▫️Cyberpunk 2077 Ultra+ 2.13 Patch Patch Patch Patch

[hybrid violet]

like from non-PT

[late vine]

so the workaround is enabling cascades and global shadow?

with denoising?

[hybrid violet]

so when you remove Cascades and remove Global Shadow, all the stuff that interacts with the raster world, you have nothing blocking the direct raster light

so you get a lit world

theres something somewhere enabling this light

[late vine]

hmm

So just to make sure, I should enable cascades and global shadow?

Are they raster or PT shadows?

[hybrid violet]

raster is cascades

then Global Shadows does RT shadows using Cascades, weird code path

so its like, RT shadows is the best kind of definition

Global Light sadly, I dont think it'll be usable

next engine

[late vine]

It is what it is

Can't wait for Orion

Enabling SER gave me 1 fps lmao

with FG

so 0.5

maybe it was already enabled somewhere and was overriding the ini

[hybrid violet]

SER is situational

but it helps

[late vine]

yeah only tested it in 2 areas

Okay so I only started playing with v4.0 a couple days ago, just to make sure, PTNext is the best looking version?

on a 4090

In some older comments you said it was situational

but at High/Insane it is the best?

[hybrid violet]

I'd say so consistently

well in 95% of cases

this seems to cost a small bit of perf

weirdest effect

[late vine]

Can confirm, for me FPS went from 82 to 78 in a fairly complex scene

[hybrid violet]

when disabling or enabling?

[late vine]

enabling

[hybrid violet]

notice that specular highlight from the sun?

well wait

is that correct lol?

[late vine]

the sun reflection on the seat?

[hybrid violet]

yeah is it more accurate i guess to not have that

considering where the sun is

[late vine]

yeah I was gonna say

I will just keep it enabled

[hybrid violet]

the difference in like 99% of the image is 1:1

except, a small plant

top right corner

[late vine]

Also another plant towards middle left

a little to the top

yeah it is extremely minimal difference

[hybrid violet]

even here the highlight makes some sense

I think for High and below can prob be off for perf?

[late vine]

take a look at the plant right on the left from the bike

seems more "defined" with cascades

[late vine]

Yes but maybe keep on for High

Nobody is going to be using Insane even with a 4090 tbh

Unless they play at 1440p

[hybrid violet]

just cant see a diff

[late vine]

Me neither tbh

off topic but you uploaded this picture a couple days ago for comparison

This is PT2.1 Insane

Are these shadows really that bad in insane?

compared to ReGIR where they are crisp

What I mean is whether that is the intentional behaviour for PT2.1

Because ReGIR seems like a massive improvement if so

[hybrid violet]

Best way to tell would be to compare it to removing U+

But it did seem that way

Likely the denoiser not having enough data cause of the sampling

[late vine]

I am guessing Vanilla wouldn't be any better since it has even less samples

[hybrid violet]

Can help rule out a bug

[late vine]

true

by the way I am doing some testing between 2.1 and Next

found something

one min

PTNext High

PT2.1 Insane

look at the shadows behind the stairs

The shadows on PT2.1 only resolve if you look at them directly without the stairs obscuring your view

and even then, they are lower quality

I restarted the game and reloaded the save too so it is not something not applying correctly

PT2.0 has these shadows. Better than PT2,1 but lower quality than PT Next

[hybrid violet]

interesting here too

[late vine]

So Sammi was right, somehow PT2.0 is better than PT2.1?

[hybrid violet]

2.1

yeah 2.1 might need retuning

[late vine]

didn't even notice that

The shadows of the grate from the light shining from the upper floor does not resolve at all on PT 2.1

it is all there with ReGIR

The image is PTNext

[hybrid violet]

hmmm

got a partial idea why

        SetOption("RayTracing", "EnableGlobalShadow", true)                        -- TEST
        SetOption("RayTracing", "EnableLocalShadow", true)                            -- TEST```

these should be on across all PT/RT modes

[late vine]

lemme try

nope

nothing changes

It just doesn't resolve those shadows

[late vine]

in this example it did resolve them actually but still very soft and blurry

[hybrid violet]

EnableGlobalShadow these were changed in setmode.lua?

[late vine]

Nope, Ultra+

let me try

By the way

Here is one more thing

excuse the colors because I am using HDR

PT 2.1 Insane

PTNext

Light leak in PT 2.1 or more bounce lighting?

[gritty geode]

hey! welcome 😊

[late vine]

Hey! Thank you 🙂

[late vine]

Wait let me retry this because light is completely gone on PTNext

Gonna restart game

[gritty geode]

I wonder if increasing TracingRadius would increase global light shadows 🤔

[late vine]

I tried, it doesn't unfortunately

[late vine]

PT Next

[gritty geode]

yes, I'm hoping to have time to rework the logic around separate denoiser this weekend so hopefully this can't occur.

I'm also wondering if the separate denoiser is adding that broken shadow via what's called raytracing multilayer. in which case changing the multilayer size to something and then back again may reset it as well

we might be able to hack disable other raster/RT shadows by putting crazy settings in there

or it might be possible to set tracingradius to 0

I have to get dinner then I'll join in the testing

[late vine]

Have a nice meal, it is 2:20 AM for me so I think I will sleep in a minute lmao

[gritty geode]

yes imo PT21 looks good until you start really comparing things

[hybrid violet]

looks like broken direct light, try disabling separate denoising

[gritty geode]

okay np! it's nice that you've joined 😊

[late vine]

Thank you!

[late vine]

Yeah updated

[gritty geode]

I'm so tired we're ordering in... all the junk food lmao

[late vine]

That is what I have been doing last couple days because testing this stuff is addicting and it just ends up taking my whole day lmao

This is the main playground we have for path tracing in games

I love seeing how far we can push it

[gritty geode]

hahah. you will fit in here 😂😂

I really want to get global light working too

and NRD

[late vine]

Would be really amazing as it seems to be a big visual upgrade

[gritty geode]

lol rebrand it as Nvidia Enhanced Raytracing Denoiser. NERD

[late vine]

btw @hybrid violet could you confirm whether this is more accurate bounce lighting in 2.1 or rather a light leak?

[gritty geode]

this difference could be the ReBLUR light settings. it's nothing to do with ReBLUR but those settings control how bright the shadows/lights contrast are

[late vine]

is ReBLUR different between 2.1 and PTNext?

I thought they used ReLAX

[gritty geode]

[Editor/Denoising/ReBLUR]
HitDistanceRoughnessScale = 10.0                ; (20.0) WAS 10.0
HitDistanceRoughnessExpScale = -1.0                ; (-25.0) WAS -1.0

these ones

i change them to increase bounce lighting from the sun... but they may need to be altered for PTNext

[gritty geode]

reblur is the old denoiser (it only works wtih NRD and is generally inferior to relax, and i'm not sure it contains jitter information) ... but these settings seem to apply to all modes, despite their name

i'll show what they do

vanilla values (left) vs U+ values (right)

(it's a different lut in both these images too, but you get the idea)

[late vine]

Gotcha

From all my testing PTNext and PT 2.0 seem superior to PT2.1

I was very skeptical about PT 2.0 because PT2.1 has ReSTIR which is better but somehow it just looks bad

I mean PT2.1 looks bad in comparison

PT 2.0 Insane gets really close to PTNext but ReGIR + ReSTIR is just insane

[gritty geode]

yes, same

well, ReSTIR is better in theory if it's implemented fully and correctly ... but i think some of the settings we can't change are wrong

and naive + ReLAX was also implemented slightly wrong, but we were able to fix those settings

i know Digital Dreams (YTer) seems to have no problems with PT21 and is completely happy with it. but he's also running at 8k DRS which changes things a lot 😜

[gritty geode]

yup!

i also want to try regular RT with ReGIRGI 😂

we'll see how far i get tonight, i'm so tired i may fall asleep, or my children may want to watch a movie

[late vine]

No rush

Could you check out one last thing for me

https://imgsli.com/MjU3MTY0

put these images into slider

PT 2.1 seems to be lacking a lot of dark areas but PTNext seems a bit too dark

[gaunt hinge]

does increased resolution really result in better pathtracing/

[late vine]

yes because more pixels = more rays

[gaunt hinge]

v fair thank you

[late vine]

np

[gritty geode]

i'll have a look... is that the Raffen's hideout?

[late vine]

The cave where you find the Black Caliburn

Murkman

[gritty geode]

@gaunt hinge nvidia specifically discusses (in one of their articles, i can't remember) the challenges of using a temporal upscaler (DLSS) with a path tracing denoiser, and how, essentially because the denoiser has to do so much work, any problems tend to get magnified by the upscaler

[hybrid violet]

PTNext btw does have ReSTIR GI

also can boost GI in it by raising SHARC bounces to 4 from 2

[gritty geode]

i can't see any difference though with ptnext 😜

[subtle flame]

Hey guys, when using PTNext I get this weird thing at the top of my screen whenever looking downward. PT20 is just wayyy too ghosty for me so PTNext is essential for me. Has anybody else had this problem?

[gritty geode]

yes, it should go away if you load a save game a second time 😊 we're working on that one

heya 😊

[subtle flame]

Ah thanks for the tip! I noticed that it goes away when I disable separate denoising too.

I am also using RR. IDK if that is important or not

Reloading a save didn't work btw 😦

Might just rock RT+PT until PTNext is finished tbh since I am very sensitive to PT ghosting.

[agile zenith]

just my 2 cents after trying/reading countless things, real time Ray(path) tracing is in its infancy, it WILL give ghosting in its current state. The best way to combat it is by keeping your FPS high, and disabling NRD. Ray Reconstruction is to my knowledge the best way to combat it, but there is no ghosting free way yet. We will have to wait for nvidia to implement new code for this 😦

[late vine]

yeah I agree with this. The best way is keeping the fps as high as possible while also keeping the base resolution as high as you can. 144 base fps without framegen will have much much less ghosting compared to 60 fps with framegen (so 30 base fps)

But we gotta wait for the 5090 for that

[late vine]

Try the workaround I found. It is the only thing that made it go away for me

Here

Basically disable Separate denoising -> reload save with it disabled -> enable after reloading

Otherwise those shadows stay “burnt in” to your camera in that save file no matter how many times you restart or reload. Weird glitch tbh

[late vine]

Probably a dumb question but does anyone know how to disable vignette?

[subtle flame]

Use this https://www.nexusmods.com/cyberpunk2077/mods/13912 lmao

[gritty geode]

I'm not seeing any more ghosting with NRD, but it's not working properly in PTNext at the moment, only really PT20 and RT+PT

oops I fell asleep 😊

[late vine]

I saw that but I don't like the look of that HDR fix. It makes the game so dark in all 3 presets and makes it seem like there is no bounce lighting at all. I will take the slightly raised black levels and cap my in game max nits 200 below my actual max rather than that

@gritty geode are we sure that rainmap batch max size fix is not broken with 2.12 update?

I just tested between your value 8192 and vanilla 300 and Vanilla seems to be more consistent and better?

I checked some recent comments on the same mod from sousine and someone said they fixed it in the vanilla game so increasing the batch max size actually breaks the rain sometimes

[late vine]

Okay found something very weird

[late vine]

look at the top right side in PT Next

[late vine]

now look at it with PT2.1

The light is not casting light with PTNext

I messed around with settings and narrowed it down to UseHalfFloat

turning it off brough back the light

how are they even related

talking about the light here

[minor smelt]

From reading the term, it makes calculations less precise, which can result in difference in lighting

[late vine]

Okay so I enabled it again to see the difference, light disappeared as expected

but now when I turned it off, the light didn't come back

even after a reload and restart

lmao

So it might not be related

[late vine]

Found it

If you enable "Clear" under SHARC in Ultra+, the lights appear

it clears SHARC cache every frame

However it is extremely heavy

10% performance cost

and it doesn't fix all lights but most of them

check it out

the light only starts working once it is directly in your vision

[agile zenith]

i found that about 4 different things can turn the lights off 😄

[late vine]

which ones

[late vine]

@agile zenith ?

[late vine]

Okay I think I am done with testing fora while, I have barely slept the past couple days lmao

So after even more extensive testing I found out that PTNext resolves shadow detail and just overall detail much better than any other mode

However, there is a big downside that I am only starting to notice by switching between modes

That is, a lot of light sources are straight up not casting light

It is not the separate denoiser issue because I restart the game almost every time I change modes

[late vine]

This is the perfect example of what I mean and this issue occurs a lot in places like this

And when the lights do work, in darker areas there is much less indirect bounce lighting with PTNext and the only way to fix it is by enabling SHARC Cache Clear, which costs more than 10% of your fps.

Overall PTNext can be quite immersion breaking in darker areas lit by a few light sources, such as this cave in my example, or some hideouts and bases.

The lights either don't cast light properly, or don't cast light at all. Enabling SHARC Cache clear brings back SOME of the lights and the missing bounce lighting, but it takes away 10+ fps, and still doesn't completely fix it. Enabling it makes PTNext much heavier to run than PT 2.1. Oh and it also causes heavy flickering in some reflections so it shouldn't be turned on.

In conclusion, missing lights needs to be fixed and for the lights that do work, missing bounce lighting needs to be fixed. Aside from that, everything seems better with PTNext. However, this is not a small thing that can be ignored because it is very obvious when the whole room goes from brightly lit to pitch black when you turn away from the light.

Update: Disabling SHARC for PTNext also seems to do the same thing as enabling SHARC Cache Clear and brings back some lights and bounce lighting. Somehow, disabling SHARC also degrades performance. Shouldn't it be the opposite?

Either way, SHARC with ReGIR seems problematic

[real ravine]

sharc is a cache, so no

[late vine]

It also seems to introduce noise in some very rare instances compared to SHARC disabled where it is crisp

Should I disable it?

I can't find any reason to enable it except for higher fps. It destroys the indirect lightin in darker areas

[real ravine]

if there was a solution, it would be implemented already. the mod is in a beta state for obvious reasons xd

[late vine]

yeah I know ofc, I wasn't complaining, just giving feedback from testing

this engine is such a headache to work with, you fix something and something else breaks

never can have best of both worlds

only can slightly improve what is already there

[minor smelt]

Is this also your experience @gritty geode ?

[gritty geode]

no I agree, I don't think it's needed any more. I originally had it at 1024 and someone said they were having the dry ground problem, but I don't think I checked what version of the game they're on

[gritty geode]

it's certainly not required. the only reason to enable it is an attempt to save memory... half float vs double float uses half the vram is the only reason (but if it's implemented in the wrong places, it will reduce quality)

[gritty geode]

some of these are fixable

it may also be that SHaRC needs to be disabled, at least at higher qualities

[gritty geode]

no, SHaRC is a performance optimisation for RTXDI bounce lighting. but a) looking at the un-denoised (raw PT) image it doesn't look like it's implemented properly (it looks very different from Nvidias reference papers), and b) it may not be properly integrated with ReGIRDI. CDPR integrated it with RTXDI, but PTNext doesn't use RTXDI

[gritty geode]

yyeeeppp

[late vine]

could be, even though Nvidia advertises it as a direct upgrade to visuals, I found that it made pretty much no difference in most cases and when it does make a difference, it makes everything worse, at least with ReGIR at High/Insane.

[gritty geode]

Hogwarts and Robocop were pretty straightforward to fix compared to this. CDPRs engine is hack upon hack. it's trying to find that one golden pathway that works

[gritty geode]

this is my point. in CP it's improving the performance, but the visuals not as much (compared to NVs examples)

though it does upgrade the visuals a lot more in PT20

[late vine]

My first experience with this was pre-2.0 when DistanceBoost used to work and improve pop in but setting it further than 50 meters started making entire building blocks disappear and I realized that the code is being held together by thoughts and prayers

All it takes to break everything is increasing render distance by a few dozen meters lmao

[gritty geode]

yeah, they had a hard time implementing path tracing, and then upgrading it. I think they've done "well"... BUT... the root problem is that a lot of objects and lights aren't in the PT world space. initially it was faster to implement this way in 1.63, but now it's costing them and causing more and more problems as Nvidia has released upgrades. most of Nvidias updates have been deliberately low cost and easy to implement. but that's not the case in CP because NVidia isn't even considering "but what if you have some objects in raster, some in PT, and some in RT world spaces"

this is what's called a "technical debt" problem. it's now more costly to fix properly, than it would have been to do it properly in the first place

[late vine]

I really hope with Orion and Unreal Engine we won't have these issues.

[gritty geode]

the ideal solution to fix all of this, would likely be to edit all the assets to being them into the PT world space. idk if that's possible though

the closest I've seen is with BabaBooey's reLIGHT

UE has issues, but they are solvable. as long as the devs don't try and modify the streamer code and badly break it (Jedi Survivor)

[late vine]

At the very least it would be a more streamlined engine

[late vine]

GITS? It seems so cool but I never really bothered with it because I am scared it will fix some things and break a lot of others so I can't be bothered

[gritty geode]

I think we can see clues here as to why CDPR has chosen to go to UE. they clearly enjoy making great stories and worlds. they don't work on the engine unless they absolutely have to, and when they do it fixes some things and breaks others

[late vine]

I have weather mods and stuff as well so I don't think it would even work

[gritty geode]

they haven't even tried to fix the mesh offset problem that causes black on the trees, which is soooo obvious and been there since 2.0

[gritty geode]

I am only using the .xl files, not the archives. they're worth using

BB seems to have disappeared for now. I think it's worthwhile analyzing the assets (meshes, lights) he's changed in the archives to see if that can be done to more things

[late vine]

Which ones are the least likely to break things? Like which ones do you recommend

[gritty geode]

I would love to export all the assets, make a script to move them all into PT, and disable SSR blending and all these other hacks, and just use pure PT

[gritty geode]

all the xl files are fine. I'm not even using the "fixed" version, just his original

they shouldn't break anything at all.

in theory, "all" he's done is move many lights and assets into PT. they should also be quite easy to fix if we find problems

[late vine]

I'd love that, the game was advertised as pure Path Tracing and imagine my shock when I realize it was full of hacks. Same with Alan Wake 2 to be honest, they both use quite a bit of raster. We have yet to see a Full Path Traced AAA game

Btw GITS ENV BASIC xl files say game version 2.11 only

still good to go?

[gritty geode]

Alan Wake 2 afaik (I haven't played it) was regular ray tracing with path traced bounce lighting. basically RT+PT

[late vine]

But advertised as full Path Tracing

[gritty geode]

which isn't a bad thing. I think this is why RT+PT has been so popular. it's a very valid solution. it blends very mature RT multilayer techniques with PT GI

yes, well.... I mean based on that, Robocop Rogue City is full PT because it uses Lumen 🙄 (not)

yay it's raining 😊

[late vine]

Lumen isn't nearly as advanced as full hardware Path Tracing tho right?

[gritty geode]

use the xl files from the full env. yes just ignore that, it works fine

afaik, lumen is a very clever raster approximation of PT

[late vine]

Alright downloading now, these xl files bring more things into PT space?

[gritty geode]

I believe so

[late vine]

Yeah agree

[gritty geode]

i think PTNext can be cleaned up and stabilized for release. and then I want to look into whether we can move assets into PT

[late vine]

I can't wait for 2027 when Path Tracing will be easily playable at 4k by xx70 cards and we can finally leave raster behind

[gritty geode]

I can't say more rn, but there are some very exciting mods in the concept phase, and it will be worth it 😊

[late vine]

Oh I am looking very much forward to it

[gritty geode]

oh, PT is easily playable now! try some of Nvidias samples 😊

[late vine]

No I meant when it is available to the masses in full AAA games

and people stop calling it a gimmick for people with 4090

[gritty geode]

oh, yes 😂

actually lemme ask sosuine if he knows how to move things into PT

[late vine]

I might upgrade to 5090 if I can get my hands on one to see how much further we can push the PT in this game

CDPR single handedly carrying Nvidia's sales

I upgraded from RTX 2070 to 4090 just for cyberpunk

[late vine]

Is she still active?

RIS needs disabling for reLIGHT?

[gritty geode]

there are still options. we can also try to modify the PT shaders directly. personally I think the next steps are a) trying to solve PTNext bounce issues, then b) bring all assets into PT ... before looking at shaders

[gritty geode]

I think sosuine is male. yes

yes sosuine is still around, in the digital dreams discord. I just messaged him

[late vine]

Just wanna say thanks for all the work you are doing for the game, this is my favorite game of all time and I am like 350+ hours deep and still can play for another 350. I am really excited for what else you guys will do with PT

I honestly thought you guys would be done after v4.0 release

[late vine]

Yep, once the bounce issues are fixed and more assets are brought into PT, it will be perfect. And only after that we can see if we wanna keep pushing]

[late vine]

can I disable RIS from Ultra plus without GITS ini?

[gritty geode]

aw ty. well ty also for your testing and feedback. I've made a bunch of notes from what you've said above, things to change and test. and I'm hoping it's possible to fix PTNext

[gritty geode]

yup!

yes don't use RTXDIY

I wish I could have talked more with BB about why he made the decisions in his ini. I don't agree with them, but I'm sure if we had a proper conversation about it we'd all learn somethink

[gritty geode]

yes, hopefully sosuine answers. he's not one to use many words 😂

[late vine]

Yeah I checked them out, seems pretty similar to yours except he went overboard with some settings

[late vine]

Yeah I hope so too

I will play a little bit now before sleep. Took 2 off days from work and I have played a whole total of 0 minutes 😂

just testing

At this point i have memorized where every setting is in U+

[gritty geode]

yes and speaking with him, he doesn't care about fps. quality above all else.

[gritty geode]

I feel that 😂

honestly just turn on PT20 and enjoy I think 😊

[agile zenith]

the denoiser, and a few of those settings in the last tab can disable lights, but i think i was still testing it with RTXDIY installed, so that might be a reason too. Sorry i dont remember all the things that could turn it off (lights)

[gritty geode]

there's more than just those 😂

[late vine]

I bet lmao

Okay so i just played normally for 2 hours, did a few missions on PTNext Insane and was constantly on the lookout for any issues but there wasn't any. I think that although PTNext does have issues, they are smaller compared to PT 2.0 and 2.1. 99% of people won't notice any issues during regular play.

The game looks insanely good

There was one issue actually and it was that the fps started slowing down after an hour of playing. Restarted the game and my fps went from 60 to 75. Didn't happen again after playing for another hour

So I guess sometimes the game slows down after playing for a bit

Didn't seem to have any compatibility issues with GITS reLIGHT either but it is pretty new so gotta do longer testing on that and be on the lookout

[gritty geode]

okay, that's good!

yes there's someone posting in Posts at the moment of issues with PTNext, but i think they've found some of the few plaaces there are actually issues

(Judy's apartment is one ... it has issues in all modes)

[gritty geode]

that's running out of vram ... the engine maybe has a garbage collection problem?

this is also why i don't go too high with the precache / draw distance values, they make it happen more quickly

[late vine]

I have MSI Afterburner logging my entire playtime, the highest my VRAM went was 20.1 GB so still a few GB away from full

I changed the FakeGPU VRAM in the ini to 20 GB maybe that is why it stopped at 20?

and once it hit the cap it slowed down?

or is that not what that setting does

I also have increased the Pool Budget to 8 GB

I don't know what these settings do but I paid for the whole 24 GB Vram, I will use the whole 24 GB Vram 😂

[late vine]

Judy's apartment and that entire building in general has issues with lighting

Also, off topic but any idea if Enhanced Weather V6.0 (https://www.nexusmods.com/cyberpunk2077/mods/3901) could have any compatibility issues? It says it is not compatible with GITS but doesn't specify if it is compatible with just ReLight.

[gritty geode]

@real ravine if you have a moment could you please look at my reworked regir enablement method in beta10? i've hopefully simplified it so

• it only runs when var.settings.mode == var.mode.PTNEXT and is completely skipped for all other modes
• it will definitely run as soon as Game.GetPlayer() (previously i think there is a race where it could be skipped if Game.GetPlayer() wasn't immediately true OnInitialize)
• it disables UseForDI and EnableSeparateDenoising as early as possible OnUninitialize to ensure shaders are built
  https://github.com/sammilucia/cyberpunk-ultra-plus

it can possibly be a lot simpler, as we know i'm not a programmer 😜

feel free to decrappify any of the code if you feel so inclined 😂

[gritty geode]

it shouldn't 🤔. ooh they're using sky inscattering now. nice

[late vine]

Alright thanks

[late vine]

anything about this?

Would setting the Fake GPU VRAM as high as 22 GB cause any issues?

And what about PoolBudget? Or any other settings in the VRAM ini

which ones can I safely increase as long as I have enough VRAM

[gritty geode]

as far as i can tell, fakegpuvram is either completely broken, or sets the vram way higher than what it's supposed to

that's why i'm setting it to half

(simply because from feedback people seem to have a better experience with lower numbers ¯_(ツ)_/¯)

[gritty geode]

probably none of them 😂 but feel free to play

[subtle flame]

Hello guys, another question (or questions 😅 ). Since I am particularly sensitive to PT smearing, I have opted to just use RT+PT until PTNext is finalized. Any tips on the settings I should use in the Ultra+ menu or in the Cyberpunk settings? Is psycho ray-traced lighting worth it since I have extra performance on the table? Do settings like SHARC or RIS do anything for RT+PT? Right now I just have RT Reflections and Psycho RT Lighting on when using RT+PT.

[gritty geode]

i would definitely set

• RT reflections = on
• screenspace reflections = psycho
• RT lighting = psycho makes a bit of a difference but is worth it if you can afford it

i actually don't know how much sharc and RIS do with RT 🤔 ... it won't hurt to disable RIS and enable sharc i don't think

[agile zenith]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8WrTGKAzdLE

[late vine]

Judy is a bit different than I remember 🤨

[real ravine]

ofc boss 🫡

[agile zenith]

its the pathtracing

[real ravine]

something seems broken. right now regir is disabled for PTNEXT

[gritty geode]

I might have broken it in the latest commit 😏

[real ravine]

was it supposed to be be disabled for ptnext? i understood that it should be disabled for everything else except ptnext, right?

[gritty geode]

yes correct. maybe look at the beta09 commit?

it's suppose to when the game unloads, disable Editor/ReGIR/UseForDI and disable Editor/RTXDI/EnableSeparateDenoiser

and then once the player is actually in game, it should enable DI and separate denoiser after a brief delay

it was doing that a little inconsistently so I reworked the logic, but apparently badly 😂

(I had to go do work so didn't get to test) so maybe ignore my latest commit, I'm really just trying to get those functions working only for ReGIR and reliably

[late vine]

Figured it out, setting Fake GPU VRAM to a certain number doesn't let the game go too much over the amount of VRAM that you have set. Persistency Cache basically collects "garbage" like you said, but setting it higher helps a bit with pop in.

I didn't test too much though, so take it with a grain of salt. Could just be placebo

But I am playing with Fake GPU VRAM 22 GB and Persistency cache pool budget at 10 000 KB

no issues so far

[real ravine]

does Reblur disable the separate denoising?

it removes all the noise from the denoiser when enabled, but im not sure if it disables the denoiser or removes the noise

nvm, it actually removes the noise

[late vine]

Oh damn that sucks ig

I feel bad for them but I don't think they would care much considering the game is finished and they moved to a completely different engine

So when are we getting full path tracing

[gentle haven]

Would that be illegal though?

[late vine]

Yeah dunno about that

maybe

But leaking the code is definitely illegal and they could face prison sentence

[minor smelt]

Yes, even having this internal source code in itself is illegal

@real ravine I removed the video link as the video showed info on how to access it

See rule #5 in #📋welcome-rules-info

[shadow acorn]

@gritty geodeRemember the weird artifacts with rain? Where background objects look all aliased and weird? It's a vanilla issue. Ray Reconstruction fixes it. NRD just can't keep up i guess. Just a downside of NRD

[shadow heath]

What's the state of the mod currently in terms of improving upon maxed vanilla PT with RR?

[late vine]

If you use PTNext High/Insane, it is a noticeably big improvement over Vanilla and all other modes

[gritty geode]

@real ravine DM me?

[gaunt hinge]

ive yet to install the beta. i assume it is just as easy an install as the others is?

[gritty geode]

it's a lot easier, you can just drag it to your cyberpunk folder 😊 (if it's the one on nexus)

[gaunt hinge]

ooo thanks!

[gritty geode]

i'm trying EnableGlobalLight = true and ForceAllShadows = false and it seems to be working

[gritty geode]

or enablegloballight = false, enableglobalshadow = false

global shadow enabled (left) .... global shadow and global light disabled (right)

• with both disabled, a type of global cascade shadow is used, and vegetation shadows actually move
• however, the resolution of the global cascade can't be controlled
• (cascade graphics options and LOD settings don't make any difference - i didn't try a game reload)

the other problem is with global shadow disabled (right) you have this problem where objects that aren't in the PT worldspace (vending machines is one, for some reason) don't cast shadows properly

another issue ... global shadow enabled (left) ... the colour of the glass isn't considered. it's as if it's not there. it appears to be considered with global shadow disabled (right) ... you can immediately see the lower resolution here (this may be fixable), but it's also more accurate

here enable global Light is broken ... the characters and some objects are being lit twice

enable global shadow also enables foliage self-shadowing... possibly due to a higher resolution/sharpness

global shadow off (left) vs on (right) .... also in the left, i couldn't work out what caused the weird looking shadow "pole" thing coming from the bottom left

so in summary, here's what i think...

1. mesh deforms (moving foliage) aren't considered in global shadow
2. they are considered with global shadow disabled, which seems to be like a global cascade shadow, but probably only 4096 res (?)... or it could actually be a proper path traced shadow (i'm leaning towards this)
3. some objects aren't in the same worldspace as the global cascade shadow
4. global light seems to be an additional light source, which doubles light on objects, probably objects that aren't fully in the PT worldspace (vegetation, vending machines)
5. ideally, both global shadow and global light should be disabled, and then any assets/meshes not in the PT worldspace should be identified and moved into PT

[gentle haven]

Which mod already moved some items into PT? (In case I understood wrong: I thought you said this)

[late vine]

She said Gits is the one that comes closest

the .xl files from reLIGHT

[gentle haven]

But those just seem to delete a bunch of light.ent's and particles

[late vine]

As always, a lot of issues would be solved and Path Tracing improved if we could bring all the assets into PT

[late vine]

I am only saying what she said lmao

[gentle haven]

I understand, I just don't understand how that works

[late vine]

I have only the .xl files downloaded and haven’t had any issues in the past 5-6 hours of regular play

I go out of my way to look for issues too

Everything looks how it should

[gritty geode]

yes I think you do actually need the gits env

we need to look inside and see how its done. I would ask BB but he's MIA at the moment

[late vine]

as in, xl files aren’t enough or they make things worse?

[gritty geode]

and you were right @real ravine, it looks like my new code is correctly disabling separate denoiser and ReGIRDI, and it's detecting when the game is loading, but I think the command to detect when the player is in game is wrong. I also think it's a duplicates effort, since there is already the Detector function. so probably DI and separate can be enabled as soon as detector becomes active after OnInitialize?

[gritty geode]

I think they delete light blockers but they only do some of the work

my workload is crazy this week, I will probably only have a few hours through the week to unwind and test 😂

[late vine]

Still better than not having those files right?

[gritty geode]

yeah, I suspect the answer is inside BBs archive and xl files

[late vine]

Nah same here, I think right now the beta is stable enough for regular play. There are 3 main issues with PTNext but they are not major:

1. Bounce lighting in darker areas seems to be slightly less than PT 2.0 and 2.1.

2. Some objects aren’t in the PT space so somehow they don’t cast light with PTNext but work fine with PT 2.0 and 2.1.

3. The shadow burn in issue that can be fixed by disabling Separate Denoising, reloading save and re-enabling SD.

Everything else is a big improvement

1 and 2 are rare occurrences, and could definitely be fixed for the most part by just bringing more assets to PT space and 3 has a workaround that takes 1 minute to solve.

[late vine]

Do you recommend the archive files as well or could they conflict with some stuff? If I don’t care about anything else within GITS except having more assets in PT space, just xl files are enough?

[gritty geode]

they will conflict with weather and enb mods so just rename them to zz_ and it should work fine

[late vine]

Yeah I will use conflict checker to let the other archives win

[real ravine]

there's also the UseForDI being enabled in setmode, disabled again at init, re-enabled on game load. maybe you've tried it already, but doesn't toggling between raster and rt/pt trigger a full redraw from the game engine? maybe we can stop relying on this workaround. it's pretty hard to follow when things happen in multiple places and under specific conditions

[gritty geode]

it may, yes... that's a really good idea. IF CP doesn't crash by programmatically toggling raster / PT
... also I'm guessing the ReGIR code checks if the game is loading and builds the ReGIR grid... but it may not check in other circumstances like PT being enabled from raster. we can only try though

[real ravine]

maybe we can have everything ( including pt ) enabled before toggling rt on. something like:

• set rt off ( raster )
• enable regir + everything else
• pathtracing on ( before rt )
• set rt on

[gritty geode]

yes, that would be the way to do it. it would be amazing if it works

in theory even toggling just PT off and on may build the grid

[late vine]

Here is an issue I have noticed regarding the grid

Sometimes reloading a save will not correctly build the ReGIR grid

it is rare but happens sometimes

You have to go back to main menu, click on PTNext again (even if it is already set to PTNext)

and then load the save

[gentle haven]

what happens then?

[late vine]

Some lights don’t cast light properly

and ReGIR grid is very important for PTNext

But I have this happen maybe 2 out of 15 reloads

it is a rare bug

But just to be safe, whenever I want to load a save I always go back to main menu, re-enable PTNext and then load the save

takes a little longer but never had issues this way

and also sometimes Ultra+ will reset its settings

idk what is causing it

the settings on the “Rendering Options” (2nd) page

[gentle haven]

I have to re-enter those every time i boot up cyberpunk

[late vine]

For me it usually happens when I restart my pc

but sometimes it stays even after a PC restart

so idk

[gentle haven]

I always turn off my pc

[late vine]

oh okay

[gentle haven]

That might explain why it always resets

ah

[gritty geode]

yes, that's what we're trying to fix

I think it needs to disable separate denoising as early as possible, then enable it only once you're in game. there might be a timing problem

another way we could do it @real ravine if switching PT off doesn't work, is we can script

1. disable separate
2. script a quick save
3. script a quick load
4. re-enable

it would take longer of course

[late vine]

by the way you probably knew this but red conflict checker can show you what is inside archive files. I used it to check inside the GITS archive but it only seems to change the rain/weather and car glass reflections

I think reLIGHT.xl files are what changes the path tracing stuff

[gentle haven]

You can open them with wolvenkit

That is how i modify clothing items to look different

[gentle haven]

the xl files delete nodes

[late vine]

Oh I didn't know

[gentle haven]

it doesn't seem to do anything with path tracing

[gentle haven]

if you have them installed there is a switchy in the asset browser

[late vine]

Sammi said it seems to remove light blockers so maybe those are the deleted nodes

[gentle haven]

this one, image yoinked from the wolvenkit wiki

[gentle haven]

oh, that might be possible

[late vine]

Yeah the rest of the stuff is either LUT or just rain and weather related

and car glass reflections

[gentle haven]

i do like those

[gentle haven]

alright

[late vine]

same

[gritty geode]

I hope so... if the assets can be identified with AMM and added to an xl file this would be amazing

[gentle haven]

You don't need RedHotTools?

[gritty geode]

maybe... AMM doesn't identify everything

idk,I'm not an asset modder... engines come easily to me but not assets 😂

[gentle haven]

streaming:
sectors:
- path: your\path\from\red_hot_tools\ex_in_terior_99_99_0_0-streamingsector
expectedNodes: 999
nodeDeletions:
# this is a comment
- index: 0
type: worldNodeType

this is the code for xl files

don't know how to post it fancy like you do

[gentle haven]

This is an example

[late vine]

This shit way too complicated for me lmao

[gritty geode]

you can do 3 back ticks

and then another 3 at the bottom

[gentle haven]

ah

[gritty geode]

or you can do e.g.
```ini
to identify stuff in here is an ini, or lua, or js, etc.
```

[gentle haven]

i am not really an asset modder either, i just like doing research

[gritty geode]

StacysDadIsActuallyPrettyRad = true

[gentle haven]

        - index: 410
          type: worldTriggerAreaNode ```

yaya

[gentle haven]

this seems to be one of the things that gits deletes a lot

This is what the envcleaner file does

[gritty geode]

hmmm

right I know nothing about the node data structures 😭

but a good place to start I guess is bringing a vending machine into PT

also if everything was actually in PT, we can disable screenspace reflections blending

(id better get to sleep, I'll bbl 😊)

[gentle haven]

        - index: 250
          type: worldStaticLightNode ``` one of the other things it seems to do a lot

[gentle haven]

good night

[late vine]

I really hope this is not deleting actual lights from the world 😭

But from the mod page all relight seems to do is ADD lights

I mean that is literally what it is advertised as

[gentle haven]

that is what it seems to be doing,

[late vine]

But in all the comparison pictures, reLIGHT has more lights casting light

Ohhhhhhh I think I know what those might be

[gentle haven]

what?

[late vine]

Go check the mod description page, it removes some lights that makes stuff glow for no reason

such as the light passing through a door frame and illuminating the ground (the glow effect)

but there is no light on the other side of the door

So it is probably removing those glowing lights that come from no actual light source

[gentle haven]

yeah

probably

it also removes a bunch of particles, i am going to test it myself

[late vine]

Please let us know what you find

[gentle haven]

I don't understand however how he does this

[agile zenith]

https://www.nexusmods.com/cyberpunk2077/mods/10903 this one does it too i think

[gentle haven]

hmm, that one uses an archive again

[gentle haven]

So my guess is that the gits archive is what causes this

which is not important for what we want to do

i just wanted to know how

[late vine]

I don’t use the archive since it has glitchy rain

[gentle haven]

gits?

[late vine]

Only reLIGHT

[late vine]

yep

[subtle flame]

So he uses the archives to bring in stuff into PT but uses xl files to delete the fake lights right?

[gentle haven]

something like that it seems

can't check the archive right now though

I am not on an device which supports wolvenkit right now

[late vine]

I don’t recommend the archive

it is glitchy with rain

[gentle haven]

i can probably just break that part out

[subtle flame]

yeah its just the rain file though

[gentle haven]

?

elaborate

[late vine]

he probably means everything else is probably fine

[subtle flame]

it can be overwritten with something like this https://www.nexusmods.com/cyberpunk2077/mods/13477

His rain is based of Sousine's rain mod which has the same problem

[gentle haven]

That one might also have issues

i don't know never tried it

[late vine]

I use sousine’s rain mod but have had no issues?

[agile zenith]

he removed a lot of raster lighting, which maybe in the streaming sector or env files

[subtle flame]

Yes his most current but the one BB forked from is f*cked from what I remember

[late vine]

It costs more fps than GITS Rain but it doesn’t have the same bugs that I encountered with GITS

[late vine]

yup

[gentle haven]

alright.

[late vine]

he based it on sousine’s old version

[gentle haven]

Do you have more knowledge of .ent's? @agile zenith

[subtle flame]

Sousine had a bunch of people testing on GudMods discord to diagnose the problem

[agile zenith]

i think xl is used for world edits too, like make that prostitute light up, and the fast travel points light up

[late vine]

I think if you can take the fps hit (solid 5-10 fps loss though), sousine’s most recent version for rain fix is the best we have. Everything else seems to have too many bugs

[subtle flame]

The one on Nexus or GudMods discord?

[gentle haven]

Maybe, but you can't really add things via xl I believe (just based on reading, so correct me if i am wrong)

[late vine]

I use the updated version from Nexus

[agile zenith]

i merged several mods, and kept the gits rain, i have no issues with the rain btw

[agile zenith]

none, i am very much clueless about most things

but i spend quite a few hours analysing gits weather, streaming sectors etc

[gentle haven]

      expectedNodes: 147
      nodeDeletions:
        # light.ent
        - index: 21
          type: worldStaticLightNode
        # light.ent
        - index: 26
          type: worldStaticLightNode
        # light.ent
        - index: 27
          type: worldStaticLightNode ``` a portion of what it does, but it seems like it can just delete things (might just be understanding it wrong)

[gentle haven]

so you know more about .xl files?

[agile zenith]

nothing besides looking into them and realising they use the added streaming sector files within the gits archive

[subtle flame]

I need to get around merging AWV, Sammi's smoke mod, and GITS. They all edit the same things 😭

[agile zenith]

that is what i did 😄

and weather probability rebalance

o and nova lut

[late vine]

wait so the archive is necessary for reLIGHT.xl files to work?

[agile zenith]

most likely

[late vine]

what happens if you use just the xl files?

does it have fixes on its own or ?

[agile zenith]

i doubt everything will light up

[late vine]

yeah because it can’t access the archive, but does it do anything just on its own?

[subtle flame]

What about the GITS ini files? Did you delete those since Ultra+ is touching many of the same things?

[late vine]

those ini files are unnecessary with U+

I deleted them

[subtle flame]

Got it thanks

[agile zenith]

im currently not using ultra+ because of the quirks, but yeh i did both run them and not

[gentle haven]

I think it should fix some things just not all

[subtle flame]

Ok thanks. Might just drop AWV and Sammi smoke mod and just run GITS so I don't have to merge them lmao

[gentle haven]

How does it add things then?

[subtle flame]

I'll probably look into it later but I just want to play the game for once instead of testing mods lol

[gentle haven]

I am quite the opposite

I like diagnosing things more than playing the game

[subtle flame]

Usually I am too but I have never finished Cyberpunk in all this time playing. So I want at least finish the main quest and PL haha

[gentle haven]

Oh damn

Go get playing then

[late vine]

Oh damn rookie numbers

I am on my 4th playthrough

[gentle haven]

I am on my 2nd

[late vine]

Some weeks I end up testing the whole time, the other times I just can’t be bothered

[subtle flame]

I played a lot during release and then dropped it waiting for the game to be polished. Then finally got back on when 2.0 came out

[late vine]

I wish I had no knowledge of all these mods so I could just play the game and enjoy it without worrying about some random street light not casting proper indirect lighting 😭😭

[gentle haven]

I did buy it twice

[gentle haven]

Yes same

[late vine]

I am lowkey jealous of people who just download the game and finish it, never touching mods

they are missing out but also ignorance is bliss

[gentle haven]

Me in my 1st playtrough

[late vine]

same

[subtle flame]

SHARC PT RIS brainrot lmao

[late vine]

Back in 1.63 I only had one visual mod installed, Ray Tracing extra bounces and rays

[gentle haven]

PT is so amazing though

[agile zenith]

these road streamingsectors are found in relightthepave.xl so i think you need archive xl to edit the worldspace

[gentle haven]

I didn't even have ray tracing in my 1st

[late vine]

This game got me reading Nvidia research papers 😭

[gentle haven]

Oh yeah, that one works differently

[gentle haven]

Same

[subtle flame]

Getting distracted for 2 hours halfway during a mission to make sure the PT scene lighting is okay

[late vine]

ReGIR, ReSTIR, SHARC like bro

[gentle haven]

I mostly get distracted by weird RR shenanigans

[late vine]

FELT

Sometimes I literally stop in the middle of a story missing and I am like “hold up, is that light casting properly?”

[gaunt hinge]

iii am getting,

do i have to delete the graphic settings ini to get it to work or. ive tried reinstalling cyberengine already

and ultra+ obvs

[late vine]

4 reloads and different settings later I realize it was indeed correct the first time and I just need to go outside more to see how light behaves

[subtle flame]

Takes 50 comparison screenshots with different PT settings and mod combinations

[gentle haven]

When i am outisde i constantly looks at how reflections Bounce and light bounces

[late vine]

and the final image is maaaybe 4% better looking after 7 hours of testing

[gentle haven]

Constantly calculating how

[late vine]

We all are the same

[gentle haven]

Yes very sad

[late vine]

I am looking at reflections and shit

To see if cyberpunk did it right

could this be autism? 😭

[agile zenith]

is this a MO specific failior ?

[agile zenith]

literally everyone is on the spectrum

just a matter of how many boxes you tick

could be obsessive compulsive behaviour too

which kinda overlaps with autism

[late vine]

I am 99% sure I have this because I have like 50+ mods installed and I kid you not I have to go through a 20-30 minutes long checklist before I play to make sure everything is working right

every time I play I do this

[agile zenith]

haha

[late vine]

Even if I changed nothing from last time

I blame bugs like Ultra+ resetting my settings on its own

[agile zenith]

touching grass is a meme, but it does help to avoid these things 😉

[late vine]

It made me paranoid

[agile zenith]

honestly if its not getting in the way of your personal life, i would classify it as passionate about a thing

the japanese have a word for this kaizen

[gentle haven]

yes

[gentle haven]

Don't think so (I have autism)

[late vine]

Nah it doesn’t, I just have to assign 20-30 minutes extra to my play time every day just to check everything beforehand

even if I wouldn’t notice the difference probably, just the fact that something could be not working properly doesn’t let me enjoy the game

[agile zenith]

there are like 4 different types of autism

[gentle haven]

i know

I have been informed expansively

But i do not believe that is autism

atleast not only that

[gaunt hinge]

shouldn't be launching with mod organizer at all, actually

[subtle flame]

BTW is there any issue using GITS with 2.12? It says 2.11 only on the mod page

[gentle haven]

if there are more symptoms it may be righ

[gentle haven]

wut

[agile zenith]

likely not compatible with 2.0 or 1.6

[late vine]

Why are you not casting shadows

[gaunt hinge]

lmao

[gentle haven]

Mo2 causing issues?

[gentle haven]

Good question

is that dogtown?

[late vine]

ye

[subtle flame]

Ok thanks. BB disappeared and hasn't updated in a while

[gentle haven]

Big vram usage

[gentle haven]

i have not seen any

[late vine]

I am curious what you guy’s average VRAM Usage is during play

[gaunt hinge]

is it a VRAM issue? i have a 4090

[gentle haven]

13 gigs

[agile zenith]

over 24 GB -.-

[gentle haven]

on an 12gig card

[subtle flame]

Use all of my 12 gigs on my 4070 ti 😦

Thankfully no stutters

[late vine]

How? I have every single texture and LOD mod on their highest extreme 4k preset and I average 19-20 GB

[subtle flame]

When using PT

[agile zenith]

yeh don't use this one, unless you like massive stutters

or maybe use it on a completely new save with no other mods

[gaunt hinge]

i dont min the stutters. i think the tradeoff is worth it since i only use the texture mod, really

[agile zenith]

lod mods, traffic/pedestrian increase 4k resolution

[gaunt hinge]

but yeah you're right it was mod organizer making it not work

which is weird

[late vine]

Ahh okay I don’t use traffic or pedestrian mods

I am already cpu limited lmao

[subtle flame]

This is why I use Vortex for non-Bethesda games

[agile zenith]

its multiplicative, so it adds up fast

[late vine]

My 4090 never goes past 94-95% usage with a 5800x3D

I need a better CPU

[agile zenith]

i run the same setup and i am 99% of the time gpu limited

[late vine]

On youtube I saw that 7800x3D is almost a 10 fps improvement over 5800x3D even at 4k

for cyberpunk PT

[late vine]

Only in dogtown or the heaviest parts of city center, the rest it sits at 95%

[agile zenith]

that might be on a vanilla game 10 fps is a useless metric though, but 15% would be worth an upgrade imo

[gaunt hinge]

okay now im getting

[subtle flame]

I have a 7800X3D but I am usually VRAM bottlenecked when playing heavily modded games because of my 12GB 4070 Ti 😭

[late vine]

Yeah modding is the real VRAM killer

[gentle haven]

Sammi noted something about this earlier

[subtle flame]

Nothing matters more than VRAM on modded Bethesda games

[gentle haven]

try reloading

[agile zenith]

different thing i think, this looks UI related

[late vine]

yeah it was like 10-15% difference on vanilla Path Tracing

[gentle haven]

oh wait

i know that issue

@gaunt hinge do you have renodx installed

[gaunt hinge]

hmmm

yes

its when i hava gamma correction set to alwyas im noticing

[gentle haven]

Yeah that one breaks

I have noticed that too

[late vine]

use menu only

[gaunt hinge]

it wasnt breaking before, that's so strange

[late vine]

I also don’t use RenoDX, I prefer the ACES Tonemapper with some tweaks

[agile zenith]

where on the map is this btw?

[subtle flame]

Yeah use menu only and LUT correction to fix some some of the raised blacks instead

[gentle haven]

it looks like dogtown

[late vine]

dogtown, somewhere on the ground next to the pyramid

[gentle haven]

YES, i knew it

[late vine]

it is weird because the others are casting shadows

just not this one

So it is not the asset itself but rather this specific one

[gaunt hinge]

we're using PTNext and Insane, yeah?

[late vine]

ye

I found it to be the best looking one

[gaunt hinge]

also performs really well

[subtle flame]

Are you using the latest Ultra+ from github?

[late vine]

After 20+ hours of testing with PTNext this week, these are the main 3 issues with it

[subtle flame]

Or beta 9 from Nexus

[late vine]

Beta 9 but I have customized it to my liking

[gaunt hinge]

im personally using the one from the nexus, should check out the github

[gentle haven]

Keep using beta9

[late vine]

nexus beta is the stable version

github is more experimental

[subtle flame]

I think GitHub has some issues for now

[gentle haven]

There were some issues with beta10

[subtle flame]

Read a little up from earlier

[gaunt hinge]

word

[subtle flame]

yeah

[gaunt hinge]

thank you!

[late vine]

Guys you think 5800x3D would bottleneck a 5090?

I wanna upgrade but I don't have money to build an entirely new pc

[subtle flame]

Honestly maybe with how much simulation games are getting in next gen games

[late vine]

I am thinking of selling the 4090 and upgrading to 5090 if it is like 50% faster

[gaunt hinge]

if the rumors are true that its 2.5x stronger in RT, ill honestly

probably just upgrade to a 5080

[subtle flame]

Especially huge modlists and upcoming PC-centric games

[late vine]

The sad part is even if it is 10x stronger, nothing takes advantage of it

only cyberpunk mainly

[gaunt hinge]

yeeeah. that's true

[late vine]

We are sooo held back by consoles and AMD

[subtle flame]

Like the Star Citizen campaign that is coming out is probably gonna hammer the CPU wayyy more the the GPU

[gaunt hinge]

in warcraft, im hesitant to kick it on but like. warcraft is CPU primarily

[subtle flame]

100%

[gaunt hinge]

and its only shadow anyway

[late vine]

I am actually excited for that

I spent like 80 bucks on it years ago

waiting for it to release in my lifetime hopefully

perhaps I am a bit too optimistic

[gentle haven]

How do you have so much money

[gaunt hinge]

lmao

[late vine]

job

[subtle flame]

Me too haha. That's why I invested in a full AM5 7800X3D platform upgrade instead of going for a 4090

[late vine]

I am an engineer

[subtle flame]

I'll probably pick up a 5080 later this year for better PT and more VRAM

[late vine]

If 5080 is even 20% faster than a 4090

would be huge

[gaunt hinge]

i mean. im going for a 9800X3D, tbh

im hoping they don't wat to drop them this time

[late vine]

I wanna go 8800x3D with 5090

[subtle flame]

I am fully expecting that SC campaign to be CPU perf nightmare at release

[gaunt hinge]

i thinkkkk the next desktop line is the 9000 series?

yeah it will be

[late vine]

i am already getting 30 fps in that game, there is no way they are going to optimize it that much

[agile zenith]

i am waiting on the AI Tensor powered 6969, so i can pair it with the intel 4.20 Thz flux capacitor

[subtle flame]

Well with the single player campaign you won't have to mess with multiplayer stuff hogging the CPU

[late vine]

Nah the nvidia DLSS 5.0 where the game is not actually running, the AI fantasizes it and connects directly to your brain

[gentle haven]

Ah

[late vine]

can't wait for Intel's next gen CPU that uses 650 watts

literally the only reason I changed to AMD for CPU

[subtle flame]

That's why you go with AMD X3D chips sipping 50 watts during gaming loads

[late vine]

oh for sure

never goes above 80 watts during gaming

[subtle flame]

Running it in my tiny ITX case

yeah

[late vine]

But I wish AMD got its shit together with GPUs man

their strongest $1000 GPU trading blows with a 4060Ti in Path Tracing

[subtle flame]

Intel will before AMD does, trust. Just look at their AI and RT performance already

[late vine]

I think so too

[gentle haven]

Before all of this happens we are first gonna need more pt games

[late vine]

We need the competition because 5090 is for sure gonna be $1800-2000 at this rate

[subtle flame]

XESS > FSR any day + better RT

Intel is gonna release their new gen of cards soon too

[late vine]

For sure. I wish but obviously devs don't wanna waste resources catering to the Top 5% of the PC player base

[subtle flame]

Its just gonna take a while before they compete at the high-end

[late vine]

vast majority of PCs have never even experienced PT

[subtle flame]

Which is why Nvidia sponsoring as many PC games as possible is so important lmao

They have $ to dump for "Next Gen" PC features like PT

[late vine]

Currently from Steam Hardware survey, 4090 + 4080 + 4070 Ti users make up less than 3% of players all together

So yeah 97% of people have no clue how good games can even look

[subtle flame]

When AMD sponsors a title it means mediocre RT or no RT at all in 2024 💀

[late vine]

They watch a 1080p low bitrate youtube video with cherry picked examples to make raster look better and they go "yup, this is nvidia scam gimmick"

[late vine]

No no wdym, it has ray traced shadows and reflections. Except the reflections are 480p, and shadows are only ray traced within 5 meter radius of the player character and only limited to 5 objects

meh, it is what it is. I bought the 4090 for cyberpunk only and I don't regret it because I am on my 4th playthrough and genuinely feel like I can do at least 2 more. I got my money's worth

Would be nice if there were more games like it

Alan Wake 2 uses RT + PT (as SammiLucia also confirmed) so that doesn't even count

[subtle flame]

Yeah with tons of baked lighting too

[late vine]

with static environments and lighting since there is no day/night cycle

And you will see people saying it is more impressive than cyberpunk

[subtle flame]

Honestly RTX Remix is gonna be huge for the classics when more of those mods start to release

[late vine]

yeahh

anyways i am gonna play the game a little now, nice chat

[gaunt hinge]

the half life 2 RTX remaster im excited for

[subtle flame]

Portal has better PT than Alan Wake 💀

[subtle flame]

yesss

[gaunt hinge]

something about this looks

[late vine]

sameeee

[gaunt hinge]

off

lmao

[subtle flame]

Anyway same see ya guys later

[late vine]

What the hell lmao

I had this with Alt sex scene

she was black

I thought I was tripping

[gentle haven]

Damn, racist😂

[late vine]

I had to look up on youtube to see whether she was white or black

[gentle haven]

What the hell

[late vine]

I forgot lmao

I didn't know if it was the PT acting up

[gaunt hinge]

somethikng was off with the settings, there we go

LMAO

i had to hit PTnexdt again

[late vine]

I recommend you do it everytime

[gaunt hinge]

hes no longer plastic its okay

[late vine]

Idris Elba romance when

[gaunt hinge]

god please

i do love that man

[late vine]

Replaying PL right now

gonna get back to it

see ya guys

[gaunt hinge]

have funnnnn

[gentle haven]

Bya

[agile zenith]

you can use AMM to swap the models from one character to another, so romance river and swap his apearance to reed's

[gentle haven]

Or you can use lizzies braindances mod for more immersive way

[minor smelt]

Quite logical honestly: Alan Wake is a much more complex game with larger worlds and much more complex geometry. To have path tracing, you have to cut more corners with Alan Wake 2 to get something remote to good performance than for example Portal.

[hybrid violet]

The next set of technologies for ReSTIR + new hardware is going to be a whole new PT experience, the big question is what will be the showcase title

[gentle haven]

I do hope its gonna be available to 40 series

[hybrid violet]

It’ll have to be, but where I think the 5000 series will improve is what can be done on the first resolve, reducing the need for accumulation and as such improving it’s temporal properties

[late vine]

Cyberpunk is much more complex but they didn't cut as many corners as Alan Wake though.

[minor smelt]

Doesn't Alan Wake actually feature more complex geometry? And doesn't Cyberpunk also cut major corners, like only really using PT short-distance from the player?

[late vine]

Unless by complex geometry you mean texture quality, then no. Cyberpunk has wayyy more objects for light to interact with in any given scene than Alan Wake 2 does. I have played it twice myself. And Alan Wake 2's PT is limited to like 20 meters away from the player. It is a common complaint that you can see the RT Shadows popping in right in front of your eyes. Cyberpunk's Path Traced reflections, even in Vanilla, trace 2000 meters

and so do the shadows

And leave all this aside, Cyberpunk uses ReSTIR, while AW2 uses naive bounces/rays

and it has 3 bounces

[minor smelt]

No, I meant the complexity of objects themselves.

[minor smelt]

You're sure of that latter statement? Because in PT-footage, I can still see the GI stream in clearly when you drive around like how it does with RT disabled

In Cyberpunk I meant

[late vine]

Okay I might be misremembering how it is in Vanilla, I haven't played Path Tracing without enhancements in months

I have the tracing radius set 5x higher than vanilla

[minor smelt]

Then the comparison might be a bit unfair

[minor smelt]

Well, was honestly talking about vanilla AW2 vs. vanilla CP2077

[late vine]

true, but in the end, a path traced game where you can customise the PT with mods, is going to age far better than the game where it is only what the devs have set up

[minor smelt]

Both games still cut major corners, because full path tracing is simply not achievable if you want a framerate even remotely playable

On hardware of this time I meant

[late vine]

I agree

[minor smelt]

But that is not the dev's fault. Just that CP has a larger mod community and modding tools compared to AW2.

[late vine]

For example, when AW2 released, Nvidia didn't have ReSTIR implementation in any game, so it is basically still using Path Tracing that is equal to Vanilla PT 2.0, except with 3 bounces instead of 2

Now we have ReSTIR in cyberpunk and have even modded in ReGIR

[minor smelt]

what is the average performance you get now on what upscaler and resolution settings with this increased PT-ratio, and on what hardware?

[minor smelt]

AW2 is still receiving updates and DLC, so who knows. Maybe Remedy will update the path-tracing aspects over time.

[late vine]

RTX 4090, 4k DLSS Balanced, PTNext (my own custom mix of High and Insane preset). Built in benchmark averages 80 fps, heaviest areas in city center and dogtown 60-65 fps. Not-so-heavy parts of the city center 70 fps. Badlands 90-100 fps

Frame Gen on

Outside of Dogtown and city center it is basically 70-80+ fps

[gentle haven]

How did you increase it?

[minor smelt]

so, are your FPS-numbers then with or without FG?

[late vine]

With ofc, without FG I get 45 fps

[minor smelt]

That sounds much more like a number I would expect.

[late vine]

Tracing radius in one of the ini files. I also have the Reflection Tracing set to 8 km instead of 2 km vanilla

And shit ton of LOD and draw distance mods to the point I basically have zero pop in unless I drive at max speed and focus very far ahead

Vanilla Cyberpunk is borderline unplayable with all the pop in

[late vine]

Pretty impressive considering how much better it looks compared to vanilla

Without any mods I get 60 fps with same settings but without FG

90-100 with FG

but I would rather play at lower fps and my game look so much better

I also play with a controller so there is basically no noticeable input lag with FG even when my fps drop to 60-70

Imo people who say you need minimum 60 fps base fps to turn on FG are either delusional or have never used FG themselves. It is very playable even when base fps is as low as 35-40

[minor smelt]

Yeah, so much is possible with mods, but also understand CDPR; many people just crank up the settings always to max. So, if they would include the options you mention in mods by default, they would get nagged on by many users for the game being "unoptimized"

[gentle haven]

True that

[minor smelt]

But very good that for beast-hardware like yours and mine, mods are available to unlock its full potential

[minor smelt]

You likely don't mean it this way, but still; respect other people's views.

Both AMD and Nvidia themselves have stated that FG works best at 60+ FPS; then it has the best information to create new frames in a very smooth manner

Under that can result in stuttering and more artifacts

[late vine]

Yeah I definitely get that. People like their egos stroked so if the Ultra settings actually unlocked the games full potential and you could only run it on 4080/4090, and the previous ultra settings were labeled as "High", people would scream unoptimized.

[late vine]

there is a difference between saying it works best at 60+ fps vs saying it is unusable below 60 fps. It is very much usable even at 30-40 base fps, the tradeoffs just become more apparent at lower fps. It is the same with DLSS upscaling, technically, it is best used at 4k and I can't stand how it looks at 1440p or below. But nobody says DLSS is useless outside of 4k. You know what i mean?

I wish all games had "Insane" graphics preset like the Avatar game with its hidden "unobtanium" settings that brought even 4090s to its knees.

Would help games age better. Basically futureproofing it with graphics settings only meant for the future hardware

[minor smelt]

Yes, but nobody official said it was unusable below 60

If it is in practice for users depends on opinions

[agile zenith]

I think the future of gaming, both "pathtracing" and a lot of physics will be done by AI filters, which enhance the visuals on the fly. I think this is way less compute intensive and will give the best results. Comparable to real time instagram filters in a sense. Where you can play old games, and have them be enhanced on the fly with AI. It won't even take all that long anymore. One maybe two years. I honestly think that the hardware that runs gpu's now is going to chance significantly. A bit like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50zDDW-sXmM

[minor smelt]

Oh god, I hope not

[agile zenith]

why not?

i mean the base game is there, gameplay doesn't change, just make visuals, physics, animations smoother/better with the help of ai

[minor smelt]

But what you describe is more of a Instagram filter...

And do you know how heavy it is too run an AI locally?

[agile zenith]

i mean i can search all the other ai generated techniques, but its going to take me 30 min or so lol

there are specific chips that do AI work for almost no power

[gentle haven]

Can anyone point me towards this vending machine?

[agile zenith]

compared to a 400+ watts gpu they sip power

[minor smelt]

AI currently makes many assumptions and errors and cannot really interpret things. So, probably will be unusable for your named purpose for many years

[agile zenith]

well i would love to make a bet with you

[minor smelt]

But purchasable for the average consumer in the next decade for a reasonable price?

[agile zenith]

nvidia isn't really a GPU company anymore, they go heavy into AI processing, and their chips are designed for this purpose. Same already with the 4000 series

[minor smelt]

Nah 😂

[agile zenith]

their main business is AI now

[minor smelt]

Doesn't mean it will be remotely ready for customers in the next 5 years or so

[agile zenith]

i think you know very little about this subject 😉

even china is trying to gobble up every consumer 4090 they can get their hands on for ai

[minor smelt]

I meant AI -dedicated hardware, not the specific accelerators in their GPUs

[minor smelt]

Nah, just have a different opinion on this

[agile zenith]

well the facts don't really care about your opinions 😄

no offense meant btw

but current gpu's already have way more horsepower than is needed while not even being purpousfully build for these tasks

the training of AI models is the hard part

they use server parks for this, same as DLSS, but the model runs perfectly fine on consumer level gpu's

[minor smelt]

You're also just presenting your view/opinion of what the future will hold for consumers ..

[minor smelt]

While still being very limited in what it can do in the end...

In my opinion at least

[agile zenith]

its an objective fact that current gpu's can do a lot of what is needed for this already

and yes i am of the opinion that it wont take long for us to be able to play these type of games

anyways im not here to have an argument

[minor smelt]

Hope it will be within a few GPU generations, but could also be more, who knows how steady it will advance.

[agile zenith]

https://youtu.be/Y9cwnHor8es?si=gJ0beju1kb73HPfq&t=370

like these things already run on current gpu's

stamped

[gentle haven]

Or could someone explain how i would see if something is porperly in pt

For the holograms he just added a light

I don't understand where the streaming sectors are being loaded

[agile zenith]

i don't think anyone in this thread actually knows

https://discord.gg/redmodding

that would be your best bet, if you can find some helpful people that is

though sammi said she might look into it too

[gentle haven]

The doors seem to include a light for some reason

which gits relight deletes

imma see how he does the windshield

alright

so basicly for the windows he toggles useinfog and usintransparent a bunch

[agile zenith]

ignore the windshields those are for different things

[gentle haven]

eh?

What do you mean

[agile zenith]

they are for actual 3d glass + some reflections

[gentle haven]

i know, i was checking if the same things can be used for other objects

[agile zenith]

you where looking to make things be affected by pathtracing

[gentle haven]

indeed

I was just seeing if that trick can be used to do that

[late vine]

You will be the GOAT if you manage to start moving assets into the PT space.

[gentle haven]

"useInGI": 0, there is also this toggle in the assets

don't know what it does

[late vine]

use in global illumination

probably moves them into PT if enabled

[gentle haven]

yes but how does it work and does it work

imma see with folliage

[agile zenith]

https://www.nexusmods.com/cyberpunk2077/mods/9381

i think analysing this mod will be better

[gentle haven]

I believe it just makes hair 2 sided

But i will check

[late vine]

should be pretty simple to test. find a random object not in PT space (missing shadows or lighting), try that line on that asset

check if it works

dunno tho, I couldn't do it

[gentle haven]

Yeah, gonna disable global shadows and check folliage

[late vine]

But should be simple enough for someone more knowledgable

[gentle haven]

I am not though

I don't even know where folliage is located

I am just comparing things and looking in the archives

[gritty geode]

I don't think the rain batch size should be increased so much in PT. these things just cause fps problems with PT

[gritty geode]

yes I need to make a fog/particle mod without the envs for Cyanide too. sorry I'm super slow atm

[gritty geode]

lmao my husband plays completely oblivious to how the game looks. sometimes I find him playing a game at 15 fps 😂

[real ravine]

mmm yes, frames 🤤

[gritty geode]

do we... do we all have ADHD 😂

[gritty geode]

yeah I'm like darling do you want me to fix that for you and he's like mm? fix what? .... oh to be so blissfully unaware 😂

[gritty geode]

yes I agree. I keep thinking a neural network is actually much better suited to path tracing because it is essentially basic a holographic network. if a scene can be held inside a 3D neural network, it can be "traced" with reflections, shadows, lights, etc. effectively immediately... "path tracing" is very wasteful because you don't know which rays will return to the camera until you trace them. in a purpose built neural network, all neurons are indirectly connected to all others, so they can focus on the paths that are meaningful without wastage.

[agile zenith]

this setting get enabled on another mod that puts back ray traced shadows for clothing

[gritty geode]

okay so there is a RT flag!!

[gentle haven]

Hmmm, interesting

[gentle haven]

There is also a useingi flag

[gritty geode]

brilliant!

hmm okay. can you see what flags are set on some vending machines?

I'm wondering if CDPR repurposed one or more of these flags for whether something is in PT worldspace

[gentle haven]

Btw guessing by the shadows in the picture you made, it seems just the screen is not included

[gritty geode]

(maybe GI?)

[agile zenith]

these things get altered too

[gentle haven]

That might be the 2 sided part

[agile zenith]

souisines work

https://www.nexusmods.com/cyberpunk2077/mods/13772

[gritty geode]

this is actually one of the smartest AI implementations I've seen, because it's not monolithic. most of the problems with neural networks stem from the fact they are one big neural network, instead of several smaller task-specific networks

[gentle haven]

Btw it is easier to compare 2 exported Json's

You can just use a tool to see the changes

[agile zenith]

dont ask me man, i am a complete novice

[gentle haven]

Just figured it out myself

[agile zenith]

i knokw manualenhancer is pretty knowledable in jsons

[gritty geode]

if we work this out it will probably be easiest to just export all the assets to json, modify them with a script and reimport, too

[gentle haven]

Don't know if you can import json's though

[gritty geode]

hmm

[gentle haven]

And also don't know if you can export entire assets

[gritty geode]

we could invite him to the party 😂

[gentle haven]

I just exported the components

[gritty geode]

@jade ridge do you know this stuff? wtf are we doing?