guardian

[quaint pond]

presumably if they do it right

who knows if they will

[forest flume]

it'll be easy to check

[drifting fable]

hey is it over? for now?

back to monk?

[brave summit]

175%*

[forest flume]

that's not how it works

[quaint pond]

would be funny if they did end up fukcing up and making it 175

[forest flume]

Yup lol

[sterile verge]

In M+ after the buff, ST was still not ahead of classes like Monk and Prio / ST damage matters. This nerf will put bear in a weird place. Totaly playable but kinda paddy with the Thrash build I think.
Everyone back to Monk.

[brave summit]

i know but is for run 😄

[forest flume]

It's a significant nerf. Say your thrash was hitting for 1000 last week, this week it would hit for 3000. Next week it will hit for 2250

still better than before

[narrow parrot]

Let’s see how they handle our Apex going forward

[forest flume]

back to whatever you enjoy playing, as it should be

[forest flume]

And yep, this is the best part of the post tonight

[fast ibex]

is the thrash change just for intial hit or for dot also?

[inland coral]

initial hit

[long narwhal]

anyone having issues with starsurge procs from star cascade? just did two runs and details and the ingame meter isnt showing star surge damage at all

[quaint pond]

meter doesn't show it

in-game meter's mostly useless, use logs

[long narwhal]

alright, ill go check logs. thanks

[quaint pond]

you can just look at your logs and calculate out how much you'd be looking at

[plush ibex]

25% thrash nerf 10% EC healing nerf -- Losing 12% damage and 25% ursols healing is the main problem -- down 1.2-1.4 key levels.. These are the numbers im seeing - According to Squish

[quaint pond]

you're not losing 12%

[rocky dock]

when i hear a 25% nerf i imagine it is effectively 225% of what was live. since they added 200% on top of 100% (technically if we call what thrash was at 100% even though it had other nerfs earlier in the season)

but given their track record, i wouldnt be surprised if it went from the now 300% to 275%

[green kayak]

a 25% on 50% of your overall damage would be approx 12.5% damage in overall lost no? less when thrash is a lower percent of overall, roughly 10% for example when its 40% of overall etc, so its variable based on dungeon and how much a person actually used other buttons

[quaint pond]

it's not 50%

maybe it's 50% on the first pull on AA

but definitely not 50% overall

[topaz sparrow]

im sure that mean exactly thrash direct damage is now doing 75% of what it used to do (tomorrow)

[quaint pond]

ya

[topaz sparrow]

just disrgard earlier buffs. if today you're doing a 30k thrash, tomorrow you're doing a 22,500 thrash

[rocky dock]

its like 13.5k off total dps numbers on over all

[plush ibex]

EF being nerfed is the bigger hit no?

[green kayak]

Yeah no, looking at squish's logs, they have several 21s ranging from 45% to 54% of overall was thrash damage. Of this, in the higher range thrash's DIRECT damage was 41.23% so thats about a 10.25% overall loss and in the 21 NXP it was 37.14% direct damage overall so a 9.25% loss for example

since its direct damage should range 8-10% for most people

[quaint pond]

it's direct damage only

[rocky dock]

so 123k over all instead of 136k based off top logs

[brave summit]

nah, it do a lot of overhealing

the problem is the damage cuz it provide less shield

[quaint pond]

ya hard to guage healing since you ahve to account for your own overheal as well as the healer's overheal

[rocky dock]

the arcane healing nerf is nothing

[crystal silo]

squish thinks bear nerfs make it 1.2 - 1.4 key levels weaker there is no way that is a good take right? surely the healer can just heal the tank a little bit more

[quaint pond]

he thinks you're losing 12% damage which is impossible so idk maybe he needs to cook some more

you are gonna lose out on shield just not the full depending on how often you hit the cap & how much overheal might make up for the damage spillover

[rustic kestrel]

these nerfs losing up to 1.4 key levels is a wild take

[plush ibex]

I'm going to spitball some %'s here but i think there somewhat close to what im seeing at the 20-21 level. If bear was 20% ahead of tanks in damage before, these nerfs make them 10% ahead of the next best (monk) in terms of damage. Survivability according to this discord (EF, etc) we're overhealing a ton to the point where we should live the same amount. Is that not accurate to say? Bear will still dominate big pulls because of incarn, sure we lose ST a bit more now but w/e

[rustic kestrel]

thats saying that the only reason any 23s were done is because bear damage

I dont believe thats true, but i havent looked at them in depth

[brave summit]

the problem with that is: if by the bear damage and you nerf it, now how people will timed a 23 or 24?

[rustic kestrel]

oh theres only 3 23s done, i have overesimated these

[quaint pond]

yeah you lose 10% so for the group overall that's what, 2%?

[rustic kestrel]

well the fastest 23 was 27s under so is that 2% overall damage 27s

[forest flume]

let people think that

[crystal silo]

or saying bear wouldnt live without that extra self healing

[rustic kestrel]

But also Ecs damage is 500% pad, which reduces funnel classes damage

[quaint pond]

it's be pretty close i think. rough math they might be a few seconds over on this 23 MT

assuming you play the exact same way

[rustic kestrel]

alright so theres some credence to that

[quaint pond]

you can prolly mitigate the nerf with different play

well you're not gonna lose 1.4levels

[rustic kestrel]

some credence

[quaint pond]

but this is worst case wehre you make 0 adjustments and nothing else is better

[surreal jungle]

yea theres no way

[green kayak]

but i mean, even then +9 ilvl weapons would help offset that tomorrow too

[quaint pond]

sure but you would've had that without the nerf anyways so you can't really coutn that

[surreal jungle]

this doesnt offset any nerf what..

[green kayak]

Are you saying if you lose damage but you get more damage from another gear source that you didn't offset that loss? If you go from timing a key by 27s and then not timing it by a few seconds, the whole group gaining +9 ilvls wouldn't affect that at all?

[quaint pond]

you would've gottne that gear anyways

that's blizz math man

faking up a buff out of thin air

[surreal jungle]

yea ur gonna offset all nerfs and turn it into a buff next season

[spare falcon]

lul

[cerulean bough]

feels bad man, FF14 looking real good right now.....

As soon as I saw the video i was expecting a nerf

[quaint pond]

i mean video had nothing to do with it, this was in pipeline for a few days

[cerulean bough]

still feels bad =/

[azure ibex]

Sorry guys I called John blizzard and told him to nerf bear

[quaint pond]

ya but that's wow

[cerulean bough]

i know

[quaint pond]

you're paying for the nonsensical tuning

[cerulean bough]

that's why i say Evercold looking real good

the sub is cheaper too

[azure ibex]

Just pick a spec you enjoy and get really good at it, and regardless of the tuning you’ll be good

Or play a diff game!

[cerulean bough]

I play all 4 specs and bet on that at least 1 is good

but yeah

Evercold looking great

[azure ibex]

Then go play that lol

[cerulean bough]

it's not out yet xD

[azure ibex]

Then go play something else til it is

If you aren’t enjoying wow don’t play it

Easy life

Go buy Gris that game is very pretty

[cerulean bough]

I enjoy raiding with my guild but hate everything else, I didn't mind the campaign story as a once off

i'll put up with doing M+ a few times a week

[azure ibex]

Convince them all to buy Windrose or smthn

[cerulean bough]

might be a plan

[lament dock]

Isn't this like an 8-10% damage nerf? Are we really boohoo-ing about that? If you thought Bear wasn't getting a patch note after this I have a bridge to sell you

[rocky dock]

the bridge would cost 7500 hearthsteel

[steel vault]

Sky is falling nerf tomorrow? Or, do we have an offical estimate by the pros on how much dps we're losing, in M+ nopex?

[rustic kestrel]

if you scroll up

like

[quaint pond]

just look at your logs

[rustic kestrel]

2 messages

[quaint pond]

remove 25% from your thrash direct hits

[steel vault]

There is no change, last week, this nerf, nor regular tank tuning announced that changes anything for us in raid, right ?

[quaint pond]

you don't need any estaimates you can get real results

[rocky dock]

you go from like 280 ap per target to 210 ap per target. thrash is uncapped AoE so if you didnt change your route, just pull 25% more and you technically see no change

[quaint pond]

hm this 22mt that was 3:44 under would only be 3:15 under post nerf

[spice dome]

Can you do magetower even though its not legion timewalking event? O.o cuz this is the one from mage tower right?

[olive hare]

At least with those patchnotes we can finally settle the debate on wether blizz wants or doesnt want us to play apex. Really hoped for some baseline raze buffs or at least a buff to its secondary target damage though.

[hardy wing]

Hows it feel to press 3 buttons and never die

As a prot pal i hate you all

[opaque cairn]

L bozo

[sleek lintel]

It does make MW's issues more glaring since there's have been since beta

[livid ruin]

Nearly broke my ankle running to discord

To see all the people who said they wouldnt nerf guardian

[warm tundra]

HUGE NERF, LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE

[crystal silo]

is there no way to get insta cast entangling roots in bear form anymore?

[sweet gorge]

there was a lot of cope in here from folks lol

[magic ocean]

How is nerf ?

[sterile verge]

Not a pro but Thrash is doing give or take 50% of the overall damage. 40% direct. 10% dot. A 25% nerf to 40% gives you a 10% ish nerf overall ish.

[pine linden]

So all the fotm rerollers are ditching bear now?

[indigo forge]

Pretty much

Going to prot pala now

[sweet gorge]

and a wave of peace falls upon discord

[pine linden]

https://tenor.com/view/monty-python-holy-grail-blessing-blessed-bless-gif-25991585

[vale nymph]

Anyone got a 20 and want to run all an all bear key?

[novel fern]

hah I guessed right

[daring nymph]

Why prot paladin?

That shit is still hot ass

[oblique moat]

bear isnt even dead its still gonna be top damage in keys

[olive hare]

We're still gonna be among the top dmg tanks, yes. Lets see if thats enough with that flat AoE profile

[cloud hinge]

Yes

[exotic verge]

Are we still fine after the 25% nerf to thrash?

And will everyone still be playing it or going back to brew again?

[olive hare]

🔮

[junior plume]

What about our shield from Fury?

[south rock]

We went from +100% to +75% now. For sure we are fine 😂

[sand ingot]

trinket or tokens, yes I know I don't have enchants

[olive hare]

Well ee have been fine for all of Mid so far. But i think that question was related on If bear still has meta ambitions. The selfsustain nerf doesnt seem to bad considering how much overhealing EF still did even in top keys. That damage nerf is big though.

[sleek lintel]

So the original buff was 200% or 3x original and that is being reduced by 25%. It's till 2.25x what it was last week.

[olive hare]

Especially hurts that we didnt get a st/prio compensation

[south rock]

Yer but i love the „we will look into the apex talent in the next update“ but lets nerf aoe and st 😂

[sleek lintel]

they said they expect bear to still be the highest damage tank haha

[olive hare]

Yeah doubt that, we werent super far ahead. But blizz and statistics you know.

[jagged gazelle]

Did majority people even just roll druid? I feel people still kept just playing brew

[south rock]

Them not nerfing brew is a good indicator, that they have no clue

[olive hare]

A lot of the big dogs were getting bears ready yeah.

[jagged gazelle]

Yeah but its not majority of the people, I guess I meant it's relatively pretty small number of the playerbase

[edgy merlin]

Well well well, I was pretty close

[olive hare]

Oh i disagree in that regard. I think brew aint that oppressive in terms of damage. And survivability wise they at least started giving the other 4 Tanks some love. Not as much as some of them asked for, but Hey they tried 🤣

[junior plume]

MW not even use apex since the launch and still no changes, the last titan we have this change

[olive hare]

Yeah seems like bear damage will kinda blend into where top brm and vdh parses are at

[jagged gazelle]

Class so OP doesnt need apex

[olive hare]

MW capstones are just crazy strong in M+. Their spec tree is so stacked

[junior plume]

im just saying was a big point for midnight and is bad for some specs

[quaint pond]

they'll try again in 12.1 maybe they'll get it right this time

[ancient bronze]

equal with Brewmasters now?

[south rock]

Its a around 10% overall nerv if i look into my logs so yes. Dmg wise should be equal to Brew

[ancient bronze]

we are 1 key down for sure :/

[neat thunder]

squish is doing 5 bears MT

20s

[sleek lintel]

People are slow to change so who knows

Poor trees though. One bear buff and they're shunted

[forest flume]

don't worry as a bear main since BFA, im happy this got nerfed

[ancient bronze]

Ppala fotm this week! Pink boys what you gonna do when they come for you

[daring nymph]

Idk man

Bear still has the highest potential st dps in raid

[daring nymph]

I still don’t get this

Prot paladin is still ht ass

[ancient bronze]

Popularity matters the most than raw power

[unique leaf]

I see the nerfs, but is the no apex build the best build after nerfs?

[opaque brook]

[neat thunder]

i feel the current build we are running will still be the most effective. its not a crazy nerf

correct me if im wrong anyone just my thoughts atm

[opaque brook]

🪦 rip bears

[late thistle]

For casual players I expect it's probably the simplest and most logical

[quaint pond]

it'll probably still be highest for overall damage, but whether that's best or if more prio damage is better ppl'll just have to run keys and figure out

[normal flower]

Does the nerf changes anything number wise ? Can we spec out of SR / WN, press mangle / Maul or raze or is it still better to push 3 buttons ?

[quaint pond]

it doesn't affect the direct damage from sr/wn

if you still play ec with no raze you won't change anything, but maybe dotc or ec+raze works out better idk

[midnight flint]

Its a lazy and small nerf that doesn’t address any fundamental issues with the spec. It’s less than expected and probably does not move the needle build wise. At least thats my assumption.

[normal flower]

Not even pressing mangle is depressing

[oblique badge]

You can if you want

[normal flower]

Yes sparkle, you can be a unicorn.

[agile spruce]

what is best odds of getting belo plume in vault? guardian or feral

[oblique badge]

https://tenor.com/view/rainbow-spongebob-imagination-gif-8764636

A 10% damage lose and a bit of survivability won't change anything to the meta.
They won't change the build too

Let's see how things change on people's mind

[azure ibex]

Prob dps as I’m pretty sure most of the feral trinkets are still on bear table

Rolling feral cuts egg and scale out of the running at least

Is Guidon on the bear table? I don’t remember off the top of my head

[agile spruce]

guidon is

chimaerus ooze is on ferl but not guardian

[azure ibex]

So you’re dropping Scale and Egg off the table and adding Vestige… still seems like better odds

[mortal perch]

Oh they nerfed thrash and arcane healing. Claude working overtime today.

[azure ibex]

If you’re killing myth Belo I’d just throw bonus rolls at that

[daring nymph]

Ah

[oblique badge]

Poe2 0.5 in 3 weeks

Relax

Lmao

[azure ibex]

You could play Gris RIGHT NOW

https://tenor.com/view/gris-indie-gaming-art-jump-gif-16751587

[agile spruce]

ya makes sense, ty

[outer flame]

the 10% nerf to elune's favored is Elune's favored healing being nerfed by 40% of its value, its not a small nerf, this might change to where we have to use more mangles to generate more rage for better survivablity, I'm expecting some talent changes

[quaint pond]

you never lose the full raw healing, you need to account for your overheal and your healer's overheal

[elder badge]

Only reason I’m not breaking off

[willow ridge]

Why would they decide a nerf before they see how the buffs for other tanks is affecting the game?

[quaint pond]

diff devs working on diff things

[sick mural]

maybe because of 5 tanks managed to
do +20?

which shouldnt be possible

[willow ridge]

Sure that’s the reason for the nerf

[sick mural]

not the reason, just an example

[quaint pond]

eh it would've been in the pipeline before then

[willow ridge]

But why not wait a week or even days just to wait in the other tanks

[quaint pond]

the guy doing guardian wanted to get it off his list and move on

[sick mural]

why waiting if bear is clearly overpowered

[willow ridge]

Why not

[quaint pond]

they don't need a reason

it's just what the dev decided to do

[sick mural]

true, wow always been like that

[willow ridge]

Prob gonna see same with dk or something

[sick mural]

if they want a spec to be a complete meta it will

[willow ridge]

And now it’s gonna be a couple of weeks of stabilization

[quaint pond]

mabye if the guy doing bdk feels the same

or maybe he'll feel different

[jagged gazelle]

Pretty sure dev alone doesn't just change things up to his mind

lmfao

[quaint pond]

they do that a lot

sometimes one dev changes something

[jagged gazelle]

proof?

[quaint pond]

other dev looks at it and changes it back

[jagged gazelle]

They literally cannot merge it before atleast 2 reviews has been passed (or atleast I hope this is the case)

So its not like 1 dev just merges to main branch and other dev looks and changes back

[gaunt helm]

where were you when bear is kill

[quaint pond]

it's happened before

[sharp gale]

In bed snoozing

[gaunt helm]

no

[quaint pond]

it's only a team of 15 or so

doing everything combat related, pve, pvp all of it

for all specs

they've had times where they make a blue post about a bug fix that another dev had fixed a tier ago

cuz the new guy didn't even realize it

[storm fractal]

Does this hotfix change anything rotational wise?
Felt Like only 3 Buttons make me fall assleep. Do we get more minmax stuff now?

[sharp gale]

U could play with apex before changes still for more than 3 buttons tho no

[quaint pond]

maybe, i know few ppl trying dotc, ec+ raze

but ya you can also just take the nerf hit and play exactly the same

[daring nymph]

I mean let’s look at the facts

[jagged gazelle]

A bit of exaggeration. Literally hundreds of developers. Spesific combat/class tuning team is about that

[quaint pond]

you can see hte list of the combat team

it really is that small

[sharp gale]

When did u work at blizzard btw

[daring nymph]

Spec was reduced to 2 button spam for the majority of players

Tierset 4pc became defunct

Apex was turned to a side option which conflicts with what they said about apex during gamescon

The suddenly shift to bear population Alda factor that leads to seeing a huge gain from their kneejerk buff

All of these led to a nerf, most likely was in devs pipeline after day one tbh

It’s def not cause of the china 5 bear run

But it’s def helps to have a boogieman to point at

[daring nymph]

Small team of devs

[merry quest]

🪞

[daring nymph]

[high path]

No it's clearly because of the chinese

[merry quest]

Quick. Someone screenshot this out of context

[toxic comet]

I was home eating dorito when awoo called bear is dead and you?

[sick mural]

i mean, 5 bear dung is just an example why bear needed a nerf, not the reason itself

[sharp gale]

Can't believe anti awoo truthers were right all along

[daring nymph]

I’m not shocked

I saw this coming a mile away

[rustic kestrel]

keepin this one in my pocket

[merry quest]

Good man

[forest flume]

blackmail material

[gaunt helm]

could have pushed the nerf to this week instead of the next

[daring nymph]

I mean I hardly think this was worth an emergency hotfit

Can’t wait to go to the forums

[quaint pond]

they would've hotfixed it if it was an emergency instead of waiting for reset

at least there's the slight chance they fuck up the nerf and don't nerf it as much

[oblique badge]

relax

the nerf wont change anything

[lucid bobcat]

Yeah bear and brew will still be kings, dont worry

[quaint pond]

don't care about that, it'll jsut be funny

resets are always fun watching which hotfix blizz fucks up or forgets

[forest flume]

• and - are so close to each other

[quaint pond]

it shoudl go from 200->125 but 200->150 and 200->175 are all possibilities

[sharp gale]

Noted, it's going from 200->225

[willow ridge]

Schh

Don’t tell anyone

And dont do full guardian runs

[outer flame]

if ppl bothered they can do 5 tank runs with other tanks, its really not that hard

[forest flume]

i am 100% spamming forums if its not nerfed correctly, i will lose my dignity over this if i have to

[tall basin]

report squishvegan. he is in a 20 pit atm. 6min left and they are @endboss

[willow ridge]

Reported

[tiny stream]

Especially after the buffs to other tanks, that shouldn't be too hard

[tight compass]

happy to hear they're working on a redesign for our apex atleast

[forest flume]

yep that was the second best news for bear today

[daring nymph]

You mean, because Blizzard designed guardian apex talents they’re perfect and must be used, even though guardian, up until now, has been one of the worst tanks. But the apex talents are perfectly designed! Your handler told you so! It’s the best they’re going to give bears, so suck it up and play for all the ingrates who hate tanks and think DPS should get glory and tanks should be deliriously happy they are allowed to log in and serve their masters.

Nope.

Blizzard made a mistake that upset their scheme to reduce the number of tanks and thus reducing the number of pugs playing the game dramatically.

[daring nymph]

Unironically probably the best thing announced

Hopefully they keep it roughly the same but add mangle to it

[tight compass]

Nah scrap the current one completely and start over

[quaint pond]

yeah it's pretty bad as is

[forest flume]

they have to separate it from incarn

[willow ridge]

💯

[tight compass]

Incarn is already the strongest tank cd in the game, give us more consistent power in the apex and we're golden

[late thistle]

New Apex will be called moonbear and make moonfire castsble and do AoE damage, you will take no damage whilst casting and deal 1000% more damage.

[quaint pond]

bring back void bear from tww alpha

[forest flume]

its time for Lunar Devastation

[merry quest]

Make moonfire castable

[tight compass]

yes pleeeease

[merry quest]

Revolutionary

[willow ridge]

We are, no doubt, the lunars chosen.

[forest flume]

was thinking something around barkskin like our SL legendaries or tier sets, but that spell is already so strong

[sharp gale]

Make apex aoe taunt hehe

[tight compass]

thrash does that

[uneven flame]

How much is our st supposed to be excluding incarn/buffs?

Feel like im way below mark

[forest flume]

whatever your sim tells you

[uneven flame]

Doubt i can sim with no incarn

[sharp gale]

Larger range tho

[uneven flame]

But ig i should not exclude incarn, but buffs

[forest flume]

You prob can if you tweak the apl

[late thistle]

As a Fotm reroller this nerf means I have to learn to play properly eugh

[pastel surge]

How Hard is the Guardian Nerf for m+?

[quaint pond]

nah you'll be fine

[forest flume]

you can still play noapex

[uneven flame]

Im just mad this shit surfaced 2 days after i got my druid to 80

[late thistle]

To be fair I just want to fix my ST dps a bit

[high path]

no apex looses like

[forest flume]

it will just do less damage and absorbs/healing, still playable

[high path]

~7% damage ?

or w/e

[uneven flame]

I wonder how much dotc loses

[high path]

guess it depends if they enerf all of thrash

[daring nymph]

I disagree but that’s fine

[uneven flame]

Prob not as much since we have alot of dmg in ravage

[high path]

or just direct damage

[daring nymph]

It’s clear everyone has subjective options about it

[high path]

2-3%

ish

[forest flume]

they said direct damage

[daring nymph]

I just like burst/prio damage a lot

[forest flume]

but will they do that

[high path]

ye they said

they also said they nerfed the apex

and forgot like

the echo damage

twice

[forest flume]

[sharp gale]

Trusting what blizz says is the first lesson wow players learn not to do

[rustic kestrel]

changing our apex will be so sad

[quaint pond]

haha did they ever fix that

[rustic kestrel]

Its so useful and versatile

[forest flume]

still the move imo

[quaint pond]

hm guess not, echoes are still unnerfed

[forest flume]

damn echoes

[sharp gale]

It is weird both apex and tier set are about echoes tho

[daring nymph]

I wonder if people are gonna realize that

[rustic kestrel]

gonna be sad when this tier sets gone too

[quaint pond]

Maybe if ppl try more dotc

at least you got what, 10 weeks? i doubt they'll do anything for 12.0.7

[forest flume]

If they design a good apex ill be sad but also happy to move away from current one

if

[grand plinth]

Interesting info here

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pGKv9fqZLDtd18Qg?fight=last

This is the rank 1 DOTC parse

in AA

But I still did like 20k less than EC

However we smoked the timer

Take away from that what you will

[rocky dock]

[forest flume]

What if you compare boss damage

[pastel surge]

U guys think were still Meta or is Monk Ahead now ?

[grand plinth]

I guess its only 13k less

for the key level

[quaint pond]

Gap would be even less now

[daring nymph]

Yes

Cause

[high path]

AA is prolly the key where no apex can beat dotc

[daring nymph]

Prio damage>pad Overal

[grand plinth]

I did like 10k less

to bosses

[high path]

Cause of like

All pulls

[rocky dock]

Bear is still ahead because rotation is still IF dump.

[daring nymph]

Way to many people focus on overal damage instead of important damage

Anywho

[forest flume]

welcome to this weeks discussions :p

[stone lily]

meanwhile bear druid on frontpage of twitch timing a 20 with only bear druids in party

my fucking sides

[daring nymph]

It’s a discussion I know well

[still locust]

Well I'm still holding out for ironfur rework too, but I'll take it

Let the dev cook

[daring nymph]

From years of vdh being meta

And seeing mages complain ing about Overal and not timing keys

[forest flume]

Hey Kele, you know what this means right

[covert frost]

new to wow. What about ironfur needs reworking?

[forest flume]

Lunar Devastation dream is alive

[still locust]

It's just awkward for new bears to balance 2 rage spenders that are both important

No other tank has this issue atm

Which leads to new bears spamming IF, or never pressing IF

Both are bad

[covert frost]

not talking about maul/ravage with the new thrash buff right? You mean frenzied regen?

[still locust]

And just the general direction of class design in midnight, where ironfur is a bit too tracking-heavy

[ivory cobalt]

How much is the nerf in ST for keys build? Assuming they do 25% the correct way and not 200 - 25.

[still locust]

Even demon spikes is not really tracked

[covert frost]

Im defs an IF spammer. lol have it on scroll wheel.

[still locust]

will have to see how theh implement. If people swap to maul builds it shouldn't be huge

[ivory cobalt]

Wouldn't that be a big def loss if u swap to maul?

Not sure the talent nodes you use to make maul viable against the ones we using now

[still locust]

Not really, we already recommend it in general

[ivory cobalt]

But it's weird since they could just do 175 instead of 125

[still locust]

If people want more than just thrash and moonfire

[ivory cobalt]

I see

[still locust]

The most straightforward swap is sundering roar to killing bloe

And you're basically there

And sundering isn't that huge anyway

[ivory cobalt]

Ye kind of pad

You prob kill the pad and end up with prio target alive

Doubt u will find one

[still locust]

I thought Gnomerender did

[grand plinth]

im in mt right now

[still locust]

Not sure if he did any, and logged them

Checked his magister's terrace recent ones, they're EC

I thought he was hyping up DOTC no raze but I guess not

What about it....

[abstract raven]

Think it’s just so much easier to play Nopeaxe bulid

[still locust]

Hm? Testing on what?

[still locust]

When you get to a certain point, it's not really that different playing the different builds

[coral harness]

Is monk the best now

[still locust]

Who knows

But people will probably not want to invite bears because "you got nerfed, you're a dead spec"

[abstract raven]

Yesh it is but isn’t 2 buttons with 0 rage management is a way easier then trying to play around ravage procs don’t know just be only on 19/20s atm

[abstract raven]

Don’t know probs gonna be close to the same

[still locust]

Don't know if I'd call it way easier. It's easier for sure, but at Gnome's level IF management and playing around Ravage is pretty much just muscle memory

[abstract raven]

Yesh probs

But talking the general man

[still locust]

For the general bear, probably is easier yes

But at the end of the day, if you're playing like no raze dotc then you're using all your rage on IF until ravage proc

So it's not like it's very complicated at all

[ocean stump]

lol awoo and squish are currently running all bears in +20 MC

[abstract raven]

Yesh probs very true I’m keen too see it Razeless will take over EC apex less

[still locust]

Nothing will really change

Apex builds might be stronger than no-apex

But we'll still have like 6 or 7 very viable builds

Full maul DOTC
Razeless DOTC
Thrash+MF No Apex EC (Ewwww)
Thrash+Mangle No Apex EC
Thrash+Mangle+Maul No Apex EC
Apex EC

Technically speaking even convoke is viable in keys if you hate yourself

The standard* thrash+MF build doesn't pick up soul of the forest. You would pick that up and press mangle for rage, and some minor damage on ST

Standard being the build popularized by Awoo I think

[still locust]

That's also with maul

If you want mangle but no maul you would swap that Killing Blow and Raze to quite literally anything else

Doesn't matter which, nothing you can pick has a huge impact

[celest dune]

The question is... Will monks be kings again in m+?

[still locust]

Probably in the public perception if nothing else

Which is what matters for invites

Not that you won't get invited at all, you're still a tank and in demand

Yes

On all targets imo

Rage good

[olive hare]

Wasnt referring to raid performance though. M+ Boss damage suffered a lot already.

[abstract raven]

Going to be mega close i would argue Bear + Mw better then Brew + Rdruid

[zenith wing]

with swipe being buffed how does that affect the emerging swipe build the pros were suggesting?

[ashen sandal]

is this where we doom

[still locust]

Do you really want to go down this route again?

You already got a warning 6 days ago

[still locust]

Depends, do you want temporary doom or perma doom? Because ferals are better at long-term dooming

[ashen sandal]

[zenith wing]

is the build not good?

[ashen sandal]

ill take some tempdoom

[still locust]

Then yes, you've come to the right place

[abstract raven]

Depending on your group Yehs I play Phys so I play Bear + Mw

[still locust]

We've had like 3 "Is BRM meta/m+ kings now?" in like 10 minutes

[glossy vapor]

What about guardian + resto sham?

[abstract raven]

Prettty good depending on your comp

[grand plinth]

Alright gamers

you asked

you recieve

DOTC no raze MT 20

[glossy vapor]

Aug/unholy/debourer

[abstract raven]

Yesh it’s alright I’d argue Mw better

[abstract raven]

Aye not joining Squish and Awoo do 20s

[glossy vapor]

But better then Brew+restodruid?

[abstract raven]

Yes

[glossy vapor]

Ty

[abstract raven]

Rdruid Poo poo

[grand plinth]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/PBgk1tXy6bw2RGVd?fight=last&type=damage-done

[abstract raven]

Take the player not the class if you have lust + Brez should be fine

[sullen cove]

Guardian nerfs dont look so bad am i right? Gonna be broken still. Shoutout to the 5 guardians timing 20 mt 😂😂

[still locust]

We'll be fine

Still 6-ish viable builds

[abstract raven]

Your overall is close to the same as what my Apex less EC bulid

How did the timer fell compard to EC

[grand plinth]

Also I lied

I didnt do 10k boss dam

I did 10k less dam on boss enocunter

I bet you can guess why

in AA

[lone star]

Im deleting my druid and leveling my monk, its literally over. How could they do this to us

[grand plinth]

Against bosses I did about 8k more as DOTC than the top AA 20 EC log

[latent badger]

After this nerf can I switch back to DOTC+apex from Elune nopex?

[still locust]

This is fully expected

[still locust]

You already can!

[lucid arrow]

after this nerf can i still play nopex

i dont want to press buttons

[still locust]

Most likely yes!

[midnight pine]

anyone up for a 16 all tanks?

[lucid arrow]

maybe the nerf will make sundering roar not worth and ill be able to press even fewer buttons

[honest vine]

What build are the higher ups suggesting post nerf

[gusty heath]

How big of a nerf is it to ursoc?

[gloomy reef]

Can i still turn off my brain or is brew gonna be the play lol

[grand plinth]

Realistically likely the same stuff

But I think my alt builds will be better relative

[still locust]

We'll have to see how the nerf is implemented

But our recommendation of thrash+mangle+maul (with possible raze) doesn't change really

Either as EC or DOTC

Well, dotc would spec apex

EC might pick apex (somewhat likely) but no apex probably still fine for lazy keys

[honest vine]

Sounds awsome sauce

[midnight pine]

i remember you saying no apex was not going to be good xD

[trim hinge]

As long as it makes them rework apex to feel good with both hero talents I'm ok with the changes

[honest vine]

He informed me a couple of days ago to not run swipe if you go no apex

[still locust]

I still think apex is a better profile both in terms of gameplay and what it hits

And the thrash+MF spam build is still not good

It works, it's not that good though
Rage is good

Mangle is rage

[midnight pine]

i need 3 bear for a 16 run fun xD

come help

[copper hornet]

Nerfs provide rage

[still locust]

Swipe is at best a filler ability, you never really think about using it

[gusty heath]

Considering they timed a 23 with it. I might say it was good

If not the best

[copper hornet]

Classic

Timeless even

[trim hinge]

I like having ironfurs instead of feeling forced to press raze to have aggro tbf

[still locust]

It worked, doesn't mean it's better

You can't draw that conclusion from the data

Or I mean you can, but you shouldn't

[gusty heath]

Okay post a key where you run a different build at 23 and time it? Not trying to be an ass but until it’s proven otherwise the results or data, speaks for itself

[midnight pine]

2 more bears please

[strange hazel]

EU?

[midnight pine]

US xD

[still locust]

Always the same argument

1 build SUCCEEDING doesn't mean the other's CAN'T

Just that they HAVEN'T

[reef stump]

1 week druid is strong -> instant nerf .., brew retake the lead lel

[gusty heath]

Can someone smarter than me tell me if my math is right here? My thrash did 79m in a key 25% of that gives like 59m of that my ursoc will give me a shield for 17m damage/59m vs the 23m damage shield for 79m thrash damage

[honest vine]

@grand plinth what are the alt builds that you have been cooking up

[still locust]

We don't know how they implement the 25% nerf

[shut jolt]

any particular io requirements?

[daring nymph]

probs not

[honest vine]

@jovial turtle he is one of the higher ups

[still locust]

Just a bear trying to help other bears play better

[ashen sandal]

so true

[daring nymph]

someone who does decently high keys

[gusty heath]

You mean base damage vs off the top?

[daring nymph]

and helps do math

and helps other peak bear players

like gnome

[still locust]

Or even reducing the 200% we got down to 175% (this is very unlikely but still)

[ashen sandal]

who are you though

[trim hinge]

We are bears

[cinder nacelle]

Not even a guarantee they will do 25%, could end up being another number

[still locust]

I fail to see how that is relevant

[ashen sandal]

no 22s = opinion invalid

[honest vine]

who are you bro talking to the higher ups like that

[ashen sandal]

who are u mate!!

[still locust]

If you don't think my opinion is valid because of some perceived lack of credentials, then feel free to ignore me

[honest vine]

RonPlayzGamez mate its right there

[still locust]

A guy getting a warning on reset for actively trolling people who were asking about how to play bear

[ashen sandal]

ah, my bad

[honest vine]

All god Oi you seem like a decent man

one of culture

[daring nymph]

im doing 22's my professional opinion is

[ashen sandal]

[still locust]

He's a moonkin....

[daring nymph]

listen to apex and noapex good

[still locust]

[ashen sandal]

dont make me bring out my r1 lura..

[honest vine]

I like the chickens

[still locust]

Unfortunate...

[honest vine]

Sorry that trying to bring unity and peace to the druid class as a whole is an unfortuante thing

[ashen sandal]

minor spelling mistake, laugh at user..

[honest vine]

im such a chud

[lime hemlock]

shame on you. making that poor guy tank so you can dps

[merry quest]

https://tenor.com/view/bigbird-one-of-these-things-is-not-like-the-others-gif-11251276

[zenith wing]

trying to cook up some new builds rn

[halcyon jackal]

nerf prot war is coming

how th did you get 70k hps as a prot war ?

[hoary wharf]

Your reroll is safe mate, those 17s will be easy

[noble locust]

You're doing BAER only wrong

[white sentinel]

Any intimate way to display MDT routes mid run with an overlay or does one need a second monitor?

[still locust]

You could draw it with a sharpie on your monitor

[white sentinel]

I try but I always end up drawing a penis. I'm dangerous with a Sharpie

[indigo forge]

MDT Guide - puts an overlay of the route on your screen and goes to the next pull when all the mobs in that pull is dead (You need to have very accurate MDT's to the routes youre doing for it to work though)

[gusty heath]

Does thrash dot damage contribute to the ursoc shield?

[long narwhal]

was ursocs guidance CDR reduced? wasnt it 2 secs before?

[merry quest]

Yes

[gusty heath]

Hmm concerning then

[still locust]

The dot is a very minor part of your damage/UF breakdown though

[tacit thicket]

I wake up see Chinese players playing 5 druids in +20 into nerf

Bruh

[still locust]

It hasn't been 2 seconds for the whole changelog that wowhead has for it

It used to be 20 rage for 1 second, now it's 25 rage for 1 second

But we have higher rage generation than when that was so it's still about the same CDR

[mighty nebula]

is there info about guardian nerfs in %, somwhere?

[still locust]

Only the bluepost, we don't know how it's implemented yet

Maybe someone with the maths will make estimates

But this close to reset not much point imo

[quaint pond]

Just look at your logs

[mighty nebula]

would you say it is a lot or small nerf

[quaint pond]

Remove 25% from thrash direct

[outer flame]

spec is dead now

[still locust]

Depends on build, but if you were spamming thrash and MF before you're going to lose a lot

[still locust]

Bear is fine

[north zodiac]

I mean honestly no one didnt see a nerf coming. the first key I did I said 100% nerf coming. What is so annoying is the insanely wild swings they are doign with tuning which is what is bugging me.

I am hoping this will actually bring us back down to a realistic level? Or am I wrong?

[still locust]

Still will have 6 viable builds

No-apex thrash+MF spam is hurt the most by this nerf, but will probably still be viable for some lazy keys

[gusty heath]

Yeah that’s what I was wondering trying to compare my logs post nerf @quaint pond if it’s both direct and dot or just direct

[outer flame]

elune's chosen being nerfed by a whopping 40% probably killed the spec

[still locust]

It 100% won't

How the fuck is EC nerfed by 40% from a 25% nerf

Even if Thrash was 100% of your damage done, it would only be a 25% nerf

[outer flame]

10% of 25% is 40%

[still locust]

But it's not 100% of your damage

[merry quest]

Favoured not chosen

[still locust]

Elune's Favored nerf is irrelevant

In actual keys it did like 70-90% overhealing

[merry quest]

Now it might only overheal 60% and not 85%+

[outer flame]

Not in high keys, good sir

[merry quest]

[still locust]

Yes, in high keys

First day someone linked a +20 key with 90% overhealing from EF

[outer flame]

well I check with logs, it doesn't overheal by that much

[merry quest]

Literally on day 1 it was overhealing 20s by like 80-90%

[mystic sage]

Can they buff our snap threat at least to make up for the thrash nerf

[midnight flint]

Do I get 6 tokens of merit when I do 3 tier 1 vault slot activities?

[still locust]

Snap threat will be fine

[still locust]

yeah, each open slot is 2 tokens

Assuming this nerf brings the 200% buff down to 150% buff (relative to before the buff reset), we'll still be more than fine for snap threat

[outer flame]

most likely druid of the claw

[mystic sage]

Ok that's good

[still locust]

I personally think a +50% back on last reset would have been enough, maybe 75%

So +150% is still alright

[merry quest]

Damage will obvs take a hit, you’ll still be plenty sturdy

[still locust]

We'll still have about 6 viable builds so you can try out the different options and see what you prefer

Some like dotc and ravage, some like EC, some like no-apex

Lots of options

[solar adder]

11,8% damage loss, -26% ursoc healing

[white sentinel]

I've got all 12s finished with +++ using the shiny mobs routes. For some reason I'm thinking I can't time higher with those routes. Is that a valid thought or am I overthinking it?

[mystic sage]

The healing nerf is so irrelevant

[north zodiac]

all that really matters is can we do nice chonky pulls still and survive while giving our dps big boners

[solar adder]

Still going to be good

[mystic sage]

It's just to slap the people playing without healers (aka 5 Chinese bears in a 20)

[still locust]

The blizz-assisted routes aren't very efficient

[outer flame]

it's a 40% of elune's chosen value.

[still locust]

You could probably do a lot higher with more experience, and a better group

But might aswell start practicing better routes

[mystic sage]

You keep saying that but I don't think it's true lol

[still locust]

[merry quest]

Which 👏 overhealed 👏 a 👏 metric 👏 fuckton 👏

Say it with me now team

[grand plinth]

I have an Ec Raze and an DOTC No raze

[outer flame]

there's no thinking involved, it's just statstics

[still locust]

it with me now team

[mystic sage]

It

[merry quest]

Ty

[static cipher]

Overhealing is the best kind of healing

[solar adder]

Where are u getting ur statistics????

[spare sail]

Chocapic

[misty vector]

Can you stop making it sound so dramatic trying to scare like newer people? This nerf is completly, COMPLETLY whatever. With MW in the meta it is so irrelevant you will prolly not even notice it got nerfed. Cool, you loose 30% overhealing and maybe need 1 SCK of your MW more... stop dooming. Its actually crazy to read that all the time...

[mystic sage]

Source: I made it up

[outer flame]

what is 10% of 25%? its 2.5%, multiple that by 4 you get 10%, that's 40% of elune's chosen value.

[white sentinel]

Aren't top tier Bears saying the nerf is a win because it keeps the build more than viable?

[still locust]

I'm still of the thought that EC (while doing 90% overhealing itself) also just moved passive healer healing to overhealing instead

[still locust]

Sure, why not

[spare sail]

"there's no thinking involved"

[still locust]

Wait I reread what you wrote

[mystic sage]

LOL

[still locust]

Yes the no-apex build will remain viable

Very much so

[outer flame]

I'm not dooming really, It's just stats mate

[still locust]

Apex probably performs better

But you can still be lazy with no-apex if you want to

[daring nymph]

but this dude in the forum says that doesnt matetr and it was a 5% nerf :) somehow

[still locust]

Lots of numbers being pulled from lots of dark smelly places

[still locust]

This guy has the right line of thought, but EF probably just "steals" a decent chunk of healing from the healer

That's how trickle healing at low amounts work

[outer flame]

Do you think blood dk "steals" healing from a healer?

[queen aspen]

buff ravage -> wait ravage is op nerf ravage -> wait apex is bugged fix apex buff apex -> wait ravage is still op nerf ravage -> ok maybe we went too far buff ravage -> fuck now its op again nerf it again, but make thrash 3x stronger to compensate it, they won't complain right? -> fuck 5 bears now doing timed +20s nerf thrash

OMEGALUL

[shut jolt]

no. healers steal from bdk

its literally in the rotation to heal themselves. so healers steal bdk healing

[spare sail]

"there's no thinking involved"

[mystic sage]

It's almost like they rushed pushing the expansion out without proper testing

[still locust]

VERY big difference between active death strike healing for large chunks, and EF healing for constant low amounts the whole key

[outer flame]

it's as if we have frenzied regeneration in our mitigation toolkit as well hmm

[still locust]

Bear was fine, then they randomly buffed apex from 150% to 300% and aura nerfed by 20% and that's sort of where it derailed

[spare sail]

No it isnt

[still locust]

Yeah, frenzied regen isn't EF though

[outer flame]

Never claimed it was.

[mystic sage]

It was a really weird change lol

[shut jolt]

what does EF stand for?

[outer flame]

Elune's favored

[queen aspen]

are they using the unpaid version of chatgpt to patch this class?

maybe.

[misty vector]

To all the people beeing scared that they rerolled for nothing, as long as MW is really good as it is right now there is no other source for MOTW. Even if bear is now equal with brew (which it prolly might be, they are tanky in different with bear doing bit more dps) then guardian is still the best source of MOTW for the meta setup as in Guardian, MW, DDH, UHDK, Aug.

You will most likely still be fine, it will be played still and its now more or less up to you, do you prefer brew or bear? Can play both. Dont worry too much about it.

But also be realistic, if i do 1.1 mil peak dps on a 279 bear in AA21 first pull... they have to do smth, obviously

[prime epoch]

You were not kidding

[outer flame]

Oh look that's not a 90% overheal

[shut jolt]

ah

[prime epoch]

65% is absurdly high, you realise that right?

[merry quest]

Nah, any lower and guardian would just fall over tbh

[mystic sage]

It might as well be 90% cuz 0 real healing is still 0

[outer flame]

I do, which is nerfed by 40% so less healing and less overhealing overall

[queen aspen]

its not that I'm unhappy with the nerfs. Its just that EVERY SINGLE WEEK this class gets 'balanced' like crazy

[pearl lake]

A nerf to overhealing is not a nerf at all

[coral oak]

Go back to monk then

[outer flame]

you won't overheal all the time mate, you need healing when it matters, let's use dk as example again if u use deathstrike at full hp, and get hit after without runic power you die

[outer flame]

I never played monk, I hate monks

[queen aspen]

people get paid to patch this game?

[mystic sage]

Why do you keep comparing a passive heal to death strike

They're completely different

[outer flame]

It's just an analogy to showcase importance of strong healing, u can use another ability if u wish, not a big deal.

[raven briar]

Sounds like skill issues

[mystic sage]

LOL

[finite cave]

wtf am I reading

[outer flame]

I'm not the guy playing the dk in the analogy I just made up...

[raven briar]

Just don’t run out of runic power??

[mystic sage]

That's where the "mysterious" part of his name comes in

[grand panther]

How big îs the nerf guys?
I was really happy with my Dudu
Timed some 14 keys ( casual player)

[outer flame]

are we gonna have arugements about what's in my head?

[abstract raven]

Keep playing it won’t effect you

[misty vector]

Thats cool, but think about it urself. Does elunes fav. do anything during those pulls ursocs kept you on a stable 100% healthbar? No. Instead of beeing at 100% hp now in incarn, you ll drop to 90% every now and then. Very scary....

[indigo forge]

You're not completely wrong, MWs have smart heal in their kit, you do want to be topped in some pulls so youre not stealing hps from group - with ursocs shields nerfed we're going to be at max health less..
Also health going up is nice and they've nerfed it ig..

[outer flame]

I honestly haven't seen squishvegan tweet, but it does check out with what I said, no way someone with common sense, sees a passive healing be nerfed by 40% and think "oh that's fine"

[tall basin]

100% right ❤️

[half surge]

hey guys, with the build we use in m+ (arcane focused one) do we even press mangle?

[queen aspen]

nah just to get rid of the mangle procs cluttering the screen

or else just press moonmoon spit

[pearl lake]

Any time EF would overheal, there is no nerf to our healing.

Any time EF doesn't overheal at all, there's a 40% nerf to its healing.

EF is 12% of our healing anyway, and overheals 75% of the time on average top level keys.

The thrash nerf is significantly more of a healing nerf than the EF one.

[daring nymph]

yall legit need to learn how to math

[toxic comet]

https://raider.io/characters/eu/darksorrow/Sepponen I just started tanking my druid. I can pug heroic raid / heroic dreamrift, but probably cant pug mythic raids. What dungeons should I use my bonusrolls prefrably? I need 298 weapon asap next week i guess?

[daring nymph]

i know the american education system failed alot of you

but theres still time

[static cipher]

Hey! A lot of us resemble that remark!

[outer flame]

and instead of refuting with logic he'd rather attack you, It's kinda...low class

[queen aspen]

그러게 한국인도 있는데 ㅋ 지들끼리 잘 싸운다

anyways

[pearl lake]

If I had a spell that did 100 Trillion damage, and blizzard nerfed it by 50%, would I be weaker in any way?

[queen aspen]

ec raid build still viable?

[outer flame]

Yes, you would be 50% weaker.

[misty vector]

If you have people here trying to help you beeing less scared about the nerf, cause its defo deserved and nothing of that nerf makes it unplayable and you still come up with a argument everytime that person X Y said this or that... then i think you just believe what you believe and its fine.

[pearl lake]

LMAO

[still locust]

Would you be worse at timing keys though?

[outer flame]

in +200 keys yes

[daring nymph]

im american

[pearl lake]

Okay, so it's a troll

[prime epoch]

Lets sit and do the math properly alright
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/PCbk62LMqAX34xFv?fight=6&type=damage-done&source=5

Thrash direct damage did 65.6k dps
It'll now do 49.2k dps, which is a loss of 16.4k dps
If we only include that, it's an hps loss of 4k hps

So elunes favored would go from 39k hps to 35k hps
35k hps at 25%, turns into 21k hps at 15%
(It did 14k hps when you removed the overhealing)

As for ursocs fury, you'd go from 85k dps to 66k dps, or a 23% loss
Same 23% loss would make ursocs fury go from 26.5k hps to 20.6k hps

This doesnt include natures guardian

[mystic sage]

Ah yes the old motte-and-bailey approach

[daring nymph]

yall legit making wild cvlaims that this nerf is close to a 2 key level nerf

when its not

[prime epoch]

And i realised i forgot to include the elunes favoured nerf, sec

[upbeat pewter]

[abstract quartz]

hi guys sorry if it has been answered a lot

what are the numbers for the nerf ?

[daring nymph]

maybe you shouldnt fotm then?

[finite cave]

what level of keys do you even do

like, seriously

[prime epoch]

There

[finite cave]

do you ACTUALLY need to have every tank up for hypothetical buffs and nerfs? or have you just convinced yourself you do

[trim plaza]

good news is, they are looking to fix our apex talent in the future (surely)

[queen aspen]

this. why should we feel this every week?

[tall basin]

you stream today?

[finite cave]

what are you calling high keys?

[pearl lake]

Okay, so what does the nerf look like after you remove overhealing after the changes? That's the entire argument.

[abstract quartz]

mistweaver here, we cope on that aswell

[queen aspen]

Do you like your character randomly change stats everytime you log in?

[daring nymph]

what is high key here

[outer flame]

Thanks mate, In spirit of transperancy, bear will still be good, BUT It's important to be honest about the potency of the nerfs.

[green bane]

90% of these peeps will be doing 12s as their highest

[queen aspen]

that's what it feels to play bear this season

[edgy merlin]

Blizzard did fuck up the latest patch but I really don't see how it fucks up players. It's pretty much your own fault if you fotm rerolled to bear and expected no nerfs to an obviously overpowered state

[fierce crow]

Can someone do a 4 protection warrior + 1 healer run on +20

[finite cave]

[prime epoch]

I dont think it'd be smart to assume you'd have the same rate of overhealing after a reduction in hps

But for the sake of it, it'd go from 14k hps to 8.5k hps

[fierce crow]

or a 5 man protection paladin run

[floral edge]

how much dmg we lose with the -25% thrash dircet dmg?^^

[finite cave]

what tf even does housing have to do with what was said

[misty vector]

These keys that got timed this week dont matter at all. Think about it, there is a hand-full of people that had a guardian prepped from progress, they had max ilvl, perfectly timed with the broken buff it got. Those 23s are whatever in 2 weeks, everyone hits max gear, alot of people will time 23s 24s at this point (EVEN WITH NERFED GUARDIAN BTW HEHE)

It was broken, it deserved a nerf.

Still my argument stands, guardian is the best source of MOTW for the Metacomp, Rdruid dps is shambles and it also got nerfed in the past.

You can absolutly play both tanks now in highest keys and that is a big win imo if it comes to balance.

If you feel double monk, go brew and mw fuck motw, also works... Dont overthink all that stuff too much really

[pearl lake]

No, it wouldn't, because in most of those ticks there was spare healing. That's the whole point people are making.

[solar adder]

That run will be over fast

[pastel surge]

@misty vector Are u plying druid or brew for keys now ?

[outer flame]

that's pretty easy, every paladin takes a dangerous mob in big pulls, rotate healing, have 3 of them spec into single target dmg for bosses etc

[edgy merlin]

Why don't you just keep playing bear (or whatever tank you enjoy). Bear was good before the latest patch and will be good after the changes. Why reroll to the latest flavor every time

[prime epoch]

Nah

[pearl lake]

You're measuring a reduction in total healing including overhealing - the actual nerf that matters is the nerf on EFFECTIVE healing. If there was overhealing to spare, then the nerf to healing done doesn't change effective healing.

[prime epoch]

You dont spec into ST for 5 tank keys, you just pull more mobs onto the bosses

[prime epoch]

Yeah, that was my point in bringing up that the overhealing is larger than the projected nerf

As in, if you only need 10k hps, but oyure doing 40k hps, halving the healing it can do doesnt affect anything

[misty vector]

I really dont know. Obviously i was in hope i can taste the OP guardian juice a bit now that its 90 and maxgeared on reset... but on the bright side i now have brew and guardian on max gear next week and we can just see whats up

[outer flame]

Solaenni, I get what you're saying, I just don't understand why not admit that it is actually a nerf to effective healing, to deny that is to deny math.

[pearl lake]

Nobody is saying it's not a nerf at all, but it's not a 40% nerf to effective healing from EF. That's what you claimed and it's patently false.

[finite cave]

to "deny math" there needs to be contradictory information presented chief

as in, actual numbers and data

not "it's an x% nerf trust bro"

[oblique badge]

im pugging 20s on 278ilv, chill. The nerf wont kill the druid at all, it wont change anything.
Brew/Guard will stay meta

[outer flame]

I never said it was a 40% nerf to effective healing, I said it's a 40% nerf to EF value seeing as it went from 25% to 15%

[queen aspen]

whatever this or that I hate blizz for fucking up this class every single week since launch, thats it

not playing this class anymore bye

[edgy merlin]

The main thing is that most of the overhealing happens when you don't need the healing (duh). There are still situations where you get benefit from most of the healing (incarn down, no bark or lb, big pull still going). The healing nerf is mainly a nerf in those situations where it's mainly thrash healing and shielding keeping you up. Don't know yet how meaningful but I guess we will see

[green bane]

Bye. See you in two weeks.

[oblique badge]

3 weeks is PoE2 🤔

[pearl lake]

orly

[outer flame]

in spirit of honesty "Killed the spec" is an over-reaction yes, but is the 40% comment wrong?

[pearl lake]

EF will not be doing 40% less effective healing after reset. That's just raw facts. You were wrong.

[outer flame]

I never said 40% less effective healing, I said 40%, you keep adding effective to my mouth, that's not a position I took.

[trim plaza]

sadly it already overhealed like 80%

[pearl lake]

effective healing is the number that matters. It's not a nerf by 40% in the only metric that matters.

[outer flame]

That's a different discussion, my goal is that we shouldn't underestimate these nerfs so blizzard doesn't get comfortable nerfing us

If they stop here, I'm good

[pearl lake]

reality is a different discussion lmao

[floral edge]

how much %dmg we lose with nerf?

[still locust]

The fuck do you mean "get comfortable nerfing us"

Brother

What

[finite cave]

O_o

[pearl lake]

k, you keep living in your fantasy world where we aren't talking about the things that matter in game 🙂

[edgy merlin]

If we write a nice letter to blizzard they wont nerf us more

[still locust]

Good estimate is to take 25% off the direct damage of thrash in a log of yours

[trim plaza]

ye but in overall dungeons it did crazy amounts of overheal

and this was checked

wasnt some +20 EF healing 90% overheal

[outer flame]

why do you think it doesn't matter? Are you claiming blizzard never made changes due to community reactions? these things are not in a vacuum

[finite cave]

brother you are talking about "not underestimating so blizzard doesn't get comfortable nerfing"

[edgy merlin]

Yeah but it's not 90% overheal all the time. It's 100% some of the time and maybe 0% in (rare) tough situations. That's where the nerf hits the most

[still locust]

When talking about EF it's important to talk about "contributes to overhealing" rather than just "does overhealing"

[pearl lake]

nerfs to overheal don't make us weaker in game. Effective healing is the only metric that matters when it comes to actual peformance. If you want to fantasise about theoretical numbers that have no impact, you do you.

[still locust]

Because in all cases EF will contribute to overhealing, either from yourself or from your healer

[trim plaza]

i mean, obviously

[elder obsidian]

So how trash nerf will work with less aggro? They moved power from raze to trash to fix aggro issues and now they are nerfing trash too?

[still locust]

Even if EF does 0% overhealing for you for a period, it will almost definitely make the healers healing on you overheal

[still locust]

The assumption is that the +200% buff from last reset will go down to +150% compared to before last reset. Threat will be more than fine

[outer flame]

but you admitted earlier that it does nerf effective healing, what I'm saying is not that outrageous really.

[covert storm]

druid of the claw is preferable now?

[floral edge]

how i see the direct hits in my logs i just see casts and dps?

[pearl lake]

Not by 40%. That's the only thing I ever said and it's the only thing people arguing with you ever said.

[still locust]

Click the small arrow next to thrash to unfold. Top damage is the direct portion, small damage is dot portion

[still locust]

You threw out a random number and now you're bleeding out on the hill defending the number

[floral edge]

ah ok ty

[pearl lake]

It's a much smaller nerf than that and not enough to be anywhere near as significant as people are claiming given that the talent already only did 12% of our HPS

[still locust]

Wild choice on this fine tuesday

[outer flame]

it's not a random number, imagine you have 25 potatoes, someone takes 10 potatoes out of you, you have 15 potatoes left, 40% of your potateos are gone, how is it a random number?

[mystic sage]

Getting a lot of mileage out of clicking this channel at 3am on a Tuesday

[pearl lake]

If you're only eating 5 of them and the rest are literally being thrown out, you're not losing anything that matters.

[mystic sage]

No you see, they threw out the 5 he was gonna eat, the other 10 have spots

[still locust]

Well no, you won't get fucked

Even in the worst case possible, the nerf is fairly minor

[pearl lake]

No, I'm going off what he literally said. He said it's 40% which is a significant nerf. We're saying it's not 40% on any meaningful number and it's not a significant nerf.

[mystic sage]

He will starve

[still locust]

The majority of your selfhealing was always in UF, EF and mastery

And as EC also in LB healing+leech

[neat fox]

guys, just saw wowhead. how dead are we? or not that bad?

[mystic sage]

Well first imagine you have 25 potatoes

[opaque dome]

We are fine

[oblique dagger]

This channel is something else man hahahaha

[still locust]

[pearl lake]

first vaguely measured nerf to bear from blizzard all expansion

[still locust]

Nothing really changes, we'll still have 6 viable builds depending on your preference for build and playstyle

Threat will be fine, and survivability will be fine

[slim cargo]

Looking at 5 guardins in +20 Maisara has made my day 😄 😄

Who all watching?

[edgy merlin]

Probably best to go back to DotC now, will probably put out similar numbers now without massive effort

[neat fox]

nopex laser bear with 2 buttons still viable?

[still locust]

Yes, but a bit worse

[neat fox]

okay so like brew? because before it seemed we become meta

[still locust]

I don't expect a huge difference between the 2 hero trees at this point both in performance and effort

[glad cairn]

this is wild lol

[still locust]

Fits, bears are wild

[still locust]

Honestly more excited to see where they take apex

I'm hopeful

[edgy merlin]

True

Maybe worth dropping EF and crap talents now for EC apex as well

[still locust]

My dream scenario is probably that one of the points is "casting IF makes your next maul free" or something

[edgy merlin]

Ot

[still locust]

Imagine if pressing IF gave TnC

[elder obsidian]

I really like how they nerfed bear in 6 days, but brew could be on top for 2 months XD

[still locust]

Yeah, probably

[abstract raven]

Tnc?

[still locust]

Tooth and Claw

[olive hare]

I'd Love that!

[edgy merlin]

Or each IF press deals some aoe dmg

[abstract raven]

Hot

[oblique dagger]

Imagine the Apex becomes a new thorns of iron, pressing ironfur causes an echo of maul/raze lmfao

[mystic sage]

Wait a minute...

[still locust]

I hope to god if they bring back toi they rework it

Because I cannot live through another "IF SPAM 4 LYFE" expansion

I don't mind the thought behind toi, but the iteration we had was AWFUL

[mystic sage]

Yeah my wrist did not like the super spam lol

[still locust]

What if they just buffed brambles, and moved it to the apex and onto IF instead of barkskin

[edgy merlin]

You just need to press IF to the disco bear beat to deal maximum damage

[oblique dagger]

I enjoyed the ToI style build in dragon flight, before they nerfed it (they capped the amount of armour to damage I think)

[tacit venture]

I wouldnt mind damage and uncapped swipe buff, the main issue has always been threat no, and with thrash on a 5s cd, swipe would be good for a initiator I guess

[still locust]

I genuinely can't remember what they did in DF vs TWW for toi

[edgy merlin]

It was fun doing top logs with bristling fur soaking boss frontal

With hp pot and HS

[still locust]

The problem is that then you will have people spamming swipe because "it works" and it will be awful and bear reputation will tank (even more than it has)

[tulip surge]

For all

[tacit venture]

For sure, all I'm saying really is, as long as they fix our pullthreat issue, I'm all good with what ever throws our way.

[tulip surge]

"I checked the logs and compared a Monk's damage in a +20 Magister's Terrace: they're at around 215m. Right now, Druids are doing about 260m, but after the trash nerfs, it'll drop to around 225m. So, Druid is still gonna be the top tank; the healing nerf is negligible."

[still locust]

Thrashing once for threat is just fine, works the same for brew and pwar (keg smash and thunderclap)

[still locust]

They already kind of did. The question really is if they will undo the random massive thrash buff and replace it with a more permanent solution

[tulip surge]

"I checked the logs and compared a Monk's damage in a +20 Magister's Terrace: they're at around 215m. Right now, Druids are doing about 260m, but after the trash nerfs, it'll drop to around 225m. So, Druid is still gonna be the top tank; the healing nerf is negligible."

[tacit venture]

It's blizzard, I'm not seeing any fit changes soon #tm

[mystic sage]

I think the root of the issue is just our apex is very poorly thought out

[still locust]

Threat shouldn't be an issue right now, and I expect the apex rework is to make it not as CD-centric based on their wording

[mystic sage]

Yeah I'm waiting til they rework it to pass any kind of real judgement cuz rn it's just impossible to balance

[oblique dagger]

it'll be proc based like every other tank...except warr?

[tulip surge]

On august they rework

[still locust]

Honestly, random giga buffs to apex and thrash aside they really cooked well for bear going into midnight

So I'm staying hopeful

[mystic sage]

Yeah I have been enjoying bear (besides the random huge swings in our damage lol)

[oblique dagger]

in all honesty, the big burst windows in Incarn have felt quite fun with current Apex

[mystic sage]

I like the FR changes the most tbh, having a big on demand heal is so nice

Especially since they nerfed the regrowth proc and removed renewal

Not renewal

I don't remember what it was called LOL

[still locust]

The timeline of
Some people aren't picking apex at 150%, let's buff it to 300% and aura nerf by 20% to match
300% is too burst heavy, reduce burst and buff thrash direct to deal with threat issues from 20% aura nerf
Some people aren't picking apex because of thrash buff

Is funny

[mystic sage]

The talent you clicked and it healed you

[still locust]

It was renewal

[mystic sage]

Ok good LOL

[limpid hemlock]

Guys Guys. On a scale of 1 to 25 how big was the EF nerf for us and where do i go to get more potatoes?

[still locust]

Renewal and aessina's renewal was on a choice node

Removed renewal

[oblique dagger]

Ireland

[mystic sage]

🥔

[still locust]

[oblique dagger]

https://tenor.com/view/potatoes-sam-gamgee-same-po-tay-toes-gif-5319438

[unreal trench]

honestly cant believe they timed it

have to wonder if this will trigger extra nerfs

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ZgT9q1GMcpKL4HAC?fight=5&type=damage-done

[still locust]

I think they're satisfied with the nerfs

[marble thunder]

Blizzard really speed ran guardian nerfs lol

[unreal trench]

that was 8 hrs ago, when only 1 +20 dungeon had been bear soloed

(or only 1 that I knew of)

[still locust]

Yeah I don't think this key changes anything

[unreal trench]

we'll see

[still locust]

maybe they nerf thrash by 33% instead of 25%

[unreal trench]

I have no dog in this fight

[still locust]

But I doubt it

[pearl lake]

Would making Apex give thrash echoes make it more required?

[marble thunder]

Atleast they finally admit they fucked up with the apex talent

[still locust]

Depends, are you removing something else for it?

[slim cargo]

I was so glad they timed it.

[unreal trench]

would be kinda hard to deny it at this point

[trim plaza]

ye, just gonna see what they are gonna do with the apex talent

[unreal trench]

bear tuning this season has been uniquely egregious

[still locust]

Apex was fine, they just overbuffed it and aura nerfed when they shouldn't have

And that lead to threat issues

[olive hare]

Wouldnt overreact to these 5 bear keys. Whats a Mid S1 20 Key worth in comparison to other seasons before ? An 18 Key maybe? We've seen a ton of 5 Tank groups doing 18 keys in the past

[still locust]

Which lead to thrash getting giga buffed

Which lead to this situation

[unreal trench]

isnt about whether the players overreact, it's about whether blizzard overreacts

[mild jacinth]

Yo, how much of a % dmg loss was this nerf?

And would you say we are basicly equal to brew in dmg now?

[still locust]

Depends on build, I happen to have the +20 5 bear key up and Awoo would lose about ~10% damage

The less you rely on thrash, the less the nerf is

[unreal trench]

no-thrash bear build incoming

because fuck it why not

[mystic sage]

You know what's crazy to me

You can just not take Ironfur in the talent tree

[still locust]

Potato-farming?

[mystic sage]

LOL

[still locust]

I already ran some 13s for fun just to see

It was perfectly fine

[gilded pulsar]

mashed potatoes

[still locust]

And I know 13s aren't high keys but I was just randomly pugging the other day

[mystic sage]

See that's the wild part

[distant star]

But to do damage we have to rely on thrash no ?

[mystic sage]

I almost never use ironfur

[still locust]

Some builds run raze

[mystic sage]

Cuz raze is just better

[still locust]

Which contribute not-insignificant amounts of damage

[mystic sage]

Kill stuff faster = less damage taken

[unreal trench]

ironfur seems like one of those abilities that the hivemind just takes without realizing they rarely use it

[still locust]

1 or 2 stacks IF is definitely good because of the low investment

And EC especially has RNG moments of very high rage generation

[mystic sage]

I mean if you're not deep in the numbers you'd never know cuz you'd just assume that as a tank you should be using ironfur

[distant star]

But has the same damage with the thrash spam ?

[still locust]

Overall, yeah