Regarding the shared character mode between PvE and PvEvP

[naive monolith]

Improve the rewards for completed tasks in PvEvP mode.

This way, PvEvP mode can attract even more players.

Missions completed in PvE mode could have lower XP and money rewards than a mission completed in PvEvP mode.

[calm tendon]

Your increased reward in PvEvP is player loot. Thats all it should remain

[edgy quail]

Given that the game is explicitly "PvE-first", the idea that you're making game changes to try to encourage players into Warfare feels backwards.

[glossy kraken]

I understand this suggestion, however, as a PVE player I don't want to feel coerced to play PVP

[naive monolith]

But you can continue in PvE, your rewards will be there.

[carmine iron]

I think that's what this is intended to do - punish people for not playing a preferred game mode.

[edgy quail]

There's also a sense of "PvP superiority" in that it's the "harder mode" and thus PvP players should "earn more".

That's not necessarily the tone of this post, but it's a very common theme when these suggestions get brought up.

[glossy kraken]

Agreed

[wintry latch]

If this is trying to be like playing Dying light at night vs day time then it shouldn't lower PVE mode rewards and punish those people but only increase PvEvP rewards

[edgy quail]

PvP diehards need to realize that the only thing that's going to encourage PvE players to play the Warfare mode is if you disable PvP on it.

[calm tendon]

PvEvP is already a mode where you can get more loot, because you can kill the person that got there before you and vacuumed it up ahead of you. In PvE, if you aint first youre last. Yall already have the upper hand on loot.

[glossy kraken]

Facts

[wintry latch]

I would play warfare if there were no guns allowed and everyone ran around with knives only

[wintry latch]

Best feeling in the world in PvE is to find an empty server and be the first to every high loot location

[carmine iron]

Dying Light is kind of a bad comparison here - that's primarily single player/co-op, with everyone working together for the same rewards at the same time, with everyone being rewarded equally still.

This is more incentivising just being in a mode gets you better rewards vs not being in it. That's just punishment, whatever way you cut it.

[wintry latch]

I tried to play devil's advocate and failed

[naive monolith]

Some of the answers here seem like a joke....
Nothing would change in PvE.

[wintry latch]

If your goal is to coerce people to play PvP there are other ways to do that. More rewards in warfare than joint ops is not the way.

I personally prefer PvE because it encourages slower more tactical play. Moving fast gets you killed and being cautious keeps you alive.

In 0.1, the last time I tried warfare, i found that the play style that dominates is the opposite. Move fast, shoot first, spray n pray. That's how you defeat the player in front of you. With recent changes to PvP with the circles and whatnot I feel like this play style is reinforced

[desert copper]

I get what you're after, but you're not addressing the issue PvE players don't play PvEvP.

The goal, if I understand it, is to make PvEvP a more attractive game mode and attract more PvE players to PvEvP. But, you're not addressing the fact that those who play PvE are playing it because they don't want to deal with other players trying to kill them.

Making PvEvP more attractive by making the rewards better inevitably makes the PvE crowd feel like they're not playing as efficiently as they could. They could get more reward for their time by playing PvEvP which they don't want to do.

Keeping the rewards the same prevents pressuring PvE players into a game mode they don't want to play.

[glossy kraken]

Well said

[edgy quail]

That's basically Marathon right now!

[swift sand]

But why would you wanna force PvE player into PVPVE because you like PVP better

[wintry latch]

What happens with PvP is only the most competitive people and streamers are left playing and the more casual PvP enjoyers are left in the dust

[swift sand]

There are more alternatives then simply "give pvp player more loot" tho, casual player quit bcz currently PVP is very punishing.

Perhaps a middle ground would be better.

[wintry latch]

Really just needs changes to encourage tactical play and punish reckless fast-paced behavior

[wanton minnow]

There is way how to get more people in PvEvP. Less run and gun.
Fixed ballistics so if you actually hit someone when they do "run and gun", they die or are forced to stop due to injury.
No stims that heal you or can bring you up from coma. No stims that allow you to do said gun and run. No pain meds that allow you to continue fighting after being shot up during dumb pushing like cod player.
Change LPVOs so you cant mag-dump in them. So aim, precision and actually waiting for good shot are rewarded over dumb spraying in vicinity of enemy player.
These would actually make large group of currently PVE players to try PvEvP because tactical gameplay is rewarded over adhd sprinting like idiot from COD.
Aka make this game's PVP as anti-streamer as possible and you get bunch of pve players on pvevp aswell.

[warped loom]

Personally, and this is just my view --- I'd much prefer if this game had no PVE mode, though I realize many people would not play if this was the case. There's always communities that want PVE only (other games took a stand against pve only). There's nothing like the feeling that anywhere you are you might not be safe, and that feeling mostly goes away in PVE where the more you play the more you know where AI is and their patrols, etc, and you know where you'll be 100% safe. The main point of the 3 factions is in my view intended for pvp situations.

I think it's fair to say that PVE mode carries a lot less risk, I would say very minimal of losing kit, as most often dying will just mean you go back to your body. Questing in PVE mode is definitely going to be a breeze, so for the purpose of leveling up vendors, doing PVE mode has a clear advantage imo. Looting I can see it being harder at times, only because of the congestion.

Warfare mode has the "reward" of looting your enemies after winning a fight, but that reward is quite minimal / not enough. The risk outweighs the reward. You can easily die to a basic weapon kit that you wouldn't even bother looting if you won the fight. I'd argue that people just enjoy the PVP potential (whether naturally occurring or purposely looking for pvp), instead of playing warfare for the "potential greater reward".

[soft crane]

I agree. People who want cross progression just want to cheese the hard tasks where they required to go to POI's that are mostly contested by the enemy factions. It makes no sense that you can progress on easy mode and reap the rewards on PVEVP. It also makes the PVEVP servers way lifeless because there are very few people who dare to roam further than the starter areas. And who blames them? when the game gives you a cheesy route to achieve the same goals many will take that route and the result is boring PVP experience.

[dense juniper]

The stims are a sleeper problem there. What's the point to creating entire weight, stamina, etc systems when a simple injector bypasses them, and you can just lick some charcoal to get rid of the intoxication?

Between the stims and the red circles of doom, I want no part of PvP.

If they add stupid skills like Tarkov, I'll be even less inclined to PvP, because those only widen the gap between no-life PvPers and more casual players.

Suggestions like the OPs exist to punish people like me for not wanting to deal with them and their crap, and should be roundly denounced. Punishing people for not wanting to play with you is rather selfish.

[wild ginkgo]

This right here would do it. If I knew actual tactical knowledge and use of terrain and environment, and using my brain were weighted way more heavily than someone's ability to flick and press keys, I'd be playing pvevp because I'm confident in my actual knowledge and experience versus my hands. 😃

[soft crane]

If you just want to play PVE why do you care if your progression will not be transferred to PVP?

[dense juniper]

If you read the OP, this isn't actually about shared progression, its about nerfing PvE players progression because reasons.

Considering the OP wants me to earn less for not playing his way, and with him, my post in here is entirely warranted.

[soft crane]

Well if you read it really carefully it isn't about nerfing you but about buffing PvP.
But my question is due to the thumbs down for my post where I suggested just removing cross progression. Why do people who play only PVE anyway have an issue with it?

[dense juniper]

Buffing one thing is indirectly nerfing the other. The modes don't exist in exclusion to each other, no matter how you manipulate the language to make it sound better

And the reason I care is the same reason others in here do. If you want people to try PvP, constantly punishing them for not PvPing makes it worse not better

Its been noted by more than a couple of people over the many times this conversation has happened that half the reason they play PvP is because they can at least recoup losses in PvE, unlike games like Tarkov

Killing cross progression causes those people to remain in PvE too, further killing the PvP population

I may have no desire to play the current implementation of Warfare, but that doesn't mean I won't wind up in there at some point. Take away that cross progression, and I won't bother trying it when the red circles die, guaranteed

I don't have the time to keep pace leveling one character right now, because I have a job and shit to do outside of gaming. What makes you think I have the time to level two characters?

[soft crane]

No? Buffing one thing isn't nerfing the other. PVP and PVE are like completely different games. It has no effect on you. Basides maybe making you feel a little fomo for not playing PVP for the rewards. But if you just stick with PVE there isn't any reason for you to care. The people who play on PVP server play a different game than you.

You can always try PVP. You have a character there. You just progress separately. This isn't a punishment. you literally progress in the game you play.. What is the point rewarding people for NOT playing the game? The game doesn't need to bribe you to play it. You need to WANT to play it. If you don't want to play PVP so don't. But if you do, than it needs to be on fair grounds.

Maybe they should also give us a button that if we press we get a stash full of guns and best ammo and max traders? because without that I don't want to play the game? So it is better because more people will want to try it out? It makes no sense. There shouldn't be shortcuts in a game with progression system.

[flat belfry]

If you decouple PvP and PvE progression, wouldn’t that run the risk of getting less PvP players in general?

On principle, PvP should be more rewarding than PvE, because there’s more risk. However in practice, it creates fomo for PvE players and they will feel forced to PvP and be very unhappy about it. There’s a lot to learn with how Dune handled trying to mix these player bases, it is oil and water.

PvP servers need to attract players with engaging gameplay - not exclusive rewards (cosmetics are fine though)

[soft crane]

No it will not. Because if you mainly play PVP but do the hard tasks on PVE than you will just stick with PVP, and if you main PVE and try PVP here and there than you will not be missed anyway.

The problem is that people want to play PVP but also cheese the tasks.

[flat belfry]

I don’t think we’ll ever see the real answer because I just don’t see them doing that. But who knows

For me, I think having some rails on the experience would be fun.

Maybe a dynamic server event where we fight for control of Midnight Sapphire for two hours

But anyway, I think it will be a while before we see huge changes to PvP. It’s a 10:1 difference or something insane.

[soft crane]

10:1 in players?

[dense juniper]

Yes. The only number we got from the devs a while back was 10:1 PvE:PvP split

[flat belfry]

Yeah, that’s a huge gap. The proper business move is to cater to the 10

Dune Awakening refused to budge on this PvP vs PvE topic and they bled so many players that they closed a lot of servers and merged them.

Then guess what player base their first huge update this year was geared towards?

[soft crane]

If that's doesn't tell you that PVE mode kills the PVP one so I don't know what else to say. You don't need high player numbers in PVE. You do need them on PVP. Right now you open a random server on PVP and it is just people jorking off in the starter town. No one goes to far POI's in PVP because it is a dumb risk when you can do it for way less risk. Remove cross progression and people who want to main PVP will have to man up and do their tasks there. It will only increase the player count.

[flat belfry]

PvE didn’t kill PvP in Dune. It was a forcibly mixed population with the best rewards locked behind PvP

[soft crane]

It isn't the proper buisness move man. It is like what I said about a button that just gives you free stuff. Surely you will have 1000:1 ratio on that. because who say no to free stuff? It doesn't mean it is the right buisness move to cater to these players and just make the game easier and easier

[flat belfry]

the players just decided to bounce

It is the proper move lol. MFG would rather have more players than less.

[soft crane]

Why do you think they will have less players if the make PVP separate? PVE playersd will just keep playing PVE.

We are not talking about merging or deleting one mode

[dense juniper]

Why invest dev time in a tiny playerbase, when you can invest in a much larger one?

The larger one is far, far more likely to word-of-mouth friends in. And PvE here is huge because there's been a massive dearth of good coop tac shooters with this quality and quantity of gameplay and content

They've found a large, exploitable niche, and they're exploiting it by being PvE first.

Also, something something dev resources aren't infinite. Separating modes is an immediate doubling of workload, minimum

For a fraction of the playerbase

[soft crane]

Removing cross progression doesn't take dev time 😂

[dense juniper]

Its the same issue with "optional" gameplay, tools, systems, etc.

[soft crane]

The larget player base in PVE are just the PVP players doing their tasks there

[dense juniper]

Still PvE players

And...i sincerely doubt its just PvPers playing their tasks

[soft crane]

The game is still sedigned around three factions being hostile to each other. It is PVE first in the PVEVP environment. The PVE environment makes no sense. Why have 3 faction there anyway?

[flat belfry]

Why do you feel the need to separate them or create some sort of exclusive item reward for PvP servers? If you like PvP so much then play it for the love of it like the rest of us do

I do agree with having 3 different factions, it's weird in PvE

[dense juniper]

Because otherwise people would, I dunno, move to PvP when they finished their tasks, instead of quitting, as you lot keep grousing about?

[soft crane]

Because PVP servers only work if there are players playing. Unlike PVE.

[dense juniper]

Thats...not going to make people play PvP

[flat belfry]

Right, so I am saying the incentive needs to be gameplay related - not forced using items or by separating

[dense juniper]

You cannot force someone to do something they don't want to

[flat belfry]

And I do think they know that

[soft crane]

Ofc it will. Because they want to play the game the way it is meant to be played

[dense juniper]

And giving bonuses for doing the unwanted thing is basically the devs saying the PvE players time is worth less than the PvP players time because reasons

[soft crane]

It is gameplay related... play the game get rewards in the game you play

[flat belfry]

That's not the same

[dense juniper]

When, to the devs, player time ought to be equal

Because they just needs players period

[flat belfry]

And regardless, they're not going your route Turtle, trust me

there's been too many games recently and even in their own internal testing. Make sure your PvE base is happy, and your wallet wil be happy

Even Tarkov learned this lol

Look, just play PvP and go hunting players, stop complaining.

If you can't find any, the reason isn't because of PvE. It's because PvP isn't fun. Youre not going to make it fun by adding exclusive guns

[dense juniper]

Like i said earlier, the red rings of death, stims, and the potential for stupid skills a la Tarkov are all rather off-putting to me PvPing in the first place

[flat belfry]

LZ camping, chilling in bushes until someone walks by

[soft crane]

No man it is because they have poor game design choice that rewards progression in another mode. It is very simple. The player numbers are an indication that people will do what is META. and right now the meta is to progress fast in PVE. It is very simple

[dense juniper]

Putting more walls up isn't going to incentivize me to play, and holding goodies over my head is just manipulative

[flat belfry]

They have excellent game design choice: they chose PvE

[soft crane]

But no one wants YOU to play.

[dense juniper]

Trying to use psychological tricks to get players is how we got MTX hell in other games

[soft crane]

I want the PVP players to play

[dense juniper]

You do, because the PvP servers are dead

[soft crane]

I want the PVP players, not you. You are a pve player.

[dense juniper]

Make better gameplay, and I'll play PvP. But don't punish me for not playing PvP instead of making a better game. That's just insulting to me

[flat belfry]

The PvP players are playing though

[soft crane]

How can they make beter gameplay when the players don't even play the game?

[scenic quarry]

Even Nikita has admitted at least 60% of the playerbase for Tarkov is PVE players

[dense juniper]

I'm also a potential PvP player, as I have stated several times in here. Ignoring that doesn't make you right, just ignorant

At least read what I write ffs

[past chasm]

It literally is a harder mode simply based on the fact there are players you have to fight to survive. AI is not capable of out thinking or outplaying you, only players are.

[dense juniper]

Begrudgingly LMAO

[flat belfry]

Yea he begrudgingly pocketed more money

and probably begrudgingly bought a ferrari

I bet its more than 60% too LMAO

and Tarkov is PvP centered

[dense juniper]

No, no, no, that's just after he decided to try and scam us out of more money instead of owning his mistake.

He fought PvE until the bitter end first

[elfin verge]

they should just make the different gamemodes seperate characters

[scenic quarry]

Probably why else would SPT have such a big following

[soft crane]

The "potential" pvp players are probably much less than actual PVP players that just go to pve because it is the meta

[flat belfry]

I think that was suggested, i don't think it will work for GZW

They already have it shared - it will just make people mad
Alhough* I agree that it shouldn't matter, but as I have stated before, reality is different

I do think PvP is also absolutely harder than PvE

But i still don't think it's a reason to separate the progression (because they started with this) nor to have exclusive rewards

[soft crane]

Why does it matter if they started with this. it is an alpha.. things will change

[flat belfry]

This won't

Trust me, they got a big injection of cash from focusing on PvE players

[soft crane]

maybe it wont I am not arguing about the future i am arguing about how bad game design choice it is

[edgy quail]

The only numbers that have been shared with us by MFG is that the PvE crowd outnumbers PvP by about 10-to-1.

And we know that there are a significant number of players that "transition" to PvP once they finish their questing and tasks. This is a very meaningful influx of players into the PvP pool mid to late wipe.

I guarantee you that if they had to start from square one after putting in however many dozens of hours into PvE progression to participate into PvP that the vast, vast majority of them would opt out - ultimately harming the PvP player count.

[flat belfry]

they're going to stick with this. But they will work on PvP in some other way, hopefully it's actual gameplay

[scenic quarry]

I think MFG has seen the writing on the wall about PVP, its not massively popular for these types of games

They will keep it as an option but PVE is where they will mostly focus on

[flat belfry]

Yeah, i mean in other threads similar to this - people asked for PvP events

I like that idea

[soft crane]

So why the whole 3 factions design? Why open world MMO? just make a PVE game. why do I need other people running around me doing their own stuff and killing my bosses? The whole concept of the game makes no sense if you take the PVP aspect from it

[flat belfry]

even a dynamic server event like for the next 2 hours - fight over Midnight Sapphire

[past chasm]

Bro how the fuck are ppl scared of pvp in 2026? Every fuckn game that comes out mfs complain about having any kind of challenge. This game is supposed to be hardcore and punishing.

[scenic quarry]

Do also remember that MFG have said they don't want to have wipes too, so having your progression shared does help with that

[edgy quail]

That's going to happen irrespective of the number of factions.

[flat belfry]

I think the way I see them going is keeping shared progression and having big PvP events where you loop from farming up gear in PvE, then taking it into these PvP events

and losing all of it

[scenic quarry]

The seperation of the 3 factions are most likely going to become more apparent further down the line when more core systems have been implemented

[scenic quarry]

Pretty much, thats how i see them doing away with the wipes

[flat belfry]

idk though, they need to flesh out their core systems before they move forward

[elfin verge]

gear fear

[edgy quail]

I think you'll find the prevailing attitude is that people aren't "scare of PvP", they simply don't want to put up with the toxicity that tends to come with "the hardcore PvP players".

[flat belfry]

The thing is they need to keep their PvE playerbase as a priority - if you lose these players, the chances of them coming back to play a new update are low

but you can absolutely grow a PvP base from a larger PvE population

So I really don't see them prioritizing PvP until they are near complete with their PvE core loops

[soft crane]

What you don't understand is that farming gear or doing quests and then just coming for the PVP servers for pure PVP isn't going to work. Who are you going to PVP with? only the poor bastards who haven't figured out that they play on the wrong server? It doesn't sustain itself. You need to have the WHOLE loop of tasking-loot farming - pvping in the same lobby. otherwise it all falls apart.

[edgy quail]

PvP isn't going to pay the bills. Esp with the numbers that we've been told. If the PvP crowd wants the game to survive, they need to accept that PvE has to be the priority.

[elfin verge]

what is the toxicity? bc honestly the most toxic people i seen is the pve players

[scenic quarry]

We are still missing a lot of content and features to

[flat belfry]

No I understand. I just dont agree with your assessment. The loop is working fine as it is

[edgy quail]

Estimates put the game somewhere around 35% done-ish?

[past chasm]

Can you give an example of toxicity? Cause the point is to kill each other first and if they arent hacking you can literally just out think them or take the L

[scenic quarry]

And honestly we have no idea how the gameplay loop of ground zero is going to work, so PVP could change completely because of that as will PVE

[soft crane]

Disagree. It isn't working because there is no reason to task and loot on PVP.

[flat belfry]

But still - players are on PvP

[soft crane]

Yeah, jorking in the starter town

[flat belfry]

if you feel like the server is dying down you want to log out and relog and it will put you back in with players

[soft crane]

and then going to PVE for the POIs

[flat belfry]

I never experienced PvP in the starter town myself it's always been around the T2 areas for me

[soft crane]

I mean your own faction starter town

[flat belfry]

Yeah

[edgy quail]

You can just browse the discord and see it all over the place. Reddit gets some, but not as much in my experience.

But you see A LOT of it actually in-game as well. Watch some streams. You'll hear random racism and just really vile remarks from players. You get literally none of that in PvE.

It's even worse if you're a woman. I've seen female players get all sorts of shitty comments in PvP. Haven't seen it in PvE.

[scenic quarry]

I would get this conversation about PVP and PVE etc if we are nearing content and feature complete stages and we have ground zero fully realised, but at the moment even PVE is still lacking as much as things have improved from 0.3, so why are we trying to push PVP when even PVE hasn't been fully realised?

[flat belfry]

Exactly.

Just accept the fact that it is not their current focus. You'll be back when they improve the PvP population - or not

[elfin verge]

bruh

[flat belfry]

And it won't matter because if they have a strong PvE player base: there will be PvP players born out of it

[past chasm]

Bro 🤣 i thought you meant actual gameplay problems. Ppl need to man tf up ur playin a game for adults. Im black u think im here whining about gettn called the n word on a videogame?

[scenic quarry]

We are still lacking hideouts, skills, crafting, tier 4 and 5 AI, ground zero, weapons, gear, valuables, loot etc

Shouldn't we maybe focus on those things before we focus on trying to balance the 2 modes?

[edgy quail]

So you ask for examples of toxicity, I cite them, and then your response is "people should just ignore all that".

Why did you even bother asking if you didn't care in the first place?

[past chasm]

Yea PvP players are all Chads confirmed

[elfin verge]

i respect that some people just cant take a offensive things online but saying thats why people play pve is crazy

[edgy quail]

I'm not saying it's why at all. I was responding to someone asking about examples of it and that I haven't witnessed any of those behaviors in PvE. Big difference.

[flat belfry]

Is this game so dissimilar from Tarkov that you can't just play Tarkov for PvP?

[soft crane]

In order to improve first they need to see how it plays. It is hard to figure out the issues in PVP when a PVP fight happens once in forever.. First they need people to stop cheesing quests and loot in PVE and actually play the main mode of the game, then they can figure out how to make it better.

[flat belfry]

Sorry to ask it like this, but Drayvn is right, the game is nowhere close to complete in it's core

[elfin verge]

and thats fine like i said i respect it but the same goes for pvp i havent heard 1 n word which is shocking in pvp yet

[past chasm]

I was genuinely curious as to what u meant i thought it had to do with the actual game. But its literally just ppl bein ppl. I havent been called anything crazy in pvp in my 1200 hrs of it. Nor have i heard any such thing and it doesnt affect your mute button or your ability to run pvp and get kills

[elfin verge]

i just dont see the appeal of playing a hardcore looter shooter to just kill AI all the time bc its easy to cheese them thats all

[flat belfry]

Fair, but a lot of other people are enjoying it - meanwhile you can play other games that have a more fleshed out PvP loop

[past chasm]

Bro EXACTLY. an while tryin to be unbiased i was fed my own thoughts. Ppl are scared of pvp bc it basically hurts their feelings.

[elfin verge]

i agree but why not split the two progression of pve and pvp

[flat belfry]

Because the PvE base will get mad about this

and I've said this - I don't think it's a big deal

But the majority will

[elfin verge]

but they are gonna play pve....

[flat belfry]

i agree bro

I am just telling you

facts

[robust heart]

if you split the progression there is a 0% chance those pve players will join in on pvp

[flat belfry]

I am telling you what will happen

[past chasm]

PvE gets mad at everything theyre the problem with gaming. I dont care about pve but its crazy how hard they fight to say pvp is ass when theyre just ass at gaming

[soft crane]

The people who get mad about this aren't the PVE base. it is the PVP base who want to cheese

[scenic quarry]

Lols, sure thing bud

[elfin verge]

exactly then they cant complain when pvp players suggest things they want to see in "pvp"

[flat belfry]

No the PvE player base will get mad too

Im not disagreeing with you guys that it doesn't matter and shouldnt

[soft crane]

no they want because they just keep playing pve ans sing koombaya

[flat belfry]

if someone only plays pve why does it matter

BUT

the reality is

their bread is made from PvE players

[scenic quarry]

So whats the reason why you guys want PVE and PVP to be seperate?

[soft crane]

And besides that f them who cares about people getting mad? If this is a good design choice than they should have a spine and do it.

[elfin verge]

i just dont want whats happening to tarkov happen to this game

[flat belfry]

unless you can economically overpower them, you won't matter

Well I got bad news for you buddy...

[scenic quarry]

Whats happening to tarkov?

[robust heart]

splitting the modes and the playerbase is exactly whats happening in tarkov, why do you think it will improve things in this game?

[past chasm]

They will bro. Playin pve in a pvp game is literally just telling you they either are bad, new to gaming or cant handle a little challenge. Theyre gonna complain about eveything until probably far after 1.0 is released

[flat belfry]

They won't do it - youre better off playing a different game that is more PvP focused

Arma?

[soft crane]

"economically overpower them" what are they going to do? refund?

[edgy quail]

Because if you do that, then the PvP population suffers. You get a lot of pepole that move to PvP from PvE after they complete quests. They're not going to do that if they have to start at square one after putting dozens of hours into the game.

And that ignores all of the people that play both modes pending the friends they're playing with.

[flat belfry]

EFT?

[flat belfry]

No, they wont attract them during updates and expansions

less sales

Do you not understand the business aspect here

[past chasm]

They can attract them while making pvp a better experience.

[flat belfry]

I am agreeing with you that split progression shouldn't matter in principle

Other way around spartan

[soft crane]

Who cares? they play PVE. they don't matter. they have zero effect of the game because PVE isn't dependant on player base. Once a PVE player bought your game you won. But with PVP players - you have to keep them playing because PVP is dependant on playerbase

[scenic quarry]

Why don't they just add more content and features that they said they will do and see how it improves the game first then balance the 2 modes?

[elfin verge]

add events that will make players want to play pvp bc the only thing seperating the pve and pvp people are obviously PVP and the pvp chads that go to midnight saphire to get money on pve then go to pvp and buy the best gear is a cheesy way to get the edge

[flat belfry]

And who cares about PvP players?

You matter even less

You go, so what?

[soft crane]

The devs who want to atract other players

[flat belfry]

PvP servers are dead? So. What?

[past chasm]

This right here. PvE is goin to be the same the whole time.

[scenic quarry]

Is that why all PVP games have seen a decline of their playerbase recently, how is Marathon doing, how is Arena Breakout doing

[robust heart]

how is that cheesy if its a system put in place by the devs of the game?

[flat belfry]

They could have zero PvP servers

and it wouldnt matter

[soft crane]

If I want to play a single player game I don't care about player count. I just play it. If I want a PVP game I first need to make sure people are playing

[flat belfry]

because you dont make a difference in their bottom line

[edgy quail]

The PvE playerbase outnumbers the PvP playerbase by about an order of magnitude. We were told from MFG it's literally 10-to-1 in favor of PvE.

Why would it make literally any economical sense to invest in "trying to encourage PvE players to play PvP"?

[flat belfry]

It doesnt matter if the PvP player base dies out completely

[elfin verge]

so its a feature to get max traders on pve then go to pvp server and out gun everyone else who is sticking to pvp to get the full experience that the game has to offer?

[flat belfry]

it won't make a difference

[soft crane]

If no people play pvp - no new pvp player.
if no people play pve - new players can still come because they don't need other players

[past chasm]

Bc ppl are becoming snowflakes soft as baby shit.

[flat belfry]

There is zero need for pvp players at all

[elfin verge]

do you play pve or pvp?

[edgy quail]

And let's be honest: for the VAST, VAST majority of PvE players, the only thing that's going to get them to play on a PvP server is if you disable PvP on it.

[scenic quarry]

Is that why you want PVP and PVE seperated? Because you can't handle PVP players loading up in PVE?

[soft crane]

Huh? And single player games are not in decline? what a weird take

[edgy quail]

Both, but primarily PvE in GZW.

[robust heart]

ok and? you are free to go do that as well

[past chasm]

Is this gear fear or bc theyre physically scared? Like for real why not? Whats so bad about pvp

[flat belfry]

single player games killed it this year

[scenic quarry]

When did i mention Single Player games?

[elfin verge]

that went over your head didnt it

[edgy quail]

The idea that you'd rather lose players in PvP because you don't want players to take gear that they acquired in PvE is wild to me. The playerbase is already so small compared to PvE, you would think folks wouldn't want to push people away.

[flat belfry]

Helldivers succeeds without PvP despite people clamoring for it initially

[soft crane]

And this is how the mode dies. because the mode revolves around a loop of loot,task,fight. if you the the looting and tasking you are just left with a broken loop.

[robust heart]

all Im seeing that you choose to limit yourself to one mode and want to punish other people who do not make the same choice you do

[flat belfry]

The mode can die and it's okay

Wait are you talking about PvP mode?

[soft crane]

Why is it ok? you don't like the game?

[flat belfry]

Yeah, it can die and it won't matter for the game's health overall

[past chasm]

Exactly theres no point in getting night vision, lasers, ap ammo, building a decent kit when its just to fight ai and loot the same shit off them.

[flat belfry]

No, i like the game, Im just telling you that PvP isn't necessary for them to succeed

[elfin verge]

wheres the fun in that then

[flat belfry]

You misunderstand your impact in this game

[edgy quail]

People just don't want to deal with other players killing them. I imagine virtually anything you can imagine is a reason why someone doesn't like it.

For me, I just don't want to have to rat my way through the game. I like being able to chill and grind without worrying about someone sitting in a corner with a backpack full of food and water for 2 hours waiting for someone to walk by.

But I'll play other PvP games.

[elfin verge]

on pve you cant get into intense cqb fights in ybl or anything it takes so much content away from the game

[soft crane]

They can always scam their players, stop developing and go home. sure

See what happens the next game they develop

[flat belfry]

They can delete PvP mode and focus solely on PvE and they will still succeed.

[robust heart]

why is that a problem for you if someone else gets a lesser experience

[flat belfry]

They can then add a new PvP mode after they burned that player base

and they will come back

This is the reality

I am sorry

[soft crane]

Because eveyone loves a scammy dev

[flat belfry]

Im not saying they will

[scenic quarry]

Lols this conversation is hilarious

[soft crane]

you just have very weird takes

[edgy quail]

They lose the majority of the big streamer voices - who pull in a lot of players (many of which end up being PvE players as well). So it's a good symbiotic relationship.

But it remains important that the experience on both line up.

[flat belfry]

Im just telling you the PvP population isn't as important as you think it is

It's not weird, you just can't understand that this is a business

[soft crane]

When did I say the pvp pop is important? it is you who keep pushing there

[past chasm]

Yea but then what? Like you loot, task and then loot and task? Theres no challenge left after you get tier 2 weapons you can basically walk into an area with a pistol and loot the ai and easily beat them.

[flat belfry]

And the money isn't coming from the PvP population

[elfin verge]

thats fine if someone wants to be pve but the arguement of pve is more important and basically just get rid or neglect pvp is dumb

[flat belfry]

Oh ok, then just take the L and let them finish PvE core loops then. Stop asking for PvP changes

[robust heart]

0.3 was basically only a pvp patch, thats a wild statement

[past chasm]

If they bought the game it comes from everyone, someone playing on the pve server doesnt generate funds

[soft crane]

You don't have a clear seperation between PVP and PVE to make that observation because right now EVERYONE is on PVE because it is THE META

[elfin verge]

did you play release?

[edgy quail]

I'm exclusively solo and there's still some challenge to clearing T3 zones with zero support.

But even if there were not, why do people like any repetitive activity?

[robust heart]

yes

[soft crane]

They can develop what they want. Seperating the progression isn't something they need to work on that much

[past chasm]

Ig youre right. I personally would have all this high tier gear in my stash and think damn im bout to shoot more bots with this anyways

[robust heart]

splitting the playerbase is not gonna be the boon you guys think

[edgy quail]

0.3 absolutely got a HUGE amount of PvP support - moreso than I think anyone expected. Almost all of it came directly from what PvP voices asked for.

[flat belfry]

Aight cool, Cause they wont.

[robust heart]

it isnt working for tarkov its not gonna work for gray zone either

[elfin verge]

so you know how far pvp has come. im not saying the devs said any of that, that is what the playerbase is saying

[robust heart]

all you'll do is end up with less and less pvp players

[flat belfry]

I been trying to tell them this and they keep telling me it's a weird take lol

Perhaps they are innocent and havent seen what happened in every other game that dealt with this debate

PvE won every single time

[soft crane]

Splitting is better than killing a mode. PVE doesn't need a large playerbase. Splitting the player base is something that hurts only the pvp. but even that is better than jusy killing pvp all together

[robust heart]

thats why I thought you saying they are neglecting pvp a wild statement

[robust heart]

its effectively its the same thing

[soft crane]

no it is not. imagine you take takrkov and make it cross progression

you kill the game loop

[flat belfry]

Im not sure, I think splitting the base kills both. and kills the game ultimately

[soft crane]

it is much better to have it split

[flat belfry]

It is not

[robust heart]

in terms of killing pvp is what I mean

[soft crane]

no it doesn't kill pve. you can play pve alone.

[robust heart]

and I honestly dont think cross-progression is killing anything

[soft crane]

you can be the only one in the world playing a pve game and you wouldn't care

[edgy quail]

I believe having a PvP mode is important. I do believe it needs to be the second priority though and MFG clearly agrees unequivocally. I also think it's important that both modes "look and feel as close as possible".

I don't want PvP to go away. But I also don't want to see the PvP crowd think that the "solution" is to "build features that force PvE players to engage in PvP" (which is a very, very common theme in the suggestion forum).

[scenic quarry]

If they split progression PVP will still slowly die off

[robust heart]

thats what Im getting at

splitting the community will do nothing good

[flat belfry]

they dont understand this though

we been at it for the past hour

[scenic quarry]

Why split PVP and PVE when we don't know what features and systems that will be added down the road would change things

[flat belfry]

maybe to iterate on pvp as development progresses?

[soft crane]

It is because these games revolve around people going around doing their tasks and looting. if they don't need to do that, and they just log in solely for PVP with no other objective, then the whole loop breakes. Where will they go to find PVP? the POI? but no one has a reason to be there. Because they are in PVE.

[scenic quarry]

Why don't we come back to this conversation after the game is near completion when we can make a proper assesment of how the game will work

[edgy quail]

I have 3 times the opportunities to encounter random people and have unplanned interactions on PvE. I pseudo-squad with folks all the time while questing or help people clear areas they're trying to get to, etc. no matter their faction.

Just "being PvE" does not in any way imply that you're "playing alone" at all.

[robust heart]

what is the loop intended by the devs of this game?

[soft crane]

yeah you also have 3 times the probability of other people killing the boss for you, clearing the POI for you, looting everything and making you wait 20m untill everything respawn again. You only need some people with you but you really don't need a very large playerbase

[tranquil veldt]

Why do you think SPT is so popular????

[scenic quarry]

Don't you think maybe its because the game hasn't got all its content, features and systems yet?

[edgy quail]

That is -literally- exactly the same as in PvP.

[soft crane]

The same kind of loop. Going around POIs tasking and looting and when you go to POIs that are very close to the other factions you get higher risk of fighting other people

in PE the whole idea of 3 factions lose all of its meaning. Tasking on a far away POI is just the same as tasking close to your base

[scenic quarry]

Don't you think when we have ground zero, hideouts, skills, crafting, more conent, bosses, tasks, events, when the game nears completion that there will be more to do so people will be more spread out so not everyone is going for the same things over and over

[edgy quail]

I'll say this: as far as "PvP vs PvE" threads go in this discord, this has been one of the more constructive bits of discorse that I've seen.

Even some of the people that I think "don't get it" are being polite and engaging.

So, honestly, good on all of you.

[scenic quarry]

Its like you've decided that PVP has to work NOW when not even PVE has been fleshed out, THE GAME ISN'T COMPLETE!

[soft crane]

maybe, but it will probably still be the same core loop and even worse on PVE. I imagine GZ will attract all faction to fight in PVP. Idk who it is going to play on PVE.. it is pobably going to be lame

[tranquil veldt]

If anything PVE needs dynamic AI ala SAIN

Or fuckin A Life

I think people complain about PVE because we're fighting basic AI

[edgy quail]

You'll find some of the most dedicated PvE players have been complaining that AI are far too easy and want to see them dialed back up. I'm absolutely one of those voices.

I also think we need more penalty for death - such as brining back the durability hit. Probably an unpopular opinion. 🙂

[scenic quarry]

They did mention that they are updating the engine to ue5.7 as that would give them more headroom for AI, so hopefully we will see more intelligent AI

[edgy quail]

But it's difficult to balance the challenge for a wide array of players - and as much as literally everyone would prefer an experience curated to their specific preferences, games don't survive like that.

[tranquil veldt]

Call me a moron but sometimes the problem with suggestions like these is that people just want to turn something into a tarkov or DayZ clone

[edgy quail]

You def get a lot of that for sure.

[scenic quarry]

My take is the game isn't even fully complete, we're missing so much and a lot needs to be tweaked and iterated, so trying to finalise PVP vs PVE or whatever it is, is a little early

[robust heart]

kinda feels the same to me not gonna lie

[tranquil veldt]

I think in the market this one and IRR are the only ones focusing on PVE

[robust heart]

and I always sit there and ask why dont these people just go play tarkov instead

[tranquil veldt]

Or play DayZ instead

People find deficiencies in their games and then suggest shit in other game forums to turn other games into what they want the original game to be

[soft crane]

It is early but in order to tweak something you need it to be played. And right now with the way they did things - People don't play the PVP loop as a whole. They switch to PVE for the hard tasks and for easy looting. So how can they tweak it if they can't se how people play it?

[robust heart]

I still dont understand what the problem with that is? they will still be active on the pvp servers to fight you on pois and cops, and they bring you gear from pve as a added bonus

[soft crane]

Not nearly as much as if you take away the ability to cheese quests. You give people a cheesy meta - they will take it. Barely any big fight in a POI in PVP because guess what - no one goes there

[robust heart]

its a system put in by the devs its not "cheesing"

it was put in intentionally mind you, it isnt an accident

[soft crane]

it is a cheesy system put by the devs yes

They litally tell you "Here is a hard POI near an enemy base, lets see you survive it" - "here is an easy mode where no one kills you"

[robust heart]

what takes away more organic pvp from POIs is COPs in my opinion

[soft crane]

wonder what people will choose if they want to progress

COPs system is shit for sure. more than one thing can be badly designed at the same time

[robust heart]

in my experience people who "cheese" the tasks in pve will come to POIs to find pvp so I don't really see the same problem you do

now they have an option to go to COPs instead

[scenic quarry]

I have a few friends who've made bank by cheesing PVP, they just stick on cheap shit, sit in places like YBL and rat, come away with a ton of gear, run to a COP dump their stuff and die, rinse and repeat

[soft crane]

I've explained the logic... Who are you going to find in a POI if the only reason to go for a POI is for the high loot and tasks?

People who want to progress fast in PVE want to come to PVP and kill the people who loot and task.. but if no one loots and tasks in PVP anymore - it breaks the gameplay loop

[scenic quarry]

No matter what mode you do, people will find a way to make the most out of the smallest amount of effort

[tranquil veldt]

You put PVP into a game everyone wants it to be another tarkov clone Jesus

[soft crane]

which is why game design is a thing

[soft crane]

no one asked for a Tarkov clone Jesus

[tranquil veldt]

Some of the arguments in the suggestion thread does lol

Might as well go back to IRR lmao

[warped whale]

What if we replace the 10 NPC kill objective with, say, 5 PMC kills? (Only on PvP servers, on PvE servers we'll leave it as is.) To avoid offending PvE players, we'd keep the same rewards, and for PvP players, this would at least provide additional opportunities, rather than just shooting for the sake of shooting.

[soft crane]

Gray zone with PVP isn't even remotely similar to Tarkov. The only thing that looks similar is the inventory UI.. everything else is very different

[soft crane]

People will still cheese any other quest in the PVE and then cry they can't find PMCs to kill in PVP

[soft crane]

I do think these kind of tasks will be great but still separating the modes is essential.

[tranquil veldt]

Extraction and PVP being on the description?

[soft crane]

what?

[tranquil veldt]

Ain't the game marketed as an extraction?

[wintry latch]

Quite honestly they have shifted away from that without saying much about it. Game has evolved over the last couple years (can't believe I started playing in 2024)

More like an "open world mmo shooter"

[ornate steppe]

this. as well as, if you are into PVE, just stick to PVE server, all suggestions toward PVP should be ignored by PVE players, as the loot drop still the same for both mode. again, 4 hours of pvp fighting ends up with pistol and akm 🙂

eventho you think that PvEvP should have more loot. it doesnt, you will definitely burn out your storage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onBVaJI-rBc

all mentioned points are spot on

[soft crane]

nope.. but even if it was it is still just not similar to Tarkov

[wanton minnow]

Sweats, "streamer meta", cheaters, filter abusers. bush campers, griefers.
There is massive group of reasons why people dont want to deal with PVP exclusively.

[wanton minnow]

Not anymore. Its supposed to be open world PVE tactical shooter. Having pvp in this thing is just bonus on top.

[past chasm]

Sweats= get good/ streamer meta= ?/ cheaters= thats fair, its being worked on tho/ filter abusers= probably being fixed/ bush campers= part of the game its literally a jungle, get good/ griefers= they get penalized youll be ok. Half these reasons are just being complete ass at the game and not wanting a challenge lol im just saying thats a crazy reason to not play pvp

[ocean lintel]

This attitude is why Marathon's current playerbase can't attract anyone new, tbh

They have the exact same attitude to criticisms of that game's PvP

[desert copper]

Pretty sure you made his point for him.....

[dense juniper]

The average PvPer seems to think insulting PvE players will rectify the core problems which make PvE players PvE players.

First and foremost, gameplay be damned, if someone doesn't want to PvP, they won't, and no amount of cajoling, coercing, or manipulative rewards systems will change that.

Being toxic on top of it, as though its a skill issue, not a desire issue, doesn't make a compelling argument to change their stance, either.

I wish I could say I was better than spartan in my youth, but unfortunately I wasn't. Perhaps he, too, will see that light someday.

[gloomy girder]

THIS IS A PvE................v........p...... game, you don’t understand anything, go back to your stinky Tarkov, you dirty toxic PvP gamer!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dense juniper]

Ah, yes, insult me further, because personal attacks are totally non-toxic, well-adjusted behaviors

Was it spartan asking about proof of toxicity in the PvP playerbase in here?

See above for proof

[gloomy girder]

Why do you PvE-only players even care about the PvP aspect at all?

[past chasm]

Nah i was jus sayin get good lol i know nobodys switching to pvp im just stating that its the full experience of the game in the first place

[wild ginkgo]

Why do pvp-only players seem to think insulting someone will make them want to play pvp? I once coached a semi professional LoL team (not bragging, using for context), do you think I told people they were dogshit humans because they were silver? No. I was just happy to see someone enjoy a game I enjoyed, albeit differently. We're all playing the same game. Just because you shoot Timmies and I vibe with the homies and drink a beer after work doesn't mean I'm somehow less of a man than you.

If you're hitching your entire self worth to your ability to perform well in a casual survival shooter that's PvE first, as stated by the developers themselves, and then finding it necessary to insult others because they aren't... Seek help. Please.

[gloomy girder]

Look, if you like PvE — that’s your choice, I don’t really care. What annoys me is when every post about separating PvE and PvP progression — or even just hinting at any differences — gets flooded by PvE players with negative reactions.

Like, just separate the modes already: let PvE stay PvE, and let PvPvE have its own space.

[wild ginkgo]

This wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Just my two cents. Idc if they're separated. I am simply pointing out that discourse can be had without insults and personal attacks like we're 3yos

If the shoe fits, wear it. Otherwise, carry on.

[patent helm]

That right there, is exactly the problem though. That last line. You are part of the problem and as pointed out many times, it's PvEvP.

[soft crane]

It takes to long to write so people just type pvp

[patent helm]

You tried.

[soft crane]

yeah what's the problem with that

[gloomy girder]

Sorry guys, but your game is so terrible and rudimentary when it comes to PvE, and you’re suffocating the PvP community. Nothing good will come out of this.

[scenic quarry]

Huh? So having PVP makes it not rudimentary or terrible?

"Nothing good will come out of this" But ever since 0.2's release we've had more and more ppl play the game...

[gloomy girder]

Having PvP is a solid alternative to a mindless PvE grind.

[desert copper]

In. Your. Opinion.

[soft crane]

ah you mean because he wrote pvpve instead of pvevp? 😐

[desert copper]

PvE comes first

[soft crane]

what does it means? like surely most of the game is pve. you can't avoid it

[scenic quarry]

So if you guys don't like PVE i guess they should take out AI so you don't have any PVE in your PVP mode?

[desert copper]

It means the goal of both Warfare and Joint Ops is PvE first. They are not trying to craft an experience that places PvP as a priority over the environment or PvE aspect of the game.

[soft crane]

Ok? but it is still part of the game right? so should it be a good part? or should they do whatever they can to make it look like an afterthought?

Like people give suggestions how to make the PVP part better and you guys say noooo PVE first

It is nonesensical

[gloomy girder]

They should make PvE actually challenging and engaging. I don’t know — maybe if it’s your first time playing FPS games, you might get some kind of ‘challenge’ from the current PvE. But for me, as someone who’s played a lot of shooters, it’s just shooting braindead bots with no real resistance.

[wild ginkgo]

I think that based on the original roadmap's timeline, 1.0 is still at least two years away, and with that in mind, the devs should focus on PvE more than PvP and get it right before they worry about what's not the core gameplay of the fuckin game. Maybe I'm insane though.

Tarkov gamers coming here complaining the AI is "too easy" but seem to forget how bad scav AI was in 2018.

[soft crane]

They focues on it. Here you got an update that is all PVE focused

[desert copper]

Not at all. I've had plenty of good conversations with PvP focused people on issues with COPs, etc. But the attitude of most people on the discord when they discuss this seem to think PvP is more important than PvE.

That's what has the PvE community so chafed.

[soft crane]

I'm not even PVP focused. I think that the PVP aspect compliments the PVE. They go hand in hand. Even if the game is mostly PVE, that small portion of PVP is the spice. So both should be thought and properlly designed. It isn't that one is more important than the other. I want the PVP to be good so that the PVE will also be better

[desert copper]

In that, we agree. And I agree 100% that issues like COPs need to be fixed.

But splitting progression effectively locks PvE players out of the PvEvP experience because they dont want to grind two accounts just to try out or play PvEvP now and then.

[scenic quarry]

I still honestly think that trying to balance PVP and PVE will come at the end just before release as we still have so much more of the game to add into it

All the content and features and systems are going to change the PVP and PVE dynamic a lot

[static delta]

I wish more people understood this. Every time I see the PvP vs PvE debate I think the same thing. It's one game, one vision. When they say "PvE first" they don't mean "Joint Operations First". They mean that the majority of what you do in the game (tasking, looting, exploring) will involve PvE interaction instead of PvP interaction.

[gloomy girder]

Yeah, that’s just my opinion, right? And according to you, the AI in the game is perfectly fine. This clip illustrates really well just how ‘great’ the AI actually is... https://youtu.be/N3usS3tqCWM?t=477

[wild ginkgo]

Nobody here said the AI is fine.

Not once.

[desert copper]

There's no need to stand up a straw man to beat

[soft crane]

But there are no free meals in life. You want to try - try it from the start. There is no point in "trying" the PVEVP now and then when it plays almost EXACTLY the same as PVE because people barely go to POIs. If you are a PVE player and you grinded and maxed everything and now you hop in to do some PVPing. who are you planning to fight? other people who want to PVP? because chances are low you will find any on your own terms. So probably - you plan on fighting people doing their tasks in POI's. But then you will see the problems - they do these tasks in the PVE servers.

[static delta]

Everyone agrees the AI needs to be improved (and it is). This patch I've already noticed some slight improvements.

[wild ginkgo]

That might be the only thing we can ALL agree on. The AI needs a lot of work.

[static delta]

Some do, many still don't.

[wild ginkgo]

I'd love to see AI suppress, flank, aggress, use grenades, ambush, hunt. Not just stand in one place and hipfire.

[static delta]

Pretty much all my fights this patch have been bumping into people tasking or just going on loot runs. Some people just enjoy that kind of thing ya know.

I've done everything in PvEvP in 0.3 and now in 0.4 and my buddies have as well

[static delta]

And work together!!!

[soft crane]

Well after you go and try some pvp in the pvevp server - they will switch to pve, and you will have one less player to fight. It is a feedback system. you reward not playing in pvevp, so this is what people will do.

[static delta]

It depends on the person man. Not everyone crashes out just because they died doing a task (which they can repeat anyway) or lost some gear.

[soft crane]

kill that poor soul who was tasking and the next thing he is doing is switch to pve because why not

[static delta]

They're not poor souls.

Why not switch? Because it's fun! People enjoy the tension it creates. Otherwise you're just running from POI to POI, opening boxes, and pressing F on folders.

[soft crane]

But you understand that once you want to hop on PVP and try it out with your maxxed traders, you would want more people doing stuff in your server? because otherwise it will be kind of boring for you?

this is when you will understand how cross progression ruines this mode

[static delta]

I've never ever had trouble finding PvP. Not in 0.3 and there won't be issues in 0.4. I'm talking about organic PvP where you bump into each other at POIs. Not COP fights.

[soft crane]

You find way less of it due to people preferring not to go to these POIs when they can just go there safely in PVE

[static delta]

Dude I'm level 27. I've been no lifing it since 0.4 came out. And I no-lifed it when 0.3 came out. PvP never stopped. The one bad thing that happens when the population drops is the cheaters are more % of the playerbase. But they're working on that.

[static delta]

I'm telling you that I find plenty of it lol. I'm at 62 PMC kills so far. That's 7.75 kills per daily session which is just the right amount for me.

My K/D is like 1.1 so I'm finding ~10-14 fights per night which is enough to keep me happy between looting and exploring.

If it was like 100 fights per night it wouldn't be Grayzone.

[scenic quarry]

It seems like some ppl on here want PVP only, nothing else, they want a KD like its Warzone

[soft crane]

Interesting. I barely seen any fight. When I hop in a server I see maybe one or two guys that are not sitting in the starter town or in the base. do you play solo?

[static delta]

What region? I play half solo, half with some friends.

[soft crane]

EU west

[static delta]

All the US regions are active PvP wise. I can try EU West later and see.

[scenic quarry]

Yeah always a thing, NA East is always the busiest

[static delta]

It depends on your expectations. Some people do things like select the LZ closest to an enemy COP and rush in. I don't like playing that way.

Like if I want to fight in Tiger Bay I'll find an excuse to go there (task, looting, exploring) and I'll always run into someone while doing that.

You have to pay attention to shots, surrounding COPs being taken, your faction mates getting into fights, etc. Sometimes you have to go find it in the general area based on what's going on.

There's kind of a flow to the map if that makes sense

[dense juniper]

Straw men happen when you don't have an actual argument and are grasping at straws.

Kinda like the personal attacks he leveled at me earlier.

[static delta]

Ok if you really want PvP. Just go to Sawmill. If you like sniping bring a sniper rifle. The whole place is surrounded by hills. You can snipe people, have them chase you. It's super fun. I don't even loot them and just let them get their stuff back and fight till I die.

[carmine iron]

You're also Mithras - by sheer dint of being in that faction, you're less likely to find PvP on servers.

[static delta]

Yea LRI are always outnumbered lol

[gloomy girder]

Dude, maybe you need psychological help? Not everyone can handle such intense attacks directed at them)))

[static delta]

This is a common occurence lol. Headshot one, grenade another, and get out of there lmao

The big groups always turn on their lights and just run around

MS is really popular right now because they redid the whole location (er, I mean hotel). Blueprints (on the roof of MS and many other places) are also hotspots for people to go.

If you're LRI hit Fanny's. If you're not LRI hit Villa Vongphet

[tranquil veldt]

Let's just kill PVE

[dense juniper]

I had far, far worse, thrown at me by far, far better men than you, at boot camp, in 2006.

Also, another personal attack. Again.

[tranquil veldt]

I'm gonna get timed out engaging in this shit again Jesus Christ

[gloomy girder]

Just to be clear, I don’t support the original idea of giving more rewards on PvP servers. I’m in favor of fully separating PvE and PvP progression.

[static delta]

https://tenor.com/view/popcorn-guy-relaxing-popcorm-popcorn-gif-26404903

[gloomy girder]

Dude, I think it’s time for you to log off the internet so you don’t get overwhelmed by these ‘powerful attacks’)))

[dense juniper]

Now you're putting words in my mouth.

Keep going. I want to see how many logical fallacies and debate fails you can use on me

[young oasis]

Idk why fellas who support separate progression always have to act like they have the biggest doohickey.

[tranquil veldt]

Problem is only one can be prioritized

This is why I nearly go sarcastic and tell just kill PVE

it favors everyone

And no one bitches about dumb AI

[dense juniper]

Because its not actually about PvP progression.

Its about getting one over on the "inferior" player. They can't kill anyone who refuses to PvP with them, so they go to things like cajoling, coercing, or insulting.

I had the same mentality, a decade ago. I was young, dumb, and rather full of myself, with something to prove to others.

[dense juniper]

So kill PvP, so the devs have more time to make good AI

[tranquil veldt]

but how will the game sell hotcakes!?

Mindless PVE grind
That's really insulting to the division players ngl

[dense juniper]

Hey! I resembled that, a decade ago!

To be totally fair, Div 1 was decent. Div 2 was a turd in comparison.

Div 1 Dark Zone shenanigans were lit, once the devs fixed the worst of the borked guns

[tranquil veldt]

True

flooded by negative comments from PVE people

Or maybe there's already prejudice that the game should have not have a PVE mode

[dense juniper]

I'd much rather stay in PvE than deal with the crap swirling around current PvP.

Kill the red circles, kill the stims (crackhead stim plus sprinting to get ot of line of fire isn't real at all. That never should have come here from Tarkov) and, for the love of God, don't import some stupid Tarkov-esque skill system, and I'd be more inclined to PvP

Like, I'm not opposed to actually emergent PvP at all

But, the current system ain't that. When I first played in .1, I remember being endlessly harassed by PvPers every time i left base ("arethereplayersthere? Arethereplayersthere? Doyouneedhelp? Arethereplayersthere?)

Thats how we got the stupid red circles

[tranquil veldt]

I mean holy shit the first thing people do in PVE vs PVP discussion is straight up go ad hominem then start asking why are pve players invading PVP?

[dense juniper]

Because a whole crapload of us looked at MFG and said, "Either the harassment stops or no one is playing, period."

[dense juniper]

Which, if I'm not mistaken, is their goal, right?

[tranquil veldt]

Most likely
The pattern I've seen is that

Insult first
Then "constructive criticism"

Then when some poor pve player replies over the insult they start claiming the baited they got mental problems

[dense juniper]

Like I said, I was that guy once

[tranquil veldt]

And then when you tell them just kill the one mode you hate

They start claiming "uhh uhh we support having different progression"

Bro were euthanizing PVE with shit AI why are you telling me something progressive lol

[dense juniper]

And somehow, gating my time even harder, with separate progression, is supposed to compel me to engage with a PvP system that I have mechanical issues with, too.

Can't leave that out

[tranquil veldt]

MFG really needs a second team at this point

That's the most civil solution I can find before I start being called a pussy

[scenic quarry]

https://x.com/OperatorDrewski/status/2041694195769847827?s=20

OperatorDrewski (@OperatorDrewski)

Chatted directly to the GZW devs about this and other PVP loop issues. They have some solid ideas in the mix for fixing the PVP woes and are working with feedback from both creators and community members. I do wish THIS was the update to get those changes, but we'll wait n see!

X · Apr 8, 2026, 1:46 AM

[tranquil veldt]

Dawg I've played hardcore games it's obviously my DELIBERATE choice to just play more PVE

God forbid a man makes a choice for his health and be called a fucking wuss

[static delta]

People care too much what other people do.

Play your own game, have fun. If not having fun, do something that is fun. Not that hard.

[tranquil veldt]

Except some people really try their way to make people feel shit for their choice

[static delta]

The human condition 😐

[tranquil veldt]

Yes ignore them but they really really try to bait you in

[scenic quarry]

Like Bald Spot said, it makes them feel superior for the choice they made

Sorry i should say they want to feel superior so they make your choice feel inferior

[tranquil veldt]

And hide insults under constructive words

[scenic quarry]

Yup all to make them look and feel superior

[tranquil veldt]

All that shit just to say skill issue for not playing PVP huh

[patent helm]

Nothing hides from me We need to do better about taking bait though, someone is on the bench for now and would be nice if we didn't have to add more

[tranquil veldt]

I see I see
But as I've said they make it piss fuckin hard

Going really personal and then denying they were not

[patent helm]

We will handle it. Message us or use #💪︱support for a Discord ticket for a heads up if we're not seeing something. I was displeased earlier with what I saw Just a reminder though is all. Let's try to keep discussions constructive and on topic

[tranquil veldt]

Aye

[soft crane]

But I'm crimson

[soft crane]

This is a bad argument. I also don't have time. I want a button that I press so that I'll have max traders and millions of dollars. "not having time to play" isn't a good argument for cross progression.. Play at your own pace but start from zero without shortcuts. It isn't that crazy idea for people to progress at the respective mode they play in

[dense juniper]

Logical fallacy: race to absurdity isn't any better than logical fallacy: strawman

[soft crane]

It is your argument. you don't have time to play both modes, so you want your progress from the easier mode to transfer to the more difficult one. it is a bad argument, and the max trader button emphesize that.

[tranquil veldt]

Just kill pve

Why not say that

[soft crane]

Brother this is like the 10th time I see you write that what do you want lol

[tranquil veldt]

Just get to the point

[soft crane]

But this is not my point 🤣

[tranquil veldt]

It'll favor everyone to have that piece of shit mode removed anyways

[soft crane]

ok you can think that.. I just want the progression to be separated. But if it is not, Than I want a skip questing button that puts me at max trader and infinite money.

[patent helm]

...Baiting still falls under my previous warning... That you said is a problem to then do it?

[tranquil veldt]

I wasn't trying to bait the man at all

In fact I was trying to tell him a more extreme solution

[desert copper]

There's nothing stopping you from doing what PvE players do and do some tasks in PvE

[soft crane]

I know

[tranquil veldt]

I don't even think the argument was in good faith at all

[carmine iron]

At the end of the day, loot is loot and gear is gear - it is all identical, regardless of source.

The only difference is how a loadout is built, and that is entirely personal preferance.

[tranquil veldt]

Separating PVE and PVP can be good without having to go insulting

I wouldn't respond in good faith if the argument isn't in good faith at all

[soft crane]

Are you talking about me?

[tranquil veldt]

I want a button that I press so that Ill have max traders and millions of dollars

[soft crane]

How is that insulting to you. It is an argument to emphesize my point

Are you against such button?

[tranquil veldt]

Obviously
Which means removing the mode that you access with the button

Call it bait but the button you mention is an entire game mode

[soft crane]

why are you against it

no

You can leave the button for people who enjoy pressing it.

it just doesn't do anything for the PVEVP mode

[tranquil veldt]

....which should have been the primary mode?

[soft crane]

I don't care?

[tranquil veldt]

But you obviously care about warfare mode tho

[soft crane]

Still I have no idea what you want. focus

[tranquil veldt]

Like I said a healthy separation of PVE and PVP without insulting players of either modes

If anything some if not most of the arguments for separation tend to incline towards insulting PVE

[soft crane]

Ok man whatever if an argument is an insult to you I really can't help you with that

[tranquil veldt]

Tell me how what you said was in good faith

[soft crane]

How am I supposed to do that

It is an argument

You can respond to it, or you can act offended

If I can use your logic to keep the modes connected to justify a skip quests button, and If

I can use it to justify seperating the modes

than this is my argument

[tranquil veldt]

I didn't even go and explicitly say keep the modes connected

Literally said I agree on the separation

[soft crane]

Ok but you intervened and tried to say I am insulting, and "kill PVE", so what do you want? you agree but argue for the sake of it

[tranquil veldt]

Word your damn argument better instead of whatever this is

But oh no I'm a fucking wuss

[soft crane]

No I think I'll word it however I like to

[desert copper]

I think these two finally found the pvp they've been looking for 😂

[tranquil veldt]

Then I'll find killing PVE a better solution to please people

[soft crane]

Ok man

[tranquil veldt]

Why even deny you have prejudice

[soft crane]

You really want me to have it don't you. Because otherwise nothing you say makes any sens

[tranquil veldt]

Or you're just choosing to ignore it

[soft crane]

whatever makes you feel better

[tranquil veldt]

Whatever makes you feel superior

[soft crane]

oh man

this is getting awkward

[patent helm]

Ok, both of you go separate ways or I'm ending it myself.

[dense juniper]

That is not, at all, my argument, or I would have said that myself.

Putting words in my mouth is also a logical fallacy.

[tranquil veldt]

Let's just leave it mate

No I think I'll word it however I like to

He already said it so himself

[soft crane]

I'm not trying to put words into your mouth this is what I understand from your own words

[dense juniper]

Gr8 b8 m8 I r8 8/8.

Blocked.

[golden jasper]

Decrease, cuz my PvE friends wont come to PvP and I have to choose 7 friends and 1 family member in PvE or 2 PvP friends.

And it may just be one of those PvP friends drops PvP just to be able to play with the PvE friends.

[soft crane]

But your personal case with 7 friends playing PVE isn't the general case you know, you can't really apply that on everyone.

[golden jasper]

But it affects 11 people in one group, even assuming most groups are half that that is a frankly unacceptable deviation from precedent

[spare stag]

pvp playewrs will alawys play pvp but statistically pvp is dying bro, it is not about the game design that killed it. truth to be told cheaters did plus a lot of players base have day job and a family to take care of so their playtime kust for them to chillout

there is no point of arguing bro, look I get it a lot of players is in pve whether it is just pure pve player or pvp player grinding safely in pve server. but you cant force a player to play pvp (via better rewards) let them what mode they want to play. let them have their fun. Look I appreciate that you are suggesting as it is healthy for the development of the game.,

[soft crane]

How do you think it affects the average PVP player who tends to do hard tasks in PVE? I don't expect the PVE players to switch. I only expect the PVP players to stay and not leave the server when they fail a task

[sullen oasis]

Doubleful that GZW will do this.

[soft crane]

There is no forcing in what I suggest. Just two separate modes. You can play each of them from the start. I'm not talking about extra rewards in PVP

Maybe there is a skew in PVE VS PVP population but allowing players to progress their PVP character in PVE is increasing the skew even more

[golden jasper]

And you sharpen the population skew if you separate the modes, for no good reason.

[soft crane]

The reason is for people to partake in the gameplay loop in the respectable mod they want to play. If you want to have traders and gear in PVP, than play in PVP.

right now there is zero reason to power through any obstacle in the pvp

[golden jasper]

This is a very tired conversation that comes to the same conclusion every single time.

The damage it inflicts to PvEvP mode by separating progressions is too much relative to any gains from it, people who make these claims want recognition like Ironman Mode players from Runescape and World of Warcraft, when Ironman in those games is a genuine challenge whereas Warfare...really isnt.

[soft crane]

I don't say it because anything you mention. I've explained why I want it

[wanton minnow]

Maybe because they start with PVE to avoid blatant cancer like spartan here at the start of patch and once they are done with quest content, they switch to pvp and actually populate half DEAD mode mid-late patch cycle? And they cant be bothered to do it all again just to play pvp?

[wanton minnow]

So far best first person pve tactical shooter experience of open world shooter with looting mechanics ive played so far.

[zealous crag]

The thing is, the world doesn't need another PvP Loot Shooter, there is plenty enough. Just go and play one of those.

[ornate steppe]

pve stick to pve posts, pvp stick to pvp's post . dont be nosy about things you dont care. dont be toxic against things you dont want to play. that just prove you are a karen

[golden jasper]

I play both and I Hate this idea.

[patent helm]

Yeah that's not how things work. These are public discussions and if you don't like it and can't keep a civil debate, move along.

[prisma summit]

People have rights to voice their opinion as long as it’s not demeaning others.

[ornate steppe]

all im seeing that people are being toxic about things they dont care. so whos being civil here?

[prisma summit]

Lemme go up and read real quick. I just joined

[ornate steppe]

you can browse most post suggestions about pvp. its not being discussed a manner way

[short haven]

Your not, but if you want no risk then also prepare for less reward?

[prisma summit]

I don’t think, there’s a way to improve PVEVP player base aside from making it more natural and fix COP.

The only reason that I think, player don’t touch PVEVP are because they have to hassle with other player, current problematic PvP mechanics and I see it as end game content

Improving reward wouldn’t ring if player don’t want to engage in a fight with other player anyway

[short haven]

Everyone in this suggestion is acting like this is going to force them to play PVP i think missions shouldnt give you less Experience but less money is something i could get my head around and better loot in pvevp over-all.

[short haven]

I think some people treat this game as a progressive collection game instead of a shooter.

[prisma summit]

Uhhhhh you still shoot AI though

Shooter doesn’t necessarily revolve around PVP only, you know.

[short haven]

Nah

but it does for me

Because AI isnt actually intelligent

I might aswell get on farming simulator if i feel like farming crops

[prisma summit]

That’s your opinion. But I think PVP have to be improve in someway that it back to what it was in 0.1

I love 0.1 PVP

[short haven]

Movement inertia like we had in 0.3.4

[prisma summit]

That’s too

[short haven]

Fixes most of the problems

movement wise

[marsh wing]

what was the difference? i didnt pvp at all in 0.1

[prisma summit]

It was more organic as you can ambush and flank enemy without a stupid circle around

You played with information at hands with your own knowledge

[short haven]

The thing is i get how some people play PVE but if your going to get on a shooter game to loot trying to avoid shooting AI and collect purple ¨dic¨ lighters to fill 80% of your stash with them

get on animal crossing

or roblox

[marsh wing]

i just dont get the pvp pve fight all the time

[prisma summit]

Your argument only prove Capua statement lol.

[marsh wing]

like pve hates pvp and pvp hates pve

[short haven]

?

[prisma summit]

I’m not trying to say which is best because world is not revolve around me.

[short haven]

I know which is best to me

[prisma summit]

I only see what have to be fix and what was good.

[short haven]

And im gonna share my opinion just as much as PvE players like to cancel out PvP

[prisma summit]

I don’t really hate one of which, I think both serves its purpose only people separated themselves with modes. They disregard the main core of what fixing the problem or disregard a way to come up with common ground.

[short haven]

as part of PvP the only part i hate about PvE is their hate for PvP

[marsh wing]

okay but pvp also has hate for pve so its both ways all the time

like ur never gonna end that

[short haven]

Of course, its only gonna get worse.

[prisma summit]

You guys just proved Capua right again lol.

[short haven]

Alright stop with these tiktok like comments

who the fuck is capua

[ornate steppe]

i play pvp, i dont hate pve players. its just pve players seem to think improving PVP does some bad to PVE players. nothing changes for PVE player base

[short haven]

Absolutely nothing ever changes for them

[marsh wing]

cant people just accept that theres 2 modes? and u just play whatever u like

[short haven]

they are going to keep getting advantages while PvP is going to keep getting disadvantages and thats simply how its going to be

[prisma summit]

People do think like that, and didn’t take into account that PVE player is the main base of the game and changing PVP is not in anyway relevant to PVE gameplay.

[short haven]

I mean they been worsening PvP every update

[ornate steppe]

no advantages for PVE going to PVP tho, you will lose more than you earn for storage value

[short haven]

Maybe you do

[prisma summit]

According to someone. PVP player is the one who suggested red circle in which make PVP worse by the way.

[short haven]

i gain more however

[ornate steppe]

yes maybe of playing style, i like CQB

so i dont run magnifiers

[short haven]

i dont lose storage value

[marsh wing]

well but do u go there to gain or cause its fun to fight people

[short haven]

sometimes it fluctuates by a little and then it just keeps going up

anyways i dont really care about my storage value.

[prisma summit]

That is the case in 0.1 and 0.2 but I think situation will be improved with more loot pool and stuff, however a lot of problematic mechanic ruined it.

[short haven]

I care about having kits to fight with

[marsh wing]

i mean this is just a pointless discussion kinda no or am i saying somthing wrong

[prisma summit]

For me, it’s just fun to LARP as rival PMC fighting each other

Except you lose a real stuff but that doesn’t concern me

[prisma summit]

It’s only pointless, if people argue with ‘ego’ instead of giving a real suggestion.

[marsh wing]

but what is the suggestion do

cause its never gonna satisfy both worlds no?

[short haven]

Not everything can satisfy both worlds

[ornate steppe]

but coming from me, PVP in this game needs a lot of work

[prisma summit]

Main Point? Wants more PVP population. But people turn it into PVEVP vs PVE discussion.

[prisma summit]

That I agreed.

[marsh wing]

i agree asswel

but

[prisma summit]

Hence we have to find common ground

[short haven]

Yeah we wont though

they made that clear by stating they are PvE first

[marsh wing]

that doesnt meant their never gonna change anything about pvp do

[prisma summit]

But that doesn’t mean they give up on PVP though?

[marsh wing]

?

[short haven]

And removing PvP features instead of adding them

[marsh wing]

its just not their first priority

as it should be

even do i like pvp just as much as u

[prisma summit]

They did ‘add’ PVP features on 0.3

[short haven]

0.2

[prisma summit]

Wrong one

[short haven]

and then removed some

PvE players we´re whining they are to slow to run away from AI so they remove movement inertia

i also thought they loved realism

[prisma summit]

I don’t count any mechanic that never meant specifically for PVP as PVP feature.

[short haven]

and now the movement feels like roblox

[prisma summit]

They remove that for all

[short haven]

Removing it benefits PvE but contradicts PvP

[prisma summit]

But they do add PVP feature

[short haven]

it makes PvP less enjoyable if people have weird movement metas

[marsh wing]

but if u where them would u focus more on the pvp side then the pve side?

[short haven]

No

But i´d give them a risk reward

[marsh wing]

why do the hole risk

is

killing the players

or dying

[prisma summit]

To be fair, removing Inertia making it bad for PVE too as I don’t like this current movement at all.

I want move movement like old 0.2 0.3

[short haven]

You not liking it doesnt mean it doesnt give you an advantage

[prisma summit]

So what? I still would say that they would add it back.

[short haven]

Yeah sure

i know a lot of chickens who would whine about it

But its half baked

they dont want movement inertia but dont want jumpshooting?

Its one or the other with movement mechs

Realism or Fun

[prisma summit]

I don’t really care about movement at all, that’s why I never noticed some stuff like Inertia but I felt it a bit different from 0.3. Still I think that will have to be a whole new forum for discussion.

[marsh wing]

movement isnt gonna fix what was getting discussed here tbf

[prisma summit]

I also think removing it is affecting both PVE and PVP since now you can’t jump shoot an AI too lol

Last time I played, I jumped shoot AI a lot

[short haven]

no reason to jump shoot an AI

[prisma summit]

0.3 is bad so I jumped shot it.

Pretty fun ngl

[marsh wing]

u play lot of tarkov?

boom?

[short haven]

Nah

tarkov is russian slop

[prisma summit]

I don’t like Tarkov

[marsh wing]

just asked cause ive seen lot of people come from tarkov to here and say alot of the same things

regarding pvp pve discussion

[short haven]

Maybe because tarkov players actually experienced PvP

I have played tarkov

i did not come here from tarkov though

[marsh wing]

but i feel like they want it to be as hard and aids as tarkov somthimes is

like most of them only pvp and thats fair if they want that then they can but

[short haven]

Impossible

unless the devs start selling cheats and accounts

[prisma summit]

What I want, is for PVP to improve or back to what it was in 0.1

Nothing else

[marsh wing]

like lets say i started playing gray zone mostly pve cause i liked the quests and everything behind it but alot of people just come here to pvp alone

and thats like the only thing in mind

not saying everyone do dont wanna shit talk or anything

[short haven]

I can do everything and more on PvP

I have a LOT of friends that i got to touch this game

categorizing how well i know them it just seems really apparent to me which stereotypes never touch PvP

and i dont come here to PvP on its own either but to me it is the mechanic ill play and come back for at the end of the day

[marsh wing]

i dont even know anymore at this point lmao

[prisma summit]

Nothing in the bamboos, man. People argue just for the sake of arguing sometimes.

[marsh wing]

i just think they have the chance of making it somthing for both worlds as it should be

pvp and pve

[prisma summit]

In fact, they do. People don’t see it otherwise.

[marsh wing]

i mean

[prisma summit]

Arguing over something like this is more a waste of time.

[marsh wing]

they do but yet they cant accept eachother

lmao

[warped loom]

Disagree completely that "pvp is a bonus / afterthought". The whole 3 faction design is made for pvp, the cop system is more relevant in pvp, tracking devices etc. I definitely disagree, and I read the PvEvP as "most of the time you experience pve, with chances of getting into pvp". I certainly wish the direction doesn't change towards a pve only game, I very very much doubt it will, but if it does I sadly would have to jump away.

If anything, pve mode is the afterthought in the grand design: easy mode with friendly fire disabled and no pvp across factions.

[wanton minnow]

Go and jump then.
Its marketed as PVE-first.. Not second, not afterthought but pve first, tactical shooter, not pvp.
Markers and cops came as afterthought. They weren't there at the start. Cops were also supposed to help with tasking and to relieve helicopter queue.
You have no idea or even have ability to know what they plan to do with factions even in pve when ground zero releases.

[short haven]

Such a little whiney bastard that has never touched PvP in any game.

Without PvP this game will literally Die once again

[wanton minnow]

My history of playing exclusively pvp games is the reason why i want this one to get as far from typical PVP slop as possible.
Pvp playerbase makes FRACTION of pve population.

[short haven]

People had the chance to only be playing PvE before last month but it wasnt really interesting then was it?

when the game was averaging 40x less people then it is now.

That WILL happen again if the game only caters to PvE

and trust me you underestimate the PvP player base

[desert copper]

Pretending like the player jump was solely due to Warfare players is a stretch without data to back it up

[wanton minnow]

Devs themselves said its 10:1 for pve so stfu. Majority gives 0 fcks about pvp slop.

[short haven]

PvP slop

nobody cares about your millenial slop either

get a job bum

[wanton minnow]

Then piss off, refund the game and gtfo

[short haven]

Nah ill just be playing for the PvP

[calm tendon]

Cool it

[wanton minnow]

Its TEN times smaller than pve

[short haven]

according to what statistic?

[wanton minnow]

According to devs themselves

[short haven]

Source?

Sure it was bigger when only 1000 people played the game at one time

[desert copper]

There is no known link or official post anywhere that quotes the 10:1 figure but if memory serves, it was a statistic that was discussed on a dev stream early on. It wasn't given when the player count was so low and continuing to state that the increased player count is due to people playing PvEvP is also just as weak a position without a data source to back it up.

The thing to remember though is that Madfinger has continuously marketed the game as PvE first.

[carmine iron]

This is yet another argument we see over and over again with each wipe - "the game will die without PvP, the numbers bump is purely because the PvP players came back".

The only data that we have is from MFG themselves back in 0.1, where the player base was listed in a stream as tilting heavily 10:1 in favour of the PvE mode.

There has been no official data since then about the player split. Steam data can't be used as it's an aggregate of all game modes, and "word of mouth" isn't reliable either.

People will come and go during the development cycle to see and explore the new features, test new weapons and essentially "check in" to see how the game is doing. A drop off after they've done so is entirely reasonable as an expectation.

Pretending that it will only stay high due to PvP is, ultimately, a fallacy.

[short haven]

thats simply bullshit

all the content i see of 0.1 is PvP

people keep saying 0.1 was peak PvP

[scenic quarry]

I swear this guy is ragebaiting

[desert copper]

Content does not correlate with analytics. Content is driven by what people want to watch, not what people want to play.

[short haven]

If you cant provide the source then what you guys are saying is word of mouth

thats very hypocritical.

[scenic quarry]

So is yours...

Bet you'll come back with, "No, i have a friend"

[short haven]

No it is not i did not claim thats its 10:1

Most unrealistic number EVER

[desert copper]

But you did claim that the player jump was due to PvP

[short haven]

its probably closer to equal then it is to 4:3

[desert copper]

sOuRcE!?

[scenic quarry]

Lol love it, 10:1 can't be true, no source, but 4:3 is fact, uh huh buddy

[short haven]

Closer to

Never said it was a fact

[scenic quarry]

Source?

[short haven]

So unintellectual

[scenic quarry]

Cool story bro

Keep going, tell me more

[desert copper]

Even if it's "closer to" 4:3, that still destroys your argument that "the game will die without PvP" because 60% of the playerbase is playing PvE in that example.

[short haven]

Who told you the higher percentage was PvE?

i never stated that

[desert copper]

you flipped the ratio on purpose?

[short haven]

Figure it out

[desert copper]

☝️

[short haven]

You guys are so intellectual and have access to all the statistics right?

Figure it out smartass

[scenic quarry]

Why is it always the ones who desperately want only PVP or seperate progression are raging that there's a PVE portion to the game

[short haven]

I want neither

Your assuming

[scenic quarry]

I never see threads being made about PVE players desperately asking for no PVP

[short haven]

outta fuel

[short haven]

Nah you guys already get everything

PvE is boring anyways

Might aswell play farming simulator

[scenic quarry]

Lols

Still raging

[short haven]

Im chilling

You´re so immature for a millenial though.

[scenic quarry]

Lols

[calm tendon]

Guys, stop being baited by him into continuing. This is why threads get locked.

[scenic quarry]

And more personal attacks

[short haven]

Personal attacks

Sure bud

[scenic quarry]

Fair enough i'll stop

[warped loom]

Nice calling major features in major patches as "afterthought" - apparently anything after initial release is afterthought. Anyway, clearly we're not on same page, everyone should play the mode they like.

[round crypt]

Just remove the Red Circle and stop share lockers (pvp , pve lockers exclusive) and all be fine 🙂

[young oasis]

10 to 1 was according to the devs they literally announced it.

[desert copper]

You kill Warfare if you separate progression.

People naturally choose the path of least resistance by our very nature.

Right now that means that some people choose to task in PvE and play PvP once the PvE content gets stale to them. PvEvP adds an additional game loop that they can play after PvE is finished. Take their progression in PvE away and they now have no incentive to play Warfare because they won't want to grind levels/rep again.

Additionally, players who like PvP but aren't very good at it would eventually just quit PvEvP altogether and settle for PvE, whereas now they have the ability to hop back and forth when they feel like it. If given the choice, those players would simply choose PvE.

You don't make Warfare healthier by restricting access. You reduce the already low interest.

[soft crane]

It is still alpha. They should just have one wipe when it is separated to try it out and see what happens.

[desert copper]

I mean I don't disagree with experimentation, but I don't think it's needed either. There's plenty of player analytics in the PvP space.

World of Warcraft PvP servers inevitably end up lopsided with one faction being prevalent and another suffering
League of Legends is full of smurf accounts at lower ranks because players peak and need the dopamine rush of winning again
Escape from Tarkov starts off 80:20 PvP:PvE at the beginning of a wipe and ends more 50:50 by the end of the wipe

Those are only a few examples, but the data is pretty clear. People naturally choose the path of least resistance. That's why cheaters exist in PvP. Players who engage in PvP have a strong desire to dominate another player. That situation ends with someone being dominated. That's not fun and people find a way to avoid that friction if possible.

[soft crane]

What kind of analytics do you have? you know it is a 10 to 1 ratio but you don't know if it is mainly warfare mode players who just grind all tasks on PVE because it is the META or people who genuinely play PVE because they like PVE.

Like you say, people choose the path of least resistance, but this doesn't mean that if you remove this path they will stop playing the game..

[short haven]

You just chose the two WORST PvP games ever

[scenic quarry]

I still don't understand that if MFG want to focus their efforts on PVE, they must see the value in doing that? They must have the data to back up they want to keep shared progression at the moment. And after all they are the developers, they will take the game in the direction they believe will be best for the game, and since launch PVE has always been the predominant factor in the game

[short haven]

LoL is a chinese spyware distribution application

[wintry latch]

They added PvP to Operator at some point, for a week every server was a COD deathmatch style PvP thing. Then people finally found the meta and started cheating. You'd be lucky to find a single pvp server now.

PvP belongs in PvP games, PvE belongs in PvE games. Trying to mix them never works. One of those groups of players will eventually just leave or stop engaging in it. Arc raiders released as a game with a focus on PvPvE and it was great but the PvE player base is pretty much gone now. Same goes for this game and the PvP players

[desert copper]

No, they won't stop playing the game but human nature proves out that Joint Ops won't grind another account just to try out Warfare and lower skill Warfare players will just go play Joint Ops to have a good time and give up on Warfare. Neither of those things is good for the Warfare mode.

[desert copper]

Irrelevant

[short haven]

It’s a true fact

[unreal ice]

but what’s even the point of getting all this loot?? what are you even gonna use it for?? i can clear out every area in the game with a mosin and irons easy. i don’t see why pve players even play when the pve feels so stale and unexciting especially when you start remembering the spawns for all the high loot places

[short haven]

There is no end game to pve

[round crypt]

I cannot kill what is not alive. 10 pve to 1 pvp and that 1/10 are Vacuum cleaners #1490711379328372796 they destroy the game expirence of pve players. (I was a warfare player exclusive until the red circle).

[unreal ice]

that’s what i’m saying what is even the fucking point

[short haven]

Just loot enough and then when the wipe happens well you loot it all again

[wintry latch]

That's just a type of player mindset that you have and that is fair. Doesn't mean everyone who plays the game feels the same way. I personally find it fun to go around and just do quests and stockpile loot like a dragon with a horde

[scenic quarry]

Its like the game is still Early Access, Pre Alpha and not even half the content or features are in place..

[desert copper]

As a PvE exclusive player I can definitively say what most others told you in that thread. Warfare players coming to Joint Ops does not negatively impact the experience.,

[unreal ice]

that’s fair

[short haven]

What do you do with that loot though?

I’m genuinely curious

[wintry latch]

Literally nothing lol. I just like to look that I have it

[unreal ice]

it’s been out for 2 years in it’s not done i was just asking a question about why someone would enjoy pve more then pvp

[wintry latch]

Or sell it

[unreal ice]

i personally don’t know why you would only play pve

[short haven]

Can’t get my head around that but if that makes you happy I guess keep at it

[scenic quarry]

People like completing tasks, they like making as much money as possible, there are people who like to help other people out and sherpa them, there are a multitude of goals that you can make for yourself, the PVE aspect is trying to be an Open World Sandbox so you can decide what you want to achieve

[soft crane]

I believe the amount of players who mainly prefer to play warfare and just go to joint ops because it is the meta is bigger and will just stay and play warfare. I think that everyone who'll choose to switch to joint ops us mainly on that mode anyway

[wintry latch]

And I personally can't see how you could enjoy PvP, to be honest. However, the game released with both and it can accommodate two very different kinds of players

[short haven]

Enjoying and it having a use is different

There is no gameplay loop to pve

As of yet

[wintry latch]

That is according to your own opinion and view

[unreal ice]

because when you running after those gun shots you’ve been chasing for 20 minutes and you finally see the guy and blow his brains out the feeling is amazing

[short haven]

If they add hideouts or whatever its different

[wintry latch]

My gameplay loop is to go kill bots and gather loot

[short haven]

Well it’s quite simple really

Is there an endgame?

[unreal ice]

it makes everything i’ve done up to that point worth it game play wise

[scenic quarry]

They said in the devstream, skills, crafting and hideouts will be coming in 0.5 (hopefully)

[short haven]

Great

50% of those features will probably be released in 0.5 (hopefully)

[wintry latch]

I can see that

[unreal ice]

you gotta try it man the adrenaline rush is real

[wintry latch]

I'm not really looking for an endgame from this game like I would from an actual story game or something like that. It's a sandbox to me

I play when I want to shoot stuff and find loot. Then I go play something else

[unreal ice]

fair

[scenic quarry]

The PVE players aren't expecting to play this game day in day out, once you feel fulfilled they will hop off to another game and come back when they want to pick it up again or the new patch

[soft crane]

They don't but for some reason they still oppose separating the modes even though they go to warfare mode once in a lifetime. But they just want to have the option..

[wintry latch]

Honestly it should be the PvP players arguing against the separation of the modes not going to lie. The only group that would harm is the PvP group. I don't see any downside for PvE

[soft crane]

Exactly

[desert copper]

Yeah, but we're talking about longterm health. Data shows in multiple games that PvP in open world games diminishes as the experience drags on.

There is no PvP exclusive game that exists successfully. PvE is the backbone that keeps the game alive.

Even EVE Online isn't purely PvP only. Industry, mining and missions can be done safely and only venture out and engage in PvP on their own terms.

In Albion Online PvE players can stick to gathering, crafting and other PvE and stay out of black zones.

Gray Zone with it's shared progression fits that model. Players are free to play a fairly risk free version of the game and only swap over and PvP when they feel like it. But if you make them roll a completely different character to do so, the incentive is lost. Especially for someone who'd rather not risk it anyway and just wants to dabble now and then.

[scenic quarry]

What i gather is the problem is people regain in PVE to use in PVP, though i don't see how that's an issue, other than they lvl everything up in PVE and get all the good stuff to, but that would help the economy because you have tastier things to loot of dead players

Though whenever i watch PVP in GZW its using basic throwaway stuff so, dunno, i aint no PVP player lol

[marsh wing]

i agree with that i enjoy pvp but nothing better then being able to switch it off to chill a bit

[scenic quarry]

Maybe also MFG see these reports as well - https://www.dexerto.com/gaming/battle-royale-games-are-losing-players-rapidly-as-sandbox-games-take-over-report-3334940/

[marsh wing]

and thats also cause pvp needs some work the cops are just a respawn battle if their under attack they can just stash their shit away things like that

[soft crane]

The pvevp mode in grayzone is still like 90% pve. You can easily avoid fights. Like we said these players that hop on to the Warfare mode once in a lifetime are not the subject. It is the pvpers who choose to play the meta that it affects the most and these players will adapt to changes

[scenic quarry]

No doubt there are issues with PVP features, hopefully they get fixed

[marsh wing]

i love the pvp but after a while it feels like im playing fortnite reload where if i dont kill the hole team its like infinite loop

[wintry latch]

Probably not fully related but, game that released as a PvE game, cancelled the campaign and that spike is when PvP was added and they became PvP exclusive. Didn't last long at all

[scenic quarry]

I can see that, but i think PVP and PVE suffers at the moment as the one fundamental issue is the core systems, features and content is still not in the game, we still don't even have Ground Zero and all that content that's to come, so PVP and PVE are unforunately going to be in state of fluidity till then i suspect

[marsh wing]

yh for sure i get that and its totally what they should focus on instead of the hole pvp pve discussion that doesnt make sense

[scenic quarry]

Yup, i feel we're all getting amped up and arguing over the wrong things and it shouldn't be PVP vs PVE or shared progression or what not but giving feedback on bugs, issues and core functions that need to be addressed while they bring new content, systems and features online

[wintry latch]

If they just improved the PvP experience less PvP players would be on PvE

[scenic quarry]

I'd be more than happy to have a conversation about Shared Progression and PVP/PVE split when we have a near fully complete game

[soft crane]

My problem is that it creates a break in the loop. There is no reason at all to quest or loot in warfare mode. Which cause less emergent interaction overall. If you see pvp it is a lot due to someone wanting to stirr shit up and not just two factions who went about their business tasking and looting and got into an organic fight. If you are pvping not while looting or tasking than you care way less and you play differently. It is like the difference between early wipe pvp in tarkov when people a careful and scared to die to late wipe when no one gives a shit

[marsh wing]

i agree on that asswel but whats more important them pleasing people more with pvp by doing smaller changes or just see past it for now and let them fix alot of core things on the game first and then after theres room for that

[scenic quarry]

Ahh i gotcha

[scenic quarry]

Thats the crux of it, flesh out the game first then we can give feedback on the direction of Warfare and Joint Ops and how balanced it is or not

[round crypt]

Okay, so this means that when PvP players lose equipment and want to replenish their stock, they come to PvE (because it's less risky) to grind for the best equipment..
Only to lose it again in PvP...
Return to PvE to replenish equipment...
Only to lose it again in PvP...
[Infinite loop]
And there's no negative impact?
But there is a negative impact if the lockers are separated?
When you take from some and give to others, someone loses.

[marsh wing]

i dont hate how it is rn tbh

[desert copper]

PvE players aren't affected by an increase in Warfare players in Joint Ops servers.

Servers are locked at 48 people. An influx of people means more servers are spun up, not an imbalance. PvE players are still competing for loot against the same number of people.

[wintry latch]

I feel like Arc Raiders had the most organic PvP interactions. You weren't always willing to risk a fight and neither was your enemy. Sometimes PvP only happened because someone legit felt threatened by you. Then some people did want to actually hunt players but they were few and also extremely easy to just kill

[scenic quarry]

We don't know if Faction Diversity or Trading is going to be a big factor or will be introduced, that would make Warfare Mode have way more incentive to play

[marsh wing]

they have many options tbh

[soft crane]

Which is why I said couple of times, in order to figure out things that are related to pvp, it is better to see how is the gameplay loop in that mode in a closed and controlled environment. So one wipe where it is separated is a fair compromise

[scenic quarry]

I very much doubt they will do this to the live game, but i guess they could do a test of some kind, i dunno, i just don't see MFG doing that and risking the upward trajectory the game has at the moment

[marsh wing]

but i dont think in this state of the game rn they shouldnt be deciding or discussing about the hole pvp pve war

[soft crane]

I imagine the ground zero gameplay, whatever it is, will play differently on pve and pvevp as well

[scenic quarry]

I feel that too, that may change the whole dynamic

[scenic quarry]

Yeah definitely, like Turtle said Ground Zero, the loot there and how ppl are affected etc will change things in quite a few ways

[marsh wing]

idk if its true but i heard streamers get told that this is only 40 prcnt of the hole like content and things

[soft crane]

This is just the early days after the patch. It settles down.. the game still has ways to go to maintain the player count

[scenic quarry]

True true

[scenic quarry]

As of 0.4?

Technically thats correct, since 0.4 is 40% of 1.0 😄

[marsh wing]

well the guy i was watching said not specifically but devs told him or somthing

when im playing im just thinking alot of small things to fix or add that isnt gonna break pve or pvp that could be hella cool or systems etc

i think its in a good balance atm for what state their at

but that might me my perspective

cause rn for me i get like 50 50 of both worlds cause i just switch from pve to pvp and somthimes from pve t pvp

[scenic quarry]

Honestly i have heard other PVP players liking it at the moment, so hopefully the majority of PVP and PVE players like it at the moment MFG should just concentrate on the core of the game and content, i think i can say, all of us want more content and systems lol

[flat agate]

dont fucking ruin the ONE PVE extraction shooter that is good bro come on

[marsh wing]

well apparantly pvp is way more important then the main game for some lmao

cause otherwise this post wouldnt be a thing

and thats vice versa

[flat agate]

if you want PVPVE go Arena Breakout, Tarkov, Arc

leave me and my PVE alone

[marsh wing]

but cause theres pvp option that doesnt mean pve gets ruined do?

[round crypt]

Its not about the number of players is about the reason they're on the server; it's noticeable when they're on a server playing like crazy, ginding and killing some servers are empty, all dead and looted , bad game expirience pve players. 3 days to kill a boss in pve, 1 hour to kill a boss in pvp until the red circle .... stop playing because dont make ###king sense, this game (pve) feels more like a nature walk simulator.

[flat agate]

im agreeing with you

?

[marsh wing]

so whats the problem then lmao

[soft crane]

No one is suggesting changing anything in your PVE dude

I still think they should make the other two factions high level AI npc's and not just other friendly players but that's a different subject

[flat agate]

running into other PMCs are so fun

especially when one of em is in a COMA

and u just stumble by

and help em up

its #hopecore

[flat belfry]

This sounds cool, the AI definitely need work. I want AI that will actually aggressively push your position especially when they’ve got numbers

[wanton minnow]

for this, the game needs to be more optimized first and servers aswell as theres tons of ais across the map

[soft crane]

yeah but you still have your own faction. PVE is missing the whole aspect of other POIs being more dangerous due to nearby factions HQ. also no COP flips etc.. So AI that simulates it can make PVE way more interesting imo.

[flat agate]

just make the lamang army more dangerous? or the other NPC factions

like the VTC

their a "PMC" from thailand

[scenic quarry]

Upgrading to UE5.7 will help as they have mentioned on the devstream as well as we are still expecting tier 4 and 5 enemies

[soft crane]

still not the same as capturing a COP in the part of the map that is further from your HQW, having the enemy randomally flipping it, or going to a POI and finding a group of PMCs there instead of the local AI. Think a very high level AI faction that has a random chance of spawning in POIs instead of the normal faction there, and the more you are distant from your base the more likely they spawn for you

[flat agate]

theres no reason they cant add another ai faction that does this while keeping lamang, crimson and mithras solely for players.

and consider if they made dedicayed servers for each faction in PVE we only have 4 Helis support like the 30+ ppl in a server that would be insane waiting times and super expensive basically triple their server count

[soft crane]

Yeah but it will not be the same for other factions if they are in this server. because for them this AI needs to spawn closer to YOUR base.. you don't need the same number of people. less people in the server, more AI against you. I just feel like PVE missing this whole feeling of being behind enemy lines. Last wipe I played some PVE and every POI I go it feels like I own the place. There is no different between them based on distance.. If there was I would actually play this mode (and if I could do it separately XD)

[flat agate]

less people in the server means more server support needed, their a small company their not EA rich yet

i get the behind enemy lines tho, instead of just higher AI faction or more AI we need dynamic patrol routes that change every now and again so it keeps you on yr toes

and enemies also needa react better to sound and being shot at, but also keep in mind were PRE Alpha we aint even in brta yet lol i got no doubt theyll be adding a huge amt of these ideas

[soft crane]

Not sure about the first point. You might be right but it isn't obvious that more servers with less people is more expensive than less servers with more people

[flat belfry]

Agreed