[BETA v0.1.6] LethalModManager https://thunderstore.io/c/lethal-company/p/kyxino/LethalModManager/

[dull hawk]

No reason to use mine yet vs AC until I have lobby syncing.

Which won't be for a while.

[honest kiln]

What LMM functionality will I lose if I disable your lobby features and use AC?

is there anything that just will not work if I'm not on an LMM based lobby

[dull hawk]

Just the resizable lobbies.

Everything is flexible.

[honest kiln]

Don't see an issue then

also I just read this back and I have NO idea why I started talking about AC there lol. I was tired,

[dull hawk]

If you disable LMM's lobby finder, you lose being able to see filtered out lobbies that may be different modpacks or versions, especially if other mods change that filter as well, but LMM should overwrite it.

[dull hawk]

(This is a compatibility thing since you would typically join to download the mods and stuff via mod syncer.)

[dull hawk]

Lol, all good, I was confused as well.

[honest kiln]

does the lobby finder only work if one's also using LMM resizable lobbies?

[dull hawk]

Nope, it's separate.

[honest kiln]

damn I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed

ngl lol

[dull hawk]

Soon, the lobby finder will also be one of the most advanced lobby search solutions, if not the most.

Actually, I should just rename it to LobbySearcher. Lol

Most of its functionalities will come out at full release.

Essentially, LMM is like a full rehaul of the menus at the beginning of the game. Lol

I will list all current and upcoming features that are toggleable.

[honest kiln]

Will we be able to buy that as an e-book?

[dull hawk]

Lol

[dull hawk]

• ModList (Allows you to see all of your mods, but cannot be edited from within the game unless ModManager is enabled.)
• ModManager (It provides you with the ability to manage your mods in game with a Thunderstore search and everything.)
• ModSyncer (When joining an LMM hosted lobby, you will be prompted for all the mods you need to download before joining, then quick restart.)
• LobbySearch (Mostly Full Release - It allows you to apply your own filters for finding lobbies, ESPECIALLY for LMM hosted lobbies.)
• LobbyResizing (Allows you to set your lobby sizes to whatever you want, just don't kill your computer.)
• LobbyLateJoining (Full or Late Release ;P - Allows late joining, along with features that complement LobbySearch.)
• LobbyManager (Unknown - Allows setting up your lobby however you want before starting for some stuff, but if LLJ is enabled, you can set the rest of the stuff at any time, this includes setting your game to public, private, friends only, 16 -> 12 players, maybe even late joining, etc. whenever you want.)
• LobbyAppearance (Idk what to name this, Full or Late Release - Think of it like VRChat, it will allow lobbies to enable whether or not they want nicknames and cosmetics, or even local custom cosmetics, along with users being able to toggle whether or not they want to see it on others, but will also include custom suits and color picking suits, this will all depend on the lobby settings and the players in the game.)
• GameSaves (Full Release - Allows more than 3 slots, renaming, and tells you what mods were played on that save so that you can not worry about corrupting/losing stuff.)

Everything is able to be enabled and disabled, some can do so at runtime, but yeah, not sure if I'm missing anything.
This might seem too ambitious for some, but mind that I already have most of the hardest parts done, only thing left before me beta releasing is the actual mod managing functionality because originally it was intended to release at full release.

I pretty much have part of the code to do everything listed other than the late joining rn.

The ModManager one is a bit broad, but will soon include config editing from within the game, right now it will only be a simple enable/disable for mod syncing, unfortunately.

[dull hawk]

E

[honest kiln]

Not sure if you have perms, but this is probably worth pinning

[dull hawk]

I don't, Discord doesn't have such a feature for some reason.

[dull hawk]

@leaden lily, hey, can you also pin this for me? It's a better overview of LMM since the last one. Thanks.

[dull hawk]

Thanks!

Anyway, I got 9-10 hours of sleep today, so I feel a lot better.

[hasty fog]

what is lobby syncing

[dull hawk]

Late joining.

For it syncing properly.

[hasty fog]

oh, i see

anyway i will definitely be switching to your lobbies when this comes out, just a bummer about the cosmetics

[dull hawk]

Yeah, well I hope to get cosmetics working properly soon.

[dull hawk]

CRAP, BAD STORM, I MIGHT BE LOSING POWER>

Alright, cool, made sure everything is saved, and I have things backed up to Github as well.

[finite herald]

Sucks when that happens

[dull hawk]

My dad mentioned that we probably would while we are playing on the SNES Classic Mini that he just got, and I'm like: "OH CRAP" and shot straight downstairs to make sure things were backed up. I have TOO much work that I couldn't bare to lose.

[sage socket]

Worst case scenario either you or someone else can just make a separate mod to make cosmetics work

[finite herald]

Real

[sage socket]

I don't see cosmetics being built in a high priority

[finite herald]

Used to lose power a lot when I lived up north

[oblique marten]

would it be possible to make MoreCompany handle cosmetics but disable its player count patches?

there are already two cosmetics implementations I know of, adding another just means that people (I) have to support that one too

[dull hawk]

Yeah, I wished MC had already done that by default.

Or even made it into an API.

[dull hawk]

It really isn't, that's why I'm handling it later.

[dull hawk]

Jeez, yeah, it's pretty random when we lose power, the storm is gone, but we could end up losing power sometime later, which makes no sense, but it's common after a really bad storm.

[dull hawk]

Not exactly, I already do that for my lobby defilterer, but I can't really do it for the cosmetics.

[dull hawk]

Two implementations?

[oblique marten]

MoreCompany and AdvancedCompany

the reason it matters to me is that I have to collect cosmetics' models from both mods to show/hide them when changing perspective in OpenBodyCams, and the more mods that create cosmetics the more I have to add soft dependencies on

[dull hawk]

Can't you just detect them by checking through the dependents to see if they have meshes from an external source?

[oblique marten]

dependents as in children? I don't know for sure, but even if I do, I need to detect when they change, and iterating over every child of the player every frame just isn't viable

(unless you like dropping fps by 20%)

[dull hawk]

Yes, as in children and their children and so on.

[dull hawk]

Just do proper optimizations.

[oblique marten]

??

[dull hawk]

If you do a few basic ones, it is almost completely fine.

Like child count growing.

[oblique marten]

how would it be fine to recurse two players' trees every frame? unless you're suggesting I hook into some Unity functions to detect when they're added, which seems like it would get pretty messy

[dull hawk]

You wouldn't recurse if it never changed.

[oblique marten]

does Unity keep a recursive count of children?

[dull hawk]

I forgot the exact thing I had, but with a certain method, yes.

[oblique marten]

and what if the children change, but the count stays the same?

[dull hawk]

I accidentally used it when working on my resizable lobbies.

[dull hawk]

Just check to see if they do, they shouldn't be forcing itself to keep showing or hiding.

[oblique marten]

so..we're back to recursing the children then

[dull hawk]

Oh, sorry, not what I meant.

I completely blanked out on that one.

I got Karate, but I can see if I can help you out after.

[oblique marten]

you meant a different method of checking if they change?

hmm all right

[dull hawk]

That as well.

Got to go.

[oblique marten]

I'm curious if there's a better method

no worries

[dull hawk]

Honestly, it would be better if the cosmetics were just handled better instead of people like you having to figure out some crazy method to make it work well with your mod.

If they could make like an empty GameObject that held all of the cosmetics, it would be a lot easier.

... and just make more sense.

[oblique marten]

true, but getting everyone to conform to a standard like that would be quite difficult

although it's worth noting that for what I do, SetActive() doesn't work

[dull hawk]

Well, it's what I'll be doing, I'm just surprised it isn't already done, it's what I do in game development.

It's also quite literally already done in this game for some of its systems.

[oblique marten]

yeah, it's much more organized

anyway, it's not a huge deal to add support for another type of cosmetic, it's just not preferable

[dull hawk]

Well, I'd make it easier on you.

[oblique marten]

I'm sure you have features you'd like to have for that so it makes sense you would want to implement it yourself

[dull hawk]

Yeah, especially since I'd be handling cosmetics kind of like how VRChat handles theirs.

Basically, LMM is like Garry's Mod and VRChat's systems combined into a mod for Lethal Company.

[oblique marten]

unfortunately I haven't played either, but I can imagine they must give a lot of freedom considering what little I've seen

[dull hawk]

Well, in cases, yes, Garry's Mod is a little iffy because when you join a lobby, it just starts downloading every single mod regardless of whether you want it or not.

I actually inform you of the mods, and allow you to choose whether or not you want them (and which if the host allows you to choose), or if you just want to not join.

[oblique marten]

yeah, with it executing such privileged code, it needs to do that

[dull hawk]

VRChat (from what I can remember) is a bit of the same when it comes to them loading custom characters, but everybody at least has the ability to change their settings to either hide it or maybe even not download it, but I'm not sure of that last part.

[dull hawk]

The good thing is that it is Lua code, so it won't get you that far, as long as Garry's Mod has a proper environment blocked off from outside stuff.

So it makes more sense for me to actually inform you first, since yeah, it's C#, and no custom environment to protect you. Lol

So while LMM handles that better than Garry's Mod, at the same time, it isn't needed for them as it is for this. Lol

Just annoying when you are stuck downloading hundreds of mods.

[dull hawk]

Well, never really a good idea to use SetActive anyway, so I'm glad you don't, good use of Layers though.

[oblique marten]

initially I was using forceRenderingOff, but I discovered that other mods were moving things to the invisible enemies layer lol

[dull hawk]

Ah, I see.

[oblique marten]

the nice thing about forceRenderingOff is that nobody uses it, I wouldn't have had to keep the previous state if I could use that

[dull hawk]

Yeah.

Well, luckily not many mods change layers in the first place, so it's not like collision is common.

(or at least I'd hope not many use them, I wouldn't see much reason for mods to do so other than an initial layer being set)

[oblique marten]

yeah, I don't think any that move things into the invis enemies layer do it multiple times, so I could have probably cached those values

I chose to do it the safer way to ensure compatibility, it probably doesn't cost too much

[dull hawk]

Nice.

I love how MC says they are about keeping stability and polish as compared to another mod (aka BiggerLobby), meanwhile breaks other mods in the process. I will say, at least they don't use LC_API. Lol

It's a shame that BiggerLobby had stopped development though.

wait

WOAH

THEY GOT AN UPDATE?

they are still using LC_API...

[oblique marten]

yeah, I've had some issues with MC lately as well, although probably not as bad as some people have

that's part of why I'm keeping an eye on this, it would be nice to have an alternative

would you consider open-sourcing it?

[dull hawk]

Yeah, BL and AC are the only ones that do it right, but BL uses LC_API and AC has a lot of other stuff where it would just be better to make sure you form around AC before adding a bunch of other mods. Lol

[dull hawk]

So here is a bit of the mental dilemma with it, everything else would be perfectly fine like the resizable lobbies and stuff, but the actual mod syncing part is something I don't want getting forked for security reasons.

[oblique marten]

to avoid people trying to find ways to sneak mods onto others' systems?

[dull hawk]

If somebody decides to try to fork it and do stuff better somehow, like making it faster or something, it could very well jeopardize the security of its users.

[dull hawk]

Somewhat, but not really.

[oblique marten]

like skipping checks?

that doesn't seem like that big a concern considering the scope of the mod, but I can't say I know for sure

I feel like it would be daunting for someone to try to fork and compete rather than just contributing

[dull hawk]

So I don't really have to do many checks, it's just more of the way I do things, it isn't the best, but it's the best I can do for now due to security concerns with users.

Damon is actually working on something that will help LMM greatly, so once that happens, mod syncing will be a lot faster for downloading mods on the fly, but right now it is slow because I have to download mods directly from Thunderstore one at a time, but there is a way to download all of it WAY faster, it just isn't secure.

[oblique marten]

ahh, I see

[dull hawk]

So if somebody wanted to do such, and didn't really care or notice how unsafe it is, that could be bad.

[dull hawk]

Yeah, it would.

I have things as best as I can currently do them.

but I do want to try to make it better.

[oblique marten]

seem to me that if you're able to solve the slowness to some extent that wouldn't be so much of a problem

[dull hawk]

Well, that's why I'm doing a lot of caching.

That way, after a while, you soon have all of the most common mods.

[oblique marten]

right

but as far as like downloading a packaged set of mods and comparing each to a checksum, you don't see that as viable? or is that similar to what you're mentioning Damon (sorry I don't know them) working on?

I assume the unsafe approach is something to do with packing mods

[dull hawk]

Pretty much, yeah.

Basically, I could pack all of the mods up from the host, and send them to the people joining.

With compression, it would be so much faster.

[oblique marten]

right, I see why you would be concerned about security then

[dull hawk]

Yeah.

[oblique marten]

the current solution is to download a mod list and configs and then go straight to Thunderstore download URLs?

[dull hawk]

I did think of using hashes, but I never looked into it enough, admittedly. The other thing is that anything could get wrongly flagged if any file that I wouldn't expect to be changed was for some reason changed. Anyway, yeah, Damon is working on an API that would allow me to request a batch of mods for me to download, and it would pull from his cache (or directly from Thunderstore if it wasn't cached).

[dull hawk]

You got that spot on the money. Lol

It's quite literally downloading the mod list and configs first.

Along with the host's settings for what is required, preferred, and optional.

Problem with the whole config situation is that not all configs are properly linked to their mods, so that just needs to be included by default, but can be set to R/P/O.

Another security concern is figuring out HOW it downloads that. Lol

I will not be publicly speaking on that.

[oblique marten]

fair enough lol

and yeah, I suppose hashing would require some kind of whitelist of file types, which could be prone to flaws considering the freedom that mods have to load arbitrary data as code

[dull hawk]

Yeah, and even then, it would also make it easier for malicious lobby hosts to hijack.

... or even malicious mods that the host might have.

[oblique marten]

yep

definitely downloading from a known source for this seems far less likely to expose people to danger

can still have malicious code on the store, but at least it has malware scans and decompiled code

[dull hawk]

Yeah, that's why I'm dedicating so much of my time to get this done, it's a big security concern for an arrogant/lazy developer to handle this instead.

[oblique marten]

I can definitely see that yeah

[dull hawk]

I've gone through so much source code of the game that I at least have the ability to see most of its flaws.

(Mainly thanks to me working on a utility mod that allows people to modify all kinds of parts of the game. Lol)

[dull hawk]

Yeah, even though Thunderstore isn't the most secure, it's more secure than direct.

ESPECIALLY because I tell you everything about the mod.

Test from a few days ago.

You see the mod's icon, name, latest version, creator, downloads, dependents (like modpacks), likes, dependencies, size, description, last updated, created, and tags (but that's not there in that pic).

Along with the direct Thunderstore listing for more.

There's almost no info left out.

I even have settings that will be coming out some time later to change how those dependents are calculated.

(If they were/still/accumulating dependent on the latest or any version of the mod.)

I hope that if anybody else has been reading this, you understand why this has been taking a while, this might even be one of the biggest (and sensitive) things I've worked on, even though I'm an actual game developer for 8-9 years. It's easier doing something like this for your own game, but working around the source code is much different.

I also have a habit of holding something back until I make it look really nice. LOL

[dull hawk]

I literally have improved the UI quite a bit since then.

[oblique marten]

that info certainly will be valuable

[dull hawk]

Yeah, the best security will be your own judgement.

... and the Thunderstore Janitors. Lol

but yeah, personal judgement goes a long way.

Anyway, today I was quite lazy, mainly was hanging out with my dad. Tomorrow I will be able to work on it more than I thought I would, and since I will be getting more sleep again, I'll be up early to work on it some more. Typically when I wake up early or go to sleep late, I can get a lot done, only thing is that my brain crashes much faster if I go to sleep late. I probably could have gotten it done today, but it would be better for me to finish it, and then release it when I still have time after to fix any bugs quickly, since if I had released it today, I would be gone most of tomorrow.
Based on that, I'd say sometime Sunday morning (for USA) if I don't make the config selection too specific for mod syncing yet.

I definitely needed the break from my computer though. Lol

[dull hawk]

(Quite ironic how I said this, and then I just said I was lazy today, haha, there's a difference, dw.)

[surreal cove]

family comes first

[dull hawk]

It was also just good to get off of the computer for a bit.

[sonic kettle]

🌄

[surreal cove]

yep

[dull hawk]

That is the opposite of what I need right now.

I feel like I've been punched in the nose extremely hard, and the light is killing me.

[sonic kettle]

🌃

[dull hawk]

Much better. Lol

[sonic kettle]

lol

[dull hawk]

I hate taking medicine, but I got to take something, and then I am working on LMM to finally finish it.

I just realized, I have a lot to type about LMM.

For the Thunderstore page.

I think that will be the hardest/longest part today. LOL

[surreal cove]

lol

sometimes I feel you, like I finish writing my essay or finishing my work, but the hard part is taking 30 pictures of my assignment for every page lmao

btw will LMM help with load times

[dull hawk]

Load times for what?

[dull hawk]

Yeah, I can get an essay done really quickly, but the teachers would somehow make things take longer by making us do something stupid.

[dull hawk]

If you mean with loading mods at the beginning of the game being opened, that's BepInEx, I can't do anything about it.

If you mean when it comes to showing mods and adding them and stuff, yes.

[surreal cove]

oh ok, I mean like when you are loading r2modman, and there is the black console.

also will LMM have profiles

[dull hawk]

Yes, but that will have to be full release.

[surreal cove]

oh ok

but could I just use r2modman/tmm, and create different profiles with the only mod being lmm?

[dull hawk]

Yep.

[surreal cove]

alr bet, thx

[dull hawk]

No problem.

[surreal cove]

in my csp class, we need to code apps, and we have to do project guides with them, and I am just so lazy to do them. the coding part is easier lmao

[dull hawk]

Haha, yeah.

Well, the problem with me having to type about LMM is that there is a lot of stuff both done and planned, ESPECIALLY planned.

I have to try to remember everything.

[surreal cove]

oh yea I feel that

thats where project guides are useful 🤣

[dull hawk]

Yeah. Lol

[tropic gull]

Yooo is it actually coming out today?

[dull hawk]

Hopefully, grinding it out.

If not today, it should most definitely be tomorrow, but bottom line is, this is ready.

[tropic gull]

helll yeahhh look forward to it!!

[dull hawk]

Some things will need live testing as I can't test the stability of everything myself, so some features may not completely work, but the mod managing definitely should.

[tropic gull]

as we all should be reporting if there's anything, we'll be here to help ;)

[dull hawk]

Which will be very important. Lol

[tepid rampart]

so is it suggested to use this alongside r2modman or in place of it?

[dull hawk]

Until I finish LMM's UI, alongside.

[tropic gull]

supposedly not a replacement, but use this to sync along with the others better (at least for the current version)

[dull hawk]

Well, no, it aims to be a replacement, just not fully viable yet.

For example, I will have profiles already done (because I need to for mod sync/quick load), but it doesn't have a UI done, so I can't really release the ability for users to switch it in-game.

[tropic gull]

yeah thats what I meant with the current version 😅 cause it wiill be a replacement at the full version

[dull hawk]

Ah, yeah.

[surreal cove]

hows progress

[dull hawk]

I'm able to finish the mod manager by tonight, but mod syncing won't be done until tomorrow likely, which means beta release tomorrow.

Mainly because there is a bit extra planning that I realized I need to handle with mod syncing.

(Just some challenges to do with it being an in-game mod manager, and being properly compatible with TSMM/r2mm.)

[dull hawk]

Just how it would auto assign mod priorities for people to download, it's based on their the highest priority categorical tag.

[Auto R/P/O Mod Sync Logic]

Required (Typically stuff that would break the person's experience completely if they don't have it.):

• Client-side
• Equipment
• Items
• Monsters
• Moons
• Furniture

Preferred (Sure, synchronization will break for some stuff, but if they don't want a million suits or sounds, they can just deselect it.):

• Suits
• Audio
• Boombox Music
• TV Videos
• Posters
• Cosmetics
• Asset Replacements
• Emotes

Optional (More personal things.):

• Translations (If this is on any mod, I'll force it to stay optional as it should not be doing anything that would affect others. This is mainly because a lot of the above tags are shown on translation mods.)

Unknown (or meaningless tags, might just have it discard and set to Preferred.):

• BepInEx, MelonLoader, Mods, Tools, Libraries, Modpacks, Misc, Server-side (Server is the host, meaning others wouldn't have to download unless also client-side.)

[surreal cove]

nice

[dull hawk]

Honestly, on the chance that mod syncing can't come out tomorrow and there is another issue, should I just beta release with the mod manager? Resizable lobbies will also be included, but disabled by default so that people could test it out for me, I've done LAN testing by myself, but not with 4+ real players.

I could also update the page with all of the plans and everything.

[surreal cove]

what is exaclty is mod syncing

im stil cofnused

[dull hawk]

When you join a lobby that is hosted by someone with LMM, it means that you can be prompted with the mods to download that the host has.

[surreal cove]

id say wait release it when mod syncing comes out

[dull hawk]

Yeah, the mod manager isn't even a full replacement over TMM/r2mm yet anyway.

[surreal cove]

yea and arguabally, mod syncing sounds like the best feature

[dull hawk]

Exactly. Lol

It was supposed to be the only feature for beta initially.

[tropic gull]

id say the mod manager itself isn't the priority for me at least, the mod syncing is the most important ones 🙏 so would love to have hands on that first

[surreal cove]

dont get me wrong, the mod manager is still amazing to have, but it will go hand in hand with mod syncing

[dull hawk]

Yeah, I know, but mod managers are nothing new, so it's not like it would be the best feature.

Soon I plan for it to be a lot better though.

[surreal cove]

bet

[hasty fog]

if you're ready to launch tomorrow sans mod syncing i dont see why you shouldn't. less pressure, but i also understand if you wanna delay until the beta is complete

in any case i hope you're able to finish it up tomorrow

[haughty pagoda]

Would this allow for editing configs and having the changes apply without closing the game?

Just as a side feature

Or does the game still have to be reloaded after a lobby's mods are downloaded

[hasty fog]

yes that is a planned feature'

[haughty pagoda]

awesome

[dull hawk]

Yeah, I just want it to be a smooth launch, even if it is just beta.

Also, I just added options for downloading mods to profiles. I might be able to get profiles done.

[steep axle]

Can't wait for the mod syncing. would make it far easier to join my freinds and have far less issues

[dull hawk]

Noticed loading times were actually affected, so I changed some stuff around and now it loads instantly again.

[surreal cove]

wait loading times are faster than tmm r2?

[surreal cove]

ok thats great

[dull hawk]

They've been faster, but then I realized something started slowing it down, so I fixed it. Lol

It's a LOT faster.

Especially for browsing mods on Thunderstore.

(and you see more data)

I just reworked the logo, but now it looks like McDonald's because of LC's color palette. Lol

[hasty fog]

is the plan still to get this out by EOD? or are you pushing it back

[dull hawk]

That's the plan, but I still got a lot to type for just the release, it also depends on your timezone.

Only a few hinderances I came across today.

(aka the slow down)

[hasty fog]

alright cool, really excited to get to use this and tbh its inspiring seeing you so close to putting out such an ambitious project

[dull hawk]

Yeah, still trying to get this out today, but then I get stuck in the loop of being able to add an additional thing that takes a bit longer. Lol

For example: I'm so close to being able to add profiles, but if I do, that would probably push it just over the edge.

Partially why I'm just getting all of the publishing things done so that I can see if I'll have the time.

[hasty fog]

good luck lol

[dull hawk]

Haha, thanks.

[surreal cove]

do you think we still will be pushing it out today?

[surreal cove]

btw for loading times, i mean loading into the game, not download mods

we need to also hit the mods of the server, to put it in the main section with tmm/r2modman are

everyone should be using this, especially for syncing and performance

so because this syncs everything, general bugs in modded will now be fixed right?

[dull hawk]

Hopefully, but it also depends on your timezone if it would be out today for you.

[dull hawk]

Ah, well that as well.

[dull hawk]

Oh, right, yeah.

[dull hawk]

Indeed, just not exactly yet unless you want it pushed back another few days to be a bit more finished enough for that. Lol

[dull hawk]

Pretty much, yeah.

[steep axle]

funny icons

[dull hawk]

Nah, this is LMM's new logo.

wait whoops, wrong one

(just ignore the name)

[steep axle]

swag

[dull hawk]

Probably the worst logo I've made, ngl, but then again, I put that together in a few minutes, most of the time was just aligning things properly. Lol

[steep axle]

Simple logos are the best ones ngl

[dull hawk]

Oh, I'm good at simple logos, this one was just low effort.

Not just a "simple logo".

Upon full release, I'll probably update it again.

Maybe even before.

[steep axle]

decided to make more lol

[dull hawk]

I actually am working on one similar.

[steep axle]

Swaggy

[dull hawk]

I have an issue where once something bothers me too much, I have to deal with it, which is actually the reason it was delayed an extra week because I added resizable lobbies due to MC not being the most ideal.

[steep axle]

Have not played more company much

[dull hawk]

Not the best compatibility with mods, I'll just say.

Heck, even the game when it updates, if it updates an enemy or whatever.

BL does it better, but they use LC_API.

[steep axle]

quite a lot of mods I've seen use LC_API what is the drawback with it

[dull hawk]

LC_API has the tendency to break mods. LOL

It's quite ironic.

[steep axle]

Isnt it intended to make modding easier?

[dull hawk]

That's why it is ironic.

Also, unless their API is better now, it was practically a 1:1 wrapper to the original stuff, it would be better for them to just document it. Lol

The main thing that was intended by it was to have all mods rely on it so that people don't join vanilla lobbies and cause issues.

but there wasn't much need for the API, people just copied what it was wrapping to achieve what they needed, and gradually moved away from it.

[steep axle]

Someone once told me its possible for control company to work when your not host. Ive never seen it happen

[dull hawk]

I wouldn't know, I'd have to check the code.

[steep axle]

are alot of mods intententionaly designed not to be able to work when your not host

[dull hawk]

Yep, as they should.

[steep axle]

weeee got ejected

[dull hawk]

Lol

Alright, yeah, it's seemingly likely that it won't be today. I keep getting distracted.

Either way, there is literally barely anything else for me to get distracted on, I've done so much extra work that was never originally planned to be apart of beta that this is practically like the originally planned full release.

This is the same dilemma I had with LethalUtilities and me adding a bunch of features in batches.

[dull hawk]

oh crap

I think I just realized another issue.

If people only use TMM/r2mm and never the vanilla directory for modding, LMM won't exactly work properly with quick reloading.

Dang itttttt

Even though I could just tell people to manually download it and put everything in the main directory, there will still be a lot of those people, especially if this gets really big.

New logo. (No, this is not a rebrand of the mod, it is still LethalModManager, which is why the C is almost not visible. It's kind of the same dilemma with TMM/r2mm where they either go by TMM/rmm or TSMM/r2mm honestly.)

It's just a simple logo with the same font that LC uses.

[dull hawk]

Anyway, I know how to handle this issue, just did some testing.

[surreal cove]

lets go

[surreal cove]

this one looks good, its clean

[surreal cove]

all good

[dull hawk]

Oh, cool, I found the original.

(The number at the bottom right is wrong.)

There we go.

[surreal cove]

wait modsync is out?

oh thats 3 months old and is dead

[dull hawk]

Yeah.

I told him about what he could've done instead, but understood that he was done with LC modding.

... and now this has turned into something much bigger. Lol

[west surge]

I think it's possible you maybe suggested improvements on modsync at the same time i suggested improvements on introtweaks 😔

[surreal cove]

now your taking over 😎

[west surge]

might not have been great timing on accident

[dull hawk]

Eh, idk, I told him about it probably 2 months ago today.

2 months ago yesterday, actually.

Just checked. Lol

[dull hawk]

Yep.

Originally, I was only going to work on a config syncing API.

Well, not even an API, it would just work without other mods having to do anything.

Then I came across Minx's mod sync (which was deprecated) when trying to check to see if anybody was already working on it, now I've basically incorporated the two into one.

[surreal cove]

best desicsion ever

this could be one of the biggest mods

[dull hawk]

It's funny to think about because I had gotten into modding for the first time like 2 and a half months ago. Lol

Pretty funny size difference.

I bet it is funnier when compared to TMM.

Not that it even really matters BECAUSE OF THIS FILE.

[surreal cove]

damn

but does size really matter ( not in a dirty minded way)

[dull hawk]

If somebody is running with a few GBs left in their Steam directory, sure. Lol

[surreal cove]

well deosent really matter to me

[dull hawk]

I'll allow external directories eventually.

Yeah, well it used to be a problem for me.

[surreal cove]

so currently, will the mod require manually downloading

oh is that external directiories?

[dull hawk]

Hm?

[dull hawk]

Nope, I'm making it where you don't have to.

[surreal cove]

nvm

[surreal cove]

bet

so in terms of performance and stuff

1. Performance will be better in game
2. Downloads mods faster, UI is faster
3. Load time into game is faster
   ?
   correct me if im wrong

[dull hawk]

The first two, yes. As for the third, it isn't any different compared to TMM/r2mm, that's just BepInEx. (At least I'd hope it wouldn't be any different?)

[surreal cove]

bet, and by how much is performance better in game
is it only like a 5 fps differece, or like 20. Or does it just optimize the game more

[dull hawk]

Not like that, I don't mean it improves the performance of the actual game, I'm just saying that it has faster performance than TMM/r2mm.

[surreal cove]

ohh

I mean it could maybe help performance by optimizing stuff right
cause now everything will be synced and stuff

[dull hawk]

Yeah, improving the game's performance is outside of my domain, LMM has no relativity to such.

[dull hawk]

I mean, possibly?

[surreal cove]

we will see

[dull hawk]

Compared to other methods, it could be.

[surreal cove]

I really go hope zeekers makes a optimization update

[dull hawk]

Trust me, we all do.

[surreal cove]

I want it more than new content tbh
I already have mods for that
but mods unoptomize my game

[dull hawk]

If I get in contact with Zeekerss, I'll ask them if they could do a few things that could help modders, but I'm sure others bigger than me have already tried. I'm just a random dude with 500k+ total downloads. Lol

[surreal cove]

I really want to make my pack more stable but idk how, sometimes peoples game crashes, freezes, desync issues. LMM will def help with that, but performance is so unconsitent on certain moons

[dull hawk]

Yeah.

[surreal cove]

yea but if LMM gets big, it might grab zeekers attention

[west surge]

what kind of stuff?

[dull hawk]

I'd hope so.

[surreal cove]

you dont need to answer this question if it's offensive, but lets say zeekers does give you an oppurtinity to let him buy ur manager, would you accept
sorry if it is a rude question

[dull hawk]

Well, a lot of quick edits for things like resizable lobbies, replacing the constants with the player array length instead like a lot of the others already have, along with more built-in methods for such, it benefits everybody due to stability reasons, especially for updates. Some basic modded lobby checks through vanilla code (it's very easy to filter a MAJORITY of it), ridding a lot of redundant code/variables (I've come across a lot of them while working on LethalUtilities). Those are just some things I've recently come across that could be easily addressed with a few minutes of time. I don't remember as much since I haven't worked on LethalUtilities in a long time, and that's when I typically found a lot of annoyances.

[west surge]

https://discord.com/channels/1168655651455639582/1202737078903775262

if you havent seen

[dull hawk]

I wouldn't be sure unless the offer came up as I would like the quality to stay consistent, and this as it is isn't a quick and easy thing for one developer to handle, especially if they have a lot of other stuff to handle. A collaboration would be nice, but I'm not so sure about an outright purchase.

[dull hawk]

Ah, nice.

OH RIGHT

THE AUDIOMIXER IS ANNOYING

(and makes no sense how it currently is rn)

[surreal cove]

your right
he will hire you 🔥

[dull hawk]

Well, it does make sense, but it can be easily handled better.

[west surge]

No offence but realistically I’d assume he would just go with steam workshop if he was pursuing official support (not to say thats a overall better option)

[dull hawk]

Considering how the game is, especially its player base, that's the main way it will stay active is through mods. Such an extensive tool like LMM will definitely help bring back more attention, but ultimately, he will need to have better mod support.

[surreal cove]

fs

[dull hawk]

Yeah, that too.

[surreal cove]

does steam workshop allow for profiles

I also found it to be really slow :/

[west surge]

yes

[surreal cove]

oh nice

or he could do what tmodloader did with terarria

where you can download LMM as an app on steam

[west surge]

well no

LMM is just a mod manager

TML being a mod manager is a very small aspect of it overall

[surreal cove]

hmm

[dull hawk]

Yeah, TModLoader is also a mod loader. Lol

So basically it is like BepInEx.

(a gross oversimplification, but yeah)

[surreal cove]

oh

[west surge]

TML is like BepinEx + LethalLib + LLL and more

• LMM

[surreal cove]

so like the ultimate library mod?

[dull hawk]

Yes.

[surreal cove]

oh I c now

[dull hawk]

I wouldn't mind making an API in Lethal Company for modders though.

[surreal cove]

but zeekers def needs to just add more modding tools, since now that he is a millionare I doubt he really wants to work on the game that much more. But maybe he does.

[dull hawk]

Nah, he does, he is just trying to put out bigger updates each time.

[west surge]

theres not much he really needs to do in terms of hard limitations we face

[dull hawk]

Yeah, it really isn't much.

[surreal cove]

I mean not really related to modded, but just optimize the game for framerate

[dull hawk]

Yeah, definitely.

The fact that you could run GTA V before being able to run LC is hysterical.

(Granted, Unity adds a lot of bloat, but still.)

[hasty fog]

i can't believe something like cullfactory had to be implemented in a mod

[surreal cove]

everyday I get bullied by bard and chat gpt when running at 15 fps when im playing on the laptop. They are only nice to me when im plaing on the pc

[surreal cove]

lol

[west surge]

I mean sure but also for a bulk of people it wasn't really a problem

[dull hawk]

Yeah, that as well.

[hasty fog]

i suppose so, but like, culling stuff that isn't visible is like the most basic optimization technique

[west surge]

no

it's a simple one, at least in theory

[surreal cove]

I really need it
when ever I run lll interiors on Lecore moons, the framerate def dips

[west surge]

in implementation it can harder than it sounds

[west surge]

custom moons in general will be a lot more optimized in the future

[dull hawk]

For a game like Lethal Company, at least it is easy to hide defects from culling. Lol (everything is dark)

[surreal cove]

yea, zingars moons run really well for me
wesleys moons on the other hand is pretty bad for me

[hasty fog]

well yeah, but the idea is pretty fundamentally simple

[west surge]

sure but like

thats useless info

respectfully

doing it in practice is what is relevant

[oblique marten]

culling is only really important on a big interior like titan

[hasty fog]

it's definitely easier to implement when you're the dev of the game and not a modder, that's for sure

[west surge]

not really

[oblique marten]

at least when we're talking about interiors

[hasty fog]

depends on your specs

[surreal cove]

yea ig, I just wanted to say how its laggier.

[west surge]

oh i wasnt talking to you dw

[surreal cove]

it helps a lot with mental hospital and etern

[surreal cove]

oh lol mb

[oblique marten]

I mean out of the vanilla maps

[west surge]

x time spent getting dungeon culling flawlessly working is x time that can be spent elsewhere

a lot of problems in the basegame are a lot easier to judge when you have infinite time budget to fix it

[oblique marten]

ye, plus the interiors weren't that big until titan (and I guess march to some extent, but that is less of an issue)

[dull hawk]

Modders essentially work with/around/against source code. Zeekerss works in source code. In the end, the main thing that is annoying for modders is other mods affecting what you do, so it's not that bad.

New Update

[west surge]

yup, theres very little hard limitations between what zeekers can do and what we cant

[dull hawk]

https://tenor.com/view/black-hell-no-crazy-confused-gif-10844795171417297413

[oblique marten]

tbh portal occlusion culling was way easier to implement than I thought it would be

[west surge]

oh forsure but just in general yknow

[oblique marten]

yeah, I don't disagree that that's probably the reason

[west surge]

i really want to have time to mess with dungeon optimisation

[oblique marten]

but it may be that zeekers didn't know that it was such an easy option

[west surge]

i wanna make flying to titan seamless

[oblique marten]

oh the loading? hell yea

also gotta get mismatched door sizes working poke poke

[dull hawk]

Funny enough, the delay between planets is programmed in.

[west surge]

yes and no

[dull hawk]

Other than the loading seed screen.

[west surge]

that programmed in delay only exists (not justifying it) to give time for stuff to load in

in theory its not neccasary / not the actual problem

[hasty fog]

i imagine optimization wasn't really on his mind much, coming off of roblox and a few other small unity games

like batby said more important stuff to be done

[west surge]

everything is a balance

[dull hawk]

No, it's literally just the time to arrive, I think he is planning on something bigger with it. (He has code in place for different times on different planets and stuff already.)

[oblique marten]

yeah exactly, if you're not researching it you would have no idea if it's a giant time sink or not

I also thought it would be

[west surge]

yes im aware, its a safeguard/fluff text

[hasty fog]

in one of his early dev logs for the game he was experimenting with more realistic sound physics but it made the game chug to 30fps lmao

[dull hawk]

Fluff text? I'm not talking about the loading seed screen if that's what you think I'm referring to?

[west surge]

i know your not

[dull hawk]

Ah.

[west surge]

the LOADING.... hardcoded wait is in a coroutine that runs at the same time as the async scene loading

[dull hawk]

Haha... his code is interesting... (I'm a Roblox developer, and typically have to fix and optimize Lua code from other developers a lot.)

[west surge]

most of his code is pretty fine i think, espically some of the seemingly more recent stuff

SelectableLevel as a whole is handled pretty well imo. think a lot of the sinning in the codebase is old code thats yet to be refactored to things he hasn't used to much yet (events, properties etc.)

[dull hawk]

I'm not sure if that is the same thing that I'm talking about, it has no indicator, it's just the time between inputting the planet and flipping the lever.

[dull hawk]

I'll just say this: even before knowing he was a Roblox developer, I could tell he is a Roblox developer.

[hasty fog]

everyone's gotta start somewhere

[dull hawk]

Yes, but not what I'm hinting to.

Mind that I said I optimized a lot of Roblox dev code. (Mainly a while back, not as much anymore.)

I've seen all kinds of methods.

If they were good, I wouldn't have to optimize them.

Then again, I'm an optimization freak.

[dull hawk]

JEEZ.

[oblique marten]

I think it's fair to say development would be a lot less far along had he focused on optimized code the whole way

[west surge]

send me

[oblique marten]

that said, there are definitely some methods that do some overly complex things called during updates

[hasty fog]

oh for sure

at some point you just have to throw in the towel and say "if it works, it works"

[oblique marten]

not so much say if it works leave it, but get things working so you have a place to start optimizing from later

I think the code is structured in a way that it's not too difficult to optimize

at least the parts I've looked closest at

[dull hawk]

It's mainly just reliant on their experience at that point, some of this stuff curves off way too much.

[oblique marten]

yeah, more experience means you can make the right decisions earlier with less of a penalty

it's all a balance and if you're inexperienced obviously you'll learn a lot and have to go back later

[dull hawk]

It's even better when you get a lot more experienced DURING a project. LOL

[hasty fog]

i feel like a lot of stuff is that way because LC was never intended to be a super big thing with a whole roadmap of updates and a lively modding community. but obviously that's exactly what ended up happening

[sage socket]

Hopefully that new Unity TOS isn't biting him in the ass

[dull hawk]

Yeah, he was still in the process of learning Unity and C#.

[west surge]

its not relevant whatsoever

[sage socket]

Cool

[oblique marten]

yeah, I think if you'd asked zeekers, the game definitely wasn't ready for prime time

but what happened happened so now there are hundreds of people examining every part of their code lol

there's a lot that could've been done better obviously, but for an inexperienced solo developer I think it's better than I would've expected

[dull hawk]

Definitely.

Glad to see that they are still working on it though.

[hasty fog]

yeah, and a lot of their time is understandably now taken up by making new stuff and squashing bugs to try and keep the game alive

[dull hawk]

Man, this is always fun to do. Lol

ALL THE MODS

Anyway.

[tropic gull]

Talking about the dev, being in their position to think that their updates might break the whole mods or whatever seems like a huge burden 🫠

[dull hawk]

Man, if I helped him, I would end up breaking so many mods. LOL

[tropic gull]

Yooo what's the progress on this mod syncer btw 🫣🫣

[west surge]

That can easily be resolved by reaching out to people

[dull hawk]

(This is why a built-in API would be nice.)

[dull hawk]

or even saying it in their server or Steam logs.

[west surge]

what do you mean

[dull hawk]

I'm mostly having general issues rn, but the mod syncing itself is pretty much done, just can't function properly until I handle these general issues.

[dull hawk]

Just PSAs.

[west surge]

we dont need that

we need communicate with them

[dull hawk]

Both would be better.

[west surge]

not really tbh

we can already look at changes via comparing decompiles

[dull hawk]

Yes, but then that just means there is no reason for him to reach out. Lol

Based on what you are saying.

[west surge]

Not at all, communication could provide him with things he could easily to do prevent things from breaking in the future

[dull hawk]

Eh, he shouldn't really try to steer away from breaking mods, it's an alpha for a reason, if he tries to always maintain compatibility, the game will never improve.

[west surge]

I think that's a pretty broad and dismissive response

[oblique marten]

an API or refactors definitely would be nice, but I won't ask for them
As modders, especially when injecting code, we really should just have the expectation that things will break, at least until we make our own APIs for everything we could need, but I don't really see that fully solving the problem

[west surge]

You can help prevent breakage in many ways with many different changes that are of varying concern

[dull hawk]

Obviously he shouldn't just start breaking everything intentionally, but if he wants to improve something, he definitely should, we just have to adjust.

[west surge]

again, your assuming what all those things would be

[dull hawk]

Especially because some modders do things differently, they either do things that are very unstable and can easily break if a few things are changed, or sometimes it may be a bit more flexible.

[west surge]

for example, right now the default script order of execution is randomized every update, explicitly defining an order of execution for the major managers would be a massive improvement for mod compatability on updates

[oblique marten]

imo, it doesn't feel right to ask for zeekers to take time/money away from making content for a successful game to acommodate something they weren't prepared for

[surreal cove]

hmm

[dull hawk]

That as well, we weren't modding the game before it was made. Lol

[oblique marten]

that definitely seems like it would be an easy fix though

[west surge]

I think it feels fine to ask, their always able to say no

[oblique marten]

that's fair, but I don't want them to feel obligated

[dull hawk]

Yeah, and not exactly anything to do with what I was saying.

[oblique marten]

at least not for in-depth changes

[west surge]

That's because what you were saying was an assumption

[dull hawk]

A constant load order is definitely good.

[west surge]

a constant execution order is something he could easily do to prevent things from breaking in the future

[dull hawk]

Okay, but that's one situation.

[west surge]

yeah

[dull hawk]

Yes, it could, and definitely should be done, but that's not the main idea of what I'm saying.

[west surge]

not all relevant examples are going to be ones you have already thought about 😛

[dull hawk]

Yes, but you are placing me in a bit of a "gotcha, you are dead wrong".

Obviously there are exceptions.

I'm not saying he should literally not maintain any compatibility what-so-ever.

[west surge]

I wouldn't even say their exceptions their just things that he could easily do

that includes explicit, possibly limited and ongoing support type changes like your talking about or little quick, light fixes like im talking about

[dull hawk]

I'm just saying that if he wants to change something to improve the game in whatever way, he shouldn't worry too much about it breaking mods if its a big improvement.

Okay, now I'm feeling like we are on a completely different string of yarn here.

Idk how we are not on the same page.

[west surge]

I agree with that but also if he did want to work with the mod community to whatever extent he would want to, just vibe checking with some of the more experienced modders could help prevent stuff easily

I'm not saying he should be expected to but any outright communication would go a long away and people here would be more than happy to work with any amount of involvement zeekers would be interested in

it's very scalable

[dull hawk]

Yes, and that is where he could put out little announcements to modders about the upcoming changes he is making, rather than just exclusively reaching out to the more popular ones, especially due to time restraints.

[west surge]

announcements are something we already have and are reactionary

[dull hawk]

Not really, we didn't know any of the changes that would actually happen with v47, which broke quite a bit of mods.

[west surge]

I'm talking about improving mod compatability in updates before they release

[dull hawk]

We did have a beta version for it though.

(Although people still seemed unprepared.)

[west surge]

99% of the mods that broke from the update were due to order of execution changes

funny enough

roundmanager and startofround swapped places

[dull hawk]

I did see some of that, but not most of it.

[dull hawk]

Yes, which is why I mentioned the whole announcements thing to the modding community about internal changes being made, but you said it wasn't needed. Lol

[west surge]

In fairness i did misunderstand what you meant, i thought you meant the announcement that was concurrent with the update, not like a warning type one

[dull hawk]

That explains.

[west surge]

although in that regard if they had a list of those changes they could also mention that to people who know what those changes entail

[dull hawk]

I was still trying to figure out where we got on a different page. Lol

[west surge]

for example if zeekers changes the name of a major function, it would be nice if someone had the oppertuntiy to ask him to leave the old function name in that just runs the new one for an update before it's completely deprecated

[dull hawk]

If they know of the upcoming change, they should just adjust to it. (Easier when done via Steam beta release, or if it is literally just a simple rename.)

[west surge]

Yeah they should. But also on Zeekers end it would be 1-4 lines to stop all those affected mods from breaking on said update

[dull hawk]

If it gets to the point where Zeekerss is just changing names of methods and that is it, that's just weird, and he probably doesn't even care at that point.

If it was like different parameters and stuff, that's more understandable, yeah.

[haughty pagoda]

Clear top priority feature: button that downloads every publicly listed mod

[dull hawk]

Lol

[pastel geyser]

I’m too tired to read this can someone give me a summary of the things talked about today

Also one question

Will things like cosmetics, advanced company xp be saved

[bright sentinel]

for overwolf you need to consider overwolf+thunderstore

(the browser/web rendering engine for thunderstore is integrated in overwolf i assume?)

also does this mod somehow record mods performance?
(so i can spot faulty mods that cause lag spikes, e.g. currently suspecting some navemash stuff)

[sonic kettle]

Haven't played lethal company in a while, but this mod will bring me back

[dull hawk]

Cosmetics won't be a feature yet, as for AC's XP, that isn't my mod to do anything with, so idk what you mean.

[dull hawk]

Lol, exactly.

[dull hawk]

Nope, never was mentioned, but maybe I could do something for it at some point.

[dull hawk]

Noice.

I crashed pretty hard last night, so I've been asleep for like 11 hours. Lol

Time to get back to work.

[sage socket]

Get that rest

[dull hawk]

and food, I forgot about food, so now I'm having to make food. Lol

Food is good.

[haughty pagoda]

Food is great

[dull hawk]

Also having to fix an issue with UI because Unity's UI likes to be annoying. (Unity was the reason for me having to make my own formula to make LMM's UI fit just about any screen.

[pearl plover]

don’t forget that this includes two platform builds lmao

[dull hawk]

Doesn't it end up installing more? I forgot if it was also an installer.

[pearl plover]

It has an installer, but all of the contents are contained

[dull hawk]

Ah, I see that other build. Lol

[pearl plover]

The AppImage is kind of like a sandboxed version for Linux

[dull hawk]

I see.

[dull hawk]

Ah, okay.

[pearl plover]

but it works independent of Linux distro for the most part

[dull hawk]

I've yet to work with Linux, so I don't know much about that. Lol

[pearl plover]

nightmare

[dull hawk]

Lol, jeez.

[dull hawk]

Well, the cool thing about this is that I've probably just improved performance even more.

Less update calls to the UI.

Also probably just better Math than what Unity does.

(Since it literally just does Math, nothing crazy.)

It's depressing that it is just easier and faster to make your own UI implementations than to work with Unity's.

For the basic things, it's pretty nice, but anything more is just inefficient and glitchy.

[dull hawk]

Btw, forgot to mention that it would definitely not come out today because I got Karate.

Especially since I'm having to deal with some visual issues, and considering this is a mostly visual mod, it's not something I can postpone.

[sage socket]

I patiently wait for the release so I can convince my friends to play more modded with me

[surreal cove]

All good take your time

Would much rather have a release where you took your time then you rushing it and wasting your whole day

[dull hawk]

Yeah, and I'm also going to have to do some changes with the profile stuff to make things work as best as possible.

[hasty fog]

when are you looking to release now? some time in the coming week?

[dull hawk]

Still within a few days.

Yeah.

[hasty fog]

cool, keep up the good work

[dull hawk]

What I'll have to do (and this will have to be forced behavior) is if there are existing mods in the vanilla directory, it will move all of them to a LMM main profile (which can be changed), but it will always have LMM in the vanilla directory for quick launching and stuff.

[dull hawk]

Anyway, reasoning for this is because of loading so many mods every time you may want to mess with your mods can be really annoying and tedious. (This is the problem with an in-game mod manager.) Basically it will always load as LMM only via Steam, if you want to load another profile via Steam, options will be available and it will relaunch with that profile's mods. There will be settings that will allow it where when it is closed and reopened, it will only load LMM again or even keep the same profile active, if desired.

Profiles will be out for beta, but it is pushed back because this system requires it before I can really push mod sync out.

Mod sync will have to use what's called temp profiles, which will basically use the same code that wasn't really done yet due to the other issues I mentioned.

Eventually, I could probably look into Preloader in order to run everything before any other mods even run or maybe even most of the game so that you can quickly use the mod manager rather than having to wait for mods to load. (Or even the game if your PC is slow.)

[west surge]

wait actually

when can you interact with LMM

like ingame

[dull hawk]

I'm about to add a button for it in the Online/LAN section, but right now it is in the main menu.

[west surge]

I assume the game restarts when new mods are downloaded?

[dull hawk]

When you click for it to apply, yes.

I'm not releasing with hot loading rn.

I'll wait for LMM to actually grow before I even bother adding the API for it.

[west surge]

yeah was going to say

i don't know how hot loading would even be viable

[dull hawk]

It already is viable.

Minx even did it.

He just didn't handle detecting the mods well.

[west surge]

how do you deal with registered prefabs and code running before the main menu

[dull hawk]

RIght now the same code that he did is disabled.

[dull hawk]

It depends on how the mod does it, if they do it via Awake, then it would just execute normally, just at a different time.

If not, then yeah, obviously there are problems.

Which is why I am adding an API for it.

[west surge]

Could you elaborate on this?

[dull hawk]

If they apply those changes when the mod first runs, then it is fine.

Let me check how I do it with one of my mods, actually.

Ah, wait, right, they can't, have to wait for GameNetworkManager.

Either way, like I said, API.

[west surge]

1, In the context of registering network prefabs, They can't do it when the mod first runs. because it needs to be added to the networkmanager after it exists and before it starts

2. in the context of modloaders, not all mods have an awake

[dull hawk]

Yep.

Like I said though, I'll have an API for it, and mods will be able to flag whether or not they are compatible with LMM hot loading.

[surreal cove]

dont doubt my boy kyxino 🔥

[west surge]

Wasn't doubting

Just for example I don't think any LLL content would be hot reloadable

[dull hawk]

Yeah, I was already aware that some things wouldn't work like that, just couldn't remember how good the coverage was by default.

[dull hawk]

Well, it would, it could just be handled under a separate method without directly depending on LMM.

Basically the plan is to allow developers to add a method that would be called upon hot loading.

I could also just make it run the original thing forcibly.

(Which typically it would work, but I'm sure there may be some programmers doing something weird, which could just end up making it worse than leaving it alone.)

[west surge]

so how would the hotreloading work? unload main menu, run some sort of event, load main menu?

[dull hawk]

There are two options: quick reload, which closes and reopens the game back to its original point (whether it be the main menu or the lobby you are joining); and hot loading, which allows the mod to immediately start running after being downloaded in a game (ideally) before the lobby runs.

The latter won't come out until I add an API, but mainly because I don't want to deal with people complaining of issues arising when it's always more recommended to quick reload.

[west surge]

how would you restart and/or stall the gamenetworkmanager?

[dull hawk]

You don't need to restart it?

[west surge]

if you open the main menu and download mods that have prefabs that need to be registered you've missed the window to register them, no?

(for hotreloading)

[dull hawk]

Ah, for hot loading.

No, there isn't a window because you've yet to start a game.

[west surge]

the oppisite, no?

if were on the main menu downloading mods we have started the game

[dull hawk]

I meant the lobby.

[west surge]

what do you mean when you say the lobby

[dull hawk]

Like starting a game, idk.

Not talking about LC as a whole.

I'm talking about loading into a save.

[west surge]

networkmanager initializes via awake when you open the main menu scene

[dull hawk]

A lobby.

[west surge]

nothing about what im talking about happens when you actually join the game

its gotta be done first frame of main menu

[dull hawk]

That's why I'm saying before.

[west surge]

but if your using your mod manager on the main menu, its past that right?

[dull hawk]

It latches onto the original method, that's why it runs that exact frame.

You could technically run it at any time after you have it.

Unless there is an error that literally only allows that single frame, which I doubt.

[west surge]

no thats what im saying

you have a frame to do this

after you can access the networkmanager (when the scene loads) and before the networkmanager finishes it's Start function

technically two frames i suppose

[dull hawk]

You really can't do it any after? That's just stupid, what.

Is there even a good reason for that limitation then?

[west surge]

not particually but its more or less a non issue outside of this context

im wondering if maybe the best way to hot reload would to actually have your mod manager ui exist on an additive scene that loads when the main menu loads, then your hot-reloading would involve unloading the mainmenu scene and doing all the initial scenes asap (built in intro skip mod that does all the right functions)

so then your modmanager itself wouldn't unload and/or could even exist visually throughout the process

could even have a full size background on your canvas so players dont even know its all rerunning

[dull hawk]

Checking GNM rq.

[west surge]

you can ask people like xilo and lordfirespeed. it's not something we haven't looked into

[dull hawk]

OH, I think I see why.

[west surge]

in theory unloading/loading the main menu might cleanly restart it though

[dull hawk]

Awake gets called twice because it loads the main menu twice essentially.

Which destroys GameNetworkManager.

[west surge]

huh?

[dull hawk]

Preventing additions.

Yeah, I've had the problem with LMM before.

Main menu gets called twice.

Rather, main menu is "opened" in a sense, twice.

[west surge]

i dont see how thats relevant

[dull hawk]

Because GNM is running twice.

Awake*

[west surge]

again, i dont see how thats relevant

[dull hawk]

It's why you can't make changes after those two frames you mentioned.

I'm assuming, at least.

[west surge]

why would that correlate to that

[dull hawk]

Because the 2nd time GNM Awake is called, it destroys GNM.

[west surge]

ok

i dont see how thats relevant in the context of us doing stuff after that happens

[dull hawk]

Because you can't add things if GNM is destroyed.

Meaning, if you prevent GNM from getting destroyed, you could add things after those two frames.

[west surge]

no

if that was the case the entire game wouldnt work

espicially adding prefabs to it via mods

thats not relevant

[dull hawk]

No because GNM is still around at first, which is why it still works.

[west surge]

@tepid sedge knows abit more about the limitations on registering prefabs after the gamenetworkmanager starts than i do so might be able to weigh in

[tepid sedge]

who dares disturb my slumber

[west surge]

re: hotreloading mods installed on the main menu

[dull hawk]

Well, specifically loading custom content after the game has started.

[tepid sedge]

yeah you can register network prefabs in main menu

just has to be outside of the lobby

[west surge]

??

[dull hawk]

So it's fine, as I was expecting.

[west surge]

since when has it not been confined to doing it before gamenetworkmanager starts

[tepid sedge]

you always had to do it after gamenetworkmanager start

(though more specifically networkmanager start)

[dull hawk]

It's how I did it too, so that just confused me for a moment.

[west surge]

a lot of people have mentioned it being limited to having to register before/during its starting otherwise you miss the window 🤔

like for months

[tepid sedge]

what

I just register in start since it's the earliest

[dull hawk]

I never even heard it until you said it.

Yeah, exactly.

[tepid sedge]

but you only have to register outside of a running client (ie outside of being in a lobby)

[dull hawk]

That's what I expected.

[west surge]

which starts when you join a game right

[tepid sedge]

yes

and ends when you leave it

[west surge]

people been lying to me 🤔

apologies @dull hawk

[dull hawk]

All good, I immediately was trying to circumvent the supposed limitation, but it's not like I spent more than a minute. Lol

Yeah, had that been an actual limitation, I was assuming it was the double main menu thing that I had to deal with at first when it came to working on LMM.

(Since GNM's Awake would destroy itself if called twice, but idk when it is actually called.)

[tepid rampart]

still plan on releasing soonish?

[dull hawk]

Yeah, within a few days.

I have to add a proper profile system for mod syncing to work properly.

[tepid rampart]

hell yeah

[dull hawk]

Ah, yes, I love getting an error once and then never again.

[dull hawk]

Man, I do love being able to easily view mods though.

Everything is so much faster than TMM/r2mm or even the actual website.

I could release this as a mod viewer. Lol

uh...

[hasty sequoia]

wowie

[dull hawk]

Yeah, nothing like being able to switch pages so fast that you come across a ped joke faster than the Flash can run across the planet.

Best use case for LMM, totally.

[oblique marten]

wouldn't it just destroy duplicates?

[dull hawk]

Wait, yeah, it should. Lol

As long as Awake is not manually called.

[oblique marten]

lol yeah true

[dull hawk]

Ah, nice, config compression all the way down to 4.6%.

Dang, 2.9% when I have more. Lol

[dull hawk]

2.4% for this one now.

[dull hawk]

1.7% for it now. 1st is raw, 2nd is a basic filter, 3rd is compressed.

[dull hawk]

Here are the results for this one as well.

I'm going to be doing another filter when I wake up, which should hopefully cut it down a lot more.

[dull hawk]

Due to how it works, it is possible that only this one will be really affected by it, but we'll see.

[bright sentinel]

Just suggested it since I couldn't find anything for easy profiling

[bright sentinel]

It's not really sandboxed... But it runs standalone which is okay if that's from the official site (wish they had a flatpak tho)

[surreal cove]

is there a chance the mod will be released by this weekend?
also will this mod fix this
basically one my friend adds a bunch of his own qol and meme mods for his end, and he changes the configs a lot.
I mainly create the codes and modpacks for our group, so im constantly adding mods, and adding new codes. So he needs to readd the mods, and redo the configs everytime.

[dull hawk]

Ah, I see.

[dull hawk]

Not sure about by, but during, most likely.

I say that because I have Karate Thursday and Friday.

As for the problem you mentioned, yes, if you are using mod sync, it will "fix" that since it will sync up the configs

Also, unfortunately I will not be able to work as much on this today because I have some contracting work I need to do for a game real quick.

[dull hawk]

ON A SIDE NOTE: I FINALLY HAVE A REAL CEILING FAN, SO NOW I'M NOT SCORCHING HOT IN MY ROOM AT ALL TIMESSSS

Productivity: 📈

[sonic kettle]

LET'S GOOO

[tropic gull]

next goal is to get an aircond!! 🙏

[surreal cove]

hopefully

[dull hawk]

I have air conditioning, it's just that the rest of the house is cold, so it heats everything up, INCLUDING MY ALREADY HOT ROOM.

[surreal cove]

are u black belt

[dull hawk]

I also have two vents linked to my room.

[dull hawk]

Yes, also just hit doing Karate for a decade like two weeks ago. Lol

[surreal cove]

Congrats

[dull hawk]

I am a Shodan Black Belt under Wadoguseikai Karate, which is based in Tokyo.

[surreal cove]

so real karate basically?

[dull hawk]

Yep.

[surreal cove]

damn do you actually fight people in tournements?

[dull hawk]

In regular people terms, I'm a first level black belt in one of the biggest styles of Karate under the Japanese standard.

[dull hawk]

You can, I have twice.

My back is too hard on me to keep doing it. I was going to do two tournaments next month, but I decided against it and to take that month off from Karate for the first time in like 2 years.

[surreal cove]

damn thats still impressive

[dull hawk]

Eh, I guess?

[surreal cove]

also a great way to stay active as well

[dull hawk]

Ah, yes, definitely.

I won't ever stop doing Karate for that reason.

Along with needing to do something other than programming. Lol

[surreal cove]

yea nice to have a active hobby when programming

[dull hawk]

Once I come back from my break, I'm retouching up on my skills and technique, and then I will be helping teach my underlings to get to their next level.

[west surge]

me programming in 37c be like 😭

[dull hawk]

DEFINITELY.

[dull hawk]

LOL

JEEZ.

[surreal cove]

lol

[dull hawk]

I think it was worse with my old computer than it was before this ceiling fan, especially since I overclocked that old computer. Lol

[surreal cove]

winter is like
when your in your room with the PC, it feels perfect. The rest of the house is freezing
in summer
the rooms without PC are scorching, and with the PC it feels like hell

[surreal cove]

you should get a window fan, to suck out hot air

[dull hawk]

Then the house would look bad, and my mom would not like it. Lol

Either way, it's fine now, this ceiling fan is nice.

I just have it on full blast, haha.

[surreal cove]

something like this

it doesent look that bad

[dull hawk]

Yeah, I know.

It does.

Even I can agree it looks bad. LOL

[west surge]

last summer i wasn't able to play hitman 2 because my pc would hit 100c on the cpu and turn off

[surreal cove]

i mean it also depends what your room looks like as well, and where it is

[dull hawk]

JEEZ.

[surreal cove]

damn, you should really get an AC

[west surge]

money

[surreal cove]

yea I feel you, my parents never turn on the AC/Heater

[dull hawk]

I got these fans that are somewhat expensive, but they refill the volume of the case like crazy.

Let me find the name rq.

[surreal cove]

summer feels like hell, and winter feels like the artic

[surreal cove]

btw where do you live?

in the fricking desert?

[west surge]

melbourne australia

lol

[surreal cove]

I knew it

[dull hawk]

PCs heat up like crazy either way. Lol

[surreal cove]

yea also you can get a fan, that actually faces the door, so it can push out hot air

im curious if those "water" fans will damage your pc

more like mist

[dull hawk]

@west surge https://www.amazon.com/Phanteks-PH-F120T30_BG-T30-120-Premium-high-Performance/dp/B09B2LTXCN/ref=asc_df_B09B2LNFV4/

Those could help.

Great fans.

I just have them on full blast at all times because I prefer the noise.

[west surge]

oh my fans be pretty bussin i think. it just be hot aha

ty tho

[dull hawk]

No problem. Lol

[surreal cove]

found this portable ac and mini heater for 68 bucks

[dull hawk]

Well, not just that, but if they don't refill your case's volume frequently, then your ambient temperature could just make it worse.

[surreal cove]

wonder if its legit

[dull hawk]

Could very well be, it's not that expensive to create that stuff.

[surreal cove]

"Blows Nature and Hot Air, No Cooling (With Print)"

so I think its like the fan thing I sent

[dull hawk]

Lol

[surreal cove]

looking at the description, the grammer isnt very good

" Not only can Small Air Conditioner be used as an air conditioner to cool down (nature air), but also can be used as a heater to heat up, 3 seconds fast heat up, instantly turn on and heat up, to meet the needs of different seasons."

[dull hawk]

Lol

https://tenor.com/view/steven-he-taking-glasses-off-stoopid-gif-24983995

[surreal cove]

lol

[dull hawk]

Crap, yeah, this contracting work took up the whole day.

Luckily it is pretty much already done, but man, I don't really like Lua/Luau that much anymore, C# is just so much better. Lol

[surreal cove]

contracting wah

[dull hawk]

Doing some work for a game.

I'm a developer for an LLC based in New Jersey, but I'm pretty cool with the guy, so I'm helping him with a game that he helped develop under a different group.

I've been doing a lot of contracting work in game development since I've been modding because I don't have much time otherwise. Lol

[surreal cove]

ohh ok thx

[dull hawk]

Once I'm done with the grind, I'm going back to properly game developing. Lol

[surreal cove]

sounds great

[dull hawk]

(but I'm still doing modding, just not as much as I am now.)

[pastel geyser]

The game better be the best game I ever seen, soulslike roguelike easy 100+ hours of gameplay on the main story with fun combat, dynamic story, immersive story telling

[dull hawk]

LOL

It's just a chaotic physics based game.

[pastel geyser]

Damn

[dull hawk]

So I'm doing something involving a tornado and a black hole.

[pastel geyser]

I tried making a black hole in godot but I suck at physics and math

[dull hawk]

It's some simple stuff, the most complex stuff in the game is probably my physics for this. Lol

[dull hawk]

I casually make black holes when I'm bored.

[pastel geyser]

Bro is not sigma from Overwatch

[dull hawk]

Lol

[surreal cove]

yea prob will still n eed to update

[surreal cove]

I stopped at rougelike :/

best game and rougelike cant be in the same sentence, except for this one

[pastel geyser]

roguelikes r the best

[dull hawk]

The funny thing is that I've gotten one of my mods to never require an update ever again. Lol

It doesn't even use HarmonyX.

It only uses BepInEx to load the code and that is it.

Everything updates with the game.

[surreal cove]

whcih one

[dull hawk]

LethalEditor

[surreal cove]

the harder version of lethal variables

[dull hawk]

You mean LethalUtilities?

[surreal cove]

yea utilities

[dull hawk]

Lol

Yep.

[surreal cove]

there are so many mods that do this

lethal variables, utilties, quantities, editor, advanced company

[dull hawk]

Yeah.

LethalEditor v2 will surpass LethalUtilities v2 for some things. Lol

[surreal cove]

btw does LU give the ability to adjust enemy speed, and make the enemy killable? cause I want to do that, but AC doesent allow for it

[dull hawk]

LethalUtilities > LethalEditor > LethalUtilities v2 > LethalEditor v2 (Everything is bunny hopping the other.)

[dull hawk]

Nope, not yet, but LethalEditor does.

[surreal cove]

bet will use LE, is it compatible with AC? I only want to change it for those 2 things? and does it have a gui?

[surreal cove]

alr thx

[dull hawk]

Idk if it is compatible, as long as AC doesn't mess with that stuff, sure, but LethalEditor typically overwrites whatever is there. It doesn't have a UI though.

[surreal cove]

alr thx.

[dull hawk]

Honestly, I might incorporate LethalEditor into LethalUtilities, idk.

I'll come up with something at some point, but rn I got to focus on this contract work so that I can get back to work on LMM.

[surreal cove]

bet take ur time

[dull hawk]

This has taken too long, and then I have another job to do on Monday, but luckily that one is easier.

[dull hawk]

Jeez, well I'm done with that contract work, but that shaved off two days, which is annoying.

Man, I might need to invest in a second monitor finally.

It's so much better than just one, or even one ultra-wide monitor.

LET'S GO, I COULD WIRELESSLY CONNECT TO MY TV.

oh gosh

actually this is pretty bad

There goes that idea.

[haughty pagoda]

Do it, actual game changer for me

Even a cheap one is good imo

Though the vertical for coding / discord thing is nice too

[dull hawk]

Yeah, I used to use my Samsung Tablet for it, and I loved it, but I didn't use the tablet much for anything else, so I gave it to my mom. Lol

[haughty pagoda]

Ah lol

[dull hawk]

Yeahhh, $700 used for something I could handle for an easy $100-200. Lol

[dull hawk]

Further improvements to this. 0.54% of its original size.

(Going to test with the modpack as well, but first I'm doing a few more improvements.)

(Btw, this is for config syncing.)

(Forgot to reiterate that.)

Should be a whole lot better now.

I redid how it handles it.

[dull hawk]

.26% now. I kept messing with the original size calculation, but there we go.

[dull hawk]

.22% with no data loss.

I also forgot about removing the manifests from this. Lol

0.126% of original size with no data loss for 306 configs. (Most of which are set to defaults.)

Now time for a proper test with a modpack.

0.99% of original size with no data loss. I don't have the config file count because I have it output the filtered contents, which took up my entire console.

[dull hawk]

but yeah, better than this. Lol

Anyway, what this means is that if you already have all of the mods, syncing configs will be much faster than profile codes, like MUCH MUCH faster.

My personal mod list:

As for the modpack (TMLC v7.3.0):

[dull hawk]

Improved.

[dull hawk]

Well, I woke up early again, and I'm staying up so that I have more time to work on this.

Ideally, soon I could get that closer to 0% with some trickery, but honestly, I'd say this is pretty good already.

(Heck, at some point I could literally get that to exactly 0% at times.)

If I spent some more time, I definitely could.

but I've spent enough time, I got to get profiles fully working so that I can finish mod syncing.

[dull hawk]

I do have to make changes to the compression for certain reasons (like compatibility with some potential future things), but either way, it will still be REALLY good.

(Plus, I soon plan to make it better.)

[surreal cove]

epic

[pastel geyser]

Bro skipped modsync to go to lmm + everything

Crazy

[oblique marten]

it do be like that sometimes

[dull hawk]

End results, I did one last filter, and then added extra data that will help LMM and the user.

Loading the modpack for this as well rq.

[dull hawk]

TMLC v7.3.0

Ah, yes, got to love trying to open up a Unity project.

proceeds to stop loading and get stuck

wait

Does it get stuck when a Unity game is running???

The heck?

[surreal cove]

Will compression make the modpack load faster

[dull hawk]

It will make it download faster for other users.