Yes Fox

[woeful solar]

but it is a shame that the fox was outright removed

[peak narwhal]

I just wanna see something like ClaySurgeonOverhaul but without replacing the model

So I can use all the EnemySkinRegistry skins

[lilac finch]

My real issue is that, barring the issue with getting stuck, v55 Fox AI was better than v56 in every way, it went from an interesting enemy with actual gameplay and presence to something that does basically fuck all

I'd love to see v55 AI restored without the bugs instead of the weird, kinda unimpactful enemy we got afterwards

[chrome sable]

i think that good cruiser mod makes enemies avoid it

but not account for players in it

idk how it affects the fox if at all

[chrome sable]

i genuinely dont even remember how it was different

didnt it just run onto the ship and kill people

i remember its behavior being ocmpletely fucked in v55

but thats abt it

[lilac finch]

In v55, the intended behavior was that it would run up onto the railing and pull you out of the ship

Which worked decently often, but whenever it bugged, the fox would instead just enter the ship and then freeze, resulting in either A. No AI at all, or B. A very defensive and territorial fox that seemed to treat the ship as its shrouds

But I have some clips of it being amazing when it did work

https://medal.tv/games/lethal-company/clips/icF2AOhZL3nLmzFjC?invite=cr-MSxMUWQsMjQyMTgxNTc3LA

When it worked it was such a proper stalker and menace

Genuinely favorite enemy ever

[woeful solar]

it wasn't just the ship that was problematic

they got stuck constantly

if you were unlucky it would be inside your ship but even just at random nodes they would lock up and stop responding to anything

anyways, in v56+, the fox still kidnaps people from the ship

if enough people are looking at it it will cower away towards its nest but it definitely still attacks people who are alone and patrols the ship if someone stays behind

the v55 AI was basically just allowed to enter the ship while no-one was there iirc

i could maybe try to jury rig a hybrid AI but it's going to be hellish

diff between v55 and v56 AI files

there is at least 1 variable that used to be synced via RPC that got dropped, so that's unfortunate, wouldn't be able to reference that properly on all clients without custom networking

but I think fox is always owned by host so that might not necessarily be a dealbreaker

@somber turret i do notice some interesting stuff going on in the fox's AI that would potentially cause behavioral regressions in larger lobbies of players

in state 0, the fox apparently only checks if it should attack one player slot every 0.4s

so if you have morecompany set to, say, 50 slots, it'd cause huge targeting delay

because player 1 would be processed, then player 2 processed 0.4s later, player 3 processed 0.4s later, etc.

it would go through all 50 player slots even if they are unoccupied (it can't target empty player slots, but it will still check if that player is controlled, then wait for 2 more AI intervals before it checks the next slot)

i guess i need to figure out all the shit going on in this AI to know how badly that's an issue, but that means worst case it can take up to 20 seconds to target a player in its hiding phase

in vanilla it would never take longer than 1.6s

and with morecompany's default settings (it's 12 slots default, right?), it wouldn't take longer than 4.8s

this behavior seems to only affect state 0 and I think it could easily be adjusted to skip over the empty slots

[lilac finch]

All I know is that the fox in its current state does fuck all and never comes to the ship, almost never grabs people, it basically does nothing

Idk what causes it to be that way but that's my experience

[rustic coyote]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/761018127260581909/1261045844602261584/goober_fox.gif

[woeful solar]

trying to restore the fox's old ship behavior is going to be a mammoth task

and i think im sort of the opinion it's probably better suited for a companion mod

[rustic coyote]

what's the fox's old ship behavior

[woeful solar]

but idk, because in fairness, it's not like you can use the fox without yesfox

[woeful solar]

i think it does make sense for this to be fixed at least

since morecompany is still the most downloaded mod on thunderstore

[woeful solar]

tbh im not sure about all the specifics, im doing a bit of a deep dive right now to try and figure it out

but basically in v55 the fox always had a chance of being set to a "harass ship player" mode where it would beeline for the ship

after it had been hiding for long enough and a random chance succeeded

[lilac finch]

I mean ultimately my offer stands, regardless of how the mod is made, if someone went through and restored it to an actually good state, I would have $10-$20 for them depending on specifics

[lilac finch]

Yeah, I miss this

Amongst other things like the way it followed people around

Like now it doesn't go far from its Shrouds like ever

I miss him stalking and following me lol

[woeful solar]

as far as i can tell all the player stalking behavior is basically unchanged

but the fox does have some new mechanics in v56 where it hunts in a larger radius from its nest the longer it has been "unobserved"

and the radius shrinks (causing it to retreat) while it is being observed

[lilac finch]

Yeah I think that's the issue, it shrinks too quickly and doesn't grow quickly enough imo, so it just stays near the Shrouds and retreats the moment anyone looks at it rather than following them

[woeful solar]

in this case, "observed" meaning that a number of players are looking at it (the number of players connected to the server minus 1)

[peak narwhal]

It goes far from them all the time imo

[woeful solar]

so if there are 4 people in the game, it would retreat if 3 are looking at it

[lilac finch]

Idk then

[woeful solar]

meaning if at least 2 players are dead (or at least not outside) the fox should always be growing its range unless i misunderstand something

the AIs are all pretty messy and time consuming to untangle, i'm still in the middle of researching it

[lilac finch]

Also tbf Lunx the fox is basically harmless in your pack if you have a shovel, since you made it so you don't drop your stuff when he grabs you

So you can just immediately whack the tongue

[woeful solar]

ah wait nvm i misremembered it checking connectedPlayersAmount, not livingPlayers

[lilac finch]

I haven't seen the fox successfully drag someone off in your pack in ages

[woeful solar]

so actually it just depends how many players are alive (if you're the only player alive, staring at the fox alone is enough to reduce hunting range)

[lilac finch]

livingPlayers makes sense tbf

[woeful solar]

i wonder how easily their aggression could be "improved" by just changing this number back

idk this looks like it just causes them to recalculate how far their weeds spread

[peak narwhal]

Idek if I'm gonna keep him, I don't really feel like he's much of a threat atm and he doesn't add much to the game

[woeful solar]

and also it maybe has a typo? im not sure if this is intended to use currentHidingSpot if the parameter is true

[peak narwhal]

I like the fox, but he feels underwhelming lol

[quick flax]

Can't put my finger on why this is

[woeful solar]

but it is true when it gets called here

[quick flax]

No way whatsoever

[woeful solar]

well i mean if you disable the fox dropping your items that pretty strongly neuters its ability to do things to people

Lol

[peak narwhal]

fair

but I also think another part is cus I balanced the shrouds to be a small nest lol

[woeful solar]

but yes, i agree it could probably use a little more oomph

part of the problem was that my weed spawning behavior was a little too prone to putting nests too far from the ship to be relevant

[peak narwhal]

In V56 it was only annoying and really threatening cus shrouds would be so out of whack

that you were forced into so many deaths

[woeful solar]

before v1.1.0 it was pure random and also i didnt realize how many AI nodes were just not functional for weed growth

[peak narwhal]

A lot of the way my settings for KidnapperFoxSettings worked were cus of how overly oppressive it was when it was native in the game but with Yes Fox it's not as Oppressive lol

[woeful solar]

[Info   :    YesFox] 78/124 valid nodes (41 skipped)
[Info   :    YesFox] 5 failed: 14,69,82,86,110
[Info   :    YesFox] 25 nodes with <31: 16,18,32,35,37,38,50,51,56,58,61,62,79,83,85,90,96,97,101,105,106,113,114,115,118
[Info   :    YesFox] 39 nodes with <79: 16,18,32,33,35,37,38,46,50,51,56,58,61,62,63,70,79,81,83,85,90,91,96,97,100,101,103,105,106,108,111,112,113,114,115,118,120,121,123

this is some logging i was doing on march way back when i was trying to figure out some spawn problems with the weeds

before v1.1.0, my spawn logic would just choose any AI node at least 40m from the ship with equal weight

so the fox would pretty often spawn completely out of range of the ship and depend on having a huge hunting range to be in the playable space

but beyond that

[woeful solar]

you can see here that 5 of march's 124 nodes would completely fail to generate weeds (causing growth to reset back to 0)

another 25 nodes would generate less than 31 weeds which meant that the weeds would grow but the fox would never be allowed to spawn

unless the player killed all those weeds and allowed them to grow back somewhere else

i addressed all of these problems in v1.1.0 and it helps a lot with the fox generally being present

also the spawns are weighted now (like they are supposed to be in vanilla) so it is more likely to select nodes closer to the ship, just not within 40m

so the fox is usually close enough to the ship that it will fuck with the player that stays behind now

[peak narwhal]

I think the fox was designed too much as an anti-ship dad/mom enemy too tbh

A bit strange to say but if you're on the ship he likes to come after you constantly and pull you out of it

XD

It's not bad in practice but I know a lot of why people disliked him was cus of that and the insta-deaths if shrouds would be inside of the ship

[woeful solar]

well i think a problem with the v55 behavior is that it would also get really old

i agree the fox isn't as threatening as it could be right now

i think it gets better with each update

and i am probably too deeply invested in working on the fox with how much i hassle 1a3 about it

but anyways i think just porting v55 AI is going to have the opposite issue of right now

instead of the fox being too cowardly and spending most games in its nest away from the players

you will pretty much always encounter it inside the ship when you return each day

so every single day you will need to have some sort of weapon ready to counterattack it

if everybody is off of the ship and exploring the map together

otherwise the ship player just has to constantly deal with it every single day

and the number 1 complaint about the fox, back before it was removed, was how persistently it was a threat on the map

if you were even lucky enough to survive it spawncamping the ship, it's still going to be constantly entering the ship every day for the rest of the playthrough

i think not being aggressive enough is a far better problem to have than it being impossible to avoid without killing it every single day

[peak narwhal]

Yeah I agree

[ocean iris]

I will just throw it out in here that i have some concepts already i wanted to eventually get back to of a less faithful fox mod. Basically rewrite it how i would have designed its mechanics to work instead of a direct backport of any version. If people are interested in that I could look into actually doing it.
tbh I've also had a passing interest in tinkering with zaggy's new pathfinding api stuff that i know they're working on. if i do this maybe i could implement some of that goodness too.
If someone else ends up doing this that's also fine, I've been somewhat busy lately anyways. I just wanted to mention my possible interest / pre-existing plans.

[jade tusk]

I would personally love to see a reinvented fox. I love how it behaves and attacks, but the whole weed thing seems tedious to me and in the end your labor rewarded with not seeing the fox ever. I’d much rather foxes have counters after they’ve spawned rather than before.

[peak narwhal]

You should do it tbh I would love to see it

[somber turret]

Hmm interesting

[woeful solar]

i dont know how 1a3 feels

but at least IMO yesfox should be mostly limited to vanilla behavior, since it's currently the only option available for restoring removed content

it has a bunch of fixes (all within what i believe was zeekerss' intent anyway) and some additional config settings to tweak numbers in case you feel the defaults are overtuned

but i dont have any major plans to overhaul its design if i wind up contributing AI adjustments to it in the future

the most major alteration i would make is trying to restore its aggressive ship behavior from v55, if i can make it mesh with v56+'s mechanics

if youd like to do more (and it sounds like there is demand for it) you could make a separate mod dependent on yesfox

or i suppose re-implement everything yourself

[ocean iris]

yeah i was talking about a reimplementation. I'd probably register it as a modded enemy and write my own custom system for vein shrowd generation and stuff

[blissful gorge]

Are there any mods incompats I'm not aware of?

30+ vain shrouds, yet no kidnapper fox.

0195084c-ed1b-0d95-04bf-44f5bbc7a183

[woeful solar]

[06:04:54.3807554] [Error : YesFox] Weed enemies attempted to spawn but were denied. Reason: ListEmpty

@somber turret any ideas why that could be happening?

this is also in the log, further up

[05:54:15.5925661] [Info   :    YesFox] [GenerateWeedEnemiesList] BushWolf: Renamed addon EnemyType name
[05:54:15.5925661] [Info   :    YesFox] [GenerateWeedEnemiesList] BushWolf: Replaced addon EnemyAI enemyType
[05:54:15.5925661] [Info   :    YesFox] [GenerateWeedEnemiesList] BushWolf: Replaced original EnemyType prefab

afaict, there's no reason WeedEnemies should not be populated

K, I think i see what the problem is, but im not sure why it's happening yet

it looks like when you rehost from the title screen, GenerateWeedEnemiesList gets called again in a StartOfRound.Start postfix

but the second time it runs, it fails somewhere before this line
https://github.com/1A3Dev/LC-YesFox/blob/405a88b6013ab6a5dd6ac33f74cc44eec478c5f7/source/Plugin.cs#L294
because it doesn't print anything

presumably it fails because bushWolfTypeOrig is null, because nothing in the bushWolfTypeAddon branch prevents it from adding the former to the WeedEnemies list

so it's very likely something is wrong with that first find statement

[blissful gorge]

Which update introduced this bug?

[woeful solar]

my guess would be 1.1.1

because he fixed a bug where custom moons would include duplicate BushWolf enemytypes that would lead to errors

that was the last time this logic changed

oh, well, i also changed FindFirstObjectByType to FindAnyObjectOfType in v1.1.2

but that shouldnt be an issue unless a mod is somehow creating a second QuickMenuManager (and that somehow doesnt cause any other errors)

i will double check if this happens in v1.1.0 and v1.1.1

yes, fails in 1.1.1 too

yep

1.1.1 is what causes it to break

the 1.1.0 logic will properly re-populate the WeedEnemies list when opening a lobby for the second time, without relaunching the game

[blissful gorge]

Oki

Thanks u

[woeful solar]

can't rollback the code to 1.1.0 because then that would re-introduce the other bug

so i guess something else will need to be figured out

[woeful solar]

you can try rolling back to 1.1.0 on your personal profile, but just be aware of performance degradations from reverting 1.1.2, and if you use custom asset bundles that include duplicate BushWolfs, you will run into other problems

[blissful gorge]

Noted

[woeful solar]

okay, i think i have an idea what might be happening

the first time GenerateWeedEnemiesList runs, it finds bushWolfTypeOrig and bushWolfTypeAddon

both are named "BushWolf" when this happens the first time

then the second time, bushWolfTypeOrig is successfully found (as to be expected)

I think the problem is that bushWolfTypeAddon would point to the same object as bushWolfTypeOrig in the second search

because the original bushWolfTypeAddon from the initial function run has been renamed to "BushWolfAddon" and will no longer be found in the search, and bushWolfTypeOrig has Plugin.BushWolfAddonPrefab assigned as its enemyPrefab in the initial run

so the second time the function runs, bushWolfTypeOrig and bushWolfTypeAddon point to the same object, so bushWolfTypeOrig != bushWolfTypeAddon is coming up false and ending early

I think I can fix this logic, I will try and submit a PR for it

the reason it worked in 1.1.0 was because bushWolfTypeOrig searched for any enemyType named BushWolf that was assigned any other prefab than Plugin.BushWolfAddonPrefab

that would come up null on the second run, so it would be immediately substituted for bushWolfTypeAddon, and then it would be non-null and get added to the enemies list

[woeful solar]

i fixed it + even fixed the LOD materials while i was at it :)

[blissful gorge]

LOL???

Looks so weird with the HD shaders

[woeful solar]

this is, regardless, how it was meant to look

beforehand it was using the texture from inside its mouth on the lowest level of detail model

well, the material

it's the same texture for both but only the body material has the fluffy fur

so it would look naked

[peak narwhal]

Nah you just forgot how he looked back in v56

lol

[woeful solar]

well tbf you'll never be seeing the second LOD model at this distance

the LOD0 model would be used here and it's way more detailed

[blissful gorge]

No

I meant

The low-poly model looks weird with hd shaders

Since they're clashing against each other

[peak narwhal]

Fair

[woeful solar]

lol it's pretty fun to watch the kidnapper fox scramble around to different hiding spots as you kill its weeds

i have way too much fun with this dumb fucking animal

https://github.com/1A3Dev/LC-YesFox/pull/10

@somber turret when you get a chance, this would be a good patch to post relatively quickly. sorry that it wasn't caught sooner (been almost 3 weeks since v1.1.1)

the logic here is a lot simpler and I tested and it works in my environment (i'm ~95% confident it should work in general, but I'm always wary of giving absolute guarantees)

not sure I did the version 64 check right, but I also don't know how insistent you are on v62 compatibility now that it's several months old

I could double check in v62 if that is a major concern

actually, i suppose it might be good to check if this is ok in multiplayer, too. im only changing the prefab's renderers and enemyType field, which it seems like the previous code was doing just fine. but networking is essential here

[woeful solar]

@somber turret sorry to bug you, just a reminder since this is a pretty major problem

tl;dr: fox stops spawning permanently if you quit a game and rehost from main menu again, only way to fix RN (in thunderstore latest) is to completely quit and reboot

[woeful solar]

1a3 merged my fix into v1.1.3

if you haven't seen

so if you downgraded to v1.1.0, you should update back to latest again

[blissful gorge]

I did

Thank u

[woeful solar]

kinda feel like i need to fix this

still

[blissful gorge]

It is a pretty big problem if you're wanting to fight against vain shrouds yeah

[woeful solar]

all of the stuff im doing with vain shrouds needs to be done host-side

or at least, if it needs to happen client side, it can't be configurable because it needs to be consistent with all clients

which is why i havent tackled issues like this before

it's not exactly an issue of starting point because offense doesn't have any AI nodes up there

so it has to do with growth, which is client-side, and that sucks

the only reasonable way to deal with this is probably a manually curated blacklist for starting points (since growth is seeded based on the starting point and would always consistently result in this problem if specific points were selected)

[chrome sable]

there shouldnt even be navmesh up here tbh. zeeker issue

this doesnt happen on my maps thank god

[blissful gorge]

WHY IS THERE NAVMESH UP THERE WHAT 😭

[woeful solar]

the navmesh is automatically generated

[chrome sable]

ya but u can put modifiers up ther

[woeful solar]

and the mesh + collider of the factory building is considered when baking the navmesh

so stuff can move around near the entrance

zeekerss just forgot/didn't think about putting modifiers on top of the roof

to block it from generating up there

[chrome sable]

but if you could somehow do some weird raycasting shit to check for tags

and destroy weeds on concrete

lol

would be crazy

[woeful solar]

i dont really think that'd be sufficient

unfortunately

weeds can grow all through here

for example

and it's fine because artifice doesn't have a ton of playable space that doesn't have flooring

and this is just weeds "growing through the cracks" or whatever

[woeful solar]

but obv they shouldn't spawn outside of the playable area

[quaint moon]

I've also seen vain shrouds floating in the air because they grow on boulders too

[blissful gorge]

bruh momente

40 unit minimum spawn distance 🤑

Is this intentional. a bug, or do I need to make it farther

[woeful solar]

they can't start growing within 40 units of the ship

but they can grow in any direction to any distance

so this isn't an ideal result but it's not technically unintended with zeekerss' settings

if this bugs you i would suggest bumping the minimum spawn distance

[blissful gorge]

So I would need to make it farther, or is it a losing battle?

[woeful solar]

50 works out pretty well in my experience

it will probably never be perfect but this sort of occurrence is "rare enough" it is usually okay

you could just cap it at 70 immediately if you want but the fox does need to be sorta near the ship or it will be too cowardly to stir up trouble

[blissful gorge]

Noted, thank you

[rustic coyote]

would it be possible to have a config to configure the spawn chance per moon?

[mighty current]

yesfox isnt working for me : ( I've adjusted all the config settings to try and get it/ vaine shrouds to have a guaranteed spawn- even solo. but to no avail....

does anyone know what i can do to get it working or see if another mod is conflicting with it

[opal belfry]

What exactly is your process of testing?

Vain shrouds only spawn when you leave the moon

Try leaving and relanding

[woeful solar]

could you post your log file

[mighty current]

hi sorry just getting to this now! here's the log file (if i did it right)

[mighty current]

I'm sorry i dont understand! aren't vain shrouds meant to spawn upon landing on the moon? and then they grow throughout the day?

[woeful solar]

[Debug : YesFox] Weed enemies attempted to spawn but were denied. Reason: WeedCount | Amount: 0

at least in the log you posted, you didn't land on any moons with shrouds

the kidnapper fox is unable to spawn until a moon has at least 2 vain shrouds (but with default settings, there needs to be at least 31)

[mighty current]

i got the file from my bepinex folder, is there a way to get one each time i land on the moon

[woeful solar]

if you use mods to spawn the fox, it will immediately despawn without at least 2 weeds in proxiimity

natural spawns begin at whatever your "minimum weeds" setting is in your config (as stated earlier, 31 by default)

[woeful solar]

the game writes to the log as long as your game is open

you can just play the game and post your log after you close it

[mighty current]

ohhhh thats why

[woeful solar]

reopening the game will wipe the log

[mighty current]

thanks for your help. I'm gonna mess around with some settings and see if it fixes it

thank you!!!

[woeful solar]

sure

[mighty current]

do all my players need to have the same config values

[woeful solar]

currently all config settings are host-sided

whatever the host uses applies

[mighty current]

sweet! thanks again : D

[woeful solar]

for your convenience:

1. weeds only grow in between days (whenever "X Days Left" appears)
2. the "spawn chance" settings for weeds control the likelihood weeds will start growing on a moon that currently has 0 weeds
3. when a moon already has weeds, the spawn chance is ignored, and "growth chance" is used instead to advance stages between days
4. "same moon" affects whatever moon you just left the previous day, "other moons" affects all other moons that support weed growth

also
5. the fox can never spawn until at least "minimum weeds" have grown
6. with a default spawn chance (in the fox settings) of -1, the fox has an x/80 chance to spawn, where x is the number of weeds that have already grown, but any other value is used directly (20 means 20% chance)

you can verify the mod is working by setting all 3 spawn chance settings to 100 and landing over and over again

you should pretty quickly see weeds crop up and the fox not long after

the default settings for the mod are the unused values from v60 (which were nerfed from the original spawn chances) so the fox is pretty rare nowadays if you don't increase chances in your config

in v55, "spawn chance (same moon)" and "spawn chance (other moons)" would have been 100 and 21 respectively, and "minimum weeds" would have been 16

[mighty current]

this is super good to know. had no idea about that first point

that could very well be the issue in itself

ill update as soon as i see it work! im about to hop on with a buddy

[woeful solar]

for v56's rates, for same moon chance, you'd do either 21 (original v56) or 11 (final v56 hotfix before v60)

other moon chance was 8

sorry i know that's a lot of numbers but those are the official rates if you want to roll them back

[woeful solar]

also sure

let me know

i didnt see any errors in your log so it's probably just a matter of time

[mighty current]

vain shrouds are spawning!

thank you!

[opal belfry]

When you leave a moon shrouds have a chance to spawn on every moon. It’s much higher on the moon you just left.

Every time you leave a moon the shrouds grow a little more. They don’t grow throughout the day.

[mighty current]

wow! is that how it was back in vanilla as well? i had no idea

thanks for explaining!

[opal belfry]

Just thought I’d clarify every day you leave a moon every shroud on every moon grows some more. I think every shroud grows 0-2 more of itself each time if I remember what buttery said correctly.

In YesFox's config you can decrease the max amount of iterations which is how many times shrouds can grow. So if you set it to 5 then shrouds will grow a maximum of 5 times. You can also edit the chance of shrouds growing upon leaving the current moon you’re on and all other moons, if it doesn’t roll then the number of iterations won’t increase

[mighty current]

is this after each eject as well or dies it reset when u get ejected

[opal belfry]

After you get ejected/fail to meet quota all vain shrouds are reset. It’s per save file so going onto a different save file will load the state of the vain shrouds in that save.

[woeful solar]

ejecting resets all the weeds but runs one "growth tick" immediately so you can still encounter small amounts of weeds on day 1

[quaint moon]

standard adamance experience

[chrome sable]

ts pmo sm

istg

[fresh torrent]

the kidnapper foxes never seem to appear for me

either that or i don't play enough

what do i do

[woeful solar]

have you changed any of your settings?

[fresh torrent]

nah

[woeful solar]

ok

fox is pretty rare with default settings, you need to get several days into a playthrough before it'll start to spawn on average

it was made a lot less common in between v56 and v60

[fresh torrent]

should i keep it like that?

[woeful solar]

i'd suggest boosting Spawn Chance (Same Moon) to 11-21 and Spawn Chance (Other Moons) to 8

if you want to restore the v56 rates

[fresh torrent]

what would you suggest

[woeful solar]

well personally im happy with the defaults because i think the fox was a bit too common in v56

[woeful solar]

but if you aren't seeing it enough, these values are good

[fresh torrent]

ok

[woeful solar]

you can also decrease the minimum weeds settings back from 31 to 16 (as it was in v55) if that still is not enough

[fresh torrent]

how much would the fox spawn if those values were bosted by 1?

[woeful solar]

the spawn chance settings for weeds controls how likely weeds are to start growing on a moon

if "spawn chance (same moon)" is set to 20

it means there is about a 1 in 5 chance after leaving a moon, weeds will start growing there

the fox will start spawning on a moon about 3 or 4 days after the weeds start growing

[fresh torrent]

k

[woeful solar]

you will probably just have to tweak values until you are happy with them

[fresh torrent]

so i seem to can't get them to spawn

uhh

do they spawn on a specific moon or what

[woeful solar]

if you think the mod isnt working

you can set all the chances to 100%

and decrease your minimum weeds setting

and see if the fox will show up after a couple of days

the fox spawns on all vanilla moons

modded authors have individual control over what moons can/can't support the fox, but there is an "all moons" setting in the config you can enable if you suspect it's not working because of modded content

[fresh torrent]

how many days does it take for the weeds to start spawning with the values cranked to 100?

[woeful solar]

the weeds will start growing immediatley with 100% chances

how many weeds grow per day is inconsistent and depends on RNG

[fresh torrent]

yeah i think mine is broken

any ideas on how to fix it?

[woeful solar]

need to see a log

[fresh torrent]

ill uhh

get one in a bit

[rustic coyote]

still suggesting this...

[rustic coyote]

also, perhaps a setting to change how fast the kidnapper fox's nest size grows and decreases? i think it'd help alot with it being too cowardly

[blissful gorge]

Agree

[charred salmon]

This might sound weird but can we get a config to make the shroud grow throughout the day while you are there instead of growing on landing and stuff

[opal belfry]

Wouldn’t that require greatly changing their logic?

[woeful solar]

that is a massive change to functionality and i can pretty confidently say i wont be implementing it myself

[opal belfry]

Would kind of look weird with them blipping into existence anyway unless they slowly grow similar to when weed killer is used. But that’d be a whole lot more work.

[west wyvern]

Me fox is not spawning in version 69. Maybe I need to change something in the config? Weeds are also not spawning.

[woeful solar]

can you send a log? and have you tried setting weed and fox chance to 100% and landed on the same moon several days in a row?

the spawn chances for weeds and the fox are very low as of v60

usually they dont become a threat until pretty late in the game

[west wyvern]

.

that is, I need to land on the same moon 20 times and then the weeds can spawn and the fox itself?

[chrome sable]

no

20 is the maximum iterations (days) that weeds can grow for

per moon

[west wyvern]

why then nothing appears?

[chrome sable]

idk

are you landing on custom moons

[west wyvern]

vanilla

[chrome sable]

why are all of the icons question marks in ur config btw

oh do you manually download plugins

nvm thats irrelevant i was just curious

[west wyvern]

yes

[chrome sable]

idk this is weird to me though bc i was literally testing this morning and weeds were growing fine for me

try turning the spawn chance up

[west wyvern]

Should I just turn everything up to maximum?

[chrome sable]

well

actually just to test can you do that and then land on the same moon twice

it should 100% spawn weeds on the 2nd day

then we can really deduce if theres some error or you're getting unlucky

[chrome sable]

yeah try that then land on like experimentation a couple times or something

there should be weeds

if not then something is conflicting i think

[west wyvern]

I’ll test it now, if it appears I’ll write

[chrome sable]

IDK how yesfox config operates so you may have to restart after modifying config values

not sure

[west wyvern]

Wow he appeared!!!

[chrome sable]

what the hell

[west wyvern]

xD

[chrome sable]

lol

[west wyvern]

Do the weeds appear immediately, or me need to wait?

sad nothing appears

[chrome sable]

immediately they never grow mid day

[craggy lantern]

I have a question, with this and weed killer fixes, my hopes are that if you used the weed killer to kill every weed on the moon on a day when you visit, that the next day there would be no weeds as well. Like, as far as I understand, was originally intended for the kidnapper fox when zeekerss added it. Is this the case?

[opal belfry]

Yes. So long as you kill all the weeds and the chance for weeds to grow doesn’t roll again when you leave the moon that’ll be the case

Im 95% sure that’s how it worked in vanilla too unless it broke somehow

[craggy lantern]

it did, horrendously, thats one of the big reasons why kidnapper fox got so many complaints

and my goal is to set the chance to grow to actually be fairly low, because I will have many many moons and if i leave it at base chance it will grow like wildfire

[opal belfry]

I recommend turning down the other moon next iteration chance then

For me 35% worked well on a modpack with nearly 20 moons

[woeful solar]

this is how vanilla works

if every single weed is killed, weeds reset on that moon and stop growing until the random chance succeeds again

there is not much point killing weeds unless you are killing all of them though

in between days, weeds are always guaranteed to increase by 1 iteration (unless it's at 20 iterations which is "too many weeds" anyway)

[craggy lantern]

well thats configurable too with the mod

[woeful solar]

and any weeds you don't kill will regrow any weeds you did kill within 8 meters

[craggy lantern]

which i will turn down

[opal belfry]

Is that alongside the usual extra weeds that are created?

And is there a limit to it or could one weed revive like 12 or 13 weeds at once

[craggy lantern]

do i still need to find a seperate mod that prevents weeds from spawning under the ship landing zone?

[woeful solar]

for now yes

but sobership (last i used it, at least, i dont know if it was ever fixed) only works for the host

and i dont know if there are any other mods that are applicable

rebalanced moons will work but iirc only on the custom scenes

[craggy lantern]

what does that even mean

[woeful solar]

the mod named "sobership"

weeds that spawn next to the ship will disappear for the host but all other players will see them still

[craggy lantern]

even if they have the mod installed?

[woeful solar]

yes

it doesnt work for clients

it was designed under the assumption that weeds could just be destroyed on the host

but weeds generate separately on all clients, just with a shared seed and iteration count

so all the code to destroy weeds only ran on the host and other clients desynced

[craggy lantern]

Wait so if I destroy the weeds as a host it wont destroy them on the client? like with the weedkiller

[woeful solar]

no because that action is networked in vanilla

[rustic coyote]

still suggesting this...

[woeful solar]

i suppose it could be done host-side, so it's not a huge gap from the existing settings

it seems like it wouldnt very intuitive to tweak though

[rustic coyote]

depends, how do you think the config would look like?

[flat dust]

Does maximum itterations means after those many days no more weeds can spawn on that moon?

[woeful solar]

yes

[flat dust]

like even if the chance for vain shrouds rolls again?

[woeful solar]

the chance isn't calculated

because it's already at max

[flat dust]

oh

i mean maximum iterations like the setting for how many days in a row additional shrouds can spawn on the moon

[woeful solar]

once the first iteration generates there is no more chance for vain shrouds

they are guaranteed to grow once per day

[flat dust]

so whats the growth chance config for?

[woeful solar]

it controls the chance iteration will increase per day

in vanilla it is guaranteed hence 100% default

[flat dust]

So if the setting is lower than 100% are they still guaranteed to grow once per day?

[somber turret]

No

[flat dust]

So what happens if after 20 days they don't spawn enough shrouds to spawn a fox?

[somber turret]

Growth chance is the chance for it to increment the interations each day after the initial spawn chance succeeds

[flat dust]

Explain for dummies

Those words are to big

[somber turret]

So basically there's the initial spawn chance for vain shrouds which is for whether they spawn on the moon

If that succeeds then in vanilla the iteration gets increased by 1 each day (which is a 100% chance in vanilla - but the chance is customisable in this mod via the growth chance)

So if the growth chance is lower you would likely have less than 20 iterations after 20 days

[flat dust]

Than what happens if I have less than enough to spawn a fox

[somber turret]

Then the fox wouldn't spawn

[flat dust]

Are more shrouds ever able to spawn on the moon

Or is it just fox free forever

[somber turret]

It'll try each day until it hits the max iterations

So at some point you'd have enough shrouds for the fox to spawn

[flat dust]

So this will roll until it's max iterations?

[somber turret]

Yes

[flat dust]

Ok

One more question

Approximately how many shrouds grow each iteration

[somber turret]

Tbf I haven't looked at the shroud spawning logic for a few months so I honestly don't even remember 🤣

[flat dust]

And also what's the max iterations?

[flat dust]

Alr lol

[somber turret]

It's basically the max limit for how many times the shroud spawning loops (more loops = more shrouds spawning)

[flat dust]

No but like

What is the max iterations

[somber turret]

As in the default value?

[flat dust]

Yes

[somber turret]

20

[flat dust]

Alright

Ohh

I see

So like

Nvm

I see

So after there are 20 iterations it won't grow anymore?

Like ever

[chrome sable]

thats what they just said yes

[flat dust]

Ok

[woeful solar]

as of 1.1 this can no longer happen

i completely overhauled the starting point selection system

weeds are only allowed to grow at a specific location if that location supports enough weeds to spawn the fox after maximum iterations have passed

if you set your max iteration count too low (and it can never reach minimum weeds) then weeds don't grow at all and you will get complaints about it in your log

[flat dust]

[woeful solar]

but if weeds are growing at all, it means your current settings will eventually support the fox being allowed to spawn on that map

[flat dust]

I'm guessing weeds can't appear day 1? (Like u won't see them on the moon on ur first day)

[woeful solar]

day 1 of a brand new save file has 0 weeds

[flat dust]

Alright

[woeful solar]

any future days are allowed to generate weeds on any planet that supports weeds

day 1 will also allow weeds if you get fired and reset (this is not the same as creating a new save file)

[flat dust]

Alright

[woeful solar]

20 iterations is vanilla's hard cap for maximum iterations, so at default values, weeds will max out 20 days after the initial spawn chance succeeds

if you set a growth chance of 50%, it will take ~40 days on average (usually more or less)

but the setting exists for you to decrease that value

the fox will almost always be able to spawn after far less than 20 iterations and that can help with lag, or just make weeds a little less nightmarish to control

[woeful solar]

there is no easy answer to this question though

the first iteration always generates at least 1 weed exactly on the starting point

and each iteration allows all existing weeds to spawn an additional 1-2 "branch" weeds

up to a maximum of 15

so iteration 1 will have anywhere from 1-3 weeds (there is a 50% chance to grow 1 branch weed, and a 50% chance to grow 2, but there is also a possibility that both can fail to generate)

iteration 2 has anywhere from 1 to 3 weeds to work with, and each spawns an additional 0-2 branch weeds

iteration 3 has 1 to 9 weeds

etc.

[flat dust]

So it's exponential

?

[woeful solar]

sort of but then it gets capped very quickly

[flat dust]

Alright

[woeful solar]

iteration 4 would be allowed to have 1 to 27 weeds at the start

except that iteration 3 -> 4 would be capped at growing only 15 weeds max

so instead iteration 4 is 1-24

[flat dust]

Ohh

[woeful solar]

basically the max weeds per iteration is:

1. 3
2. 9
3. 24
4. 39
5. 54
   etc.

often you will have significantly less weeds than the maximum

because you won't always roll the 50% chance to grow 2 branch weeds

and some of those branches will also fail to generate, and when they fail to generate, they fail to branch on the next iteration as well

[flat dust]

So it's just

Very complicated

Lol

[woeful solar]

yes vain shrouds are one of the most complicated systems in the game by far

[flat dust]

Maybe he could have put all his work into making maneater not a pain in solo

[woeful solar]

it just makes me sad how much work was put into it that ultimately wound up on the cutting room floor

and might remain that way

[grand flicker]

is it currently possible to have the shrouds only grow on set moons, and not all of them though?

[woeful solar]

by default yesfox will respect moons' canSpawnMold flag

but also, by default, all vanilla moons (except gordion) have that flag set to true

[flat dust]

Ok so just checkmark or whatever is what I'm saying is correct

After u get the % chance for shrouds to spawn on that moon, than they will start spawning
When the growth chance hits, shrouds will "grow/spread" or whatever
After they grow 20 times, they will stop growing

[woeful solar]

Yes

[flat dust]

Ok

[woeful solar]

decreasing max iterations changes 20 to whatever number you change it to

[flat dust]

Alright

[woeful solar]

growth chance always hits with default settings because it defaults to 100%

but that is what the growth chance does, if you change it

[flat dust]

I have the start whatever setting to 100% on the planet I'm on, and growth at like 20

%

[woeful solar]

so in your case

assuming you have "Spawn Chance (Other Moons)" set to 0%

[flat dust]

Yep

[woeful solar]

the first day you spend on a moon would have 0 weeds

the next day would have 1-3

and every day afterwards (assuming "Growth Chance (Same Moon)" and "Growth Chance (Other Moons)" are both set to 20%) there would be a 1 in 5 chance that more weeds would grow

[flat dust]

Yep

[woeful solar]

if that's the behavior you desire, then that's the settings you want

yes

[flat dust]

Alright

What should I make the max iterations

So the fox can still spawn and stuff but there isn't a ton of fhem

Them

[woeful solar]

i've never run tests to verify the lowest max iteration count that supports the fox spawning

but the fox's minimum weeds is 31

by default

so unless you change that value, it will never be able to spawn until at least iteration 4

since iteration 3 will never end with more than 24 weeds on the map

but if you set max iterations to 4, there's a decent chance the fox will fail to spawn on some maps

because 24-39 weeds is not a lot of wiggle room for 31 required weeds

[flat dust]

Or 10 iterations I mean

Is good

[woeful solar]

i would be like 99% confident that 10 iterations would support the fox spawning on all vanilla maps

yes

[flat dust]

Alright

If the logs start complaining I'll notice lol

[woeful solar]

like i said earlier, i rewrote the spawn system for weeds in v1.1 to fix a bunch of bugs with the fox's consistency

[flat dust]

I check that stuff a lot cuz having errors makes it hard to figure out what's causing problems when there is something going on

[flat dust]

Alright

[woeful solar]

as long as there is at least 1 seed that spawns minimum weeds at max iterations (that also starts at least minimum distance away from the ship)

weeds will be allowed to grow on that map

now, if there is only exactly 1 seed that matches that criteria

weeds will grow at that starting location every single run

[flat dust]

I see

Also I heard that shrouds can spawn under the ship

Can this happen?

[woeful solar]

but if no seeds match the criteria you'll see the following in your log when you land

Level "PLANETNAME" has no valid AI nodes

and probably multiple of these above

Mold growth: outsideAINodes[#] rejected (max weeds: # < MINWEEDS)
Mold growth: outsideAINodes[#] rejected (no ground)

[woeful solar]

yes, there is no spawn protection for vain shrouds in vanilla, and it is a bit of a pain to implement since growth is all client side

everybody has to use the same exact behavior or it will lead to desyncs

vanilla tries to pick a starting point that is at least 40 units away from the ship location but for some reason or another that code doesn't work

and i've never been able to figure out why

in any case i have resolved that issue in yesfox (and the minimum distance is configurable as well)

[flat dust]

Alright

[woeful solar]

vanilla also makes weed growth "undirected" if it is growing in the direction of the ship (due to mold attraction)

which somewhat minimizes the likelihood that weeds will grow underneath the ship on certain maps

but in general

a lot of vanilla maps support weed growth under the ship at 20 iterations only 40 units away from the ship

[flat dust]

Btw with this mod are weeds able to grow into the no weed area

[woeful solar]

at low iteration counts it is less likely to be a prevalent issue, but it is still possible, which is why i added options to increase the starting distance as a bandaid fix

[flat dust]

I put it at 70 units away lol

[woeful solar]

the host picks the starting point, so that can be configurable without causing synchronization issues, but it's still a bit of a bandaid

[flat dust]

Cuz I don't want them near my ship

[woeful solar]

the only real solution is to alter the growth algorithm to just not allow weeds within a certain radius of the ship

but that's a clientside change that has no precedent set in vanilla

so i wouldnt want it to be enabled by default, and if the host enables it, it would need to sync with everybody

so i just havent bothered with it to be honest

[flat dust]

Fair enough

I think eventually something like that would be nice

But it's def not needed

[woeful solar]

what do you mean by the "no weed area"

[flat dust]

The area where weeds can't spawn

I forgot what to call iy

T

[woeful solar]

well

[flat dust]

Lol

[woeful solar]

anywhere enemies can walk, weeds are allowed to grow

[flat dust]

I mean like

The radius

Where weeds can't originate

[woeful solar]

anywhere enemies can spawn, weeds are allowed to start (as long as the distance is ok and yesfox's secondary checks are accepted)

[flat dust]

The distance

I'm talking about the distance

From the ship

[woeful solar]

yes, right now yesfox allows weeds to grow inside the minimum-distance-from-ship

[flat dust]

[woeful solar]

they will never start in that radius

[flat dust]

What

Oh alr

That's what I meant by it lol

[woeful solar]

but they are allowed to grow from any position into that radius because i can't change that logic host-side

that is sort of by design, because yesfox's default settings are meant to be "vanilla with bug fixes"

[flat dust]

Lethal company more like stupid company

[flat dust]

Fair enough

[woeful solar]

and zeekerss never said (or implied with his code) that weeds growing into the ship was a bug

weeds starting next to the ship has been a bug ever since v56

[woeful solar]

and yesfox can fix that without clashing with this design principle

[chrome sable]

im pretty sure i like

explicitly remember telling him abt it in the past

and he just said he never had it happen

so idk its a big grey area for me

i think its just something he genuinely forgot to account for

[woeful solar]

well i think it's almost entirely a net negative

it's ugly, it's bad for gameplay, and the fact he was changing start position to account for ship distance does imply he was at least trying to make it less of an issue

[chrome sable]

same with them spawning on roofs etc

like nothing in the code implies this isnt intentional but it definitely isnt

[woeful solar]

but it would have been so easy for him to implement code that just destroys weeds or blocks them from spawning within a certain distance of the ship

and he didnt do that

[woeful solar]

and while it's definitely gray area (and i personally dont like it) i still want to mostly stick to this principle

at least with the changes i have made

1a3 might have a different opinion on the situation

[woeful solar]

he did implement a distance check for the ship but all it does is overwrite "mold attraction" if it's causing stuff to grow in the direction of the ship

while it's too close

[woeful solar]

i do wonder a little bit if that was supposed to be this, and he just goofed

it is certainly possible

but can't say for sure

and idk if he'd open up to his thoughts about it especially since it's cut content he doesnt seem interested in supporting anymore

[kind parrot]

what does this option even do

[woeful solar]

it ignores the canSpawnMold property on moons and assumes everywhere except the company is allowed to grow weeds

that value is true for all vanilla maps

but custom moons might disable it

[lament hornet]

rebalanced moons' embrion has them disabled too, right?

[woeful solar]

im not sure

rebalanced moons used to disable them on embrion and titan but that might no longer be a thing since my mod is marked as a dependency now

[lament hornet]

guh

[chrome sable]

pretty much what buttery said, it used to (as well as titan) but i removed it bc butterybalance does it for me

[blissful gorge]

Are y'all aware of the issue with vain shrouds sometimes relocating upon restarting Lethal Company

[woeful solar]

do you mean savescumming

the starting position for a moon only gets selected the first day you land with at least 1 iteration

if you don't save your game by going back into orbit

it will reselect a starting position the next time you land

the only other thing that should move the starting points is wiping out the shrouds entirely and having them grow back from 0 again

[blissful gorge]

They were completely gone after I had restarted the game, and upon savescumming; they were back in their original positions before I restarted

There were more than the iteration 1 vain shrouds too

So like

[woeful solar]

did you savescum after returning to orbit from the first day you saw weeds growing

the iteration count doesnt matter

only thing that matters is "more than 0"

the starting point has to be selected after you land

it's selected randomly with no seeding

it's only consistent if you return to orbit and the game saves

[blissful gorge]

We landed, the vain shrouds were there, I restarted the game, the vain shrouds were gone, then I savescum, and then they're back where they initially were

[woeful solar]

that would make sense yes

if you never returned to orbit then there would have never been an opportunity for the starting position to save

when they were "gone" it is likely they were at a different starting position

[blissful gorge]

How the did the game suddenly remember the exact positions from before I restarted after savescumming

[woeful solar]

it's a bit like how if you savescum, relanding doesn't generate an identical dungeon to the last time you played

even if it's the same moon with the same weather

[blissful gorge]

It was identical after I savescummed

[woeful solar]

there are a limited number of valid starting points for the weeds

and they are chosen from randomly

[blissful gorge]

It just wasn't identical after I initially restart the entire game

[woeful solar]

it just chose spot A the first time, spot B the second time, and spot A again by coincidence the third time

[blissful gorge]

But after I savescummed, again, they were in the exact same spots they were before I restarted initially

[woeful solar]

yes, because there are only so many places that can be selected

the closest spot to the ship has a 13% chance to be selected each time

and weed growth is seeded based on the starting position

so if the starting point is identical, growth will be identical

[blissful gorge]

I... see?

[woeful solar]

anyways

[woeful solar]

there is no way to get around this

because you need to land on the moon for my algorithm to sample node distance from ship, sample navmesh, etc. verify that it will support the fox at maximum growth

if you land on the moon and go back to orbit it should lock in the starting position and then you will have no issues with it rerolling

if you do experience issues, that would be a bug and would warrant a closer look

but it shouldnt be possible, at least via yesfox's implementation

i suppose it's a little weird but savescumming means you will encounter different dungeons and enemies on the exact same day

so it isn't exactly inconsistent with vanilla behavior

[pastel dew]

By any chance will Yesfox have a black list update for vainshrouds to not spawn on certain maps cause currently there is no way to turn them off that I am aware of, I am basically wanting to have the kidnapper fox spawn on some maps and not on others.

[woeful solar]

just tbh i currently have no plans to make a PR for it and idk if 1a3 has a strong opinion about it either

[pastel dew]

ah okay well hopefully it will be updated someday, I guess the fox will have to have a chance to spawn on every map lol.

[opal belfry]

If you have ButteRyBalance then there’s a config for shrouds to be disabled on Titan and Embrion, and moon creators can choose to enable or disable shrouds in general, for example Submersion has shrouds disabled, while all the other moons in Generic Moons has the shrouds enabled.

So in general it’s usually alright as it is.

[pastel dew]

oh yes I did see those configs options on butteryrebalance also thanks for the info on how some modders moons have the vain shrouds disabled and enabled, I appreciate it, that was very informative 😄

[blissful gorge]

The discussion we were having abt Artifice gave me a request idea

Could there be an option for the kidnapper fox to ignore the Cruiser

If you wanted to explain it, “realistically,” then the kidnapper fox is so low to the ground that they can easily go under the Cruiser as it drives over them

As you said, the kidnapper fox gets hard-countered by it

If the mechanic is too overpowered, then I think the kidnapper fox getting one damage taken each time one of the Cruiser’s wheels runs over them would be better

Not exactly in-line with YesFox though I guess

[woeful solar]

i am of the opinion this does not belong in yesfox

implementing it is a bit tricky as well

because the cruiser both functions as an un-identified damage source and an instant kill

so there's no way for the fox to detect if it got hit by a car vs. smashed by a spike trap

or if it got hit by a car vs. bitten by a dog

you'd have to patch the cruiser instead to block it from dealing damage to the fox

[blissful gorge]

Fair enough

I’ll see if Science Bird is interested in tackling it then

[somber turret]

v1.1.4

• Fixed exception in v70

Full Changelog: https://github.com/1A3Dev/LC-YesFox/compare/v1.1.3...v1.1.4

[dire heron]

Can it still go onto the ship?

[woeful solar]

yes, but it has to wait outside the doors for a while before it's allowed to do so

[dire heron]

Alr so just gotta keep an eye on it

[woeful solar]

yes, you will hear it approaching the ship a good bit before it is actually a threat, if you are the radar watcher

[dire heron]

Say, what exactly made people hate it so much

It sounds counterable

[woeful solar]

there was a bug that allowed the weeds to start growing right next to the ship (and then grow directly underneath the ship) which would lead to it usually spawncamping players for the entire day

and if you attacked it it could easily wipe the entire team immediately after landing

a fix was attempted but that bug was never 100% fixed all the way up until the fox's removal

yesfox fixes it, which fixes almost all of the balance problems with the fox imo

[dire heron]

Since our team isn’t well. All that good we used that one confit mod to lower hp and damage instead of insta death

[charred salmon]

Does this mod work host-only?

[opal belfry]

No

[charred salmon]

tragic

I wonder why Zeek didn't just leave the code and models in for the fox and just disable him

[opal belfry]

probably bloat

[golden crown]

does weeds spawn after some time or will they spawn instantly on the first moon?

[lament hornet]

after some time

they take a while to be enough to spawn a fox now

[golden crown]

so it wont spawn on like first or second day?

[opal belfry]

Every time you land on a moon it rolls a random chance for shrouds to grow. Which is by default 8%

And then every other moon has a 4% chance to start growing shrouds

Then each day after that more shrouds will grow, until the fox is able to spawn.

[golden crown]

ah so thats why it doesnt wanted to show up everytime

aight thank you so much

[opal belfry]

Yep

You can also change the chance for it to grow on a moon, the chance for it to grow on other moons, the chance for it to keep growing each day, the max amount of shrouds, how many are needed for the fox to spawn ect.

[icy adder]

heyyy how do i choose the moons

also, could someone give me a quick overview of how the spawn exactly works

im confused and dont have a lot of time to playtest

not looking for anything complex either, just want to choose the moons and the chance of the whole shroud thing happening

[woeful solar]

@icy adder you are not able to individually select moons

it is up to the author of said moon to enable/disable shrouds on it

but you have the option to force enable shrouds on every moon

[icy adder]

aww

[woeful solar]

all vanilla moons always have shrouds enabled (except for the company obviously)

[icy adder]

no LLL, quantities, centralconfig?

[woeful solar]

LLL does not let you override the canSpawnMold flag for a planet

im not sure about quantities or centralconfig

but the functionality is not implemented directly in yesfox

yesfox will respect the setting if other mods override it, as long as you have yesfox's "all moons spawn weeds" setting disabled

whatever it is called

[icy adder]

All moons yeah

oh well ill give those 2 a shot some time, ty

[woeful solar]

anyways

the way the spawns work

every time the "X Days Left" screen appears (or immediately after the game resets from being fired)

every single moon will run the spawn behavior

if the moon has any weeds present on it, it uses the growth chance setting, and if that chance succeeds, the weeds will grow +1 day

if a moon has 0 weeds present, it uses the spawn chance setting, and if that chance succeeds, weeds will instantly grow for 1 or 2 days of progress

current moon chance is used for the moon that your ship just left. if you got fired, it runs on experimentation

other moons is used for every other moon

so for example

if your ship just left March, and you're using the default settings of 8.5% current and 4% other moons

if march has 0 weeds growing on it, it will have an 8.5% chance to grow 1 or 2 days worth of weeds

if assurance and vow already have weeds on them, they will have a 100% chance (default) to grow +1 day of weeds

and then say all the other moons are empty; then experimentation, offense, adamance, etc. will all have a 4% chance to grow 1 or 2 days worth of weeds

sorry for the lengthy explanation but it is a convoluted system

if you have any questions i can try to answer them

[icy adder]

i think i get it

ty

will come back to this if i find a way to make em stick to certain moons

[dusty scarab]

Yeah I actually had one question: In vanilla, the spawn rate (as far as I'm aware) is 20%. Was it 20% for every moon in vanilla regardless of whether you were on it or not, or was there a lowered spawn rate for moons you weren't on assuming there was no vain shrouds?

[woeful solar]

there is no vanilla instance of 20%

in the very first build of v56, the spawn chance for same moon was 21%

that was reduced to 11% in a future patch and v60 reduced it further (yesfox defaults correctly here)

[dusty scarab]

Ahhh I see

Lethal company wiki spreading misinformation strikes again

I always thought it was 20% in vanilla

[wraith lava]

does an 'iteration' pass even if the growth chance didn't succeed?

like, say you only have max 5 days for growth, does the growth have to succeed for one of those days to be used up?

or does a day get used up regardless of whether it grew or not

[dusty scarab]

To further add onto this, what was the spawn rate of vain shrouds in vanilla for moons you are not on currently, and is the default iteration of 20 in the config vanilla default?

[somber turret]

no

the iteration is only increased if the grow chance succeeds

[wraith lava]

glad to hear that's the case, thank you

[woeful solar]

all of yesfox's default settings match vanilla

[dusty scarab]

Sounds good

[wraith lava]

as far as I've been able to tell through testing, the fox seems broken on all the custom moons I've tried. I'm not sure yet if it's something on my end, but the fox only seems to leave its nest on vanilla moons

wondering if this is me or if this is a known problem

[somber turret]

Not a known problem

Do you have the config option for all moons enabled?

[wraith lava]

at the time I had it disabled, but I can check again with it enabled, when I'm home in a few hours

I had it disabled to check which customs moons had the mold flag disabled/enabled

unrelated but down the line ive been thinking to make a mod to customise the mold flag per moon

[somber turret]

Well tbh that probably would make sense to be part of yesfox

[wraith lava]

oh, yeah probably 😅

[placid narwhal]

For some reason the kidnapper fox stay still on generic moons even if there's a player inside vain shrouds. Maybe it is a problem with generic moons, im gonna see if the next update fix this.

[wraith lava]

that's what i had been experiencing except every non-vanilla moon

nearly home, I'll make a fresh modpack with nothing but yesfox and do more testing

[placid narwhal]

Even with rebalancedmoonsbeta which changes vanilla moons layout the fox works as should be.

[placid narwhal]

Maybe it is just a navmesh problem. Generic moons navmesh are breaking interior enemies too. Next update will fix it.

[lament hornet]

I'd love that

[crystal flicker]

is this relevant for v72? it's just that the description on the site only lists v60-v62 versions

[lament hornet]

yeah it works

[placid narwhal]

Vanilla Moons works fine. Generic Moons Nope (maybe next update will fix it), other modded moons idk

[wraith lava]

this happened on vow

went again and worked ok this time

[woeful solar]

i will have to look into this again

i revamped the weed logic a ton to try and prevent this

99% of cases should be prevented but i might need to blacklist some nodes on certain maps

or make the logic more robust

[wraith lava]

fox can enter ship; I thought that was something that was patched out? correct me if wrong

[woeful solar]

the fox was blocked from entering the ship in the first version of v56 as a temporary change

in later updates to v56 it was given back the ability to enter the ship but only after it spends several seconds waiting outside near the ship

[wraith lava]

oof okay

understood

[wraith lava]

I added to the config by adding per-moon overrides for the fox & weed settings (all off by default). would it be alright to open a pull request for it?
it's not quite ready, need to double check things, but thought i should ask. i've never done a PR before so im a little uncertain of the etiquette

[wraith lava]

thanks for approving my PR!!

[lament hornet]

you're a hero

[icy adder]

[woeful solar]

cool

does the config show the default value for its respective moon

out of curiosity

it might be helpful information for the end user to have

[icy adder]

ill check in a bit

[placid narwhal]

The fox stay still on generic moons is a problem with navmesh? Ik that generic moons navmesh was affecting interior enemies

[icy adder]

huh

dont know where the config is

loaded all the way to the ship lobby

mayeb i gotta land?

there we go

[icy adder]

every override config generated the exact same except for sector0

which disables weed spawning

otherwise they all look like this

[placid narwhal]

@woeful solar it looks like butterybalance has a little incompatibility. I have disable on titan/embrion and the vain shroud still appear after this update.

[wraith lava]

yes it derives the default value from a moon's canSpawnMold flag directly

also, just to be thorough i checked it does this even after the config is already created. if a moon is updated, the default value should update as well. to test I flipped the default value internally and it updated the default value of a config that was already generated

[woeful solar]

im just gonna remove these settings (and probably remove yesfox as a dependency) in the next version

[wraith lava]

Also a point of clarification: in order to make use of the Enable Weed Spawning toggles for each moon, the "All Moons" setting needs to be disabled

[woeful solar]

now that yesfox has full controls for it

[lament hornet]

yah because I don't think people can generate their own values for the fox, right? only if it can spawn or not

[wraith lava]

yeah that's right. all moons would've had the same fox/weed values by default

now I guess you can do weird niche things. "fox moon" that has fox immediately lol

[lament hornet]

yeah!!!

[opal belfry]

The update is cool as hell!

Been working on a modpack to replace my current one, now I have something to config while I wait for some mods like CR and beanies interiors to update

[visual junco]

so just disable no vain shrouds to fix this in titan and embrion's config to fix this in butteryrebalance??

[wraith lava]

I wrote a tweak that prevents kidnapper fox from going in the ship, and I want to slowly add more tweaks & quirks for the fox but I'm not sure whether I should contribute things like that to yesfox, or start my own mod? since it might start to step outside of just 'bringing the fox back', which is what I had understood yesfox's primary purpose to be

would appreciate anyone's thoughts on that

[opal belfry]

It’s always nice to have more options in base YesFox. But if you feel it doesn’t fit the original purpose of just adding the fox back and adding a few settings then you could make your own mod.

[somber turret]

well the point of the fox is that it goes into the ship after a while

since its an enemy that mainly targets ship-people

[woeful solar]

outside of fixing objective bugs i think changes to the fox's behavior deserve to be released separately

personally

the exception to that rule, in my mind, might be a setting to restore its more aggressive v55 behaviors (since that would still be rooted in "restoring vanilla behavior")

number tweaks to spawn rates, iteration counts, etc. make sense to include in yesfox because it has to re-implement all of that logic anyway

and zeekerss was changing those numbers all the way up until the fox was removed

[woeful solar]

yesfox's default config respects vanilla v60 values, but technically spawn rates were more common in v56 before the fox's removal, so it is worth having settings to change them available out-of-the-box

anyways all of that is my opinion

[wraith lava]

thanks for all your thoughts, i'll probably make something separate then. but got plenty of time to digest as i'm gonna be busy with other stuff for a couple weeks

[south vector]

What will happen if I disable vain shroud spawning for a planet (like Junic), enable the fox overrides, put minimum needed weed to 0 and for example put spawn chance of kidnapper fox as 40? Will the fox spawn without vain shrouds randomly throughout the day?

He kind of depends on those vain shrouds so I don't know what will happen without them even if he spawns that way

[opal belfry]

It sadly doesn’t seem to work since the fox gets instantly removed if there’s no shrouds

What I’ve done is set vain shroud chance to 100% (for both orbiting the moon and orbiting other moons), set max iterations to 1, and set minimum vain shrouds to 1.

[south vector]

Does that spawn only 1 vain shroud?

[opal belfry]

Should spawn like 2-3 if I remember correctly

You can set it to 0 iterations to only have 1

[south vector]

So 1 iteration spawns 2?

[opal belfry]

That might be wrong and 0 iterations might not work since I haven’t tried it

[opal belfry]

Each iteration spawns 1-2 more vain shrouds with each vain shroud there is.

[south vector]

Well around 4-6 vain shrouds would be fine. It is just annoying to have millions of them blocking sections of the map

[south vector]

Thanks!

[opal belfry]

I’d put 2 or 3 iterations then

That’ll roughly get you 4-6

[south vector]

Gotcha

[placid narwhal]

Do you know why the kidnapper fox doesn't work on modded moons?

it works on rebalancedmoonsbeta

[rustic coyote]

you have to elaborate. what doesn't work about it

[placid narwhal]

The fox stands still inside the vain shrouds, and even if the player is nearby, it will never attack. It's not like the vanilla moons, where the fox will come inside to the ship or get out of the vain shrouds to get the player.

[placid narwhal]

I thought it was a problem with generic moons, but with Wesley moons it's the same thing.

[rustic coyote]

the fox is a coward if you look at it, that might be why

[placid narwhal]

Nope.

modded moons the fox will never do that

or this

[somber turret]

i'd guess that the moons are missing a mold attraction point

[placid narwhal]

the logs show the fox is searching for the most surrounding vain

[somber turret]

i dont really know any other reason why modded moons would be any different

[woeful solar]

rend and dine are missing mold attraction points in vanilla too

[somber turret]

hmm

[somber turret]

is there any errors?

[placid narwhal]

nope

[placid narwhal]

just this

[placid narwhal]

Maybe it is lethallib? Prefab idk.

[amber glacier]

does anyone know what the chances for the vain shrouds/fox spawning are? i went to like 4 different moons

[placid narwhal]

All of Beanie's moons have mold attraction points. If the fox works there, that could be one of the problems.

RebalanceMoons add mold attraction points to Dine and Rend. But Vanilla Rend and Dine the fox works normally too.

[opal belfry]

8% for a moon you’re routed to, and 4% for a moon you’re not routed to

It rolls the chance each time a day passes.

You can change the chance for shrouds growing in the config, and set different chances for every moon if you wish

[amber glacier]

Okay, thank you.

[placid narwhal]

The fox works better in Beanie Moons compared to Generic and Wesley Moons. What's make the fox enter the ship? Looks like it doesn't try to do this on beanie moons.

[stiff vale]

I was also trying to figure out some fox stuff which I'll forward here since I'm not sure any moon dev really knows. I'd have to do more testing but like in my experience it seemed ok on some of my moons, and some vanilla ones, but other vanilla ones like Vow, March, and Adamance the shrouds just refused to grow. Even tried cranking stuff up in the config and still no spread. Maybe I was missing something though. I can't speak for interactions with the ship though. I didn't test that.

[placid narwhal]

Vain shrouds grow fine here

vow, march and adamance too

im talking about fox behavior on modded moons don't match with vanilla moons

[stiff vale]

then why weren't they growing there for me? Maybe I just got really unlucky?

[placid narwhal]

idk, but here it's growing well.

[stiff vale]

back into the testing mines I go 😔

[placid narwhal]

Is there something the moon needs to trigger the behavior to the fox enter into the ship?

[stiff vale]

I think that's all the moon maker has access to.

[placid narwhal]

what is this itemshipanimcontainer?

[stiff vale]

I once had issues with an outdoor braken not being able to go into the ship on one of my moons if someone was watching the monitor because of how one of the AI nodes was placed near the end of the ship with the monitor. It would go to that node because it was closest to the player, then as it snuck around to the side with the door it would be too far from the node and turn back, so it just went up and down the length of the ship. Maybe there's some weird stuff happening with the fox?

[stiff vale]

the item dropship

[placid narwhal]

Interesting. I didn't see the fox even try to enter into the ship on the modded moon i was playing but i will need to play more to see it.

[stiff vale]

Somehow exactly as your notification came through my whole laptop crashed. I’m going to blame you for this.

[placid narwhal]

lol

[stiff vale]

I'm not sure why some modded moons don't work and others do. I was able to get them on March and Vow so I either was unlucky before or maybe using Imperium to disable quota or activate instant landing/takeoff broke it? idk. Still didn't have luck on Adamance though so maybe there's just some quirk with how the shrouds spawn and if the initial ones fail it never tries again.

My leading guess as to the fox works as far as going onto the ship is that it seems it has an "area" around where it nests in the shrouds. It, for me on both vanilla and my moons, would only come out of there so far to follow me, eventually giving up and going back. I don't know how often it is supposed to go onto the ship but the few times I got it to either chase me on or come on by itself it was nested nearby. On March I got it to chase me on and on one of mine it snuck on on its own when I was watching the monitor. So, they definitely CAN work on modded moons, but there may be some quirkiness I don't fully grasp. Now, why it won't move at all for you on some modded moons I have no idea.

[woeful solar]

worth mentioning in case it is impacting your tests

the fox retreats if a certain number of players are watching it

the exact number changes depending on lobby size

but in solo, if you're watching the fox, it is going to be too cowardly to exit its nest

[stiff vale]

I've been trying to look away but have Imperium's freecam going so I can see it, as well as the visualization stuff for the fox on so I can see its pathing and stuff.

[placid narwhal]

All of Beanie's moons have mold attraction points, so the fox didn't just stand completely still like the Generic and Wesley moons.

[placid narwhal]

Is it still like version 55? If all players look at the fox, the fox nest's range will be significantly reduced. If all but one player look at the fox, the range will be slightly reduced.

[rustic coyote]

yeah that's what they were talking about and what changes with player count

[chrome meteor]

Wait so does this work with Wesley’s moons?

[quaint moon]

wtf 😭 I just created a save file and day 2 the weeds were at the side of the ship

[lament hornet]

had the same thing happen lol, was quite funny

happy to see they CAN still be a little oppressive

[woeful solar]

im pretty confident this would be "intended behavior" even if it's not necessarily desirable

i've been pretty thorough with writing the weed code

my guess is that weeds started (whatever your distance is) away from the ship and just immediately started growing in the direction of the ship

it's also possible the weeds grew twice on the first successful tick (the first tick is random between 1 and 2 growths, future ticks are always 1 growth)

[quaint moon]

So I created a saved file, landed on Experimentation and the next day i went to Offense and, with 1.5% chance of growing weeds while not routed on this moon, the RNG created a nest at the side of my ship even through the minimum distance should be 40 units away 😭

this game being unfair is on character fr

[summer basin]

Is there a way to limit how much vain shrouds can spawn?

My plan is to make it so only a patch of vain shrouds can spawn to make it not that invasive and still allow the fox to spawn

[placid narwhal]

Maybe Maximum iterations

[summer basin]

Thats just how many days it will take till more spawn

[opal belfry]

Limit the max iterations to 4 or 5. Then lower the needed amount of vain shrouds for the fox to spawn

[woeful solar]

yes, you limit max iterations

weed growth is all performed clientside and the only variables the host controls (and thus the only ones easily implemented into config) are:

1. iteration count
2. starting position

there is currently no way to control how many weeds are created per iteration

but you can reduce the rate at which iterations increase and cap the maximum iterations at a lower value

[summer basin]

thanks

[placid narwhal]

“Fixed a vanilla issue where the aggressivePosition doesn't get set if the moon has no mold attraction points.” Is this fix only for Rend and Dine moons? Because Beanie Moons has mold attraction points and the fox tries to sneak and get players, the only thing the fox is unable to do is enter inside the ship (the fox even tried to get me inside the ship while she was outside).

[woeful solar]

in vanilla this fix only applies to rend and dine

yes

im not 100% sure what the fix does (1a3 noticed this problem and made the change, but i think the fox still "worked" even before it was made, maybe just not 100% correctly)

if the fox is attacking players inside the ship but not entering the ship, to me that sounds like a navmesh problem

do the same moons also present issues with masked boarding the ship? or dogs? etc

[placid narwhal]

I will test it

[placid narwhal]

It looks like it has problems with navmesh

modded moon/ vanilla moon

solitude same problem

[summer basin]

I left the moon and this is here

The vain shrouds are still there the rain sound stuff are still here as well

[stiff vale]

I feel like something else technically caused this as I don’t think I’ve seen this happen before

[woeful solar]

would need to see a log but this is probably another mod causing an error

[summer basin]

Id have to readd it and break it as i dont have the logs

[blissful gorge]

@woeful solar @somber turret FUCK YOU LMAO (Even though you have nothing to do with this)

Dear god, it's worse than I thought

[woeful solar]

lol yes

someone actually PR'd some config settings into yesfox to let you turn off the shrouds on titan

which is probably worth doing

because titan is so small that you will basically always have shrouds:

1. on the concrete building
2. on the catwalks
3. right next to the ship
   no matter what you do

[blissful gorge]

The vain shrouds on this fuckass moon:

[woeful solar]

basically

[blissful gorge]

😔 This run was never meant to be

[summer basin]

That effect on your screen whats that?

[blissful gorge]

https://thunderstore.io/c/lethal-company/p/Woecust/Immersive_Visor

[summer basin]

Thank you

[rustic coyote]

isn't that super broken

[opal belfry]

It works fine

Allegedly the visor crack sound can rarely loop under some obscure circumstances, but I’ve never had that happen to me.

[placid narwhal]

@somber turret Could you do this here?

I dont know if its possible but it could set an agressiveposition without the need of a mold attraction point

[woeful solar]

it already does this

the mold attraction point just exists for the purposes of telling the weeds in what direction to grow

the weeds start in a random node, and then grow in random directions, but with a gentle inclination towards the moldattractionpoint

if no moldattractionpoint exists they just grow equally in all directions

[lament hornet]

[placid narwhal]

So moldattractionpoint doesn't affect the fox AI?

[woeful solar]

in vanilla there is a bug where the fox doesnt properly set an aggressivePosition if there is no moldAttractionPoint

but 1a3 fixed that like, a year ago

[placid narwhal]

@woeful solar But there's something about Mold Attraction Points that makes the fox work: all 7 Beanies Moons have Mold Attraction Points and the fox is working, and I'm using biggership mod to fix the ship's navmesh issue on those moons. Maybe this fix only applies to the Rend and Dine Moons?

[woeful solar]

the fix applies to all moons

but im not sure why you wouldn't be seeing functional fox AI if the mold attraction point is null

[placid narwhal]

well if 1a3 could add a mold attraction point at runtime on a node close to the ship it would be cool.

[placid narwhal]

For some reason moons updated to v73 make the Kidnapperfox works even without mold attraction points

[stiff vale]

funky fox moments

[lament hornet]

mold man W

[mental beacon]

wooow

[woeful solar]

lol well that's nice i suppose

[blissful gorge]

Is there any way this mod could be host only again (Or at least optionally be host only)

Vanilla players might not see it and have a schizo episode from us dying out of nowhere but we'd still like to deal with the fox on our own

IIrc ever since the fox's networking was remvoed you could still use YesFox on your end, other people jsut wouldn't see either entity (Vain shrouds included)

[woeful solar]

no

it would spam errors for other players

unless zeekerss re-registers the fox it's not gonna work in vanilla

[blissful gorge]

Oh I see