guardian

[mystic sage]

So it's blizzard's fault for the wonky balance, not the players' faults

[pearl warren]

Do we have numbers already for the nerf in general? ST and AoE?

[still locust]

Only have quick math on my hands from the +20 maisara 5 bear key

[distant star]

Okay do we have a build I wanna try it 😁

[still locust]

About 10% nerf overall in the key for Awoo on his thrash+MF spam build

[mystic sage]

When I'm doing Real Keys I use it but just doing 10s for my weekly vault? I don't really need it

[still locust]

Quickly searching through channel, this looks right for a no-apex build with mangle+raze

Some talents in the middle area can be swapped around based on what you feel like

[slim cargo]

Holy 😄 They trying 5 Guardians in Algather

[mystic sage]

LOL

[unreal trench]

okay if they manage this one, then Blizz will almost certainly nerf again

[distant star]

So im pressing mangle also it’s like a normal build

[unreal trench]

(I have nothing to back that up)

[mystic sage]

Tbf I think bear is the only one that COULD do Algethar just cuz it can self dispel the curses and poisons

[unreal trench]

true

pally could only do poisons

(and they're beans)

[still locust]

Basically yeah

[still locust]

I really don't think so honestly

We'll see, but I doubt it

They still have a few hours

[mystic sage]

I hope they do it just because it would be really funny

[unreal trench]

I feel like have 3/9 seasonal dungeons soloable on +20 would be enough to trigger a more kneejerk reaction

[unreal trench]

true

[distant star]

I don’t understand why they nerf us tho because some ppl managed to time a 20 with 5 bears. I mean if you remove the fun out of a tank no1 will play tank. Back in legion and bfa when tanks were god we didn’t have this kind of shortage with tanks

[still locust]

The nerf is very warranted

The +200% thrash direct damage was way over the top

And nobody here understood why the buff was that large

[mystic sage]

Legion bear my beloved, I miss you so

[still locust]

A +50% would have been enough to solve most threat issues, +75% or +100% if they wanted to be on the safe side

But +200%? Wild

[light forge]

Current bear ignores both the 4set and apex talents surprise they dont want that

[still locust]

SOME do

I don't

[mystic sage]

Yeah the nerf is actually very reasonable

[still locust]

And I know a lot of bears that don't either

[distant star]

Why was over the top because in AA a Druid reach a 1mil dps and the dps can’t ? Still at the end of the dungeon Druid will have 120k and the dps 150-160 that seems fair

[hazy mural]

20s is title range atm... its a really tough key to do normally xD

[hazy mural]

I think we got off lightly tbh

they should had nerfed more

[tacit thicket]

we still fine

For cutoff as best

Bear*

[plush spear]

How will this nerf effect our survivability though? Because thrash damage was reduced and also our talent that convers thrash damage to shield was nerfed so that's double nerf on the defensive

[mystic sage]

You will now have to click ironfur

[lunar moon]

only initial thrash dmg though

[hazy mural]

if u use NR, ur probably easily safe... if u only relied on UF then

[distant star]

For ppl to start playing tank they have to see numbers you can’t just be a punch bag that’s not fun you need rotation also. I play brewmaster as main at 18+ I fall asleep in my keyboard at 19+ I start pressing buttons but not worries if I miss a global that’s not fun

[fervent garnet]

"double the damage, thats 200%! do it!" trump mathing

[edgy zodiac]

Hi guys the meta will change for you?

[still locust]

And more importantly, mangle for more IF

[hazy mural]

NR with a not so good healer is a godsend

[still locust]

A lot of bears were dropping mangle for whatever reason

[mystic sage]

Truuuuue

[still locust]

They preached defensiveness, then stopped mangling

So less IF average stack count

Baffled me

[distant star]

I dont say that we have to do more damage than the dps we just need damage tho to have the dopamine rise

[still locust]

You still will

The nerf is fairly small, it just deals with this specific setup/build specifically

[hazy mural]

tried both again and honestly its crazy how no mangle helped more in terms of the lb uptime tbh

u still have 1 IFs most times at least, but u just have LB up almost all the time

[mystic sage]

Just play a dps if you wanna do big damage?

Feral pumps in M+

[hazy mural]

but then u cant get into keys

[mystic sage]

Oh true LOL

You don't like applying to and being rejected from groups for 30 minutes before getting an invite? That's pure soul

[hazy mural]

queue as tank, reroll just before timer runs out

[distant star]

I know the nerf is not big but they will nerf it more and more I’m sure for it
And we will end up in a season when dps will do 200-250k overall and a tank 100k-120k
This means that the tank will have the feeling that pressing the damage button does nothing 😅

[hazy mural]

now no one tanks but u all do big damage 😉

[still locust]

We'll have to wait and see

Getting upset about what could happen is not super healthy

[mystic sage]

You're just kind of making up a worst case scenario

[still locust]

Like yeah, they could decide to aura nerf bear by 50%

[mystic sage]

And then crashing out about it when it hasn't even happened

Unplug for a bit and have some water and you will be okay

[hazy mural]

I think if the only thing u care about on ur tank is ur damage, then it could make for a nasty run for ur group, like for me, damage is one part of tanking... having a smooth experience for the group is even higher... and that's certainly unchanged with the nerf

just snipped dam by 10 pct or so

enjoy the smoothness of bear if u like this style, cause thats not changing for a bit at least xD

[trim plaza]

i take anyday being immortal than doing dmg as tank

[mystic sage]

I agree, being a good tank is not just doing the most damage; for me it's all about making the dungeon easier for your group with positioning and CC

[hazy mural]

idk... if im immortal, im more likely to do stupid pulls

[trim plaza]

thats the fun part

[hazy mural]

I like being able to be gatekept from fucking group over

[hazy mural]

yep! damage comes and go, but OMG THIS TANK WAS AMAZING lasts forever

[mystic sage]

Asshole tanks who run in, pull way more than their group can handle, then start crowing about how they are soloing the dungeon are my least favorite people

[willow moss]

ive just woke up I wonder how the chat will be today 😄 😄

[mystic sage]

Like cool you can solo a 6 on an overgeared FotM tank, but you've killed your group

[lime hemlock]

no pull more

my combustion is more important

[mystic sage]

That's not an indication of skill lol

[hazy mural]

fire mage 🤢

[mystic sage]

LOL

[lime hemlock]

old meme:p you get it

[hazy mural]

https://tenor.com/view/jazzy-jeff-fresh-prince-gif-5339705

[gleaming pagoda]

Normal I guess? The nerf was kinda expected, but seeing blizzard clueless about the actual spec is funny

[hazy mural]

https://tenor.com/view/my-sweet-summer-child-sweet-summer-child-game-of-thrones-gif-19977020

[distant star]

I don’t care about the damage; I care about the gameplay—that’s the difference. That is why I switched from Monk to Bear, because I have more buttons to press, I can feel the impact of my actions, and I actually have to think about when to engage.
With Brewmaster, it’s just boring. Like I said, in an +18 key, I almost fall asleep; I can face-tank everything and still survive. What I’m trying to say is that they need to make tanks more engaging—whether that’s through damage tuning, rotation complexity, or something else. I’m not a game developer, but they have to figure it out, because when I play my Paladin DPS, I can really feel the tank shortage

[hazy mural]

what build are u running atm on bear?

[edgy merlin]

I think dotc is in a pretty good shape now actually. Raze probably needs the 15% nerf reverted for both specs but then apex should be pretty balanced. Interested in how are they gonna rework it

[hazy mural]

they will do the funniest thing and go full in on thrash style gameplay

[covert quiver]

to solve tanks shortage they need to made every tank as op as blood dk in legion

[hazy mural]

and turn raze into SOTR style gameplay maybe

[daring nymph]

I think the more people grasp that concept

[unreal trench]

give everyone vengeance from MoP back

[daring nymph]

damage will come naturally

[mystic sage]

True

Once you realize how positioning can dramatically improve everyone's dps lol

[hazy mural]

nope, gonna get ppl sniped by dreadflail's frontal

[daring nymph]

Probably slap thrash on apex echo

[daring nymph]

Yep

[hazy mural]

thats the easy way out, yh... but they cba with that it looks like

I think a full rework is on the way

[daring nymph]

I mean

[hazy mural]

they gonna take a side...

[daring nymph]

I would like it that they touch all of bear then

Not just apex

[mystic sage]

I'm not banking on a full rework

[daring nymph]

Like small things

[hazy mural]

let me cope!

[mystic sage]

Feral and balance need that way more than bear anyway rofl

[daring nymph]

Make maul/raze proc iron fur

[mystic sage]

LOL

[daring nymph]

Idk man

[hazy mural]

they need 1 side of bear to lose

atm its causing so many problems

[daring nymph]

People either don’t press iron for at all (bad) or they only press iron fur and ignore maul (bad)

[hazy mural]

last expac, EC no raze won out the whole expac, and looked like Raze was gonna win this one till the thrash buffs

[daring nymph]

It’s not like iron fur is gonna be missed

[hazy mural]

or bake em together

[daring nymph]

Ya

[hazy mural]

OOOR

[daring nymph]

Make iron for have a cd

Like demon spikes

But same thing

[hazy mural]

make IF have the extra rage treatment

[daring nymph]

Cause can just macro demon spikes

[hazy mural]

like Killing blow

so if u use it at 80 rage u get a longer timer for it

and the lower u use it, the less timer and also less efficient timer too

but remove stacks ofc

[torn depot]

remove ironfur stacks, increase its armor bonus, make maul/raze buff it or extend it

[daring nymph]

Nah would make Larry lfr freak out

[elder obsidian]

I'd rather take paladyn approach and make it single stack max

[tranquil grail]

I hate the IR spam

[mystic sage]

This sounds good to me

[tranquil grail]

IF*

[hazy mural]

ppl dont mind an interesting idea as long as it's simple to understand

ppl will boil it down to use IF when u have 80 rage for example

[elder pier]

starlight conduit affects starsurges from star cascade right? dropping moonkin and hotw and unsure what to take or if its even worth it

[hazy mural]

yes but its a very very very small dps increase

[elder obsidian]

Raze should echo ironfur not another raze

[daring nymph]

just merge raze and ironfur

sotr but bear

no point reinventing the wheel

[hazy mural]

true!

bring back TOI

[daring nymph]

the only thing i dislike about the idea tho, is the loss of skill ceiling

[cloud pebble]

Hi guys, am I right in thinking that after the update we’ll still be playing the two-button build without any changes to our talents? Cheers

[hazy mural]

Raze was em reinventing the wheel afterall

[tranquil grail]

Sotr uptime is bad though, IF is much better coverage

[daring nymph]

but its not like majority of bear players appreciate a skill ceiling anyways so.

[daring nymph]

its 99% uptime.

[tranquil grail]

Not if you have a little haste

[daring nymph]

i have 10% haste on my ret paladin main and i have 90+% uptime on sotr when i play prot on him

[tranquil grail]

Still much worse than IF

[unreal trench]

not by much, if at all

[hazy mural]

I mean with how Bear work, u can cheat and not have IF up all the time

[torn depot]

or something like making maul/raze increase the stacks and you only press IF to maintain the duration/stacks

[daring nymph]

I mean I don’t see how

[toxic comet]

https://raider.io/characters/eu/darksorrow/Sepponen anyone got recommenditations where should I roll my next weeks rolls? I probably cant do mythic dreamrift, dont think I get invited.

[daring nymph]

If the initial complaint is uptime and the reality is uptime is good

Then what’s the complaint now?

[tranquil grail]

Armor value is low compared to 4+ stack IF

[daring nymph]

i mean

we're not comparing things one to one

make maul/raze give you ironfur and have it stack per maul/razed cast

gg

same concept as toi

just not on a scroll wheel cause maul isnt off the ogcd

[finite cave]

Are we saying slamming thrash and moonfire was fun now?

[coral oak]

Feeling like a good is fun

God*

[tranquil grail]

Not bad, like all tww gameplay

[still locust]

TWW toi spam was also awful

[finite cave]

Yeah uh

Toi wasn't it either chief

[cyan vapor]

Any idea on how much damage % is the nerf aproximately?

[still locust]

Looking at the 5 bear +20 maisara, Awoo would lose about 10% damage overall

But it affects you a bit less if you play raze builds

But that's an estimate based on how they might implement the nerf

[edgy merlin]

I have great ideas for bear. Make dotc shapeshift based again with wildpower surge, add aoe rip to make it useful in trash pulls. Add a boosted werebear form/cd that stuns enemies when cast. Rework EC raze into a cool arcane aoe blast that changes thrash to arcane dmg/dmg increase for a duration (maintenance buff that you spam for a minor dmg increase if IF is not needed)

[tranquil grail]

Hope we get a better Apex later, making incarn more powerful is stupid to begin with

[willow moss]

the whole point of apex talents is that they should be some kind of strong interaction thats what makes it apex

[unborn dock]

You don't have to send your apex during incarn

[willow moss]

but yea its also hard to balance without everyone just FoTM rerolling

[still locust]

[finite cave]

Everyone doesn't fotm reroll

[still locust]

I think current apex is fine, but they randomly buffed it from 150% to 300% for no real reason and aura nerfed to match

[finite cave]

Vast majority of the playerbase does not need to reroll at any given point as is anyways, at least not to chase a meta

[still locust]

But I'm curious which direction they take apex since they're not doing kneejerk reactions to it

It sounds like they've had apex rework in mind for a while now

[willow moss]

oh i beg to differ, since the EC meme build came thats all this chat has been lol

[maiden idol]

meta chasing is one thing, a whole other thing is me being able to pull more with bear than on my monk that has a lot more gear than my bear 😄

[still locust]

Always happens, but you only hear the loud people

[willow moss]

and my guild mates and friends etc. etc.

[finite cave]

If everyone rerolled to chase fotm classes would die overnight with some regularity

[maiden idol]

dont get me wrong, I think what bear has right now is awesome and should not be changed

whats more, other tanks should be made in a same manner

[finite cave]

Uh no

[willow moss]

theres enough in each area that people can do it - Lock, Aug, UH, DH, Resto, MW etc. etc.

[maiden idol]

at least then we will have more people picking up tanking

[finite cave]

Slamming two buttons and ignoring the rest of your kit is terrible

[finite cave]

Huh?

[willow moss]

so they are all FoTM across the areas - Tank Healer DPS

[maiden idol]

although, I think on some classes you can practically use a freaking one button rotation to get 3k in m+

[finite cave]

I genuinely have no idea what you are trying to say

[willow moss]

you said if everyone rolled FoTM classes would die overnight, im saying these are the characters people are playing mostly due to being FoTM currently

look at the charts on who's doing what its not exactly an even spread. People hear omg FoTM and the run to it

[finite cave]

I didn't say "fotm rerolling doesn't exist"

I said it's not something everybody does and a vast majority of players have no reason to reroll to chase a meta lol

[willow moss]

the majority dont have a reason too but their fav streamer or youtuber shows a broken build and they do it. pretending its the minority is funny

[undone zodiac]

It's mostly just alts ain't it? Must be a low % of people that actualy fotm rerolled their main char to bear.

[finite cave]

Idk what you want me to tell you

[still locust]

You can for every spec except healers

[finite cave]

I never said it's a majority or a minority doing it mate

[maiden idol]

fistweaver monk?

[finite cave]

I don't really care either

People can do what they want lol

[still locust]

I'd rather have a well designed spec than be strong and popular

But I know a lot of people disagree and only chase rewards with the shortest/easiest path to said rewards

[willow moss]

my argument was its hard to balance when people flit to the current FoTM

[still locust]

Balance should not even begin to consider FOTM

And it doesn't

[maiden idol]

at least one tank needs to be strong and dumb

[fathom pollen]

Can't wait to find out what talents I'll be raiding in tomorrow! Man I'm getting too old to look up and learn a new rotation for every week..

[still locust]

No, actually. One of them doesn't have to be

[still locust]

Nothing changed so much that you would have to pick up completely new talents/rotations if it's something you find difficult

Not last reset, and not on this reset

[daring nymph]

They don’t balance around fotm

[finite cave]

This is a viewpoint to hold, that's for sure

[daring nymph]

Midnight made all of them dumb

[willow moss]

we just got a kick in the ass because 5 bears did a +20 lol

[daring nymph]

No

[fathom pollen]

Which one's winning, the previously good DotC or the EC from this week, do we know?

[still locust]

Uhh, best guess is that DOTC is stronger again

[daring nymph]

Nerf was in the pipeline before the 20 + China build

I asked

[finite cave]

Do you honestly believe it was that?

[still locust]

But I haven't run any sims yet

[daring nymph]

Dev friend

Long time ago cause similar thing happened with prot

That’s why ret closing down the discord didn’t result in ret being buffed despite reddits opinion

[willow moss]

why was it put in last second if not haha

im not saying it wasnt on the books

[finite cave]

But you are

[daring nymph]

It was honestly

A happy accident

[finite cave]

You're saying it happened because of a +20 that got ran

[willow moss]

fair enough

[still locust]

Because they don't put things in blue posts the moment they think of them

[daring nymph]

I think he said it as a joke tbh

It’s fun to point at a evil boogieman

Sadly the community defaults to anything

If it wasn’t the 20 key then it would have been something else, something more dumb

[still locust]

I remember back around the first real nerf we got from raid, it was because the Big Bad Theorycrafters did completely unrealistic sims

(The sims were fine)

[hazy mural]

[daring nymph]

Bear disnt deserve the nerf!!!

Even tho bear did more damage than some dps specs

[still locust]

It's funny that people said the 1st nerf was bad

[prime holly]

So… bear is or is not cooked after the nerfs today

[still locust]

And they had to nerf us like 2 more times before it was good enough

[still locust]

We'll be fine

[mystic zenith]

Same happened to uh, sims were ahead by alot -> got nerfed -> realised the sim was wrong -> revert

[lofty rivet]

bears will continue to be fluffy

[finite cave]

Very true

[prime holly]

Still push viable?

[tulip surge]

Yes top tank

[hollow sun]

back since 3 days off tell me there is no nerf still !

[finite cave]

I'm gonna probably level mine tomorrow with timewalking

[still locust]

Sure but "ahead by a lot" is an understatement when UH was simming like 140k+ compared to most other specs at 110-120k

[still locust]

Likely yes

Depending on what your goal is

[prime holly]

1%?

[shut jasper]

uh had a lot of fuckery that wasn't working as intended in game

[elder obsidian]

24 push? Probably not until 12.0.7
20s push? Was viable before buff/nerf and will be in next reset too

[shut jasper]

so blizz's own internal tools were probably giving similar overestimation to the community sims

[still locust]

Definitely fine

[lofty rivet]

dont we also get weapon/trinket upgrades on reset?

[still locust]

Yes

[mystic zenith]

True but kinda stupid to nerf only based on Sims, good thing the revert came

[still locust]

Unsure exactly how it works, but assumption is that the charges are farmable like catalyst charges after 4p

[lofty rivet]

suffering in chimaerus pugs will pay off

[still locust]

They never really nerf based on sims

FWIW

It would be extremely stupid to do tuning based on un-paid 3rd party software

[fluid phoenix]

tought its only one upgrade per character?

[still locust]

That would suck lmao

Worst case it's 1 upgrade per week, but even that sounds awful

So I think the "farmable charges like catalysts" is the prime theory atm

Will see when NA has been live for a bit

[tulip surge]

"I checked the logs and compared a Monk's damage in a +20 Magister's Terrace: they're at around 215m. Right now, Druids are doing about 260m, but after the trash nerfs, it'll drop to around 225m. So, Druid is still gonna be the top tank

[daring nymph]

No

[dim dew]

Farmable means new raid will be worthless ilvl wise by the time it comes around, so one upgrade a week is more likely to milk playtime

[daring nymph]

That shit should have STAYED nerfed

Unholy shits on every spec in raid

[still locust]

That's not how it works I think

The upgrades tomorrow is weapons and trinkets only

The items I've seen from new .7 raid are lots of other slots

At 298

[tulip surge]

Tomorrow u can upgrade only one slot

[still locust]

We don't know yet

[dim dew]

Oh if it's limited to those slots it's even less likely it's farmable. People would be done in a week

[still locust]

And anyone saying anything definite is just lying

[still locust]

Well, yesn't

[wet fiber]

Which talent build are we playing on Wednesday?

[still locust]

If you're a fury warrior with pwar off-spec, 1 per week means you're not done until 6-8 weeks in

[daring nymph]

Ec apex RISE

[tulip surge]

The same

[still locust]

Any of the 6 viable builds people have been running for the last week or two

[daring nymph]

[still locust]

Nothing really changes

thrash+MF exclusive spam is a bit weaker relative to other builds but probably still good

[still locust]

And at this point the season is over so

I find 1 per week very unlikely

[tulip surge]

No apex build still the best

[still locust]

Debatable, still

Even more so than now

It'll be viable

But I kind of doubt no-apex will be better than apex on reset

[tulip surge]

"I checked the logs and compared a Monk's damage in a +20 Magister's Terrace: they're at around 215m. Right now, Druids are doing about 260m, but after the trash nerfs, it'll drop to around 225m. So, Druid is still gonna be the top tank

[still locust]

Okay you can keep copy pasting that every 5 minutes but that doesn't mean it's the truth

It will 100% be VIABLE and USABLE

But I personally doubt it'll be more effective than apex

If you prefer it, run it

[tulip surge]

What lvl key u play?

[daring nymph]

How much of that damage is pad and how much is prio boss damage

[mystic zenith]

The damage isnt even the big thing why it was used.

[still locust]

And another one

[daring nymph]

I run 22 keys

[still locust]

This is an irrelevant point to bring up

[still locust]

Silly, you only need 8 for weekly vault, why are you doing 14 more than you have?

[wet fiber]

But we won't have any aggro problems again after the nerf on Wednesday, even when DPS burst in?

[still locust]

[daring nymph]

[daring nymph]

Shouldn’t tbh

[still locust]

Correct, aggro should still be fine unless you have an immensely stupid burst dps spec

Like ret popping everything .1 second after they're gathered

[lofty rivet]

ill break the news to my ret friend that hes being sat

[still locust]

But that would always be a problem unless they fundamentally reworked threat as a whole

[daring nymph]

If dps can’t wait 3 seconds for u to gather, then promote said dps to active mitigation

[still locust]

Make sure to get the vibrant crayons out

[crisp fable]

I love ret paladins 🥰 they make me wanna deplete every key i bring them in

[lofty rivet]

he likes the purple ones

[still locust]

Of course, they taste the best

[lofty rivet]

blue is too sweet

[daring nymph]

No fr tho, I did a windspire today on my ret main

And I had another ret with me

[uneven flame]

wait, is brewmaster just 2 button rotation as well?

theres no way

[crisp fable]

Yes and no

No class is 2 buttons guys 💀

[daring nymph]

Tell me why is he not pressing anything? Bubble defensives, sac, freedom, kings

Nothing

[crisp fable]

They’re the best!!!!!

[daring nymph]

Why are rets so fucking bad at ret

[tulip surge]

I simply analyzed some data to see how the situation would change

[uneven flame]

this one is currently

[crisp fable]

♿️♿️♿️♿️

[still locust]

4 button, basically

[uneven flame]

if you exclude defensives and big cd

which i dont count

[crisp fable]

“If you exclude defensives” we’re tanks mate

[daring nymph]

Meanwhile I’m sacing my tank and boping my healer and cleansing every too seconds

[shut jasper]

shado pan can practically get away with being 3 button

[still locust]

I heard from a reliable source that BrM rotation can be done at 90% effectivness by just doing 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 the whole key

[crisp fable]

Yup, never had that from a ret

It’s cringe af

[uneven flame]

yeah something like that lol

[wet fiber]

i play thats i ask if we drop a talent for other talent 🙂

[still locust]

Personally I would always play the mangle and maul (likely raze too) variant

Where you drop sundering roar for killing blow, and 2 talents in the middle section for Soul of the forest and raze

[tulip surge]

Is your problem 😂😂

[still locust]

[daring nymph]

Probably elune fury or sundering roar for kb

[still locust]

I don't know what your problem is

We have like 6 viable builds that are all extremely close in performance

Just play whatever you enjoy

[daring nymph]

I do 22 key level dude, my advice is listen to “apex and no apex good”

What’s your key level to dispute my claim

[tulip surge]

I play 20 stop talk about 6 build !! One build for high keys

[mystic zenith]

Thats alot of dudes

[daring nymph]

I play 22 key, all 6 builds are viable

[trim basalt]

https://klipy.com/gifs/speak-20--k01KRDRTWT6KAGKXWESDKAD89E6

[daring nymph]

Maybe when you get to 22+ you can have a opinion

Until then, get good

See how he ignores me :)

It’s funny

[weary rivet]

is this sarcasm

cuz its a bad one

[lofty rivet]

i just take talents that feel comfy

[hot smelt]

Hi bear mates, i have a important question ! I saw a note that annoucing a -50% direct trash damage and -30% bleed trash damage. Does de -25% announced today is to addionally of the 50 and 30 ??

[trim basalt]

The first part sounds made up lol

[weary rivet]

if there is a clearly better build and if the person asking the question ''what build do we play'' is trying to do high keys maybe stop answering him with ''6 vErY gOoD bUiLDs''

[still locust]

Last reset we got thrash buffed by 200%, next reset it'll be nerfed by 25% of the 200% buffed version. So 125% compared to where we were before reset

Still good enough for threat, not overpowered

[tulip surge]

Its a meme

[daring nymph]

Nah, just seeing if he’s going to stick with his own logic, I do higher key then him so SURELY that means he needs to listen to me. Right? Why else would he bring up key level

[daring nymph]

I mean there’s 6 viable builds, all 6 of them are still viable. This nerf changes nothing

[raw glacier]

So like around 10% overall dmg, less absorbs and less arcane damage healing. Bear still should be very strong. But it's already a banana specc with only very few impactful buttons. They really had their agenda this season on destroying bear fun.

[hot smelt]

Thanks more clear explain like that lol

[daring nymph]

If the dude still wants to play no apex thrash spam then he 100% can still play that

[tulip surge]

Thxxxxx

[daring nymph]

Also apex answered his question directly and correctly anyways

Idk why you guys trying to start fights with people actively giving good and correct info

[daring nymph]

Still weaker than apex build most likely tbh

Ec apex is gonna shit on people

[hot smelt]

I assume the trash built without apex is so far confortable than others, maybe boring gameplay, but efficient

[dawn summit]

Whats ur char name

[daring nymph]

I can feel it

[pastel trench]

so its a strong nerf? or na
we still go no apex?

[daring nymph]

That’s funny

[hot smelt]

It's a logic nerf lol

[raw glacier]

Nothing they do right now is logical.

[clever crater]

is guardian bis tank?

[dawn summit]

How much self healing will the nurfs do for dudu? My mate says its around -23% total self heal loss

[still locust]

EC apex might be the good middle ground of constant reliable damage from thrash with decent incarn burst

[hot smelt]

Bro we are like on a beta since midnight release xD They balancing class everyday xD That one is few more logical imo xD

[gilded ridge]

I'm coming from a complete noob viewpoint here.
i really disliked the apex talent because i felt like dumping 4 talents points into a CD that has a 3 minute cool down just seemed like a waste.

[hot smelt]

Don't forget the +6% flat mastery

[raw glacier]

If they ever were logical, you wouldn't have this mess rn.

[hot smelt]

Sure

[safe bay]

No way it’s 23%

[gilded ridge]

fair but like if im putting 4 talent points into a tree i expect way more than just a passive 6% increase outisde of one cooldown you get me?

[still locust]

You get 6% passive mastery, 40% buff to maul-abilities always

And incarn is not a 3 min CD, it's 2 minutes with Ursoc's Guidance

[hot smelt]

Before the raze/ravage nerf the apex talent was crazy, this is why they told us that they will rework it

[dawn summit]

Ursocs fury affected by thrash no?

[still locust]

And frankly, apex at 150% was better design than 200% or 300%

[safe bay]

Sure but that would require Ursoxs fury to be 100% of your healing?

[gilded ridge]

isn't that kinda arbitrary depending on the rage you spent

[daring nymph]

Hi Shane :D

[safe bay]

Or rather 95%

[safe bay]

[still locust]

If you only pressed thrash and never maul, you can take your ursoc's fury shield value in a log and remove 25% from that

[daring nymph]

[dawn summit]

He said in total including the elune nirf

[still locust]

Yes, but it's easily brought down to 2 minutes even on ST

[still locust]

EF nerf is very minor

[daring nymph]

Not really tbh

[still locust]

It's only really to prevent 5 bear shenanigans

[olive wyvern]

With this nerf, do we think the build is changing back to Apex talents or?

[safe bay]

I understood that. And it’s probably close to 10% overall (?)

[still locust]

With a healer in the group, EF isn't super effective

[still locust]

Could do

I think apex will be a stronger default, but no apex will still be more than viable

[half surge]

guys do i even need to press mangle ever?

[still locust]

We would recommend that, yes

Mangle is a lot of rage, and rage is good

[daring nymph]

In boss or pro target situation

Pls

Press mangle

[still locust]

At a minimum on ST/prio situation

But I still advocate using it in aoe instead of a moonfire

Because IF kind of good

[still mural]

But i like mousewheeling thrash and moonfire

[shut jasper]

for the no apex build it doesn't really gain you prio tbf

press it for rage but otherwise meh

[safe bay]

Let’s take Andy brews log. Ursocs Fury is 25% of overall healing. 25% x 0,75 = 18,75 and then probably some loss from Elune nerf will equal to ~10-15% max I’d say

[daring nymph]

That’s Prio

[safe bay]

23% is just a fully made up number where someone rolled the dice without even knowing the basics of math

[shut jasper]

the no apex version people are running at least, with some other talents it can

[gilded ridge]

Fair enough, from my perspective ever since i went apexless i've been doing way better even managed to start timing +14s and 15s way more often so I'm glad it's a viable alternative and hope it remains so.

[still locust]

It will for sure remain viable

If you prefer it

[daring nymph]

It’ll still be viable

[still locust]

Possibly not the best build, but definitely more than viable

[dawn summit]

How much haste should i run as a giardian druid im tankimg 22s/21s but notice on bosses i domt do that much dmg following the moomfire thrash beam rotation, im around 30-35k

[still locust]

Especially if you're new and not used to balancing IF and maul

[daring nymph]

But I worry about how you might be knee caping yourself for the future

[still locust]

Don't worry about your secondary stats

Use raidbots to sim for them

[daring nymph]

But cant rally so anything about that

[still locust]

Haste isn't intrinsically better

[dawn summit]

Ah ok

[gilded ridge]

i'm not aiming to be a top % or anything man if i reach 3400io im golden and happy with that anything else is a bonus

[daring nymph]

Then ya it’s viable

[scenic lichen]

Quick question; do you macro IF into Trash and Mangle again? 👀

[daring nymph]

[prime holly]

Yoda said spam moonfire

[still locust]

I would heavily recommend against it

[dawn summit]

I miss my brewmaster monk alot, its mor3 engaging.

Is there a way we can maybe put forward to bliz to nurf guardian abit more? Maybe we can petition to them?

Just anmoying to grind out cr3sts

[still locust]

Yoda says a lot of things

[still locust]

Play what you enjoy, my brother

It's a game to have fun in

But you can also make bear as engaging as brew if you want it

[safe bay]

What if you just play brewmaster?

[scenic lichen]

can you explain why?

[still locust]

#1463934154935894128 message This has a bit on it

[daring nymph]

Yoda also said once upon a time. Use only a 5 target cap ability only and ignore uncapped abilities on a dungeon season that has nothing but 8 + target pulls (df season 2 -3-4)

So ya

Yoda says alot of things

[dawn summit]

Brew isfun but my healer hates healing it vs guardian

[still locust]

Brew is like one of the easiest tanks to heal

[scenic lichen]

ah okay, so nothing's changed. ty ❤️

[still locust]

[dawn summit]

In 22s

[gleaming pagoda]

Healing what. Both tanks don’t need heal

[mystic zenith]

Yoda sometimes has his own Agenda and is a human with human errors.

[safe bay]

Yeah can’t imagine how hard it is to cast 1-2 direct heals on a tank/minute

[daring nymph]

Nah impossible, he’s perfect and everything he says must be taken as gospel (despite laot of tanks in his exactly same key rsnge telling people to do better things)

[novel oar]

so everyone pushing highkeys today before the nerfs?

[upper escarp]

Hi guys! Pretty new to Guardian Druid and was wondering is it recommended to use a macro for iron fur? Like after each moonfire f.e. or is it better without macro to use only when needed?

[still locust]

doubt there's much point, the nerfs aren't that huge and starting on reset we get 298 weapons and trinkets

And 0.7 raid also good

[novel oar]

put iron fur before trash in the macro so u always got some rage for frenzied regen

[dawn summit]

Nah man brew does need some baby sitting

[sullen nacelle]

yoo how big is the nerf will guardian still be meta ?

[safe bay]

How many logs you want me to post?

[mystic zenith]

Just don’t Macro it is flat out better

[dawn summit]

Sure post, only 22s tho

[uneven flame]

nope reroll FOTM ASAP

[daring nymph]

[upper escarp]

Ah nice good to know will try it out like that! Thank you!

[safe bay]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Zvx3M6KH8pPAL9V2?fight=48&type=healing&source=440&target=612 healer is main dps btw

[daring nymph]

Imagine arguing with shaene a person who actively plays in 22+

[uneven flame]

QUICK REROLL BRM ASAP 10% dmg nerf fun NOT allowed ⚠️ ⚠️ 🚨

[lofty rivet]

at least his key range is old enough to drink

[gilded ridge]

Who's Yoda

[uneven flame]

hes my god

[lofty rivet]

the green midget

[uneven flame]

all hail yoda

truth-sayer

[grizzled vale]

I heard it's a 10% DPS nerf in dungeon. How about the survivability?

[uneven flame]

0% survivability, reroll BrM ASAP 👉 🚪

[gilded ridge]

lmao but seriously who is he

or she

[uneven flame]

content creator

[marble thunder]

Trolling by telling people to reroll BrM...

Clearly the better option is blood dk

:3

[grizzled vale]

Rather warlock tank then

[dawn summit]

I play both guardian brew, and brew definitly needs more healing then guardian rn

[shut jasper]

nah it's clearly vdh

[gilded ridge]

is he any good for people to take his word for things?

[daring nymph]

Very good tank player whose a popular content creator

[daring nymph]

Sometimes

The suggestions he gives works for him and his team

And that’s okay

[safe bay]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/VHNgArDqnaTKMPtd?fight=9&type=healing&source=1&target=4 less than 2 casts/minute

[mystic zenith]

He has his errors as anyone has

[daring nymph]

At a certain point your team is its own world and has its own strats and stuff

[safe bay]

Rest is passive healing

[mystic zenith]

And hes a ppal propaganda machine since it’s his favourite Tank

[daring nymph]

Ya he’s very good at prot paladin

I 100% wouldnt step up to that

It’s clearly his main

[calm vapor]

Are we going back to DoTc after nerfs or is it similar now

[dawn summit]

Im on my phone, how i see targets healed whole run

[safe bay]

Just remove the tank from healed friendlies. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/VHNgArDqnaTKMPtd?fight=9&type=healing&source=1 .

2 hard casts/minute on a tank is really not the end of the world

[dawn summit]

Are you saying brew doesnt need healing as much as guardian rn?

Ive spoken to slot of top brews and that is not the case

[shut jasper]

both need similar healing looking at logs

[dawn summit]

Depends on pull tho

[shut jasper]

but most of that healing is passive

[safe bay]

It’s pretty similar, look at logs. No feelings, pure numbers please

You can legit compare it in logs

[daring nymph]

Math >feels

[marble thunder]

But muh feelings :(

[daring nymph]

People claim they can “feel” .5% nerfs

[shut jasper]

that said if you wish to not overlap buffs that comparison has a slight advantage for bear, and it's the fact mw can just fucking spin half the time

[obsidian stirrup]

ber dead?

[dawn summit]

First pulls before 1st boss in seat .

On my brew i need some attention, on my guardian no attention

[daring nymph]

Whe it’s mostly them siking themselves out

[trim plaza]

nah

[marble thunder]

dead as can be better reroll BrM /s

[daring nymph]

Post log

[mystic zenith]

Is it the Same with the mw ddh dk evoker comp?

[sullen nacelle]

yo know you can just help 🙂

[obsidian stirrup]

i need to ask yoda for the viability of ber

[dawn summit]

I mean theres a reason for meta shift, tanky af, big dam, self healing god

[fathom ibex]

Why is it that guardian druids keep getting messed with but monks are just floping around all happy

[marble thunder]

Because guardian druid was a bit overperforming

[noble locust]

Because BAER always happy, and monks never happy

[marble thunder]

Well I mean they drink all the time so you know..

[lone flare]

lmao, I open wowhead and it's a straight up nerf

again

[noble locust]

And some of them are not real BAERs

[mystic zenith]

Monks has been one of the worst m+ Tanks a lot. It’s nice that they can be best a season or two. Shakes things up u know

[novel oar]

When will there be a bear cartel

Like rmp

In pvp

[marble thunder]

Its not that much in the end I don't think

[wide ginkgo]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1tavecp/guardian_druids_right_now/ 🙂

[shut jasper]

eh they were kinda the second best option whole tww

[marble thunder]

true

[lone flare]

it's not, it's just...lame, again, all of their changes have been lame

[marble thunder]

True but atleast they finally said "oopsie daisie we fucked up on the apex talents part"

[lone flare]

yeah true

[trim plaza]

atleast they admitted apex has been a circus to balance and will fix it (surely)

[lone flare]

curious what they plan to do about it

[elder dove]

I'm surprised that people are surprised

[marble thunder]

Same

[lone flare]

frankly, I'm skeptical

😭

[daring nymph]

Meta shift happened because spec had a lower skill ceiling than brew. Which was previously thought to be impossible. Also beer wasn’t to far behind brew anyways so buffing it by a huge number would aling shot it past brew

[lofty rivet]

replace apex with rage of the sleeper

[lone flare]

oh I'm not surprised, I was just hoping for a more sensible aggro fix than what we got with hte tripling of thrash damage

[mystic zenith]

Yes but that doesnt make my Statement untrue I think. Every Tank has had it’s seasons to Shine and every Tank was Bad at some Point in m+

[daring nymph]

I feel like people don’t really understand how close tanks are to each other this season

[lone flare]

boring I'd say

[shut jasper]

thinking the swap was only because skill ceiling is very silly tbf

[daring nymph]

I mean second part of my statement is the actual reason

[marble thunder]

Honestly.. i kinda miss the Legion version of it

[daring nymph]

I just like bashing 2 button bear

[marble thunder]

Was nutty

[lone flare]

maybe the difference between dotc and elune's chosen will shrink now hm

[daring nymph]

[obsidian stirrup]

guys im panicking . is bear meta or what is going on

[lone flare]

mann, I'm tired

[dawn summit]

Exactly this was said by the almighty Naow, Andy, Zimeng etc

[lone flare]

who cares, play it if you like it

it can do everything in the game

[daring nymph]

Does it mean brew is harder to heal? Lmao no

[marble thunder]

Bear still prob gonna be better than BrM is my guess

But thats feelcrafty

[trim plaza]

A-tier minimum

[shut jasper]

I've seen too many people claim dumb shit like andy is a terrible fotm player and couldn't play the regular build so you never know

[obsidian stirrup]

i just want to get invites to high keys and this past week has been a rollercoaster. i started prot pala, went to brm because prot ddnt get invites, then bear because buffs. now its nerfs and i am left speechless

[dawn summit]

Duh, ofc it does mean its harder to heal vs guardian rn (before nurf)

[daring nymph]

Imagine saying Andy is bad

[dawn summit]

meta tanks always been like that

[trim plaza]

every tank prob gonna be doing well after reset

[daring nymph]

Probably the best tank player in the game tbh

[dawn summit]

agree, never said he bad

[shut jasper]

I'd prob still give that to lazel but

[marble thunder]

You'll ne fine with bear

[shut jasper]

it's gotta be close

[mystic zenith]

Lmao Andy Bad is hilarious

[marble thunder]

The nerfs aren't really that huge

[oblique moat]

m+ andy

[daring nymph]

Lazel also good

But sometimes he kinda slow to the uptake

[shut jasper]

the turkish twink is built different

[daring nymph]

While Andy takes all tc info at face value and then dominates everything

With said info

Both are great tanks tbh

[shut jasper]

that's why he only bothers to go for score on the last 2 months lmao

[lone flare]

that's one way to describe him

[shut jasper]

am I wrong?

[mystic zenith]

Does lazel Play other things besides vdh? I only know hin through that

[daring nymph]

Idk man, we’re just comparing .x % at this point

[shut jasper]

he was r2 prot warr last season

[lone flare]

I genuinely don't know lol

[daring nymph]

It’s not a relevant metric especially after logs were linked showing you that brew isn’t as horrible to heal as you made it out to be

2 casts per minute

[mystic zenith]

Ah thanks

[shut jasper]

also he's a dh dps main in raid

[daring nymph]

Yes

[shut jasper]

nowadays

[daring nymph]

I haven’t been to fh in awhile

I should check up on things

[dawn summit]

I think you need to ask the top healers , tanks what they feel is easier to heal whats easier to tank with

[shut jasper]

I heard they unbanned ancine

yucky

[daring nymph]

Like shaene? Who’s a top tank doing 22s on vdh?

[mystic zenith]

I think he always played Both specs but cant remember

[daring nymph]

My fault actually

I regret it

Cause

Um

It caused a stupid drama

Cause fh server owner is a idiot

[dawn summit]

I mean im a tank doing 22s on my brew and bear (albiet 21s atm into 22s)

[daring nymph]

And shaene is the only one in this arguement whose going concrete logs and numbers instead of feelings

[dawn summit]

I can link my rio page but its confidential dont tell anyone

[mystic zenith]

Yes we get it but shaene is one too and showed you examples where you are wrong and you didnt Listen

[shut jasper]

how did banning that creature cause drama

[daring nymph]

Nah man, idc about that

[daring nymph]

No unbanning him and another lolcow caused a dram

[dawn summit]

Does he play both? If not, how his words contradict top world tanks / healers?

[daring nymph]

Tldr, people pinged the server owner and server owner shotgunned (banned) the best mod from felhammer with 0 context or anything

Then fucked off

[shut jasper]

lmao

[mystic zenith]

Idk Go ask shaene

[daring nymph]

Ancine and dez still unbanned btw

[hexed trench]

Think we need to summon the unholy discord to take care of these constant bear nerfs

[safe bay]

Don’t think my words contradict that, or? You said that brew seems harder to heal. I said brews get 2 direct heals/minute. That’s literally all I said lol

[mystic zenith]

Wait which mod got banned

[safe bay]

Well I guess I also said that I think that 2 hard casts/minute are not a lot

if you think 2 is too much,

[dawn summit]

Hmm I think we are crossing wires then.

My point was that Guardian dont need the amount of heals a brew needs, and are more tanky, do more dmg.

Specific brew pain points are almost non existant for guardian

[daring nymph]

Idk I just don’t like kib or dreams cause they don’t do anything in the server, honestly needed to do a exodus from felhammer so either of them can’t destroy months of progression in seconds

[daring nymph]

Atrayen

[mystic zenith]

I don’t think doing more Pad Dmg is a plus Point.

[mystic zenith]

Oof

[green whale]

guys, no judgement or anything, but did you macro ironfur with thrash/moonfire ?

[mystic zenith]

No

[still locust]

I did once as a meme when toi in DF was first introduced then promptly deleted it

It's not good

[cerulean ferry]

doesn't guardian have puss boss dmg with the trash spec?

[still locust]

It's alright

Not awful, not great

[shut jasper]

I tried some weird shit last expansion where like

I had a bind to page to an action bar with macros during incarn

and then press a bind to go back to my regular action bar after incarn

[cerulean ferry]

ok, well that's alright then

[shut jasper]

but generally speaking I just scroll wheeled

[still locust]

I only scroll wheeled for a little bit

[shut jasper]

this expansion scroll wheel hasn't felt needed

[mystic zenith]

Ye thats what I hear Most do

[still locust]

I'm just one of the few creatures capable of not spamming my buttons 3000 times a second

[shut jasper]

but with half cost ironfur it was oof without before

• a lot more haste than we have currently

[still locust]

You only needed to press IF at most 2 times per second

But most people pressed it 8-12 times per second because "I gotta spam it"

Which can of course feel awful

[lone flare]

I've always disliked scroll wheel IF lol

[still locust]

It was a decent solution to people wanting to mindlessly spam IF but still retaining some control over rage vs. macroing it

[finite fox]

So RIP elune build in high keys?

[still locust]

Nah, it'll be fine still

[finite fox]

1 season bear meta and only 1 week

[still locust]

Possible that apex will be a stronger all-round/default build, but if you like your current build it should still work well enough

[lone flare]

I mean, I still run apex and it's still a direct good chunk nerf to throughput

but i digress

it's whatever, I'm losing my motivation super fast with all this yoyo nonsense

[finite fox]

Anlaky

[lone flare]

maybe I should roll an aug evoker, they get to be OP forever and ever

[still locust]

It's about 10% nerf to the thrash MF MF MF spammers

I suspect less to people not relying solely on thrash spam

[lone flare]

mhm I get it yeah

[wary hearth]

If I understand this correctly:

Thrash was 100%, then 300%, and with 25% nerf it is 225%, right? Dot keeps being 200%.

Even though Awoo Buildl/meme build is strong, I just fall sleep with it, and I play EC mostly.

I wonder if with Elune' s Favored could be dropped now that it is only 15%? Even though Ursoc's Fury will give less absorbs.

I am in the 17-18+ threshold, I was keeping with everyone up to 15+, but then life crashed and I am far behind.

Should I change Elune's Favored for Moonless Night? I also would like to get at least 1 point in Reinvigoration to proc Forest Walk. (I do like how it is now with far bigger duration for Ironfur to raze more freely, so which point should I move to Reinvigoration?)

[lone flare]

raze and apex less optional now

[finite fox]

LookUp

[still locust]

That is how we expect the nerf to happen, yes. EF can already be dropped pre-nerf, it's not a huge defensive gain either way

[trim plaza]

I would drop EF for FoN myself

[finite fox]

Again brewmaster tier S

[still locust]

I would put some points into FoN yeah

EC doesn't really benefit that much from Blood Frenzy, and taking both your point in Blood Frenzy and EF and putting into FoN is good value

FoN should still be more damage than moonless night, even if you actively raze

Less burst (because moonless night is strong for apex echoes) but more overall

[lone flare]

wait I think I run apex/raze with the one on the right instead of moonless night have 1 point in it

i forget the name

oopsies

[lone flare]

or maybe it's not oopsies actually

[quasi gull]

This is the immortal build

[still locust]

"immortal"

[quasi gull]

frenzy regen on CD healer does not care about you

[lone flare]

[quasi gull]

you overheal 400k perma and you are jugglign whatever cd you feel like

[still locust]

It's barely more defensive than the more engaging build involving mangle

And even maul

[quasi gull]

we meet again

[lone flare]

yeah, cus you keep talking nonsense

lol

[quasi gull]

the 25% nerf made me giggle this morning

[wary hearth]

Thanks for the advises so far

[mortal laurel]

how does the guardian druid nerf affect things

for m+

[quasi gull]

just did some 18s and felt zero difference

[still locust]

About 10% damage nerf for the thrash mf mf mf spam build

[still locust]

NA already up?

Nerf isn't until reset

Actually NA shouldn't even be down yet

[quasi gull]

oh mb im high, thought it was wednesday

[still locust]

[quasi gull]

had my wisdom removed so im high

[still locust]

Your whole wisdom removed

[sharp grail]

good save

[quasi gull]

but i promise there will be no difference tomorrow

[still locust]

Normally people only remove the teeth

[lone flare]

about 10% nerf for the thrash mf mf mf spam, otherwise not much change, not much change in what builds are functional either, probably stronger apex/raze

[still locust]

Yeah, it's about 10% damage nerf for thrash-relying builds and the EF nerf is very irrelevant

I should find a log of someone not doing the thrash x3 mf build and do some napkin math

[quasi gull]

the whole point of the tank is to not die, the dmg is subject to how brave you are which saves time

[finite fox]

So u dont do now 130k dps overall but still 120k so bear s+ anyways

[quasi gull]

yes

[trim plaza]

I mean, what u benefit from overhealing? Lol

[trim hinge]

A shield

[quasi gull]

do you want to only have 700k hp pool or 1.2mil

[still locust]

That's only specifically when frenzied regen overheals with the talent

Not all overhealing

[quasi gull]

if im at 1.2mil permanently do you think i care if i have 20 or 30 mobs?:

[still locust]

EF is the majority of the overhealing you will have currently

[trim plaza]

U have it without nr too dw

[quasi gull]

very minimally

[trim plaza]

Mby get a mw spinning on ur side so ur hp doesnt move anyway

[quasi gull]

you reach 150k max and its for 1-2 seconds

[finite fox]

I think elune build still the best because its tototo ez

[quasi gull]

NR is mandatory imo

[trim plaza]

XD no

But sure

[rigid hemlock]

damn so you guys think bear is still s+?

[quasi gull]

so what do you take then

[finite fox]

Yes

[lone flare]

here's a mediocre log of pit + 15 with ec apex setup if it helps with math

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ZXhpL6bKkvwAnrRM?fight=last&type=damage-done

[trim plaza]

I mean anything, nr is far from mandatory

[trim hinge]

Also sometimes it's nice to be a bit overtanky to have mental space to think about your group and not clench your ass every pulls

[quasi gull]

okay so you just said no for the sake of saying no

[lone flare]

this comes with experience

not with tank tankyness

[mystic zenith]

elunes or dotc?

[safe bay]

Looking at current guardian rotation you have plenty of mental space ngl

[still locust]

You would have done 7.17% less damage in this log on reset

[faint aurora]

Bear got better no?

[lone flare]

seems fair

[still locust]

You're assuming the average bear mental capacity

[quasi gull]

tragedy

[still locust]

Literally untimeable now

Fr fr on god

[safe bay]

[faint aurora]

God knows I barely have the mental capacity

[quasi gull]

im gonna reroll bdk now to make myself feel better

[trim hinge]

Me bear me need time to process

[still locust]

Just like how natural selection tend towards crabs, bears tend towards 1 button rotations

It's a fundamental law of the universe

[faint aurora]

Bear has more keybinds than I am used to using in games 😂

[quasi gull]

so please tell me whats better?

[rigid hemlock]

they get nerfed at reset

[kind seal]

missed opportunity to say bear.....ly

[still locust]

Middle section of the tree has a lot of really even-value talents

[quasi gull]

soul of thje forest? xD

please circle the correct replacement for NR

[still locust]

The only actually bad ones are ward of the forest (has no real use-case ever, but would be good if it did), memory of ysera (it's "fine", just on the lower end), and ursol's warding

[faint aurora]

Unbearable 😭

[still locust]

Any of the other talents are interchangeable

[trim hinge]

Also nature's resilience just feels good because you have value on frenzied all the time, like it

[still locust]

And I would still always recommend soul of the forest over something like brambles

Brambles is a very low value talent

[quasi gull]

HES A KNOWER

[still locust]

SOTF at least makes your rotation flow smoother with the rage generation

[quasi gull]

brambles can be replaced due to new thrash, but i keep it because i am holding my thrash on some openers for long run pulls

[daring nymph]

I don’t think anyone is saying nr is bad

[kind seal]

ahhh yeah! you're getting it.

[daring nymph]

I think people are saying that overheal in general is bad

[quasi gull]

becuase people think theres is mroe than 5% good healers in this game

[daring nymph]

Since the majority of bear overheal isn’t being converted to a shield

[trim hinge]

When overheal becomes shield it's not overheal

[quasi gull]

if im permanently full hp, healer only cares about 3 people

[still locust]

But not all overheal becomes a shield is the point

[still locust]

No healer will never heal you

[daring nymph]

I mean people like to think they’re part of the 5% of good tank players too

[still locust]

Almost all of them keep you topped through passive healing

And being full health just makes the healer overheal you instead

So

Value is eh

[quasi gull]

i wouldnt speak if im not actually pushing the bear

[faint aurora]

I am part of the 0.1% 😎

[mystic zenith]

if you always have a shield through spamming FR like a maniac then all the aoe healing your healer does is wasted

[daring nymph]

And yet

[lone flare]

your math....seems wrong

[trim hinge]

Yeah but I have much higher value on my frenzied regen, can prepull with it, not wasting 2 stacks timings, and it makes like 15-20% of my healing overall on a 16-17 key

[faint aurora]

I just started playing WoW so 99.9% of the player base is better than me

[still locust]

Yeah NR is fine value

[daring nymph]

Shilling overheal and making wildly wrong claims about tank healing

[kind seal]

I'm happily... not good, just let me press my 4 buttons

[daring nymph]

Nr is good, but not all over heal is nr

[still locust]

But IIRC the original talking point was about how EF was extreme amounts of overhealing, which wouldn't really contribute to NR shield

[daring nymph]

That overheal is bad

[lone flare]

overheal is literally always wasted healing

[still locust]

Not always

[lone flare]

FR shield is not overheal

it's a shield

[still locust]

There's a fine line of overhealing being fine

[lone flare]

lol

[still locust]

Think of overhealing as a sort of battery

And that battery is a potential to cover for you if you make a mistake

[daring nymph]

Some healers can make overheal into useful healing

[still locust]

Turning that potential overhealing into healing in moments you need it

After a certain point there's diminishing returns on that overhealing

But strictly saying overhealing is bad is sort of missing the point

[daring nymph]

Like everything in high end keys

It’s nuanced

It’s not black and white

[trim hinge]

And with NR it's a 230k shield 😎

[daring nymph]

But people tend to push it to extremes as well

[kind seal]

https://giphy.com/gifs/actually-well-nsb14-BvS0UKwFvN1TwzsXDF

[daring nymph]

Like saying all overheal is good

When it’s only nrs overheal that’s good

[still locust]

[daring nymph]

[trim hinge]

Run in a pack with 30% hp shield and cycling my cds is good

[kind seal]

haha, sorry I couldn't get it out of my head when i was reading the overheal talk

[daring nymph]

Anyways I’m going to bed

[still locust]

Hi going to bed, I'm Apex and NoApex Good

[daring nymph]

I wish all two button spammers a very good nerf day

[quasi gull]

The whole point of overhealing, it prevents the overlap from you getting 1 shot when you dohnt have bark up or you overcommit defensives

[trim hinge]

What if we also press mangle

[still locust]

Uhm akshually overhealing doesn't prevent 1 shots, you still get oneshot

[daring nymph]

Yes but that’s nr only , not ef

[kind seal]

I just use the foot pedal key'd to one button and let my anxiety leg bouncing do my rotation

[quasi gull]

i would headbutt my keyboard if i knew it wasnt satire

[lone flare]

lad literally just said "if a hit deal more health than my total health and shield I can totally heal it with overhealing that already happened"

[daring nymph]

Your a okay in my book

[lone flare]

[still locust]

The funny thing is I think everyone here is agreeing but just talking past eachother

[olive hare]

If only it didnt affect the non spammers as well

[trim hinge]

If the bad guy deal 800k damage to me but I have 740k hp and a 230k shield thanks to NR I don't die

[daring nymph]

Nah he’s pushing so he thinks he can’t be wrong

[quasi gull]

its the goldshire experience

[still locust]

NR overhealing good, other overhealing not neccesarily good but can still be a little bit good sometimes

[daring nymph]

[quasi gull]

MY ORIGINAL POINT

but heyho we had 25 lvl 70 bears say uhm well no

[trim hinge]

Same NR good period

[lone flare]

I honestly don't know what kind of overhealing you can use, if it was marked as overhealing on the log it's plainly, purely, directly, healing on top of a full health target, thus wasted, no? lol

[daring nymph]

https://tenor.com/view/luna-terra-ust-message-money-gif-23530621

[still locust]

It's not strictly black and white, and hard to "prove"

[dusk zinc]

So how bad is this nerf tomorrow

[quasi gull]

IT IS REMAINING SAFE WHEN THERE IS HUGE DANGER

[still locust]

But the analogy of a battery of potential healing to cover for mistakes is pretty good

[lone flare]

"nr overhealing is good" - it's not really overhealing if it converts into shield is it, it doesn't contribiute to overhealing in the log, does it, maybe I'm just missing something but yeah

[daring nymph]

Again I don’t think anyone is saying nr is bad

[quasi gull]

at this point just link your rio and we move on

[still locust]

I don't know how it's logged, but I do think FR overhealing would count as both overhealing and shielding

[daring nymph]

People are saying that overheating that isn’t convert to shield is bad

[lone flare]

somewhere in the 7-10% neighbourhood depending on what build you play I think

[quasi gull]

anyone who is below 17s might aswell be palying without a talent tree

[daring nymph]

3900

[olive hare]

TWW S3 Pwar gets a season. Bear gets.....a week

[quasi gull]

good

[daring nymph]

What’s urs?

[trim hinge]

What if my rio pp way smaller than my NR shield

[still locust]

I like this rio

[lone flare]

good taste, nice

one of the nicer monsters

still vile drinks, but less vile than others

[daring nymph]

I don’t like energy drinks makes my teeth chitter

[lone flare]

yeah same

i just drink coffee

[torn depot]

vile is exactly what i would describe monster kek

[trim hinge]

Brazil flavored gasoline tank

[still locust]

I genuinely wish they sold energy drink like drinks but without all the nasty caffeine and taurin

[fluid gust]

water is good water is life 😄

[still locust]

I like the flavours

Don't care for the energy part

[lone flare]

so...fruit juice

[quasi gull]

3850

[lone flare]

you want fruit juice

[still locust]

Yesn't

If you can find a fruit juice flavoured like the rio monster

[daring nymph]

Pre or post nerf

[torn depot]

fruit juice is less artificial, unless you buy cheap juice

[still locust]

Please show it to me

[trim hinge]

With some surprises for your metabolism

[still locust]

I want to overdose on that

[quasi gull]

apex

[kind seal]

well axctually, its carbonated too

[lone flare]

oh true

[still locust]

Yeah don't actually care much for the carbos either

[lone flare]

carbonated fruit juice suddenly sounds less appealing

[daring nymph]

[quasi gull]

okay atleast now the conversation is more important

[daring nymph]

Anyways

[quasi gull]

the bear iq has finally shifted

[lone flare]

gn @daring nymph

[daring nymph]

Your immortal build kinda poopy

Gn

[still locust]

Sleep tight @daring nymph, don't let the ancines bite

[lone flare]

you sweet summer child

[quasi gull]

works

[trim hinge]

The bear what

[olive hare]

Morenutrition has monster pink and white as sirup, very close to the original without all that stuff. Idk how avaiability is outside of ger though

[still locust]

LECKER KALORIEN SPAREN

[lone flare]

I've never heard of it neither in the netherlands nor in bulgaria

lol

[trim hinge]

What alchemy profession level I need to not die from this

[still locust]

I mean it's German, so I could likely get it

[still locust]

Alchemists already tested it

[quasi gull]

link urs or are you still smoking apex fumes

[fluid gust]

you normaly you can ship it to eu countrys

[daring nymph]

I only play ec apex

I like lazer bear

[still locust]

GO TO SLEEP

[daring nymph]

A lot

[quasi gull]

EC APEX

[daring nymph]

IM GOIN

[lone flare]

hm can order it here, few weeks of delivery

[daring nymph]

https://tenor.com/view/gigachad-gif-5430850758035663288

Yes, pre buff