✅Luma: Final Fantasy VII Remake

[lusty coral]

it's not unique to HDR10.

[frigid fjord]

float getMidGray() {
  float3 lutInputColor = saturate(renodx::color::pq::Encode(0.18f, 100.f));
  float3 lutResult = renodx::lut::Sample(BT709PQToBT2020PQLUT,
                                         View_SharedBilinearClampedSampler,
                                         lutInputColor,
                                         32u);
  float3 lutOutputColor_bt2020 = renodx::color::pq::DecodeSafe(lutResult, 250);

  return renodx::color::y::from::BT2020(lutOutputColor_bt2020);
}

reno version

[lusty coral]

also, you are not suppose to pre-scale aces by the LUT mid grey.

the UCS difference will already account for that later.

just do aces with paper white at 250 nits or whatever is the game neutral paper white (when it doesn't apply any scale)

you can set the default pw relative to that.

[lusty coral]

• well you can, but then it's probably good if you don't re-apply the x of this:
  acesDynamicUCS += UCSDiff;
  and just do
  acesDynamicUCS.yz += UCSDiff.yz;

x is brightness, yz are the hue and saturation

you'd miss on contrast adjuments from the lut

so i think it's better to just do the whole xyz offset and ignroe the mid grey

find a mid gray that matches in general. 0.18 or 0.1 or something, dunno.

doesn't even matter that much.

but something more needs to be broken cuz it can't look so different.
aces1k and acesDynamic should look near identical.

i think there's two issues.
float3 acesDynamic = applyACES(ungraded_bt709, midGray, LumaSettings.GamePaperWhiteNits, LumaSettings.PeakWhiteNits);
this shouldn't be mapped to the user paper and peak white, but to game default hardcoded paper white, and the peak white relative to that.
so
float3 acesDynamic = applyACES(ungraded_bt709, midGray, 250.f, (250.f / LumaSettings.GamePaperWhiteNits) * LumaSettings.PeakWhiteNits);

and correct any Linear_to_PQ if you use them 🙂

needs normalization.

so does PQ_to_Linear

[frigid fjord]

so this becomes:

float3 lutOutputColor_bt2020 = PQ_to_Linear(lutResult) * 250.f;
float3 lutOutputColor_bt2020 = PQ_to_Linear(lutResult) * ( HDR10_MaxWhiteNits / 250.f);

and this becomes:

  float3 lutInputColor = saturate(Linear_to_PQ(0.18f / (100.f)));
  float3 lutInputColor = saturate(Linear_to_PQ(0.18f / (HDR10_MaxWhiteNits / sRGB_WhiteLevelNits)));

[lusty coral]

IMO mid grey is 0.18 * 250

float3 lutInputColor = saturate(Linear_to_PQ(0.18f * 250 / HDR10_MaxWhiteNits));

otherwise, to keep it like musa:
float3 lutInputColor = saturate(Linear_to_PQ(0.18f * 100 / HDR10_MaxWhiteNits));

sRGB_WhiteLevelNits is 80 not 100

[lusty coral]

For you to say. Looks good to me from here.

[frigid fjord]

the conversion from and to ucs does seem to mess up the peak brightness tho

[frigid fjord]

looks good. need to play with it a bit more

[lusty coral]

oklab?

[frigid fjord]

same issue

[frigid fjord]

acesDynamicUCS += UCSDiff;
this makes it go over peak

shouldn't there be some sort of cap in this addition so that values above just become max?

[lusty coral]

the overall luminance peak doesn't matter

what matters is the peak on each channel

that's how TVs work

so even if the luminance is beyond peak, maybe only one channel is actually clipping.

[lusty coral]

if u use pre-adjusted mid grey, you should do yz only.
But again, I don't think that's a good idea.

[frigid fjord]

I just set it to 0.18f on both for the screenshot I sent

[frigid fjord]

should I still do yz only in that case?

[lusty coral]

yes

[frigid fjord]

so what do I need to find to do it correctly?

[lusty coral]

if i recall, ACES outputs 0.1 for 0.18 input

but that's the real full aces

dunno about the UE approximation or the version they used in this game.

0.18 is probably fine.

@noble condor is FF based on UE approx of aces or the real full aces 1?

[noble condor]

full ACES it seems. shortfuse saw they had some ACES listed in credits or something

intro videos maybe don't remember

like the same way games will list if they use havok physics

[lusty coral]

but the ACES curve hardcoded for 1k nits

is probably just taken from UE

it's not the same as the dynamic peak version of ACES from Reno

it'd also be good to know if they did ACES before or after grading in the LUTs.

If the output is exactly 1k in luminance and not clipped, then maybe they did grading first and ACES after.

ideally then, finding the inverse formula of aces would be perfect.

as then you'd get the color grading alone.

aces is a bit destructive, but most of it is revertible

it's not that complicated i think.

[noble condor]

i figured it was done in external software

UE ACES doesn't scale properly

their ACES is a 1:1 match between SDR and HDR

[lusty coral]

that would imply it's grading->ACES

so inverting aces would give us back raw grading in linear HDR

too bad it's pre-clipped.

[frigid fjord]

way too dark now

[lusty coral]

then something is off

test the 3 versions lut 1k dynamic, separately

see where it fails

[frigid fjord]

dynamic without adding ucsdiff, right?

[frigid fjord]

seems to be the aces1k

[frigid fjord]

actually why is this necessary?

    aces1k = BT2020_To_BT709(aces1k);
    aces1k = max(aces1k, 0.f); // Clip colors beyond BT.709

does applying aces maps from bt709 to bt2020?

but actually the dynamic is the one that is too dark

[lusty coral]

No. That's wrong. I assumed the initial color was 2020

Or well, that aces would be configured to output that.

[frigid fjord]

looks better without that, but still too dark

[frigid fjord]

game luts do ouput bt2020 so the first conversion is correct.

[frigid fjord]

will keep working on this later, want to push the fix for now

[frigid fjord]

pre clipped? as in before luts?

[frigid fjord]

✅Luma: Final Fantasy VII Remake

[lusty coral]

it's clipped to BT709 gamut

[frigid fjord]

ah I see

[tidal tartan]

@frigid fjord I don't know if the lights at the start of the game are supposed to be peak brightness or not

but as of latest version they are still way under the peak brightness set in LUMA

all sliders work now you did a stellar job

also the on/off dlss tick differences are starker than before

lol

taa wasn't so ugly when untick

[frigid fjord]

huh, let me check that again. I though I tested and peak brightness was tracking correctly now.

[frigid fjord]

probably the missing LOD bias

[tidal tartan]

might be that lights at the start of game are not supposed to reach peak

i have a 3000 nits display and i need 6000 or so to get 3000 Nits on lights

[lusty coral]

btw, there's a chance UE already had some LOD bias for TAA.

so yours might be additive on top of theirs.

[frigid fjord]

when you get to chapter 2 test in this car. one of the places I know light has peak brightness

[tidal tartan]

i don't intend to replay the game yet 😛 but i'll keep it in my mind

[frigid fjord]

it tracks correctly with peak in that light for me, so it should be working fine. just for some reason those lights aren't peak or something?

[tidal tartan]

right it could be I don't know

[frigid fjord]

funny enough the reason I know this is because it seems that the issues with exposure and lights flickering only happens with those lights with peak brightness.

[tidal tartan]

you should add in the nexus descriptino to take 310.1.3 for CNN since transformer model has issues

[frigid fjord]

Right, good idea

[tidal tartan]

you can say that the mod automatically sets preset E or F depending on DLAA or not, make sure to remove overrides

[lusty coral]

DLSS is now bundled it.

[tidal tartan]

fyi what I meant

but ya could be that they are supposed to be dimmer than peak

[tidal tartan]

@frigid fjord now that i think aboot it, if hutaii adds dlss to mhworld, hdr will still be cursed

[frigid fjord]

I was thinking of making a mod for it in luma at some point and sharing the shaders with him

[vague furnace]

This mod is genuinely transformative. The stock TAA in this game was some of the worst I’ve seen. Being able to use DLSS is a real gift.

Thanks, Pumbo.

[lusty coral]

thanks, though Izueh made this mod 🙂

[frigid fjord]

🫡

[frigid fjord]

man I gotta find a way to fix this dithering issue, look at Jessie's leg

[lusty coral]

You need to remove all dithering btw. Not actually multiply it.

Dlss doesn't work with dithering.

[frigid fjord]

but that would break all transparent effects.

[lusty coral]

Ok. Keep it for them.

[frigid fjord]

keep it for alpha and remove for everything else?

[frigid fjord]

not sure that removing the dithering looks correct either

it got darker?

[lusty coral]

perfect japanese anime hair restored

[lusty coral]

u should add a toggle to make everybody bald

it'd be quite funny

i really wanna see it.

[frigid fjord]

I did it many times by mistake when I was playing around with the transparency. it was quite funny

[tardy dome]

AMD driver bug edition

[frigid fjord]

v1.3 changelog

- Added experimental fix for dithering patterns using DLSS.
- DLSS and Reshade now included.
- Added selection between CNN and Transformer model in menu.
- Fixed some instance of HDR fix not triggering on certain scenes.

@twin turtle want to test it out?

[twin turtle]

Today is a day for battlefield 🫡

I may give it a try later lol

[lusty coral]

Rule n.1: don't play big online games at launch 😄

[twin turtle]

Today is a day for sitting in a queue and thinking about playing battlefield.

[lusty coral]

sounds more right

lemme know how the HDR is

my beloved dice

[twin turtle]

Seemed good in the beta other than no options, but supposedly they added those for release.

[lusty coral]

nope

no options

just peak

which is the only usesless one lol

[twin turtle]

Oh, RIP

[lusty coral]

paper white: don't worry about it, we decide it for you, 500 nits!

[lusty coral]

familiar

[frigid fjord]

dithering there too?

[left lava]

What is recommended to set the ingame hdr settings to?

[frigid fjord]

HDR if you are going to play in hdr

[left lava]

I mean the hdr brightness and luminance

Those still effect the picture

[frigid fjord]

Default. I have to disconnect those settings so they don't work.

[left lava]

Thanks!

[frigid fjord]

@lusty coral Lyal's fix for ultra wide support changes a datatype from int to float and it breaks my code since I was loading it asint(). how should I handle that?

[lusty coral]

What data type

[frigid fjord]

in a cbuffer I was loading the viewport size and offset as integers, but I guess his patch makes them floats. he uses them to center the UI and videos in UW.

[lusty coral]

Ok. Just do the define branches by hash.

I can reach out to Lyall if you need.

[frigid fjord]

I mean it's the same shaders so can't branch

actually I think asint was incorrect and I should have been casting to int instead

[lusty coral]

Show asm

[frigid fjord]

   0  0x000000C4: lt r0.xy, cb0[34].xyxx, v0.xyxx
   1  0x000000E4: lt r0.zw, v0.xxxy, cb0[34].zzzw
   2  0x00000104: and r0.xy, r0.zwzz, r0.xyxx
   3  0x00000120: and r0.x, r0.y, r0.x
   4  0x0000013C: if_nz r0.x
   5  0x00000148:   ftoi r0.xy, v0.xyxx
   6  0x0000015C:   ftoi r1.xy, cb0[34].xyxx
   7  0x00000174:   iadd r1.xy, r0.xyxx, -r1.xyxx
   8  0x00000194:   itof r1.xy, r1.xyxx
   9  0x000001A8:   add r1.xy, r1.xyxx, l(0.500000, 0.500000, 0.000000, 0.000000)
  10  0x000001D0:   mul r1.zw, r1.xxxy, cb0[35].zzzw
  11  0x000001F0:   mul r2.xy, cb0[35].wzww, cb0[35].xyxx
  12  0x00000214:   mad r1.xy, r1.xyxx, cb0[35].zwzz, l(-0.500000, -0.500000, 0.000000, 0.000000)
  13  0x00000248:   mul r2.xy, r2.xyxx, l(0.562500, 1.777778, 0.000000, 0.000000)
  14  0x00000270:   min r2.xy, r2.xyxx, l(1.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000)
  15  0x00000298:   mad r1.xy, r1.xyxx, r2.xyxx, l(0.500000, 0.500000, 0.000000, 0.000000)
  16  0x000002C8:   mad r1.zw, r1.zzzw, cb0[31].xxxy, cb0[30].xxxy
  17  0x000002F4:   mul r1.zw, r1.zzzw, cb0[0].zzzw
  18  0x00000314:   sample_l_indexable(texture2d)(float,float,float,float) r2.xyz, r1.zwzz, t1.xyzw, s0, l(0.000000)

[lusty coral]

Yeah. Floor float to int.

[austere quiver]

Izueh has absolutely cooked with this one
The latest build looks fantastic, probably the best this game has ever looked
The only thing that's lacking IMO is some kind of gamut expansion in HDR to make the game a bit less drab
Prey has it, wonder if it would be possible to port that

[frigid fjord]

I need to get back into making HDR better, going to need @lusty coral to help me out

[frigid fjord]

it looks so much cleaner without the dithering patterns everywhere, the reflections look so good.

we working on a possible generic TAA -> DLAA replacement for UE4 games

[lusty coral]

@noble condor for the rescue

[lusty coral]

so you managed to remove it from almost everywhere? where is it left? Was it replaced with neutral values (e.g. 0.5) to make sure the brightness isn't offsetted?

[frigid fjord]

0.5 is the neutral, removed it everywhere except for transparency

so I look for the discard instruction that is in the transparent materials and don't apply it to those

[noble condor]

I think ShortFuse's UpgradeToneMapPerChannel running in AP1 might be the solution

so previously you were doing upgradetonemap to stretch out the luminance above the ratio of 4.f

since you're capped at that since that's what the luts have baked in

[lusty coral]

pro code

how about this

[lusty coral]

I can imagine dithering also made it look bad at native res, hair and all

[noble condor]

with upgradetonemapperchannel you can find the per channel difference between clipped to rec709 and full ap1 ACES

since if they just clipped it to rec709 that would be a per channel adjustment, you'd be inversing it per channel with upgradetonemapperchannel

[frigid fjord]

going to look at that one and try it out

[twin turtle]

we need to get a link to the luma page pinned in here or something

nvm I'm an idiot it's in the first post

nvm again, the direct download link is outdated lol

@frigid fjord I saw someone mention the black screen issue. That happens when the game isn't running at native output res

so people need to get that setup and then install the mod

ultrawide people in particular are gonna have this problem mostly lol

[twin turtle]

finally checked it out with the dithering fixes, looks so much better. Great work!

[frigid fjord]

oh yeah I haven't merged to main repo I should

[tardy dome]

Soon, I'll play the game

I quite liked the Reno settings I had with the addon

[frigid fjord]

I tried porting reno directly, but for some read on it didn't quite match

[tardy dome]

I've pretty much been listening to the OST without actually playing the game

[tardy dome]

Going to do your own thing or just keep to vanilla?

[frigid fjord]

It's vanilla+ currently, copied what Musa did with Rebirth more or less

[lusty coral]

We need ti post the mod on the Nvidia reddit. Any good comparison screenshots of dlss?

[austere quiver]

The difference is mostly in motion, so it's gonna be hard

Just putting dlss in the title should be enough to get people hard though

[frigid fjord]

only if you use dlaa, it's very apparent if you use any resolution lower than native.

[austere quiver]

Yeah true

[lusty coral]

just set dyanmci res to 50%

looks like crap without DLSS

[frigid fjord]

I gotta do a before and after dithering fix comparison photos too

[twin turtle]

does the dithering fix benefit taa as well?

[austere quiver]

I guess it depends on the native res, at 4K TAA has blended it pretty well

I wonder what the point was in the first place though

[lusty coral]

IGNORANZ

[austere quiver]

I don't think UE4 even does that by default, it seems like something they added
But what is it supposed to archive? Does it increase the performance somehow?

[lusty coral]

IGNORANZ

[austere quiver]

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/007/634/798.jpg

[frigid fjord]

I think TAA was more shimmery without it, but didn't test too much

[frigid fjord]

apparently difference is perceptible a lower resolutions too with DLAA. from a nexus comment

man the hair looks so much less grainy

crazy

[hoary scroll]

thats an insane diff in his hair

[frigid fjord]

this is the one in rebirth common.hlsl?

[noble condor]

ya its just unused

[frigid fjord]

you said it had issues with hue shift, right?

[noble condor]

well its per channel so it'll hue shift, but in this case I guess it's more like it undoes hue shifts if you use it to increase peak

[frigid fjord]

Alright, second attempt to por renodrt to luma

Hopefully this time I do it right

[noble condor]

don't think there's any use in porting renodrt

if you need something to scale peak, then you can use reinhardpiecewiseextended()

[frigid fjord]

I want to have the color grading options figure out some settings.

[noble condor]

In silent hill f I have 2 functions

One goes before tonemap

And it does the highlights, shadows, contrast, etc

Then the other one after does saturation, blowout, highlight saturation, etc

[frigid fjord]

will have a look at that

[frigid fjord]

found it, so just apply ApplyExposureContrastFlareHighlightsShadowsByLuminance beforet tonemap, and this one after ApplySaturationBlowoutHueCorrectionHighlightSaturation. can I use these with the ACES path as well?

[noble condor]

Ya I do that in Jedi survivor

Though hue correction should be hardcoded to 0

[lusty coral]

ApplyExposureContrastFlareHighlightsShadowsByLuminance love me long names

in the 90s this would have been called:
AppExCTRFLHLSHLum

fuck that shit

[noble condor]

applypretonemapgrading

idk

[frigid fjord]

ok so that is the different between ACES ODT and RGCAndRRTAndODT

which one should I be using

also found what people claim is the custom UE engine for the game

https://github.com/narknon/UnrealEngine-CEEnd/blob/7RMain/Engine/Shaders/Private/ACES.ush

[lusty coral]

how's that possible?

i think it's just somebody modding UE until it's close enough to the FF7 engine

[lusty coral]

dunno, it's explained above what their difference is. Musa.

[frigid fjord]

idk, it's from the OpenFF7R community, they have the Remake, Rebirth and Crisis Core branches there

[lusty coral]

ask. I think it's just a copy of UE with some edits to be closer to their engine

doubt they made changes to aces

[frigid fjord]

that would make sense yeah

I asked, hopefully someone knows

[noble condor]

odt is just the tonescaler part, while rrt is the color stuff they do before it

they presumably would have baked both rrt and odt into the LUT

[frigid fjord]

I see, so because you do color grading before in jedi survivor and silent hill you only do ODT?

[noble condor]

in silent hill ue already does rrt before anyway

I do the contrast/highlights/shadows/flare before tonemapping

cause those are adjusting the brightness, so can't come after you scale down the peak

then the saturation stuff is after tonemapping

[frigid fjord]

oh so I have to do RGCAndRRTAndODT in FF7 because it's baked in the lut and not done in UE

[noble condor]

well RGC can be skipped

[frigid fjord]

so just RRTAndODT

[noble condor]

probably

ya

[frigid fjord]

and I should do this all in ap1 colorspace or is bt709 ok?

[noble condor]

RRTAndODT takes either AP0 or AP1 as an input I don't remember

nvm it takes bt709 as input

but operates in ap0/ap1 internally

[frigid fjord]

so there is no downside to doing it all in bt709? color grading as well

[noble condor]

ApplyExposureContrastFlareHighlightsShadowsByLuminance work by luminance not by channel so you have to convert to y anyway, just use the correct y conversion formula

so that doesn't matter

ApplySaturationBlowoutHueCorrectionHighlightSaturation requires bt709 input

[last prism]

Giga based

I’m assuming the same fixes for Rebirth would imply an almost complete starting over?

[lusty coral]

does it have bad hair dithering?

[last prism]

Would need to boot the game to be sure, but I think so? More like it tends to be too grainy no matter what, especially at a distance in the open world

[frigid fjord]

it has the dithering too I remember seeing it while looking trough it in render doc

but no luma shader bytecode modification available for dx12

[last prism]

Ach, DX12, true

[frigid fjord]

maybe can do a simple reshade addon?

[lusty coral]

it is the same if it's shader model 5

DX12 can be SM5

[lusty coral]

SM6 is the problem, it can't be live patched the same

apparently byte code is encrypted or compressed

[frigid fjord]

it is sm6.6

there is the ugly culprit

worth doing a texture replacement for that one texture with neutral values

maybe they no longer do transparency by dithering depth

[frigid fjord]

spoke with Huutaii earlier today, said MHW mod is done. just needs polish. I will start working on some HDR improvements soons so he can ship those with the mod hopefully.

[last prism]

Done, as in... DLSS 2.x+ mod?

[frigid fjord]

DLAA only for now I think but yeah

[last prism]

Yo.

https://tenor.com/view/mujikcboro-seriymujik-gif-24361533

[lusty coral]

sounds like gameplay code

unrelated to graphics

[frigid fjord]

this are mesh and texture modders

but maybe

[frigid fjord]

@lusty coral we don't have Reinhard Piecewise, what is the differen with that and Scalable?

[lusty coral]

dunno I made my own

ReinhardRange or something

at the top

[frigid fjord]

how is that one different from the Scalable in the tonemap function?

[lusty coral]

i don't know

[frigid fjord]

@noble condor having this issue with blowout, is the default value really supposed to be 99?

top image is commented out blowout lines in ApplySaturationBlowoutHueCorrectionHighlightSaturation bottom is blowout at default

[noble condor]

I have it at 99 in jedi survivor cause I'm manually matching renodrt with ACES

99 isn't even enough to match the ACES blowout

blowout at 0 is off

[frigid fjord]

so in this case I should leave it at 0 then?

[noble condor]

i have the slider disabled with ACES in jedi survivor

[frigid fjord]

and with reinhard I should leave it at 0 as well?

[noble condor]

if you wanna match ACES then you could find a value that looks good

like without blowout sometimes skin tones can look too saturated when illuminated

[frigid fjord]

got it

[noble condor]

though idk what's going on with blowout in the image

[frigid fjord]

actually it's not blowout it's highligh saturation, getting black highlights in ACES.

[noble condor]

oh right the slider naming is dumb in renodx

[frigid fjord]

I got it confused

[noble condor]

cause dechroma is blowout in the slider

ya so blowout is basically just a gradual desaturation that affects midtones and also shadows a little

while highlight saturation is a sharper saturation adjustment that only affects highlights

[frigid fjord]

still not sure why I am getting black highlights, but I think there is something wrong with the value, because code shouldn't even run at default settings and I still get the black highlights

[noble condor]

black means NaN

so unsafe math likely

like running pow() on negative numebers for example

would have to do sign(c) * pow(abs(c))

pumbo already has a safe pow function

[frigid fjord]

wonder why it has negative numbers after aces tonemapping

is that normal?

[last prism]

Did you go outside AP1 somehow?

[frigid fjord]

there is a clamp at the end of the function

[last prism]

Hmm

[frigid fjord]

just commenting out code until I find the issue, one second

[last prism]

Negative values (often in the red channel) is not uncommon when doing compositing, as you go from a wide color space like an ARRI’s or RED’s for a plate, to ACEScg which tends to be a bit more narrow that these cameras’ color spaces, but if you’re protected against that on paper…

[frigid fjord]

oh I figured it out hue shift was the culprit

when I set the hue shift value too low it does that

[frigid fjord]

@twin turtle hey busy? feel like testing FF7 HDR and letting me know what you think?

[noble condor]

I had inverted the hue shift slider with aces enabled in Jedi survivor

Hue shift at 100 is no hue correction for ACES

Aces already has hue shifting sine it’s per channel

RenoDRT has no hue shifting since it’s by luminance, so I shift it manually

[twin turtle]

I can, not sure how much help I'll be able to offer though. Not terribly familiar with how it's supposed to look

[frigid fjord]

so I should test the hue shift with reinhard until I find something good. I think reinhard just looks not good compared to ACES. but I am untrained

still too new to this

[frigid fjord]

one second

after I am done with the UE addon I am going to start my first HDR mod from scratch, gonna do Monster Hunter World. So hopefully I can learn what I am doing better with this stuff.

[twin turtle]

what we normally do is treat the vanilla tonemapper like grading for a full range HDR image, and we then give that color to a more neutral tonemapper like one of the ones built into renodrt for display mapping. So you still get the characteristics of whatever tonemapper a game was built for, but with adaptability

honestly, I don't think there's much reason to not simply use ACES for ff7r

it's built for it, it looks solid

[frigid fjord]

@austere quiver thought it lacked gamut expansion. that would be like saturation, right?
#1410414711249309797 message

[twin turtle]

that would basically just be adding highlight saturation

afaik anyway

[frigid fjord]

I added some sliders from reno thanks to Musa

[twin turtle]

you could try doing what musa does with a lot of ACES games. You take the ACES tonemap, you run it by luminance, and also run it per channel. Then you apply the chrominance of per channel onto the luminance tonemap

doing that helps a lot with reds in particular, which tend to look kinda glowy in shadow with per channel tonemappers that do a lot of contrast stuff

but it'll have a subtle and basically universally positive impact on shadow saturation

btw your sdr and sdr on hdr options currently use whatever tonemapper was last selected

[frigid fjord]

yeah I haven't done anything with those

[twin turtle]

okay lol. I figured you might have already known but thought I'd mention just in case

[frigid fjord]

Ideally SDR and HDR would change the setting in game. But I have to find the memory offset to set that.

not sure what to do with SDR on HDR

[frigid fjord]

this is in jedi survivor, but he is doing this during the lutbuilder. but remake has baked luts from files iirc. so I would need to do this on the untonemapped and the lerp with the color after lut?

[twin turtle]

would be weird if they just had premade LUTs and not a lutbuilder.

[frigid fjord]

I could never find the lutbuilder

[twin turtle]

what are you doing now? Ignoring their LUT and running ACES manually?

[twin turtle]

I'm guessing you tried dumping all the shaders and searching for aces parameters right?

[frigid fjord]

I looked for output textures that were 3d luts in the Luma debugger

[twin turtle]

not sure how the luma debugger works, but sometimes lutbuilders only show up during loading screens

[frigid fjord]

What's a good pattern to look for?

[twin turtle]

I haven't had to do it yet so I'm not sure off the top of my head lmao

lemme check an unreal lutbuilder real quick

maybe ap1 conversion constants

r1.x = dot(float3(1.70505154, -0.621790707, -0.0832583979), r0.xyz);
  r1.y = dot(float3(-0.130257145, 1.14080286, -0.0105485283), r0.xyz);
  r1.z = dot(float3(-0.0240032747, -0.128968775, 1.15297174), r0.xyz);```

[frigid fjord]

Let me check all the dumps I have

[twin turtle]

wait let me just look at the ff7r renodx mod

oh, no lutbuilder in that

[frigid fjord]

yeah I started with ff7r renodx mod as a base

the moved to what rebirth did

[twin turtle]

if they didn't do anything with a lutbuilder for that mod, you're probably right and it doesn't exist

wouldn't hurt to check though I guess

[frigid fjord]

anything else I can look for?

[twin turtle]

afaik those ap1 constants would basically be a requirement

so if you don't see anything with that it's probably not there

[frigid fjord]

will ask musa tomorrow about it, time to sleep

maybe I can fix those intense reds

[twin turtle]

it should be as simple as running each one based on peak and just combining them. It's pretty straight forward if you take the functions from renodx

I don't think you need to abandon aces for this

but musa would be the person to ask

[frigid fjord]

Yeah I was uninspired by the results of Reinhard so probably going to focus on improving aces

[austere quiver]

Sorta but not excacly
Pumbo should be able to explain it better how that works

[austere quiver]

The game has aces tonemapper baked into the LUT or something, the implementation is very custom so I dunno if the usual tricks would work here

[twin turtle]

I think the LUT is currently being ignored?

it's so strange that they'd ship a variety of LUTs instead of have a lutbuilder

[austere quiver]

They only use one LUT IIRC?

[frigid fjord]

They use several luts chained

I don't know the exact details

[twin turtle]

I think they'd have to have a new LUT for each peak option?

idk I guess

[frigid fjord]

I guess it's hard to say it's just a different texture during tonemap they could have a bunch. I meant to say they use up to 3 different lut textures at the same time during tonemap.

But I think their peak is baked to 1000 and paper white is 250

And they use some multipliers to lower brightness.

[twin turtle]

oh, for some reason I thought I remembered the game having correct controls

[frigid fjord]

That's very high hopes for a Japanese studio doing custom implementations.

[noble condor]

It’s a lerp to saturate()

I recall remake looking good, just getting it to go outside of bt709 would be nice

[lusty coral]

I just run tonemapping in BT.2020 I think, and lut extrapolatation will generate colors beyond Rec.709

It's different here.

[frigid fjord]

Any idea on how to maybe accomplish this?

[frigid fjord]

@noble condor also can this be replicated on remake?

[noble condor]

Ya

For remake your if you clamp the reference aces to bt709 and then make the other color in upgradetonemapperchannel to be unclamped then I guess the difference between them should recover wcg

[frigid fjord]

I am using upgradetonemapbyluminance on the ACES path, so I would need to change to perchannel then?

[noble condor]

I guess you could run upgradetonemapperchannel but have it just be reference aces vs reference aces clamped to bt709

See if that gets you anything

Then upgradetonemapbyluminance with the custom aces can be done after to scale peak

[frigid fjord]

so completely ignore their custom tonemapping?

don't we need that for colors?

[noble condor]

Wait I’m having a brain fart

I guess upgradetonemapperchannel is fine

Run in ap1

[frigid fjord]

so just keep the same ACES branch and run upgradetonemapperchannel in ap1 then convert back to bt709 without clamping?

[noble condor]

Ya

What happens after you convert back to bt709

I thought it just stays in bt2020 from there

[frigid fjord]

Luma can't output to HDR10 swapchain so I do have to linearize after tho

so it gets combined with UI after and then I convert back to bt709

[noble condor]

If you’re putting it back to bt2020 after film grain then maybe you can just convert the film grain function to bt2020

I think the film grain function just needs bt709 input cause it calculates luminance using the bt709 formula

If you change the formula to bt2020 you should be good to go

[frigid fjord]

so keep the ap1 output from upgradetonemapper channel and don't convert back to bt709 the change the film grain to use bt2020 luminance

sounds good

[noble condor]

Well convert ap1 to bt2020

[frigid fjord]

does RestoreHueAndChrominance need bt709?

nvm I can specify color space

so I can do those things in bt2020

also gotta change ApplySaturationBlowoutHueCorrectionHighlightSaturation to expect bt2020

[frigid fjord]

ok so managed to implement all this finally, got so caught up with unreal engine stuff

gamut is indeed expanded

but the reds are popping more than ever

apply filmgrain doesn't seem to be working even if I pass the bt2020 luminance

[twin turtle]

I did something in the Witcher 3 where I take less of the chrominance of per channel in shadows and more of it in highlights and it ended up looking really good. But tw3 is particularly cursed with per channel tonemapping, and also wasn’t designed for RTGI which made those issues worse. Still though, you could give it a try.

Basically in the chrominance function for the target color I do lerp(tonemapped_bt709_lum, tonemapped_bt709_ch, saturate(tonemapped_bt709_lum_y / midgray))

For a game that mostly looks good, this may not be an improvement though.

Wouldn’t hurt to try it out though lol

[frigid fjord]

is it weird that it looks identical?

also per channel and by luminance don't show much a difference if I stay in bt709

[twin turtle]

I don't think you'd need to stay in bt709 btw, that's just how tw3 is

[frigid fjord]

I know but is it normal for per channel and by luminance to look almost identical?

[twin turtle]

but yeah if per channel and luminance look basically the same, this won't do anything

and idk if it's normal honestly

it can be very scene dependent

it kinda depends how much the tonemapper is manipulating the image

some scenes in tw3, there's barely any difference, other scenes it's night and day

try a low light scene

I know ritsu tried this out in E33 and didn't see much difference either 🤷

but in this scene for tw3, here's per channel, luminance with per channel chrominance, and luminance with my chrominance lerp

plain luminance for reference

tw3 uses hable though

[frigid fjord]

what does seem to make a big difference is to do the tonemapping in bt2020 without converting to bt709

[frigid fjord]

I think the trick if to restore some chrominance, have to figure out what inputs to use and by how much.

not sure how to apply the jedi survivor method to remake

[gusty grotto]

The redonx mod seems to have stoped working since FF7RB was updated today

[frigid fjord]

Rebirth did?

[proud dome]

Yes, just a DLSS MFG patch

[woven acorn]

Ah yeah I was looking if others were having trouble with the renodx addon for Rebirth. It's not working for me either since yesterday's update.

[open folio]

Yeah rebirth needs update

[fiery hound]

Wanted to say thanks all for working on this mod, DLSS looks great.

Unfortunately something doesn't look right here with the dementors

Cutscene in Chapter 4

They have this white fluro pattern on them

Should be like this

Actually need to still test if it's dx11 issue or mod issue

Yeah doesn't seem to happen with -dx11 but no mod

[frigid fjord]

Can you turn off the experimental dithering fix in the advance settings and restart?

[fiery hound]

Looks normal with dithering fix off

Also sorry if this is talked about on Nexus or something but game always starts in SDR for some reason

[frigid fjord]

Ah I will do an update soon

Haven't had time

[frigid fjord]

This is in chapter 4 right?

[fiery hound]

Yeah

[frigid fjord]

Is that the only place you have noticed they look wrong?

[fiery hound]

Tbh I'm not playing through the game at the moment nor do I really have time to, I just enjoy seeing you guys progress with mods lol. This just happens to be the sequence I use as a good GPU stress test.

But nothing else stood out just running through sector 7.

[frigid fjord]

do you happen to have a save file in this scene?

[frigid fjord]

I think there are some types of materials that do get screwed up by not having dithering for some reason. I think I need to try and limit the dithering fix to shadows and reflections only somehow.

[lusty coral]

That's weird

[frigid fjord]

Playing through the chapter to get to that part. Will try to figure it out.

[frigid fjord]

replacing the dithering for the cloaked guys with 0.5 fucks it up somehow.

[frigid fjord]

ok so the shader responsible for drawing these ghost seems to be doing way more stuff than the regular material shader.

they use the values from the dithering texture for other stuff I don't understand later on

[lusty coral]

Find another pattern for them and disable the patching for them

[frigid fjord]

yeah I need to compare it with more stuff to make sure

[frigid fjord]

I think I can use SampleGrad to filter out this shader safely without affecting anything else

[fiery hound]

@frigid fjord yeah but I'm not at home for the weekend

[frigid fjord]

I got it, no worries. Think I got a fix as well.

[frigid fjord]

There is something really odd with this game. No matter what I do I get stack overflow when calling the fsr3 implementation 🤔

[lusty coral]

well it could be their own stack is already huge

[frigid fjord]

It's odd, it's a similar function when calling the dlss implementation tho

[lusty coral]

yeah but DLSS is done in a dll

and might just allocate stuff in the heap

[frigid fjord]

But it crashes in the Luma side, as soon as the update settings function is called. Never gets to the actual fsr code

[frigid fjord]

So it's all a bit puzzling to me. I think there is a way to patch stack size in an exe. Will try that tomorrow maybe

[frigid fjord]

patching exe didn't work either

[frigid fjord]

the issues is definitely the stack size, gotta keep moving stuff to the heap

[frigid fjord]

something very wrong with FSR3 top left where the motion vector should be is just white for some reason

[lusty coral]

did you add the state restoration code?

dunno tbh.

[frigid fjord]

No since I didn't move any srvs or buffers around. But maybe I should before and after Sr draw.

[lusty coral]

you won't, but FSR will

[frigid fjord]

it helped with another issue but the motion vectors are still blank

[lusty coral]

could be an incompatible format?

try to create them with the Unordered Access flag?

if they work in the Unreal Engine mod

it's gotta be a difference between these.

[frigid fjord]

ok I had to make sure that the motion vector render target was not set when calling fsr draw it messes it up.

[frigid fjord]

we gucci now. I think this issue is there also in the UE mod which is why I didn't look quite right. should be able to port this there as well.

fsr doesn't have flickering lights issues with auto exposure either

might be just strictly superior at native resolution

[frigid fjord]

Never thought that fsr3 would have a more stable image than dlss

[lusty coral]

crazy.

[lusty coral]

yeah, always clearing render targets is the most important state

because if you try to set it as SRV while it's a RTV, it will reject it

which means that even restoring the state can fail to be done properly

unless you clear the RTV first

one of the few "annoying" things about DX11

now take that, and multiply it by 800

now u have DX12

[frigid fjord]

Now I wonder what causes the issue really, maybe it's unfixable unless bloom gets disabled for dlss.

[lusty coral]

yeah, other than suboptimal exposure

there's not much you can do

if you analize the raw frames

and they don't flicker

then it's just a bug with DLSS

could be solved eventually by new models

[frigid fjord]

This is what I do, it causes a small amount of smearing in low light, but better than constant flickering lights.

[lusty coral]

but do the raw buffers ficler?

flicker

[frigid fjord]

without bloom not in any noticeable way that I can tell

besides aliasing

[lusty coral]

and it's the bloom after that generates the flickering?

[frigid fjord]

only noticeable after bloom in the lights.

[lusty coral]

you could force bloom b4 DLSS

not a great idea but it could fix that

or, add a temporal pass to bloom

or try to generate bloom from 4 pixels average instead of 1, so it's kinda pre-blurred, possibly more temporally stable

[frigid fjord]

like run dlaa on the bloom image as well before it gets combined?

[lusty coral]

reality is that DLSS here is messing up the resolve on light edges.

and alone it wouldn't be so noticeable

but somehow in this this game, a small flicker on lights edges can cause big changes in bloom

[frigid fjord]

I do notice a general flicker sometimes in the screen in bright areas. but nothing like the constant flickering lights

[lusty coral]

yeah

[frigid fjord]

during the mips generation or just at the end?

[lusty coral]

when sampled

from
tex.Sample(linear, uv);
to
tex.Sample(linear+(1,0)/res, uv);
tex.Sample(linear+(0,1)/res, uv);
tex.Sample(linear+(1,1)/res, uv);

[frigid fjord]

will give this a try. will otherwise leave auto exposure on for fsr3 and sub par exposure for dlss

[lusty coral]

are they like 9999 nits?

[frigid fjord]

before tonemapping, yeah

[lusty coral]

that's why

they are just unreliasticailly bright

they pulled up the sliders to max

[frigid fjord]

any way to fix that? do you have to fix the material texture?

[lusty coral]

so there's 3 problems:

• float starts to loose detail at these ranges
• dlss compresses colors to a 0-1 range, so it probably further loses quality on these extreme values
• in general, DLSS code isn't meant for randomly high values

there's no exposure that can fix these

and most importantly

they are so bright that they will skew the exposure

so if there's any exposure calculation, it should be clamped to 5000 nits or something.

ignore anything above.

and possibly also pre-clamp these b4 DLSS.

the only solution i can think of is finding the shader for them

and as they grow bigger in value, shrink them.

like map 4000 to 4000, but 6000 to 5500, 1000 to 8000 etc

u could also clamp bloom to a maximum.

it could be the whole light is temporally unstable in rgb values

but then after TM it compresses to roughly 1000 nits anyway, so it's hard to notice.

hence why the problem only appears with bloom.

[frigid fjord]

so a rolloff on the output of those shaders?

[lusty coral]

yeah

or, adding a history buffer on bloom, with camera reprojection. that'll fix it too.

[frigid fjord]

so save the previous frame bloom texture? not sure how to do camera reprojection. same as with motion vector?

[lusty coral]

yes

[frigid fjord]

I have the shaders that draw the lights so maybe I will start there. I should do the clamp on the final output of the shader

[frigid fjord]

actually the flickering just seems to be there in the render 💀 wtf

[lusty coral]

uh? the lamps just disappear?

[frigid fjord]

yeah moving the camera around can cause them to flicker or disappear

[frigid fjord]

there has to be some floating point error somewhere right?

[lusty coral]

that's the depth buffer

they might be emissive planes

but if that was the case, lights would disappear even with the original TAA

it doesn't check out

[frigid fjord]

yeah they don't seem to disappear with fsr3 or taa in the final image but I can confirm they also flicker while debugging that pass with those on

[lusty coral]

tha's the albedo buffer?

[frigid fjord]

It flickers in all the buffers

[frigid fjord]

save me from this nightmare

[tardy dome]

I have my own nightmares to deal with

[frigid fjord]

oh ok so gpu culling is apparently what is causing the flicker and it can be solved by writing to the depth in the shader instead of letting the gpu figure it out or something like this.

learning so much stuff

going to combine this the roll off for the brightness and the neighbor sampling and see if this now solves the issue.

[frigid fjord]

so how does the math for this look? I added the previous frame bloom and the motion vectors to the shader

[lusty coral]

i'm not too sure, interpolating two frames.

with motion vectors

[frigid fjord]

let me see if I can find anything online with this

[frigid fjord]

finally got the bloom to a level in which I am happy with

I have found some lights that still flicker using the cnn model, but it's less noticeable and I think having correct exposure is worth it.

now gotta figure out how to reset the dlss history properly now

The spatial blur worked better than the temporal fix. At least to my ability to implement one.

[lusty coral]

Next step: fixing the shadow noise pattern in all UE games 🙂

[lusty coral]

Which one?

Well if it works and doesn't compromise the quality of bloom, all good.

[lusty coral]

You were using auto exp before?

[frigid fjord]

Yeah need a list of games that have it so I can find the pattern. So I need to buy some games.

[frigid fjord]

No I was using some estimation that seemed to work. It had more ghosting but eliminated the lights flickering.

Now I can use auto exposure instead

[frigid fjord]

I'm using the one with the lerp that you shared that

Seems yo work well think I'll use a 9 sample 3x3 instead of 4x4 tho. Will test some more tomorrow

[lusty coral]

Ok

[lusty coral]

Show

[frigid fjord]

  float3 center = t1.Sample(s1_s, r0.xy).xyz;
  float3 minN = HDR10_MaxWhiteNits;
  float3 maxN = -HDR10_MaxWhiteNits;
  [unroll]
  for (float x = -1.5; x <= 1.5; x += 1.0)
  {
    [unroll]
    for (float y = -1.5; y <= 1.5; y += 1.0)
    {
      float3 s = t1.Sample(s1_s, r0.xy + float2(x, y) * texelSize).xyz;
      minN = min(minN, s);
      maxN = max(maxN, s);
      float3 prevMinN = minN;
      minN = lerp(minN, maxN, 0.25);
      maxN = lerp(prevMinN, maxN, 0.75);
    }
  }
  r0.xyz = clamp(center, minN, maxN) * LumaSettings.GameSettings.custom_bloom;
 }

[frigid fjord]

this is the temporal one

      float3 currentBloom = t1.Sample(s1_s, r0.xy).xyz;


      float2 motionPixels = t3.SampleLevel(s1_s, r0.xy, 0).xy;
      motionPixels = -motionPixels; 
      float2 motionUV = motionPixels * LumaData.GameData.RenderResolution.zw;

      float2 prevUV = r0.xy - motionUV;
      
      bool validHistory = all(prevUV >= 0.0) && all(prevUV <= 1.0);

      float historyWeight = validHistory ? LumaData.GameData.BloomHistoryWeight.x : 0.0;

      if (historyWeight > 0.0) {
          float3 prevBloom = t2.Sample(s1_s, prevUV).xyz;
          
          currentBloom = lerp(currentBloom, prevBloom, historyWeight);
      }
      
      r0.xyz = currentBloom * LumaSettings.GameSettings.custom_bloom;

also there is this in the view struct
VIEW_UNIFORM_BUFFER_MEMBER_EX(float, CameraCut, EShaderPrecisionModifier::Half)

going to be tough to find it for the generic mod tho

[frigid fjord]

@lusty coral TAA may skip drawing altogether when a cut happens or something. Whenever I get the cameracut variable to be true the TAA pass doesn't seem to run.

it may also just run a slightly different shader with a different hash

[frigid fjord]

Latest improvements

- FSR3 fully implemented
- Fixed graphical glitches in some materials due to dithering fix (i.e plot ghosts)
- Removed HDR and SDR from menu and is now detected from game setting
- Fixed issue that would cause bright lights to flicker when using DLSS

[twin turtle]

That last one is a common issue even with native DLSS implementations in unreal

Would be funny if your generic plugin ends up being higher quality than the native one lol

[hoary scroll]

[frigid fjord]

Yeah it is, I reduced the brightness of some lights to fix it. It was very manual tho.

It has a bit less bloom but it's far better than the constant flickering.

[frigid fjord]

I also forgot to apply the dithering fix to the light shaders I replaced since they aren't automatically patched anymore.

[frigid fjord]

getting there, something still very wrong with GTAO

[frigid fjord]

getting better, GTAO missing details from thin objects like the grass tho.

[lusty coral]

Their old AO looks spatial

[lusty coral]

Tweak the radius.

[frigid fjord]

this is before the denoiser

[frigid fjord]

what units is the radius in, what's usually a good value to start tweaking from?

[sleek imp]

wait are you planning to add GTAO now?!!

[frigid fjord]

Yeah. It's pretty much added already just gotta tweak the settings.

[sleek imp]

I'll wait for it then!

[lusty coral]

Slider and try

[frigid fjord]

Yeah it's just a lot of variables to play with.

[frigid fjord]

Does it matter that Ue4 units are in cm?

[lusty coral]

I don't know 🤣. I don't remember anything. You can give up asking me questions.

[frigid fjord]

don't know why it didn't occur to me but UE had a GTAO implementation at some point I can just look at what constant values they use.

[frigid fjord]

thoughts?

[lusty coral]

is GTAO the second colors picture?

[frigid fjord]

no, top pictures are gtao bottom ssao

actually no

bottom is gtao

[hoary scroll]

[lusty coral]

the one with shadow under the sayan guy shoes is GTAO

and fallen leaves too

[frigid fjord]

yes

[lusty coral]

the previous AO was darkening some completely random stuff, like the floor, or areas around characters

for no reason

[frigid fjord]

I am still tweaking the values, but it's looking good

[lusty coral]

however, it clearly also had a wider range

radius*

which might have prevented it from generating shadow under the fallen leaves, and shoes

theoretically there should be no empty space between the shoes and the floor...

but video games collisions are like that...

[frigid fjord]

so I can reduce this, but then I get no shadow on the grass.

trade offs

[lusty coral]

one rooftop gets darkened with GTAO and one with the native AO

r u sure the matrices are done properly

and that the results don't change when you rotate the camera?

darkening below the shoe is theoretically correct for how the scene is, however NOT doing it, might actually look better as it prevents you from noticing there's a space between the shoe and the floor

[tidal ridge]

really transformative. i couldnt even tell the 2nd example was from ff7

[frigid fjord]

yeah pretty sure, I used the same matrix that they used in the original ssao to convert to world units

it doesn't change on camera rotation

[lusty coral]

the AO they had around little grass bushes was terrible though

[lusty coral]

it took me quite a lot of time to find the best values for Prey

[frigid fjord]

yes it was a big halo effect, but now there is none.

[lusty coral]

especially because values that looked good up close

didn't look good far

it either had too much AO close by, and too little far, or opposite

i think i had to add some code to intensify the AO that was far away from the camera

to match it with vanilla

as some level design views were relying on that AO

GTAO here also seems to darken hair, where it probably shouldn't, especially because the game wasn't developed with it.

[frigid fjord]

yeah I saw that code. maybe I should port that over.

[lusty coral]

I'd tweak the radius and a few other params.

that looked better b4

[frigid fjord]

yeah tweaking radius and thin object compensation rn

[lusty coral]

this is also weird with GTAO

the prev AO had a huge radius

[frigid fjord]

it did it was 0.17 * 500

so 85cm radius

[lusty coral]

u might need to keep it similar

there will be stuff that rely on it

at least far in the distance

[lusty coral]

i think it's a screen space radius

i adjusted it by depth

in Prey

I think Marty's reshade AO also does

[frigid fjord]

so don't convert depth to world units?

[frigid fjord]

looks like too much when I have it at a similar value, haloing everywhere.

[frigid fjord]

I think these values are looking better, but gotta test more places

This wouldn't be too hard to add to the unreal engine generic. But people would need to tweak those values per game. Probably not worth it.

[lusty coral]

Why?

[frigid fjord]

Why not worth?

[lusty coral]

Why hard to balance

[frigid fjord]

Like tweaking the radius would be a per game thing, right?

[lusty coral]

I don't think so. Once you match the UE look, it would work in all games.

[frigid fjord]

so I guess sensible defaults and add sliders under advance settings for radius and thin object compensation. I think if I look for the depth sampling and the depth transformation math I can find the ssao shader. after that it should be just calling the same shader from ff7 just taking the matrix or even doing it by depth like you do.

will probably leverate the ue denoiser so I don';t have to find and skip those to use the gtao one

[frigid fjord]

I think what they do is have a huge radius with a very soft effect, so it darkens stuff around but not too much.

[lusty coral]

are you using depth mips?

[frigid fjord]

yes, I looked at how @brazen niche did it in bioshock

[frigid fjord]

managed to map all the in-game parameters to the gtao equivalents, image is pretty vanilla+ now. still has issues around the legs the radius is too big and does a bit of haloing.

[lusty coral]

that little animation discord does between screenshots ruins the comparison

[lusty coral]

the og AO has some nonsense darkening on any floor

like why...?

[frigid fjord]

I don't know if Square devs fucked it up or if its UE's fault but yeah it just darkens things very randomly.

[lusty coral]

conflicted about this

it might have taken into considerations Normals too much

that's probably why the floor was like that

are you sure the normals in UE were bent?

[lusty coral]

then again, it kinda makes sense that it did?

[frigid fjord]

not sure, I can I confirm?

[lusty coral]

i guess, check how the GTAO implementation was, and see if it did anything with normals

or check the UE version of FF and search "bent.*normal"

can u exclude hair with some stencil flag?

but yeah GTAO looks more like ray tracing

@sage oak opinions?

[frigid fjord]

not sure, best I found was to increase the thin object compensation. also helps with the leg haloing.

[frigid fjord]

I don't think they use bent normals for their GTAO, I see that lumenAO does, no reference in GTAO.

[sage oak]

Do this:

• check if the normals are viewspace or camera space. If a flat plane changes its apparent normal vector depending on how far away it is, then it's viewspace, if not camera space.
• quadruple check if your FOV stuff is correct. Wrong linearization will bias angles and it looks off subtly

[frigid fjord]

looks like camera space, will check the fov math later. I am computing it directly from projection matrix so I think that is fine.

[sage oak]

mmm hard to tell that game has such a low FOV it makes me nauseous just from this clip

the lower the FOV the less that effect is

oh wait actually

that's worldspace

the colors don't rotate with the camera

[frigid fjord]

Oh yeah that actually makes sense they do convert depth to world units as well (cm)

[sage oak]

well worldspace means the normals point the direction they do in the game world, irrespective to the camera. So north/west instead of left, forward relative to cam

you need viewprojection matrix (or rather the inverse) to get them into the correct space

the original AO must have access to it, I don't know a single AO that uses worldspace only

[frigid fjord]

Let me read the ue source.

[frigid fjord]

Yeah they do world to view space convertion. Will review my code later. Thanks for the help.

[frigid fjord]

ok finally made it back home so I can check. I do convert both depth and normals to view space.

which is what the xeGTAO expects

[lusty coral]

these still make me doubt

why is the leg darkened so much?

why are the "U" shapes in the roof swapping in darkening pattern when the angle of the roof changes

[frigid fjord]

going to double check my conversion to view space. what do you mean exactly by the u shapes swapping?

[frigid fjord]

actually pretty sure this image is from the ssao

I do see what you mean now about the the pattern swapping

u shape pattern does appear straight depending on camera angle, should this not be the case?

[lusty coral]

i feel like it shoulldn't

it doesn't know where the light comes from

so why would it change

[frigid fjord]

right, there probably is some mistake still. will debug more closely on Friday. Will also add the bent normals code.

[frigid fjord]

New version out on nexus with a WIP GTAO implementation

[frigid fjord]

anyone can test the latest nexus version to see if it has the slowdown(memory leak) issues?

I tested and it seemed to work

[verbal steeple]

ill test rn

no issues so far, how fast does it take to appear? new GTAO looks very nice, never noticed how over darkened places looked before until now

[frigid fjord]

it was pretty evident right away when you got in combat

[frigid fjord]

yeah it's very obvious when you toggle back and forth how their ssao darkens all sorts of stuff it shouldn't

[verbal steeple]

yea works great then

[tidal tartan]

@left folio @steady pier go tester le gtao les bouffons

[left folio]

Azy

[frigid fjord]

let me know if yall want sliders to find better values

I tried reusing their AO values

[left folio]

Off vs on

@tidal tartan

More details in dark areas I think

Thanks a lot Izueh, Luma is litteraly ground breaking with this game

[proud dome]

La nonchalence, niveau 9000

[left folio]

[left folio]

Tkt on a l'habitude avec ce golem d'argile

[verbal steeple]

did notice flickering in some areas with gtao, could be me messing with LOD bias in ini making reflections weird

[tidal tartan]

Retourne sur kirby et son faux hdr le multidosé

[left folio]

https://tenor.com/view/silly-dog-silly-dog-propeller-hat-propeller-hat-dog-gif-4764495627579170054

[tidal tartan]

Need gtao to rebirth slop

[proud dome]

Le coup bas

[frigid fjord]

denoiser issues or mips issues, try changing quality in the advance settings.

[fiery hound]

I don't have time to look at it this week but I just want to say you're the G O A T

[frigid fjord]

where did you notice this if you don't mind

[verbal steeple]

i tried reproducing it and it didnt work 🤔 noticed it initially in mako reactor area in 1st chapter *on rafters before scorpion boss

[verbal steeple]

not seeing any flickering still while progressing through, and didnt change any settings

[sleek imp]

I paused my play through till you add GTAO
I’ll test asap!
DLAA was already a massive upgrade to the game
Thank you very much for your hard work🙏

[sleek imp]

so I've tested it in Chapter 3 and it looks so much better and accurate! especially at Ultra setting

I will upload some pics with vanilla, default XeGTAO and Ultra XeGTAO

[frigid fjord]

The difference in the grass is huge. The huge dark halo on the grass is crazy with the default AO, once I noticed it while testing GTAO I couldn't believe it.

[sleek imp]

Here's a comparison you can tell which is which by GPU usage, vanila< default XeGTAO< Ultra XeGTAO

[sleek imp]

I'm in the Slums so there's on grass there but the vanilia AO seems random in coverage

Vanilla\Default XeGTAO\Ultra XeGTAO

Vanilla\Default XeGTAO\Ultra XeGTAO

[frigid fjord]

Do you think the default setting is a good balance?

[sleek imp]

I'm not an expert lol but it looks superior to the original

and yeah maxed out has a big performance impact with little difference to be honest

[fiery hound]

Seems like using r.DynamicRes.MinScreenPercentage/r.DynamicRes.MaxScreenPercentage + GTAO is causing a problem

AO bugging out

[frigid fjord]

Oh dynamic resolution isnt working right, I'll fix that

[frigid fjord]

What exactly are your settings? Initially seems to be working for me

[fiery hound]

I have min as 70 and max as 85

It could be causing a problem in conjunction with some other variable I have in my ini.
I can check later

[fiery hound]

yeah boss it still happens after deleting everything else from my .ini

[fiery hound]

not sure what else is helpful, high settings 4K output and HDR. Seems to happen regardless of upscaler

Also this is super nitpicky but i somehow came accross this. If you stand at this exact spot in sector 7 at night, outside the hunter's lodge, at this exact camera angle. You will see the GTAO get fucky around cloud's feet when his feet move over that little gap in the metal sheets.

sorry I don't have an easy way to capture video

[frigid fjord]

Try deleting Luma folder and reshade ini and copying Luma folder again.

[fiery hound]

Yeah I tried it already, forgot to mention that

[frigid fjord]

Let me see if I can reproduce in this spot

[fiery hound]

I should be clearer, that was a small issue I found with no dynamic res and the GTAO otherwise seeming to be working normally.

The broken ao with dynamic res is really obvious like in my first screenshot

[frigid fjord]

For some reason I couldn't reproduce your issue with dynamic res at all.

[fiery hound]

Whack

Do you have anything else in your engine.ini?

[frigid fjord]

[frigid fjord]

no, but managed to reproduce the issue

[tidal tartan]

Was just cloud using sandevistan

[frigid fjord]

He is moving super fast actually, what you are seeing is the after images 🤓

[steady pier]

Everything is working as intented for me, the GTAO looks amazing ! I just find some place to be a little bit too dark, making details less visible. It's more obvious during underground gameplay in a specific chapter

it might be me or just the gamma setting idk

[frigid fjord]

darker than the default ao?

[steady pier]

left is off right is on. Is it just me ?

now that I look at it, maybe it's just me nvm

[frigid fjord]

wait that Aerith dress, send link to that mod

[steady pier]

sure lemme find it

[steady pier]

https://www.nexusmods.com/finalfantasy7remake/mods/1403?tab=files think it's this one

[frigid fjord]

happens with the default AO, actually I think this is an issue with the reflections

[austere quiver]

I really like the fact they ported every model from every UE game ever to the Remake but not the Rebirth models

[frigid fjord]

People didn't like a lot of the changes to the models inr rebirth I think

[austere quiver]

Why? They are objectively better
The issues was with the skin shader in rebirth mostly, it makes everyone looks like dolls

But the models themselves are just higher poly and res versions of those from the remake

https://cgworld.jp/article/202408-ff7reb-02.html

[frigid fjord]

Quality wise for sure, but artistically people don't like some subtle changes to appearances.

Also, found the models from rebirth. They have them in the openff7r modding community in their archives

[austere quiver]

Weird no one posted them on nexus

afaik

[frigid fjord]

#986110702613831761 message

[frigid fjord]

@fiery hound have a fix for the dynamic res issue, will update soonish

[vale dew]

@frigid fjord i get this with your latest nexus build

i had deleted the folder first to make sure it was a fresh install

[frigid fjord]

2.1.1?

[frigid fjord]

when you go in game an open the reshade menu what's the error on load shaders?

[vale dew]

yes and i dont see any errors in the reshade menu

but using gtao is extremely broken

does generic depth addon need to be turned on

actually dlss doesnt work either

[frigid fjord]

no, no need for generic addon.

let me download and re-test one second

[frigid fjord]

did the Luma copy correctly, is it empty?

[vale dew]

yes and no

[frigid fjord]

this looks correct I am confused. can you send me the reshade log?

[vale dew]

unfortunately i gotta go to bed ill have to look into it more tmw

[lusty coral]

it's the SMAA problem, just get latest on github, it's fixed

[frigid fjord]

Will merge now with the GTAO fixes

[sleek imp]

Played a session and it was perfect and I settled with Ultra setting

[sleek imp]

here's some more

[frigid fjord]

If you have the gpu power for it, seems good.

[lusty coral]

it'd be good to have a way to disable AO 100% for comparisons

[lusty coral]

GTAO is darkening the fence was in the 2nd set

doesn't seem right

[frigid fjord]

I should add that

[frigid fjord]

Is GTAO the second image then yeha, thin object still have too big a radius it seems

I should probably just ditch their original AO values and look for ones that look better with GTAO. But I'll add the off toggle.

[lusty coral]

test only

[vale dew]

@frigid fjord new version still saying same thing that its missing shaders

i completely wiped reshade.ini, seems to be working now

[frigid fjord]

Weird that this stills happens.

Gotta check also the release script, it was failing to add one dependency in the package for some reason.

[vale dew]

i also figured out why my fmvs were breaking... think it was leaving fix movies to true in lyalls remake fix

NOPE addon broke as soon as i added reno and display commander back in

and fucked fmvs...

god damnit why cant i have it all work

[vale dew]

when i start game with a completely fresh INI, the mod works, if i dont, it breaks

like, its working PERFECT right now, with lyalls, if i use reno it breaks, if i use display commander it breaks.... thats fine i can get away with not using those... i can at least use RTSS to get reflex instead of DC, and your mod handles the HDR

i managed to get it to last between two loads too

no fucking clue whats up but im not gonna look gift horse in the mouth and just pray it stays this way

[frigid fjord]

I can try compiling a version without the swapchain upgrade from Luma, might work. Give me a second.

[sleek imp]

my OC 5080 handles the game pretty well at 4k

[sleek imp]

yeah I thought that as well
But I’m dumb and don’t what’s right either lol

I also found a spot where GTAO flickers at specific angle in the slums but other than that it’s been great

[vale dew]

Gonna be honest that I'm afraid to change a single thing

It's actually all working right now

I have alternatives to renodx (Luna) and Display Commander (rtss) and my 4k60 hdr fmvs are actually playing without corruption

Soooooo I think I'm gonna just lock in and not do anything else unless you add more stuff like gtao (which looks really nice btw!!)

to be clear for anyone else coming here in the future

i use this + lyalls fix + RTSS to add reflex (dont use renodx or display commander)
works with the 4k60 HDR FMV mod and 4k texture packs

[frigid fjord]

nice

didn't know RTSS could add reflex

[vale dew]

oh and the less obnoxious grunting in cutscenes mod, a must have honestly

[frigid fjord]

I want to know what makes it incompatible with Display Commander, renodx I suspect is that both mods upgrade swapchains and textures.

[vale dew]

in rtss settings change framerate limiter to nvidia reflex like this

[frigid fjord]

going to try and test display commander

[vale dew]

then set a cap above your reflex cap, like mine is 225 fps, so i set 228 in rtss

and then boom, 225 fps cap and super low latency

typically i prefer using DC for adding reflex because it also natively paces FG games better than RTSS (not relevant to this game of course)

mods im using (i probably dont need ff7hook anymore)

[frigid fjord]

ff7 hook still needed if you want DLAA to disable dynamic res

unless lyal's does that

[vale dew]

the DLSS overlay was reading that it was still DLAA so i guess my hardware is strong enough or its disabled

[frigid fjord]

if by any chance frametimes drop and dynamic res engages it will start using DLSS. your hardware can probably brute force DLAA, but probably better to disable it just in case.

[frigid fjord]

So display commander does work with Luma, but there are a bunch of errors at the start

ah but it doesn't work in publish mode, because it never recompiles the shaders that it couldn't find on boot.

[jolly crane]

Hello! Does anyone know if the dlss mod can be used with Special K (SK)? I really want to inject reflex and I primarily use SK for that but I can’t get it to work. If anyone knows any solutions/alternatives pls lmk

[wispy zinc]

you can try display commander to inject reflex https://discord.com/channels/1161035767917850784/1403983735031857162

[jolly crane]

Thx for the reply! I’ve tried it after scrolling through this thread a bit and wasn’t able to get it working. I just kept getting a crash

[frigid fjord]

Not working with display commander it does work with SK. But it sometimes fails. So you may need to try a few times.

[jolly crane]

The game “will” boot but I’m not getting the Reshade/Luma overlay nor the SK overlay. I’m just getting a stretched washed out in-game image and 2 Luma error pop up boxes that say something about “-dx11” and a “1:1 aspect ratio”.

[frigid fjord]

Are you using the latest nexus release?

[frigid fjord]

And do you have reshade as dxgi?

[jolly crane]

Sorry for the late reply! Yes, I just checked and I am using the latest nexus release of the dlss mod and dxgi.dll is reshade 6.6.2.1

Also quick question regarding FSR in this mod: is it possible to swap to FSR 4?

[jolly crane]

I’ve even tried doing a local SK install with the dll and still wouldn’t work

[frigid fjord]

someone did manage to get it to work with optiscaler replacing dlss. but can't say for sure that it will work

[jolly crane]

Yeah, I just seen the video linked in the nexus mod comments and I’ll give it a try later

[jolly crane]

Do you think specialK is not working because I’m using the Lyall widescreen mod with Luma ?

[frigid fjord]

No, it's just really unreliable

I want to fix the issue with display commander but I have to sit down and figure it out.

[jolly crane]

Understood, thanks a lot for your contribution for the project will be looking forward to it. Sorry if i was a bother at all

Sorry a few question so i can fully understand. Is the variables in the Engine.ini how you control the dlss upscaling range?

r.DynamicRes.OperationMode - if set to 1 it uses the variables below but if set to 0 supersamples the native resolution with DLAA (understood ✅)
r.DynamicRes.MinScreenPercentage - is this the minimum of the DLSS range? ❓
r.DynamicRes.MaxScreenPercentage - is this the maximum of the DLSS range? ❓

So for examples let’s say my native resolution is 1920x1200 and I wanted to upscale from 720p (60%) would it be:

60 min and 60 max
or
60 min and 100 max

[jolly crane]

Also regarding calibrating HDR properly using your mod. Are we supposed to keep the in-game HDR Luminance setting at max (10) and let the “scene peak white nits” setting in Luma handle it or are we supposed set HDR Luminance properly as well (7 in my case since my monitors max nits are 1100)?

[frigid fjord]

60,60 would be fixed 720p 60,100 would be dynamic resolution anywhere fron 720p to 1200p

[frigid fjord]

The in game setting shouldn't do anything so no worries. Just set the settings in luma

[jolly crane]

So if i want the game to upscale from 720p to 1200p i should set it to 60,100 right?

[frigid fjord]

60,60

60,100 would upscale from any resolution between 720 to 1200 to 1200 based on performance

[jolly crane]

Understood thx a lot for explaining everything! I appreciate it

[austere quiver]

In case anyone was wondering if they fixed the game for the xbox release

[twin turtle]

Incredible

[frigid fjord]

didn't they improve performance for the switch version, why not use that build?

man square is something

[twin turtle]

Waiting years to do the port and then it’s a basically unchanged pc version is wild truly

[austere quiver]

To be clear I'm talking about the pc demo from the Xbox store, not the actual Xbox one

Thats said there where times where the ms/Xbox pc builds where better/diffrent than the steam one, like nier automata or tomb raider 2013

[twin turtle]

Oh lmao

[jolly crane]

Following up from last time, I downloaded the most [recent build of Display Commander](#1403983735031857162 message) and I was able to get both of them to work at the same time instead of specialK.

However, an immediate error I ran into was that upon starting the game I was given the Luma error "please fix shaders" but the game still boots. Unfortunately, once it boots it's washed out and none of the Luma settings work (neither DLSS or HDR) but Display Commander works.

[frigid fjord]

yeah this is the issue with shader compilation I have been tryign to figure out. But have gotten sidetracked with other stuff. Gotta get back to it.

[jolly crane]

After that I was clicking around and stumbled upon something within Luma’s advanced settings called "Test SDR HDR Split View Mode" and set the value to 1 and everything started working. Unsure what exactly that did but just wanted to report my findings so whenever you find the time you would have some information to troubleshoot the issue or anybody who was has having the same problem has a quick workaround.

[frigid fjord]

forces a recompilation

yeah interesting workaround

you can do that while I figure out a fix

[austere quiver]

https://youtu.be/wQoWX_Q94vs

[frigid fjord]

was just about to comment on this

funny to see how the switch 2 dlss gets completely griefed by dithering

they should do a comparison when it comes out

[austere quiver]

I'm going to suggest it to them

[frigid fjord]

would be interesting if they try a like for like dlss implementation

I also wonder if they have the same issues with lights flickering

but I ain't getting no switch 2 to find out

[lusty coral]

if only we lived in an open world where you could just email the dev and say: hey we did this to remove dithering

but no

we had to make it all complicated

[austere quiver]

"Who are you punk and why are you telling me how to do my job?"

[lusty coral]

not even that.

email from outside the company? IGNORED

[frigid fjord]

I feel like the people who would even consider engaging with the outside are very few. Very few game devs engage with their peers let alone communities much.

[austere quiver]

Yup

It's not like there aren't ways to report that, but it's just mostly falling on deaf ears

[frigid fjord]

huge respect to Harada for doing tha despite the language barrier too.

[lusty coral]

to instruct them

you can tell them we turned the screen space noise into "white noise".

any temporal anti aliasing will not be able to reconstruct noise that is static in screen space

as it will end up baking its pattern in the final image

but if you add actually random noise

it's simply going to accumulate detail over time, forever.

[frigid fjord]

for the hair yes, they had dithering on materials that I just removed.

hair and transparent objects

[lusty coral]

yes, for transparency stuff.

[austere quiver]

I would rather if they reached you folks directly instead of playing the game of telephone

[lusty coral]

the dither anywhere else was useless and damages TAA

[frigid fjord]

they had dithering on everything, it's crazy

[lusty coral]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-hello-yes-this-is-dog-phone-on-phone-gif-24020795

[frigid fjord]

the one on shadows was the worst

[left folio]

https://youtu.be/LIUnW695j_E?si=jPUzYmU01oKvORXv

This seems to be native 1080p ?

Maybe this game uses DLAA