My proposition for jam mechanics, magazine refilling and sidearm mechanics:

[bronze shore]

• This game need jam and mag refiling mechanics!
• Filling of mags need a time.
• Filing of mags induces players to take more mags, so chest rigs need pouches for mags (It is strange that the chest rig has space for a rifle.).
• Bigger mag (eg 60 rounds) needs more time for loading and has higher chance of jamming. Higher capacity comes with a trade-off.
• Magazine jams and reloads make a sidearm more essential, so drawing a pistol always interrupts the process of reloading or clearing a malfunction on primary weapon.

GZW actually promotes oversized mags too much. It shouldn't have a meta. 60 round mag is great but it comes with trade-off (jams and reload time). Real soldiers rarely use 60-rounds mags.

[vocal hemlock]

FWIW, larger cap mags do have trade offs. Look at the stats compared to smaller ones.

That’s not to imply they can’t rebalance (I don’t think 60’s should be 1x2’s like 30’s, for instance), but it’s not “free” to use them now.

[bronze shore]

Larger mags aren't free, but the trade-off is too small. Reload speed is small, they don't have ergonomics penalty (Real influence of ergonomics doesn't really matter right now. Rifle with bad ergo has to good ADS speed.). Actually mechanics don't support smaller mags. The only advantage of 30-rounds mag is mass of weapon. It improves ADS time.

And M4 with small mag looks better than 60-round 🤣😁

[blazing kernel]

Smaller mags make the weapon lighter so you can keep ADSed for longer since weapon weight influences your arm stamina drain. The filling time will probably be enough for 60 rounders to not be as considered as you may have 400ms for 1 bullet to be loaded so 12 seconds for standard mag, and 600ms for 1 bullet on a 60 rounder so 36 seconds to reload it.
Honestly jams should be very limited in scope(where it starts with in terms of durability) and what ammo and situation causes it or it will just be outright annoying.

[bronze shore]

Jams are annoying, but they should be very limited, provided that all conditions are positive. If weapon is damaged, using bigger mags or high-pressure ammo should increase the probability of malfunction of weapon. If all these negative factors combine, probability of jam should be annoying 🙂

[blazing kernel]

As long as they are limited and basically non-existent on good quality maintained gear, I don't see a reason for it to not be in the game.
I will say though it's the quality of ammunition that influences malfunctions, subsonics have more problems than higher pressure rounds, and the gas tube can be adjusted

[copper egret]

I love that people say that mag packing forces you to bring more mags. Where do you think people got the idea of only bringing 1 extra mag and a bunch of loose ammo? Tarkov. In tarkov people only started bringing extra mags after they removed the ability put ammo in your ass. Having a mag packing animation has nothing to do with it.

Mag packing only introduces this really goofy playstyle where you kill one guy > reload and repack the mag > rinse and repeat

[pale laurel]

They do have malfunction below a certain percentage but I don’t remember where I k ow I had a fail to fire at 10%. But I think with dirt and things it would be realistic to have jams randomly

[bronze shore]

I think that bigger mags should have some chance of malfunction, even if the weapon and mag are good quality . They have a natural tendency to jam (especially drum magazines). I'm fan of trade-off philosophy - a lot of round, but that have the price.

[bronze shore]

I think that removing the ability to put ammo in your ass isn't enough. Maybe ammo packs should be bigger (2x2) and an extremely long magazine loading time could help. Of course, loading at the COP and main base should be intant.

[pale laurel]

Some of the best fights I have enjoyed are when I’m scrounging for ammo and down to the last half magazine, trigger discipline is key.

[bronze shore]

Imagine that the games mechanics force the player to mostly use single fire, just like in a real combat 😎

[wooden sorrel]

Why do people always want to add unnecessary friction into a video game? No thanks. I dont need to sit there for 10 seconds watching some artificial mag load. I dont need to peak out to shoot when I got guys all around me to hear some artificial sound effect tell me my weapons jammed and have to take 10-20 seconds to unjam it. Its a game. If you want real life then go join the military.

[vernal sleet]

You do realise the game is trying to lean on realism? Having gun malfunctions at a certain point of durability drop is something that happens and is good to have to give incentive to spend money, items to keep your guns in tip top condition, gun jame should not take 10 to 20 seconds, clearing gun jams would only take a few seconds

It also brings tension to the game in firefights where losing gear is a possibility, it adds more emphasis on good positioning where you can deal with issues that come up without getting killed, it will also make PVP interactions more meaningful and more organic as you know if you have a weapon low enough in durability you may not want to engage

Bringing in some sort of more realistic mag loading would be helpful to the game because at the moment you're just bringing 1 or 2 extra mags and a bunch of rounds where you can fit 120 rounds in the space of 1 mag, all that is doing is creating work arounds for weight management and firefights, you'd be more inclined to bring them as full mags if you know mag loading would take time, and again would help with the flow of firefights be that PVE or PVP

Friction in games like GZW is an actual feature, you don't want to over simplify systems that could work as close to real life in a game that wants to lean into those ideas of realism

[copper egret]

how do you figure it would make people bring more mags? do you have an example of a game that did this successfully or where do you base this assumption?

[vernal sleet]

Why do i need one?

I also said "more inclined" never said it would solve the problem 100%

[copper egret]

Do I really need to answer this? I have yet to see a single extraction shooter where mag packing has had that effect. People dont bring a lot of mags because ammo is expensive and the safest way to keep yourself from bleeding money is put that ammo in your ass, and only carry one extra mag.

Mag packing in itself has very little to do with with this.

[vernal sleet]

Have you got data to back that up that everyone does this in every extraction shooter?

[copper egret]

I could point to any tarkov stream but there people started carrying more mags after they removed the ability to put ammo in your prison wallet

[vernal sleet]

So lets stop letting people put ammo in their safe pocket and keep mag packing as a thing that adds some realism

[copper egret]

I would rather they do neither of those things and leave things as is I wont lie

[bronze shore]

You can go play Battlefield... 🙂

[wooden sorrel]

leaning on realism doesnt mean everything has to be completely realistic. If they want realistic then they have a gazillion changes they would need to make. Its still a video game and doesnt need to be 100% realism. It just needs to be fun. Adding tons of unneccessary friction doesnt always make it more fun, except for maybe masochists.
I already have incentive to keep my guns tip top. They start working like butt cheeks when the get into 80% and below. I replace them when they get into the 70%s. Not even worth the repair to me when it will only repair back into the 80s.
I dont give a crap about PVP. I already also have incentive to not die in PVE... I hate dying. I hate wasting time running back. I hate losing the task mission. Thats incentive enough not to die.
Who cares if I only bring 2 mags. What does it add to a game to have to bring 4 or 5? Tell me what great fun that adds.

[wooden sorrel]

I can go play what I want to play. You asking for features here. Is just as legit for me to say go play a game that has that feature as it is for you to tell me to play another game for saying no thanks to that feature.

[bronze shore]

Ammo in GZW is expensive for you? Really? 🤣 The extra weight of mags can be a problem, but buying ammo?

[copper egret]

Ok what does that have to do with anything?

[wooden sorrel]

22 bucks a bullet. I refill a large ammo box every other day. Sometimes its every 3 days depending on how much I play. Thats like 50k or something. Its not expensive when you are rich and treat money like its nothing but its still expensive in reality.

Then add the 2 guns I go through a day at like 17k a pop self built.

[bronze shore]

Ammo and guns are easy to find. Regardless of that, they could lower the price of bullets.

[wooden sorrel]

I build my own guns. Im not going to find enough 995 ammo to sustain. That isnt the point anyways.

[blazing kernel]

Friction is nice, but RNG sucks, if jamming is to be added there needs to be a way to ensure it won't happen. Whether you're lubricating your weapon or whatever. I don't want to die because I have to put 9 bullets of m995 into the bare skull of an npc that balarina dances and have to operate my m4 like a bolt action.

[copper pelican]

we have weapon oil as a junk item in the game already

[copper pelican]

it's cool to watch reloading animations?

[blazing kernel]

As for forcing mags the issue is more in ammo density. Make loose ammo only be held in slots with around 20 rounds per slot. That way people can't bring an entire deployment's worth of ammo in 4 slots.

Rigs should only hold mags and grenades and cases(first aid, ammo, etc) . Pouches are required to hold mags and go from 1-3 mags per pouch, with different rigs having more/less slots for attachments.

In order to make ammo somewhat workable to carry around a 1x2 ammo case can be added in order to allow the carrying of 2x2 worth of ammo, and exists in real life(various amounts) . You get blue and green versions where I'm from. Also looks really nice.
20 rounds seems about right for a full box of ammo irl and dedicated cases hold 50-100 rounds.
Solves the problem without requiring strange solutions. Ammo is also not that expensive in game.

[wooden sorrel]

Solves what problem? How does any of that make the game better or more fun for the majority of players?

[vernal sleet]

You don't see an issue with carrying 120 rounds in the same space as a 60 round magazine that can instantly refill with a click?

[wooden sorrel]

No. What issue is it?

Also answer my question not with another question... how does that make the game more fun for the majority of players?

[vernal sleet]

The game is a Tactical Shooter, the meaning of a Tactical Shooter is to have realistic mechanics where it mimics real life

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_shooter

So as it isn't fun adding realism to a tactical shooter, why not just do away with mags and have a "pool" of ammo that you reload from, would that be more fun for the majority of players? Did the majority of players buy into the game expecting the game to be more arcade like than realistic?

Its funny how we have more complex systems for health like tourniquets, surgery kits, blood, pain killers, radiation pills, detox, and then complex ballistic systems with durability modifiers, angle of penetration, plate placements or survival mechanics with drinking, food, stamina etc etc etc

But noooooo, ammo packing and gun jams, how dare they!

[blazing kernel]

Well you won't be in the inventory as often, honestly I hope they add some automation to it to reduce clicks and whatnot. You set up mags, like 10 on a smallish rig and 6 on a small ish belt (16 total for 480 rounds).
Dedicated slots for more things would be nice like a water bottle, though not sure how common it is.
Ammunition loading can be done when pressing a button like say x to show all the mags then you can use the mousewheel to select one and start to reload without going into your inventory.

[wooden sorrel]

Because it would be stupid to remove mags from the game and just have ammo. Sitting there waiting for ammo to load into a clip or enforcing some artificial limit of 20 ammo in a stack is just unnecessary friction. It does nothing for the game other than satisfy the few people that want complete realism. You can join the military for that.

[wooden sorrel]

If you want to carry 10 mags with you then nothing is stopping you.

[blazing kernel]

There is something stopping me!

[wooden sorrel]

whats that?

[blazing kernel]

Rigs don't have enough space for it...

They barely have enough space for anything honestly

[wooden sorrel]

so carry 8 in your rig and 2 in your belt

[vernal sleet]

So what are your thoughts on the medical, survival, stamina, weight, weapon durability systems?

Do you find them to realistic too?

[blazing kernel]

Then I can't carry my first aid case on my belt.

I want my character to be strapped up in mags and pouches everywhere!

Though there could be a storage compartment to some rigs where you can put somethings, I'd honestly just like the game to have more dedicated slots for things for both fun, my OCD and realism.

[wooden sorrel]

My take is that has reason to exist. It makes sense to heal yourself after you get shot up and arent dead yet. Others have reason to exist as well. Forcing people to carry only mags and having random gun jams is unnecessary friction.

[wooden sorrel]

I mean I get it but there has to be some limit. Put a couple mags in your backpack and then just swap them out when you go through the other 8 then.

[vernal sleet]

But isnt it a little too much friction when you can say have a system like Tarkov with the AFAK and you can just "use" it to heal yourself, rather than have to tourniquet, add blood, bandage, maybe use s surkit etc?

Arent they forcing people to carry all that medical kit for no reason when one item should be enough

[blazing kernel]

That would mean going into the inventory, the idea is that you don't need to go into the inventory besides for looting, I think that would actually add a lot to the game. Like refilling mags on key bind as stated, only pressing R for reload and so on.
I didn't disregard loose ammo alltogether, even normally it's denser than a mag (2 slots make 40), and a case can boost that a bit. Like: 20 per slot for loose ammo(30 rounder is 15 and 60 is 30), 35 for a small case, and 40 for a medium one. So you trade some backpack space so you don't have a bunch of half empty mags.
I'd love the game to feel more tactile where things slot in where they need to go, there are more mechanical interactions with the gun and gear, but way less overall clicking.

[wooden sorrel]

No. Some friction makes sense and adds something to the game. Some friction is unnecessary and just adds things most people wont want.

[vernal sleet]

If we go off the limited sample size of this thread, we have 13 thumbs up/love heart/tick compared to 2 thumbs down and a puke emoji, so far the majority is with this suggestion in part or whole

[blazing kernel]

Which part of it creates friction?

[wooden sorrel]

That doesnt mean anything. Some people dont bother with using the emojis. For instance Im against your suggestion. I didnt bother putting a thumbs down on you. Why would I? Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[wooden sorrel]

What part of what? Not being able to carry ammo? That creates friction. Random gun jams just to have random gun jams? That creates friction. Having to sit there waiting for ammo to load for who knows how long just cus my immersions bro creates friction.

[hollow vessel]

Now we are able to hold a reasonable ammount of 30rd mags (at least in high tier vests), I'm not going to thumbs down it, but mag packing would bore me to death long term - it creates forced down time, which means while your spending 10 mins reloading (or whatever number it turns out to be), you could have spent that time out in the field.

The other thing is at the moment, AI don't have any ammo/weapon limitations at all - they carry 1 mag and reload infinitely from it. Unless mag packing and jams also applied to them as well, I think it would be a hard sell.

[vernal sleet]

Weapon malfunction are only going to happen start to happen and have an increasing curve of it happening after a certain amount of durability loss, in no way are you expecting a gun to have any type of weapon malfunction above say 90% (that number can be adjusted to where ever feels appropriate to start a gun having a chance to malfunction)

And magazine packing can be instant in at the FOB or maybe COPs (theres room to be flexible on that)

[hollow vessel]

I strongly suspect if that occurs, you will see a massive spike in heli usage to the FOB and fights around COPs intensify further in PvEvP - especially if defenders get instant packing while attackers don't.

[vernal sleet]

I do actually think AI should at least have weapon malfunctions and the animation to go along with it too

[vernal sleet]

Also when i say packing magazines, im not expecting it to be 2 minutes to do 60 rounds in a magazine, i was thinking less than 10 seconds

[blazing kernel]

You can carry ammo, though it will be in the dedicated ammo crate thing I mentioned(or loose at lower efficiency). The idea isn't to eliminate spare ammo completely, but to open more options for people to make choices. IE having to choose between mags and ammo.
Gun jams I agree need to be very limited in how they happen, perhaps if you haven't cleaned your weapon for 300 shots there's a small chance of it happening. IRL they can just happen, but I agree the game shouldn't just go out of it's way to annoy you with RNG, there needs to be a way to play around it without brute forcing it, like being forced to buy a new gun. It would be funny seeing the poor people AI's guns jam constantly because they never care for it you pick it up, give it a spring clean and it's back to new.
The wear parts on the gun can be replaced(like springs) at minimal cost removing some malfunctions, cleaning removes some others and so on. Until it becomes 0 for a while.
For ammo packing, you can carry more mags in general, speedloaders do exist as well which will reduce time but take up space.

[blazing kernel]

That's extremely fast for loading mags... 300ms for a round would take 9 seconds to load up a 30 rounder.

[vernal sleet]

Just enough to make you think do you wanna risk carrying more ammo or carry less and not have to pack mags

[hollow vessel]

Alot would depend on how fast that loading is.

Anything longer than 3 minutes (how long it takes for a helo to go one side of the map to the other) and you'll see people prefer to evac to the FOB than reload in the field.

[vernal sleet]

Or reduce the amount ammo to 30 rounds per unit so at least you carry the same amount in the same space as a 60 rounds mag

[vernal sleet]

6 minutes total to go back to where you came from

[hollow vessel]

Which gives enough time for a respawn of the area and loot refresh. You see the problem.

[vernal sleet]

6 minutes?!

Isn't it at least 20 mins for loot or AI to respawn?

[blazing kernel]

The backpack space is a bit weird, I'm thinking more along the lines of ammo boxes(those we toss on the ground) as the standard metric.
I think 300ms per round for 30 rounder and 400ms per round for 60 would be fine, so 24 seconds for a 60 rounder, speedloaders could halve it to 200ms and 150ms respectively

[hollow vessel]

By the time you've hiked from the LZ to the first point of contact, it is close to 10 mins. By 15 mins you can be in the doors of the FN HQ and ready for the spawn, then just blast your way out.

[static cypress]

Taking time to reload a mag makes accuracy more important as well.

[vernal sleet]

hmm yeah something to think about, didn't think of that side of things

But if you can instantly reload doesn't that mean you can just get in and out to certain areas multiple times?

[hollow vessel]

Yes, but you aren't gaurenteed any loot if you do.

[vernal sleet]

Huh i don't get what you're trying to say, so if you have to pack mags then you go back to FOB to reload instantly, then go back to the place you were at to wait for AI to spawn and reloot?

But then if you can instantly reload, then you just go back to a COP and get more ammo and go back to the same spot and wait for the AI to respawn and reloot?

Sorry i may not be understanding your side of the conversation lol

[vernal sleet]

Or when skills come about it shortens that?

[blazing kernel]

150ms would take 4.5 seconds to load a 30 rounder and 12 seconds to reload a 60 rounder, it's already superhuman fast ;P

[vernal sleet]

I was just throwing some times out, but i don't think it should take too long lol

[hollow vessel]

Right now, the current system encourages everyone to stay out in the field.

Mag packing with instant reload at FOB would be used to optimise loot runs - you reload instantly at the FOB, fly back for the spawn, then blast your way out with the loot. You'd expend less ammo, have all the loot on the exit and if you rinse/repeat you're able to create an cycle of guaranteed gain for minimal expenditure and down time.

[vernal sleet]

But you can do that now can't you?

I know i've done loot runs and run back to COPs then run back in to pick everything else up

[hollow vessel]

Not as easily. Right now, it'll be 50/50 if you're able to get anything at all.

[vernal sleet]

But reloading instantly at FOB is like reloading instantly at COPs right now

[hollow vessel]

With less heli flights (of which we only have 4 active helis).

[wooden sorrel]

"Right now, the current system encourages everyone to stay out in the field. " Its one of the things I love about GZW. I can stay out however long or little I want. Its not like a Tarkov where I load into some small map instance and have an artificial time that I need to extract. Its a big open world where I can do whatever I want.

[vernal sleet]

That may present a problem if it somehow forces people to fly back to FOB all the time, but as i alluded to earlier a balance will be needed

[hollow vessel]

Agreed - a balance would be required. If that balance could be found, then I would drop the objection, but until then my concern would remain that this would result in less time in the field and more time in the FOB.

[vernal sleet]

Fair enough, i can see where you're coming from on that front

But then again if the devs kept the same rate of durability drop in the EA of 0.4 you had to go back to COPs after every firefight to repair your weapon 😄

[hollow vessel]

Nah - I just use headshots and FMJ/Subsonics. No negative durability stat, and more than enough oomph to punch holes in helmets.

Only time that changes is when going against the LAF in CQC (using .300 CQ rounds instead).

[wooden sorrel]

Nah not every fight. The way I run is I can get about 3 runs or so if I run full auto with a mix of single fire headshots. Then my gun is down to about 73%. I sell it and build a new one because honestly its starts feeling like garbage before that. I do also do single fire head tapping a lot and the guns last much longer that way.

[bronze shore]

You can Either take 2 mags and spend time loading ammo to clip in field or take 6 mags and do this at the main base and COP's (there magazine refilling should be instant). Refiling in field can be quite fast. This mechanic is only meant to prevent refiling mags during a fight.

[bronze shore]

There are a lot more people who like this than you think. You’re in the minority here 😁

[bronze shore]

I would increase the refilling time for bigger mags... They are way too meta.

[wooden sorrel]

How does this make the game more fun? What difference does it make if I take 60 rounds of ammo or another clip?

[wooden sorrel]

You have no idea what the majority thinks. Most people dont even talk on forums and discords etc. They just play the game.

[vernal sleet]

Neither do you though...

[wooden sorrel]

I never claimed to though...

[vernal sleet]

That is true though but the people on this discord are passionate about this game and hoping it succeeds you'd think would have some level of say in how the game is formed, as many a time the MFG devs have implemented community suggestions, where most of it would be gleaned from here and other streamers, so the people who are responding either through emojis or messages clearly show a leaning to having these mechanics as they would find these specific actions "fun" in terms of creating more tension, realism, simulation that tactical shooters are known to have

You keep asking about the majority of players finding things fun, how do you know what they find fun? Yours is an anecdotal experience, Steel gave some legitimate feedback on the mechanics maybe not suitable to the open world and persistent nature of the game, but "fun", how do you know if they did add it, it would increase players "fun", all you can do is suggest these things, see how many like this suggestions, give their feedback on issues they may see it not working in the game we have at the moment or add to it on massage the suggestion into something that can work

There seems to be a large enough body of people within the discord community that seems to favour the more realistic aspect of the game, as we are seeing push back on the AI being easy, people want to be challenged, there's push back on the unrealistic nature of durability, even weapon stats have had a push back due to some unrealistic stats on them too, people were asking for darker nights as it wasn't realistic to be so bright at night, and many other threads and suggestions but all these are based on more "friction" in the game, it just shows to me that people do find these things fun

[wooden sorrel]

Bro, I have seen this discord and peoples discussions on it for a long time. I am not a long time poster but a long time reader. This discord is a very small fraction of people that play the game and even smaller one of people that have played but no longer do. No one can claim a majority. Is a miniscule vocal group and even in that spec of dust its often split. On top of that, not everyone in this discord was even likely to read this at all so its an even smaller sample of an already non sample size.
Emojies, as I have already explained before, mean nothing. For instance, I didnt bother leaving an emoji one way or the other. I dont see the point. I can speak about how I dont like the mechanics rather than putting some stupid emoji on someones post. I also dont think its fair to emoji ones suggestion in a bad manner. I may not like the suggestion but that doesnt mean I think his opinion isnt valid.

[wooden sorrel]

You are conflating two different things. I never claimed to know what the majority would or wouldn't want. Asking how a requested feature makes something more fun for the majority is far different than claiming to know what the majority would want.
I asked a direct question, several times... how does this feature make the game more fun for the majority that play it. I asked it several times because no one could give an answer other than "muh immersions/realisms bro." To which I continue to state that not everything has to be pure realistic and this game is far from realistic. And that realism doesn't necessarily = more fun.
I fail to see people sitting there trying to load their clips and watching some Tarkov circle spinning for a few minutes saying "yeah bro thats so awesome! Its just like real life bro!!!!" I also fail to see people sitting there in a dog fight having their clips just randomly jam the gun and then getting their butts handed to them because of it saying "oh man that was so cool!"

[vernal sleet]

So because you don't find more reaslism = fun, if others think having a system that adds more realism is fun, you want to dismiss that?

And if you don't like more realism like what the poster suggested, nothing wrong wrong with disagreeing, but dismissing that he and others who have liked this post because they would find the mechanic a good addition to the game doesn't help

[wooden sorrel]

Man please read. I didnt say more realism != fun. I said realism doesn't necessarily (read it doesnt always) = fun. Depends on what that is. Healing myself with different med kits when I get F'ed up is fun. Watching spinning circle to artificially slow down loading clips isn't fun. It just slows down the game and my playtime. Over time that equals hours, days, weeks, months just loading clips. Its unnecessary friction.
I also didnt dismiss anything. I literally said the guys suggestion is valid and why I don't down emoji peoples suggestions. I think everyone has a right to their opinion. My opinion is I dont like it. If anyone is being dismissive its you of me.

[vernal sleet]

Lol ok, fair enough

[wooden sorrel]

👍

[blazing kernel]

Well a reload animation is much more fun to look at than dragging bullets into a mag. You can reload instantly in cops or at base and it rewards operation readiness since if you forget your mags you will suffer.
Like once I forgot my meds and died, I laughed at it, went back and got my stuff, I didn't forget my meds again. This game is as much preparation as shooting, fighting and so on. Gun jams would be interesting specifically since we hypothetically care more for our guns and it would be hilarious seeing the AI's AKs turn into bolt actions.
I would find that fun, I'm not sure if you would find it fun, but I find it fun because of the mechanic, not necessarily of the realism it brings. The constraint is nice and forces you to think more about engagements, "I only have two mags left, there are 8 enemies over there, how will I eliminate them?" instead of just pulling an actual cargo container's worth of ammunition out of your ass filling your mags instantly and beaming the enemies down with little to no need to consider the engagement strategically.

[bronze shore]

But how do you know that? Do you have some insider knowledge?

[bronze shore]

The less meta there is in a game, the more interesting and diverse it becomes. No one is forcing you to choose any specific type of magazine. They just need to be balanced.

[stone dirge]

You get a thumbs up because I like the idea, no idea why these posts always turn into arguments however

[wooden sorrel]

Bro they put polls on discord that get 30 votes. Even polls on Reddit get 200-300 votes. There are 10s of thousands of players. Its common knowledge that the majority of people dont bother with discords and forums and stuff. They just play games,

[stone dirge]

Tbf that was completely hidden to me, someone mentioned it in another suggestion and it was the first ive heard of it

Pinned it now

[copper pelican]

they should put the polls in-game tbh. runescape did it and it worked great

[wooden sorrel]

Ok they arent hidden on Reddit. If you really think the majority of people that play this game are on this discord then I have bridges to sell you.

[wooden sorrel]

agree

[vernal sleet]

nearly 500 votes on those polls

[stone dirge]

Reddit numbers and Discord Numbers, appears you are completey incorrect *

90k for Reddit

151k for discord*

Idk why the images are funky

[vernal sleet]

151k

for discord

[stone dirge]

No way

[vernal sleet]

Your pic says 151,587, not 15,158 lol

[stone dirge]

Fixed, but damn I cant read my bad

just finished a 12hr xD

[vernal sleet]

Lol its cool

[stone dirge]

How can it be correct tho

Steamcharts info

[vernal sleet]

Concurrent is different from total

Its just how many people are on at one point in time

[stone dirge]

Your completely right xD

[vernal sleet]

You need sleep 😄

[stone dirge]

Oh well this is AI slop but it seems correct

1.5 Million copes but only 7K players avg atm

damn

[vernal sleet]

But in any case, MFG say they read these threads and all the feedback, they put polls on here to gauge community response, it seems they take their discord community as most likely their prime source of feedback, so its a little odd to disregard peoples suggestions from various sources, especially discord

[stone dirge]

Oh yeah 100%

[vernal sleet]

Yeah and they sold a lot more during the 0.4 discounted period, they got to something like 5th place on most sold for the week on the steam charts

So depending on refunds as i suspect a few did come back on 0.1 due to how bad the game launched, performance issues and the like

[stone dirge]

Most players play only on update realase too, to see how the game has changed, we had a lot of discord members mention that a few days after 0.4 dropped

[vernal sleet]

But i would think looking at some of the other EA type games this is fairly normal behaviour for games still in development

[stone dirge]

Anyways off to sleep I go before I mispell an entire sentence again

[wanton palm]

People should be bringing more than couple magazines. Insta-loading magazines shouldnt be a thing outside of bases. This also breeds people bringing 2 magazines, and constantly reloading.

[copper pelican]

Store data
#189 in daily active users
#99 in top sellers

(From steamdb)

[compact nacelle]

I think it's a habit of FPS gamers to always reload though

"I shot a single bullet, better reload"

[blazing kernel]

"Enemy down, this mag is empty"
29/30

[compact nacelle]

Hey you never know when that 1 singular bullet will save you

[wooden sorrel]

It does? There were over a million copies sold in the first month. Its been out for 2 years. Thats not even 10% of the playerbase

[wooden sorrel]

Yes, I reload any time I know im safe. Never know when that one bullet is a life saver. Difference between a headshot on the final spawn group or a click and possible death.

[wooden sorrel]

So what?

[wooden sorrel]

What polls and how does it change anything I said? 500 votes is a spec of dust just like I said.

[vernal sleet]

Well you mentioned that discord votes are in the 20 to 30 in polls, its currently tracking over 700 now

[stone dirge]

Indeed

729

[vernal sleet]

I guess Red Circles shouldn't be reworked, only 200 odd ppl agreed with that

[stone dirge]

clearly not enough

[vernal sleet]

Spec of dust

[wooden sorrel]

At the time of writing that’s all it was. 500 votes is still nothing when 10s of thousands play. Nothing I said was wrong.

[wooden sorrel]

Comparatively that’s what it is. You can laugh all you want but it’s true.

[wooden sorrel]

Should they? How do you know for instance what 100k other players might want if you got feedback of 200?

[stone dirge]

https://tenor.com/view/gumball-facepalm-amazing-world-of-gumball-ugh-what-gif-16163766

[wooden sorrel]

What is this supposed to mean? Are you really trying to say that 200 votes really means anything?

[bronze shore]

200 votes only matter when they confirm your opinion? 🤣

[wooden sorrel]

no 200 votes means nothing either way. You guys really need to learn reading comprehension.

[stark talon]

Completely agree. PvP-kits usually consist of only 2 mags and a stack or two of ammo. I think PvE is equally bad in this regard, although NPCs don't pose a danger at all.

[blazing kernel]

You don't need complete representation in any system otherwise it becomes systemically impossible or slow to get things done. Any amount of people is plenty as long as the change is good for most people and changes the game in the direction of the original vision. The up vote to down vote ratio is more important than raw up votes.
200 is plenty, but doesn't tell you the full story, 200 with 4 down says a lot more.

[wooden sorrel]

Who said anything about "complete representation?" A few emojies means nothing. Most people dont even see it because they dont bother looking. They just play the game. 200 people in fields of 10s of thousands quite literally means nothing. We can go in circles on this all day but your take is ridiculous.
This whole convo started because 1 guy claimed the majority would like this change. I said he couldnt possible know what the majority would or wouldn't like. They pointed to a few emojies as if that represented the majority.
Then they tried to change it to... well you don't know what the majority would want either. Then I said I never claimed to. Then someone else would jump in about some emojies as if it meant anything.

2 million + people purchased the game. They are currently getting less than 10k concurrent players. What do the words "most people" mean to you?

[wooden sorrel]

Again, so what? What difference does it matter if I bring 2 clips + some ammo or 10 clips?

[vernal sleet]

So i would think your opnion doesn't matter as well as its only 1

[copper pelican]

ever heard of market research and focus groups? 200 is a good sample for millions of customers. But more is always better and they should probably implement the polls in game

[stone dirge]

Well me and Drayvn werent gonna mention the obvious... but now you say it yes, thats exactly how that works :)

And not to mention the sample size for those polls is closer to 800 players

Which for an avg player count of 7-10k players daily is incredibly good, you would get a really good idea for the opinions most players have

This is exactly how national polls prior to an election are done, even if the sample size is 10-100k voters they get an incredibly good idea how the election might happen give or take a few %

[wooden sorrel]

I wont mention the obvious that 2 mil people purchased the game. Now you think 7-10k players daily is incredibly good.
Pffff we heard Hilary was going to beat Trump up until like the final minutes. lol. Yeah they know from their "polls" lol.

[stone dirge]

I never said that 7-10k players are good... huh?

I said that a sample size of 800 compared to 7-10k players is good

And I said it gives them a really good idea, not a perfect picture.

I chose my words carefully

[blazing kernel]

I said complete representation to gauge how much representation you would like to see, perhaps in different sample sizes. I'm not trying to attack you or anything, I'm trying to understand what you're specifically talking about since it confuses me.
You say that 200 people don't matter when tens of thousands play. Then you also say that most people don't bother looking. This language is incredibly vague and inconsistent. Wouldn't it be rational to assume that those 200 people that do bother to show up represent everyone else because they didn't bother? I mean there's nobody else.
People point to emojis(votes) because that's how the system is designed to point to what the community wants. So the developers likely take feedback from here, do a test run with the core audience(supporters), then post about it and see how things go. It's not a definitive way to say everyone will like it(initially with the emojis), but it is an important part of the process.

[wooden sorrel]

Well they been taking community feedback and doing polls and such all along no? If 200 or 500 or 1k votes is enough then you would think they wouldnt have lost a huge chunk of their playerbase no?

I read your words and understood them but you neglect the above

[stone dirge]

This server has 151K members, all of them had an opputnuity for 24hrs to vote on those polls, they either chose not to or dont interact with the server so missed them, that is completely their problem

[wooden sorrel]

Sure bud. Whatever. Im kinda done here. The initial convo was talking about... well the dude got 20 likes so the majority like it. Lets start back there shall we?

[wooden sorrel]

THAT WAS MY POINT

Listen... im here by myself standing up for my point of view that I dont like the idea. That it doesnt make the game better or more fun. I got like 4-5 people all with their own iterations on what I said that I have to talk in circles with.

[blazing kernel]

That does not follow, games lose large portions of their playerbase after launch since hype dies off, it's also directly tied to marketing and word of mouth where people get their friends to play a game they may not like.

[stone dirge]

I am looking and dont see where you made that point

[wooden sorrel]

Scroll up.... "Bro they put polls on discord that get 30 votes. Even polls on Reddit get 200-300 votes. There are 10s of thousands of players. Its common knowledge that the majority of people dont bother with discords and forums and stuff. They just play games,"

[stone dirge]

Yeah that seems correct... Im honestly unsure what we are arguing about anymore since weve gone in circles so much

[wooden sorrel]

Oh I see. So this game is destined to just have like 10 or 20k players out of over 2mil and the devs should be happy to have that

[wooden sorrel]

That is what I am trying to say. I made a comment. Then like 5 different people all took that single comment a different direction or iteration and misrep what I said and I have to answer all of you. So its all janky and people dont understand.

The actual comment started with... the 20 emojis doesnt mean that the majority like it.

Because the dude said look at the emojis... Im in the minority

[blazing kernel]

No what you said doesn't make a logical correlation.

[wooden sorrel]

FFS ok how did what I say not make logical sense

[stone dirge]

Oh yeah it doesnt, but that just sucks for the people that didnt care to vote

The option is available to everyone, so the "Majority / Minority" in this case is based of the total voters

[wooden sorrel]

Sure if you want to base a majority... and lets be real here this wasnt even talking about a poll but this dudes thread on this topic... if 20 people looked at the topic and said YAY and 2 people looked at the topic and said NOOO. Then of 22 people that would be the majority. That wasnt the argument. I said he couldnt posdibly know what the majority of players would want... because that was his claim

[stone dirge]

No he wouldnt know, but the players who voted are the ones who matter, the players who didnt dont

[blazing kernel]

You said that the game's lack of players is based on the feedback the game is receiving causing it to get worse and losing players. "Well they been taking community feedback and doing polls and such all along no? If 200 or 500 or 1k votes is enough then you would think they wouldnt have lost a huge chunk of their playerbase no?" this is untrue, it's more related to marketing and the total size of the tactical shooter market being relatively low. So the factor you mentioned is inconsequential. You can have a good product, but if nobody knows about it, you still have the good product in your hands.

[wooden sorrel]

Ok but again. This isnt a poll. This is a thread. A topic that he created. A claim that the majority liked it and I am in the minority. My comment was he couldnt possibly know what the majority THAT PLAY THIS GAME would want or not want

[stone dirge]

Yes thats true for every suggestion post

[wooden sorrel]

OIC so you are saying marketting was good enough to sell over 2 mil copies but not enough to keep but 10% of em. Yeah logical alright.

[wooden sorrel]

Ok and?

[stone dirge]

I dunno.. uhh.

No Poll or thread can represent a majority of players that play this game, but if its a good enough idea and enough players who choose to vote enjoy it, it definitely should be acted upon by MFG

[wooden sorrel]

So if you take 20 people here that like something and implement it and say 2k people leave the game because they dont like it... was it a good idea to implement it?

[blazing kernel]

Yeah if the game is done people stop playing.

[wooden sorrel]

Is the game done?

[molten garden]

Is that not why we have minimum sample sizes. Normally it's 30 for simple things but it's up to the analyst to determine a good sample size

[blazing kernel]

Yeah they got level 4 vendors, did all the missions and went on to play something else

Not everyone does laps around midnight sapphire for fun

[wooden sorrel]

Have you ever looked at steam charts? Maybe you should.

[stone dirge]

Probably not, but MFG also has to agree with the thread completely, they dont just do as we wish, we basically act as a creativity outlet for MFG

I have a feeling thats why they havent acted upon the red circles post after months of it exisiting

[wooden sorrel]

Ok but now again we are getting totally away from the original point and we are going to have this big long discussion again just to get back to where we were a few minutes ago

[blazing kernel]

Have you? Macro trends show people come back to the game after a major update, actually a LOT more came back after 0.4 released compared to 0.3. Which is impressive considering everyone has to play the same game again. A lot of people only play a game once. It kept it for a few months then declined as people finished up and moved on leaving core players.

[wooden sorrel]

and notice that I am also having to have a totally different discussion with yet another guy on the same point but in a completely different matter.

[blazing kernel]

Oh another trend, more people are playing now after the hype dropped than they did when the game first released. You can see the sharp fall off there at the start versus the current trend where more players are sticking around.

[wooden sorrel]

Ah yes. I see a HUUUUUUUUUUUGE drop of a cliff a month or so after launch. Then a small bump 6 months later. Then a slightly larger bump 6 months later. Then a nice big spike again almost 2 years after launch and then huge dropoff again. You of course are going to call this completely normal. An online multiplayer game that costs a lot of money in servers and staff to essentially have nobody play it outside a month here and there. Im sure thats what they are shooting for.

[molten garden]

Curious to see if the minimum will raise after this patch. I wonder if that dip leveling out will stay at that level, which is a VERY good sign considering it's about as high as 0.3's peak

[wooden sorrel]

lol

btw I agree they did do a lot of good things this patch and the game is headed the right direction.

My point is that if they continue to add friction that people dont like then its going to cause people to leave. And that 20 people giving a thumbs up is not a sign of a whether a majority would like something or not
and thats it really. Anything else is just 5 people making comments that take the conversation everywhere else.

Now back to my question... how does this make the game more fun for the majority of people.

[blazing kernel]

Well they did release the game in a very pitiful state, the abnormal part is people giving it a go again. They do deserve those player numbers with how it ran.

[molten garden]

I can see why 0.2 is only a small bump though. Even I didn't play 0.2 for more than a week

[blazing kernel]

If they add more difficulty and friction people will like the game more. Look at what an arcade fest Arena breakout became lol

Players left because you got 20 fps with terminator ai

[wooden sorrel]

I wouldnt want to see an arcade fest this game turn into but CoD is one of the most played games in FPS history and its an arcade fest. I think its trash but it is one none the less.
And your entire comment is just an opinion. It is not objective fact.

[blazing kernel]

Also I agree with this, this is more like a feeling the waters type of thing before the plunge in.

What is an opinion?

[wooden sorrel]

I edited... your comment

[blazing kernel]

You're incorrect it's a binary, it can be true or false.

As in it can be objectively false or objectively true. There's nothing subjective about it.

[molten garden]

We just have to accept that hardcore will always be niche. Probably why so many systems already are becoming arcade and simplified

[blazing kernel]

I really hate when people try to argue with me in bad faith, when I did my utmost best to show them respect, charity and understanding ;(

[wooden sorrel]

Completely incorrect. There is nothing objective about your statement. You cannot say that adding friction and more difficulty would make people like the game more. You have no idea if it will or not.

Im not arguing in bad faith at all

[blazing kernel]

They do add toggles for it though, perhaps more things can be toggled so people that like the systems can enjoy them.

[wooden sorrel]

But if you want to carry mags instead of ammo then you can already do so without a toggle

[molten garden]

Considering I don't believe this game is competitive that works. Some things though like health and durability and ballistics sadly can't have toggles

[blazing kernel]

It's objective, go look at the definition of it. What I said is either true or false it's not influenced by what I feel.

[blazing kernel]

You've been arguing in bad faith all this time so I can't be charitable anymore or it makes what I say look incompetent, so there will be more friction.

[wooden sorrel]

Ok let me make this easier for you. What you said isnt a fact. Its a feeling you have that you think is true but may not be.

[wooden sorrel]

I have not. Stop saying Ive been arguing in bad faith when I have had to keep up with comments and different arguments from like 5 different people at the same time.

Some of those people putting words in my mouth and saying things I never said because they lack reading comprehension or are arguing in bad faith themselves

[blazing kernel]

It's not a feeling it's physically observable and can be true or false. A feeling would be me saying "Hey I don't like this thing", people can like or dislike the change in difficulty, I really don't know where you're seeing the subjectivity.

[wooden sorrel]

You saying its true is the subjectivity. You dont know if its true or not.

[blazing kernel]

It's an objective prediction.
The logic is as follows:
People like tactical shooters.
Tactical shooters have a lot more friction than other games.
The friction is defined as challenges in preparation, survival and combat where enemies move dynamically and slowly.
So I can conclude that adding more difficulty and immersion will improve the experience of the game as people that play tactical shooters like it.

It is incorrect of me to say people will absolutely without a shadow of a doubt like it, so I apologize for that.

[wooden sorrel]

The only thing you can really conclude definitively is that some people will like it and some people wont. Who knows how many on either side. But can we stop getting in the weeds and discuss the actual topic now?

[blazing kernel]

Yes

[wooden sorrel]

mew? What does that mean?

[blazing kernel]

A typo(it can be ignored)

[wooden sorrel]

ok lol