guardian

[merry quest]

Eh

[frozen yarrow]

Maybe not outside of incarn ig, since you wont be able to stack all the way up to 10

[merry quest]

It does such a small amount of damage you legit get as much just from resetting thrash

[frozen yarrow]

I see yeah

[merry quest]

And end of the day it lets you cap rnt stacks faster if you’re not at 5 yet

So long as you use the reset

[hazy mural]

a trick is to make sure u have LB running when the stacks reset too

but yh doing it at 5 stacks and thrash just being used gives the best damage

[frozen yarrow]

What is the interaction with beam ? Just the increased mastery ?

[merry quest]

Yes

[hazy mural]

yep... so a nice 30 pct amp

[lone canopy]

i try and alternate 1 sunder for 10 stacks during incarn and then a min later out of incarn just for a quick reset usually at low stacks

it's optimal in that reaching 10 stacks is more dot dam and the pop, but more importantly: 10% more dam and 15% more DR from rend and tear that you can layer with beam during giga pulls to go straight goofy

getting some FC procs during that window probably still lets you reach 1mil dps on pulls like 1st AA

[hazy mural]

btw don t shapeshift once u have SR up or else it stops working even when u go back

[lone canopy]

yarp

[frozen yarrow]

If you do so you desync roar and incarn pretty quickly and end up holding roar anyway, don't you ?

[frozen yarrow]

Yeah I saw squish find that out yesterday haha

[fallen isle]

what's the recommended dungeon to bonus roll on guardian?

[lone canopy]

using roar on CD isnt very high prio, and incarn is usually like 2:10-2:30 cd with this build

missing a sunder outside of incarn is a miniscule loss, especially on ST

[hazy mural]

its so annoying... Iactually makes u have to plan ahead

cause I like having a BS during HOTW t oo

[frozen yarrow]

Lmao yeah, or just opt out of wild ig

[hazy mural]

just to be extra sure ill be safe on the turn back to bear

[lone canopy]

the best logs will be like.. 0.66 sunders/min

[frozen yarrow]

Yeah I personnally hold it once in a while for incarn

[lone canopy]

you almost never want to be shapeshifting as EC bear other than on bosses when you know you arent about to take phys dam

only DOTC keeps ironfur stacks when shapeshifting

on high keys trying to use hotw during any aoe pull is just death

[hazy mural]

nah u can be safe if u have a defensive running

[lone canopy]

it's 100% not worth it

[hazy mural]

or use the matted fur trick

LB + matted fur means u get an extra thicc shield

so like LB, BS/SI, Cat, Hotw, Bear

safe as u can be

[lone canopy]

also, don't you owe me 1 mil?

[hazy mural]

nope

wasnt me

I just wanted a share in it xD

[lone canopy]

[frozen yarrow]

Btw I've been away from the game since reset so can't test myself, but did the nerf change anything spec-wise ?

[hazy mural]

u just feel slightly weaker

but will be getting a spike of ilvl so it wont feel like that for long

[lone canopy]

still timing 23s, maybe a.. 8-10% dps loss at the highest end with liver packs, becoming more significant the quicker packs die

fairly significant ursoc's fury and EF nerf to self heals but evidently bear is still capable of the world first keys defensively

still immune during incarn

[hazy mural]

tell that to the defenders

[lone canopy]

i think brew is as good offensively and maybe better defensively across a 3 minute window

buuut.. rdruid is massively out of favour, it's not surviving the top keys, so much of the damage is rot they can't bear form to live

and since brew + mw is a motw loss, and brew + rsham is phys comp favoured, its looking like bear and mw still the meta

sadge

[hazy mural]

Brew and MW can work tbh

[lone canopy]

yeah, it can, but it's just not optimal

[hazy mural]

because of the damage from the MW

it can overcome the motw damage even unless the druid was playing full dam build

[lone canopy]

like any of these can get title obviously

[hazy mural]

only thing u lose is the 1.5 vers def part

[lone canopy]

but i think the top keys still gonna be degenerate bear + mw spin to win

[hazy mural]

just checked druid vs mw and theres almos a 40k difference in damage in pit 22

a bit more than the 3 pct diff from motw

[lone canopy]

rdruid can do giga dam, but they have to give up giga heals

or, a bit of heals

[void magnet]

no rdruid will do that

rat class

[past olive]

Odd question

Do multiple stacks of thrash generate more rage from blood frenzy?

I feel like I’m going nuts, but it does seem like there is more rage?

[trim plaza]

nope, it only scales per target hit max 5, but more haste ticks more rage

[olive hare]

Maybe you got some extra gg procs in between

I mean if you feel like youre onto something, do a 5 minute dummy log, one at 5 thrash stacks and one at 3 stacks, then compare the ressource tab

[lone canopy]

Oh nvm, it’s only the on hit

[brave raft]

Can I first do hc farm and then normal voidspire for duble the shards, or only once per boss regardless of difficulty?

[lone canopy]

You can do both, but the guaranteed drop is only from heroic +

You can do LFR and normal for about a 1/3 drop per boss

I think most efficient is probably 2x NM prey, 4x t11 bountiful delve, then 9x heroic bosses

Gets you a full suite of 15

[hazy mural]

does M+ drop it at 100 pct chance now?

[lone canopy]

ii think for 10+ yeah

or 11?

[south rock]

10

[hazy mural]

guess its time to spam more 10s soon

[pine thistle]

Hello. Does the voidshard upgrade a crafted weapon to ilvl 298 ? or does crafted weapon have lower max ilvl ?

[thorny bloom]

crafted was 295 i think

[oblique badge]

Guys, question...
Do you think 2 rings 6/6hm with haste both, are better than 2 rings 6/6 myth without haste ?

Haste/mastery + Mastery/haste hm
Crit/mastery + Versa/mastery mm

[brave raft]

Can I do delves on +8 for shards, or need to do 11?

[sage dagger]

Depends on the rest of your stats but generally ilvl wins

[trim plaza]

11 is guarantee drop

also has to be bountiful one

[mental geyser]

do we go fluid form to change us back when using hearth of the wild?

[olive hare]

You can, but its not the go-to by any means. You basically get a free rake and a mangle every two minutes > a little extra damage and feels more fluid. I'd never pick it instead of improved stamp roar, but I could see taking it over symbiotic if you like it.

[sullen cove]

do we press more mangle in EC build in M+ now? Also, how do people play ST in keys ?

another question is double arcanoweave or sigil hunt and one arcanoweave?

[trim plaza]

i recommend it

[sullen cove]

in aoe aswell basse?

outside incarn ofcourse. in incarn you would just trash moonfire to lunar i guess ?

[trim plaza]

The thing is what u priorize more

Lb uptime, or more incarn cdr

Cause mangle->more rage-->more incarn cdr, moonfire->lb cdr

Also mangle helps with rage in single target too

And i just like press mangle, its satisfying ability to press, even if its slight aoe dps loss or lunar uptime loss

[lone flare]

we should always press mangle, regardless of build, more rage is good for everything

[lone flare]

not at all, if moonfire isn't empowered you're still better off using mangle, especially as it pertains to single target or prio target

wait until you find out that you have a way to use up exccess rage too!

[white sentinel]

Are the keystone guru routes viable?

[hazy mural]

more LB uptime, more damage and bigger healthpool too... both are fine with apexless tbh

just splitting hairs

[lone flare]

yep

[coral rampart]

Did you put 1 talent point into Maul? What a waste 😁

[lone flare]

we've been over this, it's a measurable difference in single target, and it's still higher in aoe, at the expense of more brain power

all power to those that want to play the less buttons build

but yeah

[lone flare]

raze* actually, not maul

[olive hare]

I mean our apl clearly put mangle off the menu for the common no apex build, even in single target. If that necessarily translates to a m+ run is another question and can only be feelcrafted tbh. I feel like the higher LB uptime more than makes up for the loss in incarn uptime.

[hazy mural]

could u send me the logs of that?

[olive hare]

Does it feel correct? Hell no. But if you dont panic about one less button in your rotation, just ditch it and dont bother the people selling their dislike as advice.

[hazy mural]

where its a clear measurable difference

[lone flare]

I don't have time to dig it out rn, we mathed it out right in this chat, before even the thrash nerf lol

I feel like you were part of that conversation too

[lone flare]

not mangling in the apexless build is not a simple dislike vs. like situation

it's worse, both thrash and mangle have cooldowns, moonfire outside of those if you so please, but more rage is good for the apex-less build too, trying to dance around that seems odd to me

[hazy mural]

cause I've gone through a lot of logs and played with it myself and theres no noticable difference in dmage, u just get more rage and I didnt even notice incarn difference

I still have sub 2 min incarns to the point my feather dosent get used all the time

[olive hare]

I have yet to see either a sim confirming that take or a log showing a measurable difference, napkin math I can do myself for days.

But yeah the debate seems to be between getting extra incarns vs extra lunar beams. I think LB wins. If we at some point face so much melee damage to make an extra fur stack worth it, I'm sold on the spot. But that doesnt seem to be the case even in 23 keys which I'll never reach this season

[trim plaza]

Mangle is fun to press, thats why i press it most of the time, i also throw sundering out of window and take SotF cause i hate that talent

[hazy mural]

thats the point tbh... its not too noticable either way

so its just whichever u fuck with

[olive hare]

ngl SR feels like a worse ROTS from TWW S3. I bet in some devs weird mind it clicked as a functional replacement.

[hazy mural]

like if u like mangle then can take MN and sotf to make it even better

and if u just dont wanna mangle, u untalent those 2 and go SR and a not so good T2 talent

[olive hare]

But then again SR is just 5 thrashes away from being a gg 60second cd. As I said during beta already, ditch the damage portion and make it thrash a couple times convoke-style, that would make it a worthy capstone. (And probs wouldve prevented that silly 200% buff to thrash).

[trim plaza]

U read my mind cause i have both of those lol

SR is just idk, clunky to press, then u need to get 5 stacks first, use it and then gamba for 5 more stacks

[hazy mural]

Gnome shown it to be better last week if ur playing mangle

[trim plaza]

Even if its not crazy dmg boost to get SotF and MN, it still does some dmg xd

[shut jasper]

if you don't have sotf talented it is not worse dps wise

you can dislike it but making fake claims like that is silly

*it's worse dps wise to press mangle that is

[lone flare]

sorry I don't have time to go over chat, just saw ping, why wouldn't you have sotf talented if you're gonna use mangle? like, did we not establish that sundering roar is just....bad.... and so is elune's favored, you have the spare talent points, especially in apexless, but fair, if there's some new math/tech I'm unaware of skimming over the chat

you lot go at it as you will

[shut jasper]

and that's a different discussion

[hazy mural]

the argument is that mangleless mode vs mangle mode dont really change dps eitherway and both are very good at being tanky... u dont have to play one over the other

[shut jasper]

also if we're talking just damage wise the atrociously horrible talent sundering roar beats sotf even on st

if you're just swapping between those 2, if you throw in kb and moonless then sotf's extra rage starts mattering more

[hazy mural]

calling it soft now xD

Soft Mangle

mangle the mobs softly

[trim plaza]

xdd

Also i love the visual of mangle in werebear form, fking backhand slap to face

[shut jasper]

oops

[hazy mural]

too late... meme made

Soft Mangle is a go

[hazy mural]

werebear has so fun animations yh

[shut jasper]

but honestly I think a lot of people overestimate the value of talents that they have a bias towards

when at the end of the day most are quite low impact by themselves

[trim plaza]

Tbh as long as u press trash on cd, u are fine filling with anything

[shut jasper]

yup

[hazy mural]

so what ur saying is all these incarn pilled ppl have stopped my real destiny of using convoke in dungeons?

[shut jasper]

emphasis on most

[trim plaza]

Give me 1 season of convoke instead of incarn in dungeons im in

[hazy mural]

well, too late

[shut jasper]

it's funny

[hazy mural]

now I will take off the yoke of incarn

[shut jasper]

oh you said season not reason

I can't read

[trim plaza]

Lol

[hazy mural]

they could just replace hotw with convoke tbh

does the same thing

[trim plaza]

Btw can we talk about how i had 50% chance to bonus roll myth gaze and didnt get it -_-

[hazy mural]

but would be cooler

[hazy mural]

skill issue tbh

[trim plaza]

Clearly

Next week we go again

[hazy mural]

and here I am needing only 2 more items to be full mythic...

oh and 2 crafted items too with emb

btw can crafted trinkets be improved with the item too? to 295

[lone flare]

yes, tho I don't know if it's worth it

[lone flare]

sure

[hazy mural]

wanna see how the alch stone sims

[lone flare]

lol

better then gaze, surely, yep yep

(I still don't have gaze grumble grumble)

not even hero one

[hazy mural]

same, but I feel so happy

cause I didnt try to get it

got myth HOW anyways and im not bothered if I got the SR trinket or Myth Feather

[lone flare]

guidon is so much nicer than feather tho!

[hazy mural]

sot a myth cloak but its an emb slot, same as bracers

[hazy mural]

which is also from raid

I just refuse to raid

[lone flare]

yeaaaaaaaah

but only from first boss, which is a miserable pug experience

[hazy mural]

didnt even raid for the beetles t rinket back in S1 TWW

even tho it was way better than Mr Taunt Trinket

[lone flare]

I have ptsd when it comes to season 1 of tww

stupid ass spider dungeon trinket

from the first boss on normal difficulties

whatever it was called

egg sac something

[hazy mural]

not a fan of that dungeon

[lone flare]

same

[hazy mural]

ara ara

[lone flare]

yeah that

[hazy mural]

both spider dungeons were not fun for me

[lone flare]

anyway, I got to get back to work, carry on fellow druids

[earnest marsh]

Im trying to keep up with the builds and ideas here and on dreamgrove. Is it correct that the Nopex w/ Raze build is like the inbetween / balanced version that I can safely run in normal keys?

[hazy mural]

yep

can run apex too if u want

[earnest marsh]

Reading through the customization section, it feels like there is a LOT of options right now that are all ok-ish

[hazy mural]

yh, basically, everything works pretty well, but the higher u go, the more nopex takes over due to simplicity of play... the harder it is to fuck up, the better u look

but it dosent mean everything else is bad, it just comes down to what u prefer

[earnest marsh]

Ok thanks. I see no of the builds taking Harnessed Rage, but it is listed as strong and fitting most builds in the customization section. Why is that?

The section also mentions Waking Nightmare as underpowered, but two of the builds take it. Is that because of the Thrash buffs, and the cusotmization section has just not been adapted yet?

[hazy mural]

its more of a DOTC talent as it gives u 2 mangle stacks and mangle has some strong talents in DOTC that makes it hit harder and heal u for 5 pct of ur health each time u use it. on EC it's just not as strong and there are better talents to take than HR

[earnest marsh]

I see. The EC customization sections did not convey that, at least not to me^^

Thanks

[hazy mural]

WN was buffed when thrash was buffed for some reason... it just does very good rng damage (6 pct or so) so its worth that 1 talent point... it thrashes when u thrash but it dosent count as a real thrash, so its just a damage node

[merry quest]

Still in the process of updating

Did the builds, didn’t have time to do much with the text

[hazy mural]

https://tenor.com/view/get-to-work-work-simpsons-smithers-trendizisst-gif-15496843

what are we paying u for!?

[merry quest]

You’re not

[earnest marsh]

Oh ok that makes sense then.

[merry quest]

[earnest marsh]

Meant no offense, I just got confused by the texts vs the builds

[hazy mural]

gratitude counts as payment!

[earnest marsh]

Because it is nice to have builds, but I try to rea the texts about the traddeoffs and talents and tunings to get an idea of why they are suggested like that

[hazy mural]

dw, if theres anything u dont understand, theres a lot of ppl here willing to fill u in!

even if we descend into old ladies bickering

[olive hare]

Bear cave culture. We're either bickering (changes) or hibernating (no changes)

[hazy mural]

always have EW vs TnC to fall back on

[earnest marsh]

So for EC Nopex w/ Raze (which I would prefer I think?), I want WN now, I dont want HR (but I still Mangle?). Is there a way to shift points into the 5% Mastery during Ironfur for more damage? And is the whole Frenzied Regen self heal synergy system via Reinvigoration just no longer worth it?

[shut jasper]

reinvig and similar are kind of preference honestly

[hazy mural]

personally for nopex raze, id go with something like this

[shut jasper]

I think with raze I'd rather have a talent for higher uptime than the 5% mast

[earnest marsh]

That does not have Raze xD

[shut jasper]

since less rage to dump into IF

[hazy mural]

NR is soooo damn good still, and u dont want reinv unless u go DOC instead of DG

[hazy mural]

sorry forgot to move brambles

but yh u move brambles with it xD

its 13 in T3 but its worth it cause all the T2 talents there are really good

[lucid arrow]

gross, buttons to press

[hazy mural]

or are needed as a link to next

[olive hare]

Ayo TnC was a legit one. Greatly assisted in turning negative dmg raze....into less negative dmg raze for EC

[earnest marsh]

So 5% Mastery instead of the 25% Arcane leech compared to the Dreamgrove build

[hazy mural]

its now 15 pct due to nerfs

and 5 pct mastery means almost 5 pct damage

[earnest marsh]

Yes and I like the gameplay of the talent

It is a very nice additional reason to always have IF up

Sounds stupid but it works for me :3

[hazy mural]

oh its very good when u want IFs anyways

[sweet robin]

This look ok when in caster form?

[hazy mural]

👴

dont think anyone would complain if apex turned into TnC

imagine u could go to new pack with TnC up and just raze without needing to think about to if or to raze?

[limber plover]

If i have no way to get into mythic raiding, am i best off just angling for the two windrunner spire trinkets? I have mythic puzzle box elsewise.

[hazy mural]

sorry, not sure what ur asking.. the stats? better to look in bear form, and even then as long as ur using highest ilvl, u should be fine

[torn depot]

it would be interesting if apex was TnC and TOI at same time
next X mauls deal more damage and reduce damage, next X ironfurs deal aoe damage

[earnest marsh]

feels really weird not to take that talent with a build thats so focussed on dealing arcane damage with everything

[sweet robin]

was trying to make sure i balanced them right and didnt hit dim returns too hard

[earnest marsh]

not saying it is wrong, just raging at blizz to make it not worth it

[hazy mural]

if u dont mind the box, u want the heart of wind and box combo... if ur not a fan of it or are full deep into nopex, HOW and FEather combo works very slightly better than box

[sweet robin]

this is in bear form

[limber plover]

What build are you running that isnt "full" nopex, raze KB? Finding it difficult to understand why i do such little damage in comparison to others running full nopex.

[hazy mural]

this is with mitigations on, but u can see how low it is

[earnest marsh]

sadg

[olive hare]

I love the idea. The question is how much power they'd add to it. Fully convinced they just bury the whole wigu thing and search for another hook to carn.

[hazy mural]

oh I do full brainless nopex, but always best to give an account for all situations when giving advice... cause could say puzzyB is the worst cause im expecting ppl to be brainless nopex too but then turns out they like tickling their brain and I just gave the wrong info

[hazy mural]

I think they can just take inspiration from brew apex

[limber plover]

No thats totally fair! Im just struggling to get even above 100k DPS overall in some 15s, even though before with the old DoTC build i was doing that comfortably.

[hazy mural]

u get random TnC from thrash presses, lets say... and everytime u press BS, u get 1 for sure, and everytime ur out of combat and go into combat u get 1 for sure

and stacks up to 2

[hazy mural]

hows ur build atm?

[torn depot]

i was looking into that log, and noticed fury of elune healing which also shows in the hps meters
i just realized it's actually boundless moonlight healing and has nothing to do with fury of elune lol

ngl i kinda dislike how the game now groups things like boundless moonlight, thrash starsurges, efflorescence/verdancy together and i have to look at a log to see the proper contribution of each

[hazy mural]

its a brave new world of fuckery xD

[hazy mural]

ahh the usual no mangle one... btw I'd take out the mangle amp in the class tree

[torn depot]

even if i manually cast a starsurge or it casts through moonkin convoke it's showing as thrash damage

[hazy mural]

free 1 point to use

[torn depot]

even if i dont take the fury of elune talent and use lunar beam, i will get fury of elune hps

[limber plover]

Yeah i tried the mangle one as well, with KB and SotF didnt seem to do much more damage

[olive hare]

Ah I see, I somehow thought you were thinking about the whole interaction with mangle

[torn depot]

it's all messed up lol

[limber plover]

Primal Fury? Yeah i dropped that haha.

[hazy mural]

man, this has been a huge argument so many times that 1 is clearly better than the other when it's clear theres no discernable big damage difference except for how u play and howe much more IF u want xD

[hazy mural]

instincts of the claw

[limber plover]

Oh?

[hazy mural]

it has the TnC icon

[limber plover]

Oh that does maul, gotcha

sorry you mentioned mangle and my brain froze over

[hazy mural]

mangle!?

[limber plover]

Is that the build you run then? Or do you have a different one you prefer entirely?

[olive hare]

I'm a simple man. I want SL S3 tier as apex. Give me carn on barkskin, and instead of that fancy cosmic damage give maul/raze/ravage a decent dps bonus during carn. No need that fancy wigu junk, all I need is them to make maul great again.

[hazy mural]

yh thats the one I run... tried all of em and they dont really make any noticable difference... mangle one might be slightly better ST if u play it perfectly

[limber plover]

Yeah thats how i felt

[hazy mural]

I want OG thrash starsurges back

and I want it to spit out more starsurges too

[olive hare]

That nonsense nerf 'fix' is still unforgiven.

Especially that pooppile of a bluepost comment trying to justify it.

[lucid arrow]

Additional Guardian Adjustments
To support the new playstyle direction, we're streamlining several abilities:
Mangle has been removed. Its damage has been baked into Thrash.
Maul has been removed. Rage is now spent automatically when you cast Thrash.
Moonfire is no longer available to Guardian Druids. Its periodic damage component has been incorporated into Thrash's bleed.
Swipe has been removed. Thrash now hits all nearby targets (this was already the case, but we wanted to make it official).
Raze has been folded into Thrash. Thrash now hits up to 5 targets in a frontal cone and a circle around you. We are aware this is just a bigger circle.
Incarnation: Guardian of Ursoc now simply causes Thrash to have no cooldown for 30 seconds. The bear form visual is unchanged.

[past olive]

https://tenor.com/view/bonk-doge-gif-24837098

[grave lodge]

There's the one button rotation for everyone who wants that play style 🤞

[azure ibex]

Remember in ptr when each split star surge also gave lunation CDR and we had giga uptime on beam

That was neato

[hazy mural]

was fun in ptr, yh

[azure ibex]

11.2 PTR had some wacky fun broken stuff for a bit

[hazy mural]

kinda how the nopex build is now

can get 60pct+ LB uptime xD

[azure ibex]

Pwarr was doing BDK healing

[olive hare]

The hilarious thing is, it wasnt even broken on ptr. Just a fun interaction. Cant tell me that lunar beam cooldownception wouldve magically turned us into protwarriors.

'more powerful than intended' my fluffy rear end, the devs just had zero clue how good it would turn out and decided to just nuke the interaction

[noble ledge]

Read through tazzers message and I am not understanding the last bit at all

[serene gyro]

What do we think these days for trinket combos for M+? I don't have access to mythic gaze or gloom.

[calm comet]

yo guys, fresh char where should i use my rerolls in +10 keys

[hazy mural]

[hazy mural]

WS is best for a new bear for sure... u get a wep, 2 good trinkets, 3 tierpieces and a neck and belt thats good too

[olive hare]

TWW S3 tier bonus had a chance on thrash to blast a starsurce, which cleaved onto 4 extra targets. On ptr that starsurge just like its cleaves used to interact with lunation lunar beam cooldown reduction. They nerfed this thing twice, first the cleave surges no longer affected LB cdr, then they made the inititial surge not work with lunation as well. Followed by this:

[calm comet]

❤️

thanks g

[hazy mural]

the WS trinket combo is good if u cba for raid

[olive hare]

On a sidenote: Flashing claw thrash procs did affect lunation still, which was technically the same thing as with those surge procs.

[hazy mural]

AA has the box if u play a more burst build too

[hazy mural]

np! ❤️

[outer cave]

In 16 seat before the 3rd boss i took the 2 big guys down the hill and then pulled the pack with the 2 casters + guy who makes circle that shoots balls and ppl died said cant do that. Why cant do that pull or you can and they just bad?

[hazy mural]

thats a bit of a tough pull yh... the guys who make the shooting balls also suck ppl off and it hurts

[outer cave]

Is it the sucker that can be removed with movement abilities like tigers lust (same as the 4 guys before boss 1)?

[hazy mural]

nah, they mimic the 3rd boss's ability to suck 3 ppl off at the same time, except they do it to 1 guy

those guys just do a channel on all 5 with the circle u can remove with snare removal

[outer cave]

Hmm ok. So what are you supposed to pull with the 2 big guys? It seems slow with only them

[hazy mural]

they are the subjugators and the ones in Boss 3 room are shadow weavers

[rustic kestrel]

no it was a BUG THEY SAID SO

[sage dagger]

2 big guys + casters or just play the big guys

[hazy mural]

u can skip em with lock gate or aug if u really hate em, or can pull em with the 2 patrolling voidbenders too

[sage dagger]

Seat timer is pretty free as long as you aren’t dying

[hazy mural]

pugs tend to be bad at defensive usage

and those mobs are pretty chill since u know when to defensive

oh I got a big circle on me? time to use my wall

those that dont are at their swift death

[olive hare]

Okay. If so, our current EC talent Star Cascade is also bugged and I kindly ask you rehabilitate that dreaded bug excel sheet Sir

[hazy mural]

https://tenor.com/view/slice-execute-admiral-leader-admiral-general-aladeen-gif-21000903

[rustic veldt]

whats the best way to upgrade items to 298 now? or fastest

[hazy mural]

fastest?

but can do some M+ and get 1 each time

and if ur a decent tank, can make the dungeons fast af

[sage dagger]

Do your bountiful delves, 2 nightmare preys and then farm M+ or maybe heroic raid with a good group

[hazy mural]

Pit is a very fast dungeon too

[olive hare]

Yeah you can do wild stuff in 12s (dont do 10s, affix distracts)

[hazy mural]

did mine in 10-11s... was such a pain with those balls

[brave raft]

Is the shard guaranteed from +10 or +12?

[olive hare]

Yeah balls and the focus add, those are annoying af. The others are sorta okayish

[torn depot]

10+

[hazy mural]

10 at least

[torn depot]

lvl 10+ keys, heroic/mythic raid bosses, nightmare prey, t11 bountiful delves

[rustic kestrel]

YUP, ITS ALL A BUG

I lost it when they called the obvious interaction a bug

[olive hare]

I bet the dev in charge was making that classic twitch emotional face when he wrote that

https://tenor.com/view/shocked-surprised-gasp-what-cat-shock-gif-17800533426298923867

something like this

[wide pelican]

Good afternoon guys, im new here and just wanted to ask if upgrading Gaze of the Alnseer (i only have hero 6/6) is worth it compared to other trinks?

[rustic kestrel]

yes

[hazy mural]

if u wanna be sure, can sim it ofc

[olive hare]

Those upgrade items arent timegated btw, you can farm a ton of those, depending on how much time you have. So its not like with sparks where a bad investment couldve come back to haunt you

[wide pelican]

Oh!? thats good to know, thought it was an important decision xD

[torn depot]

if you're running endgame content regularly you will be swimming in those shards soon

so yes, always worth to upgrade

[olive hare]

Yeah I think Blizz just had enough of the timegate shitstorms in S1 and as a result resisted their urge of weekly capping those

[hazy mural]

what if u cant swim?

will u drown in the shards?

[olive hare]

bring a DK, problem solved

[rustic kestrel]

nope, you can sell them for 50g each ;)

[hazy mural]

big

[torn depot]

you will drown in gold instead

[olive hare]

inbe4 another bait goldguide video
(c)thraun

[hazy mural]

a good way to go

as long as its not boiling gold

like poor viserys

[worn geode]

Now that guardian is F tier how are you guys feeling about apexless

[noble ledge]

📝 🐛

[olive hare]

bro was built like a toothbrush and tried pimping his sis to some bad mf's. One could say darwinism had him down for the count.

[hazy mural]

oh he deserved even worse xD

the bad guys never get to suffer enough

[olive hare]

Ramsay shouldve gotten worse agreed 100%. The stuff he did shook me and I've chilled through most of the episodes

[noble ledge]

https://tenor.com/view/a-gif-2134511396229998879

Chinchilla bear form when?

[hazy mural]

I love that actor, hes such a lovely person as well

u seen the coldplay skit?

[olive hare]

Incredible acting it was yeah! which skit? I dont think so

[rustic kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/tardigrade-waterbear-indestructable-gif-6060180

[hazy mural]

sent it to u

even has Liam Neeson as the narrator xD

[noble ledge]

Tardigrade?

[rustic kestrel]

yeah

water bear

[noble ledge]

Crazy idea, Blizzard should write it down

[olive compass]

arent they capped at 20 this week

[rustic kestrel]

I havent heard of any cap

[versed gorge]

Man i gotta log off windrose and get some of these upgrade things lmao

Im so hard addicted to that shit

[light breach]

worth to press the +50% maul on ST instead of normal moonfire?

[shut jasper]

even with no maul buff talents it's worth on 4p proc yeah

add in KB and it's always worth pressing for damage at 60+ rage

[vapid heart]

keep on mauling, 1-2 ironfur stacks and be happy.

[lucid arrow]

is it really?

i dont see anyone using it in their logs

like not even pressed once

even mangle gets a dozen casts

[forest flume]

doesnt mean its not good to do it, people are stacking vers because it has "damage reduction" on its tooltip even though the math people did here shows mastery better defensively

[lucid arrow]

whats the math on maul then

[shut jasper]

I tried it on the sims, it's a gain but not a massive one

[forest flume]

no clue if that was done

[lucid arrow]

im working on the assumption if it was worth pressing, the top players would pick it up and start pressing it

[shut jasper]

it's like sub 1% and you lose on some ironfur stacks

[lucid arrow]

no point then

[shut jasper]

while yes it's worth it's also just fine to skip

[forest flume]

new bear: don't use brain

[lucid arrow]

better to pool for ironfur and lunar beam cdr

[shut jasper]

and requires you to pay attention to 4p cause just sending maul isn't worth

[lucid arrow]

so basically not worth unless you've optimized everything else and have the spare bandwidth to track one more thing

[hazy mural]

its more of a playstyle thing... if ppl want more to think about then they can change the talents to fit it... not worth doing for sure if ur not going KB anyways

[forest flume]

we need another 25-50% nerf to thrash

maybe next week

[hazy mural]

https://tenor.com/view/slice-execute-admiral-leader-admiral-general-aladeen-gif-21000903

[forest flume]

at least until we can stop saying "it could be a mini-tiny-weenie gain to use your actual generators / spenders"

its like if you were playing sub rogue and it was a dps loss to use your combo points

[quaint pond]

hm sounds like better to get rid of maul so you don't have to worry about not using it

[hazy mural]

regress to pre DF changes

[forest flume]

given its the very top node, they'd have to redo the tree lol

[hazy mural]

also bring back the thrash spam of incarn

[forest flume]

playing monk has really changed you

[hazy mural]

thats what happens when u drink a fuck ton of beer

[toxic comet]

How good is gaze on defensive perspective?

[cinder nacelle]

Realistically? Alittle bit better than other stat sticks unless you armor cap at which point it presumably becomes a little bit worse

[toxic comet]

I got only heroic haste proc from spire and crit from skyreach. Thinking am i totally cucked

But probably no

[fair junco]

That's what I rock

well, myth track, but that's what I use

[clever quartz]

How bad does the healing off arcane damage nerf hurt our survivability? I've been afraid to Q into push keys since that happened lol

[rustic kestrel]

well it was like 60% overheal

so

it means nothing

[torn depot]

The nerfs are not very noticeable

[clever quartz]

Interesting I felt a noticeable amount squishier in nexus point on the heal absorb pulls in 12s (and I've timed it on a 17 pre nerf) but I guess it's uniquely bad there or maybe I was just playing bad lol.

[quaint pond]

that's not a problem just replace the maul node with thrash node

[forest flume]

if thats how they want the game to be played can't do much about it

[violet holly]

replace with starmaul

[forest flume]

at this point we may as well not even have abilities, just have our characters autocast everythiing and we move around

[steel vault]

Is there anyway to tell what items you've got from a dungeon on the void rolls, so that you won't get another? E.g. In spire, I got feather in vault, so I might get that in the dungeon, but I got the shoulder in there, so I won't get shoulder again. I think I did some other rolls too, anyway to check which items are blocked from rolls in a dungeon?

[tulip lodge]

no

[violet holly]

not really by default

there are some addons that allow you to tag items as bonus rolled

[forest flume]

it shows on the bonus roll when it happens, not sure if addons can check for a specific dungeon

[violet holly]

like keystoneloot

and I think either plumber or enhanceQoL has a little box that it tracks your bonus rolls

[tulip lodge]

there should be as this is exposed via api. but you need an addon that can track your pools into cache BEFORE you pull

[violet holly]

but you needed to have them do that from the start I guess

[rustic kestrel]

new apex talent: when you enter combat a Runescape Window pops up, and thats how you interact with combat

[forest flume]

that's too complex still

[tulip lodge]

question about the voidstrom weapon/trinket upgrade system. if you have trinkets that hare 6/6 hero, im aware you CAN upgrade them. My question is, is the max upgrade level different between a 6/6 hero and a 6/6 mythic and if so, does anyone know what it is?

[violet holly]

it gives +9 ilvl to the item

[tulip lodge]

ty

[forest flume]

i upgraded my heroic gaze and it went from 276 to 285

i have measures in place where if people see me in a mythic raid, they are free to call the police to come pick me up because clearly that means I'm not doing well

[red knoll]

Not having mythic gayz

SMH

[forest flume]

not playing mini-game content sadly

[red knoll]

Not playing m+?

[forest flume]

I'm not raiding

[red knoll]

But m+ is the minigame

[rustic kestrel]

My bench bluff got called and i had to prog for 2 weeks and its finally going to end today

[red knoll]

O.o

[rustic kestrel]

now I can get back to real content

[forest flume]

not to me, no lol

er, that was meant as a reply to "but m+ is the minigame"

[red knoll]

I mean objectively it is

[forest flume]

is it though

how many people come here for raiding questions vs m+ questions

[red knoll]

I dont think player count is the metric for what is the minigame

They do balancing largely around raiding

Which is how we got in this mess

[rustic kestrel]

unfortunately

[forest flume]

until they get their head out of their asses and realize that static 20-man is stupid and lockouts are even more stupid, it is a mini-game

[red knoll]

Lockouts are stupid but idk if i agree with 20 being stupid

[tame otter]

Raid tanking is a meme and its why more people ask m+ question. It's the more engaging content as a tank

[violet holly]

best minigame is trying to get a 100 parse in lfr

with a random group

[forest flume]

have you raid lead / managed a CE guild on a dead ass server in the past, alliance side? that's how I got there

[violet holly]

in a friday or something

[lament dock]

This. Raid tanking is an absolute joke compared to tanking M+

[red knoll]

Alliance has more population

O.o

[forest flume]

keyword, "in the past"

[red knoll]

Like pre cata?

[violet holly]

wrong faction though

[hazy mural]

raiding made me toxic.. me no raid anymore

[forest flume]

I am so burned out of raiding that there is no saving me lol

[forest flume]

Wut

[red knoll]

Alliance took over in cata

By a lot

[forest flume]

?

[red knoll]

Horde hasn't had more population since wotlk

[forest flume]

I'm talking about raiding at a CE level

im watching wowprogress of the expansions I'm talking about (ie: BFA/SL/DF (ok in df they made it xfaction)), and top 100 there is a lot of red

that is when I got mentally destroyed

[red knoll]

Top 100 sure

[forest flume]

and it top 100 is all red

it trickles down

I don't think you understand how hard it was to recruit people on a dead alliance server even in SL. I had to pay people out of my own pocket to transfer

[red knoll]

I dont see what the faction has to do with it tho tbh

Dead server is dead

[forest flume]

remember that M+ was not cross faction as well

at prime time there were like 10x more keys on Horde, people didn't want to switch lol

anyway, all that to say that i got burned out by raiding and theres no coming back, gg

[red knoll]

You right spamming thrash way more engaging

[earnest marsh]

Its the more engaging content period. It really feels like it is what the game is designed to be as well. Utility, movement, aggro, off healing, pull ranges etc. There are so many random things in the game that actually matter in M+ and can be utilized to push a tiny bit more vs the static choreography of raid that ignores half of the game and half of the kits. </rant>

[red knoll]

Hard disagree

High level keys devolve into comp and cheese

[rustic kestrel]

raid tanking is usually only engaging if you're in an early mythic guild before gear trivializes it all

[lament dock]

Are we pretending any tank rotation in the game is difficult right now? Because thats a world of make-believe you're living in.

Living pulls, planning a route, pulling around CDs, etc are all significantly more engaging/harder in a +18 than Mythic raid right now for tanks. I can sleepwalk through raid.

[red knoll]

Its more difficult than pressing thrash

[earnest marsh]

Most high level content devolves into comp and static strategies. The question is how much and what there is to do within those strategies.

[forest flume]

can't wait until they make raid trinkets available for people who don't want to raid, if we're making the game brain dead to appeal to the fortnite crowd, why not do this as well

[lament dock]

Tanking in raid boils down to watch a debuff on your cotank, standing in the same place at the same time every single pull, and pressing taunt when you're supposed to, while you do your rotation on what is essentially a training dummy

[red knoll]

You havent raided in a while then

[forest flume]

Raids haven't changed in forever lol

[tame otter]

What does this have to do with the content being boring? having a more complex rotation in raid doesn't mean raid tanking itself isn't boring

[red knoll]

Lots of raid haters it seems

[lament dock]

Lmao brother, what world do you live in? Tanks have had the same job in raids since AT LEAST as far back as Legion. It's significantly easier than any other role in the raid group, and significantly easier than M+ keys of "equal" difficulty proportionally.

Pretending otherwise is honestly hilarious to say

I love raid. Its just significantly easier to tank than M+. That's just a statement of fact

[red knoll]

I dont find it to be true at all. Both are easy to me, easier than healing, but dps have it easy in all content much more than tanks do

[lament dock]

When is the last time a tank was the reason your prog stalled?

[rustic viper]

I dont hate raid tanking, in fact I like it, yet it is in fact very simple in most scenarios

[red knoll]

Saladhar last tier

[lament dock]

Then your tanks are shit? What could they possibly have fucked up on Saladbar

[red knoll]

????

[tame otter]

Dimensius is harder to tank than Saladbar what

[lament dock]

This

[red knoll]

We didnt prog dimmy

[lament dock]

My point stands then

?

[red knoll]

???

[lament dock]

What did they struggle with on Saladbar

[red knoll]

Living

[lament dock]

LOL

[rustic viper]

blame healers 🗣️

[red knoll]

Your point is that a braindead person could tank any mythic raid fight and im telling you thats not true

This braindead person could not

[tame otter]

Nobody said that bro

you're fighting shadows

[red knoll]

Easier than dps x.x sure

[lament dock]

Literally no one said this lmfao

[proper slate]

It does kind of seem like the horde has been in decline for a few expansions

[rustic viper]

braindead person might struggle, anyone willing to put any effort into learning their class will not

[forest flume]

Ever since they made end-game content cross-faction, ya

specially guilds

[ripe bear]

I love when people say tanking raid is so easy/boring, they are almost always just tanking heroic or maybe a few mythic bosses.

[lament dock]

As always, you cant refute the actual point someone makes against you, so you write up some absolutely ridiculous statement and argue against that instead

[red knoll]

It was in decline long before that

As always you reply with saying "nut uh"

[lament dock]

Literally every time I see you arguing in this chat (2 or 3 times a day it seems) you do the same shit

[red knoll]

So

[proper slate]

Why did that result in more players rolling/playing Alliance?

[red knoll]

Not worth arguing in good faith

When your response is always that

[forest flume]

horde races are ugly, and dwarf / nelf racials are more useful in m+ (the real content)

[proper slate]

Like I get they have better racials.... Buuut

[tame otter]

The argument is that m+ is far and away the more engaging and popular content for tank players and raid is significantly easier

[red knoll]

Horde races are way cooler than alliance

Lmao

[red knoll]

Yeah we in the minority here. Not worth arguing with bad faith actors

[forest flume]

well that seems not true

[proper slate]

They're not all ugly... they've got their elves too

[forest flume]

The last raid I've done is Amirdrassil - have raids gotten exponentially harder for tanks since then?

[red knoll]

Yes?

[ripe bear]

i would say it's easier to run M+ at a difficultly appropriate to your skill/gear level, where as raid is much harder to actually get to the content that would be challenging for any number of reasons. basically M+ has a much lower barrier to entry than raid does for tanks

[lament dock]

Lol no, they havent

[forest flume]

I think I'm just going to put this rip shred guy on ignore

there done

[lament dock]

They haven't gotten significantly harder for tanks since BFA

Shit, Legion even

Your only real mechanics as a tank are "Put boss here, taunt at this stack count" as always

Beyond week 4 it's barely even a struggle to live tank busters until you're progging last 2 bosses of Mythic most tiers

[ripe bear]

raids have gotten steadily harder and more "involved" for all roles as the expansions have gone on and the base level of skill of the player base rises. That doesn't mean every raid in a xpack is harder than the previous, but it does mean when you compare t1 of a xpack to t1 of a later xpack they are more often more involved and more diffcult the later you get into the xpacks

[red knoll]

Ignoring me for saying raiding has gotten harder when it literally has

Lmfao

[red knoll]

Only real mechanic in m+ is interrupt and cc, tank mobs here.

[lament dock]

I don't think I agree here. If you compare from Vanilla through Cata to now? Yes.

But if you are looking at modern WoW (post-Legion) I don't feel like that's the case. This tier is no harder than tier 1 of TWW. In some ways its significantly easier

[red knoll]

Wow look I boiled it down as well

[lament dock]

Literally untrue. You have to route, pull around CDs, respond to significantly more dynamic changes through mistakes/random targeting of abilities, your defensive CDs are used more dynamically. Your route can change every run depending on your comp. Like... I don't get why you're fighting air right now lil bro. You're so wrong it's actually embarrassing, just take the L

[ripe bear]

i would agree if you don't take the addon change into consideration, but if you take t1 of the TWW with raid addons and WAs compared to t1 of midnight with the raid addons still allowed, keeping in mind we are talking about the ones easily accessible and used by to the average player it is considerably harder, for the average player.

If it's easy for you, then you might just be playing at a difficulty not commiserate with your gear/skill level

[red knoll]

Almost like there's more to raiding than your bland take.

You just magically come up with reasons to hate raiding. Get over yourself

They're the same

[lament dock]

I'm doing Mythic prog, so unfortunately there's not a whole lot higher I can go lol. But yeah, I will allow that removing WAs made things more difficult for most people

[tame otter]

That doesn't say much about the content itself. M+ has more variables. By pull 10 on a raid boss the dance will be the same every single time for a tank unless the group changes.

[lament dock]

Bahahah, point to the message I sent where I said I hate raid. I love raid. It's just inarguably easier than M+

[lament dock]

There isn't

[ripe bear]

you can go a whole lot higher than mythic prog. are you topp 1000? top 500? there is a huge difference clearing mythic content in the first few weeks as opposed to 2 months later with all the nerfs and gear increases

[red knoll]

Thats not even remotely true

[tame otter]

You just love straw manning huh

[red knoll]

M+ is always the same.

Just like raid

[steel vault]

how many folks here using moonless night (more damage) instead of reinvigorate (fr gives regrowth and rejuv). Anyone trading less FR heals for more dps via moonless night, and how do you like it? I seen a few bears trading those off.

[lament dock]

He does it quite literally every argument. Its why half the discord has him blocked

[noble ledge]

My gamemode is better than your gamemode

[red knoll]

Yall just dont like raid, dont act like its easier

[lament dock]

All he does is whine and bitch and pick fights that he loses

[red knoll]

Is bro still responding to me?

[rustic kestrel]

[lament dock]

[fair junco]

Right now for the content that I am doing, 12s, with a pug healer, I tend to take reinvig, because my friends (dps) are pumping and I can pull bigger for them to pump

[rugged minnow]

Calling raids the same after 10 pulls while m+ is literally homework with resilient keys now, is funny

[red knoll]

As someone who tanks both on the higher end of players theyre both equally difficult

[rustic kestrel]

those are two seperate sections of the tree

[ripe bear]

I'd agrue M+ has less variable, 15 huge big ones. It is far far far easier to find 4 players at or around your skill level than it is to find 19.

[rustic kestrel]

they arent exactly interchangeable

[lament dock]

I play at the level my schedule allows for, given that I work more than full time. That means CE roughly halfway through the season with my guild. At that pace raid has never once been as challenging as M+ for me to tank. That is my only point, regardless of what words the little crybaby keeps trying to put in my mouth

[tame otter]

Bro I'm not arguing about the spreadsheet difficulty. Like obviously it's easier to find 4 other people than 19?

[hazy mural]

which regrowth do u take btw? DOC or DG?

[ripe bear]

thats fine, i'm not criticizing that, just saying there is a whole lot further you could go on the difficulty scale than just "clearing mythic", for what ever the reason, you don't and that is fine, just saying it exists

[lament dock]

At any point in the season, if you take a raid encounter that is supposed to be equally as difficult as its M+ counterpart, you will find the M+ content harder than the raid content as a tank. That's truly not something subjective

[fair junco]

I take the one I cast most of the time

[ripe bear]

so we are only talking about the difficulty you are specifically cherry picking?

[marsh bluff]

Is anyone here also using ultradon trinket?

[fair junco]

not the automatic one sorry, I forget which is which

[proper slate]

I hate active trinkets buuuuut if they don't have a cast time I guess I could macro them in

[tame otter]

Are you that claw guys alt account? Just saying the actual content you play is easier in raid and M+ is more engaging for tanks.

[marsh bluff]

It was my first hero piece since beginning of the season and I havetn found a reason to replace it

[rustic kestrel]

its pretty bad

[marsh bluff]

Dmg wise? Yeah but it's like a 90% shield

[tame otter]

I don't care about the larping as a burger king manager for a video game. If you find that interviewing, recruiting, and managing 20 people is part of the content then cool you can add that to your "why raid tanking is fun" list.

[oblique moat]

who the heck is claw guy

[ripe bear]

no i'm my own person. i'm saying that if raid is "easy" you are not raiding at the level that is appropriate for your gear or skill level. For whatever reason, and there are many that are perfectly valid. If raid is "easy" you are not raiding at a high enough level for it to be difficult for you. that does not mean it's easy, that means you are taking the easy route

[marsh bluff]

I just can't find anyone else who's using it to see if it's worth upgrading it to ascendent

[oblique moat]

it's not

[high path]

i bet he rips into people

why are we fighting this time

[red knoll]

Watn

[ripe bear]

gotcha, go back to single player games and brag about how good you are to the zero people who care

[red knoll]

Oh

[oblique moat]

shield is nice but not really necessary

[noble ledge]

M+ vs Raids difficulty

[red knoll]

People saying how much better m+ is than raid

When theyre both the same

[high path]

oh

[rugged minnow]

People raiding at WR1500 thinking it's easy because they outgear content by 30 ilvls and 15 nerf waves. As usual

[high path]

ye the most popular content is transmog runs guys

sorry

[red knoll]

Yeah

[high path]

none of us are relevant

[red knoll]

That I agree with

[high path]

i think the most popular forum psot atm

[lament dock]

The argument is that raiding AT AN EQUIVALENT LEVEL as the respective M+ key level is easier for tanks. That is the entire argument. Any additional details have been supplied in bad faith by you or Shred.

The one and only argument originally made was that M+ was harder to tank when doing equivalent level content

[ripe bear]

both are diffuct in their own ways, anyone who says one is "easy" is just not doing that content at a level that would be difficult for their skill/gear. Like ... i could say M+ is easy because 10s are really really easy, that just means i need to move past 10s to find where it becomes difficult

[marsh bluff]

Ya it makes doing my 17s a lot easier. Is there another one that also gives a a shield?

[tiny pine]

Out of ~57 trinkets, it's ranked 48th. Depending on build and target size (Based on EC M+ with 5 targets)

[high path]

is people complaining about the removal of pet battle

the

true content

[red knoll]

Lul

[marsh bluff]

How do u find the stats on it

[red knoll]

And yet we still have pet battle and pvp weekly events

[fair junco]

@hazy mural should i be playing the automatic regrowth? Why did you ask?

[red knoll]

WEEKLY EVENTS

[high path]

eh, idt that's really true

[tiny pine]

https://liquidarmory.com/trinket-tracker?wowClass=Druid&wowSpec=Guardian

[high path]

it's a reduction that ignores that

[marsh bluff]

Ty

[hazy mural]

DOC is the dream of cenarius one where u can manually cast regrowth on ppl with the procs for 230 pct extra healing, and DG is where it automatically regrowths ppl for 200 pct healing when it has procs

[high path]

equivalent level can mean 17 different things

[rugged minnow]

I'm curious. What does "equivalent level" mean? CE = M+15?

CE = M+12?

[red knoll]

DG is only 100% healing btw

[ripe bear]

i never added any additonal details, i just said, and have maintained, that if raiding is "easy" you are not raiding at a level commiserate with your skill or gear. It's not easy that is patently false, the content one might do could be easy for them, but that doesn't make the content as a whole easy

[lament dock]

You're allowed to feel that way. It is an objective fact. You can feel free to disagree with it all you want. I honestly couldn't give a fuck at this point lol

[high path]

do you mean heroic vs +10s or do you mean ce, or wr500 or hof

[oblique moat]

objective fact

[hazy mural]

main reason im asking is cause with the reinv talent, theres a bug where if u use fr on urself, the procs of DG regrows get used up and dosent boost the healing of it... so u wanna use DOC if u use Reinv

[noble ledge]

I Raid the cave in Emerald Dream for bear look, it takes same motivation to do as Raids and M+ so obviously my content is harder

[rugged minnow]

Objective, lol

[high path]

okay nice

[rugged minnow]

And also lmao

[high path]

'i'm just correct'

[lament dock]

I've tanked up to Lura on Mythic and timed everything on 19s. The 19s are harder

[red knoll]

Yeah he been doing this and I just stopped

[lament dock]

To tank

[fair junco]

i see! thank you!

[red knoll]

He tried to put it on me

Lol

[hazy mural]

np! ❤️

[red knoll]

His arguments are "nut uh!"

[rugged minnow]

Well, finally an example. Still subjective though

[high path]

okay but like

saying

'i think ti's harder'

isn't objective

like

that's not how words work

[rugged minnow]

I agree 19s can be difficult, not really picking one side or the other. Personally I hate all the busywork around m+ once you start doing keys that are no longer "press W key", aka 19s

[high path]

now you wanna tell me that this tier for healing is the most boring shit imagineable

i'm 100% with you

[lament dock]

I truly cant imagine the mental gymnastics you have to do to think taunting when a debuff reaches a certain amount of stacks, while standing in a specific part of the circular arena at the right time is harder than doing a key of the equivalent difficulty level lol. But, whatever you have to tell yourself

[tame otter]

That's what makes it more engaging though and some people like that

[rugged minnow]

I would like to point out that Blizzard has been making tanking more involved in raiding lately, which is nice

[red knoll]

No i promise dispels are super engaging content

[rugged minnow]

Oh yeah I 100% agree. It's just not something I like

[high path]

and that reductionist description can't be done to keys becaaaaaaaause

[fair junco]

also i lied, I am running DC, and no reinvig atm. So I am avoiding the bug anyways

[lament dock]

I want the record to show, I've never once argued which is more fun or engaging. I have always strictly been talking about difficulty for the tank alone

[red knoll]

Cuz he said so

[high path]

'oh no it's so difficult to pull according to the map on my second monitor and do my rotation, and stun the mob that i marked'

[hazy mural]

u liar!

[high path]

if you wanna do fact

i want facts

like

numbers

not just

'i did it it's harder'

cause that's not how it works

[ripe bear]

if you think raid is easy, you need to do harder raids or get to the bosses earlier. The same as if you think M+ is easy you need to do higher keys. it's really just that simple. People pretending or having convinced themselves that raiding is easy just aren't raiding at a level that would be diffuclt for them for whatever reason.

[high path]

plus again what does equivalent level means

[tame otter]

For me it's one in the same. If i'm not being challenged i'm not going to be engaged and the raid ceiling is way lower than m+

[red knoll]

Its like saying week 1 16s are easy

[high path]

do you mean 19 now or 19 3 weeks ago lu'ra pre nerf or post nerf

at what gear level

etc etc

[red knoll]

When you did them week 6

[crimson sandal]

+2s are hard. Don't @ me

[ripe bear]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-true-kramer-seinfeld-gif-6564373007119861775

[high path]

difficulty is subjective to a degree so sure

[hazy mural]

necrotic wake +2

[noble ledge]

The hardest thing I did this expansion is trying to convince Billy to not cleave everyone with dreadbreath

[hazy mural]

that 3rd boss aint ever dying

[noble ledge]

And once Billy learns its samanthas turn

[lament dock]

Sure, when is the last time a tank bricked your key making a mistake? When is this last time a tank prevented you from progging a boss in raid? Pretty easy to see that tanks cost keys significantly more frequently than they prevent raid prog. That's because their job isnt as hard in raid, lmfao. But either way, I'm done with this argument. Yall literally just keep saying the same shit. Shreds whole argument hinged on the fact that he somehow couldn't live the tankbuster on Saladbar, so clearly raid was super hard (lol)

[high path]

hardest thing this tier so far is for my dps to turn on their monitor and dodge shit on the ground

[noble ledge]

"come on samantha, you can do it Giiirl"

[noble ledge]

[lament dock]

Thats fine for you. Wasn't the argument I was making and Shred kept strawmanning before I blocked him, so I want to make sure my point is clear

[high path]

that's not a fact ? that's just you pointing out that the cost of failure for tanks is much higher than other roles

it's also extremely funny to say that this tier

[oblique moat]

you keep saying you're done and then continue typing

[ripe bear]

claims anecdotes are evidence ✅
leaves the discussion when called out ✅

[high path]

given that a lot of bosses are actually dependent on tanks not fucking up mechanics outside of taunt swapping

so like

idk

[crimson sandal]

But like "you keep using the same arguement" is funny when its the correct take and you just want to be stubborn

[high path]

that doesn't really work

[violet holly]

when are we going to talk about why is there an archeology trainer in silvermoon

[high path]

plus again

[crimson sandal]

Discrimination laws

[high path]

no one explained to me why my version of keys are easy is incorrect

but for real

blizzard sunsetting pet battle

criminal

f u blizz

[ripe bear]

https://tenor.com/view/real-talk-for-real-honestly-truth-true-gif-14191772

[violet holly]

funniest part is some pets from this xpac can fight etc but most are just cosmetic

[oblique moat]

hey nobody is engaging with this system we haven't made new content for so we're getting rid of it

[violet holly]

they are slowly pulling the plug on battle pets

[red knoll]

Hardest thing this tier was sitting out heroic week 1 so they could trial other tanks and having to dps averzian and prog for 2 hours 😢

Cuz they didnt understand tic tac toe

[violet holly]

also the achievements to beat every trainer with every team of same element pets is so bad

[red knoll]

Was a big wtf moment from me

[violet holly]

good they moving away

[hazy mural]

didnt nintendo make like a copyright or something about creature fighting?

[violet holly]

it didnt chance much from what it was though, since you just throw the box now

I think the nintendo shit was just about the mechanic of throwing a thing

[hazy mural]

and making em fight

[red knoll]

Yeah it was mostly the Nintendo thing

[violet holly]

but not in regards of beating the shit out of the creature until its weak enough

[hazy mural]

think the fight bit was what was so stupid xD

[violet holly]

but maybe it is idk

[olive hare]

@hazy mural Just finished watching that Coldplay GoT musical video, you's my favorite bear of the week for sharing it Shat myself when Reek and Ramsay met, its crazy how these actors can almost instantly tap into their characters and still have that chemistry going

[hazy mural]

I was his uncle, I was also, HIS DAD!

[red knoll]

Nintendo be like : no, Cockfighting is OUR FAMILY FRIENDLY THING.

[olive hare]

Delivered with passion and honesty 🤣 I was kinda sad Sean Bean didnt show up though. I mean its one of the super rare times where he didnt play an all out villain, and what happens, he dies as the first main character. They couldve done shenanigans with that

[high path]

The patent got rejected anyway

Cause

Obviously

[hazy mural]

owes me a fiver xD

[uneven flame]

is there a macro to cast swipe when thrash is down and i press it?

or would that cause me to cast swipe over thrash if im spamming it while gcd

[quaint pond]

no that type of automation is not allowed

[uneven flame]

ah

[quaint pond]

blizz wants you to instead learn the skill of not pressing swipe when thrash is up

[uneven flame]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[forest flume]

should remove swipe instead

[uneven flame]

gotta swipe

i have thrash on E and swipe on shift E

[quaint pond]

ya if it wasn't meant to be used why would it be on your bar from the start

[uneven flame]

its just a bit annoying since i just swapped keybinds i guess

[quaint pond]

hm actually is it on the bars

[uneven flame]

my IF used to be on shift E but it didnt feel right

you cant even track swipe on CDM

[forest flume]

why would you want to track the cooldown of a spell that does not have a cooldown

global cooldown i guess lol

[uneven flame]

i just like to have spells i use visible at the center of my screen, no other purpose really

[cinder nacelle]

Just put your action bar there

[uneven flame]

its not a big deal dw

[forest flume]

No we must settle this

[uneven flame]

but i should probably make my utility spells smaller

[tulip lodge]

in m+ trash pulls, i see the rotation is just spamming moonfire, thrash and dumpin in IF. For ST are you guys prioritizing maul more frequently for dps increase?

[quaint pond]

wait yo, its not on your bars when you start. ok clear proof you should not use swipe

[twilit canopy]

hello guys, question on embellish, is 2 arcanoweave better, or one arcanoweave + one loa (for key push), wondering cuz most ppls going 2 arcano but some top got the loa ring, is there any specific reason?

[uneven flame]

sim it

i know its a boring answer

[hollow pivot]

isn't apexless kinda dead-ish after hotfix nerfs?

[uneven flame]

LOA is probably good if you have alot of gems

or if you dont have the 2-set from nexus

[quaint pond]

nerf wasn't that big, compared to how ridiculously massively they buffed non-apex

[uneven flame]

no

but other builds shine more now

DOTC has been my favorite

feels way better to play around mangle and ravage procs than spamming MF THRASH

[hollow pivot]

well, apexless main caveat is being tank af, but 10% cut in dmg hurts

i am amazed that they actually nerfed elune's favored instead of ursoc's fury tho lol

[quaint pond]

10% not an issue after you got buffed by 80%

[rustic kestrel]

nerfing UF would kill dotc immediately

[hollow pivot]

well, making nerf target only trash % would work, clunky wording but yeah

[olive hare]

Well UF got sorta nerfed as well, 25% less thrash direct damage = 20% less UF shields.

[hollow pivot]

that's fair point tbh

[olive hare]

Just doesnt matter since EF still overheals for a ton, now for a little less.

[rustic kestrel]

the real issue is that EF is meant for EC and UF is meant for dotc, but because of the slop design of EC where its just 15 modifiers into thrash, UF is the default for them too

[hollow pivot]

the bigger problem is that "skip all talents for mangle/maul cus u can spam moonfire for more frequent lunar beam and it's better" works as a concept xDD

kinda like if retri paladin had to work w/o judgement or blade of justice lol

[rustic kestrel]

until they make lunation static its likely to just exist like that forever

[olive hare]

Thats what happens when you put a 200% amp on an ability which is 20-capped. I mean even for apex dotc builds thrash still hits for a fuckton in big pulls.

[rustic kestrel]

yeah that too

[hollow pivot]

"fix aggro issues" my ass

they would've buffed swipe, not fckn thrash lol

[forest flume]

Very interesting take

[olive hare]

The attempt was legit and a success. Thrash was too limp after the loss of the TWW S3 tier bonus. But same can be said about raze/ravage direct damage outside of WiGu procs. And they made it even worse with that last raid related tuning. Still think they shouldve changed the scaling on thrash, it will always cause issues. And in the same turn, dial up the secondary target damage of raze+ravage, so it does a better job at ensuring early threat and feels rewarding to press more than every two minutes.

(okay for ravage it still does feel rewarding, but lets be real, thats because of wounds and the DR attached to it, not the pure damage)

[red knoll]

Buff the button we are not meant to press after we get talents?

O.o

Swipe is a placeholder button for guardian

[hollow pivot]

it would've had its place for threat grabbing tbh, thrash on cd, no incarnation, rage into ironfur -> press swipe

yeah, of course

fillerest of fillers

[worn geode]

Fur

[red knoll]

Its not even a filler its just not designed into the spec at all

[forest flume]

give me back my 4 seconds of incarn when i press barkskin

and then nerf incarn by another 50%, we're good

er, nerf thrash

im so sorry

[lament dock]

Blizz, he knows not what he asks. Don't listen to him

[forest flume]

[hollow pivot]

convoke fan slipped xDD

[forest flume]

i meant thrash ok

look at my post history in the past week, it doesn't lie

[olive hare]

8 secs of incarn. its not the beast it used to be in SL S3

[forest flume]

Did we get 4 seconds in and out of barkskin or just when pressing it

[red knoll]

Done but in modern fashion we made it a %chance to happen

[forest flume]

ohhh no i'm thinking of the other one where we'd get IF and FR when pressing barkskin, and when it ended

[red knoll]

In order to bring guardian more in line with vengeance we have tied their tankiness to incarn and made incarn into a proc

[olive hare]

only 4 seconds on bark activation. But with the cosmic damage and thrash on the gcd it was still bangin

[forest flume]

pre-nerf 4set was insane lol

[olive hare]

and why? Exactly, because it was 20-capped, just like Thrash still is. I rest my case

https://tenor.com/view/rpx-syria-mic-drop-gif-19149907

Just think it through. A 5+sqrt scaling on 300% thrash wouldve been a 30% nerf at 10 targets and a 50% nerf at 20 targets. It would hit that no apex build exactly where it excels vs the ethical builds and other tanks. Without doing any harm to its snapthreat properties or dmg contribution at bosses or low target situations in general. It wouldve been a gg move after that huge buff.

[forest flume]

Not a bad idea, but then we have a bleed attached to it

You'd only do sqrt scaling on the direct hit I guess

[carmine sandal]

They need to give people more uncapped aoe spells, not less

[olive hare]

Thats true. And tbh I could see it being the issue coding wise, I'd assume the bleed damage is a seperate ID but never checked that tbh.

[forest flume]

maybe we should just make everyone play like noapex bear plays

[high path]

Every spell should only do single target damage

[blazing gyro]

blehg please god no dont give them ideas

[high path]

Back in my days we ccd mobs

[olive hare]

Thats a wild take, arent 20 target capped abilities the big exception these days. And ironically often the reason why certain spec continue to cause balance issues?

[high path]

And killed stuff 1 by 1

[forest flume]

i did that last month

heroic shattered halls

[high path]

Na a lot of abilities are similar to thrash it's just not clear

[blazing gyro]

i miss the days when people knew what a CC was

[high path]

Like fire mage with their aoe

[forest flume]

see: feral druid, they are quite doing insane damage in big packs, then on bosses you're lucky if you beat the tank

(exagerating of course)

[olive hare]

Its still those flame patches right? IIrc they used to even scale beyond 20 targets aka true uncapped.

[high path]

Na they're capped at 20

[forest flume]

I think he meant ignite spreading

[high path]

It's a hidden dot

Unless they changed how it works

[olive hare]

Ah yeah I remember now

[blazing gyro]

is eyes of the eagle a better ring chant than the stat ones?

[forest flume]

not too long ago the big aoe damage from fire mages was just them doing their single target rotation lol (maybe its still that, i have no idea)

[high path]

You need 20-25% crit and yes

[blazing gyro]

nice, got the light and void set so doing T2 enchants so seeking to not have to redo it XD

[vivid frost]

Hello, I have a question regarding my logs. I compared mine to those of a druid who deals more damage at the same key level, 1 ilvl higher, and with the same build. I noticed that I have more uptime than him, but my average cast are much lower. Do you have any idea why?

[outer cave]

Any smart ppl have thoughts/guidance on this interrupt macro? I get the mod and focus stuff.. mostly not sure about reliability of everything starting with /cleartarget

/clearfocus [mod:shift]
/focus [mod:alt,@mouseover]
/tm [mod:alt,@mouseover]0
/use [nomod,@focus,harm]SPELL
/stopmacro [mod][@focus,exists,harm]
/cleartarget
/targetenemy
/use SPELL
/targetlasttarget
/startattack```

[blazing gyro]

is your weapon lower ilvl?, do they have thras damage talents?

[olive hare]

First thing catching my eye is he's got 10% higher LB uptime than you do. LB is a big damage amp for no apex.

[high path]

You're pulling smaller

[vivid frost]

That's me, I'm on the right in the screenshot.

[high path]

You can't really compare logs like this

[vivid frost]

i have bis 298

[high path]

The route might be different

Or comp

Or how you use your cds

Etc etc

[red knoll]

90% of the time its comp and route

If youre timing the key i wouldnt worry about it

[vivid frost]

same comp

[high path]

The most likely answer is pull size and or dps that do more damage

[red knoll]

If dps go at the same time as you, youre both going to do less damahe

[quaint pond]

just link the actual logs. screenshots are mostly useless

ppl can't really help you off pics

[vivid frost]

https://fr.warcraftlogs.com/reports/RjHDTZcF2q6mbva7?fight=4&type=damage-done&comparesearchplayer=6&comparesearch=2.10.2.28

[red knoll]

Oh i found the issue

Ur French

[vivid frost]

ahah

[red knoll]

[vivid frost]

mbmb

[red knoll]

Jk

[vivid frost]

🙂

[red knoll]

Little known French debuff

[outer cave]

Bon jeyr

[high path]

No frenchism

[violet holly]

french are the worst, right?

[high path]

No

I am clearly the best

So

[violet holly]

hehehe

[red knoll]

No Americans take that cake these days

[high path]

It's a fact even

[torn depot]

[olive hare]

That 100 parse That demo was in for WAR

[violet holly]

worst at not being the best, I meant

surely

[forest flume]

even here in french canada there is frenchism, smh

[red knoll]

Quebecoise

[harsh zenith]

any idea for the % stat we need for m+ high keys ?

[high path]

The one you have rn

[harsh zenith]

should i go heavy vers/haste only ?

[red knoll]

No

[high path]

It really doesn't matter

[red knoll]

Ur a tank

[violet holly]

go with whatever highest ilvl you get

[harsh zenith]

im already high ilvl

[red knoll]

Dont need vers to survive

[violet holly]

then you are good on stats

[red knoll]

Plus you come with 6% vers

Im so glad they added that talent

[violet holly]

all secondaries are very similar for defense so you dont need to worry about breakpoints

[red knoll]

Gives actual value to the druid tree

[violet holly]

you can sim for damage then

[outer cave]

When i think of france i think this. Everyones got a beacg hoise

[red knoll]

Everyone in Florida has a beach house every 4 years

[high path]

Down with the bourgeoise !

[harsh zenith]

what about trinkets then ?

[high path]

[harsh zenith]

gaze and pure void ?

[rose latch]

When it comes to going full 289 gear vs embellished gear I simmed and embellished in belt slot was slightly higher than 289 belt from chim but with tanking this doesn’t seem like the whole story. Do you favor ilvl over embellishments for survivability?

[red knoll]

One passive one active is good

[rose latch]

Bis lists don’t have any embellished gear either but all top druids are running

[violet holly]

generally trinkets with main stat are a good start, and then season by season there are unique trinkets

[high path]

I think 4 ilvl difference is like maybe 5 agility

You won't feel any difference in survivability

[violet holly]

from raid is gaze and plume I think

[red knoll]

Arcanoweave also has pretty high uptime

That makes up for it

[high path]

Plume and box for raid

[violet holly]

from m+ both from WS and the prism from skyreach are the better ones

[red knoll]

M gaze is obv better than heroic plume tho

I think

[high path]

Keys technically box is still good but it's finicky

[rose latch]

Worth replacing 289 shoes with 285 with arcano or nah?

[high path]

So the one from skyreach ye

[red knoll]

Even if you only use box on big pulls and box i like it

[rose latch]

And Ty!

[high path]

Yes

Tho ideally

[red knoll]

Shoes are iffy but yes

[high path]

You move cloak and wrist

Since lower budget

[red knoll]

Yeah cloak and wrist are the least stat loss

[rose latch]

Ah okay! Thanks! I have belt right now and I had weap but got weap from chim now 298

Thanks guys!

[red knoll]

I believe if you get a socket in your wrists now you get if for all 3 seasons too

It*

[violet holly]

and tank trinkets tend to be either very bad or very situational

[red knoll]

But i could be wrong

Theres 3 decent tank trinkets

[rose latch]

Niceu. Thanks guys.

[red knoll]

Dragons, Globule, and ick and krick

Trinket

Globule is good for very high target count

Dragons trinket is good all rounder

It can put a very large shield on you when used properly

[violet holly]

yeah globule is good because it does dmg but from a defensive standpoint its oof

[high path]

Na that resets

[olive hare]

Would you mind sharing the log of the other player you compared yourself against?