Ballistics & Ammo

[south summit]

the one im hovering over was a straight on hit

just refused to go through

heres said bullet i used

[gentle cradle]

Not sure if this has been posted, but shotgun slugs do not seem to be giving the accuracy bonus. For example if you have an AR platform rifle and you load into it 556 softpoints it will give you the MOA, and if you load say m855a1 into it the MOA will noticeably decrease when viewing the stats on your rifle. Shotgun slugs state that they give a 40% accuracy increase (sabots are saying about 50%) however the shotgun stats MOA does not appear to change. They're also wildly inconsistent when shooting at the steel targets that are about 7 meters away which gives me the impression that they are not actually increasing accuracy. I could be wrong tho may be worth checking out but if this is intended then these these could possibly use a review. Firing buckshot or slugs out of a +20 inch barrel at a target 7 meters out should not be this inaccurate.

[solar wraith]

1 → 2a → 2 → 3a → 3 → 4

This provides a clearer step-by-step progression compared to the current recon/maze system, which can feel confusing.

[sharp spire]

Na I’m talking about audio

[minor needle]

3 bullets in the same hole, bleed out faster than stoppable bandage

[median seal]

Goes to show how you get far more damage from the AI than you can ever do to them

I shot an AI in the same lower leg 9 times from 30 meters away to get them to die due to "bood loss"

[nova oxide]

you want to use tourniquet on 2-3 drop bleeds.

or if you have the small hemostatic syringes

[south summit]

thats why u have s-hems

[gentle cradle]

Something i've suspected for a long time that I'm sure someone has probably already proven. We go into a coma at 50% blood loss. AI seems to be able to stand even if they have 1% of their remaining blood left in their body (although their ability to fight or even stand up straight appears impacted). So we all deal the same damage, it's just that their effective blood pool is twice as much as ours.

AI should really go into a coma just like we do. I like the changes to the ballistics meta but if they have twice as much blood then we do then the meta is still going to pretty much remain the same. Doink them in the face or heart with a low MOA rifle that uses a fast traveling high pen projectile.

[pastel moss]

Can't prove it, but it feels just like that

[vagrant trellis]

You experienced 'massive hemorrhaging." To address this, you need to stop the bleeding through a tourniquet or hemostatic before you focus on bandaging the injury.
"A wise man knows bandages only hide his wounds."

[median seal]

I would also chime in that we're all saying he should tourniquet etc, but the other issue that i think is being missed is that there are 3 rounds literally in the same place, which shouldn't really be happening either

[vagrant trellis]

Hard to say considering no knowledge of range, but yeah, you are right that it's a little weird. I have seen bullets bounce, so it's possible a single shot bounced off the shinbone and counted for three. You can sometimes see this when you hit someone in the stomach and they have damage to the lungs.

[calm tree]

what the actual fuck

3+ and it stops an entire magazine

and another

Less than 100m before someone says its range or something

[timid depot]

Just a theory but what condition is your rifle in? Especially the barrel. Looks like you bruised him up good to start with as you wrecked his armour.

Then the armour gave and you started penning 'cough' or maybe some non organ shots started penning at the same time as the armour was being broken. Just wondering if the velocity drop due to the current excessive degradation slowed the round down enough so that you had to bust the armour, but because A1 doesn't do much flesh damage lol it took so many rounds to finish him.

Should add i think its bugged but maybe that's the cause.

@calm tree

[calm tree]

Its not my rifle i had literally looted it seconds before from a box

so it would be basically 100

minus like idk

14 rounds worth of durability

[south summit]

mine was at like 90% here

this was i beleive near 80% (diff gun)

[timid depot]

Oh well just a theory, might still be the case bearing mind the damage model seems to be playing up and weapon degradation is definitely off.

[strange swan]

I feel like this is something that goes in here.

I feel like this has already been spoken on but I have an issue with the audio of shots.

1. Suppressed weapons being louder and more noticeable at range than closer to the shooter. Doesn't make sense, and in fact seems to defeat the purpose of a suppressor in the first place.
2. Hearing the snaps of rounds when someone is shooting outside the reasonable "cone" you would expect a audible snap to be heard. (If that makes sense)

[golden oriole]

So I asked Grok about ballistics and it gave me the following answer (for M995): Bottom Line for Lethality Against 3+ Armor

Good 14.5–16" barrel, <100 m: 2–5+ hits to reliably defeat the plate + achieve penetration, then 1–3 more well-placed shots for rapid incapacitation (due to the narrow wound channel).
10.5–12.5" barrel: Add 1–2 extra hits needed, and keep engagement under 100–150 m for best results.
Longer ranges (>200 m): More rounds required overall; armor defeat becomes probabilistic rather than reliable.

Does that mean the spongeyness is justified? What do you guys think

[kind magnet]

ChatGPT is just about the same:

• only M995 reliably beats III+

• M855A1 can work up close

• M855 is basically useless vs plates

• M995 → can pen on 1st shot

• M855A1 → maybe, but often needs follow-ups

• M855 → no

It would be best to interview manufacturers though.

I think the description of penetration/ballistics in GZW where NIJ is mentioned should be saying:
"Results may vary depending on barrel length, distance to the target and angle the shot was placed." - just to leave room for error and lessen confusion.

The other question is:
Did anyone checked how it works against players?
If in the same way as against AI the field is levelled.
I'm happy to be a guinea pig for this experiment.

[golden oriole]

Grok did admit the M61 damage is unrealistic tho

Also I came across this post today: https://www.grayzonewarfare.com/news/combat - its from 2024 but the video shows how the cavitation model works

[vital tiger]

hey guys, so after running literally every weapon in the game, i've come for some conclusions (this is for ballistics and ammo, i will put a separate post in gear/weapons feedback); remember all my points are specific to PvE only.

• first, ammunition natures against AI organs make very little difference. for almost all weapons, i have tried some form of JHP, some form of FMJ, and some form of AP. the only noticable difference that can be felt is when engaging LAF, who wear armor that can withstand FMJ ammo; in this case, either going for face-shots, leg shots, or switching to AP would do the trick.
• note that on average, i am scoring around 1 kill for every 2-3 shots. this is because against AI, due to the way hit models work, i generally ended up going for headshots, regardless of weapon and ammo. as a result, kill and hit statistics generally relate to head shot consistency - aka ballistics.
• finally, note that some weapons have noticable accuracy differences than others; i've found that some weapons (i.e the AKs, and MP5) shoot higher than where the reticle is, and some weapons (generally everything else) shoots lower than where the reticle is. someone else has already noted that the way the optics are zeroed in GZW is either bugged or incorrect, but regardless, it means adjusting for the offset after getting to experience where the offset actually is.
• at the moment, there is little to separate higher power ammunition from lower power ammunition - with the exception of AP ammo, 7.62x51 and 7.62x54R has no noticable performance benefits over 5.56, 5.45 or 7.62x39. SMG ammo natures with AP (Libra Snail, AP-SX) also felt about the same, only they're easier to full-auto with (they're SMG after all)

in conclusion, i'd say that atleast in the current state of 0.4, there's still no real reason to switch up ammo unless you're either in PvP, or you're doing it for the thrill

see screenshots for statistics

also forgot to mention; the reason why you shouldn't go for chest-shots in the current state is that unless you can consistently hit the heart (which is made difficult by AI stance, movement, armor, etc) you won't kill the AI; as people have mentioned already, the AI doesn't go into comas, so organ damage only makes them retreat (and bleed out behind a shack somewhere); additionally, ammo natures like JHP do not seem to expand at this time, so you won't be causing any cavities anytime soon

[compact ledge]

GAMES BROKEN AND DEVS ARE ASLEEP

[median seal]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0AaQa7_GUo8

[median seal]

Sooooo

[small chasm]

This is actually not correct.
On 16" barrel
995 is tungsten core true AP rounds.
There is not enough velocity lost at 100 meters to hurt its penetration much.
995 can even penetrate some level IV plates.
III++ Will be penned by a single shot in most cases except at extreme angles and far distance ( > 2/300 meters )
III++ is not a real rating, NIJ rating is III or IV.
III++ is a designation that means the manufacturer is saying it is better than III, but there is no real proof

20 inch will take this way up, with the additional velocity.

Even on 10 and 12, it will still penetrate on first shot.

[golden oriole]

yeah I looked up some videos online and M855A1 should pen 3+ very easily

[small chasm]

Even 855 can penetrate III+ in some cases.
III is not really slowed down much by 855

To summarize:
855 will penetrate III most of the time, and III+ some of the time, III++ in a perfect scenario.
855A1 will pen III most of the time, III+ most of the time, III++ some of the time
995 will pen all of them, almost all of the time

[dreamy estuary]

Not surprised that AI pulled extremely incorrect information out of its ass

[timid depot]

There's obviously a few intertwined issues at the moment, which is fine, but to be fair they are going for an advanced system in terms of ballistic and damage and stuff happens in real life, plates get weakened, bizarre internal ricochets, angle, velocity, rounds clipping the top of a plate or through the material rather than the plate etc I mean shit happens irl. Armour is some type of insurance but its not a guarantee, same as the ammo, the pen is best case scenario etc.

[gentle aspen]

My experience in short: looks like 5.56 FMJ is the most useful ammo for me.

[coarse temple]

This is a feedback section, not a spam stickers and complain section.

Please comment with your feedback on the matter of this topic and move on, if you have issues or a bug, please report it to #🐞︱bug-reporting-info

[kind magnet]

I hit the guy once, with a single bullet from around 70-100m. How come the death screen sees it as two hits?
I don't have a side screenshot but the entry was from front and no any other markers or arrows. Ban Pa, boss's guard. PvE, EU West server.

Could that be a bug that happens to players also? Sometime players report being hit in a leg for an example like three times in one spot - maybe it's one hit that because of some bug is accounted as three times hit - often these reports include same situation, one wound like from one bullet but multiple hits.

[nova oxide]

fragmentation, no?

[kind magnet]

Fair point. It could be.

[pulsar peak]

Ok, it feels better now, after rounds actually penning, the AIs are dropping more.
There is still issue of AI lacking any unconscious state so even if you get lung shots which would put player down, AI is still threat.
BUT at least there is more pens now, hands are not stopping rounds as much and especially ribs.

[median seal]

Just had 2 XP+ rounds go through my 3++ armour....

[kind magnet]

Yep, after this patch AI drops much faster.

[dreamy estuary]

Good. That was the only thing keeping me from playing

[mint ruin]

Ok, that should definitely not happen.

XP+ should struggle even against IIIA

[vagrant trellis]

I'm seeming to have FMJ bounce on LAF helmets more, likely part of the balance changes for the AP?

[golden oriole]

someone said the AI shooting for gaps in the armor now

[lost creek]

Had another ridiculous encounter with a skorpion again, but instead of headshots ai somehow killed my in the shoulder, broke my arm, and destroyed my heart while i had 3++ on. I buy the unarmored hits, but the shoulder shouldn't be an insta kill, my blood was max, and 7.65 shouldnt pen 3++

[calm tree]

Still not fixed

All head on shots less than 50m away from a new ks1

It seems marginally better but it is far from fixed

[echo tartan]

Was the should from the front or from The side? Also, they have confirmed bullets do ricochet off bones so it's possible it hit bone and got deflected further into the chest.

7.62x51 and x54r still don't seem right. Still no reason to take them over smaller calibers even for distance.

[kind magnet]

I wonder if bruises aren't sometime not from direct hits stopped by vest but from ricochets and fragmentation or so. Like I shot a guy from the front, once and single shot only and he got the medium wound on the front and the bruise on the back.

I'll pay closer attention but it feels like sometime they'd have more wounds and bruises than shots I made.

[fierce bear]

isnt that the entry and 'exit' wound? so the medium wound penned the front plate but was stopped by the back plate? could be wrong lol

[pastel moss]

You should get a bruise when a round is stopped on the strike face of the vest/plate. Getting a bruise because of a stopped round impacting a second plate after getting within the body first HAS to be a bug

[fierce bear]

yeah i think its a bug too, i think its meant to be an exit wound but definitely shouldnt be showing up as a brusie

[kind magnet]

If the exit would was stopped by the plate, then there is exit wound, rather not bruise, I guess.

[dreamy estuary]

Some rounds that should be much stronger are still way underpowered

[dreamy estuary]

I shot him three times before he ran away, then when I found him again I shot him in the shoulder, which killed him. All three of those first shots hit his liver I guess

Before even one shot from .308 to the liver would be a kill

Weird that when I'm on target, with good shot placement, it doesn't result in a kill. Then when I panic fire and miss every vital it's a kill

[median seal]

Didnt they say that we would get ballistic gels so we could see cavitation etc?

@golden oriole posted this earlier, where you can see what cavitation does and all that, i would have thought we would have gotten something like that?

#1487062861627789323 message

Maybe they didn't since it clearly seem that cavitation and maybe tumbling doesn't happen

[maiden rain]

I have a question about the current ballistics of GZW on the 0.4.
It was a Fort Narith soldier I killed with 855 A1. 2 out of 6 shots were stopped.
Except that, the 855 A1 is supposed to penetrate III+ armor, but the soldiers' armor is supposed to resist up to III+.
Personally, it doesn't bother me; one bullet stopped, fine, but three passing right through. Many people think it's a bug. My question is: is it possible that armor could stop a bullet that's supposed to pass right through it, or is it definitely a bug?
i mean, Is there an element of randomness in the code of ballistics that explains why a bullet designed to penetrate does not, and/or why a bullet designed not to penetrate nevertheless passes through the material?

[dreamy estuary]

Partial penetration might be a factor. Bullets do penetrate but lose a lot of their energy in doing so

Given most rounds were nerfed into oblivion

[main phoenix]

Headshots seem to be a lot more lethal on first shot now with the most recent patch. I got 10 kills in a row with headshots directly in the face using FMJ .556 both close and long range. Anyone agree or disagree?

[nova oxide]

they were always lethal, they just fixed the ranging bug that cause your bullets to go lower than what you'd expect.

[rough badge]

Yes, facing AI enemies, it feels like I'm shooting at a Space Marine. They get hit multiple times in the body and still sprint at full speed. When unlucky, it still takes 10 shots to take down an unarmored AI enemy.

I don't know why the development team designed it this way and hasn't made any changes. Compared to the current state, I prefer fighting AI enemies from the 0.3.5 era.

[vital tiger]

anecdotally, i've found organ death in the AI a lot more consistent in 0.4.1; it seems a lot of the sponginess may have been either angled deflections or due to the bullets passing through the arms first; regardless, i've found now that most unarmored enemies will go down with 2-3 shots to the chest, regardless of placement - i've confirmed kills from hitting the heart, lungs, intestines and liver. in terms of ammunition nature, this was on M855, M855A1, 7.62 PP, and 5.45 PP. i've also tried M856A1, to see where the shots are flying via tracer effect.

headshots have always been quite consistent for me; someone mentioned the zeroing bug, but even when it was bugged the offset was consistent, so learning it wasn't particularly difficult once you got used to it - in a previous post i had shown my kill/hits/shots statistics when i tried out every weapon in the game (pre 0.4.1) - all i can say is currently, the hit to kill ratio has gone up due to most consistent ballistics in the torso

[rough badge]

If you're talking about player-to-player damage, then your observation is correct. I should say that it's not that bullet damage has been reduced, but rather that AI enemies have higher "defense." Bullets are just as lethal to players as in previous versions. As for the impact of bullet angle, as early as version 0.3 and even before, the ricochet issue caused by angle was the same as in early 0.4—once the angle became oblique, protective performance increased rapidly (in extreme cases, even a 3A helmet could stop M995). However, at that time, the physical condition of AI enemies wasn't problematic. Under normal circumstances, penetrating an organ with one shot could directly cause death. Even for large-caliber bullets, hitting an area adjacent to the armor-covered zone could still completely destroy organs through cavitation effects, leading to the AI enemy's death. The issue with damage to AI enemies isn't just me—people are talking every day about how AI enemies have abnormally high resistance to bullets.

[quiet tiger]

i just had a dude eat 5 or 6 shoots to the torso of 995 (should have taken a screenshot of how ridiculous it was that he still stood and tried to kill me)

i think one of the contributors is also that AI doesnt pass out at all from blood loss they only die when fully bled out (or you hit the heart/brain/neck)

[kind magnet]

I think system reporting hits on the death screen might be bugged - I shot this guy twice, once in the chest, once in the head. No way me or anyone else (it was only me and AI there) shot him in the back.
This makes me feel that us players might be reporting on wrong basis sometime. I mean in a fire fight things get intense, then what we remember might differ from what happened, and it would bring even more confusion if system reports it with it's own mistakes on top of it.

I mean, there is a chance I missed the shot that supposed to land on his head, but no way I shot him in the back, he didn't spin or made any animation that would suggest that. My two shots were like 0.2 second apart - on semi, not auto.

[median seal]

I have many a death screen i looked at for the AI and there are some very odd angles the bullet hit at and the same for your screen where there are some impossible angles like from behind or from the sky etc

I dunno if its more too much for the server calculating all these things and trying to compensate for lag etc

[vital tiger]

unfortunately, i am actually referring to AI; i have yet to PvP properly in 0.4

[calm tree]

it seem like their guns catching bullets( meybe gun hitboxes) sometime is weird...

And the bullets ricocheting off their guns can make some weird angles of impact on the body. But who knows 🙂

[faint brook]

18 inch AR in TB, close range.

[faint brook]

from my gzw community

[median seal]

How the hell is the AI tanking a round directly to the face?!?!?

[vagrant trellis]

Current feedback:

• Everyone's brought up the trajectories, so I won't go into that because we all know they're off.
• M80 genuinely feels worse than 5.56 FMJ to use, and M80A1 doesn't feel like much of an improvement. It feels like .308 FMJs do not really "know" how to behave. They do not do much flesh damage(which one might expect from FMJ, but it's M80. It should be hurting, especially the A1), and seems to be just anemic against armor at all. I think it might be from it being based on velocity moreso than velocity and weight, but I dunno for certain.
• Durability modifiers for ammo are horrid, at least on the PvE side of things. Personally, I feel like this is moreso due to the durability system at large being problematic(as shown by the quick-fix 50% more durability buff with public release.) than anything else. I'll post more on that in the right channel. For ammo, though, it feels more gamey PvP balancing, compared to being based in realism. 5.56 HPBT, for example, has a -15% durability modifier, which really makes no sense in terms of it compared to FMJ. Part of me hopes to see more cartridge options as the game grows, but I feel like it won't matter as there's basically no real reason to use anything other than FMJ for any caliber, unless you're using looted ammo. Doing a Fort Narith run from the NW gate entrance, hitting the barracks buildings, the gun range, infirmary, and HQ will bring an 100% AK-12 down to about 91% durability with the PP ammo.
• It would be nice to see durability modifiers be based on the cartridge/caliber of the round. Some cartridges are highly pressured and would degrade the weapon more than others, but current durability modifiers do not seem to follow this.

[fading venture]

5.56 is still useless

[frank ether]

5.56 pierce every armor in the game with less recoil, more fire rate, and same damage / fragmentation. I've test every ammo in PvP and the fight is winned by the first who put an headshot or heart. In CQB 5.56 can just full auto in the enemy direction with 60 round mags without recoil so more probabily to headshot or heart, in long range (around 300m because we rarely shoot from further away) 5.56 do same job with less recoil. I've test with many type of ammo .300 - 5.56 -7.62x39 - 7.62x51, with many gun and different modding and actually the 5.56 is better than all other with a better price.

[hybrid knot]

7.62x39 in the Savz is the same as 556 performance wise, it feels like

[vagrant trellis]

Expounding on this, it seems like the issue may be with the cavitation calculations being more heavily based on velocity than the bullet type. In this picture, I took multiple hits from M855, including three to the helmet. By all reason, without context, it should be fatal. However, those bullets were aimed at my friend, who happened to be outside the building, and so those shots went through two to three wooden walls, and were hitting with about as oblique an angle as you can get. One shot, likely on the helmet, ricocheted down to hit lungs. The terminal impacts immensely slowed down the M855, resulting in relatively 'minor' wounds on flesh. (Lemme be clear, this still scared the everliving shit out of me, and I lost 750mL of blood in the time it took to side step, open inventory, and hit the hemostatic) I think this is what is causing 7.62x51mm and other calibers to feel so anemic; by and large, their velocities aren't enough to trigger effective cavitation, and/or the tumbling effective on target.(Which 7.62x39mm is famous for, to my recollection.) This gets further exaugurated by many barrels not offering similar velocity bonuses that 5.56 barrels do.
I do think the game is making massive and wonderful strides, and I am excited to see this system get further refinements, as these systems have such significant promise.

One small sidenote worth mentioning, since it comes up option; notice that the M855 hits to my helmet still showed that they had armor defeat(The lil vest with red x icon) despite being deflected. Going off this, I think the icon is only meant to indicate if the round is normally stopped by that class of armor, not if it actually did. I think this may be what causes a lot of the complaints on this discord and the Reddit, as it may be misread as a "It's telling me it penned but it was just a bruise!" and not "This round is rated to defeat this armor." This is a UI issues and will be posted in another section to point out, but I wanted to note it here.

[fading venture]

I have watched a AI take 15 rounds at point blank and shake it off

[frank ether]

that not a 5.56 issu but ai issu

[vital tiger]

Times like this, it’d help if you could provide a screenshot of the damage information on the body so we can see shot distribution and organ damage

[fading venture]

ill get one next time

[fading venture]

this makes sense

yea there's a serious issue

[vital tiger]

This one actually does; iirc M855A1 is stopped by III++ yeah? Not to mention you damaged his plate down to yellow

[vital tiger]

This one not so much, assuming you’re also using M855A1 and not M855

[fading venture]

I am

[fading venture]

yea but his armor class is lower than what stops A1 it shouldnt have taken that many shots to kill someone

[vital tiger]

so based on that screenshot you took, the darker colored M2 variant is a III++

i just went ingame to check but,

looks like this is in line for the M855A1

but if you want to talk about being unlucky, i got one that'll trump you

[fading venture]

wtf

yea they need to look at these issues fr

[vital tiger]

i think it could be intentional - based on where it hit, if it's simulating angle of attack, it'd be a grazing hit right

[fading venture]

there we go

caught in 4k

[quiet tiger]

free audio book

[fading venture]

yes sir

it talks about the history and violent nature of the KGB

its not even just 556 my friends have clips of 300, 308, 762 etc

[vital tiger]

yeah that guy that spawns there is usually one of the officers iirc

he's got the III++ variant M2

[vagrant trellis]

What rifle, with what barrel?

[fading venture]

KS1

[vagrant trellis]

How far away?

[fading venture]

point blank about 25-50 yards

they even survive point blank 12 gauge 😭

[vagrant trellis]

Level IIIA(may be III), if I recall correctly, can stop full on slugs.

[vagrant trellis]

Hmmm. Hard to say. One thing that is worth remembering is velocity matters a fair bit as well. M193 can punch through NIJ Level IV plates with a sufficient barrel(IRL, at least). The KS1 is a 13.7” barrel, which is… not ideal for velocity, but no slouch. I’m thinking what may be happening is that the 855A1 is losing the velocity needed, though I do think they may have either a cavitation or tumbling issue.(I am leaning towards a tumbling issue, based on other calibers.)

[vagrant trellis]

This also makes some sense; you’re defeating armor, but none of those shots were ‘switches,’ or instant-fatal. The diaphragm and lung shots would’ve done it in 30 seconds or less tho more than likely. You only had one A-zone hit, so it does make some sense ngl.

[fading venture]

IRL if you take a M855A1 or M995 while wearing armor your going down it'll cut thru it same with a 7.62x39 BP round

[echo tartan]

Just be ause it stops it doesn't mean it still wont be immediately fatal/incapacitating. A 1oz slug to IIIA will still cave your chest in.

[vagrant trellis]

Very true, if it’s soft armor! Moreso was to be an example of rating than anything else.

[vagrant trellis]

Entirely depends on armor; level IV is tested with .30-06 AP, same as the BP. There’s a fair few level III ‘special threat’ armor, which is in effect the III++, which can also defeat 855A1. You’re gonna drop but it’s not necessarily ‘cutting through.’

The main thing at play is that for AI, knocking out their hips doesn’t drop them prone, so a lot of shots lower down don’t really do much in terms of having a big effect on them unless it bounces up or they bleed out eventually.

995 can defeat Level IV, but that also requires some stipulations for velocity, but not as much.

I think another big factor is that we only get velocity info off the cartridge in game, it doesn’t specify the barrel length playing a role well.

[timid depot]

Whilst some things are broken at the minute, I also think people are expecting a very straightforward 'this boolet beats this armour' style result every time. Frankly the more complex the ballistics and wounding systems get the more random it will get. And yes people are ignoring the velocity part of best case scenario ammo penetrative rating as well.

[fading venture]

I have seen 300 AP not kill point blank too

[timid depot]

With the point blank stuff it could be a) shit is broken, b) it penned but ice picked through and didn't hit much or c) a + b lol

[fading venture]

its broken man im dead ass

[vagrant trellis]

Very much this. I think the biggest factor this game is teaching gamers is not all fatal shots are created equal.

[vagrant trellis]

It’s not perfect and there’s still more than a few flaws to iron out and more features to add in to complete it, but I ain’t gonna lie chief, a lot of it is just people expecting the game to be like every other where you shoot someone until their healthbar goes to zero and they fold over instantly, but this ain’t that sorta game.

[median seal]

It wasn't anywhere like this pre 0.4

4.1 has helped a lot though

[vagrant trellis]

Yeah, and before, there was a hot period where if you weren’t using 7.62x39mm you weren’t doing jack to the enemy. It’s a balancing act to improve things and develop it further. 4.1 is a massive improvement compared to everything before it, and gives a lot of hope since we aren’t even halfway to the full game.

0.1 was… very harsh on the ballistics front.

[median seal]

I had so many clips i posted up of T2 guys with LVL3 and below armour tanking 7 to 8 shots of M855A1 from point blank where they had time to turn around and fire at me 😄

[vagrant trellis]

It was so rough then. They’d hit you with that 180 spin move 175m headshot first shot through the foliage too

[median seal]

I still feel like cavitation/tumblings isn't being calculated properly or have been made more simplistic as i had lots of clips and screenshots of me "destroying" organs or damaging organs somehow when they were riddled with bullets or had to still kill them by shooting the brain or heart

[fading venture]

we got more

[median seal]

They've definitely lessened the blood loss when shooting them i think, because i've shot AI up to double digits and somehow they haven't lost enough blood from just being riddled with bullet holes, and when i've been shot i barely lose blood, i had one where i got shot 11 times in the leg by a VZ and i barely lost 100ml of blood

[vagrant trellis]

Oh yeah, the tumbling imo is the worst one of it. I get the feeling what may be happening is that when a bullet ricochets off bone, it might ‘reset’ or turn off tumbling. This would explain a lot of issues where a bullet hits a bone, goes into upper torso, but doesn’t do much.

[median seal]

If that round was in the back and you shot him from the front it could have been a follow through shot from the other shots, but 1 round being tanked on a 3+ armour when 3++ stops M855A1 isn't too bad

[median seal]

Ahhh good shout there, that could be very true

That would explain when shooting enemies and you see all the bullet wounds in the arm but nothing on the body, which i saw on pre 0.4 but the bullet would pass through to the body and still inflict more than enough damage to kill em

[vagrant trellis]

Without showing the kill or rotating the body this doesn’t help much ngl

[vagrant trellis]

Yeah. Currently if it hits bone and bounces, you have to hope it ice picks to the heart/brain or do it enough to lungs to speed up the kill

[median seal]

Yup, and maybe its just too computationally heavy for the server, hit reg issues, compensating for lag etc can easily mess up all these things, that's why still now its so inconsistent

A fair few times ive seen bullet shots where the angle easily passes through the lungs and heart but the heart is left undamaged

Or just some really odd and wierd angles of bullets

[vagrant trellis]

I’m really hoping it’s not too hard to compute, because I am really looking forward to seeing the system flesh itself out more. May be a case where a lot of optimization must happen first

[median seal]

I've had bullet shots from behind even though i was firing at them from in front or somehow a bullet has hit them like i was above them

[median seal]

Yeah i suspect so, just takes time to get these optimisations sorted

[vagrant trellis]

It is worth pointing out that the body doesn’t show posture in death. They LOVE hunching over

[median seal]

That is true, though again for me the wound animations sometimes don't even play, i hit them multiple times and none of the animations happen and they just stand there tanking rounds and shooting at me lol

[vagrant trellis]

IMO, if it is lack of tumbling that is the problem, the moment they fix that AI gonna die in droves from bending over and their armor just funneling the bullets in because their plate’s now parallel to the dirt

[vagrant trellis]

Oh yeah. That is another major inconsistency I’ve seen. Doesn’t seem to really consider what the hit is too.

[timid depot]

Rapid single shots, at specific points on the target, tracking those points through the animation, not just at the target in general works most of the time, as it should..most of the time.

[median seal]

Again its a lot of server side compute going on, all these ballistics and AI are all done server side, and its a lot to do, dunno if any game has put that much stress on servers to work through and be responsive

[vagrant trellis]

Honestly, I think at this stage it may almost be worth halving the server player size. Would fix a lot of the looting issues too

[timid depot]

Frankly its one of my favourite parts of the game.

[median seal]

I kinda feel that they should keep it like it is and gather feedback and fix issues so it works as is, its like the whole durability thing, it wasn't really a thing in 0.2 and 0.3 so no one gave feedback, but now it is, there's tons

[vagrant trellis]

Tbf that is just an, “Ah yes, just double the server infrastructure and load,” but still.

[vagrant trellis]

Very true! Only way to know what works is to break it

[median seal]

Lol pretty much, i know it sucks for the playerbase really but this is what EA and Pre-Alpha is for, i think some people forget that even though we paid we are still testers lol

[timid depot]

I also think, judging by the amount of full auto audio I hear, that some are still shooting like its any other shooter instead of shooting 'realistically' like the game kinda wants you to.

[median seal]

This is true, sometimes i hear so much full auto going on lol, i've literally never fired full auto ever

[fading venture]

maybe this helps

[timid depot]

I tried it, its so inefficient, no need. Faster to shoot rapid singles, its faster to transition multiple targets, better ammo/reload management, better accuracy etc. There's a reason its done that way irl.

Full auto you're wasting ammo on a single target, wasting time managing recoil on that target when you could be transitioning to the next. I can clear multiple targets in a room faster on single than i can on full auto and have rounds left.

[nova oxide]

full auto is for pvp

[vagrant trellis]

It can have viability in CQB, but yeah, controlled pairs tends to do better than anything else. Currently I go for 5.56 FMJ as my main squeeze.

[timid depot]

Haven't tried FMJ much, been using 855 standard or 300 Cq mostly, a little 5.45 pp. Might try it for a few runs.

[vagrant trellis]

It’s good if you stick to upper A-zone and headshots. I mainly run it to reduce the burnout on my fancy guns. It can deflect on LAF helmets on some angling, so don’t think it’s a sleeper pick. I normally run it on the KS1, so the accuracy is sufficient to overcome that.
.300BLK CQ is probably the best <100m ammo in the game, tbh. If I run 5.45, it’s probably the AK-12 with PP because I dont care if it burns out, they’re cheap af, and you normally find them where you use them.

[nova oxide]

95% of the time, you can get a full durability ak-12 in a military weapon chest in any of the t3.

[vagrant trellis]

Exactly.

[calm tree]

We have Mr. Heng - testing subject, Mr. Hang have only Lv 3 vest, First shoot to chest and second one to the neck. And question is: Is this first shot deflected off his weapon or bad angle or something wrong?

[echo tartan]

Could have been deflected. I get that happening frequently if their weapon is across their body in an unalerted state

[calm tree]

So wouldn't it be a bad idea to add a little icon +Reflected from weapon+ or something like that?

[echo tartan]

Could but idk how feasible that would be.

[calm tree]

yeah, I don't know either

[dreamy estuary]

If you look at the angles of shots that hit unarmored enemies, you can see that they are all sorts of whack. Stopped rounds don't show an angle, but I'm certain they would look the same. There is something wrong with how the game is seeing those angles, sometimes they are exaggerated. I'm almost 100% certain this is why rounds are deflecting even when head on.

I've found that with their animations, shooting at their sides and armpits will cause impossible shot angles that, even head on, will go through as if shot from the side and blow through every organ

[echo tartan]

That actually tracks. When they bend over from the first hit you'll hit them in the shoulder/ side-on with quick follow up shots.

[vital tiger]

it seems that using M855A1, the bullets just have a random chance of being blocked by armor, regardless of armor class

[vital tiger]

i've shown this before, but since then i've also seen M855A1 get caught by Pantsirs and standard M2s, which shouldn't happen as frequently as it actually does

i don't have the screenshot, but i recall the UI interface indicating a tick on the body armor, which i assume means the game has calculated it as stopped by the plate

which btw, is also shown in the helmet bruise above

[fading venture]

10 yards away

[timid depot]

Maybe the 'bug' or one of them is that high pen ammo just pens too hard lol and basically does 0 'flesh' damage at all or something. Maybe if it hits heart or brain penning is an insta kill but everything else is a bleed out situation. How long was the time to kill from first round hitting, roughly?

The hit showing as a bruise could be not penning because of angle effectively thickening the armour due to a wounded animation or the hit box is just borked. Interesting either way.

[nova oxide]

That entry angle is wild.

Did you shoot them from a roof or?

[fading venture]

nah I was on top

[vagrant trellis]

I mean if it’s 10yds away with that barrel and that ammo it’ll icepick like fuck IRL, probably velocity calculation didn’t allow cavitation.

[wind timber]

So the Ammo Balancing Changes they did with the 0.4.1.0 patch didn't really do anything I still get M855AP and up bouncing of III+ helmets.

[median seal]

Theres no 3+ helmets?

I assume you mean 3A+ but in any case, yeah they do have a chance deflect but it shouldn't be tanking or deflecting any more than 1 and that 1 shouldn't be happening often

[wind timber]

Yes and it's like 1 in 3.

[dreamy estuary]

Shot angles are exaggerated rn. The chances of something deflecting is high

[fading venture]

something isnt adding up

[vital tiger]

the only thing i can say about the ballistics is that in every case where an ammunition nature is stopped by a plate it's supposed to penetrate, the armor icon is shown as ticked - i'd imply that the system is working, albeit either not as intended, or not explained to the majority of players facing the issue

even in the case of IIIA helmets deflecting M855A1, the icon is ticked as well

atleast for the purposes of the player, there's an argument to wear your helmet regardless of what ammo you're up against

[nova oxide]

helmets save lives

[vagrant trellis]

I think the icon doesn't check for if it deflects, only if it is rated to pen.

A possible solution is to change the "stopped by [armor]" by adding "at [velocity]," to help explain that velocity also plays a role in penetration.

[small chasm]

On velocity, even at max range of 400 meters, that round has not lost that much velocity.
If it pens at point blank, it will pen at 400.
BUT, only on a 90 degree perfect angle. The farther out you go, the worse the chance the energy can transferred on straight, but at an angle, reducing forward impact.

[echo tartan]

It will lose enough to make a difference. A heavier, more aerodynamic bullet looses over 600fps at 400. About a 20% decrease in velocity. Hard to say what calculations the game uses tho. But the real world equivalent would out of a 14.5" barrel (it's what info i have access to) loses roughly 1100fps at 400. 2950 at muzzle to 1816 at 400.

[fading venture]

whatever ammo im against if it's the skorpion or the 5.45 PP it kills me thru the best helmet available so its useless tbh

[vital tiger]

these are my stats so far

so yeah, as you can see, about half the time they either penetrate my helmet or just straight up hit me in the face

[compact ledge]

guns against AI fixed in the shoot guns against AI game yet?

[fading venture]

nope

fix the ballistics ffs

[small chasm]

It is significantly better for me, with the M80A1 and the Libra Snail.
Heads shots are killing 99% of the time

[fading venture]

like fr????

[echo tartan]

What's the issue ther?

[small chasm]

gut shots are not kill shots.
What was the distance?

[fading venture]

point blank

[fading venture]

then tell me why as a former LEO I was trained to aim center mass?

[dreamy estuary]

Center mass is just standard. Though bots can't be incapacitated, only killed. That's why it doesn't work

[echo tartan]

Center mass is considered thoracic cavity, not abdomen. Also, LEO training varies wildly by jurisdiction. Some excellent, some just to the letter of the law.

[fading venture]

this is what our qualifying target was

[echo tartan]

That target is about 15 years out of date compared to modern training

But I see where you are coming from

[dreamy estuary]

This is just hilarious

I made sure to get a good, well placed shot right through the heart. "Surely I will finally get a one shot kill to the torso."

[fading venture]

you thought 😂

[small chasm]

Because center mass is not stomach.
It is mid chest, and around the area.
If the target is wearing plates, that target changes

Also, as you know, it is way easier to fire at center mass under stress, then to aim

[fading venture]

M61 slices that shit like butter

[small chasm]

there is no plates in the lower stomach.
M61 when shot in a not hard part of the body, is a quick in and out

[fading venture]

even standard issue ammo in a patrol rifle AR would go thru that shit

[small chasm]

the stomach or III+?

[fading venture]

either one

[small chasm]

855 would struggle if shot at an angle, but would go thru pretty easy on a straight shot

Not really talking about bullet pen, as that is working a lot better now after .4.1, mainly that the stomach shots are not DRT shots

They cause blood loss at a mid rate, and require the AI to bleed out for a bit

[fading venture]

I mean we'll let the gel test do the talking

[slow wadi]

Well let me shoot you with M855 and let me know if you can shoot me from 120 meters away while in agonizing pain. These A.I can do that apparently.

[small chasm]

I get that, I am not saying it does not do damage.
I am saying the AI has to bleed out first

They do not have Dead Right There zone in the stomach.

[slow wadi]

It is also in pre-Alpha so they can fix it so its more close to real life.

[vital tiger]

Just want to point out that centre mass shooting is aimed at the chest, which focuses around the sternum; if you’re shooting someone in the intestines, it’s debilitating but not always considered immediately fatal

Atleast where I’m from, army teaches you to shoot for centre mass, but instructors occasionally point out the real purpose is to blow out the spine

It was passed down to me before that GWOT era adversaries are regularly drugged up and on opioids; mortal wounds won’t always stop a combatant immediately

While the game doesn’t reflect that directly, I do like to point out that if your rounds are directly grouped on lungs, heart or brain, you can expect to pepper them a lot more before they go down

[fading venture]

this is true

[vital tiger]

Also I’ll add that most of the time, if you wing a dude from
Range once or twice in the abdomen before he retreats behind cover, by the time you walk up to him he’s probably died via bleed out

There’s been more than one occasion where I just decided to wait and let a dude bleed out because he was being stubborn, especially in places like MS or FN where you don’t want to run into the open to confirm a kill

[rough badge]

The problem with this situation is that MFG used to do a decent job, but now they've broken it, and there currently seems to be no plan to fix it. I'm concerned it was done intentionally, which would not be a good situation.

[small chasm]

There is a plan to fix it, we just don't know it yet.
AI went down well in .1, .2, and .3, now they do not.
They can see that is an issue

[kind magnet]

There are already some 4 or 5 patches planned in next couple of weeks up to two months - what makes you think there seems to be no plan to fix it?

[faint brook]

If MFG keep creating problems and fix them, wouldn't that essentially mean no progress has been made?

the 0.3 AI, ballistics are good enough, but in 0.4 seems they like to show up the new animation, the whole things just go wrong. player shooting ai just watch they dancing run around and give you headshot at 100yads away, now MFG say "hey! we have new plan to fix it" ok~ then why not just let those things keeping still so you don't need to wasting resources to fix the issue you should not make at start ?

[small chasm]

They changed the ballistics model for .4.

Sometimes to make something better, you have to break it or tear it apart

[main sleet]

“My brain dodge that”

[vital tiger]

man you guys needa provide more screenshots of your invincible AIs; ever since 0.4.1 came out, i've never felt any of the AI were invincible

also preferably your combat/weapon statistics too

[dreamy estuary]

Which is which cause the one on the bottom is devastating. That just shreds

[fading venture]

Which is A1

That you can legally buy btw don’t ask about the price it’s a bit up there

[vital tiger]

many people have testified the EPR is one of the most lethal ammo types ever made

but don't quote me

[main sleet]

The game focuses on realistic ballistics, but the cavity effect of bullets in this version is very poor, especially for large caliber armor piercing bullets like M61 and 7n13. Even if they penetrate the most powerful 3++bulletproof vest at present, the cavity effect is almost the same as none

[faint brook]

In some way I really want have some gore effect to show ballistics work, like how we disarm the ai when shooting they hands or shooting they leg to let them unable to move.
you know, a guys taken lot of shot in the limbs but he still can fight back will let most people think wtf are we against T-800?

for large caliber it should make internal organs exposed when shooting ai abdomen or other parts without armor at body.
One more things, the bullet should destroy the spinal nerves when it hit the mid of body, not just across and nothing happen(Imagine if you hit someone the mid of their neck and the bullet just go through, he just lose some blood and still fight with you, it was ridiculous.)

The SOF training shoot the abdomen to cutting the spinal nerves to paralyze the lower body to enemy. However, in the game, we are unable to achieve this effect.

[fading venture]

like look at this shit fix the fucking game ffs

[faint brook]

[dreamy estuary]

Overpen lol

[dreamy estuary]

Is this supposed to be able to pen that? Idk if it's labeled wrong or if there is a problem with penetration.

Something said to have basically no penetration sliced through III+ ceramic plates like butter

[fading venture]

like whats the issue

center mass

[compact ledge]

week 4 of asking for balistics patch devs

[fading venture]

for real

you need to carry a protractor and do geometry to calculate the angle of impact

[timid depot]

Genuine question, the last pic by MK12, obviously the guy died, he was pretty messed up lol, is it the speed he died that's the issue? Im just wondering because how do you know which shot hit where first. Im probably not explaining myself very well apologies. I mean if you hit him multiple times on rapid single what was the total time to death of the engagement because those hits are all over the place so potentially the more fatal looking shots were late in the shot string. So potentially he was bleeding from the arm shots and then the later shots were nearer the vitals etc if you get what I mean. The total time to death vs the sequence of shot placement matters.

Not saying there isnt an issue, I think their clearly is but I also think at times the problem is being misdiagnosed.

I think at times people are looking at it as i hit the character model x number of times with high pen ammo, why not dead? High pen ammo zips through with little flesh damage so if you don't hit vitals till late in the shot string it will probably look funny but its not unrealistic to a degree, plus there are obviously other issues going on.

To reiterate not trying to belittle people's experience, there's clearly an issue and a lot going on but still.

[dreamy estuary]

I can hit vitals and they still don't go down. I know overpen is a thing with some rounds but when there is a hole in your heart, there is a hole in your heart. Not always an immediate kill but you will not be standing or shooting back

My best example. I have a few more too

[echo tartan]

You'd be surprised. There are videos af guys shot thru the heart and still fighting for up to 60 seconds.

[dreamy estuary]

Drugs? Lmao

Wouldn't be surprised

[echo tartan]

Not necessarily. Just takes that long to lose enough blood pressure

and is very individual dependant

[dreamy estuary]

It would make sense that the system would emulate that and to a degree it used to. It was rare but possible for a shot to not be immediately lethal

Right now it's actually rare for a shot to end up being immediately lethal

[echo tartan]

Idk, its pretty consistent for me if I get a heart shot for the AI to immediately stop. I just keep shooting until the body is on the ground

What gets me is the player death stats.

Like, if you look across a random sampling, I'm willing to bet you'll see greater than 85% of deaths to destroyed brain when it comes to AI killing players. Where before You were morelikely to enter coma and bleed out.

[dreamy estuary]

I believe you. It's not consistent for anyone. For me 1 in 4 AI drop like they should when I hit vitals

[echo tartan]

I have had 0 comas this patch and all my deaths have been immediate.

[dreamy estuary]

Two of my comas have been from a bleed out

Rest of the deaths headshot

It's my fault cause sometimes I ignore a bleed and realized it's serious too late

[fading venture]

357 SIG does a great job of stopping the threat better than 9mm ever could

[median seal]

9 deaths have been headshots out of nowhere and 1 direct from the front heart shot through lvl 3+ armour from an M16 M855 - ZERO comas or bleed outs - I've barely even had to repair any armour, lowest i have ever gotten is 80% on 1 armour, i've never had to repair another set again, same with helmets, only had to repair one once, but my stats show im in the double digits of helmets and armour taking shots

I even saw that i had like 14 shots to the helmet, then after a really short 15 minute run i checked my stats and it was 15, and I DEFINITELY didn't get any shots to the helmet

In 0.3 i went through quite a few armour and helmets, lots of close calls on bleedouts and damaged organs, many a time i coma'd, headshots were pretty rare but understandable

[timid depot]

To your point @median seal I still maintain there is a bug where if the round hits bone say in the arm it then auto penetrates the armour on the player because I get so many lung shots off ai that can't be accounted for purely by angle/armpit shot etc

[median seal]

Hmmm i didn't think that, there could very well be all these weird bugs, just dunno what they did to change so much since 0.3

And don't get me started on all these tanky AI that seem to have all their organs damaged but still require me to shoot their head, or the one where i've literally destroyed their lungs AND heart and i still needed to shoot their head to kill them

As others have said i guess the other issue is that the AI doesn't coma like we do at 3000 ml or something, it would definitely stop us having to hose them down with 20 bullets to kill em lol

Though blood loss seems to be a major issue, i remember getting shot in my little toe with a light wound in 0.3 and i would check to find i've lost a liter of blood lol

[fading venture]

Feel like the NPCs are turning into these guys

[fading venture]

bruh

[dreamy estuary]

Yeah something is up with those stats. I can count on one hand how many times I have been shot and it stopped on plates yet it says 42 for me? I have only had to repair armor once

[fading venture]

bruh

fix this shit

[dreamy estuary]

So there might be a correlation between weapon durability and overall lethality. Built a brand new M4 after the old one was trash worthy and didn't think much of it. This is the first kill with it after it was brand new. Underwhelming damage

For some odd reason, as I kept using it I noticed it was becoming more lethal and my shot placement hadn't really changed much. After hitting 95% my kills started looking more like this. Conistent up until I kept going

[dreamy estuary]

I guess for my specific build it peaks at around 93%. This is what I want to see. After going lower and below 90% It was looking like the first pic all over again

[fading venture]

the game punishes you for using good ammo by the durability wear KEKWLUL

[dreamy estuary]

It truly just boils back down to how harsh durability is on stats. A gun at 90% performs like a gun at 30% should

[fading venture]

so should I just use dogshit ammo then lol

[dreamy estuary]

Yeah and try to find the durability sweet spot lmao

Too high and you overperform, too low and you underperform

Then people have different builds, use different ammo, treat durability different, mix and match parts of different conditions. Not a single two people will have the same experience

So it really explains why sometimes it works for me, and sometimes it just doesn't

[fading venture]

what do you think is the best for T3 for 5.56

[dreamy estuary]

16" barrel, M855A1. It's served me the best out of any other build in terms of lethality

[fading venture]

it still destroys the gun 😭

[primal plover]

yeah i mean i wish the guns wouldn´t break so god damn fast with the durability burn but at the same time the bulletspongey ai does also not help to keep our guns longlivleyhood in a good spot

[chilly lake]

In regards to the ammo, I will keep it to 5.56 for this example, I find it peculiar that ammo that is known to be pretty poor accuracy actually gets an accuracy buff (such as M193, M855, and M855A1) while bullets that are known for grouping well get a debuff (HPBT, if we're talking something like a SMK 77gr).

Could be an interesting way to balance out what ammo to use when if bullets that actually group well but are less effective against armor got the accuracy buff while bullets that don't group well got the debuff. This would be more in-line with reality.
Screenshot of what I am talking about:

[echo tartan]

IS there a way to test if the modifier is directly correlated to MOA? As in the -3% means 3% smaller MOA? i.e 1.00 MOA to 0.97 MOA?

[chilly lake]

Not that i know of, I remember when they redid the modifiers during 0.3 they said that they wanted to make it more intuitive so that modifiers with negative values indicated it being a debuff and those with positive values indicated a buff.

But the guns don't update their MOA stat that is displayed based on the ammo you have in them currently, so... 🤷‍♂️

[echo tartan]

Thats dumb

[tulip sage]

I know that suppressors update the MOA when equipped. Maybe it'll display properly if/when the chamber slot of a gun is added.

Like how in tarkov you can take or put a round into the chamber

So that should enable the stats to be properly updated depending on currently chambered ammo. I don't know the technical details so I could be talking out of my ass though.

[echo tartan]

Yeah. They also need to make n it where you can inspect magazines to see what ammo is in them.

[kind magnet]

When we put mouse cursor over the magazine on the bottom of the magazine the text is scrolling and showing what ammo is inside.

[tulip sage]

I think Schuler means a more detailed breakdown perhaps, like the exact composition assuming a mixed magazine. Like 5.45 PP and BS loaded in the same mag.

[unreal fog]

the .300 CQ is heavily overpriced compared to other ammo's pricing and overall abundance as loot. Same goes for some 7x Nato & eastern rounds. Either make it cheaper or make other AP ammo more expensive and less common.

[dreamy estuary]

"Overpen"

[vital tiger]

so i know we're usually pinging AI in the head and getting annoyed at the deflection, but it actually does go both ways, so i can't complain

this PP bounced off an Exfil

[fading venture]

that makes sense

[dreamy estuary]

Exfil is very good at deflecting afaik

[unreal fog]

"Overpen"
this is too exaggerated in gameplay and should cause more HP damage. FMJ Ammo and effects on NPCs and other players needs some heavy development passes. Either more damage or more detrimental effects of being hit, besides this funny swaying animations.

[fluid ridge]

I think what really exasperates the problem is the AI do not suffer any of the penalties that players do.

They do not enter a comatose state, they do not stop to heal wounds, they’re unaffected by traumatic damage in terms of vision and accuracy and because they don’t fall into comas as they drop below 50% blood, in order for them to actually no longer be a threat, they have to literally bleed out completely and die.

It would feel a lot less robotic if after sustaining something like serious organ damage, it actually took them out of the fight in similar ways that it does to us as players.

I understand they want to create a more realistic simulation of the human body instead of health bars, but currently the AI just act as walking health bars that have to be fully drained in order to remove them as threats

There’s no other dynamics involved. Changing this is what would make using different ammo types actually more interesting too

[rough badge]

The AI can, even in broad daylight, put a bullet into my eye from 150 meters away using a submachine gun with iron sights, but I cannot tell the difference between it and a leaf.

[unreal fog]

The reason is that the AI "vision" can get very compute expensive the more detailed it gets. Right now it seems they have a very mundane and (cheap for the server) method where they only block certain objects but not grass and their engagement diagramms are very simple. Either they find a good coder who can lower the cost while at the same time raise AI targetting and decision complexity or they will be stuck with these zombies and compensating with even worse stuff through different game mechanics or effect (like make them beefier or more or less accurate and so on).

[primal plover]

how the hell did the dude survive that?

[fading venture]

because the ballistics is fubared lmao

[fading venture]

how broken do you want the game to be

yes

[compact ledge]

GUNS IN THE GUN GAME STILL NOT FIXED??? BEEN OVER A MONTH???

RUG PULL WARFARE

[fading venture]

They tell me I have to calculate my angle at point blank center mass range 🤡

[faint brook]

yo, where's the patch? AI still dancing around with my bullet🤣

[rough badge]

Just keep praying — someday in the future, MFG will surely deign to toss us their update patch like a handout.

[fading venture]

can we fix this dumb shit by now

[grand oxide]

We are using a M61 bullets in a M700 rifle and still this guy took to many shots
this is in PVP by the way.

[floral hazel]

There needs to be spinal cord damage. A lot of these guys would drop anyway even if we missed the organs, any damage to spine = paralyzed. Especially getting shot in the neck if that severs the spinal cord to your brain you’re dead.

[tulip schooner]

Can someone at GZW make this make sense to me. These shots were taken within two meters of myself and the enemy. How does a vest that is NIJ III+ stop two shots by rounds that are apparently only stopped by NIJ IV armor. Was it an act of of GZW god? I have over 800 hrs in this game, it's incredibly addicting, but I feel like you are gaslighting me when you say you are fixing the Ai but dont. Convince me this isn't an RPG disguised as a tactical shooter.

[median seal]

tHeReS aLwYs A cHaNcE and mUsTvE bEeN aT aN aNgLe crowd will be out

[rough badge]

Bro, you can't diss RPGs like that. Other RPGs at the same price point have way more content.

🤣

[kind magnet]

Early access buyers be like:

• Good morning, I'd like to buy this car.
• It's early access Sir, it might or might not drive correctly, we need two more years to finish it.
• All right, I'll take it.

A few weeks later...

• This fuckin car doesn't work, why you do nothing about, it piss me off all the time!!?

[compact ledge]

early access buyers be like:

• good morning i'd like to buy this car, it looks like its being built well

• they buy the car and its great, can't wait to see more features

• they take the car back to the factory for a 0.4 'update'

• car now refuses to drive straight, a problem that did not exist previously, but atleast the new heated seats are in!

• its primary function as a car is now worse than before (the guns in the gun game no longer function properly)

• at least its got heated seats!

a few weeks later....

• dickriders will belittle you for pointing this out in the feedback channel designed for providing feedback!

[faint brook]

It's hard to imagine that as a consumer one would choose to defend this game, especially when other consumers bring up the problems.

Early access is not a get-out-of-jail-free card, nor is it an excuse to avoid problems. It's merely a statement telling you that the game is not perfect, but it doesn't mean that you can use this as an excuse when people pointing out it have to improvement. The correct approach is to identify the problems and solve them.

[timid depot]

Equally valid points. To be fair there are also people posting screenshots of shot groupings Stevie Wonder would be embarrassed by complaining about time to kill, people not explaining the order of specific impacts ie non lethal hits before potentially lethal hits etc. Makes it hard to identify the extent of the problem and the factors involved. Then there is the factors of all online games, desync etc, how much is that impacting whether you hit, whether it actually registered, whether you hit where you saw you hit, did the hitbox get blocked, is the hitbox itself bugged. As ever, all feedback is just an indicator of a problem, rarely is it in a useful format right off the bat due to how complex things can be.

[timid depot]

Ok, aside from the variability of the feedback I do think there is clearly a problem. One of the issues is the patches and things going to live. Despite the announced changes in the 4.2 patch i.e. AI and darkness I noticed zero difference in either till yesterday. Logged on and it was pitch black at night in TB and AI behaved very, very differently. So something is up with test patches and what goes to live sometimes imo which may be contributing to a whole host of issues. Back to ballistics. I test stuff constantly so today I decided to take a near 100% MCX with 9" barrel and suppressor using CQ rounds to TB to test against Lvl 2 armour flip flop enjoyers and Lv3+ wearing LAF.

I deliberately, using rapid single shots aimed for centre mass at 50m or less whilst trying to avoid weapon strikes and penetrating arm strikes that ultimately hit centre mass (to eliminate factors like deflection/angle change/loss of velocity due to passing through another object etc). First thing that was immediately apparent was the amount of 'sparking' going on, this usually is a result of deflection off something the round can't penetrate, i.e. the enemy weapon or the armour. Now even allowing for a significant number of weapon strikes and a disparity between my visual and the server it was way too many times to be weapon strikes and some were shots from behind, the side. So that's CQ rounds at full velocity from a 9" barrely (longer than the default 6.75) defelecting or richocheting off Class 2 armour in a wide range of shooting scenario's i.e. angles. Whilst it was a small sample size of say 40-50 engagements, it was at least in the live build.

So somewhat obviously it appears something is up with either the armour values or the ammo values. Interestingly 3+ armour behaved as I would expect.

CQ should defeat Class 2 soft armour with ease. Some victims had significant armour damage if not almost zero'd out class 2 amour. Now I am sure significant damage is done to the armour when it is penned 'cleanly' for want of a better word however I would think that logically the damage to the armour somewhat corresponds to the damage it has successfully mitigated. Therefore in many cases the class 2 armour was not being penned fully in multiple plate strikes and was in fact absorbing that damage which in turn reduced the durability. I don't think that's correct with such a disparity in round pen value and armour value, now and again, odd instances sure, simply random factors. For it to happen multiple times in one test, something is clearly up with those two variables.

Unfortunately there are a 100 different ways those interdependent calculations could be borked so without deeper knowledge of the entire system this is something only the Devs can really examine.

Plus I may be completely wrong on the armour damage mitigation vs armour durability reduction relationship, again without Dev comment its just wild speculation.

[dreamy estuary]

Sometimes I kill, sometimes I see two shots through the heart that didn't even calculate damage and it's the headshot that killed

[timid depot]

Lol unfortunately sometimes its a completely different bug (probably) that gets in the way of figuring out the original bug you are trying to test lol

Rounds just disappearing into the ether of the interwebs is definitely still a thing sadly as well lol

[dreamy estuary]

I've also noticed, at least on my end, most shots that stop on armor don't even show as a bruise, I think maybe this happens when it richlochets?

[dreamy estuary]

Also yes. For testing like this, I shoot at the back to avoid hitting arms and the weapon. I use this as my basis for how many shots to put into AI with certain guns and ammo lol

[dreamy estuary]

I was mistaken lol. He was not wearing a helmet

Wrong reply but whatever

[timid depot]

Ok mini test 2 with 855A1 out of a 10.5". In less than 20 engagements at 100m or less(mostly less) with class 2 soft armour numerous instances of it 'sparking' on what should have been imo solid hits. 3 times on one target.

Only other thing I can think of is a) I may be a new world champion in hitting other people's weapons, b) the weapon hit box is broken lol. Seriously though a lot of the 'spark' hits appeared to be nowhere near the weapon.

Going to try longer barrels and using a scope on static unsuspecting targets next with 995.

[fading venture]

They won’t fix it until the streamers say something about it

[fading venture]

Oh they will give it time 😂

[floral hazel]

The game is better at 0.4 dude 0.3 was poop dick did you even play it?

[dreamy estuary]

"Poop dick" is a crazy descriptor

[floral hazel]

The update made the game better, the ai literally used to shoot you through bushes and one tap you. Also worst ballistics, no loot, whole different factions, less weapons, half of the amazing gun parts weren’t even buyable. If you hate on 0.4 u probably haven’t even played the other ones

Looking at the people reacting most of them literally joined the discord after 0.4 happened. Just complaining to complain lmaooooo didn’t even play previous versions

[echo tartan]

What's the point in looting if you can buy everything? I want parts and guns that can be only looted and I've been here since 0.1. I enjoyed the fact I had to run to a T3 area in Order to get certain gear. Being able to buy everything takes the fun in looting away.

[floral hazel]

Well I will say the gun durability rn is the worst part of this game so if we had to still loot for the best gun parts it would barely matter

Since shit would be useless after like 2 ms raids

[echo tartan]

I still don't get how people are ruining guns after a couple raids but I also dont run M995 all the time either. Ive been using the same DDM4 with 855A1 since about 2 weeks after supporter preview and its still not below 90%

[floral hazel]

I also love to shoot and do cover fire😿

[echo tartan]

I understand the wear system is wonky and gamey and needs work with certain parts, however, using a regular rifle as a SAW will wear it much faster than intended. So thats more on the individual than the system.

[floral hazel]

I mean I’m not putting full mags into bushes but I’ll def fire a couple shots if I’m moving cover or if I’m getting fired from a direction and can’t see them

Or like if they walk into a bush or some sort of shrubbery

[dreamy estuary]

This server I was in was extra tanky. My main problem is these exact same shots on other bots are instant kills, all CQB. However, more often than not it takes 2-3 of these shots that would normally result in a 1-shot kill. When I'm 5 feet away from a bot and tapping direct center mass on the heart, and they don't care and full auto burst into my face it's pretty bad. Whatever ballistics change that happened in between 0.3 and 0.4 needs to be reverted

[merry stump]

the AI enemies are absolute bullet sponges.

High-tier ammo doesn't seem to make a difference. It is absolutely ridiculous that you have to dump multiple rounds into an AI just to drop them, even when using full-power cartridges from an SVD, M700, or AK-308.

But the most unacceptable part is the complete absence of hit reactions or stagger. They can take multiple heavy rounds to the chest, immediately sprint away, and return fire with pinpoint accuracy as if nothing happened. Realistically speaking, even if your body armor stops a full-power rifle round, the sheer kinetic energy and blunt force trauma alone would instantly knock a normal person to the ground. The current state of the AI makes a complete mockery of the 'realism' this game strives for.

[steady sandal]

im having the same issue, a bot just soaked 4 ap x54 ap rounds from my svd in his level 3+ armor from point blank, its starting to urc me in ways i cant explain. Meanwhile you have pvp where that same armor doesnt stand up to anything and i get one shot through it because it destroyed my lung or something.

[tulip sage]

I think the new animations play a part too

Since they can rapidly and dramatically move the bot hit boxes

[steady sandal]

I mean i guess a little bit sure, it just seems like the post pen damage against bots is not there or like they cant go into comas its just instant dead or bleed out with no inbetween. Id like to see the player model of having your limbs broken be more problematic for the at or them get unconned because of a vital organ being ripped apart

[tulip sage]

The bots can't go into comas atm

They have to bleed out all 5.5 liters of blood or have a critical organ destroyed

[echo tartan]

Fwiw, I think this is a server side issue thats needs a back end fix. All systems could be working as intended but if the server has low fps it make have trouble registering what is happening.

[merry stump]

nope, I totally disagree, you could see there are loads of post having screenshots of how ai took numbers of bullets and its just obscure, clearly this is not a server issue, because pvp the damage is fine

[steady sandal]

i know they cant go into comas i clearly stated that im saying that they should also be allowed to

just had a pmc take 20 rounds of bp 545 to the chest and not take any damage then turns on me and destroys heart with one 855a1 round through level 3++

[tranquil scaffold]

If your rifle isn't trying to introduce your shoulder to the front sight when you fire, then the impact of the bullet won't have the force to knock you flat. People getting knocked down by IRL gunshots are due to the body instinctively trying to react to the sudden pain of having previously functional organs ripped through when it hits soft tissue, and people panicking from taking a hit when it luckily gets to be absorbed by ballistic protection. Solid bare steel plates in rigs had the issue where the force would continue to travel through and cause severe bruising and bone breaking, but ballistic plates made within the past two decades have greatly reduced the backface energy transfer to the point that a fair number of personnel in Afghanistan took several rounds in the plate and only realized it during after action checks.

[merry stump]

so u basically saying the sniper rnds are just BBs to anyone who wear armor, u get hit u wipe the dust and chill

[merry stump]

I mean the ai just ran too fast that the bullet seems cause no impact

[calm tree]

still broken? how?

[tranquil scaffold]

I didn't say you won't feel it or won't be shocked. But if body armor rated for the threat takes the hit and it's not a specialty AP round, you're not going to get blown off your feet unless your footing is already unstable.

[dreamy estuary]

It's like a hard punch. If you get knocked down from that you simply weren't ready for it. It hurts but you can still stay standing if your footing is right

[pastel moss]

This thread is just being ignored at this point I feel like. Not a single word on ballistics in the changelog.
I'm afraid what we see here is what MFG would consider normal behaviour

[kind magnet]

Sometime things take longer than expected.
Maybe in 20 years devs would have type to AI :"Make me realistic ballistics for given environment" and things would be coded perfect, yet so far it's still classic work with code where touching one thing could destroy another if done wrong - hence it takes more time sometime than we players wish.

[frigid niche]

there is no way in hell that the first bullet to the head was not a kill shot

THE BULLET IS VISIBLY IN THE BRAIN

[dreamy estuary]

Overpen

[frigid niche]

it shows that it is in a downward angle through the brain. even if it overpenned the skull and brain that is a brain death

[dreamy estuary]

I'm fucking with you lol

[frigid niche]

i wouldnt be surprised if you were but there are people dense enough here to think over pen through a brain with no death is possible lmao

[dreamy estuary]

Though fr it might have deflected off the skull. It's subsonic 4.6. Don't agree with it cause you'd still be fucked up but that's likely what the game simulated

[primal plover]

Nah its just that the ballistics are just fubared

[kind magnet]

Even if it would not be instant death, the top one bullet (not the one that killed yet), it should be instant coma.

[median seal]

Its not a vital organ...

[kind magnet]

For some people defo it's not 🤣

[shut sundial]

Yeah there's no way in hell my helmet would ever have blocked this shot.

[oblique plank]

7,62x39mm BP was a joke on EU West tonight