Bulls

unreal ginkgo
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Yeah, but they’re gonna be constantly looking for you for a while, and you only have so much stamina before they inevitably catch up if they rediscover you

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And when they do, it’s common that they’re already at max throttle

daring oar
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anyways TBH i think thumpers are 3 power level

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but i can see 2 level

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i have no strong opinion i suppose

unreal ginkgo
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For high quota runners, I can see it as 2, but on my own, 3 is where they should be

raven patrol
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I am not hard set, but I personally lean towards 2

unreal ginkgo
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Especially solo

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Fuck thumpers solo

raven patrol
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Well that is a lot of entities

unreal ginkgo
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Idk why I’m even giving my own two cents against this it’d be a setting I’d disable anyway

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But yeah

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Suppose it’s not that big of a deal

raven patrol
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It would be an offset to Coil nerf

unreal ginkgo
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Squishy 😭😭

image.png
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What does this mean, by the way?

image.png
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Like, forest keepers will only focus on one player at a time with this option disabled?

jagged nexus
unreal ginkgo
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Yeah, Idk what that means

raven patrol
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Their aggression meter decays if they do not see you for an extended amount of time, so when they see you again you have some time to hide

unreal ginkgo
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So this just makes them harder?

raven patrol
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Easier

unreal ginkgo
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Oh, I see. Basically what FairGiants does

jagged nexus
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Makes them easier, in Vanilla once they see you they never lose aggro and will always instantly chase you after being seen the first time

raven patrol
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Then they see you it takes longer for them to re-the

unreal ginkgo
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Worded very weirdly

raven patrol
unreal ginkgo
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I don't like Artifice as an ice moon, so Idc personally

jagged nexus
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I was happy to yeet FairGiants

unreal ginkgo
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FairGiants has random wander + the feature to divide their fov in fog, not blizzards, which is why I'm keeping it

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Forest keepers are hard, but not unfair in blizzards from my personal experience

jagged nexus
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Apparently they already have it reduced in foggy weather in Vanilla

image.png
unreal ginkgo
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What? The fuck?

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@daring oar Is this true

daring oar
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yes

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it has always been a feature

unreal ginkgo
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Okay FairGiants is straight up unneeded then lol??

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Ok

daring oar
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by default, forest giants see 70m

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they see 30m in foggy

unreal ginkgo
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Oh nvm that's still dogshit

daring oar
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fairgiants reduces it further to ~23.33m by default

jagged nexus
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Yeah that difference is negligeable imo

daring oar
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because it's a divisor

jagged nexus
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Vanilla's Value is fine

daring oar
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pretty much

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fairgiants is good because of decay

jagged nexus
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FairGiants' values were more balanced back when fog was really hard to see in

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But it's got a lot of fixes now

daring oar
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but i patched decay myself in this most recent update

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and anti-camp was fixed in vanilla

jagged nexus
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Yup

jagged nexus
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Cus the main issue with it in Vanilla is it's ass in literally any interior besides Facility

unreal ginkgo
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It's still dogshit in the Factory

daring oar
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no but it is a fairly subtle difference

jagged nexus
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Ah

unreal ginkgo
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Especially so because Factory has common platforming

daring oar
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i dont think screenshots really work with the fog stuff

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it depends a bunch on where you're at, where you're looking, lighting conditions, etc.

jagged nexus
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I'm really concerned about how this might affect Generations for Mineshaft btw

image.png
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Lol

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It's the one Vanilla Interior that easily fails to generate fire exits

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XD

unreal ginkgo
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I assume she changed one of these three settings

image.png
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What were they reduced down to?

daring oar
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i didnt change any of these

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but basically you can emulate my changes

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by changing map tile size from 0.9 to 1.111111(111111111...)

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in lll

jagged nexus
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Btw I would guess this does nothing if you have WeatherRegistry

image.png
daring oar
daring oar
unreal ginkgo
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Or do they utilize the same function?

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LLL's description on it is vague

jagged nexus
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You still use Central Narpy? concern

unreal ginkgo
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Idk if it goes one way, or the other

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CentralConfig is not bad, Lunxara

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It's literally the backbone of my modpack lol

jagged nexus
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Batby would disagree with you

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XD

daring oar
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idk how centralconfig works

unreal ginkgo
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Well, I'm not Batby, so Idc

daring oar
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but i assume it is the same as LLL in this context

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because "map tile size" refers to an underlying property in vanilla

unreal ginkgo
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Hope so...

daring oar
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they are probably both changing the same thing

unreal ginkgo
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I have all of my settings in CC backed up in LLL's config in case CC one day shits the bed

naive mesa
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Is there any reason ButteRyBalance requires YesFox?
I use both so it doesn’t matter much to me just curious why

analog cypress
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Lots of cool changes, some weird ones but can be easily disabled

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🔥 buttery doesn't fail in making mods

fallen musk
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I personally do not like fox and would rather have it be disabled.

balmy pier
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you shouldnt have to use yesfox for everything else to function

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an issue for mod pack makers who dont want yesfox though

fallen musk
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Oh it's because of "no vain shrouds on titan"

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Tbh the only way I'd be okay with fox is having it work as a spawn chance rather than the vain shroud growth mechanic

balmy pier
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its actually both

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more shrouds = higher chance

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the fox runs its chance to spawn every hour iirc

fallen musk
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Yeah I know

naive mesa
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The fox is very balanced in YesFox IMO. Especially if you edit the config

fallen musk
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I'm saying I'd rather have it be strictly spawn chance

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I don't want the mold mechanic though

balmy pier
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the fox was balanced in vanilla alone tbh

naive mesa
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It was, but shrouds werent

balmy pier
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idk why zeekerss nerfed it, and didnt let people experience how much so it was

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cause it went from S to C tier threat lol

fallen musk
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I'd only play with fox if like

naive mesa
fallen musk
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it's random whether there are shrouds or no shrouds, random how big the shroud patch is, and it's location was random.

naive mesa
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During the first beta every moon had a 20% chance for shrouds every day

balmy pier
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zeekerss has made it clear he makes changes for beta versions that seem outrageous but nerfs them later for full release

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im pretty sure that was one

naive mesa
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I’m aware, and I don’t blame him for it. It should be common during the beta anyway

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The spawnrates after were fine

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The only other issues were the fact there were too many shrouds, sometimes you couldn’t remove them and the fact they could grow around the ship.

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Of course the latter two weren’t intentional

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But I doubt it helped with how much hate the fox got

fallen musk
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The fox is just a polarizing enemy

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If you don't know what it does, it's way too dangerous

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but if you do know, then it might as well not even exist.

naive mesa
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It’s still dangerous even if you knew what it did

fallen musk
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Not really

balmy pier
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not after the nerfs zeekerss did

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seriously, i havent had issue with it since (my main group plays with yesfox)

naive mesa
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YesFox fixes some bugs with the fox

fallen musk
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Fox seems like better suited for being a spawn chance enemy than the mold mechanic

naive mesa
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It’s different to vanilla. Those bugs aren’t intentional but with them existing in vanilla the fox was an annoying and sometimes difficult enemy.

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If the chance for vain shrouds rolled for a late game moon then they could grow up to 10 iterations and there’s nothing you could do

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During v56 it took my group and I a while to go to artifice

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When we got to artifice there was atleast 50 or 60 vain shrouds and a fox spawning immediately at the start of the day. It covered the most of the middle section. Specifically between two of the buildings

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The only viable route was going to the fire exit path through the hole in the fence

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It’s a very unlucky example but there can still easily be 10-20 vain shrouds on a moon by the time you get there. And because of some vanilla bugs which are fixed in YesFox you couldn’t remove all of them either. Some of them would get stuck in walls or in rocks.

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And more iterations would grow from the ones which were stuck.

analog cypress
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I'll be honest, i dislike the fact that YesFox is a dependency, but the mod is from Buttery, so she decides what to do, YesFox is required by all clients, if I were to use I would tweak it a lot cuz i dislike fox and his system, that would make my friends have to import my code with the changes

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I would rather buy a truck and run over that fox than playing with him

balmy pier
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luckily this is a thing you can do!

analog cypress
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What if I have YesFox and NoFox at the same time Trollface

naive mesa
analog cypress
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Schrodinger Fox

naive mesa
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There is a player with the cruiser and a fox outside. You are in the facility. You do not know if the fox is alive or dead until you exit the facility.

analog cypress
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Anyways, going away from this topic I'll just leave here an list with ideas for future updates 💡

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(Easy changes)
Upgrade

  • Remove Signal translator negative luck and make it 0 value
  • ITP cooldown from 210s to 30s

Tools

  • Decrease time required by lockpicker to unlock from 30s to 20s
  • Decrease price of Extension Ladder on store from 60$ to 45$

Scraps

  • Dust pans are exclusive scraps to spawn on Experimentation, Assurance, Offense. Slightly increase the value
  • Chemical Jug are exclusive scraps to spawn on Vow, March and Adamance. Slightly increase the value
  • Allow homemade flashbang on all moons
  • Allow gift boxes to spawn shotgun sheels

Entities

  • Spore lizard from power 1 to power 0.5 (Allows more dangerous entities to spawn)
  • Spider damage from 90 to 70 (Allows to tank some extra hits from Butler, Baboon hawk, Circuit bee and Snare flea)
  • Eyeless dog from 12 HP to 10 HP (Allows to kill it with 2 close shots with the shotgun)

(Hard changes)
Misc

  • Ghost girl can explode landmines she steps on during chase sequences (Makes it more chaotic and fun)
  • Very rare chance of 120% sell rate on company (Doesn't happen on the last day from the deadline)
  • Weed Killer will make bracken retreat immediately if he hasn't been attacked but for a longer time (42s?) instead of 21s (Not very useful but cool interaction with flowerman)
  • Loud horn makes Baboon hawk go away from a certain radius around the ship
  • Loud horn interferes with the Leviathan if he's close enough and it won't be able to follow players, although they'll still emerge if the player is on range
  • Loud horn makes Masked go straight to the ship if they are wandering outside and don't have encountered a player
#

The easy changes i assume are a few lines of code, the hard aren't plink

hushed dawn
#

what is signal translator negative luck?

analog cypress
#

All furniture/upgrade has a luck value associated that will help on the next profit quota and make it cheaper (Ex: 2104 instead of 2432)

#

But signal translator is the only upgrade that gives negative luck

hushed dawn
#

ohh

#

I had no idea that was a thing

analog cypress
#

Buying it increases the next profit quota

#

And that doesn't make any sense, why would you pay for a upgrade that does that

hushed dawn
#

I always thought buying furniture was just a waste

#

is this explained anywhere in-game?

analog cypress
#

Not anymore yoiled , it's a very small change but having all furniture's stacks it a lot

hushed dawn
#

is luck permanent or only for one quota?

runic cobalt
#

Perm while u have furniture

hushed dawn
#

wow

#

thats actually a really good mechanic

#

sucks that its an invisible one

analog cypress
runic cobalt
#

It's pretty okay yeah

hushed dawn
#

just gonna add that to my list of game design complaints about this game lmao

#

I have a very strong love hate relationship with lc

analog cypress
hushed dawn
#

but yeah it makes no sense for signal translator to be negative if teleporter is positive

runic cobalt
# analog cypress

If those luck values are right then they're practically negligible I think, I'd have to recheck the code later but that seems like an amount that would do basically nothing

hushed dawn
#

I can get that the signal translator is powerful and so it should make the quotas harder

#

and you can buy furniture to offset it

#

that would be an intelligent way to design it if it applied equally to other upgrades

analog cypress
#

Teleporter is much more powerful in my opinion

hushed dawn
#

prevents you from just immediately stacking on upgrades

#

yes

#

it is

#

well, its powerful but it has an inherent cost in its use which is that you dont bring back scrap

#

signal translator is powerful with no inherent cost in its use

analog cypress
hushed dawn
#

so it would make sense for that cost to be in its luck

#

but really this all only would make sense if the mechanics were explained in game and if all the upgrades were balanced with this kind of logic

analog cypress
#

I mean, it's a cool feature because people can't complain about how useless it is to buy furniture

hushed dawn
#

yes

signal stream
#

it's not meant to be game-ified like that, hence why it's not explained

analog cypress
#

I also wanted sigurds logs increasing the luck by a bit

#

Would make players also seek for the logs

#

And maybe read them

hushed dawn
#

the fact that it exists means it can be gameified, but that gameification is gated behind meta knowledge about the game

#

since LC is really an arcade game about mastery of mechanics, imo it would make more sense to explain it and to balance it with consistent logic

#

than to do whats being done currently

signal stream
#

homies playing a different game 😭

hushed dawn
#

what is it then if not that?

signal stream
#

a casual borderline party game

#

absolutely not built for any kind of mastery

hushed dawn
#

you can call it a party game but that isnt descriptive about what the mechanics actually are

#

LC is not mario party for example

runic cobalt
#

Keyword is casual

signal stream
#

LC is closer to mario kart than any kinda competitive experience imo

hushed dawn
#

imo thats true because of execution rather than because of design. the incentive mechanics (get credits, reach quota, quota always increases) are about mastery, the more mastery the higher you can push the quota

signal stream
#

the quota mechanic is just a pretty generic gameplay loop to facilicate the intended experience

#

not judging you for taking it that way i just strongly disagree that the game is built in that direction primarily

hushed dawn
#

mario party has a goal that ends the game and mechanics that enable casual play and reduce the impact of mastery towards the result of the game

signal stream
#

game was originally his take on phas and patreon should be public now but pretty sure he's straight up doing a mario party type game next which comes across as a pretty natural transition too

hushed dawn
#

LC has a never ending goal that rewards getting better at it and mechanics (items, upgrades, risk vs reward with certain monsters and map design) that directly reward getting better at the game

#

there is a huge amount of luck to LC yes, but these I think are result of attempting to design a random experience every time but the execution of it is just kind of unbalanced

#

but its clearly different from mario party

#

or mario kart

signal stream
#

it has a never ending goal because it's an early access game with a currently non-existent ending (tho there will be a endless mode)

every game directly rewards being better at a game that means nothing lol

hushed dawn
#

those games actively balance out casual play with mastered play

#

with catch up mechanics and such

#

theres no equivalent in LC

#

just good luck and bad luck

signal stream
#

a majority of his patreon posts come across as wanting to deliver a more casual experience first and then ideally having that experience also be suitable for more competitive play naturally

hushed dawn
#

yes

#

thats fine

#

that isnt contradictory to me saying its an arcade game

#

think about pacman for example

#

classic arcade game

#

you just keep playing and pushing your score until you fail

signal stream
#

i never had an issue with you calling it arcadey

hushed dawn
#

LC does the same things

#

arcade games by design are about mastery

signal stream
#

i had an issue with you saying the game is about mastery of mechanics

hushed dawn
#

by being an arcade game it is about mastery of mechanics

signal stream
#

where as i think a lot of competitive players just enjoy mastering them

#

eg. people thinking the cruiser is overpowered when it was designed to be shit

analog cypress
#

Are you playing LC on an arcade machine? plink

hushed dawn
#

I get what you're saying but I think you are tying too closely the idea of mastery with the idea of being competitive. you dont need to be a competitive player to play pacman. that doesnt mean pacman doesnt incentivize mastery. a casual player will still want to get better at pacman regardless of if they know what the AI for each ghost is or not

#

you can choose to be a competitive pacman player and learn the optimal strategy and what each AI does but the game doesnt require you to do that

#

but the game does incentivize getting better via the score and the endless gameplay loop

#

which is the exact same thing LC does

#

so my point about the furniture luck mechanic is that its not just an execution of the core game, its an addition to the incentive mechanics but it isnt communicated when in my opinion it should be

analog cypress
#

The problem with that logic is because most arcade games are very consistent on their mechanics, LC is RNG based, "roguelike"

hushed dawn
#

the game doesnt need to explain how the bracken AI works because that is just an execution of the core game

#

furniture luck mechanics are clearly not the same in that regard

analog cypress
#

The luck mechanic was probably made to help those who want to push the quota as far as possible (still very popular)

hushed dawn
#

man I never realized this until now but LC is just pacman

#

you go in a labrynth and collect scrap/pellets for score and avoid monsters/ghosts with AI

hushed dawn
#

though a major component of roguelikes is mastery of mechanics so my point stands

proven delta
hushed dawn
#

yes

#

this is why I originally considered LC an arcade game

#

but I think the RNG / procedural generation elements make it a roguelike

#

doesn't really matter though, this is just semantics

balmy pier
#

you know lethal company is a roguelike because theres over 3 levels to explore

proven delta
hushed dawn
#

pretty much

silk lark
proven delta
#

This rng bastard

#

lol

daring oar
#

but you can set max iterations to like, 2 or 3

#

minimum weeds to 1

#

and then the fox will basically exist without shrouds

#

you can also just disable yesfox but i added the dependencies because otherwise some settings dont make sense

#

and also, ideally, my vision of "balance" includes the fox

silk lark
#

most arcade games had some form of rng to keep players coming back

analog cypress
#

well, i exaggerated a bit, but not all arcade games rely A LOT on RNG, most were just really hard

#

also, giants are very chill on snowy moons now ✌️

wind spoke
#

and the loud horn ones are good as well

daring oar
#

i dont like the idea of using weed killer on brackens or giants

#

and nobody is carrying weed killer inside the building anyway

#

i do have a couple of things i want to do for the loud horn

runic cobalt
#

People complained that weed killer should be killing urchins in surfaced

#

So I made it so that weed killer makes em grow infinitely bigger

proven delta
#

and die

runic cobalt
#

Adding death to lethal company is insane

alpine pollen
#

@daring oar Do you mind checking my modpack for compatibility issues? the most recent to RebalancedMoonsBeta adds this mod as a dependency.

0194f638-5abe-40d5-d359-e72db72b0e51

proven delta
runic cobalt
#

Might suit this mod more

alpine pollen
viscid edge
#

also gift boxes can't have shotgun shells because they use the moon's scrap weights

#

and shotgun shells don't spawn as scrap

#

spore lizard change would essentially do nothing because there isn't any other inside enemies with 0.5 power

runic cobalt
#

Modded enemies exist+ 2 spore lizards would fill up only as much as one

analog cypress
analog cypress
marble spruce
raven patrol
#

Signal Translator gives negative luck and Teleporter gives no luck, the two good ship upgrades

marble spruce
#

does the horn give luck lol

analog cypress
#

i would understand if teleporter gave negative luck

raven patrol
marble spruce
#

so it does

analog cypress
#

cuz you can bring people safely to the ship, bring bodies (which reduces the money loss)

#

sometimes even save lifes

marble spruce
#

disco balls lyck

#

j

#

oops

raven patrol
#

Also enables trapping tech for the sweats using powered doors

marble spruce
#

disco balls luck is so much higher than everything else

raven patrol
#

Fitting tbh, it is goated

analog cypress
#

but the signal translator is such a niche upgrade that would require people to create a own language to become really useful

#

like

marble spruce
#

eh not rlly

raven patrol
#

Hard disagree, you can say pretty much anything you need with 9 characters if you are smart

analog cypress
#

But it's really slow and doesn't allow for too much info

vapid pier
#

The walkie talkie

analog cypress
#

i've seen guys that do things like "BB LX G2" to "comunicate"

raven patrol
#

Yeah it balances it versus Walkies, Translator not taking up inventory is very powerful

raven patrol
#

Similar case for Loud Horn but nobody uses that for communication

vapid pier
#

How you use that for communication

analog cypress
#

loud horn just sucks fr, i just don't undestand why signal translator gets bad luck and teleporter doesn't

raven patrol
#

It is very limited

vapid pier
#

I was thinking morse code but I guess

raven patrol
#

Short press means Jester
Long press means Dogs at ship
Two short presses means Giant

#

Stuff like that

analog cypress
#

i used like:
1 short => entity nearby/behind
1 long => dog
2 short => get back
2 long => giants

raven patrol
#

I am excited for what Buttery has in store for the Loud Horn, Lorn disorienting Worms and Boombox scaring Baboons are the two things I most want

#

Radar Booster and Lockpicker buffs are interesting but mods already exist for those

daring oar
#

signal translator giving negative luck is fine

#

it's the best ship upgrade

#

and you can make up for its negative luck by buying literally anything else that gives luck

#

or just not use the signal translator

analog cypress
raven patrol
#

There also is a bug where you can store the translator while taking off from Gordion and its luck will not count for the quota calculation. You can then take it back out

analog cypress
raven patrol
#

I forget the timing but it does work

daring oar
raven patrol
#

My group uses it and it part of v69 HQ

raven patrol
daring oar
#

i intended to in 0.1.0 but i forgot

analog cypress
daring oar
#

the only thing you need to do is store the translator and take it back out at any point before quota refreshes

#

you only get luck for furniture that was sitting out when the new quota screen appears

#

and only if that furniture was never stored at any point in time before the next new quota screen

#

it is kind of a dumb system honestly

#

but it's so small it doesn't really matter

raven patrol
#

Ye, not sure why it is so complex

daring oar
#

i assume he just didn't want people gaming the system by putting away furniture and taking it out right before quota refreshes

#

but now it is unnecessarily punishing if anybody on your ship stores anything because that subtracts luck immediately and you can't get it back before the next quota

analog cypress
#

He could just make the act of buying the furniture the luck increase/decrease instead of having it on ship

raven patrol
#

Only way to prevent Translator exploit

daring oar
#

well im pretty sure his intent is that people use the furniture

#

otherwise he could just put a "luck" command on the terminal that spends money for luck

raven patrol
#

I mean luck is all people see furniture as anyway. I try to party with Disco Ball and Purple threatens to store it and prevent me from taking it back out

daring oar
#

nothing else immediately jumps out at me

alpine pollen
daring oar
#

i would advise disabling my shrink mineshaft setting

#

because i think terra balanced his mineshaft size around the vanilla size mult

alpine pollen
#

Gotcha

daring oar
#

and i will cause it to instead become too small

alpine pollen
#

Btw, could you make YesFox not a dependency? I dislike the kidnapper fox

daring oar
daring oar
#

but it is marked as a dependency on thunderstore because otherwise some of the settings i added do not make sense

#

and it is intended for yesfox to be used with it

alpine pollen
daring oar
#

alternatively, in that case, you can just set all of these to 0

image.png
alpine pollen
#

Works for me

proven delta
raven patrol
#

In regards to the rare 120% sell rate, I think what could be done is that the sell rate is completely random prior to last day (where it is always 100%), with rates above maybe 80% being rare, and rates above 100% being super rare. You have to be vigilant and check company buy rate every day to not miss out

runic cobalt
#

That's so unnecessarily OP

#

Going to company doesn't waste a day unless you fill up quota

raven patrol
#

I agree, but people are adamant about it because a Sigurd log has a precedent for it

runic cobalt
#

People can be adamant about it, doesn't mean its a good idea

#

Not with the implementation you suggested atleast

daring oar
# analog cypress (Easy changes) **Upgrade** - Remove Signal translator negative luck and make it ...

  • inverse teleport cooldown i have no major thoughts on, positive or negative, so "maybe"

  • i do want to buff the lockpicker's lockpicking speed eventually

  • extension ladder is worth $60, in my opinion. it's useful on offense, adamance, and titan, all of which I buffed. it's also good on dine (which was also buffed) if you use hybrid mode on tonightwedine

  • i did something else with dust pans

  • chemical jugs already spawn on vow and adamance, but maybe i will add them to march, idk

  • homemade flashbangs already spawn everywhere

  • i like the idea of gift boxes dropping shells, but functionally, i think it is not that helpful - nutcrackers already give you way more ammo than you need, and that detracts from overall scrap value (occasionally you will delete money by opening a present, or you will lose money from not opening presents that would've given more value)

  • spore lizards being 0.5 power wouldn't do much of anything because all other enemies are whole numbers - it would only allow 2 spore lizards (if they even both spawned) to fit inside 1 power level.

  • spiders are really easy to avoid, so I have no issues with their damage being so punishing

  • i have mixed feelings on nerfing dog health - on one hand, it would make it easier for baboons to kill them, and dogs are best avoided rather than killed. you can use lightning (6x2 damage) to kill them during stormy weather, and old birds exist on other maps, so i don't think it's that big of a deal

analog cypress
#

My suggestion is just a cool lore reference + mechanic that isn't overwhelming OP

night river
#

hey anyone know mods that work with sellbodies?

#

like ones with custom body models?

daring oar
# analog cypress (Easy changes) **Upgrade** - Remove Signal translator negative luck and make it ...
  • ghost girl landmines i also have mixed feelings on. i think this is fun, though, and worst case i can just disable it by default
  • 120% sell price maybe. you already get 120% value from items when you are selling for overtime, but i do see the value in this giving you more value per item, in exchange for scaling the quota sooner (or wasting your money routing to expensive moons)
  • i don't like weed killer interactions with enemies that much, sorry
  • i have a lot of ideas in mind for the loud horn and some of these will probably be included in that
raven patrol
#

Just the same OP rng event

daring oar
#

if you do this

analog cypress
#

Your suggestion is to randomize sell rate at the company all days except the last and make it going above 80% rare and 100% super rare

daring oar
#

and you have to spend it again to go back

analog cypress
#

No sane player would waste going to the company just because it's 101% on 2 days from deadline

#

120% on the other hand

daring oar
#

i do sort of like the idea of rewarding players that watch the company prices with rare highball days

#

and i think it encourages some interesting decisions

#

meeting quota means losing days to collect more scrap for a high score

#

not meeting quota still means you have days left where you either have to waste extra money routing to an expensive planet

#

or you'd have to settle for the free moons (which, tier 2s should be a lot more appealing now, but still not tier 3+ level)

#

that being said

#

i buffed pretty much everything so im a bit worried about players having too much money as is

analog cypress
#

Depends if the weather is good or not also

daring oar
#

i kinda debated putting in a global sell value scalar

#

because it's a lot easier to reach rend, titan, even artifice by quota 2 or 3

#

when adamance is so rewarding

#

i also made almost everything cheaper

#

well, everything i want to encourage using, anyway

#

economy is starting to be tipped a bit towards having too much money and that limits the amount of tough decisions you have to make

runic cobalt
daring oar
#

jerry rigged

image.png
analog cypress
# daring oar - inverse teleport cooldown i have no major thoughts on, positive or negative, s...
  • extension ladder for 60$ isn't all that worth tbf, it's a niche equipment where you can only use them in specific maps, it isn't like a shovel where you can use to fight back in every map or a belt bag that carries all items in every map, being cheaper would make it more useful and disposable. Also the hybrid variation on dine is a mod 😦
  • didn't know flashbangs spawned on every map, the wiki tricked me again
  • although getting scrap from the gift box seems better, getting shells is very useful, you're not losing too much money most of the time by getting a shell, sometimes is just what you need
  • idk what i was going to say to the spore lizard one, but i thought for a moment that a spore lizard infestation would be goofy
  • i totally forgot about baboons killing them based on health, forget about that
daring oar
#

wel it's true that dine hybrid is a mod but so is butterybalance /shrug

#

i personally use it and i encourage it, i like dine a lot more that way

#

but it's not a dependency and i do have a setting in this mod to fix the flood level instead

#

although getting scrap from the gift box seems better, getting shells is very useful,
well my thought process is that getting shells is only useful if you have a shotgun

#

and getting shotguns also gives you shells

#

and also makes it easier to get more shotguns and more shells

analog cypress
daring oar
#

i dont think we've ever had a situation where we've had a shotgun on the ship and absolutely no ammo

analog cypress
#

people will take riskier decisions if the prize is big

raven patrol
balmy pier
#

and more likely imo, people would be upset they got an item with no value

#

because they dont know how to kill a nutcracker

#

and dont want to risk doing so

#

and tbh, even knowing how, id probably be sad if i got nothing from the gift

raven patrol
#

Do think shotgun shells should be worth credits tbh, not sure why that was removed from the v50 betas

daring oar
analog cypress
raven patrol
#

Ammo shells are worth 0 credits

daring oar
#

even just affording a trip back to rend means selling $2750 of other stuff for the $550 bonus

raven patrol
#

I think you are convincing me

#

This seems better than I thought

daring oar
#

because you'd be stuck with free moons instead

#

anyways im not adamant about this 120% sell value thing

#

but i do think it would be a lot less upsetting to balance than it maybe appears immediately

daring oar
#

so you need to pick up the ammo to maximize the value from nutcrackers

analog cypress
#

now that i think about it

daring oar
#

but it does cause save desync issues

#

if your shotgun shells are worth value, then you save your game, disable shotgun shells being worth value, then reload your save

#

it completely screws up which items have which prices associated to them

#

so i'd need to figure out a solution to that

analog cypress
#

the gift boxes is a cassino where you always win

raven patrol
#

120% sell would be most impactful in q1 and q2, or q10+

naive mesa
#

I have shells spawn naturally on some moons

raven patrol
naive mesa
#

As an alternative to buying shells using some mod

analog cypress
daring oar
#

well even just toggling the setting on/off would cause the same problem

#

it's just a big risk for fucking up save files

naive mesa
#

Its more fun to find shells in a mansion as a way of getting more ammo than grinding nuts or buying shells

#

Especially if its rarer and on mansion moons. Gives more of a reason to visit those moons

analog cypress
# raven patrol 120% sell would be most impactful in q1 and q2, or q10+

120% is certainly an good feature because it's very situational, sometimes it just isn't worth because you have no scrap to sell, sometimes is good cuz you can get that money you wanted to go to the next moon fast, maybe you're on Titan with 3000 worth of money and the moon is eclipsed, you don't wanna take risks and prefers to sell just the necessary to almost hit quota and try another free moon

#

the huge boost on money is surely appealing at the start but going to fast on the quota will prove that it maybe wasn't a good decision or was

#

i would summarize to: Increases the amount of decisions you can make in orbit that impacts the gameplay

daring oar
#

if i figure out a good way to make shotgun shells worth money

#

that doesnt fuck up saves

#

then i will also add them to gift boxes

#

until then it is a "no" from me

daring oar
analog cypress
daring oar
#

so it's more like a "probably, eventually"

raven patrol
#

Very nice

#

Btw Buttery do you have any interest in my Boombox idea or should I stop asking

daring oar
#

what was your boombox idea

#

i forget

#

oh

#

scaring baboons

#

im not sure

#

i don't think it's much of a problem

#

either way

#

i have yet to study the baboons' AI so i dont know exactly how their AI responds to noises yet

#

but i do have plans to add a few more ways to scare them off

#

mainly the loud horn

raven patrol
#

I just like it as a way to buff Boombox

#

In vanilla it is not much better of than Loud Horn imo, basically useless

#

It has the Hygrodere interaction but who cares

analog cypress
#

the loud horn doesn't play sick tunes and make hygrodere friendly

#

i'm all in for these small interactions that make useless tools being useful under certain conditions

raven patrol
daring oar
#

well i wasnt implying it wasn't possible, but i dont know how to cohesively fit everything into a design without understanding how noise range, volume, etc. affects baboon's responses to audio

fallen musk
#

Nutcracker last stand seems very off putting

raven patrol
#

Well anyway I hope you get around to it, I am strangely adamant on this. ScaredBaboon does the job but it spams logs and apparently may use stolen code so being able to ditch it would be amazing

fallen musk
#

It doesn't make them that much harder to take down with shotgun, just 2 shells instead of 1

daring oar
#

the nutcracker fires back faster than you can fire the shotgun a second time

#

because of 1 HP berserk

fallen musk
#

Yeah but you can just be point blank, crouch, then shoot again

raven patrol
#

Crouch cheese is a separate issue imo

#

Needing 2 shells is still a big nerf too

daring oar
#

crouch cheese was patched

#

they point their shotgun down at you if you are crouching in front of them

fallen musk
#

Not fully

#

Crouch cheesing is still possible

#

It's just not as mindless

daring oar
#

well depending on how easy it is to do it might require more patching

fallen musk
#

You gotta be like right up next to them and not in front

daring oar
#

but otherwise it seems like it's still fine

#

it is still expending more resources to get a shotgun + it is not as safe as instantly killing the nutcracker

fallen musk
#

Nah don't, nutcrackers are fun in their current state even in vanilla

raven patrol
#

You can just turn this off

fallen musk
#

I know

raven patrol
#

Everyone so far has enjoyed this, you are actually the first to not like it

fallen musk
#

But I like things being fun and fast paced rather than having to strategize what to do

daring oar
#

well like

#

that is fine

fallen musk
#

I like lethal as a thinking on your feet kind of game

daring oar
#

that's why you can turn it off

#

lol

raven patrol
daring oar
#

i understand the thought process but is it really "thinking on your feet" knowing that you can oneshot nutcrackers with a shotgun

edgy maple
#

Do I need this? I mean. Do I REALLY need this for this to be installed.

8895A654-8DA7-4B83-AC8A-E30A07A63683.png
unreal ginkgo
#

no

edgy maple
#

alright awesome 👍

raven patrol
#

I guess Buttery should clarify in the mod description that the dependencies are just suggestions, that is like the third time it has been asked in a couple hours

silk lark
alpine pollen
#

@daring oar Could you add the option to disable infestations?

Also, could there be an option for infestations to only reduce the power level of the chosen entity to 0, and nothing more?

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

the infestation changes are a package deal and i dont want to break it into separate features

#

rng configurator lets you disable infestations

alpine pollen
naive mesa
#

On buttery’s behalf all future additions will be listed in the readme.

daring oar
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i plan on it but barbers combo really badly with other enemies

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so it will probably be barbers only

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my stuff wont conflict with claysurgeonoverhaul though

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if it enables a barber infestation

raven patrol
#

Using ClaySurgeonOverhaul and CurseOfEmbrion you can get Barber and Old Bird infestations respectively

hallow minnow
#

Hello, does this mod work with LGU's 'increase scrap value' and 'increase amount of scrap' upgrades?

daring oar
#

maybe?

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i assume that those just change the scrap value multiplier and scrap amount multiplier

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rather than changing individual moons

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in which case, yeah

hallow minnow
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Makes sense
Thanks for the explanation!

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Do the 'shrink interior' nerfs take into consideration the configs of modded interiors?

daring oar
#

march and rend would be globally shrunk regardless of interior

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artifice would grow in all interiors except mineshaft

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everything else would be limited to just mineshaft being selected

daring oar
#

i left the vow ditch alone during foggy weather because i figured it made sense being sort of like rend

image.png
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where you can see clearly once you get underneath the fog (or the "snowstorm" in rend's case)

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but in hindsight this is actually super cool (and a bit more accurate to vanilla foggy anyway)

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so in the next update it will be like this

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picturesque

image.png
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i fuckin hate foggy weather but this is so pretty it makes me actually want to play

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which was the end goal

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so i guess objective accomplished

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now im kinda thinking i might want to move this to chameleon instead

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but w/e

wind spoke
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it would be cool if there was an option for interior fog to always be the lowest value

daring oar
wind spoke
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that would be nice

daring oar
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min/max

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but i went the lazy route

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i just wanted to shove it in to the update and get it out

wind spoke
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yeah

daring oar
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i can add that soon

daring oar
#

dine's exterior does feel a tad too easy even with 8 power level

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i think im gonna boost it back to 10, but reduce the giant chance a bunch so 3 giants is an uncommon occurrence

marble spruce
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so glad i dont have to worry about that shit anymore

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its your problem now He He

daring oar
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lol

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well i like tweaking things so it's fine

marble spruce
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win win

daring oar
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anyways i want dine to be rend's offense

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basically

marble spruce
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still a fan of upping dines trap count

daring oar
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i think 16 indoor power is a bit too much and the indoor monster weights are kinda fucked up

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but i like dine having a really difficult exterior

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vanilla just sucks because you can get 2 giants at 9 or 11 AM and especially with vanilla sight mechanics that's just no fun

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i think having a high power level combined with a really low curve is good

marble spruce
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also the nodes are shit and they wander directly onto the main entrance door

daring oar
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lol yeah

marble spruce
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i have literally died to that 3 times

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like just exiting and getting insta eaten

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im not kidding

daring oar
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yes

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i've considered adding an activity warning

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to the interiors

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zeekerss disabled it purposefully

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which i guess i can understand

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but tbh i just don't think it's a good decision

marble spruce
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i just moved the nodes away from the door lol

raven patrol
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Insta-deaths to Dogs or Giants loitering at the door is so stupid, with Hygroderes you at least kinda know

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What even is the benefit, I do not see it

marble spruce
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that puzzles me too i dont really know

daring oar
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i think the idea was just that he anticipated camping being a problem much more frequently in interiors

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traps can spawn on top of entrances

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indoor enemies have really unpredictable behaviors (outdoor enemies at least generally wander in a small region)

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also many maps have entrances that are inaccessible to enemies completely

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assurance and offense are both safe from enemies

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except maybe baboons can climb the ladder but idk

marble spruce
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i love entering interiors where the slime is roleplaying as a welcome mat that instantly damages you

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unrelated

daring oar
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testaccount has a mod that fixes it

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ive been using it for forever but i have no idea if it actually works

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because it's only happened to us like 2 or 3 times

marble spruce
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i know i have it lol but when i played vanilla it was so funny

daring oar
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before we started

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anyways i was going to add some iframes to the slime

marble spruce
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it does what it says on the tin

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the slime just wanders when nobody is inside

raven patrol
daring oar
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well i was only using those two as an example

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it applies to almost every map to some degree

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enemies don't wander into either entrance on vow, only chase players into them

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experimentation's two entrances are safe from enemies

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adamance's fire exit is safe

raven patrol
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It would be Dine buff since it easily suffers the worst from this

daring oar
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rend's fire exit, artifice's fire exit, etc.

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dine does have it worst but only because of the main entrance placement tbh

raven patrol
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Fire is bad too

daring oar
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well my point is that you have only two entrances

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and both are right beside each other

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if enemies are camping one they are camping the other

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i still encourage using tonightwedine and moving the fire exits

raven patrol
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Of course

daring oar
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i was going to give dine two fire exits in different spots to try and encourage using more of the dead space on the map

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but then dopadream released rebalanced moons like

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months before i actually had started working on that

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and i think her dine layout is cool and pretty much does what i would've done anyway + more

marble spruce
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i would like to reiterate the entire mod is pretty much configurable atp

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so if you want you could get it and disable everything but dine

raven patrol
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Using dead space on the map is why I want bees on Offense, its exterior sprawling yet players only traverse like 40% of it

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Unlike Rend getting lost is not a thing

daring oar
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at least with how my friends play i don't really feel that

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there are a couple of ways to path to main entrance

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obstacles sometimes mean you have to drive the cruiser a different way to get it to main

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you cover different spots going from ship -> main vs. fire -> main

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offense is also one of the best moons i find for the kidnapper fox

marble spruce
daring oar
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it's usually not that hard to run it over with the cruiser but the weeds can grow so expansively that finding it wastes a bunch of time

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offense does kind of bottleneck you into going through the big field sooner or later

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regardless of which entrance you walk to and what side you wind up on, you have to go through it, and it's a good spot for the fox to grab people

raven patrol
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I see people use Cruiser by driving it up to the cliff you drop items of and stopping there, foot path is basically unaffected

daring oar
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i guess that works but i much prefer driving it around the hill and taking it up to main

raven patrol
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Fox is an interesting point, though it kinda ties into my point of using enemies to encourage different routes

daring oar
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driving is fun and you can stock extra equipment on it to refill

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since offense is basically the best place to spend stun grenades inside the building

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anyways

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this is completely unrelated to the offense discussion

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but while we were playing i found adamance to be way too good with the buff

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but i think it's because of mineshaft mainly

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v50 beta's scrap counts combined with the +6 from mineshaft is completely too much

raven patrol
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I did say it needed a loot nerf, not buff

daring oar
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it definitely does not need loot nerfs

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i buffed march and offense

raven patrol
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Ah, that works too

daring oar
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and i still stand by buffing adamance being a good thing, but i've disabled the buff when it generates a mineshaft

marble spruce
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did you add the fabled march bells

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buttery

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important

daring oar
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because that was leading it to compete with rend

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and that is a problem

daring oar
marble spruce
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for whom they toll

raven patrol
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I think if March and Offense are buffed Adamance should just be kept the same

unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
marble spruce
daring oar
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the thing about adamance is that it's far more dangerous than any other free moon (with the possible exception of offense)

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and outside of those 2 it's not even close

unreal ginkgo
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Do y'all just mean the bell scrap added to adamance

marble spruce
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march and offense

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not ada

unreal ginkgo
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How the fuck did I mess that up

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I knew it was March and Off

marble spruce
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oh

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then ye

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u right

raven patrol
daring oar
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but with vanilla numbers adamance just isnt rewarding you enough for that risk

marble spruce
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rebalanced moons spawned bells on march until i dropped scrap changes

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ecause buttery pointed out they dont spawn there but it would be neat

daring oar
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if you are full clearing all the moons anyway, then obviously adamance has the biggest bottom line and is the best moon to visit

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but in vanilla assurance and vow will provide similar payouts to a "decent adamance day" for way less effort

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anyways you can turn off the adamance scrap buff if you disagree but i feel like it would just get outclassed by march without the buff

raven patrol
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March is just an rng fest, it needs the best bottom line to be viable imo. Giant map and interior with unreliable fire exits and beehives

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And people say Titan is the gambling moon

daring oar
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v9 march was pretty much as good as adamance is now

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except the monster spawns are way less crazy

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and you spend a lot more time having to navigate the building

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also adamance's items are probably a bit better on average i guess

raven patrol
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March has a ton of 2 handeds which makes transfers annoying

daring oar
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anyways this does kind of all lend itself to a wider problem with how i've balanced everything

unreal ginkgo
# raven patrol March is just an rng fest, it needs the best bottom line to be viable imo. Giant...

I've noticed that fire exits tend to generate in a specific way, like a hierarchy almost
The first fire exit spawns closest to main, the second spawns around the middle of the interior, and the third fire exit spawns the farthest from main
In translation to March, the first is the southeastern fire exit, the second is the eastern fire exit, and the third is the northern fire exit
Knowing this has made my experience with vanilla March a little less of a pain

daring oar
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i think that, compared to each other, it is a lot more appealing to explore other options

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at least more appealing than vanilla

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visiting offense is annoying when you know you are throwing because assurance is better

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visiting dine is annoying for the same reason because of rend

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etc.

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i think the changes i have made make it a lot more appealing to visit those places that are normally just terrible

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but also, i got there by buffing everything a bunch, and so now it is kind of creating problems in the overall economy

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because i think it is possible to blaze through the game much faster

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it is fun to visit march now because you can actually get loot that's better than visiting assurance

marble spruce
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unrelated stupid tangent but i wish more moons had a unique scrap to them like how exp has dust pans

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like just 1 per moon would be cute

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
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but i do feel like some players are not going to look at the progression and will just start going to whatever moon pans out as the meta

unreal ginkgo
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Unrelated to vanilla moons but yeah

raven patrol
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I think your changes are good for the most part, if I put aside my vision for Adamance your idea is agreeable.

The one thing I really want is Offense bees, why Zeekerss put a hardcode that even blocks LLL and CC is a head scratcher. Even aside from my exploration argument it being the only free moon to not have them is weird, just give it the low chance the other desert moons have

daring oar
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it is an improvement because now the tier 2s have way better loot, so you need to go to the harder moons to optimize instead of playing it safe and getting by just as easily

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but it's still a problem if you can optimize by playing a full quota 1 on adamance and then immediately afford *artifice

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you could also afford a jetpack pretty easily, that early, and it's all downhill from there

marble spruce
daring oar
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why Zeekerss put a hardcode that even blocks LLL and CC is a head scratcher
i explained this the other day but he didn't do that

marble spruce
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i was gonna say

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he definitely didnt do that, lmao

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im pretty sure its a tag issue

raven patrol
#

Well then why can bees not spawn there

daring oar
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offense only has manticoils defined in its daytime pool

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but it also has an extremely low daytime spawn curve

marble spruce
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oh i assumed offense terrain just was tagged as something bees couldnt spawn on

daring oar
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the first spawn wave says "spawn -9 enemies at 7:40 AM"

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which is the only spawn wave bees are even allowed to spawn during

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their own probability curve puts them at 0 spawn weight by 9 AM

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

of 10

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which means that a random number between -10 and 9 gets added to whatever value the curve says

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and that's how many enemies actually spawn

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even in the best of circumstances, -9 + 9 is still 0, so no daytime enemies can spawn at the start of the day, which blocks bees from spawning ever

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and in the worst of circumstances you're talking -19

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fixing this requires changing offense's spawn curve which im not against but i didn't do it yet

raven patrol
#

I mean I guess this is not a hardcode but in practice it basically is because tools to edit spawn curves are not super readily available

daring oar
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i probably will in the future

unreal ginkgo
#

Offense does NOT need a daytime spawn curve that low 💔

daring oar
#

anyways getting back to the problem of economy

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im not really sure how i want to solve that problem

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i dont want to start nerfing moons

raven patrol
daring oar
#

i also dont want to start nerfing prices

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there was already a huge argument over jetpacks being $900 instead of $700

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in this server and most likely in zeekcord but i dont remember

raven patrol
#

I always thought the paid moons were a bit underpriced

daring oar
#

and the other solution to that problem is to just nerf the scrap value multiplier

marble spruce
daring oar
#

and i feel like that could be decent enough but it would also be sort of inconsistent

marble spruce
#

i dont see why it matters that much

unreal ginkgo
marble spruce
#

LMFAO

unreal ginkgo
#

Yummers

daring oar
# unreal ginkgo

i need to add the ability to kick it once it eats enough scrap

marble spruce
#

making this a gif

daring oar
#

one of these days i'll get to it

unreal ginkgo
#

OMFG PLEASE DO

marble spruce
unreal ginkgo
#

THAT WOULD BE SO FUNNY

marble spruce
#

embed famine

unreal ginkgo
#

Embed famine 😭😭

unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
#

I say just make paid moons more expensive, and if you want scale their enemies and loot too. Have Rend at 550 like now, Dine at 700 like Titan, and increase Titan to be 1000+ and Artifice to be 2000+

#

Have some progression

daring oar
#

i probably will do that

marble spruce
#

yea i increased dine to like 650 i think

daring oar
#

you did

marble spruce
#

because the price gap from rend felt too little for too good of

#

uh

unreal ginkgo
marble spruce
#

a benefit

unreal ginkgo
#

Titan $1000 at most

raven patrol
#

Well this is not vanilla, the free moons are getting buffed

daring oar
#

also dine and titan got huge buffs

unreal ginkgo
#

I did not hear about this

daring oar
#

anyways i think the solution i hate the least

#

is nerfing the moon prices