▫️Cyberpunk 2077 Ultra+ 2.13 Patch Patch Patch Patch

[gritty geode]

NRD does work... but I haven't worked out why it's inconsistent for some people. I believe it's working really well for @cyan scarab

thats me I have to rework the logic

[late vine]

but I also play with a controller and with M+KB 70 fps starts to feel the input lag

But if you look up the comparisons between PTNext and PT21 Insane (which is already better than Vanilla PT) from FireKahuna, you will see that it is worth the performance hit

[gritty geode]

yes, sorry I'll fix this as soon as I can

same. PT20 or PTNext (ReGIR) all the way

that's just untrue

but the default PT in 2.0 was configured badly

are you using v3 or v4? in v4 it's in the debug panel

[sleek quiver]

Really? I swear I went through the debug panel like three times. What section is it in?

[gritty geode]

sorry I haven't had a chance to document the new version. ty 😊🙏

that's the game enabling it constantly 😩

[gritty geode]

it should be in the very last section with float numbers (now I'm worried it's not 😂)

or if you really like high fps just use PT20, it still looks great

[woven island]

Cheers, got the 4090 so PTnext is my train 🙂

[sleek quiver]

I still cant find it there, but its okay i edited the setvram 🥹

[woven island]

How about PTnext High with the Shading Candidates from Medium plus the Sharc scene scale to 200, would that make sense to save some fps but keep the quality resonable? 🙂

[late vine]

Shading Candidates even at 16 looks better than PT21 insane

so yes

If you want more fps then do that and you won’t lose anything noticeable

[late vine]

None of the VRAM settings are in debug menu

[late vine]

By the way if you are interested in proof, check these comparisons

.

[woven island]

do I need to enable RTXDI separate denosing?

[late vine]

Even 8 Shading count is better (but only slightly)

[late vine]

Nope, don't touch it. U+ will enable it automatically

when you load a game

[shadow acorn]

No apologies required! Just letting you know

[late vine]

I meant at the same performance level. I don't think naive rays/bounces can look as good as ReSTIR while having the same amount of performance or without having to make sacrifices elsewhere

[gritty geode]

so I need to

• stop separate denoiser enabling with NRD
• stop saving/setting RR/NRD
• lower shading candidates for PTNext High/Insane and increase SceneScale and/OR ideally find a way to increase the brightness of few/low light scenes
  (Hoonter suggests 400 Insane, 350 High, 250 Medium, 150 Low)
• increase quality of PT20 High/InsaneDone
• fix sparkling skin PTNext
• fix sometimes overlayed shadow appears with PTNext
• fix separate denoiser being disabled briefly with CCTV and other conditions that aren't a game exit
• document v4!
• save SSR blending (move to features)
• maybe just save separate denoiser?
• rework RIS into internal/lazy settings so it overrides the engine changing it

anythink I'm missing?

[gritty geode]

they can, promise 😊. I've done a lot of comparisons. I know ReSTIR is regarded as infinite bounces and more rays... in practice it isn't really, and it's implemented badly in CP2.1. comparing all three modes (PT20, 21, Next), consistently PT20 looks the closest to PTNext

[agile zenith]

it would be great if the debug tab would save the settings

my main reason is mainly the ssr blend, and the seperate denoiser setting

[gritty geode]

omgosh lol

it's easy if CP doesn't keep changing things 😂

it would be much better to add those to the features tab I think

oh! I need to also save ris separately because the game keeps changing it

added to the list. if anyone sees anything I've missed please let me know 😊

[late vine]

seems good, I didn’t even know some of these issues existed

[gritty geode]

out of curiosity what are you setting precache to and why?

[late vine]

It would be so amazing if there was an alternative way to bring indirect lighting to PT 2.0/2.1 level in very dark areas without having to set Sharc Scene Scale to 400+ and losing 25% performance

Another issue is flickering lights with PTNext if there are too many light sources

and some light sources being screen space when they are properly traced in PT 20 and 21

[late vine]

this is the issue I mentioned the other day about some lights not casting any light unless directly in your face with PTNext

You can refer to these comparison images I did with SHARC

[sleek quiver]

I just bumped it from 40 to 50 which I hope will give me just a liiiitle more detail in the distance. Saw it in the post on nexusmods. I have a 3090ti so I figured it would be ok with the amount on vram on that thing. Would you recommend me against doing that?

[late vine]

I use it at 60 and have no issues. it seems to be problematic above 75 and 60 is a safe value from my experience

[gentle haven]

Sharc at 60m

I missed a bit

[late vine]

no, precache

for Sharc I recommend 200 minimum

350-400 ideal

SceneScale 50

200

500

reposting for easier access

[gritty geode]

yes idk if that's fixable without asset modding... due to the apparent 512 light limit of ReGIR in this engine. I think asset modding is the appropriate solution though

[gritty geode]

nope, I just watch what people prefer, feedback is the biggest way I develop the mod. feedback and being annoyed with things

[late vine]

I have no idea why there is a lower light limit with reGIR

[gritty geode]

the 3090s are beasts 😂

[gritty geode]

yes it's dumb 😭

[late vine]

It seems to be less than half the limit of 2.1 or 2.0

[gritty geode]

did you try changing those 2 roughness levels I suggested?

[late vine]

because there is zero flicker or screen space lights on PT20 or 21 even with over 1000 light sources on screen

[gritty geode]

there isn't a reason to have a light limit in RTXDI or ReGIRDI

[shadow acorn]

Yea it causes oversharpening of faces

[late vine]

I did. But I liked how your values looked the most and it didn’t affect what we were looking for

Only tested it for a few minutes tho, didn’t have much time

[gritty geode]

k

[shadow acorn]

@pliant drum said the terrain4k mod has mesh issues?

Also the game seems surprisingly stable even when you go a little above the vram budget

[late vine]

Also, SHARC SceneScale performance impact seems to change depending on the scene. On some scenes, 400 Scene Scale is 10% slower than 200. But on other scenes it is only 2% slower

[gritty geode]

do you use Not So Good Draw Distance? that's the main reason I'm cautious with those settings

[gritty geode]

yeah, I was testing in Kerry's house, and the performance impact is minimal, but 50 just looks bad

[sleek quiver]

Not that specific one. But I might have another draw distance mod in my game somewhere. I cant remember actually lol. But having it on 50 seems to create no issues at least.

[gritty geode]

ah okay. you might like it, it adds more things being controlled by min streaming distance (so there is more detail)

basically sosuine's environment LODs, vegetation LODs, and NSGDD are where it's at

and probably Ads Draw Distance from what I hear

[cyan scarab]

Your list does seem to cover many of the bugs I've noticed but all in all, NRD has been working great for me. Just updated to 2.12a today and have already noticed the sparkling skin issue. May be a version specific issue, 2.11 was perfect.

[late vine]

Yup, matter of fact I decided to say screw it and am now using 400 scene scale.

I can afford to lose another 2 fps

[gritty geode]

innnterrresting

I didn't realise you were on 2.11 😂

maybe they broke it in 2.12a

[cyan scarab]

Wanted to see what all the fuss was about XD

All I've noticed so far is poor performance

[gritty geode]

I kinda wanna play Jedi fallen order 🤔

[sleek quiver]

I think I tried the vegetation one at one point, but turns out it affected my fps too much. With path tracing in 1440p I dont have that many fps to spare if I want things like frame gen and stuff to not act up. But I might give the others a shot, ty

[gritty geode]

wow okay

[cyan scarab]

5-7% by estimation. Should have taken some benchmarks before I updated

[gritty geode]

true. it did have a problem in an earlier version but I think it's fixed now

I am on a lowly 3070 Ti in a laptop lol

[gritty geode]

wow. maybe I'll downgrade

[sleek quiver]

Btw, what are you guys opinion on RR vs NRD? I keep seeing people really liking RR but I find the shimmering it produces so distracting, especially moving shadows. Even with DLSS quality. Feel like im missing out on something almost

[cyan scarab]

Less frames in general but it feels smoother in the menus I suppose. More testing needed

2.12a has already made me notice the issues with textures while using NRD. Other than that, I much prefer NRD since I run native res. RR with a custom DLSStweaks res set to 99% still looks far worse due to the way RR handles contours. Just have to live with worse reflections sometimes

RR also makes NPCs look horrid, even with perfect hi-res LODs

[gritty geode]

I prefer NRD. but I am I'm the [correct] minority

https://tenor.com/view/gum-school-alicia-silverstone-clueless-cher-gif-11858190

also I get 50-60 fps running NRD PTNext, vs. 40-50 with RR

truthfully I don't like the AI training of RR, I think it makes things (eyes especially) look crazy, but this is also highly dependent on resolution and upscaling. I don't think there is a right choice,well, whatever you enjoy is the right choice.

Samantha wants pizza

[sleek quiver]

Thats good to hear. Makes me feel less like im taking crazy pills

[agile zenith]

NeRD

that is pretty crazy i get way better perfromance with just RR

[late vine]

@gritty geode our convo pushed me to do further testing with SHARC and it seems there is this weird curve to it

200 to 400 loses 4% performance on average

400 looks so much better

but 400 to 500 looks pretty much identical, however, there is a 12% fps drop from 400 to 500 which is crazy

and the cap seems to be somewhere around 500-550 because there is no performance or visual difference after that

I think it should be:

400 for Insane, 350 for High, 250 for Medium, 150 for Low

[gritty geode]

lmao in school this was an insult

[gritty geode]

that will be a memory issue id say

I'm imagining it's getting rendered to a separate... thingy. what's it called. g buffer... frame buffer

[gritty geode]

okay I'll try. have you tried playing with the downscale factor too?

[late vine]

Yep, was testing both at the same time. That one is so extremely weird

Downscale factor 2 gives 30 fps less than downscale factor 5

but looks so much worse

how does that make sense

lower downscale factor seems to have higher quality indirect lighting

[gritty geode]

yeah

[late vine]

by “lower” I mean 5 has higher quality than 2

but setting it too low like 8 or 9 also kills fps

So just keep it between 4-6

it changes lighting less than scene scale

I don’t understand how it works so I just kept it at 5 and used scene scale

[late vine]

The thing is, PT 2.1 and 2.0 have similar performance to PTNext with SceneScale 200-300

it makes no sense to put it any lower than 200

when all other settings are the same, Scene Scale should be 200 minimum for PTNext

[late vine]

nah, I don’t hate it. I mean even vanilla NRD without any fixes or tweaks still looks better or at least matches RR ~40% of the time

[gritty geode]

I think your brain is in backwards

[late vine]

😭😭😭

damn

[agile zenith]

thats me without coffee

[gritty geode]

lmao that sounded far more brutal than I meant it 😂 I'm only teasing

[late vine]

well it says downscale and downscaling by 5 is smaller than downscaling by 2

[gritty geode]

seriously I'm such a troll please don't take me seriously

[late vine]

it is all good lmao

[agile zenith]

https://tenor.com/view/mortal-kombat-scorpion-gif-10389733

[gritty geode]

https://tenor.com/view/senator-armstrong-meme-based-gif-25071581

[late vine]

I really wonder why Sharc settings don’t change anything with PT 2.1 or 2.0 though

why only with ReGIR

[gritty geode]

they do

idk what CDPR has done, there's so many workarounds in there

[late vine]

From my testing in the same areas it doesn’t seem to have even half as much of an effect

With PT 20/21 Sharc Scene scale 500 looks the same as 200

in PTNext with ReGIR the difference is night and day

[gritty geode]

oh yes I agree with you there

200 was what I originally set 20 and 21 to

but people complained

[late vine]

yeah I remember

I complained too 😂😂

[gritty geode]

😂

ultimately it's what people want I think

[late vine]

Because its effects aren’t immediately visible and even less so with PT 20/21

And it makes you lose quite a bit of fps

[gritty geode]

yes, but then you go under a bridge or something and the light keeps changing all around you at 50

and I'm like how can you stand this lol

[late vine]

it is so bad at 50 I genuinely can’t believe I played like that for weeks

[gritty geode]

no same. I didn't realise what was causing the crazy lighting changes

[late vine]

wait wait wait

hold on

lighting CHANGES?

you mean dimming?

[gritty geode]

yes as you turn around

[late vine]

then brightening?

Oh my god that was THIS?

It was driving me so crazy

[gritty geode]

yes 😊

that's why I set it to 200

[late vine]

Now that I think about it, it was indeed less at 200

but still there

[gritty geode]

correct

[late vine]

I think for insane preset it should definitely be 400

only 3-4% less fps than 200 but looks much better

haven’t tested everywhere but I really doubt it would be more than a couple fps lost

[gritty geode]

otay 😊

I look forward to testing this at 8 fps 😊

[late vine]

Did further testing, the cap seems to be higher than 500

In a different new scene that I found, the image quality improved and fps was affected all the way up to Scene Scale 1000

But 400 seems to be the highest we should reasonably go

Past 400 I had to squint, go back and forth, take screenshots etc to be able to see the difference. It is definitely there but seems to be a much more subtle improvement. I feel like going from 50 too 200 is comparable to going from 1 to 2 bounces, 200 to 400 is like going from 2 to 4 bounces and past 400 (or 4 bounces) there can still be improvements but it will be much more subtle and not noticeable unless you directly compare side by side

Scene scale 200 vs 400. Apologize for the the photo quality, screenshots look really bad with hdr

[gritty geode]

you can do print(GameOptions.Get("editor/sharc","scenescale")) to see what its actuaolt set to if you want to find the limit

[late vine]

Not only is the bottom of the bridge better and more accurately illuminated, but also take a look at the textures on the curb and its reflection on the ground. Higher SceneScale restores some texture detail that is lost

[late vine]

Oh okay thank you

[whole nova]

Disabling SHARC bounce cache looks identical to having the bounce cache disabled and setting the scenescale to 1000. Gives me a bit under 10% extra FPS too... this is with PTNext as well

[late vine]

sure, it does. But disabling the cache gives me less 4% less fps than Scene Scale 400

[gritty geode]

Logarithm base [Downscale Factor, in CP, I think] controls levels of detail distribution and voxel size ratio change between neighboring levels, it doesn’t make voxel sizes bigger or smaller on average.
To control voxel size use sceneScale parameter instead.

[gritty geode]

it may not be properly integrated into regir

SHaRC is within the Nvidia RTXDI git... afaik PTNext isn't using RTXDI at all ... it's using ReGIRDI 🤔

i kinda wanna go back to CP 2.11 now 😂

[late vine]

Isn't ReGIR DI just ReGIR + ReSTIR DI?

And ReSTIR DI and RTXDI is the same thing

[late vine]

Oh this makes more sense. It controls a ratio

so just leave at default

And I am guessing bigger voxel size = better?

but wouldn't bigger voxel size mean less voxels overall? And doesn't this mean that we should be going for smaller voxels? Or am I wrong\

[late vine]

Can confirm

It looks the same as Scene Scale 1000

[gentle haven]

what, how

[late vine]

but has the performance impact as scene scale 200

[gentle haven]

ah

[late vine]

Seems like it should be disabled with ReGIR

anything less than 400-500 Scene Scale on ReGIR looks worse than PT 20/21

But if you disable sharc completely, it looks the same as Scene Scale 1000

but has same performance as 200

If you were to enable Sharc, anything below 400 wouldn’t look too good anyways and below 200 looks horrendous

so you have to take the performance hit anyways

[shut kernel]

so, you suggest disabling sharc with ptnext now?

[late vine]

according to my and @whole nova ‘s testing, yes

[gentle haven]

is it possible via edits?

lua edits i mean

[late vine]

no clue tbh

I just disable through the debug menu

will let you know in a sec if it saves or you have to do it every time

Since default U+ scene scale value is 50, you will lose performance in comparison

but if you already had SceneScale set to 200 or above, then you will have same or even better performance

[late vine]

yes, go to setmode.lua

[gentle haven]

aight

and then disable sharc?

[late vine]

ye

enable sharc

false

Although I will say Scene Scale 400 and 1000 basically look the same so 400 and SHARC disabled looks the same

if we find out that enabling SHARC is necessary for some other stuff, then Scene Scale 400 is a good value

but you will lose 10% fps

[agile zenith]

Popquiz which one has NRD enabled?

[gentle haven]

left

[agile zenith]

Good job sir, you win the internet for this day

[gentle haven]

its not that hard

[agile zenith]

tell that to all those nasty NRD lovers

[gentle haven]

yep

the black trailing is immense

[shadow heath]

humongous

[agile zenith]

humongous what? Did you just sexually harres the black trailing?

[shadow heath]

hugh

[agile zenith]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzA4dCT4X0I

[shadow heath]

mungus

[agile zenith]

perfect

[late vine]

Jesus I didn’t know it was that bad

RR ghosting was bothering the hell out of me and wanted to switch to NRD

but it is even worse

I think when I have more time I will test default Ray Reconstruction settings vs Ultra+

I think Ultra+ has more ghosting than Vanilla

[agile zenith]

those pics are with vanilla 2.12 path tracing though, when you enable both RR + NRD (which is the default behavior) its not that bad

if you just enable RR, you still get trailing, but its not a black trail, more like the edges of the (car) trails

kinda like when you run no denoiser

[late vine]

oh damn okay

[shadow acorn]

legendary video

[agile zenith]

imagine uploading that and thinking you would gain support

[shadow acorn]

Haha well he gained support, just maybe not in the way he wanted

[agile zenith]

he wasn't the one uploading it though:) that was the woman

[shadow acorn]

Ohh right. Sorry it's been a while

Yea that woman was fucking nuts

[cyan scarab]

Yeah, PTnext does have some wild black smog trails with NRD. When you get the contrast just right during lut creation those trails almost go away but its fine line between breaking the overall look of the city.

[gritty geode]

no, very different tech

[gritty geode]

did it have them in 2.11?

[gritty geode]

nope, not nececelery 😊

[gritty geode]

I don't think it used to ghost that badly 🤔

or... at all 🤔

[gritty geode]

https://youtu.be/_n72gRg1664

[gentle haven]

can anyone explain why the lights are shifty

[cyan scarab]

Yeah but maybe to a less extreme.

[agile zenith]

looks like a bit of noise that just got resolved slower

[gentle haven]

no the problem is that it keeps doing that

doesn't matter how long i stand there

[agile zenith]

than its likely not using the cache properly (dumb guess) im fairly uneducated on the subject

ask princess sammi 😄

[gritty geode]

ooo princess 😊

[gritty geode]

usually it's not enough samples

[gentle haven]

you have been promoted it seems

[gritty geode]

what mode are you in?

haha noo I've always been a princess lmao

[gentle haven]

ptnext 21 shadingcount disabled sharc insane RR

changed it to 23 now

they are still shifty

it seems to only be a problem in the dark

[gritty geode]

yes that's why it was set to 26 😊

but that's also what sharc caches

[gentle haven]

problem is that if you want sharc cach off it will kill fps

[gentle haven]

don't think it was any better with it on

[gritty geode]

mm yes it's a balance

[gentle haven]

yep with sharc cache on it still shifty

my cp just crashed

uhm

just to test i set shadingcount to 100

and still shifty

sharc cache at 1000 also does not fix

hmmmmmm

it does not like darkness

just like my pc is not liking what i am doing

it does become less

it is only a ptnext issue

sorry, i am sending to many messages again

i think i am gonna stick with pt21 for now

NVM

i just ran the benchmark with pt21 and i saw the strangest things happen

[agile zenith]

one of the beer bottles dancing? thats what i get on 2.12 lol

[gentle haven]

nope extreme shadow and reflection pop in

[agile zenith]

oof

[gritty geode]

it's probably important to understand a lot of the decisions in the mod aren't perfect, but they are a balance... balancing between

• light and dark scenes
• performance/fps and visual quality (remembering that higher real fps also often means higher quality)
• artifacts vs weirdness

...I don't think there is a "perfect". it's a worthwhile pursuit just realize that it also doesn't exist 😊

and often I'll make decisions that are like "well, this has less brightness in 4 areas but it looks better everywhere else"

[agile zenith]

@gritty geode sorry for late reaction, but i just remembered 1 thing, not really mentioned the other day when you asked for chances improvements. IDK if its possible for DLSS not to default to "auto" but to respect the users input

[late vine]

this happens only with PTNext yes

With or without sharc

and it doesn't matter how high you set SHARC quality

Since the main difference from other modes is ReGIR, I am guessing it is another ReGIR limitation

@gritty geode could it be the fact that all DI samples are set to 0 on PTNext?

SpatialNumSamples and all that stuff

[late vine]

yep, you are not alone. I know 100% that it used to ghost much less in v3.5.3. I am convinced it is the changes made to RR that probably made things look better in your testing but there wasn't enough testing done in all the different scenarios to determine whether it was actually better

[late vine]

dunno about reflections but shadow pop in is more noticeable in PT 2.0/2.1 because they can't resolve shadow definition fast enough

So technically the shadows are not popping in, but rather resolving very fast as you get close

at least from my testing that is what seems to be happening

with PTNext, shadows are fullly defined from much further away

[late vine]

Never mind, enabling LLIS+Fallback Lighting and increasing all the DI Samples didn't do anything, even after a reload

So it is just a ReGIR limitation I am pretty sure

Plus, enabling LLIS is problematic as you noted, because it seems to brighten some lights while dimming others. Seems to lead to inconsistent indirect lighting quality

[sleek quiver]

Using PTNext some vegetation goes white (look around the tank in the parking lot). I noticed there was also a post by Shizerek on nexusmods that mention this: https://imgsli.com/MjU3MzA5/7/6. Is this just a bug in current version of PTNext? Any way to resolve it?

However if I use RR instead of NRD it goes away 🤔 how come

[agile zenith]

its a known thing, sammi said she is going to try and fix it

if you click on separate denoiser again, you might get more pleasing results

[sleek quiver]

Thats good to know 🙂 ty

[sleek quiver]

Wait. Now the grass is like that also in PT20 and PT21. Did I mess something up

I did just install DLSStweaks to change my dlss preset to E. Could that affect it?

[agile zenith]

not that i know, but try disabling pathtracing in the game settings and enable it again, or switch quality profiles in game settings

[sleek quiver]

Didnt help unfortunately (but thanks though)

[agile zenith]

you did apply the new settings and loaded a save right?

[sleek quiver]

Yeah did a bunch of times, even restarted the game. And then the computer. It does look right with RT though, just not in PT modes

Maybe I should just remove and re-install the mod

[agile zenith]

might be best idk

[gritty geode]

DLSS defaults to auto?

[gritty geode]

no.. RTXDI isn't used at all 😊

[gritty geode]

try setting material test specular indirect to true in debug and see if that fixes if for NRD?

basically because vegetation is hacked in there, so relies on the separate denoiser to work properly

[sleek quiver]

Toggling "Material Test (Indirect S)" in debug worked, kinda. Thank you! Vegetation that are beneath light sources still look kinda white and "glowy". But that might be the intended behavior?

The rest of it looks good however 🙂

Interestingly it seems to have the same effect on PTNext. When I tried it out the first time vegetation was not affected by the light sources at all, but after restarting the game (with PTNext) suddenly it was, pretty much identical to the screenshot above.

[cyan scarab]

I'm also getting this bug. Need to switch to DLAA on each launch. Started happening when I upgraded to 2.12a.

[gritty geode]

might need to turn on material test direct S as well 🤔

[gritty geode]

hmm okay. i can add DLSS/DLAA controls to U+ and have it save and force the settings 😊. the only question is will it crash 😂

[cyan scarab]

Tell me about it. Lately I've been crashing just loading the game. I mean like, 2-3 times in a row... Curious if it might be due to reno not liking negative values??

[gritty geode]

what verison of reshade are you running/

?

the only one that's stable for me is the one on nexus

[cyan scarab]

6.0.1? Can't remember

Should probably look over the log to be sure

6.1.0.1834

[gentle haven]

uhm

something broke

mine is blinking constantly now

all i did was update archivexl

[agile zenith]

i think it will 100% crash if it also "forces/sets" Ray Reconstruction on, since this cannot be done on native/dlaa

[agile zenith]

you have a mine?

[gentle haven]

Eh

?

[agile zenith]

https://tenor.com/view/mine-finding-nemo-mine-mine-mine-thats-mine-lulugifs-gif-20827668

[gentle haven]

https://tenor.com/view/boi-sans-undertale-meme-gif-17339230

[sleek quiver]

Seems that none of the other three "material test" toggles make any visual changes for me. At least in that scene. For neither PT20 nor PTNext

[sleek quiver]

Just discovered another fun quirk. So while toggling Material Test (Indirect S) does fix most grass like in the screenshot I posted, it does not work when I bring out my weapon (any weapon). 🥲 However if I start moving it looks OK, but once I stop the white bushes come back in. If my weapon is holstered it always looks OK, even if im standing still.

Still goes for both PT20 and PTNext

[gritty geode]

haha wow that's a special bug 😂

[shadow acorn]

DId someone say there was a vanilla bug where NRD and RR get stuck on at the same time?

if you're using RR

is there a situation where you can reproduce this? So I can avoid those conditions?

[gritty geode]

yes it's possible. U+ won't let it happen, if you're using RR, it constantly disables NRD

[shadow acorn]

oh nice

good to know, thanks

I think I may try playing with RR on

NRD is annoying me with rain

it can't keep up

causes a ton of jitter

easy to reproduce. Just be inside a car when it's raining and look out. Or look outside the H10 window

shit is jiggling all over

[gritty geode]

right, I'm going to compare NRD to an older version, I think it was working a lot better before (but can't think of anything that's changed. we'll see)

[shadow acorn]

also it's not an ultra+ problem, the rain jitter. It's vanilla problem

just to be clear

[gritty geode]

yes all good 😊

[shadow acorn]

Ugh so RR makes the environment look better and things are way more stable....but it makes all NPCs look...."weird"

So really both RR and NRD are bad lol

We have no good option

NRD just can't really keep up with PT unfortunately.

So gotta pick your poison. NPCs or Environment

[late vine]

Yep, this is why I pick RR

I don’t ever look at NPCs unless I am directly talking to them

but environments, and literally everything else is constantly noticeable

And once you go into higher “base” resolutions like 4k DLSS Balanced (1200p internal res) or higher, and if your base fps before frame gen is 45+, the NPC ghosting becomes a minor issue

At 4k DLSS Balanced, getting 80+ fps with frame gen, RR is perfectly fine for NPCs

[shadow acorn]

I'm doing 1440p quality dlss, with frame generation, with a cap of 80 fps

I don't use VRR and my monitor is 240hz, so i'm doing 1/3rd max refresh @ 80fps

otherwise i'd have to do 120fps and I do not think i can hit that consistently

[late vine]

You can force DLAA or a higher quality DLSS with DLSSTweaks

At 1440p, even with DLSS Quality the internal resolution is pretty low (960p)

You can increase the DLSS Quality scaling from 0.67 to 0.77

which would bring you to a base resolution of ~2.2 million pixels from ~1.7 million

It will cost you performance but you should be able to do it easily with a 4080

or even 4070Ti Super

[shadow acorn]

DLAA i wouldn't be able to hit my target fps i don't think, not with the game maxed out

but yea 960p internal is pretty low agreed

Do you think I could hit 80 fps constant with DLAA at 1440p maxed out on a 4080 super?

i guess i didn't ry

[late vine]

@shadow acorn how did it go?

[shadow acorn]

oh didn't try yet ha

[late vine]

If DLAA doesn't work out, raising DLSS Quality scaling factor from 0.67 to 0.77 should be good enough without completely killing performance. It is basically the DLSS Ultra Quality setting that Nvidia didn't include in cyberpunk

[shadow acorn]

there is no RR with dlaa right?

since it's native

[late vine]

You can

But not from game settings

you have to use DLSS Tweaks

[shadow acorn]

does it try to use NRD?

does that mean you get all the bad parts of NRD

if you run native

vs dlss

[late vine]

set DLSS Quality scaling to 1.0 and when you choose DLSS Quality in game, it will be DLAA + Ray Reconstruction

[shadow acorn]

just curious what happens without that

cause NRD sucks

[late vine]

Yes

I am telling you

If you want to use RR at native'

you need DLSS tweaks

[shadow acorn]

ok gotchya

hopefully i can use that with SK

not sure

[late vine]

SK?

[shadow acorn]

specialK

[late vine]

Special K?

[shadow acorn]

yea

[late vine]

Shouldn't be a problem I think

[shadow acorn]

alrighty

https://www.nexusmods.com/cyberpunk2077/mods/7415?tab=files

this right/

?*

[shadow acorn]

ok testing it out shortly

[late vine]

yup

Make sure to also use the latest DLSS 3.7

with Preset E

[shadow acorn]

Doesn't seem to work with SK

[gritty geode]

yep! 🙄

[sleek quiver]

I take it that the PT20 found in the v3.5.3 download is different than the PT20 found in the v4.0-rc1 download? Is that correct?
I am experiencing none of the issues with white grass and such in the v3.5.3 download version.

Other than that, are there any major upgrades found in the PT20 v4.0-rc1, compared to the other one? Or is PT20 more or less similar in both downloads?

[gritty geode]

yes there's some problems with v4 I need to fix

[gentle haven]

There is also rc2

[sleek quiver]

Oh! Where do I find that? Its not on the nexus page

[gentle haven]

Its on the discord here

#1224890336833179749 message

[gritty geode]

i can't pin things i'm sorry 😊

i took a brief break to fix Jedi Fallen Order. it's fixed 😜

[shadow acorn]

You got it?

[gritty geode]

yes 😊 it's so much fun 😂

[shadow acorn]

Nice. how do I fix it!

[gentle haven]

she has made an ultra plus mod

@sleek quiver maybe check this out too: #1224890336833179749 message

[sleek quiver]

Thanks that helped a lot actually. However it seems I am still having all the same ol issues in rc2, so I will stick to v3.5.3 for now while playing 🙂

[gentle haven]

Ah alright

[shadow acorn]

Yea i'm using 3.5.3

[gritty geode]

what on earth did I break 😭

thanks everyone I'll look soon, I think I just need a break from CP'e madness for a few days

[shadow acorn]

Dude take a break!

[gritty geode]

otay 😊

i'm just enjoying playing fallen order at the moment lol

[shadow acorn]

When did you fix it

[gentle haven]

5 may the mod was uploaded

[shadow acorn]

Can someone link me?

[gritty geode]

sure! this weekend just gone https://discord.com/channels/1161035767917850784/1236636890543689759

[late vine]

Has anyone here played Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition, I am playing through it right now and honestly it is so damn impressive how they pulled this off back in 2019

I am playing at 4k with DLAA, getting ~80 fps average and it is so crisp

It is not path tracing but honestly I think I prefer this over Cyberpunk’s PT any day

Native 4k + DLAA + base 80 fps without any ghosting or frame generation artifacts or Ray Reconstruction smearing or soft image due to low internal resolution. It is just so crisp

And honestly in most cases, I couldn’t tell the difference from PT because of how everything has accurate shadows and bounce lighting. Cyberpunk even with PT has a lot of objects without shadows

anyways I really recommend you check it out

[gentle haven]

Inde d

Metro exodus enhanced edition is a game on the good looking side

[late vine]

I think it is pretty much like RT+PT

Like Alan Wake 2

but the raster/PT balance is a bit more on the raster side

however in return you don’t have to deal with any ghosting or smearing or artifacts

Who knows maybe Path Tracing will also be like that if we could run it at Native 4k 60+ fps without any DLSS

But we will definitely need RTX 6090 for that

[late vine]

or like Lumen

[gentle haven]

Yeah, although lumen has a few issues

[late vine]

yep, it is technically worse than PT

But the lack of ghosting, smearing and artifacts compensates for it

combined with a crisper image due to DLAA instead of DLSS Balanced/Performance and smoother gameplay due to no frame gen but rather normal high fps

[shadow heath]

Enhanced Edition came out in May 2021

And it absolutely has ghosting and smearing lol what are you talking about

That's one of the main limitation of their caching solution for "infinite bounce"

It uses cascaded shadows and most light sources are not shadow casting

Then again most of the game is lit by the sky

[late vine]

The game’s default DLSS is v2.4 which is very old

I also experienced ghosting and smearing with that

[minor smelt]

This is true yeah, but maybe this is handled in such a way that it wasn't notable for @late vine

[late vine]

Updating to 3.7 fixes it.

[shadow heath]

Their system is super reliant on temporal acummulation and light has a very big delay

[minor smelt]

Yeah, that Enhanced Edition is a bit older now haha

[late vine]

And even with the default DLSS v2.4, it has much less ghosting and smearing compared to PT in cyberpunk or Alan Wake

[late vine]

Same with PT though and I noticed it much more in Cyberpunk than I did in metro

[shadow heath]

That's not surprising

[minor smelt]

But I think @late vine is talking about ghosting during movement of objects or the user. You are talking about ghosting regarding the RT-features itself.

[shadow heath]

RT is more probabilistic

[late vine]

Yeah

In cyberpunk there is ghosting even without Ray Tracing tbh

It is a constant

it just becomes much worse with PT

Alan Wake was better in that regard

My overall point wasn’t that Metro’s Raster/Ray Tracing mix is better than PT, it obviously isn’t. I just wanted to say that it is very impressive considering it was released a few years before Path Tracing made its debut in games

[shadow heath]

It was the first game to have a comprehensive RTGI system similar to what hardware Lumen does

[late vine]

And another thing is that Cyberpunk PT is 5 times heavier to run but it definitely does not look 5 times better

[shadow heath]

You can't measure it that way

Same way people will argue that ray tracing doesn't look 4 times better or whatever

[late vine]

Well yeah, I know why Path Tracing is much more heavy

[shadow heath]

But games are not moving to path tracing directly so it's not really an issue

Also Nvidia's UE5 branch is being done in a way that the path tracing is built as an extension to Lumen

so devs can develop with Lumen and ship for PC with a path tracing version that is compatible with it

instead of having separate rendering systems altogether

[late vine]

yep, I think this game might have changed my opinion on Hardware Lumen. If Metro from 3 years ago can get this close to Path Tracing with something similar to Lumen, then I would be fine with settling for Lumen if it means there will be more games utilizing proper RT

[minor smelt]

Idk, that is all personal preference of course. Cyberpunk 2077 likely looks much more accurate/realistic

[minor smelt]

This doesn't mean that it looks dramatically better for everyone as that is just based on how a person perceives the final image

[late vine]

Cyberpunk doesn’t just look more realistic, it is simply the best looking game of all time, especially with some texture and LOD mods. But after playing Metro, I think I still prefer the smoothness of high fps and crispness of 4k DLAA

[shadow heath]

Cyberpunk's geometry and material quality is last gen

[late vine]

4k DLAA with native 80 fps will look much better in motion compared to 4k DLSS Performance and native 50-60 fps

Even though in stills, cyberpunk will look much better

That’s why I prefer it for now

but obviously when the GPUs will be able to do the same with Path Tracing, it will be a no brainer

But yeah, I was very convinced that it should be “PT or nothing” but Hardware Lumen is probably the “better” solution until RTX 60xx series or so

[shadow heath]

I'm a stickler for accuracy and have an eye for rendering mistakes that deviate from reality, if game has a PT mode then it's pretty much no brainer choice

Outside of maybe UE5 games you're probably not going to get an RT mode that is fully featured if game also has PT

[late vine]

If there is a choice, then sure. But I doubt we will get PT in a lot of games any time soon leave alone as a choice between Lumen or PT

I am guessing GTA 6 might get PT, since we will probably be on RTX 60xx by then

And Cyberpunk 2, Witcher 4 will definitely get one

same with Remedy games

The next Metro game might have one too

[shadow heath]

Really forget about it. That game is all about console market, Rockstar themselves have never been known to push new rendering technologies. And I doubt Nvidia has the money to convince them to implement it

[late vine]

True yeah

[shadow heath]

Also remember how they patched RT into GTA 5, for consoles only

[late vine]

But the other games I mentioned all have devs that implement the latest tech

[late vine]

I am still kinda salty about that

[shadow heath]

That's a given because they moved to UE5

[late vine]

and at the same time, all of those games are years away, none of them even having a release date or even a release year

[shadow heath]

But by the time Cyberpunk 2 comes out PT will already be semi standard lol

I think TW4 will be 2025 or Q1-2 2026

[minor smelt]

I think this too. Likely they will just do what they did with GTA 5 and RDR 2 and release the PC version with just some enhancements and unlocked FPS.

[shadow heath]

But they seem to have moved to some RT at least

[minor smelt]

Basically just increasing some settings-values from the console version

[shadow heath]

DF analysis of the trailer says it's definitely console footage, and it clearly shows the use of RT GI and reflections

[minor smelt]

So, if they do have RTGI and RT reflections, they might just improve the quality of that

[late vine]

to be honest RDR2 PC version is more than just a couple enhancements though. Console versions were basically running on low settings and the difference between low and ultra settings in RDR2 was quite big that you could consider it a remaster

[minor smelt]

Haha, nice, we watched the same video

[shadow heath]

Are you sure you're not misremembering?

Consoles were Medium-High equivalent

And settings beyond that make little difference

[late vine]

Digital Foundry said smth about it

[minor smelt]

Of the opinion that it is not. In my "perceivement" it mainly just increased internal variables. So, didn't add really new things, but just increased the quality of what was already there

[late vine]

yes but the heavy stuff like lighting or distant shadows and all that were all low

[shadow heath]

The biggest difference between RDR2 on console and PC maxed is the resolution

[shadow heath]

But that mostly affected the resolution

volumetric lighting just looked more pixelated when you saw fog

PC maxed is mostly a quantitative improvement

not qualitative

[late vine]

IIRC lighting on highest setting enabled lighting and shadows from the sky/moon

But yes, the difference might not be as big as I remember it

[shadow heath]

it added some minor local bounce

mostly visible in certain cutscenes

[late vine]

tbh I don’t care about rockstar games all that much

I find both GTA 5 and RDR2 mediocre by modern standards

I am much more excited for Cyberpunk sequel or the next Witcher, Metro or the next remedy game

[shadow heath]

RDR2 has mediocre game design

narrative and world building/simulation is unmatched by any game

[late vine]

I am gameplay first type of guy

So if the gameplay is mediocre the entire game is immediately mediocre

unless it is a walking sim or something

[shadow heath]

Cyberpunk gameplay is also very mediocre

[late vine]

hell nah 😂😂

wdym

[shadow heath]

and the world building/similation is basically no nexistent

[late vine]

Cyberpunk has basically one of the best gameplay I have played in single player games

[shadow heath]

🤣

[late vine]

the gunplay is mediocre I would say

But overall gameplay is pretty good

[shadow heath]

it's pretty much Ubisoft game design

[late vine]

to an extent

[shadow heath]

it failed pretty hard at the promised cyberpunk rpg gameplay

[late vine]

but not nearly as bad as Horizon games

[shadow heath]

so much stuff was cut

it's a husk

[late vine]

You can add quite a bit of roleplaying with mods but I agree

[shadow heath]

and it doesn't offer a functional sadnbox open world

[late vine]

It is no Fallout New Vegas

[shadow heath]

it's like a linear-ish story focused game in a fake city

and it took 3 years of patching to get to the current state

[late vine]

Agree to disagree then. I found RDR2 no less fake

[shadow heath]

lol mate

[late vine]

I have 140 hours in RDR2 and 310 in Cyberpunk

[shadow heath]

RDR2 has almost endless attention to detail in the world

actual npc schedules etc

[late vine]

I have played both more than enough and in my personal opinion those things don’t matter in the slightest when you are actually playing the game

[shadow heath]

the world in Cyberpunk is like GTA SAn Andreas tier

[shadow heath]

that depends entirely on what you value in a game

but we weren't talking about that

[late vine]

Well yes, if you ignore the personal preference part lmao

[shadow heath]

I was talking about whether or not the game actually has a believable world that looks like it functions

[minor smelt]

GTA 5 is visually mediocre indeed by modern standards. RDR2 is slowly entering that stage too maybe in my opinion

[shadow heath]

in cyberpunk for like a year npcs despawned when you turned around

[late vine]

RDR2 has a more detailed world but Rockstar also has double the amount of employees, with a bigger budget and more time

so there is that

[shadow heath]

Witcher 3 has a more belieavable world

[late vine]

and yes the game was pretty bad for the first couple years and I am not excusing it but games aren’t such a big part of my life that I care about holding grudges against game companies

[shadow heath]

what grudges

[late vine]

How some people refuse to acknowledge Cyberpunk being good in its current state just because they released it in a bad state and it took them a few years of patching to get there

which is true

but doesn’t change the fact that the game is good now

[late vine]

I disagree

[minor smelt]

Guys, we are getting a bit off-topic here as we involve more and more different games into this discussion. This topic is about a specific mod for CP2077. Might I suggest to move this discussion towards #💬chat ? 🙂

[late vine]

my bad

I will continue playing the game, thanks for the chat guys

[broken hornet]

When renaming the usersettings.json - what do I actually "do"? I have been been hitting "rename" in file explorer and then hitting enter without changing anything. Is this correct?

[gritty geode]

yes i think if you play CP with RT+PT with some add-on AO like Complete RT, it's probably a better experience and better looking than path tracing

[gritty geode]

no you need to change the name to something else like usersettings.json.bak

😊

[broken hornet]

renaming and then changing back? Or just booting up? Thank you! 🙂

[gritty geode]

no rename it and then boot the game. the game will recreate it

what problem are you having?

[broken hornet]

What prompted was extreme stuttering and frame drops leading to a crash (implying a VRAM leak) on the road leading to the 2nd Aldecaldos camp. Loading saves in different locations didn’t reproduce, but I wanted to rename the json just in case.

Thank you for the help!

(PTNext RC-1, insane, 12GB vram)

[late vine]

where can I find complete RT?

[subtle flame]

Pretty sure its a paywalled AO ReShade shader

[gentle haven]

Rtgi IMMERSE

You can use mxao (also a shader by the same guy) for free

[subtle flame]

Would you do turn off the game's AO while using ReShade AO? Does Marty's iMMERSE MXAO compare with it? Its free on github

Complete AO is made by a different guy

[gentle haven]

Yes that is the one

[gentle haven]

True

[subtle flame]

https://www.patreon.com/NiceGuy147

I think its this guy

[gentle haven]

But i believe mxao uses more of a rtgi kind of solution

[subtle flame]

Might be he too heavy on performance though

[gentle haven]

Wait

Does his solution use actual ray traced reflections or no?

[subtle flame]

CompleteRT does yes

[late vine]

Which one is the complete rt

[subtle flame]

But its screen space only

[gentle haven]

Aw shit

That sucks

[subtle flame]

iMMERSE RTGI also has a form of "reflection"

Screen Space AO should be perfect though for this use-case

[late vine]

Does the shader do actual RT though

[gentle haven]

Also saw somenone trying to make a game engine addon for Pt

[subtle flame]

Yes software

[gentle haven]

Its not out yet though

[subtle flame]

Pretty good for older games

[late vine]

I am not knowledgeable with shaders I thought they just changed the contrast and colors and stuff

[subtle flame]

That was Marty

[gentle haven]

No did not mean rt remix

[late vine]

Like are these shadows actually accurate?

[gentle haven]

No they are way more advanced then that

Shaders are already in every game

[late vine]

So which one is better RTGI Immerse or Complete RT

[gentle haven]

I believe even the PT you see in cp is a shader

[late vine]

I don’t mind paying 5 bucks

[subtle flame]

All ReShade RT implementations only operate in screen space right now. Marty wanted to make a ReShade PT add-on that operates in world space

iMMERSE is the best

I have it

Use it all the time for older games

[late vine]

Could you please make a comparison between PTNext and PTNext + immerse

[subtle flame]

That would not be the time to use a ReShade RT shader lol. The game already has a much higher quality native PT implementation. Even Cyberpunk's normal RT is better than the shader tbh. RT+PT will however greatly benefit from a ReShade AO shader.

[late vine]

Oh

[subtle flame]

Like this https://github.com/martymcmodding/iMMERSE

[late vine]

I thought it was higher quality than PT, based on a comment by Sammi

[subtle flame]

Marty gives his AO shader out for free

[late vine]

So PTNext alone still looks better than RT+PT + Shader?

[subtle flame]

His RT shader is the one that is paywalled

[late vine]

And what about compatibility. Would it work with games like Metro Exodus which already have really good RT implementations

[subtle flame]

For me, no. However, I am particularly sensitive to PT ghosting. I can't stand to use PT20 or PTNext for this reason and only use RT+PT or PT21.

[subtle flame]

I really only use ReShade RT on old games that have no form of RTGI

Native RT is almost always better tbh

[gentle haven]

Eh

Pt21 has less ghosting then ptnext?

I have seen it the other way around

[gritty geode]

https://www.patreon.com/posts/completert-what-91758124 I think

[gentle haven]

I am also very sensitive to ghosting

[gritty geode]

it's lighter than immerse

[gentle haven]

So that seems to be a good option to make old games look better

[gritty geode]

ray tracing doesn't have AO in CP 😔

it's the reason it looks a bit off

[late vine]

Performance cost and money aside, which one looks the best in terms of quality

because I am just now finding out about this I didn’t know you could add some RT to games without RT

[subtle flame]

It does have SSAO though right? That's what I meant

[gritty geode]

Krush was testing RT+PT, and adding AO looks amazing

[gritty geode]

nope! it doesn't work I don't believe!

not with RT anyway

[subtle flame]

IMO yes. PTNext is just more "accurate" to me

[gritty geode]

yes sorry I have to fix ptnext

[late vine]

PTNext IS more accurate

If you put PT21 insane and even PTNext Medium side by side, PTNext still looks better

[gritty geode]

I'm just going to write a program that dumps all the settings of 3.5.3 and 4.0 so I can see what's different, since their architecture is so different I can't just compare the packages

[subtle flame]

Agreed but I personally hate the ghosting

[late vine]

me too

ReGIR in PTNext is just better than all other modes

however

That is, until you encounter the limitations of ReGIR

[gritty geode]

I don't think beta07 ghosts 🤔

[subtle flame]

Marty's iMMERSE

https://www.martysmods.com

[late vine]

such as having too many lights around you will make some of them start flickering and stop casting lights off screen

[gentle haven]

That are only there because cdpr fucked up

[late vine]

Yep, a proper ReGIR implementation without the current limitations and with less ghosting would be perfect

[late vine]

Immerse Pro is better than regular immerse I assume

Alright I will check it out

[gentle haven]

Immerse pro is rtgi shader

And a few others

[subtle flame]

iMERRSE is free on github. Pro is paywalled and has RTGI

[gentle haven]

Indeed

[subtle flame]

yup

[late vine]

And it wouldn’t make games which already has RTGI look better

[subtle flame]

not really

[late vine]

such as Alan Wake 2, Cyberpunk or Metro

[gentle haven]

Not really

[subtle flame]

No. It's for older game with no form of global illumination

[gentle haven]

Only issue i have with rtgi shaders is that it uses screen space reflections

I love the normal non screen space rt reflextions

[late vine]

still better than no RT considering you would be using it in games without RT

[gentle haven]

True

[late vine]

I just realized that it has been months since I last played a game without a proper native RT implementation lmao

[subtle flame]

Also has problems with game's UI. You have to get it to render underneath UI, transparencies, and smoke effects etc

[gentle haven]

It was for me too, until i started playing subnautica again last week

[late vine]

Alan Wake 2, then Control then another cyberpunk playthrough and now Metro

[subtle flame]

You can use this https://github.com/4lex4nder/ReshadeEffectShaderToggler or SK to tag the shaders to render after the RTGI

[gentle haven]

Though i did adjust a lot of stuff to make it look 10x better then normal

[late vine]

do elaborate

[gentle haven]

Using a few shaders, adjusting lod distance, etc

[late vine]

Pop in in Subnautica was so damn annoying

[gentle haven]

It is fixable

[late vine]

dm?

[gentle haven]

You just start hitting an engine limit trying to increase it to far

[subtle flame]

🥹 🥹 🥹

[gritty geode]

I'm playing Jedi fallen order rn and you wouldn't even know it doesn't have RT

[subtle flame]

https://tenor.com/view/dune-dune-part-2-stilgar-fremen-disbelief-gif-17405899726704623697

[gritty geode]

it looks so good

[gentle haven]

Yeah, games don't actuall need rt if you do the lighting good

[gritty geode]

yes. they just replaced UE's reflections and it looks really good

[gentle haven]

Only thing that can not be done by developers without rt is reflections

[gentle haven]

Yeah

[shadow heath]

How is it amazing when the AO renders on top of everything

[gritty geode]

the only thing that looks a bit weak are characters

[late vine]

I would pay extra $20 on top of the base price for every new game to come out with Nanite and Hardware Lumen implementation at minimum. I am so tired of rasterization and pop ins and LOD culling 10 meters in front of your face in 2024

[gentle haven]

Lod popin go brrrrrrrt

[subtle flame]

Was this using in-engine RT or ReShade for AO?

[late vine]

It is genuinely baffling. Do devs expect everyone to play on a TV sitting 4-5 meters away and hoping that they won’t notice the very obvious LOD Culling

[subtle flame]

Console gamers 😭

[gentle haven]

I did not notice it with cp at first

[late vine]

Even in Cyberpunk with all these mods, go to a high ground and look only a little into the distance. 2D cars and textures so low quality they look straight out of 2007

[gentle haven]

But that was indeed on an console

[gentle haven]

Cyberpunk 2007

[late vine]

One day we won’t have to worry about LODs

they are my biggest immersion breakers

[gentle haven]

That is what nanite is supposed to fix

[gritty geode]

Reshade for AO. he doesn't think the games AO is working

[subtle flame]

hmmmmm

[gritty geode]

https://imgsli.com/MjU3NzY1/4/3

https://imgsli.com/MjU3NDg0

[gentle haven]

I find it curious that i can use nanite and lumen in vr and still get 90fps

[late vine]

Maybe a hot take:

Noticeable pop in and LOD culling is MUCH worse than raster. I would rather have no RT but good draw distance than the other way around

[gritty geode]

wow that's amazing

I really like UE

[late vine]

me too

[gentle haven]

Yeah they really did some voodo level magic with ue

[gritty geode]

this is the lowest setting of complete RT apparently

I was sure he did a comparison with RT+PT but I can't find it. it looked amazing

[gritty geode]

yes it's so clever

how they do shadows is so good

[subtle flame]

Wonder how it looks with only an AO shader. I don't think the RTGI part of the ReShade is needed

Gonna try RT+PT with iMMERSE AO

[gritty geode]

no me either

[shadow heath]

The AO is comically strong and again it's rendering on top of final image, so on top of transparencies, fog, etc, that makes it automatically unusable

[subtle flame]

yup

[gentle haven]

Shadows on smoke

Yippie

[gritty geode]

yeah I'm trying to work out if it's better or just more contrasty

[late vine]

same

can't decide

[subtle flame]

That's why only AO is interesting with using that add-on I linked to have it render underneath all that stuff

[late vine]

We need more comparisons to be able to tell whether it is more accurate or just has more contrast

[gritty geode]

I wonder if I can get the games AO working

or see if it is

[shadow heath]

Of course it's not going to be more accurate, it's a screen space shader, versus PT AO from world space

But a lot of people think that pitch black thick AO is better

[subtle flame]

and by the end of it the performance might be worse that just using PT lmao

oh well

[shadow heath]

probably not

[subtle flame]

no good options

ReShade AO is heavy too

[shadow heath]

not that heavy

[subtle flame]

Maybe Sammy can perform a miracle and get in-engine AO working

[late vine]

it is still 25% lighter than PT

95 fps vs 76

But not big enough to not just use PT

[subtle flame]

Yes, but it will be a hassle to tag all the shaders to render after the ReShade

[late vine]

Yeah so long story short

don't use with games that have PT

[shadow heath]

you don't use with almost any game really unless you like seeing AO bleed through all sorts of stuff

[late vine]

does this apply to this shader only? Or just RT shaders in general

[shadow heath]

all reshade shaders

[subtle flame]

In general

yes

[shadow heath]

unless someone makes a specific addon to make it render earlier in the render pass

which is very rare

[subtle flame]

Its good for very specific use-cases

For extra "pop" in older games

But you have to go through the hassle for each game to tag shaders

[late vine]

Yeah I assumed it being a post process effect would be a problem

[shadow heath]

this whole phenomenon of Reshade "RTX" clickbait that's been going on for years now

is incredible annoying

[subtle flame]

This is the only solution for that

[shadow heath]

and people inject it into modern games that already have AO and good lighting

and they usually do it on top of game's existing AO lol

[subtle flame]

Yeah lmao

[shadow heath]

but it's somehow popular, it's same thing as all those Reshades with deepfried colors, "Fake HDR" shaders and super heavy sharpening

like that's the average gaymer's idea of what looks good

[late vine]

I absolute DESPISE any mods that change color

[subtle flame]

Its good when used conservatively and with the proper ReShade add-on to tag shaders

[late vine]

I have yet to find a single LUT for Cyberpunk that looks better than native

or even similar quality

they maybe look better in 4 or 7 handpicked scenes

[subtle flame]

Worse, all are SDR luts smh

[late vine]

but worse everywhere else

[late vine]

yup, almost none of them don't work properly with HDR

[shadow heath]

The GITS one is supposed to be good, HDR compatible and works well with Ultra Plus

Someone here recommended it to me long ago

[late vine]

Yeah that is the only one I found to be at least decent but I still by far prefer native

It changes the artistic vision of the game and that is not a good idea with games like Cyberpunk which already has a good art style

[subtle flame]

Even the more color accurate ones in the optional files? I hate the default one thats almost black and white

[late vine]

Not to mention it also messes with the weather and sun brightness and all that stuff

I think that is the env

But he says the LUT is designed to work with the env

[subtle flame]

Well luts can be used with any ENV

[late vine]

The only reshade I use is RenoDX

that one at least fixes the HDR

[subtle flame]

I love Reno

[late vine]

even then, the default settings are pretty ugly and don't even look accurate to my eyes

had to do quite a bit of experimenting to make it look better than the default HDR

So anyways, I guess this means there isn't a way I can improve Metro Exodus RT any further

I already love how it looks but I would love to improve it further

[subtle flame]

My only problem with Metro EE RT is that it can be very noisy

RR would be awesome in that game

[late vine]

You have to set the resolution pretty high

[subtle flame]

Their denoiser isn't great

Yeah maybe I should just force DLAA for that game

[late vine]

I am playing at 4k + DLDSR 2.25x + DLSS Quality and there is zero noise and I am pretty sensitive to noise. It is upscaling from 4k to 5760x3240 (18.7 million pixels, 2.25 times higher than 4k) and downscales back to 4k

Looks better than 4k DLAA

[subtle flame]

FPS with the 4090?

[shadow heath]

DLDSR with DLSS always looks better than DLAA

DLAA doesn't even seem to work properly in many games

you can see it increase aliasing in some games even vs DLSS Q

[late vine]

~85 average, drops to 60-70 in heavy areas like the forest

[subtle flame]

Maybe my 4070 Ti can handle it at 1440p

Interesting

I was just about to uninstall Metro too

[late vine]

DLDSR is so good. I used to use it when I had a 1440p monitor and the difference it made versus native 1440p is insane

[shadow heath]

of course, the point of it is to approximate x4 pixel increase quality but with half the perf cost

[subtle flame]

Does it have more overhead compared to DLAA though?

[late vine]

On a 32" 4k monitor the difference between 4k native + DLAA and 4k + DLDSR 2.25x is not as big but it is still noticeably better

[late vine]

yes, it obviously costs more performance

[late vine]

even though it is upscaling from the same resolution, it still renders the game at the higher output resolution and then downscales so it costs a bit more than just DLAA

[shadow heath]

You can also use it with a lower DLSS level to improve quality without the DLAA perf hit

[late vine]

Below 4k the difference is huge

at 4k it is still noticeable

but there is only so much sharpness you can get on a 32" screen

[shadow heath]

But if you decided to use DLAA and take that perf hit it's just better to use DLDSR with DLSS adjusted for same performance, it looks much better

[late vine]

This

At first I was using DLAA but then I realised I might as well use DLDSR

DLDSR + DLSS Quality will have the same internal resolution as DLAA. Since 2.25 x 0.667 x 0.667 = 1.0

[subtle flame]

Hmm it seems I have some testing to do then! See you guys later

[shadow heath]

Or you can use it to improve DLSS quality with a small cost

[late vine]

For example in metro, I was shocked how much difference resolution made

The shadows of a grated fence for example

Even the smallest gaps between the grating was resolved in shadows

Even though Cyberpunk's PT is superior, there was some things that Metro's RT does better. Such as ALL grass casting shadows.

[shadow heath]

Metro doesn't have RT shadows

[late vine]

Or how the candle lights or other types of flames cast moving shadows instead of static

[late vine]

What do you mean it doesn't

[shadow heath]

It's RTGI and reflections except for transparecies

[late vine]

Then how are all the shadows so accurate

[subtle flame]

Enhanced Edition definitely does

[late vine]

It has to be RT because if it isn't, then this has to be the most advanced form of raster shadows I have seen in my life

[shadow heath]

it doesn't

why do you have to argue about something u can check in 5 seconds

[late vine]

Proof?

[subtle flame]

https://youtu.be/NbpZCSf4_Yk?si=kuTf2adqXzxfst-R&t=973

[shadow heath]

lmao

[gentle haven]

Metro has two different versions

[subtle flame]

Its timestamped

[gentle haven]

One is rt only

The other has rt as an option

[late vine]

Yep, I feel like I am being gaslit lmao

It very obviously has RT shadows

[shadow heath]

No it doesn't

[subtle flame]

yeah hes wrong lmao

[gentle haven]

True

[subtle flame]

Enhanced Edition is fully RT

[shadow heath]

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/metro-exodus-pc-enhanced-edition-ray-tracing-dlss/

[subtle flame]

Thats the point

[shadow heath]

Nope

RTGI/Emissives and reflections

[late vine]

And what exactly do you think RTGI does

[subtle flame]

Shadows are part of the RTGI

[shadow heath]

That's a question for you since you don't seem to understand

No they aren't

[subtle flame]

In the same way that there are shadows in Cyberpunk PT lmao

[shadow heath]

Metro is not path traced

[late vine]

It is not

[subtle flame]

So your just being semantic then? There are shadows

[late vine]

But it still has better shadows than Cyberpunk's PT most of the time lmao

[gentle haven]

Shadows like sammi said are the absence of light bounces

[shadow heath]

The game uses cascaded shadow maps

[gentle haven]

That is correct

But not having pt does not mean that shadows are not ray traced

[subtle flame]

I know its not PT but RTGI itself creates shadows lol

[gentle haven]

As you can see with rt+pt

If you would have ao it would look the same as pt

[shadow heath]

Seriously this is the most stupid argument ever, the features are listed by Nvidia and you can go watch the developer's GDC talks if you don't believe them

[subtle flame]

Chillll lmao

[late vine]

1. Still has more accurate soft shadows and regular shadows than Cyberpunk's PT
2. Still has more objects casting shadows than Cyberpunk's PT
3. Still has proper shadows that move with some light sources such as flames or candles instead of Cyberpunk PT which has completely static shadows in most cases\

[shadow heath]

Ok and? They aren't ray traced, don't move the goalpost

UE5 virtual shadow maps aren't RT either

[late vine]

whether it is RT or no RT, it looks better

That was my point

[gentle haven]

That was what it was about in the first place

[late vine]

and I still don't believe it is not RT

[shadow heath]

No the point is that people were trying to gaslight about it having RT shadows when it doesn't

[shadow heath]

lmao

[subtle flame]

Literally just click this link https://youtu.be/NbpZCSf4_Yk?si=k6ZqaOYKq7r3fO_Q&t=965 this is what we mean

[shadow heath]

Have fun here

[late vine]

because how can raster shadows look better than PT

Especially with moving objects

[gentle haven]

Maybe because cp puts shadows in a separate world

Essentially

Cp renders shadows seperatly from everything else

That is the reason shadows are static

[late vine]

I have yet to find a light source in Metro that doesn't cast proper shadows unlike in Cyberpunk where I couldn't play longer than 20 minutes without finding at least a few instances of objects not casting shadows

Either way, it doesn't matter whether it is RT or not (even though it obviously looks like it is)

in the end, my point was that it has better and more accurate shadows

[subtle flame]

Yup

[late vine]

Even the reflections, that are half screenspace half RT are barely worse than Cyberpunk's PT reflections. In cyberpunk a lot of details and lighting disappear in reflections when things go out of screen space

same happens in Metro, except they lose a bit more detail than they do in Cyberpunk

[subtle flame]

Metro's RTGI creates soft shadows when objects block light (Like all RTGI)

Also if you look at the link the "hard" shadows look insane if they really are only raster

Like PT levels ahead of the non-EE release

[late vine]

In Metro there are some rare instances where the light seems to be coming from nowhere or "leaking" but even in Cyberpunk PT this happens. If it didn't we would have no need for mods like GITS ReLIGHT

Honestly, I will take the "cons" of Metro's implementation over PT at this point. After 15 hours of Metro, I went back to Cyberpunk and I stopped after 45 minutes

I simply cannot go back to ghosting

[subtle flame]

Use RT+PT then like I do

Its a good enough compromise imo

Plus you can push res way farther

[late vine]

It is a bit too much of a compromise for me, especially the AO part that you can't get without post process shaders

For example Metro gets close enough to PT without compromising on AO

And going from 5760x3240 to 2227x1252 is rough 😭

I just wish we had more games with Proper RT

Imma go play some now see ya guys

[shadow acorn]

No it still uses SSR for reflections.

[shadow acorn]

No reflections are A LOT worse than cp77. Watch the Digital Foundry video on it from way back when. Reflections aren't good. They get visibly messed up when moving the camera up and down on water for example.

Still an amazing looking game though

[gentle haven]

Not really

They are half rt

[shadow acorn]

What do you mean not really? Watch the DF video. They might be half SSR sure

[gentle haven]

Yeah

That is what i said

[shadow acorn]

Half/full whatever. Point was it's not full RT. But i see you guys already went through all this above ha

[gentle haven]

Yeah

[shadow acorn]

Love how the game looks though. Aside from the fucked up luminance at night

Way too bright in some cases

Looks like day

[gentle haven]

Metro exodus is one of the most immersive games i have ever played

[shadow acorn]

Is there a mod that fixes that maybe

[gentle haven]

Dunno

[shadow acorn]

😦

[gentle haven]

There is a mod kit

But no one is using it

[shadow acorn]

Yea i Heard not much came from it

[minor smelt]

Exactly, what you are saying is totally not an opinion at all. ReShade shaders can be nice, but everything is done in screenspace with often some lacking info regarding depth and movement. This can make many ReShade shaders look odd. The opinion part comes in if you can overlook these issues or not.

[gentle haven]

It got released too late

[shadow acorn]

Haha yea wayyyyy too late

Also it's not really a game I'd consider very "moddable." It's not set up that way

Maybe texture mods

[gentle haven]

It could've been so good, but they fucked it up

[minor smelt]

Also have to agree with this; Nexus mods gets polluted with ReShade mods that are poorly worked out and YouTube flooded with "HDR" videos of non-HDR games, "RT" videos of games with no RT-support etc.

[shadow acorn]

I find it funny that W3 modkit is coming out/came out. Way too late on that one too

Who's still playing that game?

Lol

[gentle haven]

Yeah

[shadow acorn]

I beat it like 3 times 7 years ago

I'll never play again

[gentle haven]

And then next we getting cp modkit

In like 8 years

[shadow acorn]

Lol cdpr

[gentle haven]

(That's a joke)

I don't know if it is gonna happen

But it would be funny

[shadow acorn]

You mean RTGI shader videos? 🤮

[gentle haven]

And frustrating

[shadow acorn]

Yo mang, you wanna use RTGI, lose 70% fps, and make your game look worse?

[gentle haven]

It looks worse because they fuck up the settings