#Spike's Runesmith, a half-caster with an unique type of spell list
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You don't need an arithmetic sequence necessarily
In fact, the 11-15-19 sequence would mean it never increases at the same level as the base feature, which is neat. Or 11-15-18 to avoid the ASI/Boon at 19
For that matter, you should probably clarify what happens at the end of a long rest, just in case. Or even put it in the same table?
One thing i find funny is that i tried to make the core class split between caster and martial
Part of it is because i had Storm Giants in mind, which are kinda more casters than the other 5
But ironically, one of the attacks that literally every Storm Giant has is called "Lightning Sword"
And that is not a hyperbole, i mean it
Every. Single. One.
-# 2025 Monster Manual changed the name of the attack to "Storm Blade", but it's still the same attack
@dreamy anchor
I think it was you who wanted a 3rd option for Ancient Order, right?
I'm considered renaming "Scribe" to "Seeker", and instead of proficiency in History and Arcana, you gain Expertise instead
And the lv 5 feature adds your Int Modifier to cantrips or weapon attacks (maybe a little too strong)
That way, Knight stays as the "full martial" option and Seeker becomes the caster/utility (and roguish) option
Oh speaking of, you mentioned you wanted to detach the two orders so you can mix and match with the later level, but really thats just gonna make heavy armor so much better than skills I think. Idk if you went ahead with it
I didn't, they're still tied together
Also, if anyone could check the Attunement Effects of the runes and see if they're more or less balanced, i'd be glad 
The ones i'm concerned about:
- Hill, Storm, Blood, Dragon, Life, War, Wind (Ovepowered)
- Journey, Light (Underpowered)
Sounds perfectly fine, though I don't think there's any reason to use weapons at 5 if you don't have Extra Attack, or Fighting Style, or Masteries
You can gain a Fighting Style at level 2, no matter your choice at level 1
But yeah, that makes sense
oh right, nevermind that one. But still
I just didn't want to make it too similar to Sneak Attack
But idk, i could always make it so that you also add your Int to the attack roll (for weapons only)
Not completely replacing Dex or Str
So it's still a little strong since either way you're increasing your damage, but to compensate for that you only have 1 attack
Nah, bonuses to attack are problematic. Lemme think
Then i could replace it completely 
I mean, it's level 5, other subclasses do it at 3 (Battle Smith, Armorer, UA Bladesinger), so i don't think that's broken
Bladelock is an exception and we do not talk about it
Or i could do it like Cleric and Druid where instead of Extra Attack, they get extra damage on their single weapon attack
Broken, no. Lame, yes. Also doesn't do much about the damage bump at 5. But honestly it'd make a decent part of an ability... 🤔
My original idea was:
Runic Staff: When you take the Attack action and attack using a Simple weapon, you can cast a cantrip as part of the same action
But it'd be neat if the third option wasn't just Caster v2 or Weapons v2
I don't think i'll add a 3rd option tbh lol
So maybe something like Int attacks plus some utility at 1, and then at 5 it's +Int to damage of both attacks and cantrips plus some more utility. That way you could choose, and attacks would stay viable
I realized later that my class' Runes are similar to the Mystic's Disciplines
They have a passive effect that is always on and you have to take a BA to change (Attunement Effect/Psychic Focus) and they have lists of spells you learn
Or in Mystic's case, spell-like effects
Hm, true. But is that bad? Mystic is pretty cool
It's overly complex
But i think that's because it tried to include too many mechanics at a time
It's like, 40 disciplines, each one with around 3-4 pseudo-spells, i think some also have 5
I'll finish this class (sometime in the future) but once i do, i'll probably make a 2nd version more similar to what i initially had in mind, which was inspired by the Rune Scribe UA
I fear that it will be similar to the Mystic, but i believe i can do it 
You should just scrap this and do it now
I already have the document XD
But since i've already put so much work in this version, i'll finish it first
I actually like how it's going
partially like, if this class isnt exactly what you had in mind, why keep pushin it
Because it's still cool
ah well theres that, if you do like it then sure by all means
Also:
The Mystic was able to change the Discipline it was focusing in with a Bonus Action, but no cost
Would it be too broken if i made it like:
- At level 1, you can swap your attuned Rune as a Bonus Action
- At level 3, you're always attuned to your subclass' Rune, and you can't swap out of it
- At level 15, you get extra damage on the spells from the list of the Rune(s) you're attuned to, but you're still locked to 1 (+ subclass) attunement at a time
?
I kinda dislike the idea of being able to swap Adv on a specific skill check to + 1 AC or Adv on saves against a specific condition at will, just using a Bonus Action
But tbf, Rune Knight gets like 5 at a time, and the runes that give Adv on skill checks give 2 at a time 
honestly one of the best parts of this forum ive found is that the direciton of builds changes (and typically for the better)
so i think keeping going is good, since the direction of this class is super cool imo
Like my class also swapped directons pretty signifigantly but, i think, to a more interesting place
gave rise to some features id have never thought of otherwise
I dont mind direction changes, but ive always usually had a solid foundation of exactly what I want and usually just refined to a better version. At least with the two classes ive made
That's true, but also I think from what i've seen of Witch you tend to come at things from a more thematic poitn and then find cool abilities that go with it
which is why witch is absolutely dripping with awesome witch-feel
whereas at least I (and I think spike also) kinda have cool mechanical ideas that need a good lore/feel raison d'etre
Dancer has always been about additional actions, witch is always been about familiars
So I usually just end up refining how its executed, rather than changing the concept
It's not criticism to be clear, just moreso a musing on the different thought processes ive seen so far on the forum
Though yeah theres that too, theme's really big for me
no for sure, the diversity definitely is great and helps refine ideas
Ok, so i was thinking:
Instead of adding extra damage like Divine Smite, what if Imbued Strike make it so that you can expend inscribed spells to add a modifier to a single attack roll equal to 2 × the combined levels of the spells?
I know it sounds a little broken, but Cleric can add +10 to a hit at like, level 3, which matches the 5th "combined spell level" you get at level 17
The only problem would be the 3rd level slot you get on a Short Rest at the same level
But tbh, you should be using them to cast spells in the first place
Eh, dunno. It doesn't feel like a good "secondary" usage, I feel? It should be something that you can use almost whenever, when you decide the spell won't be useful
Yeah, that's kinda why i dislike this option too
It's more reactive than proactive
I could just leave the THP, but leaving only a defensive option feels weird to me
I think i'll just leave the way it is 
I don't think it is the right time to make a new forum post for this 2nd version yet, especially considering i have nothing ready
But have you ever ready the Rune Scribe UA? Or at least checked the magic items from Storm King's Thunder?
If so, how would you make a class based on them?
I'm afraid that the class ends up feeling like Arcane Archer or Battle Master, where instead of new features, you just get more options
Well, for those subclasses those options are the features. And honestly, doesn't every fullcaster do basically that?
They get new level of spells though
Instead of "you get to choose your 22nd level 1 spell"
just make Maneuvers of different levels 
Tbh, that's technically what Warlock does too
But just like you said, some "maneuvers" (Invocations) are locked by level
I'm considering something like
- You know the Simple Properties of all your 6 Runes
- You know the Complex Properties of 3 of your Runes
- You know the Mastery Property (just created this) of only 1 Rune you know
And they unlock at different levels
sounds cool at first glance
I mean I sort of expected they're basically just how you did it previously, you inscribe a rune and it has an effect + an action
That's basically it tbh
tho again feels kinda like rune knight but class, but thats how the RK felt because thats how the runes were
I was thinking about how to do it and realized the current version is still probably the best way
I'll probably just add the "attunement" effect from the Runes, like the ones that affect your equipment, to the subclasses rather than the runes themselves
This way, you still feel like a "smith" rather than just a rune magic user
I mean, it's hard to make something rune-based (again, Giant runes) without being too similar to Rune Knight
thats also true
I actually dislike the part where it becomes a giant and i'd rather have it be exclusive to Giant Barbarian
I mean it came first haha
And i'm pretty sure there must be a Giant-less Rune Knight homebrew out there lol
Didn't know that
Giant Soul Sorcerer would be cool if it became official
RK was in Tasha's, Giant Barb was in BGG
One thing i can't really affirm but that may be the case is that rune magic in 5e is very different than other editions
Giantcraft, for example, had stuff like Rune of Binding, All-Seeing Eye of Annam, Rune of Love, stuff like that
The first appearance of the 5e runes (War, Fire, Life, Mountain, etc) that i noticed is 5e
Math is funny
No matter the formula i try to choose, the known spells progression is always irregular
The one you showed me before was pretty good it seems
I managed to find a way where you learn new spells every odd level besides 19
And it's actually very satisfying
Although this is the progression
The number in the parenthesis is how many spells you learned since the last time
I think thats what you showed before? Idk hahaha
Almost the same
Although i just noticed a pattern:
From level 1 to 5 you learn 4 spells
From 5 to 9 you learn 6
From 9 to to 13 you learn 8
From 13 to 17 you learn 10
Math is beautiful 
I'm very satisfied with the current state of the class, and i don't think i'll change any of the existing features
The only one i'm still a bit concerned about is the capstone because i don't really know what to do with it, so i wanted opinions on the current one
So the only things missing right now are the level 6 and 10 features
And i have no idea of what to put in there
I'll start developing the subclasses, maybe that will help me think about new features for the main class
And at the very end, i'll finish the spell list of each rune
perhaps some kind of Super Attunement effect for the rune that you're currently attuned to as part of the capstone?
For Runic Ward at 11th level, how long do the temporary hit points last?
Don't most spells or features that give you THP just ignore the duration so it is until the next Long Rest (i think) by default?
features like Adrenaline Rush ignore duration and reset on a Long Rest, yes
Then i'd have to think of 20 new passives and i'd rather not
and also i think i'll leave stuff like that for subclasses
and considering this is expending the runes you carve into your equipment (which is already quite the limited number) i feel like it's fine if no duration is given
fair enough
One of my concerns is the Runic Ward + Armor of Agathys interaction
But if you're expending all your 5 total spell levels on THP, might as well inscribe a level 5 False Life or AoA itself lol
My suggestions for the Stone Rune:
C: Resistance
1st: Shield
2nd: Arcane Vigor
3rd: Meld Into Stone
4th: Stoneskin
5th: Wall of Stone
Stone Giants are associated with just being durable as hell, with the Stone Giant option for Goliaths giving them their classic Stone's Endurance feature.
The problem is the Shield Rune itself 
Although i could make it similar to what i did to Blood Rune and Life Rune
Blood - Self-Healing
Life - Healing others
So:
Stone - Self-Protection
Shield - Protecting others
Goddammit, my bad.
Dw, i actually like this suggestion
So switch out shield and Arcane Vigor and we're good?
Shield is fine, i think
I'll probably add Shield of Faith to the Shield Rune since it can be used on other creatures
Arcane Vigor is part of the Blood Rune, so i'll add another spell
And Resistance is Dragon Rune since you know, defending yourself against Dragons
It's funny how the Dragon Rune is actually about how Giants and Dragons are enemies but the spell from Rune Shaper is Chromatic Orb, the generic "dragon" spell (Draconic Sorcerer also learns it)
My suggestions for the Storm Rune:
C: Shocking Grasp
1st: Witchbolt
2nd: Shatter
3rd: Lightning Bolt
4th: Control Water
5th: Scrying
Any chance for Cyclops, Formorian, or Troll runes?
I think it would be hard making runes for them since runes are more about concepts than creatures
But maybe i could make them for fun once everything is finished
Ah, fair enough.
Cyclops - Modify Memory
"Nobody blinded me!"
Cyclops' are actually associated pretty heavily with divination in 2024, even getting access to Legend Lore. I almost didn't want to add Scrying to the Storm Rune List but the Storm Giant Storm Caller had it in Bigby's and I couldn't find a better fitting 5th level spell.
Storm Giants are really about divination too
I like this class, finally a full intelligence half caster. I know we have Artificer but they're kind of their own thing.
I like the Artificer but i think it's too niche
When i think of an "Arcane" half-caster, i think of something like a Spellblade, similar to an Eldritch Knight
Not magical Tony Stark
I mean, my class also has a very niche theme due to the runes, but at least it's not official XD
And Artificer is pretty much the only half-caster who is more of a caster than a martial
How rigid of a format were you thinking of for your subclasses, like on a scale from Paladin to Fighter?
Wdym, like the Paladin having a very clear format for subclass features (CD option, Aura upgrade, BA stance) vs Fighter where subclass features don't really have a pattern?
Yes.
I'd say probably a middle ground
I don't know how i'll make the subclass yet besides:
- You get your subclass rune for free
- You're always attuned to your subclass rune
- This "extra passives" thing, like a Attunement Effect Plus
Also, the names might be a little silly for now
The general themes i have for the first two:
- Cloud - Nimble and stealthy, imagine an Arcane Trickster, might have some mind control, might not
- Fire - Budget Artificer, improves your equipment (like Ornn from LoL)
Going into this I thought each rune was based strictly on the types of giants and when I saw the subclasses I just thought "oh, you trained with/under/studied these guys" and if you you pick a rune that doesn't align with your subclass it was just you having some knowledge of their magic.
I don't get it
For the fire dude you might want to take some inspiration from the Smith of Kitava ascendancy class from POE2. Sounds a lot like what you were describing.
One thing i was thinking:
Since right now, you can change your attuned rune with a single BA without any costs, the capstone* feels kind dumb, since you're probably not casting more than 1 spell per turn
So i was thinking about either:
- Limiting (again) how many times you can change your attuned rune
- Making it a ritual of 1 minute so you can't do it mid-battle, so you have to prepare
-# *It makes you attuned to all your runes for 10 minutes
Or i could always make it like Rune Knight where you just know the passives of all your known runes tbh
I'd go with the latter, I imagine it's a rather tedious process so making it one minute makes more sense.
One of my original ideas was that you could also change your attuned rune by expending a level 3+ slot (no action) or cast a level 3+ spell of the rune you want to change to
I think the first option might be better, since at least you have more freedom
Hmm, fair.
Rune magic is indeed a very slow process, so it would be very flavorful
1 minute is already very quick tbh, but who cares 
I decided to be less generous and kept Carved Aspect only be changeable on a SR or expending a lv 3+ slot
Rn, i'm considering making it give Advantage on spell attack rolls and increase the DC of your spells by 1, just like Innate Sorcery
That way, it's useful for both combat encounters and non-combat too, like if you need to create an illusion or charm someone
But the problem is:
- It steps on Sorcerer's toes a little due to Innate Sorcery being a thing
- You're always attuned to your subclass rune, so having permanent Advantage and +1 to DC for 5 spells + 1 cantrip seems a lot, not including the other, changeable attuned rune, so it's actually double that
- The capstone would be straight up just Innate Sorcery
The easiest solution i can think of is to obviously make it limited, like you can only empower a spell in this way Int Mod or 2 times that per LR
But it only solves 1/3 of the problems
@shrewd rock
Let's say i give each rune a fitting damage type (like Necrotic for Death Rune) and allow the player to, at level 6 or 10, as part of a Short Rest, imbue a weapon or a shield/piece of armor, being able to deal extra damage/get Resistance to that type
Would it be too broken?
My main inspiration for this are the Storm King's Thunder runes
Although i'm considering making this part of the subclasses instead
Probably some damage types would be repeated, like Necrotic for Blood and Death
Or i could add other effects, like idk, lifesteal on a weapon imbued with the Blood Rune
sounds like cleric 8th ahaha I think theyve repeated damage types
But then i'm worried that this might make things:
- complicated
- unbalanced
I always have at least 2 with the "simpler" effect and then 1 or 2 with a more complicated (but similarly balanced) effect
for witch for example, Cat and Raven got a simple conditional transform at 11th. Faerie instead got polymorph + extra forms for it, while Ooze simply learned to split (which is its way of multiplying its damage)
theres no harm with a purely simple effect for all though, but cleric's divine strikes was a little too simple, it basically was a glorified class feature lol
@shrewd rock sorry for pinging again:
I made an Offensive and a Defensive option for most runes, it's in the document, right below "Other Runes"
I'm kinda "ehhh" towards those, but i still wanted to know your opinion if possible
For the people who read the tab:
Do you guys prefer the initial passive effect of each rune, which gives smaller effects (Usually Adv on skill check, resistance against Condition, etc.) or the ones that affect equipment?
Pinging @dreamy anchor and @slender totem too
Well, affecting equipment is more flavorful, but Artificer already kinda does that...
2014 did
2024 now creates them instead
So it's not really the same
What used to be Infusions in 2014 are now magic items, so it's not that exclusive anymore
You could probably find them in a dungeon if the DM wants to
2024 Artificer is more about crafting than upgrading equipment
huh. I really need to read the new classes...
Thats not final yet right? I really hate that Arti just makes items now
Not yet
But i don't think it's gonna be that different on release
Im kinda hoping they go back to infusions really
And its still possible theyll do another UA or go back
I mean, it was supposed to be relased on August iirc, but it was delayed due to printing problems
So i don't think it's gonna change
It appeared in both the Artificer and the Eberron UA and it was almost the same thing
- the capstone was nerfed XD
Anyways, i still wanted to know your opinions 🥲
I still way prefer Arti infusions so I still see them as Arti's niche, though im not necessarily against pseudo infusions in other subs, for a full class it steps on that
Got it
It was kinda inspired by the Storm King's Thunder runes, where you have 2 choices of items to enchant
i like enchanting equipment thematically, and i also think its not a big enough feature to fear retreading artificer
artificer is about more than just enchanted items (though that is a major part of their fantasy)
i think the same could be true for you
plus it brings in a bit more gishiness, which i think may be desirable at this juncture
Artificer is only slightly more than enchanted items I think, even its subclasses are specially made enchanted items
Arti is like 70% enchanted items, 10% potions (and mostly just for alch), 10% tools and 10% guns
if they had expanded on improving infusions to work on already magical items to some degree, that would have probably made artificer a solid support class (albeit perhaps on the stronger side)
Since most numerical bonuses are on attunement items, I wouldve gone with "can add to magical items that don't require attunement. That item now requires attunement"
I'd say enchanted items is like
A small part of Battle Smith (using Int for weapon attacks, but even then it's too generic), a small part of Artillerist (using wands as "guns") and a big part of Armorer
And the Infusions
But tbf, i'm not really a fan of adding this feature anyways
It would be ok if it was just damage types, but some of the runes don't have damage types that fit, so i had to improvise effects for a lot of them
Some of them are small things (adding a mastery on top of another), but some are game changing
Examples:
- Cloud Rune makes attacked creatures not able to take Opportunity Attacks against you
- Shield Rune makes attacked creatures have Disadvantage when attacking creatures other than you
So yeah, not really as small as i wanted it to be
Maybe it could work on a martial, but this is a half-caster, so you'd have those on top of spells XD
I'll just add those as subclasses features instead
You can also just decide to tread on Artificer because it sucks lol
Wdym
Artificer is already an "optional" class, whatever the exact status. I think you can just make features that are similar to it and it'll be alright
I don't think i'll add this specific feature anyways due to this
Spellcarving is already very similar to Spell-Storing Item for example
If i do add a feature like this, it will be for the other version of the class (if i do continue it)
Decided to remove Carved Aspect 🫡
Ok, we have a problem:
Both Paladin's and Ranger's spells are either utility or something that takes a BA to activate
Due to how the Runesmith works, with 20 different spell lists, it's hard to choose thematic spells that will blend the martial side and the caster side perfectly, compared to something like Divine Smite or Hunter's Mark
that's why gishes generally include some kind of ability to do that
Well, I think you're not making a gish, so maybe it's not so important for you?
Also I don't think Hunter's Mark is such a perfect blend either
I am though
That makes sense
I meant like, it's the main "gishing" spell for the Ranger
Even then, the other spells for damage are (usually) also Bonus Actions, like Hail of Thorns
The ones that aren't, like Entangle or Pass Without Trace, are more for control or utility than damage
There are damage spells that are actions, like Conjure Barrage, but it's not all of them
Well, dunno really. I don't think you have to care about this, but if you do... Well, I guess you need to squeeze in a feature for Bonus Action casting? Weren't you trying to do that with the Vancian aspect?
I care about this really much, but that's because I'm explicitly making a very gishy gish
That's what i was thinking tbh
My main idea was to allow the inscribed spells be cast as a Bonus Action
But then, everyone would probably fill them with combat spells, so at level 17, you'd either have 5 weak ones or 1 really powerful one
Well, yes?
And then you'd have your whole half-caster spells which are kinda there
The main problem isn't the fact the spells are an Action or a Bonus Action
It's the fact most Paladin's and Ranger's spells are either:
1 - Utility
2 - A enhacement to the martial side*
3 - A concentration spell that you take an Action to cast and it lasts for 1 minute at least (Grasping Vine, for example)
-# *Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Swift Quiver
So they're more like martials that can cast spells
The Runesmith rn looks more like a caster* that can make weapon attacks
-# *Especifically a blaster one
Well, I guess that's because the flavor is centered about a specific method of casting, while Paladin and Ranger are martial-first flavorwise
Exactly
One solution would be to create new spells like Tamms said a while ago, but even if i do so for half of the them, that would be 50 new spells
Or do something that allows BA casting 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U29-XL3tif-M8ZRPLQXCgvUmVHHzF5jVAF9LcDXdGsk/edit?usp=sharing
Anyways, i've been working on this version too if you wanna take a look
Runesmith Core Traits Primary Ability: Intelligence Hit Point Die: D8 per Runesmith levelHit Points at Level 1: 8 + Con. modifierHit Points per additional Runesmith Level: D8 + your Con. modifier, or, 5 + your Con. modifier Saving Throw Proficiencies: Constitution, Intelligence Skill Proficien...
It's in an even more unfinished state
As if I wasn't already mixing up all the versions
LOL
There's only 2
The actual half-caster one and this one that is like "caster but not really"
I'm still thinking if i should make it use spell slots or another resource
Also #1411827721033613332
Nah, it would be less like "spell points" and more like Monk's Focus Points or Sorcerer's Sorcery Points
1 point per level, recharges on a SR/LR (not decided yet)
A rune scribe masters the secrets of the runes of power – ancient sigils that embody the fundamental magic of creation. Rune magic is exceedingly rare: some of its secrets have been lost, and what lore remains is jealously guarded. Few rune scribes share their lore with others. Indeed, most rune scribes take on new students only if doing so allows them to gain access to a forgotten or missing rune.
@echo scroll
That's the flavor text for the UA Rune Scribe