#ButteRyBalance

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

daring oar
#

i really like artifice and i just think it got done a bit dirty in v60

#

it's a small gripe (artifice is still great and basically just as fun as always) but a gripe nonetheless

#

if the goal was to make other moons more viable i think it's more fun to buff those other moons instead of nerfing things

#

and dine and titan have gotten a lot of small boosts

daring oar
#

main entrance is no longer underwater at 8 AM on flooded dine

daring oar
#

giant vision range vs foggy vision range

#

there's actually a bug(?) where you'll hear the "giant ambience" if you're standing in that yellow cone (it's a separate line-of-sight check from the one that actually raises your suspicion)

#

even if you are on a foggy moon, and the giant can't see you (since you aren't in the pink cone)

#

not sure if i should fix this

#

it does kinda give you conflicting information but it adds to this unsettling feeling of being watched by something in the fog you can't see

silk lark
#

oh so thats why that happens sometimes

#

i would like to see this fixed but i can get why some people would not

daring oar
#

it's kind of annoying

#

because there is not a super great way for me to fix this in butteryfixes

#

where it will affect foggy weather

daring oar
# daring oar lol

but also affect this mod shrinking their vision range on snowy maps

#

but i dont want to include it in this mod even if it's a "fix"

#

because that would be weird

daring oar
ripe tartan
#

I think FairGiants already fixes the sound outside of whatever vision range the giant actually has at the time?

#

and it also lets you adjust the range for foggy weather and snowy moons, plus stops the giants camping the ship if they chase you and now you're hiding in the ship

daring oar
#

i am familiar with fairgiants and we have used it since it released

#

but i have some problems with it that can't be bypassed

#

for example, you have to define a list of levels that are considered snowy, which means it's incompatible with artifice blizzard's random chance of snowy weather

#

i don't use the random wander patch and the vanilla anti-camp got fixed in v60

ripe tartan
daring oar
#

yeah

ripe tartan
#

i might false that function then

daring oar
#

anyways at this point we basically just use the mod for 2 things

  1. giants forgetting players that are outside their range of vision
  2. decreasing range in snow levels
#

and the second is already not really fulfilled, because of the artifice blizzard compatibility

#

so i'd rather just write my own patch where i can account for that

#

and since everything is configurable, if you like fairgiants and want to keep using it still, you can just disable my patches

ripe tartan
#

well sounds like what you want to add to butterybalance for giants will replace FairGiants, im good with that I already use butterybalance for other things now

unreal ginkgo
#

I get why you'd want the giant's vision divided in fog because you can't see a fucking thing, but on ice moons, you can see them coming

#

So it's been curious to me why people think giants on ice moons are as bad as foggy moons

daring oar
#

rend's visibility is basically just as bad as foggy moons are

#

and giants are just not very fun on titan in general

#

on dine i don't mind them having full vision range as much

#

but overall i think giants are the least fun outdoor enemy to deal with and i don't mind them being "maybe too easy" on one snow moon out of 3 (or 4 if you use artifice blizzard)

#

especially because 2 giants is the most common outdoor combo on dine

#

and if you disagree

#

then you can turn it off

#

because i have made absolutely everything configurable in this mod

unreal ginkgo
ripe tartan
#

im all for nerfing giants in low visibility

#

its bad enough in flooded where water doesnt slow enemies down at all, but it slows you down and drains all your stamina

daring oar
daring oar
unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

but it would be nice for that to be tweaked

#

at some point

#

i actually like flooded weather though

unreal ginkgo
#

There should be nodes on the water, and have entities swim in it rather than just

daring oar
#

and he's mentioned before he wants to add enemies that can only move under the surface of the water but he hasn't figured out a way to do that yet

#

and that sounds cool

unreal ginkgo
#

somehow being able to breathe and move underwater

vapid pier
#

adamance flood is genius

unreal ginkgo
#

I guess eyeless dogs and baboon hawks took notes from hippos

daring oar
#

this definitely won't be in 0.1.0

#

this update has already been delayed long enough

#

but i was thinking today

#

i might want to make radar boosters compatible with the teleporter

#

in the future

#

i think inversing them into the building to work as security cameras could be cool

ripe tartan
#

that would actually be sick

daring oar
#

and i'd be a lot more interested in buying them if i had the option to warp them out of the building

#

instead of needing to carry them all the way back home

#

19lbs of garbage

#

though the belt bag helps, i guess

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

i've finished all the moons except embrion and im just making a couple small tweaks to shop prices

#

but im thinking i might also overhaul the infestations

unreal ginkgo
#

(You can literally inverse to radar boosters with that mod)

daring oar
#

and then call that v0.1.0

daring oar
#

it's been so long i dont remember anymore though

#

if it does work in v69 that would certainly save me some effort

unreal ginkgo
#

It does work, yes

#

It's in muh modpack

daring oar
#

another day of no mod finished

#

but i have a cool idea for embrion now

#

im curious to try

fallen musk
#

Woah I just realized this is a thing

daring oar
#

afterwards i think i will speedrush infestations

#

and then i will call 0.1.0 fine

#

tomorrow though

#

bed time for me

silk lark
balmy pier
#

another suggestion @daring oar

#

if you aggro a hoarding bug from standing next to it, it should not instantly aggro the moment youre close enough again, regardless of how long its been since you last aggroed it this way

#

it is unbelieveably aggrivating how they constantly chain into attacking you, and if youre gone for like 4 minutes, the moment you step next to them again, it happens AGAIN

daring oar
#

this doesn't appear to be accidental

#

looking at the code flow

balmy pier
#

???? ok

#

im not saying this is a bug

#

im saying
make this not happen

#

cause its stupid

daring oar
#

i just don't see this being an issue

balmy pier
#

if a hoarding bug stays close to you because it wants an item youre holding, then it is an issue

daring oar
#

then give it the item

balmy pier
#

most of the time otherwise its not really

daring oar
#

lol

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

then dont get close to it

#

or kill the hoarding bug

unreal ginkgo
#

Problem is when you’re either heavy, or they’re constantly passing by you due to their nest being close

daring oar
#

if you're too heavy to run, you drop your items and run

#

and if they're patrolling an area you want to explore, you explore somewhere else or you kill them

#

how is this any different from spiders or thumpers

#

lol

#

hoarding bugs are at least outwardly neutral but they are still monsters and you still are supposed to be leaving them alone

unreal ginkgo
#

That’s not a good, and quite frankly annoying solution. They shouldn’t immediately aggro on you when you pass by them for like a second in their roaming state just because their tolerance level didn’t replenish

#

It’s a similar issue to the maneater, I feel

daring oar
#

"shouldn't" is subjective and IMO i just disagree

#

seems pretty normal for a territorial animal to get offended by something constantly in its personal space

#

and for it to have a short fuse when it's already attacked people for it before

unreal ginkgo
#

That doesn’t make it fun though

#

But I suppose

daring oar
#

you already have all the ways of dealing with it at your disposal and if you don't want to deal with it, that is what it is

#

but i don't feel like this is a mechanic that needs fixing

#

forest giants never forgetting about players is at least very likely to be unintended behavior

#

and also makes outdoor gameplay pretty much impossible on any open map

#

but hoarding bugs attacking you because you got this close to them is pretty much on you

image.png
unreal ginkgo
#

In the Manor, yeah

#

But in the tight corridors of the Factory and Mineshaft, no

daring oar
#

if a thumper were in this area you wouldn't be getting close to it without a weapon

unreal ginkgo
#

It’s easy to pull off

daring oar
#

and if you're moving around a hoarding bug without a weapon you are signing yourself up for the risk of them attacking you

#

if you get attacked then that is the consequence of the decision you made

#

there are other decisions available that are safer but require more effort or time

unreal ginkgo
#

I don’t want to sacrifice an item just because the hoarding bug aggravated on me just for… playing the game
They’re already annoying as is with infestations and constantly holding your loot hostage, and if you don’t have a shovel, you might as well forget it

daring oar
#

you dont need to give them an item to make them leave you alone

#

in most cases

#

you can just run

#

if you steal from them, then they will aggro on everybody until the item is returned

unreal ginkgo
#

Again, when you’re heavy, juking them nine times out of ten will make them aggravate again due to them most of the time pathing by to while they’re getting to where they need to be

daring oar
#

and there's an extremely small (like 3% IIRC) chance they will ignore the conditional that usually prevents them from trying to grab items that players are holding

#

but dropping that single item will make them leave you alone

unreal ginkgo
#

The longer you’re away from them, their tolerance level should slowly replenish since you’re not, “constantly harassing them”

daring oar
#

then you would also have to drop your scrap if a spider or thumper started chasing you

#

or anything, for that matter

#

a nutcracker

#

most often a masked

#

unless they decide not to sprint

unreal ginkgo
#

…Yeah, but hoarding bugs will take that scrap

analog cypress
#

What's wrong with hoarding bug 😔

unreal ginkgo
#

lol

daring oar
unreal ginkgo
#

Bruh

daring oar
#

thumpers don't steal scrap but are you going to go back and grab your stuff while it's patrolling the area

#

are you going to grab your stuff if a spider parks on the wall next to it

#

the answer is "maybe yes but it's risky" and that's the exact same deal for stealing from hoarding bugs

#

they are one of the easiest enemies to kill (except for snare fleas and like, masked, i guess) and pretty much all enemies in this game have counterplay that is "go somewhere else where it's safer, kill them, or risk dying"

analog cypress
#

I don't understand what exactly is the rebalance suggestion

daring oar
#

hoarding bugs aggro on players after they have spent too long in proximity

#

the suggestion is to make their proximity aggro timer reset

#

because in vanilla that value never decreases

#

and eventually causes them to immediately aggro any time a player gets close

analog cypress
#

Proximity from their nest or close to them?

daring oar
#

proximity to the hoarding bug itself

analog cypress
#

Maybe you could just make a mechanic that giving them a item makes the proximity aggro timer resets

#

Never had much problem with that

daring oar
unreal ginkgo
#

It's better than their timer not resetting at all

analog cypress
#

Well, the hoarding bugs were created to harass the employee fighting for scrap

unreal ginkgo
#

I believe both of y'all are missing the point really

analog cypress
#

They aren't dangerous like other entities, but intended to be annoying

daring oar
analog cypress
daring oar
#

also, still just my opinion, but i dont think hoarding bugs are going to "forgive" people just because they got an item they can drag back to their nest

#

they want as much scrap as they can possibly find and they want people to stay away from it

#

there isn't a transactional relationship with you giving them an item

#

either you stole that item from them and they are attacking you until you give it back, or they are too busy carrying it back to attack you once you drop it, but that's not goodwill

#

anyways

#

i nerfed the maneater because it's oppressive and annoying

#

i nerfed the coilheads because they are annoying

#

i nerfed the forest giants because they are oppressive and annoying

runic cobalt
#

im seeing a trend

daring oar
#

i have never come to the conclusion while playing the game that hoarding bugs were overpowered, oppressive, or annoying

#

so i have no interest in nerfing them

#

if you disagree with me that's fine

#

maybe someone else can make FairHoarders

runic cobalt
#

hoarding bug attacks are probably some of the easiest to dodge since their whole thing is overshooting the destination

daring oar
#

maybe you could dip your toes into modding and make it your very first project

#

that'd be cool

#

but anyways

#

that's my piece

analog cypress
#

nerf lasso man pls 🙏

#

forgot to suggest this

#

ITP cooldown at 30s instead of 210s

daring oar
#

perhaps

naive mesa
#

They naturally roam around until there’s an item in their FOV, which they’ll pick it up and return to their nest.

balmy pier
#

if youre holding an item, theres a 4% chance i believe is what it is, for them to "want" the item youre holding

#

when they are like this, they purposefully keep themselves close to you

#

which in turn will cause them to aggro, unless you drop the item, swap to holding nothing, or create enough distance for them to forget where you are

naive mesa
#

Didn’t realise that was a thing

#

That makes sense now

#

My first experience for the game I went inside with a flashlight, a hoarding bug wouldn’t leave me alone, and then it aggroed and killed me.

#

It also has the 11% chance to have no power in the building

daring oar
#

it's rand(100) < 4 so i said 3%

#

but i forgot that's 0-99

#

so 4% is correct

dry current
#

you should make fat maneaters be 0.01% slower when they mature I think

naive mesa
#

you should make fat maneaters become complete spheres and roll towards the player when they mature I think

dry current
#

You should give the maneater item the same gimmick as the soccer ball item so we can kick them

daring oar
#

i'll add it but im gonna wait until zeekerss adds The Postal Pummeler

#

for thematic resonance

dry current
#

what if I add the postal pummeler first

daring oar
#

i didn't realize maneaters were only 2 power level

#

i think i will add a setting to increase them to 3

#

adult maneaters basically feel like a mix of thumper and bracken behavior

#

and this will ideally reduce the stress you can potentially encounter while trying to slow down its (inevitable) transformation

signal stream
#

seems like a massive non-issue like that's how that enemy works 😭

unreal ginkgo
raven patrol
#

Tomorrow they will ask for Ghost Girl aggression decay because it is unfair that she sometimes spawns in awkward spots where we do not see her until it is too late, and is an unacceptable forced encounter

fallen musk
#

Ghost girl isn't as bad as people think she is

#

Though with how she works, she has really bad pairs with other entities, mainly bracken.

vapid pier
#

me when im watching a coilhead and notice the bracken behind me

#

then walking around the corner and see a ghost girl

fallen musk
#

Least fucked up solo Titan experience

daring oar
#

i would actually like to buff the ghost girl

#

she is a total joke if you know how she works

#

way too exploitable

#

issue is, i don't know how i want to do that yet

#

or how to make it feel good

#

something that makes her less cheesable without compromising her charm of "the stalker you cant see"

#

and without making her uncounterable

#

it's something i won't be tackling before this next update, anyway

unreal ginkgo
#

I love how people below 50 hrs describe the ghost girl as the worst of the worst when her danger is comparable to a fucking manticoil 💔

daring oar
#

one thing i will probably restore

#

she has behavior to turn off the breaker box

#

if she's been witnessed enough times

#

when entering chase

unreal ginkgo
#

Broken, or unused?

daring oar
#

maybe both?

#

there is a client RPC to turn off the breaker box

#

but her server RPC (what would actually call that client RPC) calls the client RPC to flicker the lights instead

daring oar
analog cypress
#

but easily cheesable

daring oar
#

or maybe he just wanted the girl to have no effect on anybody except the player she's targeting

#

in any case i think having an enemy that could actually shut off the power is cool

#

and it makes the breaker box less of a meaningless "find it and fix it once" type deal if it's off at the start of the day

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

but an active problem if the girl is haunting someone

signal stream
marble spruce
analog cypress
marble spruce
#

that conversation should have ended when you first said no

analog cypress
#

most of the times we're blackouts

marble spruce
#

🙄

daring oar
#

well

#

i love to talk

#

and i will adamantly (v50) die on any hill i've set up battlements on

vapid pier
#

no way is that an adamance reference

analog cypress
#

talking in this chat is productive, cuz we can discuss good and bad ideas of rebalances

#

i'm all in for discussing

unreal ginkgo
#

Yea

unreal ginkgo
#

Somehow

daring oar
#

but anyways yes the hoarding bug thing is silly and im probably not going to walk back on it

#

sorry

analog cypress
#

make ghost girl be able to climb the fridge and main entrance door Trollface

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

it'd be a super easy first project if you haven't tackled LC mods before

marble spruce
#

if the developer does not want to add something i don't think its productive to continue to pressure them about it fwiw

daring oar
#

... Yeah

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

im a bit more open to discussing in this thread more than anywhere else

#

at least

#

but i'm still probably going to be just as stubborn as anywhere else 😓

vapid pier
#

me wanting to get into modding and deciding to do probably one of the more annoying things as the first thing 🔥

analog cypress
#

how much changes the next update has?

daring oar
#

we are currently looking at 76 config settings

#

and that is before implementing embrion changes

vapid pier
#

jesus

analog cypress
#

oh shit

daring oar
#

embrion will have 3(?) settings

#

and before implementing the infestation changes

analog cypress
#

that's gonna be fun

daring oar
#

which will probably have 4

#

i've tried my best to make them intuitive and organize them so they are easy to find

#

but

#

good luck

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
signal stream
#

Awful

daring oar
#

but in a way, it kind of acts like a little development log, because im adding stuff to this list in the order i implement it

signal stream
#

Craving a data structure/pattern

analog cypress
#

step 1: Download ButteryBalance
step 2: Disable all changes
step 3: Play Trollface

daring oar
#

so that's a boon

#

i do want to clean this up once im not in feature crunch mode anymore though

#

it's not exactly flattering to look at

signal stream
#

I was curious about making a base class that would have a built in bool configentry and a way so it would patch or unpatch anything in that class based on that value. Then maybe some <key,pair> original override related generic thing you could use in tandem

daring oar
#

that's sort of the ideal i have in mind too

#

but i'd probably want to go for realtime config support if i went through the effort of implementing that

#

so i'm at least putting it off until i feel ready to tackle that

signal stream
#

Ye

#

I spent like 5min messing with something but was running into some issue where type restricting a generic to notnull wasn’t actually doing it in the way I needed to

runic cobalt
signal stream
#

Yuup

#

It very much feels like we are drastically pushing through limits of it’s designed usecases

daring oar
#

and i dont mind these big config lists

#

isolated in its own class

#

then splitting the Bind calls into categorized functions

#

it's usually a happy enough solution for me

#

but this is the first time ive been working at this scale

#

and that combined with networking

#

makes for an absolute nightmare

#

i need to look into the limitations of NetworkVariables

runic cobalt
#

oh i never bothered network sync'ing the configs, a lot of it is on the host's end most of the time

#

it's work im not prepared to do

daring oar
#

i wonder if i am able to put them into a dictionary

#

batby mentioned "network lists" so if that works how i think it does

#

and i can think of an effective indexing system for it

#

that might help the syncing code look less ugly at least

#

right now each networkvariable needs 1 line added to my networker init to sync its value

daring oar
#

but i'd estimate prolly 20 have to be networked

signal stream
#

You can make ur own dictionary

shut torrent
#

(This is a joke)

raven patrol
#

Just tell him to stop being so paranoid

#

Being mentally insane is just skill issue

analog cypress
#

Could we have a config that when you type "buttery" on the chat the floor becomes buttery 🧈

raven patrol
shut torrent
#

Or telling the sky to not be blue

#

Lmfao

analog cypress
#

I've seen her flick the ships light too, might be intentional the flicker

raven patrol
# daring oar she is a total joke if you know how she works

Not complaining, but it is funny when you are in a large exterior like Rend and you get the Ghost Girl audio distortion with her being nowhere in sight, and then you look at the ship camera and there is a tiny pink dot a hundred feet away. This is the only time she somewhat is scary, because I fear she would sneak up on me with her hundred meter sprint

daring oar
#

but id need to look at the code again

#

i kinda forget

shut torrent
#

The ghost girl is almost always aggroed on me every single time I play so I've gotten so used to her that she's a complete non-issue

daring oar
#

otherwise she just flickers the lights like she currently does

raven patrol
#

This is a very cool mechanic, it definitely would throw people off

shut torrent
#

I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing lol

raven patrol
#

By the way, is there a thing where teammates can unintentionally walk into the Girl’s position, with increments her aggro counter without her needing to be seen by the haunted player?

analog cypress
#

i remembered now, i suggested the ghost girl being able to explode landmines during chases

#

idk how you feel about it though

daring oar
#

or bumps into her

#

i think the girl ignores interactions with all other players

raven patrol
#

It just explains why sometimes she is aggroed after only being seen once or is immediately aggroed

daring oar
#

she can enter chase if you back into her and that can get you killed, but outside of that, she is a total non issue if there arent coils or brackens on the map

raven patrol
#

Ye, especially with the Mansion rail cheese

shut torrent
#

Btw I just want to show here

#

Probably one of the worst ghost girl encounters I've ever had

raven patrol
#

Experimentation’s exterior is weird, it is honestly hard to traverse due to enemies clustering on the lower section and there being a lack of cover. If the moon where harder I could see the pipe route being the only viable one in later hours (as seen in Arduous Hardships)

#

Then there is the exclusive garage door mechanic, it is weird how Experimentation’s exterior is laid out given it is the starter moon

analog cypress
#

Experimentation has so much stuff and cool details, it's because it was the first moon Zeekerss designed

#

later moons lack as much as Experimentation has

daring oar
#

if you play v4

#

it has a 100% chance to close when you pass through it

#

and that made its significance click with me

#

it apparently used to close as each player would walk into the building

#

then you were trapped inside, powered up the elevator, and went to the next floor and that was the core loop

#

he basically just repurposed it as a rare event when he redesigned the core loop

fallen musk
#

It's possible for the garage to (almost) fully close in modern version

shut torrent
#

A bit of a wild suggestion, but do you think that customizable damage sliders for each entity would be a good idea?

#

@daring oar

#

Just thought of it off the top of my head and figured I'd mention it

#

It might be a okay idea

daring oar
daring oar
#

in the original version it was 100%

#

so the fact it moved exactly 4 times made a lot more sense

dry current
#

she never fucking shows up

fallen musk
#

She shows up for me all the time on Titan

dry current
#

I... I ain't gonna lie I barely go to Titan

fallen musk
#

I solo run hard moons and yeah she's a real pain in the neck on Titan

dry current
#

it's usually like, q1 is any free moon, q2 is any free moon or rend and then q3, q4, q5, etc are just variations of rend artifice and maybe titan

#

that is if I'm playing w my vanilla crew (just cuz we aim to break our quota records n stuff)

fallen musk
#

I remember my earlier lethal days where I would do solo Titan but with a mini-map.

dry current
fallen musk
#

I had a map because I had anxiety over coil-heads back then

dry current
#

oh man I did too

#

I got consistently rated Most paranoid back then

#

just cuz I kept looking behind me and around me constantly

fallen musk
#

It's weird because back then Bracken didn't scare me

#

but like I'm paranoid as hell of Bracken due to Rend solo

wind spoke
#

its a looming threat but it doesn't take all of your attention away like a coilhead

fallen musk
#

You'd think, but just when you think you're safe is when Bracken comes up on you out of nowhere.

dry current
#

only enemy that still consistently scares me is the maneater

fallen musk
#

Not knowing if there is one or not is the worst, especially on Rend where the spawn chance for one is like a coin-flip

dry current
#

it's so fucking jittery eugh....

#

brackens only scare me if I have LR on

#

and ever since I noticed coil heads have a fat ass I haven't feared them since

#

I just point and laugh

wind spoke
#

thats horrible

#

jesters scare me as well because I don't know if somewhere deep in the mansion someone found one and its coming to kill me

fallen musk
#

I had something like that once

#

I was on Rend solo and I exited main, but I didn't realize that a Jester spotted me right before I left

#

And so I went to fire exit and uh... yeah

daring oar
# 
Dictionary<string, float> adjustedWeights = new()
{
    { "Brush",           1.07f },   // vanilla: 1.1
    { "Candy",              1f },   // vanilla: 1.1
    { "ChemicalJug",      1.4f },   // vanilla: 1.3
    { "Clock",            1.2f },   // vanilla: 1.25
    { "Cog1",             1.2f },   // vanilla: 1.15
    { "FancyCup",         1.2f },   // vanilla: 1.15
    { "FancyLamp",       1.25f },   // vanilla: 1.2
    { "Flask",            1.1f },   // vanilla: 1.18
    { "GarbageLid",       1.1f },   // vanilla: 1
    { "EnginePart1",     1.18f },   // vanilla: 1.15
    { "Hairdryer",        1.1f },   // vanilla: 1.07
    { "SoccerBall",      1.13f },   // vanilla: 1.13
    { "TeaKettle",       1.15f },   // vanilla: 1.2
    { "YieldSign",        1.3f },   // vanilla: 1.4
};
#

all of your numbers are generally pretty agreeable

#

i left old phones at 5lbs because they are still metallic

#

shotgun shells being dropped by gift boxes is an interesting idea but i think in most cases i'd rather have an item worth money

#

i also agree dust pans would be cool, showing up on other moons

#

they'd be cool and thematic on dine

#

but as an item they are also pretty terrible

#

$12-31 value

analog cypress
fallen musk
#

Can I express my hatred of garbage lids specifically

analog cypress
#

happy day

analog cypress
daring oar
unreal ginkgo
analog cypress
fallen musk
#

They feel like one of those items that you pick up and you're just like holding your nose over how much it reeks.

daring oar
#

also oops i typo'd

#

soccer balls are 1.18 in vanilla

unreal ginkgo
fallen musk
#

Dude the garbage lids really are like the l4d2 pitchforks of lc scrap

daring oar
#

lol wtf do people hate the pitchfork in l4d2

analog cypress
unreal ginkgo
#

I mistake garbage lids for landmines constantly Fish

daring oar
#

i will say i don't use it that much (i don't really use melee in general) but the shovel was cool

analog cypress
#

terrible mistake 😔

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

oh wow what the fuck

unreal ginkgo
#

It doesn’t even do good damage anyway

fallen musk
#

also really slow melee

unreal ginkgo
#

Ya

daring oar
#

that's like

#

the whole point of melee

#

that's fucked up

#

if you want to kill one guy at a time you use a magnum

unreal ginkgo
#

Always a good day when you get a fireaxe

daring oar
#

i am a fire axe lover

#

probably the melee weapon i use if im gonna actually use one

unreal ginkgo
#

I don’t bother with firearms most of the time and usually only use them as a last resort (e.g. smokers and tanks)

daring oar
#

katanas are also good but the sound they make is very strange

fallen musk
#

I don't really like the CS:S weapons being enabled for everyone

unreal ginkgo
#

The what

daring oar
#

counter strike guns

unreal ginkgo
#

Ya, but like

fallen musk
#

MP5, SG552, Scout, and AWP

scarlet breach
daring oar
#

german exclusive, made globally available after the last stand update

unreal ginkgo
#

Whus the issue

daring oar
#

the mp5 is "fine"

#

i'd rather use one of the other two choices

fallen musk
#

They're very out of place model wise and are just worse or redundant versions of other weapons

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

and the sg552 is pretty cool, if not particularly great

#

i like its gimmick

#

the bolt action snipers though

#

holy shit

#

i can't believe they exist to be real

scarlet breach
unreal ginkgo
#

Beyblade Beyblade

fallen musk
analog cypress
#

for some reason i prefer the baseball bat over other melee weapons on l4d2

daring oar
#

maybe i'll replace embrion's metal sheets with dust pans

unreal ginkgo
#

Garbage lid is so ass that it made us forget the game this thread is even for 💔

daring oar
#

it's a 0lb item worth about as much money

#

and the metal sheet only shows up on free moons + embrion

#

so to me it seems like an easy substitution

unreal ginkgo
#

It’s weird that dust pans are Experimentation exclusive

fallen musk
#

Garbage lids just don't feel that satisfying of an item to find

unreal ginkgo
#

They’d work nicely on mid tier moons

daring oar
unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

metal sheets and whoopee cushions are the two items that make me want to jump into a pit so they never see the light of day

fallen musk
#

It's like a 2-handed metal sheet

daring oar
#

everything else is cool

unreal ginkgo
#

A 2-handed somehow worse than large axles

unreal ginkgo
fallen musk
#

Ok it's like slightly better

daring oar
balmy pier
daring oar
#

even at 11lbs (after my change, 0lbs in vanilla is even better) it's still the lightest weight 2 handed isnt it

balmy pier
#

when did i say i hate garbage lids?

daring oar
#

and $20-43 is like. alright

balmy pier
#

the only thing i dislike about them is two-handed juggling them

#

which, i dont even have to do

#

and most of the time i wont unless theres a second one or a control pad also

fallen musk
#

I think the thing that would fix garbage lids for me would them being 1-handed

daring oar
#

i'd be fine with that

fallen musk
#

but with actual weight

daring oar
#

i dont want to change handedness of scrap though

#

so i won't be tackling that

balmy pier
#

add a three-handed item

fallen musk
#

I might consider that on my own end for personal changes

balmy pier
#

(idk what that means)

daring oar
#

changing weight is fairly subtle and easy to "feel" even if you aren't the one controlling your session's config

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

but i don't like the idea of having scrap that changes handedness depending on your host's settings

balmy pier
daring oar
unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

oh yeah

#

i also wanted to reduce the weight of the wedding ring

#

16lbs is obscene

unreal ginkgo
#

The rings are for nutcrackers yoiled

balmy pier
#

erm actually its 15.5 lbs

analog cypress
#

11lbs?

daring oar
#

i was gonna do 8

unreal ginkgo
analog cypress
#

8 is a bit too much

unreal ginkgo
#

Please I need someone to decompose

analog cypress
#

the ring is conductive

daring oar
#

if you're gonna correct me at least do it right

balmy pier
#

damn.....

unreal ginkgo
#

LOL

analog cypress
#

and probably made of heavy metal or some shit

daring oar
#

rings are meant to be worn on your finger

#

there is no way it is not ergonomic

balmy pier
#

i dont think items have to strictly follow weight logic

unreal ginkgo
analog cypress
#

i ain't seeing a kid with a toy that weights 21lbs

unreal ginkgo
#

Look how big they are and how cylindrical nutcracker hands are

daring oar
balmy pier
#

lethal company

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

i made candy weightless!!

unreal ginkgo
#

The same weight as a body

daring oar
#

as it should have always been

unreal ginkgo
#

So did I

daring oar
#

candy is so heavy for no reason

unreal ginkgo
#

lol

daring oar
#

why

unreal ginkgo
#

We think alike

unreal ginkgo
balmy pier
#

oh yeah can we also talk about how player bodies are 11 lbs

#

implying the player is 11 lbs

daring oar
#

fine i'll make it 105

balmy pier
#

which means they should be dead

daring oar
#

idk why you wanted that

#

though

balmy pier
#

yes

#

thank you

unreal ginkgo
balmy pier
#

we have to follow the logic

#

sorry

daring oar
#

anyways i dont care about logic

#

i just care about feel

#

and, if you ask me, 16lbs wedding rings feel terrible

analog cypress
#

i love this thin worthless sheet of metal that weights 26lb, more heavy than a fucking large axle bigger than my body 🧠

daring oar
fallen musk
#

A lot of item weights don't make sense, but I'd rather items feel nice to carry around then troublesome.

#

Player bodies are already not that worth recovering 80% of the time anyway

balmy pier
#

well i think generally having high weight for more valuable items is fair

daring oar
#

perfume bottles are weightless and high dollar

balmy pier
#

perfume bottle and hairdryer are the two exceptions and are just the smile on face causers

#

thats how i view it

analog cypress
unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

metal sheets are heavy as hell and worthless

analog cypress
#

shotgun sheels are very useful

daring oar
#

it is not a hard and fast rule

#

i think the balance of what appears on each moon matters way more than the scrap itself

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

buffing rings buffs every map that spawns rings

#

so it buffs all the endgame maps equally

balmy pier
#

finally the experimentation wedding ring SID buffs

daring oar
#

and then experimentation gets a nice little bonus

#

we love experimentation

#

it always wants to go to school with its older brother assurance

analog cypress
unreal ginkgo
daring oar
balmy pier
#

i dont know how i keep getting rarer SIDs specifically

daring oar
#

but experimentation is a couple years behind and is stuck in 4th grade and all of his friends already graduated and went to middle school

#

so now he's alone and doesn't get to hang out with anybody anymore

#

fuck that!

unreal ginkgo
#

My life story

balmy pier
#

whats the status of embrion

analog cypress
#

experimentation trope

fallen musk
#

Shin Experimentation Tapes Sad Origin

unreal ginkgo
analog cypress
#

time to hit the quota

daring oar
vapid pier
#

baby

daring oar
#

but then i got another idea

balmy pier
#

no i mean for this joke

daring oar
#

oh

#

embrion is homeschooled

analog cypress
#

embrion has every scrap

#

lets go gambling

daring oar
balmy pier
#

embrion should have a chance to spawn the ricardorb from wither

analog cypress
vapid pier
#

the huh

unreal ginkgo
balmy pier
# vapid pier the huh

a modded moon named wither has a hidden item
apparently theres also a config to enable spawn weight for it but you can probably override it with centralconfig like normal
and that item is the "ricardorb"

#

its that black and white agony face as a sphere

#

idk why they added it or why its named that

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

the pe face

unreal ginkgo
#

Winter reference?!

balmy pier
#

im not sure if thats what its named

daring oar
unreal ginkgo
#

LOL

balmy pier
#

ah

analog cypress
#

hollow

balmy pier
#

i didnt know its origin

daring oar
#

i love the pe face

balmy pier
#

yes that face

unreal ginkgo
#

That’s Winter’s pfp

#

Well

#

At least was

analog cypress
balmy pier
unreal ginkgo
#

Bruh

balmy pier
#

sorry!!

analog cypress
#

now i got the urge to hate the extension ladder and lockpicker for no reason

#

what was Zeekerss idea

#

doing a store item

#

that costs 20

#

to open a fucking door

#

when every map you get 3 keys to the ship

#

to never use them

#

and the extension ladder

#

is 60 bucks

#

just to use them to get a better scrap position on Titan

#

or if you miss that jump on Offense pipe

fallen musk
#

Y'know what, there should be Shin Experimentation, Experimentation after it's gone through it's arc and it turns into one of the most brutal yet profitable moons possible.

vapid pier
daring oar
analog cypress
#

you just

daring oar
#

it's good on adamance

analog cypress
#

get rid of that

daring oar
#

and i use tonightwedine's hybrid setting which makes them good on dine too

#

i will say

#

bizarrely

#

extension ladders are the only item with a max discount lower than 80%

#

zeekerss set them at 60% for reasons i could not possibly discern

analog cypress
#

on specific conditions

#

I wish there were more usefull situations for the extension ladder

balmy pier
analog cypress
#

it really should be cheaper and weight more

#

like

#

how a compact large ladder inside a box

#

weights 0lb

vapid pier
analog cypress
#

and a candy

#

weights 11lb

daring oar
#

extension ladder weight is silly but im not going to change it

balmy pier
unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

well i mean

#

it literally compresses into a box

balmy pier
#

my joke is in reference to zeekerss officially stating he designed artifice for the extension ladder to be used

vapid pier
#

wait he did

balmy pier
#

he said this on a patreon post, it is public

unreal ginkgo
#

Wait yeah I could actually be right on that

unreal ginkgo
balmy pier
#

and no one knows what the fuck he means

unreal ginkgo
#

Where the fuck would you use it

daring oar
#

you can't get him away from the extension ladders when it's flooded

#

i've tried

balmy pier
#

for a moment i thought it could help for flooded

unreal ginkgo
#

??

balmy pier
#

yes

unreal ginkgo
#

Purple

#

What

balmy pier
#

but not really

unreal ginkgo
#

I’ve never seen this behavior from him

#

Wtf are you doing with ladders during floods

balmy pier
#

the thought was using it at the way back to ship where it fills with water sooner than anywhere else on the map and you cant avoid the water slowness

analog cypress
balmy pier
#

i thought using the ladder to stand above it would be possible

daring oar
#

yeah but you just got done saying it doesn't need nerfs

#

and i agree

#

i think the lockpicker is also fine

unreal ginkgo
#

Lockpicker just needs to not be 30 seconds

balmy pier
#

but apparently it doesnt work
but even if it did
the platform it would work is super small
and old birds can still fuck you over trying to do that

daring oar
#

keys only spawn in the first ~33% of mineshafts (closest to main entrance)

balmy pier
#

especially if its not pre-placed (which it wont be)

analog cypress
unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

so if fire exit isnt in that range, not having keys would fuck you over

analog cypress
#

and then i'll consider bringing it

unreal ginkgo
#

What’s the point of keys then

daring oar
#

especially on rend

analog cypress
balmy pier
#

lockpicker is not actually 30 seconds btw

vapid pier
#

fast lockpickers

daring oar
#

there's nothing better than carrying 3 keys to rend's fire exit

balmy pier
#

its 31 seconds

daring oar
#

then you unlock 3 doors

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

and there's another locked door in your way

analog cypress
#

it's funny because

daring oar
#

and you have to do the walk of shame to main or ship

analog cypress
#

most of the time

unreal ginkgo
analog cypress
#

i buy 2 belt bags

#

one for tools

#

and other for keys

#

the one with keys is always full 😭

analog cypress
unreal ginkgo
#

Mineshaft is worse in that aspect

#

It’s like the Sewer where the complex is usually locked down

analog cypress
#

the lockpicker would be a goat item if manors had safe lock boxes

#

10/10 idea zeekerss

daring oar
#

manors could use a lot

unreal ginkgo
#

Manor idea: Forced to play in a Temple Run minigame when u take app Trollface

daring oar
#

i think the manor is mostly cool just because of hte novelty

#

you spend most of the game looting industrial settings and then wind up in Someone's House

vapid pier
#

pokemon

daring oar
#

but its tile variety is really less than desirable

#

hopefully we get some more indoor tiles sometime

#

i was hoping we'd get a really fancy bathroom tile

vapid pier
#

bedroom

daring oar
#

with the addition of toilet paper as an item

unreal ginkgo
#

My thought is probably stupid but it should be noted that the interior is Manor, not Mansion, meaning that these things have historical significance

daring oar
#

instead, toilet paper is a tabletop that spawns in the kitchen

#

because these rich people have never heard of paper towels

#

i guess

unreal ginkgo
#

Idk

daring oar
balmy pier
daring oar
#

yes

#

which is funny

#

because it meant in v60

#

you couldn't find the most iconic new scrap in the most iconic feature of v60

#

the new interior

balmy pier
#

but i see it spawn in catwalks away from tabletop areas all the time

#

wtf

daring oar
#

tabletop spawners still have a radius defined

unreal ginkgo
vapid pier
#

going ham when a theater room, a gym room, a wine cellar or bar, a conservatory, and a ballroom get added

unreal ginkgo
#

In the Factory no less

daring oar
daring oar
#

but all of these would be cool

#

i especially like ballrooms and wine cellars

#

conceptually

balmy pier
#

i mean i know but it feels too frequent to just be coincidence that they spawned from a bleeding radius

analog cypress
vapid pier
balmy pier
#

maybe i really just never realized

daring oar
#

i was thinking observatory

analog cypress
daring oar
#

very different

vapid pier
#

naurrr

analog cypress
#

we could have some sort of garden

daring oar
#

anyways

#

im down to see more interior types

balmy pier
#

flowerman garden

vapid pier
#

conservatory in retrospect probably would work but then again SDM has it's one room

balmy pier
#

it grows flowermans

daring oar
#

but i think i'd be more interested in interior tiles

#

personally

#

i think the trifecta of factory, manor, and mineshaft already could have more done with it

#

there's only 2 maps in the game now that are manor dominant

#

as of v67, there's not even a single map in the game with more than 50% mineshaft chance

analog cypress
#

The ship guy should have more things to do on manor and minshaft

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

i like factory on vow and offense but i feel like them being mineshaft dominant helps them establish more of an identity

#

and while i like mineshafts on *artifice conceptually i like manors a lot more

#

it was nice having one manor map that wasn't always snowy hell

analog cypress
#

Rend exterior should be a mansion fr

daring oar
#

i also think mineshaft on dine is a weird choice

#

because like i said

#

rend and dine, only 2 manor dominant maps

#

but also

unreal ginkgo
#

Offense was primarily Mineshaft at one point I think

analog cypress
#

Rend literally screams "let's go to an manor"

unreal ginkgo
#

Idk what happened to that

daring oar
#

v50 leaned heavily into dine being the butler murder mansion

#

then every update afterwards, he reduced the spawn chance of butlers

#

and then in v60 he gave it a 30% mineshaft chance on top of that

#

so now it's just like

#

weird

#

what happened there

daring oar
daring oar
unreal ginkgo
#

There was a theory about Rend and Dine being prison moons, so

#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

analog cypress
#

Dine is where Zeekerss curses all unholy experiments he has upon

daring oar
#

offense was 2/3 mineshaft 1/3 factory in v60

#

then in v67 it was changed to 3/5 factory and 2/5 mineshaft

#

for some reason

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

kind of out of nowhere

balmy pier
#

dine has butler from lethal company at 9:30

analog cypress
#

with a beatiful curve

#

and flooded

unreal ginkgo
# balmy pier dine has butler from lethal company at 9:30

dful of Grab a Go ahead, Deitz nuts. and Watson. trust wallet lost. Deitz Those are Deitz nuts and Watson. nuts. Deitz Deitz? pancake swap Deitz are those? metamask hacked
then go away? on that have to progression then. the guest em look out to lads if (eth not depositing)

balmy pier
daring oar
#

dine challenge moon with increased forest giant chance is just dine

vapid pier
#

doesn't Vow have a higher chance for Mineshaft than Offense now lol

unreal ginkgo
balmy pier
#

was probably an estimate

daring oar
vapid pier
#

Amazing

daring oar
#

factory was replaced with mineshaft on vow in v60

vapid pier
#

Honestly I think it's kinda chill for Vow

unreal ginkgo
#

Wait what the fuck

daring oar
#

v64 made vow 55% factory and 45% mineshaft

balmy pier
#

would you consider allowing bees to spawn on offense

unreal ginkgo
#

Oh

vapid pier
#

because of the fire exit being at a much lower elevation and whatnot

balmy pier
#

offense seems to have some weird hardcode to prevent bees spawning on it

daring oar
unreal ginkgo
#

oh

unreal ginkgo
#

What the fuck

daring oar
#

he never put bees in the daytime spawn list

analog cypress
#

Dine doesn't need too many changes tbh, returning the main entrance to where it was and giving it 2 fire exits with a gentle spawn curve of entities would make it better

daring oar
#

offense exclusively spawns manticoils

balmy pier
#

yeah but

#

why

daring oar
#

idk

#

i like it

balmy pier
#

why does no other moon have something like that

unreal ginkgo
#

Ohh ImpulsiveLass

unreal ginkgo
#

Idk why he just

#

didn't keep them out of the roster

balmy pier
#

no you can put other things on from daytime spawns

#

just not circuit bees

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

that is the fault of centralconfig not supporting that

unreal ginkgo
#

and you say it's hardcoded or something

#

Which is

#

weird

daring oar
#

there is nothing preventing offense from spawning bees if you just put bees on its spawn list

unreal ginkgo
#

You can fucking let Dine spawn hives just fine lol

#

Idk why Offense is borked

daring oar
balmy pier
daring oar
#

bees have a spawn curve that prevents them from spawning by 9 AM

#

which is when the second wave when occur

#

so bees are only part of the initial wave when you touch down

unreal ginkgo
balmy pier
#

in that case flattenenemycurves in centralconfig would let them spawn there

unreal ginkgo
#

I've had them spawn at 11 am

daring oar
balmy pier
#

but like im asking this for just a rebalance change

daring oar
#

the spawn curve starts at -8.727501 and offense has a daytime spawn deviation of 10

balmy pier
#

cause i kinda like the idea of all moons before snowy can have hives

unreal ginkgo
#

We cannot let them get away with it

balmy pier
#

i mean assurance can so why not offense

daring oar
#

so that makes sense

#

a spawn deviation of 10 means that it takes that -9 value

#

and adds a random value (-10,9) to it

#

so even at the absolute highest possible value

#

offense spawns no daytime enemies at 7:40

#

it would come out to 0

#

and it could go as low as -19

#

anyways idk

#

i dont think bees would be very good on offense

#

i think the wide openness would make finding and collecting them kind of boring

#

and it'd be problematic later in the night with dogs and baboon armies

#

and the daytime curve seems specifically designed to preclude enemies at 7:40 AM

balmy pier
#

i mean
again
i point to assurance
which is the exact same map just with prop differences

daring oar
#

which would include bees

balmy pier
#

it could be slightly rare so you wouldnt have to find too many

#

like rarely even 2

daring oar
#

because it has boulders everywhere

#

and those completely change how you approach navigating the terrain

#

offense is basically nothing but open space on two sides of a hill

balmy pier
#

well then what about march

#

has the largest playable exterior in the game

daring oar
#

has a bunch of valleys, bunch of hills, and trees

balmy pier
#

also has highest bee chance

daring oar
#

also bees fit march aesthetically

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

basically yes

unreal ginkgo
#

At least that’s my assumption

balmy pier
#

it really doesnt

unreal ginkgo
#

Yeah it doesn’t

daring oar
#

bees are the only thing that makes march even remotely good in the earlygame

balmy pier
#

at least in practice it usually doesnt

unreal ginkgo
#

But you can kind of tell

daring oar
#

march stays losing to assurance

#

otherwise

#

and adamance technically eclipses them both as long as you can handle it

unreal ginkgo
#

Ass Off and Ada casually being goated

daring oar
#

i mean

unreal ginkgo
#

Though Off you need a shovel like

daring oar
#

i agree with 2 out of 3 of these

unreal ginkgo
#

or just don’t visit it

balmy pier
#

offense is not goated.....

analog cypress
#

If you're going to march because of the hives, why not consider vow?

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

march has way more beehives than vow does

#

but yeah, i'd generally encourage vow over march in vanilla

#

vow's mineshaft chance gives it a pretty good chance at beating out factory assurance and factory adamance profits

unreal ginkgo
#

?????????

IMG_0969.png
daring oar
#

and you can occasionally get 1-2 bees which are a nice bonus as well

balmy pier
daring oar
#

anyways

#

i dont hate bees on offense

#

but it requires multiple changes to make them happen

#

and i just dont see it as a big dela

balmy pier
#

i will say

daring oar
#

so i definitely wont be doing it in 0.1.0

#

but maybe later

#

idk

#

it's not offensive to me, or anything

unreal ginkgo
#

I will say that’s a job for Lass

#

Not Buttery

balmy pier
#

hey narp

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

does centralconfig not let you edit spawn deviations?

balmy pier
#

flattenenemycurves

#

which you also use

daring oar
#

Daytime Spawn Probability Range

balmy pier
#

thats a thing

unreal ginkgo
balmy pier
#

it would though

unreal ginkgo
#

I never see hives on Offense despite it being in its roster

balmy pier
#

it would let bees spawn at any daytime deviation

unreal ginkgo
#

Offense is my go-to moon in my modpack

#

So

#

There IS something wrong with it

vapid pier
#

I think we know

analog cypress
#

i may be crazy, but on early versions Offense did have bees?

daring oar
#

lethal company didnt even have bees in the initial release version

#

so probably not

analog cypress
#

early versions not like alpha

#

but close to v45~v50

balmy pier
#

it didnt

daring oar
#

the earliest release version was v35

#

i think that was only available during the free demo period on steam

vapid pier
#

It's always been only Manticoils

daring oar
#

and nobody's ever uploaded a copy anywhere

#

to my knowledge

#

i'd be curious to dig into it if they had

#

but anyways

analog cypress
#

internet archive has

#

i think

daring oar
#

v38 is the earliest version you can download if you have purchased the game on steam

#

which already had circuit bees

balmy pier
#

i will say now thinking about it
bees would probably be ass on offense because of how the ship lands there

daring oar
#

and they did not spawn on offense

balmy pier
#

but maybe im wrong

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

yes bees were added extremely shortly after launch

unreal ginkgo
#

Dang, guess it wasn’t just baboon hawks

daring oar
#

i think it was the first content update

analog cypress
daring oar
#

added bees

analog cypress
#

if you take the .exe from the steam path and put it on the demo, it will work

unreal ginkgo
#

Oh

#

Good, if I understood correctly

analog cypress
daring oar
vapid pier
#

you have to play it LAN apparently lol

daring oar
#

i saw something on the internet archive like this

unreal ginkgo
daring oar
#

executable removed

#

but it looked like it was taken down due to DMCA

#

so either it was reuploaded

analog cypress
daring oar
#

or this is a different one than i found

daring oar
analog cypress
unreal ginkgo
#

Buttery, do you like My Singing Monsters

#

Just a random question that popped up in my mind as I'm playing it rn

daring oar
#

i have no opinions on it

#

that reminds me

#

i wanted to re-add the TV static effect

#

on the menus and shit