i have a semi team but i also pug
#guardian
lucid arrow
daring nymph
I pray bear gets nuked
trim plaza
This, hard this
lucid arrow
bro you are way too attached to your spec being your entire personality
if people playing it first time cus its good and easy
odd cave
to prove that claim is actually rocket science though, if you are gonng claim mangle > moonfire there needs to be math to be back it up
lucid arrow
makes you wish it was 'nuked
shut jasper
the point is the gain in beam uptime is much much higher than the gain in incarn uptime and that makes it generally better, but sometimes the later is still preferable if you need it for a specific pull
lucid arrow
so people can GET OFF MY SPEC
daring nymph
makes you wish it was 'nuked
Ya cause fotmers are legit the worst type of player
And like
still locust
makes you wish it was 'nuked
I want the game to be balanced
lucid arrow
Ya cause fotmers are legit the worst type of player
deal with it, its a video game and people like to have fun not tie their identities with their specs
blame blizz
daring nymph
to prove that claim is actually rocket science though, if you are gonng claim ma...
There is math
lucid arrow
for making obvious fotm choices
daring nymph
There is also
still locust
Some people hyperfixate on being THE BEST SPEC IN THE GAME WHY NERF US WHEN WE'RE JUST OVERPOWERED???
daring nymph
Log reviews showing its usefulness
lucid arrow
and log reviews showing also its not usefulness
so which one
of the two
is correct?
sudden peak
literally doing more dps than dps
and people said bear was unplayable when they got the (needed) nerf
lucid arrow
maybe you can say both, but if you're saying mangle only is correct you need some other data
still locust
and people said bear was unplayable when they got the (needed) nerf
We've been nerfed 4 times
And we're still a top tank
daring nymph
and log reviews showing also its not usefulness
All I saw was a bunch of logs with a bunch of useless uptime on lunar beam
sudden peak
We've been nerfed 4 times
trust me I know
daring nymph
Cause it’s being casted when mobs are about to die
lucid arrow
All I saw was a bunch of logs with a bunch of useless uptime on lunar beam
All I saw was a bunch of logs with a bunch of useless uptime on incarn
Cause it’s being casted when mobs are about to die
trim plaza
I play vdh, bear, and paladin
Bro, is aldrachi playable for vdh?
daring nymph
So
still locust
Cause it’s being casted when mobs are about to die
Show proof?
Instead of throwing a bad argument
trim plaza
F
still locust
"it goes both ways" only works when it ACTUALLY goes both ways
lucid arrow
there is no proof, i made it up
trim plaza
Then im not gearing vdh
still locust
there is no proof, i made it up
daring nymph
there is no proof, i made it up
That’s funny
still locust
I know
daring nymph
I didn’t make my claim up
sudden peak
Then im not gearing vdh
nah do it its fun
daring nymph
We’ve just discussed logs
still locust
It's funny
shut jasper
there's similar wasted beam uptime on the logs with less casts
sudden peak
vdh actually fun
trim plaza
nah do it its fun
I absolute hate how anhilator works
shut jasper
it's a very stupid argument
still locust
You're slamming us for being "too attached to their playstyle"
lucid arrow
i fail to see how beam uptime is wasted but incarn isnt
daring nymph
:) showing useless lunar beam uptime
still locust
But then you're doing this
sudden peak
I absolute hate how anhilator works
what part exactly? i like meta procs and cdr personally
but also feels bad cuz if you dont get a decent proc you might be deadge
daring nymph
No no I get it
This version of vdh is def less fun than tww or df
Felscarred slapped
sudden peak
bro I miss shadowlands vdh
daring nymph
Anni slaps but not in the same way
sudden peak
dont @ me
trim plaza
what part exactly? i like meta procs and cdr personally
Meta procs is apex, what i mean is all ur dmg comes from being in meta dropping meteors like wtf
sudden peak
Meta procs is apex, what i mean is all ur dmg comes from being in meta dropping ...
right but those meta procs give u cdr on your meta
daring nymph
Feels so fucking good
trim plaza
Tww aldrachi was so goated
sudden peak
bc u get max stacks voidfall
sudden peak
being forced to overlap your 2 defensives for damage
this is how felscarred was too
its gross
they need to just like
remove the damage amp from fiery brand or smth
daring nymph
It’s not like that’s new for vdh
trim plaza
Aldrachi had so much prio dmg as tank
daring nymph
That was always its fantasy
shut jasper
it's not new but it's still kinda shitty design
daring nymph
Idk I find it okay
But it’s not for everyone and that’s fine
Being hyper aggressive cause most of your dr/ sustain kit comes from being aggressive and trying to shit out as much damage as possible
Is pretty neat
shut jasper
I'd say I much preferred alrachi but even then
trim plaza
Also immoaura doing 0 dmg for the millionth season for vdh is so bad
shut jasper
without s2 tier set for the resets vdh aldrachi always felt worse than havoc aldrachi (rip)
sudden peak
Also immoaura doing 0 dmg for the millionth season for vdh is so bad
take me back to shadowlands man thats what imsa ying
daring nymph
Nah fel dev shitty button now
sudden peak
spam fel dev immo aura and spiritbomb
daring nymph
I understand why they did it but like
sudden peak
i dont even wanna press it
daring nymph
Nah
daring nymph
Gotta make fel dev do a ton of damage and make it interact with both hero trees
sudden peak
idk maybe meta uptime would be too high
daring nymph
is what I don't get
So they can add a rng version of it to the apex 
sudden peak
idfk
shut jasper
keep both smh
sudden peak
vdh is my 2nd fav tank after blood
daring nymph
I miss felscarred
daring nymph
Vdh should have kept felscarred and reaver
shut jasper
I used to love vdh in legion but never liked it that much since
daring nymph
Havoc should have lost reaver cause fuck soul tracking on havoc
trim plaza
Tbh who the f asked for a void theme dh in the first place
daring nymph
I mean people asked for a third range spec on dh for awhile
Making void doesn’t really matter to much
high path
i want another tank spec
Shaman tank pog
daring nymph
Tho they kinda make it sucky
sudden peak
IM DOWN
daring nymph
Story wise
sudden peak
Literally any new tank man Im STARVED
merry quest
Sorry, my warden shaman sense tingled
merry quest
Imma go back to work now
high path
daring nymph
Instead of you devouring a void monster like normal dh do with demons
You just eat void
Yay
Even tho we’ve seen a fel corrupted void beast in wod
Granted midnight isn’t my highlight for story
Ngl
sudden peak
whenever legion came out
trim plaza
Legion was 2016
sudden peak
think it was 2016
merry quest
Ye
daring nymph
Shadowlands> Xalatoes saga in terms of story
merry quest
What month?
daring nymph
November I think
merry quest
Ye, so bit to go before I update
still locust
merry quest
We Gucci
merry quest
Oh shit son
still locust
And DH came in pre-patch
trim plaza
^
sudden peak
Should have made aug a tank
so true bestie
still locust
trim plaza
Nvm i change my statement, who the f asked for a support spec
daring nymph
Sadly Aug could have been great
sudden peak
maybe more
trim plaza
A lot of people actually
It would make sense if many specs would have gotten one, cause having only 1 means its always op as f
shut jasper
honestly think aug in it's current state is pretty neat, but we do definitely need another tank
shut jasper
as it works currently it's just a dps that functions differently
still locust
Aug got changed to be much less of a support spec
lucid arrow
just make shaman tank
still locust
Which helps
lucid arrow
its overdue
shut jasper
as the extra utility got taken out back
still locust
Well I mean
daring nymph
Honestly
shut jasper
the armor talent being completely useless for example
still locust
With the new apex
daring nymph
Tinker
still locust
Aug has CC out the ass again
shut jasper
true
trim plaza
Idk aug perma knocking adds is broken as hell
still locust
Tinker
Engineering being a thing prevents this, and they don't want to kill engineering despite it not actually being useful anymore
daring nymph
Add tinkerer in the game
daring nymph
Engineering being a thing prevents this, and they don't want to kill engineering...
Boo
still locust
Although
They did add bows to inscription now
So maybe there's a chance they murder engineering
shut jasper
but they don't have the shield from rescue or strong scales anymore
daring nymph
Yet they put chemistry or whatever in a survey
lucid arrow
i dont see why engineering and tinker compete
still locust
daring nymph
Which competes with alchemy
trim plaza
i dont see why engineering and tinker compete
Brother
hazy mural
btw this dosent mean more incarn, cause u dont always press incarn on cd, more mangle more r age for IF for sure, but I think the incarn thing is overestimated tbh
lucid arrow
they're thematically similar but obviously it doesn't make engi useless
trim plaza
Let it be over
still locust
Booo, stop bringing up old topics
still locust
they're thematically similar but obviously it doesn't make engi useless
You mean thematically identical
daring nymph
I’m taking that bait
But ya
Idc
Bring tinkerer
I want to be in a big mech
Imagine your big tank cd
Is just hopping in your mech
lucid arrow
You mean thematically identical
well not exactly
hazy mural
Dont respawn it heals
had my brunch, not over for me 
lucid arrow
tinker would have many things engi doesn't
daring nymph
And then like
lucid arrow
as in, enough things to fill in a rotation of 3 specs
still locust
Imagine your big tank cd
Funny, you think tinker would have a tank spec?
daring nymph
Some of your rotational skills become mech versions of it
daring nymph
Funny, you think tinker would have a tank spec?
That would be cool
merry quest
Is just hopping in your mech
Tbh if they went that way I think you’d just always be in the mech
still locust
It would have a healer spec, a pet turret/bot spec and a rocket/flamethrower spec
daring nymph
To tank while in a big robot
daring nymph
Tbh if they went that way I think you’d just always be in the mech
That’s fine with me tbh
Like bear
But robot
lucid arrow
mech would probably be a cd
blizzard loves their cds
if they made druid now the forms would all be cds
still locust
??
still locust
Brother, druids haven't had CDs on their shapeshifts since warcraft 3
lucid arrow
that would be what I'm saying
lucid arrow
if blizzard were to make druid as a new class in 2026, they'd probably make the shapeshifts cd
still locust
The smoke alarm is going off
lucid arrow
feral would cast wrath for 10k dps and every 2 mins go cat form for 20s for 500k dps
shut jasper
It would have a healer spec, a pet turret/bot spec and a rocket/flamethrower spe...
pure dps class, take or leave it
merry quest
Healer spec design for tinker could be fun - drones that drop healing air strikes, nanobot injections, the classic tf2 healing ray
lucid arrow
pure dps class, take or leave it
rocket ranged, the gazlowe hots melee talent, and turret ranged
merry quest
Tank lives in its mech, dps plays around with explosives and turrets
still locust
I don't know if I'm meant to talk about this in here but
lucid arrow
take it or leave it
still locust
Conquest of Azeroth
daring nymph
What’s that
lucid arrow
pserver
shut jasper
why do the class icons look AI
lucid arrow
release by 2036 huge
still locust
why do the class icons look AI
Dunno if they are, they used some ai stuff for talent backgrounds in early alpha just to have placeholder art
shut jasper
I don't think they are because 5 years ago they would have looked a lot worse if ai gened
they just look like it
daring nymph
Well if they use Ai
Then no ty
Also
I like some of these concepts
A lich spec would go hard
still locust
I think it was just placeholder art (if they had any) and has long been replaced
fleet shell
Does someone knows the macro for incarn that uses trash before and after in the same keybind??
still locust
There's no significant gain to macroing like that over just pressing thrash, incarn, thrash
You have the whole global cooldown of the first thrash to press incarn and be ready to press thrash again
desert pecan
Is there a way to see what raidbots is pressing?
It says my dotc apex build is 60k more dps (10 targets) than the ec thrash build but actual running dungeons im very close to same dps for both builds
trim plaza
A lich spec would go hard
btw what talent setup u run with EC Apex
covert stone
Is there a macro for regrowth that can not accidentaly demorph you
fervent swan
Do you need the two rings from Nexus Point for the equip effect to trigger?
as a bear?
queen salmon
embelish works too
tall basin
as a bear?
tall basin
embelish works too
i see no embelish he uses here with shadow dmg
tall basin
ahhhh ye
my bad
but i guess the dmg from neck is, let's say "not here" XD
but the stats are gucci
fervent swan
embelish works too
nice
rustic kestrel
@lucid arrow Naowh using DoC btw
forest flume
waits for the "ah yes i can see how its clearly the superior option now"
olive hare
Its always been that 🤷♂️ But DG is reasonably close to serve as a lazy option.
toxic field
with nopex build, during a pull, when both thrash and lb are off cooldown what is the better global?
forest flume
with nopex build, during a pull, when both thrash and lb are off cooldown what i...
i answered you yesterday, moonfire
rustic kestrel
no, hes asking should he press thrash or lunar beam
toxic field
i answered you yesterday, moonfire
off coldown. not on cooldown
rustic kestrel
Press Lunar beam
slate mountain
Hi ! 🙂 Quick question about craft why do they craft Crit/hast and not versa Haste ? or mastery
olive compass
dont panick fellas
vagrant python
if im tanking in m+ as dotc, whats the move if im getting hit a lot and i have a ravage proc and i already have like 1 ironfur? is a second layer of ironfur better or do i let rip the ravage?
violet holly
if im tanking in m+ as dotc, whats the move if im getting hit a lot and i have a...
ravage also has a defensive benefit
trim plaza
ravage gives flat dr
vagrant python
yeah i think 15% thingy
vagrant python
ok! also if i have a ravage proc and im like 20 or so points away from 80 rage, do i wait or do i ravage at that moment too
trim plaza
u dont need ever to wait 80
vagrant python
scenario where i pulled a whole ass room
trim plaza
just send it at 60
vagrant python
oh i always think at 80 for the harness thingy
soft flint
quick question, I checked pins but didn't find this info, where can I find on which dungeons to use my bonus role?
vagrant python
ok thanks!
trim plaza
as long as u benefit full killing blow
trim plaza
quick question, I checked pins but didn't find this info, where can I find on wh...
new char?
violet holly
you use on whatever dungeon you get the loot you need
if its a fresh one I suggest windrunner
every item there is good
trim plaza
windrunner spire is good one for fresh
violet holly
and it has a wep, and good trinkets
soft flint
new char?
no, at 283 rn I have mythic weapon (not bis) but my tanking trinks are all hero, I have heart and plume (do have box at 298 but holding on using it atm)
soft flint
ouzzle is for kitty paw paw lol
versed gorge
Ive had puzzlebox since the beginning, ive never unequipped lol
trim plaza
also nxp rings are good ones too
shut jasper
oh i always think at 80 for the harness thingy
good chance you might want to drop harnessed rage anyways tbf
it was already optimal to opt out of it for damage before the thrash buff, after it it's become quite meh
noble ledge
97 for my ilvl on heroic imperator without warri buff, please be proud of me 
soft flint
well my weapon is the one from windrunner spire lol so trinks and i could also use that neck on mythic as well
fallen robin
no, at 283 rn I have mythic weapon (not bis) but my tanking trinks are all hero,...
If you have a myth weapon they're all pretty equivalent for Guardian. Might check the loot tables to see if there are any dungeons that drop myth slots you need too.
shut jasper
97 for my ilvl on heroic imperator without warri buff, please be proud of me <a:...
did you bribe the other tank to let you get adds every time? 
(but gz)
hazy mural
97 for my ilvl on heroic imperator without warri buff, please be proud of me <a:...
not pink 
noble ledge
not pink <a:nopers:952984243749933116>
hazy mural
<:owoRemHmpf:593379147116445697>
trim plaza
not pink <a:nopers:952984243749933116>
says bro who doesnt even raid
soft flint
If you have a myth weapon they're all pretty equivalent for Guardian. Might chec...
great tks
vagrant python
good chance you might want to drop harnessed rage anyways tbf
oh i just copied it from the compendium. but if i do it would be a lot easier for me i think
shut jasper
it's still a gain st but aoe you get gore so much it does nothing almost
vagrant python
right ill see if it feels good moving it somewhere else. thanks!
shut jasper
double FC if you don't have it
trim plaza
ye double fc is must
shut jasper
talking about dotc so
trim plaza
ik
shut jasper
and I'd prob run guardian of elune over the mastery talent
trim plaza
and I'd prob run guardian of elune over the mastery talent
guardian is good if u play raze
without raze i would go mastery instead
shut jasper
even with raze on dotc I'd rather just have higher uptime on more if stacks than that
rustic kestrel
raze point almost useless for current dotc keys. At the bottom of the tree you always have 2 FC, then you choose between Moonless night(damage) or Harnessed Rage(tankyness
trim plaza
so WN is absolute useless for DotC?
rustic kestrel
no, it does a few % damage, you just do more damage with MN
shut jasper
raze point almost useless for current dotc keys. At the bottom of the tree you a...
realistically I'm not sure hr even gives you that much extra tankiness on multi target situations
trim plaza
oki
rustic kestrel
realistically I'm not sure hr even gives you that much extra tankiness on multi ...
its more ironfur + healing
do significantly more mangle healing with hr
shut jasper
what I mean is that you get so much gore it's not that many more mangles
if you look at just aoe
st sure it's pretty big
rustic kestrel
you'd be surprised how often you have to swipe without it
I thought the same thing
but, the issue with it is that its a useless talent point during incarn
Brybear and I have switched with it a couple times
vagrant python
maybe ill move my harness to fc 2/2! feels good multi proccing this thang
rustic kestrel
You 100% should have 2/2 fc
vagrant python
pins build doesn't have it
ooh this is the pic i copied from compendium
shut jasper
yeah that's what we were discussing, a couple options would prob be best swapped
vagrant python
i specifically tried looking for one that uses raze cus i like it, and not elunes chosen cus i feel icky pressing moonfire as filler
rustic kestrel
Though I take a point out of reinvig and put it back into bark cd
vagrant python
thanks! ill do another pass at recent convo so i understand better
still locust
i specifically tried looking for one that uses raze cus i like it, and not elune...
There are elune's chosen builds that press raze and don't use moonfire as a filler if you prefer that
It basically plays identical to DOTC, except you don't get ravage procs
vagrant python
There are elune's chosen builds that press raze and don't use moonfire as a fill...
oh, where is it? might have missed it. im prone to skimming
still locust
https://www.dreamgrove.gg/blog/guardian/compendium#mythic-talents This section of the compendium has 3 builds for each hero tree. Only the one called "Nopex" under Elune's Chosen is without maul
The other 2 play the same (ish) as druid of the claw
Just if you wanted an Elune's Chosen option
vagrant python
ok ty!
shut jasper
for that build it might be worth swapping elune's favored to moonless, unless you really feel the need for that extra healing
still locust
The maul builds have moonless
trim plaza
tbh EF, FoN and moonless all good ones
shut jasper
for the apex build elune's is particularly weak
still locust
After the MN nerf
shut jasper
this is the build where moonless is strongest too
actually hadn't realized until now how tight ec raze feels on talent points, compared to other builds
trim plaza
idk FoN kinda boosts everything even in apex build, does MN really push through it
shut jasper
idk FoN kinda boosts everything even in apex build, does MN really push through ...
raze is like half your damage with apex build
actually nvm
not quite that much
still locust
1 point in FoN, MN and EF are all options for the build
shut jasper
can't sim atm but should be easy to compare there (though sim is slightly biased in mn's favor, since you'll raze targets without moonfire sometimes)
still locust
MN should be more burst damage, especially against prio targets
But it's close either way
vagrant python
ok sorry last question for now, during incarn with the flood of ravage procs, i just let it rip right? no care about killing blow?
shut jasper
yeh
preferably you still send buffed by kb but rather send unbuffed than risk wasting a proc
vagrant python
ok last last question, how do i deal with wild guardian and ravage? i make sure to use my 2 wild guardian on ravages?
rustic kestrel
preferably
vagrant python
ok i think i asked everything i was curious about. thanks! really helpful friends here
trim plaza
im glad someone is playing apex too and having fun with it
half surge
3700 breaked, 19 resil soon (tm)
short nest
anyone else have trouble with The Light of Elune on mythic paladins? I've had the Fury of Elune proc on Senn while she's far away on her aura and get silenced 🙂
do you just switch to Astral Insight not to deal with this?
still locust
That would be the option, yes
short nest
feels super dumb but it is what it is I guess
short nest
yeah I'm not too bummed about that, it just feels dumb that a random proc can silence you when you're not doing anything wrong
edgy shard
Is getting hit in the back an issue for bear?
long barn
Does anyone have issues with remove curses as guardian? Specifically this macro is not working on the duo boss in Windrunner
#showtooltip Remove Corruption
/cast [target=mouseover,help,nodead][target=target] Remove Corruption
rustic kestrel
Is getting hit in the back an issue for bear?
You cannot dodge while getting hit in the back. So while you dont technically take bonus damage, the more swings at your back the more damage you take overall
still locust
I don't know if target=mouseover works, but @mouseover works
short nest
Is getting hit in the back an issue for bear?
less so than block tanks but still something to be avoided when you can
still locust
preferably you still send buffed by kb but rather send unbuffed than risk wastin...
I'd have to recheck but I'm pretty sure you only send ravages with 60+ rage
@vagrant python tagging you too because it's an answer to your question
Because sending at 40 rage is 100% of a ravage, sending at 50 rage is 135% of a ravage and sending at 60 rage is 170% of a ravage
So even if you sometimes risk clipping, you're still very unlikely to clip
And getting effectively 2x ravage per proc is much better than maybe sometimes not clipping
This is also why you try to hover around max rage in DOTC, even during incarn
To limit the amount of times you have less than 60 rage and a ravage proc
vagrant python
ah yeah thats a good avenue for improvement for me i havent even thought of that at my level
rage control mmm
red knoll
Does ironfur even do anything on mythic paladins
I feel like most of tbe damahe is just holy
Damage
still locust
Most of the damage is holy yeah
But they still melee hard
You can probably survive the encounter without ironfur
red knoll
Ive noticed im only in danger when whatserbitch is meleeing me
And ironfur seems to do mostly nothing
Im also tanking senn most of the fight
So im taking nearly double the damage from the other tank but its almost all magic
still locust
They both melee equally hard, about 900k before mitigation if not empowered by anythjing
I'd still keep up 1 stack of IF
Because why not
red knoll
Bellamy shield definitely hits harder than the ret guys swing
drifting scarab
Hello Guys. I thin kthere was an addon or macro so i dont switch out of bear when i dont have proc for healing. can u link pls? thanks!
shut jasper
I'd have to recheck but I'm *pretty* sure you only send ravages with 60+ rage
I think ideally you always have enough rage for it but if the situation comes up where you don't have enough you send it rather than risk override it with claw rampage
still locust
Bellamy shield definitely hits harder than the ret guys swing
Not according to logs
still locust
Everything not a melee is holy damage
red knoll
The taunt swap thing
shut jasper
that said it's not a situation that comes up on sims because the sim won't make that rage management mistake
red knoll
I can live venel swap easily with just fregen up,
Bellamy swap one shots me if i dont have anything up
still locust
This is the physical damage taken by this bear I'm looking at
This is not-physical damage
still locust
I think ideally you always have enough rage for it but if the situation comes up...
Ye but just logically speaking, you're incredibly unlikely to get a proc on any given auto attack, and claw rampage is only 20%
red knoll
Sorry triple
shut jasper
outside of incarn the choice is obvious and it's build before sending
still locust
still locust
Sorry triple
I haven't checked if they fucked up the taunts at any point
shut jasper
I guess I was misremembering 
red knoll
Na shield definitely just does more damage
You get one shot unless you have bark si incarn and an external up
If you take the shield plus judgment
Its like 3milli
Unless you can cheese it somehow
Maybe dks can live the hit
still locust
The numbers aren't super different
red knoll
Its 3 vs 6 hits
still locust
Look at the "U: " values
stiff phoenix
timed my first 15. was AA. only done it on 12 before. living that first pull is dope ass mean
red knoll
Does damage reduced by barkskin count as unmitigated
oblique adder
okay so im pretty much geared for guardian rn, if I wanted to feral dps sometimes how rough will my dps be with guardian gear
red knoll
Idk how hes taking less unmitigated some hits
still locust
Unmitigated is calculated backwards
I believe
So it takes the actual damage taken, and the mitigation and absorbs amount the tank has, then calculates the unmitigated amount
It's not perfect, but it's close enough on magic damage like this
red knoll
So he had like si instead of bark on the 500k hits
still locust
The bosses have periods of increased damage done
red knoll
Im wondering if I should take RF on that fight
still locust
The 43% mitigation hits are probably bark, and the 67% is probably SI
red knoll
I took off brambles cuz healers were struggle bussing but i put it in the magic dr which doesnt seem too helpful
Its like 2% dr most times
UW I think is what its called
Im playing dotc, basically saving 1 stack of si for emergencies and saving ironfur for every swap
Err barkskin
Not ironfur
So i think the extra dr on swap would help a bit
But idk
red knoll
Im also saving incarn for swaps when I need to double taunt
The senn pull out mostly
Though it usually lines up pretty perfectly
Are there any talents you can think of that would help with just reducing the overall magic damage im taking
UW seems minor but might add up
edgy merlin
I think there is something wrong with logs maybe for guardian though looking at paladin logs. Like this one for example the shield of the righteous dmg (unmitigated) varies very wildly from 944k to 560k https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/QHVJYFfghpxD729K?fight=27&type=damage-taken&source=11&target=397&ability=1251859&view=events
no taunt misses
edgy merlin
I think it has to do with on target mitigation like moonfire and thrash
edgy merlin
the first one that supposedly hits for 944k doesnt have moonfire and only 1 thrash stack
the next one for 560k has moonfire and 5 thrash stacks
maybe wclogs doesnt calculate those dmg reductions correctly?
red knoll
And idk if its a healer externalling me or if the ability just wildly varies in damage
red knoll
So is it just guardian bug? Or logs being weird
edgy merlin
so the wclogs damage calculation is off or bear mitigation breaks in that fight., But I would guess it's a log problem
red knoll
Its not a health % based hit right?
red knoll
It seems to be a lot more on us
Ive looked at desth logs and its hit me for more before
edgy merlin
well it could be just that you usually swap when he is coming back from aura
edgy merlin
and dont have moonfire or any thrash stacks
edgy merlin
those are already a 25% mititgation
short nest
I'm not running red moon on that fight
open trail
For crafts, is it better to use 289 gear over embelish?
short nest
maybe it's a bit more damage but that's far from the problem we're having
short nest
red moon feels clunky and sometimes forces me to swipe so I tend to avoid it more than most
red knoll
Moonfire does nothing for dotc so
I guess its split on who is running rm on tjat fight
Its just so much upfront damage idk
edgy merlin
It could be boosted by something im not aware of
yeah looking at the fight timings now it's pretty clear. General does the tankbuster almost instantly when returning (no mf or thrash stacks), Commander does his 20s after returning meaning full stacks
red knoll
yeah looking at the fight timings now it's pretty clear. General does the tankbu...
Yeah
edgy merlin
So basically General easily does up to 33% more dmg just because you dont have time to put thrash and mf mitigation up. Logs don't seem to work correctly for those mitigations
red knoll
Shes a ho
I hate her
So much
Is it okay to have venel die when the others are around 30%
I feel like the loss of the mechanics makes up for the slow ramp
Healing wise
Our biggest issue is just healers going oom
Sometimes we fuck up the taunt swaps. It gets messy when the charge baits are in Narnia
brave raft
I see all the best tanks using fluent form, yet I have no clue why. Anyone care to fill me in? dont we jsut sit in bearform all the time anyway, aside from when we use Hotw?
red knoll
So should we kill venel first and just do the other 2 at 30%
Cuz they stop doing mechanics when one dies right
noble ledge
I see all the best tanks using fluent form, yet I have no clue why. Anyone care ...
It is nice for removing snares too
edgy merlin
I see all the best tanks using fluent form, yet I have no clue why. Anyone care ...
It's a little bit more dmg when using HotW (no other dmg talents to replace it in the class tree). There is a useful hidden interaction with fluid form as well (a bug). If you manually switch to bear form you get the same rage as if you used mangle (if you used mangle at least once in your previous bear form)
So for example you end a pack, run to next pack in travel form, switch to bear manually before pull, you have 42 rage instead of 25
Pretty useful to have that one ironfur up on pull
valid totem
hello guys im kinda a imortal bear with 290ilvl but for some reason in boss fights i struggle to get 50k dps :x i see guardians do 70/80/90k dps whats the secret? :x kinda new to tanking and dps always was healer main
red knoll
Are you using apex
edgy merlin
Are you taling raid or m+ bosses?
red knoll
Oh true
edgy merlin
m+ nopex build doesnt deal more than 50-60k on bosses
valid totem
raids!
edgy merlin
well you need to play a raid build for starters
and it's hard to say after that without a log
shut jasper
if you have the correct buiild the next step is linking a log
quick schooner
Is healer top prio to use symbio relationship or like some melee dps? Dont know on who to click it on higher keys tbh
wary hearth
So how could a bear do 100k dps ST in a m+?
rustic kestrel
they arent
amber ocean
So how could a bear do 100k dps ST in a m+?
Play a ST raid build in M+
And have said boss die veryyyyyyyy quickly
wary hearth
I mean even with apex in m+ I am around 50-60kish
amber ocean
Cause that's an AoE build, and you presumably have AoE talents and trinkets
shut jasper
Is healer top prio to use symbio relationship or like some melee dps? Dont know ...
throw it on the squishiest dps
for the meta comp it's aug all the way
wary hearth
Probably, I can do over 100k for sometime, but until boss dies it gets down
valid totem
well you need to play a raid build for starters
one of my biggest questions if its worth it losing 60 haste to have the 4 tier set, i had the hero piece and got the boe
still locust
Your stats don't matter
+60 haste is not going to make or break anything
I'd rather just have 4p on in case you decide to press maul once ever with the buff up
rustic kestrel
if you lose 60 haste you will do 30% less damage
still locust
If you never ever ever ever EVER plan on pressing maul, you can just run 2p
But you don't really gain anything
Specific* stats aren't that important for bear
valid totem
ok im gonna convert it then
still locust
In raid you 100% should play with maul, apex and 4p
red knoll
People playing no apex in raid 
red knoll
In raid you 100% should play with maul, apex and 4p
Dont forget mangle and not if bound
oblique moat
nah damage doesn't matter in raid /s
oblique moat
survivability is king!
red knoll
I used to be first 
still locust
survivability is king!
Survival is fun but I prefer MM generally
red knoll
They keep nerfing my boy
oblique moat
beast master languishing
still locust
Which is your favorite survival ability
valid totem
the thing is i barely need to use defensives in raid i wanted to deal more dmg :x
still locust
the thing is i barely need to use defensives in raid i wanted to deal more dmg :...
Then you 100000% want 4p
red knoll
Then play apex lol
oblique moat
oh yeah i'm just being silly
still locust
With maul, apex and all that
valid totem
who said i wanst playing apex?
still locust
Man, I'm just covering all the bases since you asked about wearing 4p
Which feels like an entry-level question
red knoll
Well if u are why would you drop 4p lol
still locust
And a lot of flavour of the month bears are running the no-maul M+ build in raids (this is not good)
valid totem
guys like i said im a noob i was just asking questions x)
red knoll
And a lot of flavour of the month bears are running the no-maul M+ build in raid...
Think of all the damage you do on void orbs and alleria adds tho
still locust
I was just covering all the bases in one reply instead of possibly going through 8 replies
amber ocean
And a lot of flavour of the month bears are running the no-maul M+ build in raid...
I'm over here wondering why it's so easy to get oranges this tier on bear... I suppose that explains a lot.
still locust
I'm over here wondering why it's so easy to get oranges this tier on bear... I s...
A lot of tanks in general don't believe in doing damage
red knoll
(Ignore the 30k damage on boss)
amber ocean
A lot of tanks in general don't believe in doing damage
...
still locust
So just showing up with a mindset of doing damage nets you purple parses
shut jasper
beast master languishing
they got buffed like every hotfix so far
red knoll
I got a 94 on chimmy
rustic kestrel
the bear population has also just been famously awful
so like if you kind of know your rotation, raid parsing has always been soooo easy
amber ocean
I got a 94 on chimmy <:VerySadCat:845090284231458817>
My 97 hasn't locked in yet. 🙁
shut jasper
that's just tank parsing in general
still locust
Yeah, it's a problem that "plagues" all tanks, but bears are especially hit by it with the reputation of the "easy tank for noobs"
shut jasper
not just bear
trim plaza
I got a 94 on chimmy <:VerySadCat:845090284231458817>
99 on dragons as blood, ahh
shut jasper
like in tww I think s1 pala was one of the biggest offenders
red knoll
99 on dragons as blood, ahh
When DRW and procs all line up for orbs
shut jasper
because the m+ build did negative st
red knoll
trim plaza
yes i prog as blood, guild didnt need bear
shut jasper
and you'd see people run it in raid and it was just painful
trim plaza
When DRW and procs all line up for orbs
sanlayn is fcking op with execute death strikes
amber ocean
I have yet to get a 99 in mythic. But I did get a 99 on my first clear of HC L'ura which I was pretty happy about, given it's kinda-sorta difficult (But not for tanks)
red knoll
Lura is nap pov for tanks
amber ocean
Lura is nap pov for tanks
It really is to be fair
still locust
I have yet to get a 99 in mythic. But I did get a 99 on my first clear of HC L'u...
That's great, and I don't want to rain on your parade or anything
red knoll
Im looking forward to it on mythic
still locust
But a LOT of higher end guilds skipped heroic l'ura entirely
amber ocean
But a *LOT* of higher end guilds skipped heroic l'ura entirely
That was us, to be fair. We skipped it and eventually came back to it, lol
trim plaza
Paladins is fucking awful for cog load
ye i hate that boss
amber ocean
Im hating having to sit up every fight
Crown is easy for tanks outside of P1 at least
red knoll
Fucking dps
amber ocean
I'm perma on for P1
amber ocean
But then p2 + p3 come and it's so chill
shut jasper
we're about to start mythic l'ura prog only like 2-3 people on the roster have curve
shut jasper
very funny
red knoll
When healers and tanks have to fucking do 50x the work of dps on paladins
half surge
Are complaining
if u pay a little attention.. its always dps who complain huh
red knoll
We take the shit out for you, we stack shit for you, we plant the soaks for you.
All you have to do is soak and bait
amber ocean
When healers and tanks have to fucking do 50x the work of dps on paladins
Stack for soaks, and bait the charge
That's it
red knoll
And they cant do the bait
Ever
Its too hard
I get that complaint every time
Like fuck off
And dps yelling for me to stack the bosses
While theyre fucking channeling
half surge
Like fuck off
spit it out brotha, spit it out here, let ur soul calm down after all the filth is out
amber ocean
And dps yelling for me to stack the bosses
Lmao yep, that was definitely a fun time for me as well
red knoll
Cuz he was bitching the bosses werent pixel stacked for 2 seconds
Like really man
Just shut up
Anywyas
I hate dps
trim plaza
let me guess, devourer dh
trim plaza
well that was my next guess
red knoll
During raid dps should stfu
still locust
Frost mage
Funny, frost mage cleave is insanely lenient these days
red knoll
Funny, frost mage cleave is insanely lenient these days
Im aware
still locust
During raid dps should stfu
Alright chill buddy
half surge
tehn u can spi out what u want and say whats wrong
still locust
lmao
half surge
Alright chill buddy
but hes right tho...
red knoll
And where they were stacked melee could cleave them
half surge
hes fkin right...
red knoll
So i just went off on him
still locust
He's not really
red knoll
Dps telling tanks how to tank mid prog when they've never experienced the tank mechs should be quiet lol.
still locust
I don't want to waste a night of prog if a dps has figured something out but they're not allowed to talk
half surge
yes dps part is the most important, but i guess... tanks know better how to tank
red knoll
Bro didnt know the bosses cant move while theyre casting
half surge
I don't want to waste a night of prog if a dps has figured something out but the...
agree
half surge
but i mean
red knoll
I value all input from my raid team mid raid night
Mid pull?
still locust
I will let them know what I think and why it's a bad idea if it is
rustic kestrel
i tell them theyre a bunch of morons
edgy merlin
It's better to mute the raiders and listen to some chill music
rustic kestrel
and to let me go
still locust
Unfortunately there are also a lot of situations where tanks are like this
And they're just flatout wrong about it
half surge
agree too
red knoll
Sure
still locust
I don't need arrogant tanks who think they're flawless
rustic kestrel
I had to come in for alleria and beloran and I hated every minute of it
half surge
but if tank does the right, and mechanic was executed
why would some1 complain? just for purpose?
still locust
In the case of a boss not being stacked because it's channeling, I would laugh at the raider telling the boss to move
half surge
complaining about something such minor like inch of boss wasnt aligned.. i mean
edgy merlin
Some people are just complainers
still locust
There's no real dps check on paladins anymore anyway
red knoll
Im talking mid pull
still locust
complaining about something such minor like inch of boss wasnt aligned.. i mean
It can be a valid complaint
still locust
Im talking mid pull
Yes
trim plaza
It's better to mute the raiders and listen to some chill music
hard this
red knoll
Idc if they talk between pulls
edgy merlin
You can spot the type often by how they complain about someone failing. Then next pull they fail the same mechanic and complete silence
still locust
Yeah we call those people morons and they quickly stop
edgy merlin
Or ''Don't hit my crystal with your beam!'' into ''Don't drop your crystal where I need to move in with my beams''
olive hare
Sounds like a range parselord 
still locust
Personally, I will never understand the people who treat raid as a single-player game
trim plaza
only time i almost lost my mind when our dps players told to move salhadar away from orb when he is CASTING THE TANK BUSTER
still locust
That goes for arrogant dps who thinks the world revolves around them just as much as people who mute everyone and blast music
I raid because I like having fun with friends and killing bosses as a team
If I had to sit in silence mid pull without being allowed banter (within reason) then I would rather just quit
jovial mauve
if playing m+ nopex EC build, how reliable topgear sims are if u never cast maul but sims use it?
still locust
if playing m+ nopex EC build, how reliable topgear sims are if u never cast maul...
Your preferred stats don't change between using maul or not
The gear comparison on top gear is still fine
oblique moat
they got buffed like every hotfix so far
sorry i meant the lack of fans here
still locust
sorry i meant the lack of fans here
I like BM too, but MM goes pew pew
oblique moat
i like my pet army
olive hare
So jealous. Last time raiding felt like it was fun was during Sepulcher iirc. Has become more and more of a burden, despite sticking to social guilds. I'm currently at the point of 'if I could get 4pc similarly fast without raiding I'd ditch it entirely"
trim plaza
So jealous. Last time raiding felt like it was fun was during Sepulcher iirc. Ha...
my most fun raid has to be amirdrassil, soloing fyrakk as blood every time
olive hare
my most fun raid has to be amirdrassil, soloing fyrakk as blood every time
Did the same on sylvanas with bear, some memories are strong 👍
trim plaza
eww sanctum
oblique moat
pack leader meh
yeah i'm on PL now and it's like whatever i do not care about rexxars pets
black arrow is cool but im worried the talent for darkhounds will override my dire stable glyph
i should probably just test to see
red knoll
only time i almost lost my mind when our dps players told to move salhadar away ...
Our RL unfortunately is a rdps and often does this lol
Hes gotten better about it after me and my co tank talked to him about it
But we still get blamed for shit outside our control on newer prog bosses
An add lived at 4% from the middle of the room to chimmy and tanks got blamed for not having the boss at the very edge of the platform lol
We have 3 Monks and 3 druids, I typhooned and ursol'd it
Still made it to boss lmao
still locust
Could you have prevented it walking in by taking a few steps though?
Because that is sort of your job on chim, regardless of if the rest of the raid team fucked up too
red knoll
Not on my bear i had moved to be closer to the add to vortex, I mightve been able to if i dashed?
But taking a back shot with dash on the off chance it didnt die vs dps not doing 4% to a smally
I definitely could've done SOMETHING, and i already had with typhoon and vortex. But yeah i weighed it and just thought it would die
If i was made aware no one was gunna hit it i could've moved it before hand
It was also an awkward point where I would've had to put people at risk by walking into dissonance range
edgy merlin
Basically there are 3 types of mistakes in raid and m+.
- Someone else fucked up and there was nothing I could do to save it
2.Someone else fucked up but I could save it by playing better myself - I fucked up
Many lump 2 into 1 and blame others for failing
best improvement comes from focusing on turning mistakes of those sorts into saves
red knoll
I think there's reasonable reason to not have to burden one role with other peoples fuck ups though. Moving chimmy far away from adds should be a last ditch effort and called out. Particularly when trying to get the big add on the boss during consume.
Cuz you lose a lot of uptime on boss when you move him away from big guy
still locust
But taking a back shot with dash on the off chance it didnt die vs dps not doing...
You wouldn't die to a backshot, that's not how bear works
muted pulsar
Moving boss away during small adds and then back to the big add once smallies are dead is pretty normal
edgy merlin
Well sure that is the optimal situation. But your situation as follows: 1. Move the boss and risk some raid dmg and loss of uptime 2. Dont move and hope that add gets killed in time
For me option 2 is a lot safer
after pull/wipe you can discuss that hey guys maybe kill the add further so i dont have to go to africa
still locust
And have significantly less health
? Spec persistence?
edgy merlin
but saying that wow the dps players are failing and there was nothing I could do is a bit of a copout
still locust
<:BearSus:935802275660714044>
If backshots were dangerous for bears, you would be dead on any regular auto where you happen to not dodge
edgy merlin
I think I move the boss away like 50% of time on our farm kills
muted pulsar
Anyway if you play with competent people the big add can get out of the realm so fast that you have to kite the whole time
forest flume
If backshots were dangerous for bears, you would be dead on any regular auto whe...
No, I am aware, my sus emote was for your accidental innuendo lol
red knoll
Anyway if you play with competent people the big add can get out of the realm so...
Thats not how that mech works lol
If you have him in the right spot he will always reach the boss
edgy merlin
same in m+, instead of ''wow dps players are shit they didnt interrupt the add they marked and we wiped'' instead it sometimes could be ''Incap, ping add, typhoon if still not kicked, maybe manage to interrupt yourself, save pull''
red knoll
Within the consume
still locust
Thats not how that mech works lol
That is exactly how that works, actually
If you bring the add out super fast it instantly starts walking with half the raid still inside
If you break it out towards the end of the inside phase it doesn't start walking early, and the entire raid can hit it
muted pulsar
Thats not how that mech works lol
Ah yes having the add walk 10 more seconds towards the boss doesn't mean you have to move the boss
Big brain time
still locust
it's a none-issue because you can just kite if you need it
red knoll
If youre late you have to move the boss towards the big add
still locust
You don't, though?
red knoll
If its killed instantly it reaches the boss on its spot
still locust
There's no dps check on the fight
You don't have to care about min-maxxing killing boss
This might have been true week 1 or 2
covert prairie
have mythic raids become 10 times easier or ppl i raided with during shadowlands were aids?
red knoll
You right I can interrupt/cc every add set so I should do it
burnt sandal
Ya know I feel like using frenzied regen pre dungeon key is really slept on
red knoll
Just because you have the ability to do something doesnt mean you should be required to
Or expected to
Its reasonable imo to expect others to do their job
burnt sandal
FR then Berserk and enjoy your free shield with your charge back up
edgy merlin
Well that wasnt really the point of the discussion. Of course you should cc every add set or move the boss if it's a choice between wiping or not
still locust
Its reasonable imo to expect others to do their job
It is, but if I can prevent a wipe I will
gleaming steppe
Is there a bug with the current Guardian Druid taunt? I don't use mouseover, but the target I'm hovering over is being taunted.
edgy merlin
And actually if you look it from optimization point of view, it should be you or healers doing the cc while dps only cleave
still locust
Wiping on purpose (which is not what you did) just because "well the dps didn't do their job!" isn't good
forest flume
have mythic raids become 10 times easier or ppl i raided with during shadowlands...
first M bosses in shadowlands were easy as well - its also much easier to gear right now so we're overgearing raids much faster
burnt sandal
Is there a bug with the current Guardian Druid taunt? I don't use mouseover, but...
Shades from waking nightmare occasionally will spawn/hit things you are targeting out of pull. But there isn’t a taunt bug if you are sure you taunted them
gleaming steppe
red knoll
Definitely not lol
edgy merlin
Is everyone on the midnset that ''We will vortex the adds and all dps should kill them before they get out''
or
cleave adds and tank will probably move if they get close
gleaming steppe
edgy merlin
if you are on the first mindset and others on second, obviously they feel like you fucked up
red knoll
We only cleave the big add
Thats our plan
We have 3 Monks 2 locks a frost mage 3 druids
still locust
Is there a bug with the current Guardian Druid taunt? I don't use mouseover, but...
Either you have a macro, or an addon enabling mouseover in the settings
gleaming steppe
This wasn't just about taunt, but there was also an issue where silence suddenly occurred even at distances that were out of range.
still locust
I just tell everyone to "hit the fucking adds, nobody cares about your boss damage if we wipe"
red knoll
Yeah
still locust
Although we're not rekilling it anytime soon most likely
gleaming steppe
I'm not using any add-ons except nsrt. Does nsrt have provocation-related features?
red knoll
Which is wild
edgy merlin
The thing is that there are so many dps players that many will have the mindset that someone else will do something. Usually that someone else is tank in that situation because tank can move the boss
So it might be a bit unfair to only blame you
still locust
I'm not using any add-ons except nsrt. Does nsrt have provocation-related featur...
No, it wouldn't be about taunt. It would be about mouseover itself
lethal elbow
Quick question please, when pulling with moonkin hotw on spread pulls atm I'm mf on each pack then hit it, but I've seen people to say hotw then start hitting them with mf. If I do it that way round would it still get full value if all the packs aren't in combat with me when I first cast it?
red knoll
And then they'll complain the boss wasnt on top of the big add
Which is my fault as well
Lul
still locust
I'm not using any add-ons except nsrt. Does nsrt have provocation-related featur...
Double check your settings here
brave bear
anyone got regrowth macro so it doesnt change your form and works only when proc ?
edgy merlin
but it's the reality what will happen if you dont go through expectations
still locust
anyone got regrowth macro so it doesnt change your form and works only when proc...
Are you playing reinvigoration?
brave bear
Are you playing reinvigoration?
dream of cenarius
red knoll
In our plan moving the boss was supposed to be called out and never expected unless it was the big add
still locust
Yeah I know, I'm asking if you're playing with reinvigoration
red knoll
And i still called that out
still locust
Then my quick-fix doesn't work
red knoll
Since we have infinite rops and knocks
still locust
DoC stacks up to 4 though, and is confused by frenzied regen for a big heal
red knoll
It makes sense
still locust
Do you often shift out of form by pressing regrowth when you don't have a proc?
brave bear
it automatically shifts me out of form if its not proc
still locust
Yes, does that happen to you often?
gleaming steppe
It's not checked. That's strange.
brave bear
Yes, does that happen to you often?
not many times
red knoll
I dont get why boomies can just cast regrowth and not leave form
But we cant
And feral cant
Without shitty procs
red knoll
We can use moonfire
gleaming steppe
Thank you for your opinion. I changed my character to a Death Knight and cleared it without a problem, but I don't know why this problem only occurs in Guardian Druid.
calm vapor
moonfire hasnt been a caster thing since legion
still locust
not many times
Your options are:
1: Make it more visible when it's safe to press regrowth through the cooldown manager
2: Rely solely on frenzied regen using your Dream of Cenarius procs
3: Swap the point out of reinvigoration, and swap dream of cenarius to dreamguide
still locust
Thank you for your opinion. I changed my character to a Death Knight and cleared...
Yeah unsure, there's one more place where you can do mouseover stuff but I genuinely can't remember where it is at the moment
still locust
Vanilla
red knoll
What was broken about it
still locust
Food is done and I don't know if I can quickly find it again
But they had like super-macros that would correctly choose to power shift and mana pot and stuff
And we were hit in the crossfire
No official explanation from blizz, but this is the most likely thing to have prompted it
red knoll
Weird
It was just a form macro
And checked if you had a proc
And were in form or not
If you were in cat and had a proc: regrowth was cast, if not in form and no proc it was also cast, but if you had no proc and in form it just did nothing
red knoll
One weird form thing i wish theyd fix is the owl form hearthstone toy bug where it just
Doesnt work
still locust
inner lark
algathar is a nice place to spend my rolls on a fresh bear right?
inner lark
has puzzlebox too
olive hare
Yeah AA is good for the fast powerspike. But for a fresh bear alt, nothing beats emptying windrunner loot table.
red knoll
Idk i dont like either of those trinkets
Neither are good for raid
But it is a good table
I personally like seat
If ur just emptying a table
It gets you a bunch of tier
still locust
algathar is a nice place to spend my rolls on a fresh bear right?
If you like puzzlebox, AA is good
inner lark
hmm now I have too much choice 🙁
still locust
If you don't WRS is better
inner lark
If you like puzzlebox, AA is good
it's bis for raid right? its just a raid alt
red knoll
Basically if you plan on raiding i would do aa until you get pbox
still locust
it's bis for raid right? its just a raid alt
Then yes, AA for puzzlebox
red knoll
If you got a weapon in that process, go seat imo
Only one trinket and its not that bad
olive hare
Its that 90second damage on use isnt it
red knoll
If you empty out seat its a full armor set and the rings are decent
That or the globule for a defensive option in keys
You'll want gaze/plume for your static anyways
olive hare
The dps one seems decently tuned, was surprised how close it is to similar ilvl statsticks.
red knoll
Yeah
Its very good for mass aoe
Uncapped iirc
I never ended up getting it to test but seems good for damage option for weekly keys
rustic spade
whats the fasest way to get myth crests?
rustic spade
witch achive
shut jasper
the hero achievement is what let's you convert
it's possible to have the myth one and not the hero one
shut jasper
because one is based on average ilvl and the other is by slot
red knoll
Yeah its cuz embellishments exist
shut jasper
my chud dragon at 285 ilvl with champ gloves not being able to uptrade