▫️Final Fantasy XVI

[ocean ether]

5 is what it looks like with 2.2 gamma

[unique swift]

not the point

[unique swift]

250 nits

[ocean ether]

ya

[unique swift]

at 2 it looks like 2.2 at 100

[ocean ether]

it looks 250 at some other gamma value

cause its messing with hues and saturation to the point it doesn't resemble the original image at all

[unique swift]

I literally just did the compassion vs linear scaling, it looks the same

[ocean ether]

it looks similar in a dark shot but in a shot with shadows, midtones, and highlights it looks entirely different

[unique swift]

HDR in game brightness 2 / pumbo paper white 32

Looks the same except now everything beside the ball itself is in SDR

[dapper cape]

vignette is messing with the image a lot especially with auto exposure, dark scenes get crushed with vignette on

[unique swift]

If you have any other test spot from the demo to check out I gladly will

[dapper cape]

I mean when brightness is set 2

[unique swift]

ok let's try it

Might not work in the demo? I see no diffrence

[dapper cape]

hmm not sure I noticed the issue at the hideout

which is not in the demo

[ocean ether]

but now contrast, hues, and saturation are different. This scene is much more similar than the other scene but the general idea still stands i think. the brown wood shifts to orange

if the difference was like this then I guess it wouldn't matter but the image i sent earlier shows the difference better

#1212434739500154921 message

[dapper cape]

the hideout is a good place to test btw, a lot of areas where you can test auto exposure, like the area where the smith is

[unique swift]

okay, it's always on in photo mode

[dapper cape]

oh lol

no option to turn it off ?

[unique swift]

HDR in game brightness 2 / pumbo paper white 32 vignette off

same results

I'm not seeing whatever y'all seeing

the in game slider just looks better

I'm really not trying to be an asshole

but linear scaling just makes 99% of the image look like SDR

[dapper cape]

it looks good at 2 with vignette off

in actual gameplay

[unique swift]

I mean yeah, if you increase the contrast you increase the saturation
But HDR is about contrast

[dapper cape]

I used 3 because I found 2 to be too dark even if it matches sdr

[ocean ether]

thats cause im being the asshole

i would say hdr is about having less limitations

[dapper cape]

and ofc I don't think that 2 or even 3 works if you are not in a pitch black room haha

[ocean ether]

if whatever you want to do isn't very different from sdr to hdr then it is what it is

[unique swift]

but if you don't wanna something different for SDR the you should also keep the highlights dim
Very low diffuse white with very bright highlights does not look natural
The light from the source should look bright if the source itself is bright

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1212434739500154921/1250123691078062080/Forza_Horizon_5_11.06.2024_17_58_00.jxr.png?ex=67225dea&is=67210c6a&hm=fe4508010bef467234825d1deb464632c6ed1a76bf29a1ca4ca70001a8baa5f5&

This is what I mean
It's supposed to be a sunny noon here

FH5 uses linear PW scaling, so if you want to match SDR reference almost nothing in the game looks bright, except from the sun and lamps and stuff

[ocean ether]

the issue i have is that doing doing pow on the image and then a linear scalar is like an inverse tonemap

and also sdr and hdr look the same at 250 nits anyway

so I'd rather preserve the hues, saturation, and contrast from that

since it looks the same in hdr and sdr we can at least say what the "intended look" is

[unique swift]

But it shouldn't
You're baseline is flawed

[ocean ether]

thats their default setting

[unique swift]

Their defaults are wrong

[ocean ether]

but how can we say its wrong when its the same between sdr and hdr

like we can obviously say hdr is wrong in sparking zero cause its a fucked up monstrosity

and we can in silent hill 2 cause it was literally just the unreal engine defaults and then they ended up changing it to roughly match sdr in the update

[unique swift]

#1212434739500154921 message
Paper white is not and SDR brightness equivalent, no color grading software scales the image like that
Video games are doing it wrong

I've even posted the comparison between resolve and the linear PW scaling from the same scene in Aliens, but I can't find it now

There it is
#1212434739500154921 message

[ocean ether]

what does dolby vision do when you change its brightness

[unique swift]

You don't change the brightness with dolby vision
DV is just HDR10 with dynamic metadata for tonemapping and maybe sometimes 12 bit information or something else

If you mean the DV IQ or whatever it's called, that just intentionally breaks PQ tracking

[ocean ether]

isnt that what the presets are in dolby vision

not iq but dark, bright, etc

whatever they're called

[spring pelican]

Dumb question - what do you mean by linear scaling in these examples

[ocean ether]

x * 2 as opposed to something like x^2

[unique swift]

Scaling the same as SDR brightness

[ocean ether]

well sdr brightness can also be scaled by gamma

[spring pelican]

How did you scale it for the examples?. You mean like you did sdr brightness 5 vs hdr brightness 3 4 5 etc?

[unique swift]

Dark is DV, Bright is DV with broken PQ tracking

[ocean ether]

which is i guess how it was done before tvs could get bright

ya but in what way do they break it is what I'm wondering

do they scale up the image linearly and then tonemap

[unique swift]

I imagine it looks something like this

[ocean ether]

oh also i forgot the most important thing

the brightness slider in ffxvi is doing pow in rgb

not on luminance

[spring pelican]

I'm just interested, how do you scale the HDR the same as SDR to test

[ocean ether]

thats why its not just making it more contrasty

its also deep frying

so its not hue/saturation preserving

dylan said

[unique swift]

The same way Musa does

[ocean ether]

that one formula he sent

for how to adjust gamma to preserve sdr 2.2 100 nit shadows

has to be done on luminance

[spring pelican]

I don't think I saved it

[unique swift]

Yeah like I've said, they are doing it wrong
It's just one method is less wrong than another

[ocean ether]

i think deep frying is the ultimate sin

also I find just lowering paper white to look very pleasing while maintaining good visibility

[unique swift]

It's not deep fired for the love of god
GoW is deep fried
FFXVI looks fine
Good even

[spring pelican]

oh, with pumboautohdr paperwhite

[unique swift]

FFXVI is less deep fried than Ragnarok

[spring pelican]

i wonder why you guys have differing opinions on this ha

[ocean ether]

#🌈tonemapping-and-colorspaces message

koklusz watches movies

i dont have the attention span to watch movies

[unique swift]

#🌈tonemapping-and-colorspaces message

[spring pelican]

what does attention span for movies have to do with this? You mean cause 100 nits is standard for SDR?

[ocean ether]

cause its the way brightness is scaled in davinci resolve (the film industry standard)

while games usually just do a flat multiplication

ffxvi does a flat multiplication by 260 and then the brightness slider does gamma before the multiplication

[spring pelican]

Hmm

It's impressive that you guys can tell what they're doing. I have no idea how to tell ha

I'm only half following all this stuff

[ocean ether]

if you line up the sdr image at 2.2 260 nits its the exact same as hdr at brightness 5

both in game and on ui elements

so to do the scaling based on that formula you would have to do a gamma multiplier of 1.2143 on luminance

while ui elements are unclamped in hdr so I mean sdr ui elements like the starting logos

[spring pelican]

What's the formula again? Is it the same one you used for SH2 to get the 37 pumbo paperwhite

Or the in game peak

[ocean ether]

thats a different one

[spring pelican]

Oh darn

[ocean ether]

its literally just multiplying peak by the opposite of what you scaled the entire image down by

like if you have an image with 250 paper white and 500 peak

scaling down paper white linearly to 200 nits will be 250 * (4/5)

that scales the peak down to 500 * (4/5) since its a linear scalar

so you just needs to multiply peak by 5/4

so the end result is 500 * (4/5) * (5/4) so its back at 500

bt2446 is the gamma stuff

#🌈tonemapping-and-colorspaces message

another thing is i dont like inverse tonemapping

which is what movies do

like I shared some pics form dark knight

and i thought it looked awful

I can't stand this stuff

like there is more detail but then there's also an inverse tonemap on top of that

[spring pelican]

This is what you did for FF16? I'm not really following but I'll just try to stare at it some more.

[ocean ether]

ya

cause ffxvi doesnt have a linear scalar

[spring pelican]

So you have go adjust peak as well when you're trying to scale down paperwhite?

[ocean ether]

ya like in renodrt its calculated like peak = peak / paperwhite

cause you multiply the paper white in at the end

[spring pelican]

In games, is adjusting the peak supposed to change shadows or midtones? Like normally?

[ocean ether]

games would just handle that in their code automatically but in a reshade shader you're running everything afterwards

[ocean ether]

nah

[spring pelican]

Just in SH2?

[ocean ether]

ya sh2 is fucked

[spring pelican]

But not in FF16?

[ocean ether]

ff16 changing peak works fine

[spring pelican]

So by doing this, you're lowering paperwhite, and also lowering peak, so that you can compare different hdr brightnesses to sdr and check for saturation differences?

[ocean ether]

when im doing that its just to normalize my peak back to where it was before

when doing comparisons my peak can be whatever if it works properly

[spring pelican]

Or are you checking for major brightness difference which means the game isn't doing brightness as a paperwhite slider

[ocean ether]

this stuff is just for if you want to scale brightness linearly and setting it up to get your peak matching whatever your monitor can do

[spring pelican]

I guess I'm getting stuck at the last part when you're saying you're putting the brightness back to 500

[ocean ether]

thats not part of comparing sdr to hdr

[spring pelican]

Oh my bad

[ocean ether]

thats just part of adjusting the peak back up to match your display when a game doesn't offer a linear paper white slider

cause then you have to do it in reshade

after the actual game code

so the in game tonemapper thinks you still have paper white set to whatever the game hardcoded

and that paper white value is used in calculating the peak

[spring pelican]

I think i understand a bit better thx

So is hdr brightness in FF16 affecting peak? It's making it lower?

[ocean ether]

they seem to clamp its range to not affect values over 1

normally increasing gamma would lower values below 1 and increase values above 1

cause youre raising to a power

2^2 = 4 - increase
but 0.5^2 = 0.25 - decrease

[spring pelican]

Ok so then you have to use pumbos to lower paperwhite. Then that lowers peak in game

[ocean ether]

ya

[spring pelican]

Isn't that similar to the formula for SH2 though? You scaled down paperwhite and then raised peak

[ocean ether]

ya

both silent hill 2 and ffxvi dont have paper white

ffxvi just has gamma

[spring pelican]

Am i misunderstanding

[ocean ether]

were you referring to the gamma multiplier stuff there

[spring pelican]

Yea. Are we talking about 2 different things lol

Sorry my brain is fried from work

[ocean ether]

well I went from talking to one to talking about the other

[spring pelican]

I did like 9 hours of excel today

[ocean ether]

and weed

[spring pelican]

What was the gamma thing. I think I'm half awake

I'll leave you alone if I still don't get it ha

[ocean ether]

that's if you hypothetically wanted to take a 100 nit paper white image and scale up the entire image by a factor then what would you change gamma by to keep shadows in the same brightness range

[spring pelican]

That conceptually makes sense

Thx

So tldr; FF16 @ 5 brightness - fuck it?

[ocean ether]

its very bright

i dont play the game but if i was to play it

since the game doesn't have a peak slider and reads from windows

I would launch the game through a cmd or bat

that would first run doge's setmaxtml

with a higher peak than my display actually does using that formula

and then run the game

and in game i would scale brightness down with reshade

[spring pelican]

Like pumbo paperwhite scaler?

[ocean ether]

ya

[spring pelican]

Aight

So before i was asking why Ko didn't think it was deep fried. I know he likes darker shadows. By deep fries i picture like paperwhite too high and saturation high

[ocean ether]

he essentially wants something like that bt2446 formula but the game adjusts gamma by channel and not by luminance

[spring pelican]

I never tend to use bt2446a

[ocean ether]

idk if the bt2446 is the same one as the one in liliums shader

[spring pelican]

How did you realize the game adjusts it by channel, and not luminance (i assume bt2446a is by luminance)

oh i thought they were the same

[ocean ether]

cause bt2446 is the name of the technical paper

[spring pelican]

although his has the "a"

[ocean ether]

so it has multiple things in it

[spring pelican]

yea

[ocean ether]

ya the a is prob the section of the paper or something idk

[ocean ether]

its oversaturating

the cie diagram

and just by looking

[spring pelican]

oh ok so that results in saturation

[ocean ether]

in FFXVI since my peak is 1080, I would:

• run doge's setmaxtml with 1080 * (260/203) = 1383.25123153
• use pumbo autohdr to scale down paperwhite. 80 is neutral in his so I would have to do 80 * 203/250 = 62.4615384615

if you wanted to do that bt2446 luminance gamma stuff you would need to

• scale down paper white to 80 nits
• adjust gamma by luminance based on the factor in the formula
• scale paper white back up

[spring pelican]

could you do the gamma adjustmentment in pumbo's too

[ocean ether]

pumbo doesnt have a gamma slider

just the one thing for the srgb -> 2.2 conversion

[spring pelican]

oh i thought it had a gamma adjustment

[ocean ether]

i think the map sdr into hdr shader has the gamma adjust in it

[spring pelican]

yea that one does

[ocean ether]

but that gamma adjust is by channel

[spring pelican]

oh ok

then how do ya do it

[ocean ether]

you'd have to find a shader or make one that has a by luminance gamma adjustment

so a hypothetical shader for that would have

• input paper white
• gamma adjust
• output paper white

but it would also apply to ui

[spring pelican]

so for me: 600 * (250/138) = 1087

[ocean ether]

ya

[spring pelican]

pumbo's at 44.16

[ocean ether]

ya

[spring pelican]

so in theory that would look similar to 140 nits SDR?

[ocean ether]

ya

[spring pelican]

Did you mean "if you don't want something different from SDR"?

So he's saying that if you lower paperwhite too much then it looks weird cause everything is dim but highlights are bright

[ocean ether]

koklusz wants brighter highlights and darker shadows at the same time while I want same contrast, saturation, hues, etc as sdr just with extra room for highlights

[spring pelican]

so yea, you'd need some sorta other adjustment then to keep shadows similar and not have everything else dragged down with it

right?

like you'd want a lower paperwhite but not have everything so dim that bright highlights look weird compared to the overall brightness

[ocean ether]

ultimately weird is subjective in this case

[spring pelican]

his forza example kinda makes sense

I guess that's a risk if you lower paperwhite too much

[ocean ether]

i'm saying I like this one

[spring pelican]

yea

[ocean ether]

but in that cause I was slightly off with the math cause I did 250 instead of 260

[spring pelican]

but if I scale down to 140 then it might look like the forza example above

[ocean ether]

koklusz is saying this way is better to scale brightness

[ocean ether]

you just gotta see what you like

[spring pelican]

Here you're just testing different HDR brightness in game?

[ocean ether]

ya this is the in game setting which is just gamma

[spring pelican]

So he's saying he likes this method for hdr brightness

rather than paperwhite

[ocean ether]

well paper white is just what developers call the brightness of rgb(1,1,1)

any adjustment to brightness/contrast is scaling paper white in a sense

i just prefer a linear scalar

that keeps the image "intact" I guess

[spring pelican]

gotchya

[ocean ether]

hue/saturation/contrast wise

[spring pelican]

Hm, I guess I don't mind a bit more saturation with HDR

but not to the point where it's unnatural

[ocean ether]

ya but my mentality is that even if you like doing that in one scene, you never know when it could end up looking worse

unless you constantly flip back and forth

[spring pelican]

true

okay last question for now - FF16 increases saturation as you lower the HDr brightness, right?

[ocean ether]

ya

[spring pelican]

aight

[ocean ether]

and also I don't like the shadows in when you use the in game slider

they become dark in a way that makes separation of detail harder to see

vs linear scalar

cause dark becomes exponentially darker when you adjust gamma

[spring pelican]

right

yea i guess i'll just have to see what I like better. I might buy it after i finish SH2

[spring pelican]

Was this example with 100 nits paperwhite where you were saying that it was making the game way too dim?

[unique swift]

Yes

[spring pelican]

Yea 100 nits paperwhite would definitely be too dim

that's how i felt when i tried to use dxvk for far cry 1

[unique swift]

But this is the problem specific to FH5 and other games that scale brightness linearly, for example GoW:R still looks nice and bright (maybe even too much), even if you match it with SDR in midtones

[spring pelican]

is this because with linear scaling games, it just pushes too much brightness down?

[unique swift]

Yes

[spring pelican]

So would games that have a functioning paperwhite slider (i.e. AW2) be linear scaling games?

[unique swift]

Yes, but some games boost contrast in HDR to the smaller or the larger degree, so you can match SDR in midtones but the the light bounce will still look nice and bright

[spring pelican]

gotchya

[unique swift]

Thinking about it, AW2 might be targeting g2.4 in HDR

Maybe will check it out morrow

[ocean ether]

alan wake 2 has separate options for sgrb, 2.2, and 2.4 though

targeting 2.4 would be in comparison to sdr if we aren't explicitly given the transfer function used

alan wake 2 has no gamma in hdr

its linear up until the lut which is then sampled in pq with a linear output

and then at the very end the entire image is left in linear for scrgb

encoded in pq for hdr10

or put into gamma space based on the corresponding gamma function selected in the menu

[unique swift]

I'm saying this because pw at 140 nits matches SDR in shadows
Just like tlou and horizon
Soooo

[ocean ether]

probably like hitman with a lower minimum nits parameter

remoedy is doing hdr better than others

well assuming they're using a tonemapper with a minimum nits parameter

hitman presumably uses aces which has min nits cause I'm pretty sure I saw dorito orange highlights

[spring pelican]

pw at 140 nits matches sdr at 2.4 in shadows?

[unique swift]

2.2

[spring pelican]

then why are you thinking the hdr is 2.4. probably missed something

[unique swift]

gamma 2.4 is darker than 2.2 right

so at the higher brightness you can hit the same shadow brightness with 2.4 than 2.2

[ocean ether]

2.4 would be darker than 2.2 if you used the same input

as in if you mismatched 2.2 onto 2.4

[unique swift]

so 140 nits 2.4 has the same shadow brightness as 100 nits 2.2

[ocean ether]

in the case of alan wake 2 they tell you the actual transfer function that they use and what you should use on your tv

[unique swift]

correct

or if you're converting it to the PQ

[ocean ether]

my sources which I cannot name tell me that the pq and gamma conversions are done at the end solely for display transfer

so they aren't incorrectly sampling effects in different color spaces depending on your output

[unique swift]

we are talking AW2 or general?

cos I'm talking general

[ocean ether]

in aw2 specifically thats how they do it

but in general devs fuck everything up

[spring pelican]

oh gotchya

[spring pelican]

@ocean etherwere these settings with the default in game brightness at 5?

[ocean ether]

ya

[spring pelican]

but i think it was supposed to be 260 paperwhite, right?

it's so close though probably doesn't matter

[ocean ether]

ya youre right it was 260

ill edit that

[spring pelican]

thx!

easy enough to adjust the formula

So you chose 203 paperwhite for FF16, not 140 like you did for SH2?

[ocean ether]

i only play sh2 at night in the dark

also ff16 preserves a lot of highlight detail in a way that makes it so that an equal paper white to other games isn't necessarily as bright on average

uncharted is sort of the same

playing uncharted 4 at 300 paper white doesn't actually look that bright

[spring pelican]

Is HFW like that too?

default paperwhite was like 236

[ocean ether]

nah that game is bright as shit

[spring pelican]

haha

[ocean ether]

no idea why its 236

[spring pelican]

who knows

[spring pelican]

given this, going to 140 might be too dim, yea

[ocean ether]

ya

[spring pelican]

how many games do the thing where it increases saturation as you increase peak

[ocean ether]

what is this in reference to

i think in general if you tonemap by channel you'll lose a little bit of saturation as you lower peak

[spring pelican]

in general

i guess it just depends on the game tonemapper

[ocean ether]

completely preserving saturation with a lower peak might look unnatural

but if its tonemapping by channel without respect to luminance itll desaturate more, but doing by channel tonemapping without respect to luminance is more of an sdr thing

dragon age veilguard preserves saturation and hues a lot more than other games and I really dislike the way it looks

[spring pelican]

gotchya thx

[ocean ether]

veilguard preserves hues and saturation a lot more than other games and I think it looks kinda bad

[spring pelican]

Sorry for mixing channels, but does this have anything to do with why SH2 gets more saturated in HDR vs. SDR

like with the orange lights

[ocean ether]

ya

but also i think unreal's sdr is fake aces so that might also contribute to the difference in look

[spring pelican]

yea could be

[rotund obsidian]

@dark tendon just wanted to say thank you for optiscaler contributions! I noticed your name on Github and thought I seen you in here lol.

Its the only thing that fixed this busted DLSS implementation without having to toggle FSR and DLSS settings to activate.

[spring pelican]

what was ths issue it fixed? just curious

[rotund obsidian]

Uhhh.

Let me copy and paste some notes I've gathered from my tests.

Optiscaler works as intended, no need to do anything janky like DLSSTweak where I have to toggle FSR and DLSS to enable the scaling I want. @spring pelican

[spring pelican]

do you guys force 16x AF in this game

[ocean ether]

i try to avoid forcing anything through control panel

if pcgw says you need to force it I do

[unique swift]

I did

[dapper cape]

me too

[spring pelican]

Was AF broken in this game

[unique swift]

it's just capped at 4x IIRC with no in game option to change it

[spring pelican]

Looks like 8 as per sk. That's what it said is the default of the game

But with sk you can either force anything already using anisotropic to a higher value, or force everything to use anisotropic when if it wasn't before

[unique swift]

I just used the driver override tbh
worked fine

[spring pelican]

The driver override forces it ya. Sk just has that extra option

Of only forcing things that already use it to be a higher multiplier

[spring pelican]

even with ffxvi fix and SK, the cutscnes just seem like they're running under 60fps

well not all the time

just some scenes

also it seems to overshoot the max luminance from system

by around like 70 nits at times

[frail abyss]

u should limit it to a cinimatic 24fps anyway

[dapper cape]

the screen refresh rate should be set to 60 or 120hz to fix the stuttering

[spring pelican]

240hz won't work?

[dapper cape]

it should

I think

but

does that activate DSC?

I mean 1440p 240hz

[spring pelican]

No

[dapper cape]

yea only 4K 240hz requires DSC

[spring pelican]

it requires DSC with displayport actually. but I'm on hdmi 2.1

[mint hawk]

it does not actually

you can still get 8 bit 444

[spring pelican]

correct

But no DLDSR (even though I rarely use that)

[mint hawk]

it should let you use dldsr

weird

[spring pelican]

not with DSC

DSC disables DLDSR

or at least that's what literally every single person who uses it has told me lol

[mint hawk]

what am I doing

I thought I was looking at 120hz

[spring pelican]

hmm?

[mint hawk]

I thought you were replying to 4k 120hz

[spring pelican]

well yea, it should apply for that too

since it needs DSC with displayport right?

I've heard people say that engaging DSC disabled DSR/DLDSR for them?

at least with 10 bit

[mint hawk]

4k 120hz 8 bit 444 is just about dp 1.4's limit

and dsc disables dsr yes

for every display even

[spring pelican]

ok yea

that's what I thought

[mint hawk]

so if you run dual monitors you cannot use dsr on the 2nd monitor

mpos still work on the non-dsc display at least

[spring pelican]

nice

yea idk i've never used DSC

i'm just on regular ole' HDMI 2.1

1440p240hz

[mint hawk]

I have no choice

you know how it is

[dapper cape]

there is always a choice

[mint hawk]

only one 2.1 port

[mint hawk]

then I'd give up on using the tv

its not a huge deal though

disabling dsc runs the monitor at 144hz max by default

drop it down to 120 and its still pretty good

not like you're going to target 240 anyway when using dsr

[spring pelican]

i feelz ya

yea

that's what I'd do

[mint hawk]

you see brap I just deal with the gamma raise

[spring pelican]

did we have the same gamma raise?

[mint hawk]

at 60 it was similar to the tv at 60

probably

[spring pelican]

did your monitor have the same problem?

you can easily test it

[mint hawk]

of course

[spring pelican]

so you see a static brightness lift in shadows when you engage VRR?

[mint hawk]

ye

I checked in one game

60fps on the monitor vs 60fps on the tv

to my eyes the gamma raise looked the same

[spring pelican]

example i took a while ago

[mint hawk]

which was weird to me

I thought it'd be worse given its higher refresh rate

[spring pelican]

nope

refresh rate doesn't matter

it's just static

looks like the above

shadows are lifted as fuck

completely off

[mint hawk]

the tv is 120hz max and the monitor was at 240hz

the refresh rate vrr-ed down to 60 on both

that's what I mean

[spring pelican]

oh ok

which TV?

[mint hawk]

lg c1

[spring pelican]

i asked other people with a C1 and they all said they didn't have that issue

lol

but i have it on my ultragear

[mint hawk]

its an issue for sure

it looked pretty much identical

[spring pelican]

yea I turned VRR off. It just raises shadows by an absurdly high amount

[mint hawk]

which again like I said is weird to me

[spring pelican]

yea, it is weird

[mint hawk]

because the "curve" on the tv should be different

it should be notably more raised on the monitor

but it looked the same

[spring pelican]

🤷

but yea that's why I don't use VRR

[mint hawk]

yeah I basically just deal with it

unless if its some cinematic dark horror game

then I'll use the fine tune dark areas thing

[spring pelican]

other people with a C1 said they didn't have that problem though.....but that could be because they calibrated it out?

[mint hawk]

how

[spring pelican]

i'm not sure

i wouldn't think VRR would be active during a calibration...

idk how that works

[mint hawk]

it does engage on the madtpg window actually

but I always just disabled g sync just in case

[spring pelican]

is it worth doing the side quests in this game

or are they boring

[unique swift]

They are boring, but some quest chains have some interesting story attached

It really depends whenever or not you want the best gear

You should definitely do the ones with the plus icon (they give perma upgrades) , or the treasure box icon

Hunts are also worth doing

[mellow void]

Yeah it comes down to how much you want world building stuff cause all the quests are very much just that.

For me I liked the side quests a ton but it's also odd to have that much for an action game lol.

But the story works much better with the side quests than without imo.

[dapper cape]

You wont really understand the lore/world/main side characters without doing them, and some of the quests are genuinely interesting.

[spring pelican]

is there a way to know which ones are worth doing?

i'm in the beginnign area and i already have 2. One is from a bartender and one is from some other random person

and they seem dull as shit

I guess what Ko said above? Plus signs and treasure icons?

[mellow void]

Those are basically tutorials on how quests work and take zero time.

[spring pelican]

ok good

cause I hate boring sidequests

[mellow void]

Those two are the most basic cause they're basically tutorials, some of the craziest earlier ones take place near Sanbreque.

[spring pelican]

also parrying is hard as shit in this game

you have to time it so the end of your sword hits the enemy

[mellow void]

yup

[spring pelican]

not even worth it

easier to dodge

[mellow void]

it is but some attacks are easier to time the parry

I use the charge attack to do it

As an FYI tho if you do wanna skip quests, the important quests with special rewards are marked with an icon

[spring pelican]

gotchya thx

I just know it's like a 60 hour game and I don't have 200 extra hours for sidequests lol

Also I'm glad like 90% of cutscenes are real-time, because the pre-rendered ones stutter like shit

[mellow void]

yeah fair

I play games very slowly and for me the base game plus DLC was 120hours I think base game was maybe 80-90 for me.

That was doing every side quest and every hunt.\

None of the challenge stuff

[spring pelican]

Yea that's long as shit. Last game that took me that long was witcher 3 with all dlc and most side quest

[mellow void]

Yeah but like i said i'm slow, every game is like 20 hours longer for me lmao

[frail abyss]

Ill be honest I just play the game on story mode

it takes too long to kill some enemies I feel like

dont enjoy the combat that much

I liked the old schoold final fantasy turn based combat stuff personally at least some tactics had to be used there, this one is a total button mashing fest, the devs even gave u some items that make the combat less tedius if equipped by combining combos automatically and giving automatic commands to the dog lol

[dapper cape]

haha yea the first two side quests are really weird

[dapper cape]

base game with every side quests took me ~60 hours to beat or something

[mellow void]

For me I just tried to optimize efficiency.

[dapper cape]

but i was playing on normal difficulty

which was super easy lol

[mellow void]

yeah, optimizing damage was the main enjoyment for me. But it feels designed like an MMO.

Getting a rotation right and timing it by creating vulnerabilities.

In the end you do the most damage by popping off your rotation all at the same time. Having ||Odin + Bahamut|| it was pretty fun but yeah still too easy.

[spring pelican]

i only saw 2 difficulties?

story focused and action focused

[mellow void]

yeah only normal is available at default

[spring pelican]

oh ok

[mellow void]

the game would be harder if it was a little less generous with checkpoints. I died at least once to plenty of the Eikon/Primed battles.

[dapper cape]

ah right the hard mode is new game+ only

[mellow void]

But the check points made it not that bad.

[unique swift]

I did just about everything I could in the game

So I guess it did something right, lol

[mellow void]

lol

[unique swift]

@spring pelican there are mods to reduce enemies HP, that should make going through the game much quicker

[mellow void]

IMO it's better to focus on optimizing 😛

[spring pelican]

Nah it's fine. I don't wanna make it even easier or it'll be boring

[unique swift]

BTW, which HDR settings you ended up using?

[spring pelican]

me?

just brightness 3

[unique swift]

https://tenor.com/view/you-have-chosen-wisely-choose-choice-knight-gif-16214221

[spring pelican]

The max luminance in this game is weird though. It bounces around way over the system level calibration peak set. Might be film grain or motion blur causing it though. It happens more in motion. My peak is 603 but I see it hitting 800 and even 1k sometimes. But most of the time it's under 600

[frail abyss]

I noticed it loses the correct calibration sometimes when u start the game. A second restart of the game should set things right

I noticed this coz I check every game start with Lilium's hdr analysis

[spring pelican]

oh really?

[spring pelican]

do you load your save file and test? Or is there an easy way to test from the menu?

[frail abyss]

u can see it in the menu already

[spring pelican]

main menu hits peak?

[frail abyss]

my peak is 800 and it goes well beyond that

yea

[spring pelican]

does it get thrown off on alt tabs?

I'm curious specifically what breaks it

[frail abyss]

no I think its when u start, idk what causes it

[spring pelican]

gotchya

thx for the heads up

[frail abyss]

If I remember correctly the restart fixes it. So I think that would explain why you experience that weirdness with the peak sometimes

In gameplay it doesnt get thrown off

(not certain but think so)

[spring pelican]

wait, what?

you're only talking about cutscenes?

[frail abyss]

no I mean

inside the game

so when its good in the menu it will be fine all through that game session

if your menu peak is off it will be off the whole time

[spring pelican]

ok

i was gonna say...

haha

cause i've seen it go higher in gameplay

[frail abyss]

maybe menu doesnt hit peak peak

but it hits higher than 1000 nits

and that is enough to tell me that the calibraiton is off since my peak is 800 in windows

see if its like this its alright

u can see its just about under my peak, it perfect

but If I see it go over to 1000 nits a restart should fix it, at least in my case. Also there were a few patches so they might have fixed this by now.

since I havent played in weeks im not sure if what you are experiencing is the same issue or smth else

[ocean ether]

it tonemaps the game properly but doesnt tonemap the menu

same as god of war

well from the tiny bit i played, the scene itself didnt seem to go over user set peak

[frail abyss]

no not everytime

as I said sometimes when u start it the peak doesnt settle to your windows calibrated settings

and then it will be shit for the whole game session- a simple game restart puts things back into order

[ocean ether]

ah ok

that sounds like the windows bs

like sometimes skiv or hdr+wcg viewer

will report the wrong peak

cause its not reading the windows calibration

so I ended up just changing my peak in the EDID

so when it fail to read icc then its still right anyway

[spring pelican]

if it's the same issue i have (need to test) then it was still there as of last night

[spring pelican]

@frail abyssnah so it seems to be a different issue

i tried restarting

still goes above peak

it seems to have crazy variations

like from 500 to 900 at times

i think it might be film grian or some blur effect i'm not sure

it's like I can tell it's respecting my peak for the most part, but some pixels are overshooting and idk why

might be particle highlights

[spring pelican]

I can't take the in between parts of main missions

they're so boring

it's like "okay talk to person x. Talk to person y. Talk to person Z. Now go grab item A from person A. etc etc for fucking 2 hours. Okay NOW we can get back to the main story

ugh

[gloomy sky]

It's every time too

Very poorly paced game

[spring pelican]

yea

it's really fucking boring

and makes it feel like a cheap game

[wispy patrol]

it's exactly like ff14

[spring pelican]

but the main missions are fun

i didn't play FF14. This is the first FF game i've played since FFX ha

[mint hawk]

ye

[next forge]

@white girder drop your reshade here

[spring pelican]

I wanna try out this new version tn to see what you added

@white girderdo you mind explaining what each one is?

[spring pelican]

Thanks!

what exactly is the MPCD though?

not sure I know but just curious

and are the (old) matrices the ones we tried last night that was like a blue explosion? prior to you fixing it?

[next forge]

BUFFER_COLOR_SPACE is passed by reshade as a global

[spring pelican]

thx

[wispy patrol]

wait did you guys figure out that ffxvi isnt supposed to be played in western color space?

i'm kinda out of the loop

what is this about?

[next forge]

brap doesn't understand how before/after works though, but the yellower one is d65

[wispy patrol]

hmm

the desert i'd expect to be yellow because, well, desert, but yeah the others

[next forge]

there's no definitive answer, though

[ocean ether]

i think i remember resident evil 2 having slightly different color temp in sdr vs hdr

[wispy patrol]

voosh's shader transforms the white temperature i assume?

[next forge]

yeah, same color spaces i have in unreal and ffx mods

part of renodx lib now

lilium math

[ocean ether]

nvm its the same

[spring pelican]

Sometimes when i drop screenshots into discord it like flips them

[ocean ether]

paste them one by one

[spring pelican]

alright

i'll just do one by one next time

[mystic atlas]

are these with the old or new matrices?

[next forge]

i think these are the D93 that i labelled JPN Modern, not the crt ones

there wasn't much difference in that one , IIRC

[mystic atlas]

what I meant is that the old matrix are with the von Kries method and the Bradform transform which looks too blue from my findings
vK20 method and CAT02 transform perform more expected

I made the other matrices too

[next forge]

old

color = mul(float3x3(0.941922724f, -0.0795196890f, -0.0160709824f,
                         0.00374091602f, 1.01361334f, -0.00624059885f,
                         0.00760519271f, 0.0278747007f, 1.30704438f),

new

// chromatic adaptation method: vK20
// chromatic adaptation transform: CAT02
static const float3x3 BT709_D93_TO_BT709_D65_MAT = float3x3(
    0.968665063f, -0.0445920750f, -0.00335013796f,
    0.00231231073f, 1.00339293f, 0.0000867190974f,
    0.00326244067f, 0.0161521788f, 1.11353743f);

[dark tendon]

Now i'm starting to wonder if that's the case for FFXIV as well.

[mystic atlas]

highly likely

[wispy patrol]

yeah like... have we been playing everything wrong

[next forge]

you've been playing on "urine lcd"

(that's what the japanese call d65)

[mystic atlas]

if the content is made for a different illuminant it makes sense that it looks wrong

[ocean ether]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Design/comments/12gfxns/choosing_the_d65_as_the_white_point_in_displays/?rdt=48470

[wispy patrol]

surely they play on lcds too though? do they set them all to d93?

[dark tendon]

yes, they do

[next forge]

yes https://jisakuhibi.jp/review/playstation-5-hdr-color-correct-and-no-issue (use google translate)

[wispy patrol]

well then a reshade shader that converts to d93 seems like a necessity for any jp game

[next forge]

but if you don't have HDR it'll clip bounds i think

[mystic atlas]

"natural" white point differs per region and season

[mystic atlas]

yes

a lot

[mint hawk]

wat

[next forge]

i remember d60 in cp2077 having some clipping as well

[wispy patrol]

[next forge]

seems like tvs and pc monitors in japan are by default in D93 for SDR

[mint hawk]

so filmmaker mode in japan targets d93?

[next forge]

no cinema mode is d65

[mystic atlas]

in SDR maybe

[next forge]

hdr is known to be d65 and japanese people find it weird

[mint hawk]

damn

[mystic atlas]

the problem is SDR

[wispy patrol]

god why does everything have to be a clusterfuck

[next forge]

now ask me about the gamma on pc monitors in japan

[mint hawk]

what setting is d93 on lg anyway? neutral?

[ocean ether]

what about gamma on pc monitors in japan

[mystic atlas]

look at that anime HDR short film Netflix produced
it's rather blue

[mint hawk]

2.0?

[next forge]

default srgb or P3. not common to have 2.2 options

[mystic atlas]

2.2 probably

LG OLED is also native 2.2

[next forge]

seems like microsoft finally got their way in japan

[mystic atlas]

everything is native 2.2

[mint hawk]

what is P3 gamma?

[next forge]

color space, dci p3

so it can saturate it

[mint hawk]

oh

[mystic atlas]

for DCI-P3 specifically it's 2.6

now find content for that
(it does not exist)

[next forge]

all you get is srgb or vivid mode

[mint hawk]

so the default is srgb + srgb piecewise or dci-p3 + 2.6?

[wispy patrol]

don't forget monitors sometimes mislabel 2.2 as srgb

[next forge]

TVs in japan are 2.2 or 2.4, seems like

[mystic atlas]

ARIB measured their mastering CRTs as 2.4

[next forge]

pc seems to operate differently than TVs, not like here

[mystic atlas]

blue 50 is 10k

iirc

[mint hawk]

thanks

[next forge]

might just be this monitor https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/asus/rog-swift-360hz-pg27aqn

i think some monitors put "gamma" next to brightness and contrast

yeah, might just be the monitor. article made it sound like srgb instead of 2.2, but the display has... both options

so i'd assume D93 2.2 in japan

[dark tendon]

wait i screwed up the screenshots

[next forge]

uh, yeah you did 😅

[dark tendon]

D93 vs D65

the clouds are white instead of yellow-ish

[mystic atlas]

ding ding

[next forge]

i came to conclusion that if by setting d93 white looks neutral, then it's probably d93

[wispy patrol]

[mystic atlas]

TIME TO REPLAY EVERYTHING

[dark tendon]

i can not believe

[mint hawk]

I assume the shader assumes that the display is set to D65?

[mystic atlas]

yes

[dark tendon]

i played this game wrong

for so long LMAO

[mystic atlas]

theoretically you can set the colour temp on LG OLED TVs too

[spring pelican]

i'm liking 16 better in d93 i think

[mint hawk]

too lazy

[next forge]

yeah, and not worry about clipping

[mint hawk]

damn it

[mystic atlas]

(for SDR)

[mint hawk]

ah ok

[mystic atlas]

a pure blue is barely outside of DCI-P3

[mint hawk]

yea

[mellow void]

The creator of the game reccomended HDR so I doubt this is the case, that issue mostly related to SDR in japan

[mystic atlas]

uhh I don't think you know what I meant 😄
when mapping D93 to D65 the gamut is shifted to the upper left when looking at CIE 1931

[wispy patrol]

yeah in ffxvi's case i remember it was supposedly hdr-first, but still... the screenshots

and they must've viewed sdr on d93 surely

[next forge]

i'm sure they did dailies in d93

[spring pelican]

you like d93 better too?

[wispy patrol]

plus, well, who says they didnt change the temperature in hdr to d93 too?

[spring pelican]

for that game

[mystic atlas]

this is still with von Kries method and Bradform transform:
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/pym7wbcdsm

[wispy patrol]

i mean, it looks more correct, doesnt it?

[spring pelican]

to me it does

[mellow void]

I think the game looks as intended, remember the hideaway takes place in blight it's supposed to look dreary

[wispy patrol]

it's more about clouds being white

#1275338781658185728 message

[next forge]

either everyone who worked on the game converted their displays to d65 and told all their japanese friends to change their TVs to d65, or they did it on d93, or it's a complete mess of d93/d65

[mystic atlas]

probably the last

[mellow void]

Eh, clouds take from the sun temperature color, I don't think clouds would be white all the time.

Sun Light is rarely white

[next forge]

idk. i see yellow snow #1275338781658185728 message

[mellow void]

And that's besides color grading stuff

[mystic atlas]

someone pissed all over that mountain

[mint hawk]

I just realized

if you adjust the color temp tv side

it will push more luminance

[next forge]

urine lcd

[mint hawk]

so it'll stretch to 1000-ish nits I guess?

[wispy patrol]

i refuse to toggle shit back and forth in the settings depending on what i play so thats a no go

[mellow void]

Most stuff is likely semi exaggerated interpretations of this

[wispy patrol]

but a reshade postprocess, sure

[mystic atlas]

this is not about "nature"

[wispy patrol]

but you guys are saying doing it on the screen's side would be better?

[next forge]

for SDR yes

[mellow void]

I'm just saying what it's based on, I wouldn't assume white is the expectation.

[mystic atlas]

we know that LG WOLEDs are natively 9300k

other screens idk

[mystic atlas]

please read into chromatic adaptation

[mint hawk]

wait that'd just be the neutral setting then no?

[wispy patrol]

thankfully i don't play sdr

[next forge]

but i don't know if you can do HDR on SDR for well "spaced" D93 on D65

[mystic atlas]

if warm50 is D65 (6500k) and blue50 is 10000k
I would assume blue43 to be 9300k if it is a linear scale

[next forge]

without changing the swapchain

[mellow void]

I'm aware of this but it doesn't change my opinion.

[mystic atlas]

not quite sure I understand

[mystic atlas]

wait I can't math

[next forge]

if i try to do post process on 8bit SDR to simulate D93, it would clip, no?

[mystic atlas]

gamut mapping 🙂

[next forge]

well, it'll be compressed or clip

[mystic atlas]

you can do XYZ scaling which does not clip

[next forge]

the retro scene reduce brightness to like 70%? but i don't understand that math

wouldn't D93 still be a bit out of gamut for D65?

[mystic atlas]

XYZ scaling doesn't clip

but it's incorrect

[next forge]

so what be the difference between doing all that in an 8bit reshade vs doing it on your monitor/display?

[mystic atlas]

if it is a linear scale it should be blue30

[mystic atlas]

display probably does chromatic adaptation through a LUT
so 0 cost

[mint hawk]

I might measure it later

[mystic atlas]

also native white point of WOLED should match D93

[mystic atlas]

https://lightillusion.com/forums/display-calibration-8/lg-white-balance-pre-calibration-using-service-menu-684.html

[mint hawk]

aw man

I'm not doing that lol

[spring pelican]

that's not snow. it's salt deposits

or like some sorta geological active mineral

[mystic atlas]

it's something else anyways

@mint hawk no clue what setting corresponds to what tempreture

[mint hawk]

nice

[mellow void]

No he means the mountains in the background

[mystic atlas]

@still wharf make some measurements pls 🙂

@mint hawk medium might be ~9300K

[mint hawk]

there is no medium setting though?

[mystic atlas]

(currently googling)

0 then?

[mint hawk]

don't you have a colorimeter lol

I'd do it myself, but I'm lazy

[mystic atlas]

yeah but it's not good for wp measurements

https://old.reddit.com/r/OLED_Gaming/comments/twb6nr/lg_c1_55_inch_first_oled_and_its_stunning/i3e9uy2/

[mint hawk]

dang

[mystic atlas]

I only want to inform you that Japan is the only country in the filmmaking industry where the standard is actually D93 and not D65 for every broadcasted material there is. This color temperature corresponds to "medium" or "0" which should be used for Anime to reproduce the creative intent. In USA and Europe and everywhere else in the world the standard is D65 or Warm2/Warm50 and this should be adjusted accordingly for every material outside Japan.

[mint hawk]

which one do you have?

[mystic atlas]

a bad one

uhh

Datacolor Spyder 5 iirc

[mint hawk]

oh

[next forge]

this confirms (eh, one dude on the internet so not really) my theory

[mint hawk]

colorimeter correction profiles wouldn't help much I assume?

[mystic atlas]

I am just quoting it for the colour temp setting of medium or 0

[next forge]

yeah, that's factory default iirc

which i found to be a weird default

[mystic atlas]

@next forge dogelition obtained a spec sheet of an LG OLED TV
native colour temp is 9300k

[next forge]

and reported nits are always in native i think

[mystic atlas]

these days they do in native and vivid mode

[mellow void]

I have doubts studios like square don't consider this when international sales is so major for them.

I can see it affecting anime and anything on broadcast TV for Japan tho.

[spring pelican]

oh apologies i was looking at the desert pics

yea i see shortfuse's point

certain things look too cool but others look just right i guess

i'm not sure

[mystic atlas]

LOL YOU WISH

game devs are clueless

[next forge]

Color management — a process that helps to achieve predictable and consistent color at each stage of production and post — is also rare in anime workflows. With a few exceptions, everything is created in an sRGB color space — the most common color gamut used in computer graphics applications. For feature films, animators usually create in sRGB and then the post house applies a 3D LUT to transform to P3, thereby preserving the sRGB look in a P3 colorspace.

In addition, you might be surprised to read that Japanese broadcasters set the color temperature at 9300K, much bluer than the 6500K that dominates as a standard elsewhere in the world. In fact, many of the licensed anime shows on Netflix were converted to D65 BT.1886 at the very end of post production to meet our spec and look accurate on our streaming service — as the creatives intended!

how professional anime is done in japan (and transposed for d65 netflix)

so even if they do their work in D65, it's still viewed on D93

[mellow void]

They can be, but the implementation in FFXVI is so good I doubt that's an issue.

Plus we know the issue doesn't really apply to HDR.

Oops wrong reply

Again that's an SDR issue. And that's like saying cause most people don't bother to calibrate their displays you should assume they use cool 2 cause it looks better (which a lot of people do)

[next forge]

it's not just an SDR issue, you should read https://jisakuhibi.jp/review/playstation-5-hdr-color-correct-and-no-issue

the reality is either westerners are viewing the game wrong or the japanese. they both can't be seeing it right

[mellow void]

In the case of the ps5 it's probably the Japanese seeing it wrong.

[mystic atlas]

yeah no

[mellow void]

Like it's Sony, they know color, and they know the dominant market. Which is western.

It's not like the movies they produce in the west are made wrong for every device they sell lmao

[next forge]

cinema mode is d65

[mellow void]

Cause surely this would impact more than ps5, like bluray players and such

[mystic atlas]

uh yes

[mystic atlas]

yes Sony is colour checking every game

[mellow void]

So is a western bluray player different than Japanese one, and which one is Sony releasing blurays for?

[mystic atlas]

no signals stay untouched

[next forge]

people in japan watch stuff in d93, unless it's western media, then they use d65

[mellow void]

The answer would be found checking all of them against each other.

[mellow void]

They aren't switching modes all the time i'm sure.

Unless filmmaker mode for their TVs works different.

[mystic atlas]

Japanese people are used to watching western content (D65) on their D93 screens

[next forge]

how sure?

[mystic atlas]

same way as we are used to watching Anime (D93) on D65 screens

[mellow void]

That I believe

But still I would test the bluray question.

[mystic atlas]

no the players are the same

[mellow void]

Then are the blurays different?

[mystic atlas]

highly likely not

[next forge]

I do calibrate, but I don't always watch with the same settings, and I adjust it a little to my preferences after calibrating.
Depending on the brightness of the room and the content, for overseas content I set it to D65 or D75, and switch the gamma to 2.2 or bt1886. As for the
color gamut, I'm fed up with the narrow color gamut of rec709, so I set it to a wide gamut without it looking unnatural.
The majority of Japanese content is D93, with D65 occasionally used to a certain extent, so I basically use D93, and only watch content that doesn't look yellow with D65 with D65. Maybe
because Japanese films have a higher average brightness than foreign films, I feel like even with a gamma of bt1886 the dark areas don't get crushed and they often look natural. Maybe
it's because the default gamma setting on Sony's master monitor is 2.4.

a japanese calibrator

[mystic atlas]

a Japanese only released bluray might be different than a western only released blu ray

[mellow void]

Hm, i think it would depend on how important the release is to Japan.

[next forge]

again, you should read the article i linked to...

[mystic atlas]

Like it's Sony, they know color
you wish

[mellow void]

I get it but I'm talking about how this works from a creation to delivery to consumer standpoint.

One form is dominant especially if international is considered from the beginning.

The above only tells me that Japanese TVs default to cool, which is like saying all TVs default to dynamic. Which isn't that different.

So did film maker mode change between the two?

That alone isn't a big deal to me.

[mystic atlas]

One form is dominant especially if international is considered from the beginning.
they are not doing that

[mellow void]

I doubt it.

I'd believe it if film maker mode is different on TVs in Japan than in the west.

[mystic atlas]

then there would be options for that

but there aren't

[mellow void]

Cause we know what film maker mode does in the west, if it's different in Japan then that shows there's an entirely different market standard.

[spring pelican]

https://youtu.be/uGFt746TJu0?si=HTtYZo4ZARU9HfUP&t=446 - this video (timestamped) by vincent shows a snow scene from lord of the rings where he's demonstrating color temp. When you switch between them or have them side by side, the cooler temp looks whiter. I think it's hard to like toggle them. Like my brain tells me on my calibrated C1 that the d65 is too yellow. But if i take the time to look at both of them for a minute each, it's obvious that warm is better

[mystic atlas]

SE working on FF16 and the Sony screen experts do not sit in the same room when working

[mellow void]

Bbl driving

[mystic atlas]

Bbl?

One form is dominant especially if international is considered from the beginning.
story, themes and whatever might be adjusted but no one is colour checking.

[dark tendon]

i don't think they are checking that either
Sony's QA is basically like "does the game crash if you turn off HDR while the game is running" "is the game using the correct symbols for controllers"

[mystic atlas]

CP2077 got Gold from Sony

the broken release version

[dark tendon]

well, yes lol, the certification process is purely about branding and the bare minimum of "does it crash when you change a setting on the OS"

[mystic atlas]

release ready means you can "reasonably" finish the game
bugs, glitches, etc. don't matter

[mystic atlas]

what I meant is that when developing the game SE decided on more western than Japanese themes

Sony had no hand

[mellow void]

be back later

[mellow void]

When an artist uses a color calibrated display in japan what would they be using?

[next forge]

d93/d65 depending on context

http://www.edipit.co.jp/products/blogs/detail.php?id=187

[spring pelican]

I thought 6500 was supposed to be natural noon light in california or something

[mystic atlas]

it is
but western countries using D65 and Japan/Korea and some other countries using D93 is local decision

[spring pelican]

Ah yes true

[mellow void]

apparently it's a hold over from CRTs

[ocean ether]

did i view squid game wrong

[mellow void]

squid game is korean

[ocean ether]

japan/korea

lilium mentioned netflix adjusts the white point for anime

[mellow void]

The thing is there's no special HDR standard for japan, so when a japanese movie releases with HDR the standard has to be different. But also i can't find evidence stuff like Dolby Vision is on japanase only blu-rays

no wait i'm wrong

surely there's no specific standard for dolby vision in japan

https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/宮﨑駿/dp/B0D25TGHTM?crid=2M0MIFJ1O1YFZ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.66U0b00tfDiTzSG-cXESI6HuECTcZ9jNzBlHUjRyAHyHo9hrVbcUK1sM7P0UcH-M1yXZXMHEo1CGGWNbEYrf0oJQw0p5O5PPr2jnzupt-06QNB70FdSi-8hPC5sHPIn_xV2p5ks58lLhKkMpCoar56e28o4Whvpw1ouMg4CKPCd2uuWatRng3l61Tq17U7y-n52eskKcXkCPFS3u4PqrXTcQ6-xuYukHHWCA9mhW-TbXTmIJ04ZMdhPzZjh9mzlN7IVEK4eMrcBul-nXggUDNPW5Oro4FWMCqDZ1556IxMACSqabM7Kb_ifTXDEockiH17TP1bUYhAIxMyZju1UZTq20R0g6IeEzOkeWvccNDrE.UFi_yyAbW2trTKsWBNgQsUeWBnoEQ3UwZTNpHssA8HI&dib_tag=se&keywords=4k+uhd&qid=1736215886&s=dvd&sprefix=4k+u%2Cdvd%2C149&sr=1-95&xpid=DArNXC45kAm2C

hm but also this is technically an international release

[spring pelican]

I made a typo but I'm not fixing it. Too lazy

[mellow void]

i can find HDR 10+

https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/ビコム-4K-Relaxes-リラクシーズ/dp/B08B68P4T3?crid=2M0MIFJ1O1YFZ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.34iLJQbJdSlyzsV6XEMRy-bUCAQZWCykiuQVdhHif5djGtxbpj2u0-OKKuOZ9Fpiy20xnHwjaAyT5SeOt-aKN1dRDe-75sPViEZqPKEZBQGdmovRrboT76e-y6A2VPkzfknatdSYR7_conVLMDGqwQt-c_ztV3cOrfpag834omkoDrOyU8gYoxlSl-9yJlOiwV0BlibcrhqDUNWlF01DY052eg1yMtwNuy6MmWiwPM3mJq_axJKswik1UOsNORJDEJu1yMCHCUKylrmCsj7XTSOFfwR8j0iZOZbmdmdZXriQmCApuJDiCaqKtOP1050XFmDMBB4uMogEeO6k1AgvGs4Wi0l3v0jNIPdYHuUPl3k.IS12DRjTxW3csG5PMHAf1xCitnclplk7zfHFmS3QX-Y&dib_tag=se&keywords=4k+uhd&qid=1736216191&s=dvd&sprefix=4k+u%2Cdvd%2C149&sr=1-219&xpid=DArNXC45kAm2C

WAIT WHAT SINCE WHEN
https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/Ghost-Shell-Innocence-Remaster-Blu-ray/dp/B07BCJX9KH?crid=2M0MIFJ1O1YFZ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.dRNGiDxg1Ub1h98W43zvoID1LweOMfi4oTuiF_HKxblKm5b7AwgSqG0Vavoxa9ZUWC-MxVK9fB8nysbSjCWt818B2YziK6AL3IokNfsrang3ZRHEyxg5_5K4YPuxQQroFWl-UQmeoWJ4cfmQ8y_ZjnR4esMLRDxNYCXohOP_hdx1G5DaTr86Yl2kk3D636-Q2LOA3rML7EauBVHEHfc43UW9fp7SLGRFsQINOSKuHG9j-9ZQofxuI-nZS9gLDMyEr5kgsgMXljJFkBbwqsQ0_OtaATR5EHHDnj38pj7sPpZEQ3e7YcJPXHi1BPKcpbPGoDY_oUWGK0cU_GNVLd77Y1K4AA7CsgPCgMme2i6sc_8.r3OIREi5qTj_VaSgKNcfsf-i6dCZ2ol72yS3Cae7SgM&dib_tag=se&keywords=4k+uhd&qid=1736216353&s=dvd&sprefix=4k+u%2Cdvd%2C149&sr=1-266&xpid=DArNXC45kAm2C

oh sorry i'm getting distracted

[mystic atlas]

the Koreans copied the Japanese

[mystic atlas]

long time

[mellow void]

It's not in english tho?

[next forge]

the fact my LG is in D93 made me think they just do what japan does

also NTSC-C (china) is supposed also d93

also check out https://netflixtechblog.com/bringing-4k-and-hdr-to-anime-at-netflix-with-sol-levante-fa68105067cd

in the video they work with ipads, and i'm pretty sure it's in d65, and then... netflix still transfers it all via d93

[mystic atlas]

I think Netflix advised some stuff on the workflow
Sol Levante looks similar to D93

[next forge]

this is where i got:

In addition, you might be surprised to read that Japanese broadcasters set the color temperature at 9300K, much bluer than the 6500K that dominates as a standard elsewhere in the world. In fact, many of the licensed anime shows on Netflix were converted to D65 BT.1886 at the very end of post production to meet our spec and look accurate on our streaming service — as the creatives intended!

[mystic atlas]

I have know about D93 / 9300K for years 😄

just took a long while to get there

[unique swift]

Okay, time to put this nonsense to bed

D65/D93

You can see the entire image skewing blue on the color diagram too

Skin tones become pale and sickly

The moon literally turns blue

I can maybe buy that UI was done on D93 monitor as it does turn a more neutral white, but they also might heave given it an old-timey yellow paper hue since it's a medieval fantasy game

Wouldn't be the first game to do so

[dapper cape]

yup D65 looks more correct to my eyes

[ocean ether]

@white girder did you update the reshade shader

for d93

i think you said it was too blue before

[ocean ether]

green ass hair in d93

[unique swift]

I believe this is an updated version

Is there a github repo for this shader somewhere?

This is the version I've used
#1317707168107200512 message

[unique swift]

So anyway

https://tenor.com/view/mythbusters-explosion-boom-busted-gif-19459237

[spring pelican]

[mystic atlas]

have you tried getting your eyes adapted to D93
direct comparisons are bad

that means sticking with the content for 2-5 minutes and then perceptually evaluate

because that is how it works

[ocean ether]

could just be very blue in those scenes

night are extremely blue in red dead 2

in sdr

in hdr its all gray and looks like shit

[mystic atlas]

if you chromatically adapt to a more red white point, you would also say it looks too red in direct comparisons

this is the same thing as getting used to D65

[unique swift]

I mean the entire point of the conversation was "is ff16 supposed to be viewed in D93" based on the few screenshots where D93 looked more neutral white

[mystic atlas]

yeah which is incorrect

[unique swift]

Yeah that was my point

[mystic atlas]

that was just an indicator

but D93 is still highly likely correct for FFXVI

[unique swift]

XIV you mean?

[mystic atlas]

this is the XVI thread

ok 😄

same thing for XIV

[unique swift]

I mean I just showed that it's not

[mystic atlas]

getting used to D93 is also a training thing (we also tell everyone to stick to D65 for longer so they get used to it)

[mystic atlas]

have you tried getting your eyes adapted to D93

also what I just posted

[unique swift]

Why? It's wrong?

Clearly

[mystic atlas]

adaptation takes time

[unique swift]

For this game

[mystic atlas]

direct comparisons are bad

[ocean ether]

so if i want to play ffxvi I have to stare at an image for 2-5 minutes straight before actually playing to adjust my eyes, along with having to set a higher peak and use doge maxtml and use reshade if I want to lower brightness

its official

worse hdr than sparking zero

[mystic atlas]

no just play

[mystic atlas]

adaptation takes time

[ocean ether]

yes but what if I experience a crucial moment with my eyes not yet adjusted

game ruined

[mystic atlas]

how often do I need to say it

[ocean ether]

i viewed this image in the morning in bright daylight and it looked good in d93 but now in the dark after i've been using my display for some time it doesn't look good in d93

[unique swift]

But there's no need to adapt
D65 is correct, D93 is wrong

[mystic atlas]

you don't understand

if a white point / illuminant is on the daylight locus (and that one stretches from 4000K colour temperature to 25000K) your eyes will adapt over time and that bluer or reder white will appear white to your eyes/brain

[ocean ether]

ye my eyes adjust to night shift on my phone

[mystic atlas]

your eyes are currently adapted to D65, so when you look at D93 it looks more blue

GIVE
IT
TIME

play the game for ~30 minutes and then perceptually evaluate (no analysis tools can help you here)

perceptually evaluate means:
look at all your test scenes without looking at any D65 content and feel

[mystic atlas]

also my analysis tools are for D65
so leave them off

[unique swift]

I get that
Doesn't change the fact that FF16 is not meant to be viewed in D93
I feel like we're talking past each other

[ocean ether]

but we don't have a way of knowing that for a fact

we just know that displays in japan are typically d93 in SDR

[mystic atlas]

the Japanese think D65 looks like a "piss filter"
we think D93 looks sickly

so everybody is wrong or everybody is right

also the Japanese love their pale faces

[ocean ether]

time to play mgs3 in d93

[unique swift]

SOME Japanese think D65 looks like a "piss filter
SOME

[wispy patrol]

i mean, their content viewed on d65 will look like it has a piss filter because it was made on and for d93

[ocean ether]

lerp(d65, d93, 0.5);

solved

[mystic atlas]

this will sound harsh:
you are just too used to looking at the game at D65 probably

[ocean ether]

or use d93 bias lighting behind your tv

[mystic atlas]

dylan mentioned that that makes no difference

[unique swift]

There is absolutely no reason to believe FF16 is meant to be seen in D93 outside of the country of origin
Because Japan is so isolationist that they are not aware that the entire rest of the world will view their expensive ass blockbuster with the wrong white point

[mystic atlas]

what you focus on matters the most

[ocean ether]

almost every expensive ass blockbuster in games uses the wrong gamma

[wispy patrol]

^

[mystic atlas]

one thing that "in the current times" still holds true and will for a long time probably:
game devs are oblivious when it comes to colour manangement

[mystic atlas]

this is the "artistic intent" argument all over again

[spring pelican]

When you say "get adapted to d93," shouldn't d65 content for d65 displays look the same as d93 content for d93 displays?

[mystic atlas]

btw after getting used to D93, watching Sol Levante again and the faces looking so pale + the heavy blues used actually brings it more into context

[mystic atlas]

no

[ocean ether]

they're all using srgb color space internally so idk how that affects it

[unique swift]

Does FF16 looks to you like it has a piss filter? Because it does not to me
I think Maple posted a comparison with 14 where clouds look more white in D93 vs D65; therefore you can argue that D93 is correct for this game
D65 looks more neutral white for 16, therefore I'm making the same argument here, but for D65

[wispy patrol]

check shorftuse's screenshots

[unique swift]

Yes, this is precisely what we are discussing here