Aldori Swordlord - 5e Fighter Archetype (Feedback wanted)

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Hi! I posted this on Reddit but got no feedback, just a bunch of votes. I hope that might be different here.

Based on the Aldori Swordlord prestige class from the Pathfinder ttrpg. I do not play Pathfinder, so this is loosely based on it. I wanted to create this subclass because i'm planning on running the Kingmaker Adventure Path for my group and wanted a fitting lore subclass to go with that adventure in case players are interested in becoming an Aldori Swordlord or to use for NPC's.
I also intend to share this subclass so others that are interested or want to play Kingmaker in 5e as a Swordlord have the possibility to do so.
In that case I would want this subclass to be balanced reasonably well if others are going to potentially use it.
Personally I think it's decently balanced, and reasonably fun, but there are many more experienced DM's than me here so I might be wrong.

Feedback is highly appreciated!

The Aldori Swordlord document: https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/AqDtRUhyZ-fA
The Reddit post for those interested: https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/1dax6yl/aldori_swordlord_v10_the_pathfinder_kingmaker/#lightbox

Most recent changes:

• Aldori Swordlord version 2.0 -> 3.0
• Fixed wording for some features
• Corrected some typo's and grammar issues
• "Intimidating Duelist" - Removed the posibility to use DEX for intimidation rolls
• Did some roll tests with varying AC's and decided to keep the two fighting styles. The difference in fighting styles allows the PC to "adapt" to different enemies and in my eyest it does just that. Dueling is great against lower AC enemies or if you KNOW you'll hit, GWF is great against higher AC enemies.
• Replaced "Saving Slash" for "Fit to Rule" an out of combat ability
• Removed "Damaging Duelist" because it was way too strong. Replaced it with "Display of Power"

[lucid crest]

Aldori Dueling Sword pretty much becomes a 2h only sword tbh, though I guess it makes you open to holding a torch or grappling

[low scroll]

Hey, thanks for the reply! I see your point. I don't have any buffs/advantages for a PC that wants to use the sword with one hand. Got to look in to that a bit more, thanks!

aside from the advantage the dueling fighting style gives ofcourse which is not much considering 2-handing the sword would already give the PC about as much damage and allow to use the Great Weapon Fighting fighting style

[lucid crest]

Tbf yes, Dueling brings it up to a Great weapon on average

It actually has better average damage than two handing the sword

Though GWF will help, in general its considered to be a fairly meh fighting style

Still, this is a d10 dexterity weapon so thats pretty nice, although the wielder wont be able to draw out the full dex build due to the shield restriction

[lucid crest]

Aldori Fighting Style This may be better to just be a free "You gain the Great Weapon Fighting Style or Dueling Fighting Style" rather than enforcing both. I guess you're deliberately avoiding Defense, Interception or Protection?

Intimidating Duelist Prof in Intim, using Dex instead of Cha is fine but technically the DM can change ability scores for skill checks, so I dislike this feature on principle because it'd lead to arguments when the DM calls for an Intimidation (Strength) check or something, plus it feels strange to always be using Dex to intimidate when you may be, say, unable to move but able to talk

Defensive Strike I will say that this might be one too many features at 3rd, but the second is at least somewhat minor. "When an enemy... attempts to leave your reach" thats just normal opportunity attack haha. "You gain a +1 bonus to your AC... This bonus increases when you gain..." is probably better wording. This seems fine, basically a more reliable OA trigger with an AC bonus.

Shatter Confidence This is a totally fine time to summon up "Make a Dexterity (Intimidation) check". The frighten needs a duration, rearrange the wording for clarity. "On a successful check, the target is frightened by you until the start o your next turn, and is forced to spend its next turn moving as far away from you as possible or until it can no longer see you." Slightly better than Menacing Attack, but thats fine since its a whole subclass feature. Prof uses is not good since it encourages multiclass shenanigans but this is very deep anyway

Now is a great time to mention, seeing the 10th level be NOT an out of combat feature, that Fighters usually have an out of combat feature either at 7th or 10th. This is because the fighter would be entirely useless out of combat otherwise. This feature usually takes up the entire level.

This is the simplified Fighter structure, summarized from my full subclass guide https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qQdfmwgT2s4-ZF0xyQjSRAxmQks7dlzW48B67tkTef0/edit?usp=sharing

Fighter

Don't forget to give the fighter something to do outside fighting. Most uses regain on short rest
3rd - New Mechanic/System OR Simple Combat Improvement (Preferably something complex-ish)
7th - Out of Combat feature (Exploration, Social or Combat related, as long as it is done outside combat) + System Options (if it has options)
10th - System Improvement (increase damage die or number of uses) OR Defensive/Protective Feature (OR Out of Combat feature if none in 7th)
15th - System Reliability (regain uses early, trigger more often) OR Combat Utility (Synergy with 3rd level Mechanic/System)
18th - System Improvement (increase damage die) OR Defensive/Protective feature

[lucid crest]

Anyway, continuing on

Dextrous Duelist Disappointingly NOT an out of combat feature. I suggest replacing either this or 7th with one. Anyway, this could be worded differently, and my problem with this feature is mostly because we have about 3 on hit effects now. One is attached to OAs, one is a BA fear, then now a disadv on OAs. I think a player may get confused with so many riders. That said, this is a pretty good Protective feature, fitting a 10th level feature.

Saving Slash This is a little underwhelming. The problem here is that you only have one reaction, you always want to use it to make the Defensive Strike. You'll almost never use this, as crits are rare, and you probably won't have your reaction anyway cause you want to Defensive Strike.

Damaging Duelist This one is kinda insane. You always deal 90% OF YOUR DAMAGE. You miss out literally on just 2 damage or so. Also, what do you mean affects Sneak Attack??? I dont think this is a good feature, needs lower damage at least

[lucid crest]

If you mean Damaging Duelist can trigger Sneak and other features that trigger on hit, this definitely is broken. Literally never miss

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Thanks for the in-depth feedback, exactly what I was hoping for!

Aldori Fighting Style I had based this subclass on the Aldori Swordlord subclass from Pathfinder and in that class there was a importance to the fact wether the swordlord was wielding the weapon with either one or two hands.
The pathfinder subclass also had a feature called: Adaptive Tactics which was meant for changing fighting styles to adapt to the enemy, which is why I wanted to offer the PC the option of wielding the sword differently and thereby "adapting" by changing the Fighting Style.

But now that i'm reading it again, i'm thinking of maybe just making it the Dueling fighting style like you said, leaving the first Fighting Style you gain as a fighter up to the player. And yes, I was indeed deliberately avoiding the other Fighting Styles since (to me) they did not fit with the theme of the subclass.

Intimidating Duelist I wanted to keep it up to the player wether they want to use Dex or not, giving them free reign to still use Charisma, but I can understand how that might become more difficult if the DM asks for a strength intimidation. It is indeed also limited to the body language of the Swordlord. I might just need to word it like this: You gain proficiency in Intimidation and can CHOOSE TO use Dexterity instead of Charisma OR STRENGTH for its ability modifier. (without the CAPS ofcourse)

Defensive Strike It's indeed a normal opportunity attack but I felt it necessary to word it like that because the PC can also use it when they gets attacked. I have changed the wording for number to bonus, that is indeed better.

Shatter Confidence Thanks, that is indeed way better wording.

**10th level feature **I have to say, i had never realised that subclass structure. Thanks for the document, it will come in very handy!

Shatter Confidence & Dextrous Duelist This is my favourite feature of the subclass and i'd like to keep it so i'm gonna have to fiddle a way through this. Dropping either Shatter Confidence or Dextrous Duelist is going to be hard since (to me) they fit with the style Pathfinder gave to the subclass. I might drop Dextrous Duelist to 15th level, but as you said, it's a good 10th level feature.

Shatter confidence is a feature given to the swordlord at level 5 of its class and is to is meant to demoralize the enemy. To me the whole shtick of the Aldori Swordlord is being an intimidating wall of swords. But as i'm reading through it's pathfinder class features again, after your feedback, i noticed that every feature of that class is a combat feature. The entire class is just combat. So i now have to figure out how to incorporate a non-combat feature around 7-10th level.

Saving Slash Also based on the Pathfinder class, allowing it to negate a crit hit. But I realize it doubles up on the reaction spot, but while writing it I kept thinking, "Why not?" I thought it might add a tactical edge of "Should I negate this or should I go for the Defensive strike. But I realize this might not have been the best idea. I might drop this one and fill it it with the 7-10th level feature.

Damaging Duelist I'll be honest.....I effed that. I never DM'ed high level characters so I was out of my element with this one, but this, I realize now, is really bad.

Right now i'm thinking maybe buffing the damage done by the aldori dueling sword or the added damage of the Dueling Fighting Style. But that just feels underwhelming. Gotta go to the drawing board for this one.

But really, thanks for the in-depth feedback. Uploading this stuff to two different reddits and not getting a single comment of feedback is frustrating as hell. You really helped me out and i'll defenitely be reading your subclass structure document.

[lucid crest]

Im heading to bed rn but I will say for Intimidating Duelist, the problem is less "oh hey we need to mention both Cha and Str" the problem is more "well the DM can call a different stat depending on the situation." The DM can call for a Wisdom Intimidate, a Cha intimidate, a int intimidate, a str intimidate and so forth. While its nice to be able to use your best stat for it, you should be giving a reason as to how youre using Dex to intimidate people. This is fine for your feature Shatter Confidence, but outside it, how are you Dex intimidating someone while cuffed onto a table? Or in a battle of wits?

Proficiency in intimidation is enough I think

And Shatter Confidence asking for a Dexterity (Intimidation) is totally fine too, its part of your abilities after all

As for Saving Slash, its interesting to have a choice but negating a crit is so rare that 9 times out of 10 youre gonna retaliate the first hit and then unexpectedly get crit the second hit because you wont know if there will be a crit (or hey they might switch targets)

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Thanks! I'll get to work on it asap. You've been a big help!

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Changelog:
It's difficult to make huge changes to the subclass without destroying its identity or moving it too far from the Pathfinder class that its based on.
Hence the Subclass remains more combat focused since the Pathfinder version ONLY does combat abilities.

• Fixed wording for some features
• Corrected some typo's and grammar issues
• "Intimidating Duelist" - Removed the posibility to use DEX for intimidation rolls
• Did some roll tests with varying AC's and decided to keep the two fighting styles. The difference in fighting styles allows the PC to "adapt" to different enemies and in my eyest it does just that. Dueling is great against lower AC enemies or if you KNOW you'll hit, GWF is great against higher AC enemies.
• Replaced "Saving Slash" for "Fit to Rule" an out of combat ability
• Removed "Damaging Duelist" because it was way too strong. Replaced it with "Display of Power"

All in all, it should be more balanced now.
Here's the new "still in development" version:
https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/AqDtRUhyZ-fA

Feedback, once again, highly appreciated!

[lucid crest]

GWF isnt very good against high AC enemies: It lets you reroll your damage roll, not your attack roll. So in effect, Dueling ups your damage by a flat 2, while GWF ups your damage only if you roll a 1 or 2 on damage. You don't hit higher AC better.

Fit To Rule is great, if it was gotten earlier. At this point, it is way too late to get a skill, your casters have been manipulating everyone with Charms, or your Rogue has been investing everything into Charisma. This is essentially the tier where you are fighting archwizards and stuff, not really doing much convincing, since people should be very aware of you guys at this point. Usually you want something different and unique for out of combat things, though tbf Samurai does simply use one skill, it at least gets it at 7th so not too late.

Display of Power is worded a bit strangely. When a frightened creature attempts to leave your reach, of course you make an OA, thats standard ruling. You can just say "When you hit an opportunity attack against a creature frightened by your Shatter Confidence, it becomes a critical hit."

Intimidating Duelist, I actually want to propose an alternative. I know I'm the one that says not to use Dex for this, but actually, we could follow what Samurai does here. Samurai adds Wisdom to Persuasion checks, allowing them to be wise nobles that convince people through wit. We could instead say "You add your Dexterity modifier to any Intimidation checks you make". This would make it so you remove the Dex (Intimidate) on Shatter Confidence, but you still add Dex to it so it becomes pseudo expertise.

However, tbh, I still struggle to see how you can show being intimidating all the time with Dex, Wisdom makes sense since you are using a different style or reasoning.

In line with this proposal, I might actually suggest that this Fighter, again taking the exact same queues as Samurai, become proficient in Dexterity saving throws. While this isn't out of combat, it does help with such things, such as triggering traps or certain environmental hazards.

[lucid crest]

As for being combat focused, its totally fine. The only reason why a Fighter wants something noncombat is because it is literally completely useless outside combat. Something combat related but essentially out of combat done is fine too, Battle Master can "size up" a foe for example, which is done outside of combat but is something that relates more to fighting than not. (This is partially because the BM can also take out of combat maneuvers but thats beside the point). This can help the party plan and strategize around the info the BM gets, and allows the BM to do something outside of bashing things with a sword when the game is taking a break from it.

You need to account for the fact that pathfinder and dnd dont cleanly convert. Pathfinder is far crunchier and has its own ways of solving the martial caster disparity. The amount of skills you get, plus I bet pathfinder has some noncombat stuff in the "base" class for Fighter. Meawhile in 5e the Fighter gets quite literally nothing noncombat from their class, it is all FIGHT, which is their job anyway. This is why Mercer's Gunslinger is pretty bad, it tries to mimic the pathfinder version only to be caught in the web that is 5e just not having enough actions to make the gun jamming make sense.

Fighter can def have super combat focus, but it usually does so at the expense of having the fighter do something outside combat. Samurai at least has Elegant Courtier, the Wisdom saves can help vs charms that may happen outside combat. Arcane Archer gets hit by having no out of combat things at any level, except one cantrip at the start, which is something! And possibly using Seeking Arrow as a tracking thing at least.

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Oof, it seems I have been gaslit by chat GPT. I used it for wording and grammar and that mf just changed damage to chance to hit for the GWF and I accepted it like the nice little pleb I am, hail our future overlords. I did some calculations and now I am actually thinking that I rather have GWF like I thought it was instead of how it really is... But since that is no longer the case, it would have to change, but i'm reluctant to create a new Fighting Style as it feel a bit "outside the rules-y" Thanks for paying attention on that one, since I clearly did not.

I like the adding the DEX on top of the roll vibe. This subclass is never going to excel beyond social classes but at least is would get something decent. Maybe it will be a bit more down to how the player describes their actions to the DM. Since with Shatter Confidence the DEX use for Intimidation is logical as the enemy would see a highly intimidating display of swordskill. Kind of the same as when a player on my table chooses to use their physique (STR) to intimidate instead of threatening words.

Giving the Swordlord proficiency in DEX saves is also something that would fit really well with the theme of the Swordlord and I will incorporate it into the Subclass.

I really struggled thinking of an OOC ability at level 10, I was not going to do it at 7th because I felt Shatter Confidence was perfect for that spot. But I think I will have to exchange Dextrous Duelist and Fit to Rule but I feel Dextrous Duelist will be underpowered for a 15th level ability.

[lucid crest]

Yeah chatgpt lies lmao

Its very good at lying XD

Hmm I can see your hesitance to swap Dextrous Duelist and Fit to Rule, I think I am lacking any lore or context behind this subclass to formulate any good suggestion for an OOC feature

If youre able to shed some light I can see what I can come up with

Of course if youre going the Dex saves route, I suggest the 10th level be the Dex save + Fit to Rule (or some other OOC ability), and that should make this be a sufficient feature

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To be honest, there's not much more lore then what I wrote down in the subclass description. The Swordlords are a long line of student and master swordfighter that are prideful, prickly, hotheaded, honorable and obsessed with their personal standing. Their skill in duelling and swordfighting is almost unmatched and very intimidating and demoralizing. They use a specific sword, the Aldori Dueling Sword, which they have mastered. They are rulers but do not inherit through marriage or offspring, though in the Kingmaker (video game) storyline the Aldori Swordlord that serves as the main quest giver does have a son whom she trained to be an Aldori and is being groomed to rule.

That is most of the background lore on the Aldori Swordlord. They have 3 classes within Pathfinder. The Aldori Sworlord (which is a prestige class), the duelist and the Aldori Defender (which is more focused on defense). This subclas is kind of a mash-up of those three but is most closely related to the Swordlord, though I am interested in the disarm feature the Duelist gets.

I could maybe add a disarm ability to Dextrous Duelist. Or change Dextrous Duelist to a disarm ability fit for 15th level. I wouldn't even have to change the name. Guess I have to mull it over a bit more.

[lucid crest]

OK I did a quick look and I think I'm spot on: Fighters in Pathfinder are able to pick up "skill feats", which improve or add to ways to use certain skills. This allows a fighter to be a pseudo skill monkey, they can be good at certain skills. This allows all "sublasses" to be entirely dedicated to combat: they are "fighter feats". These feats are detached from one another, so they can pick up both such feats.

The problem is that 5e is not like that. Fighters have 0 out of combat things they can do, and picking up a feat is giving up an ASI, which the fighter would consider for offensive purposes and not out of combat roleplay most of the time. This means subclasses tend to give something to the Fighter to let them feel at least somewhat useful in OOC situations, otherwise the Fighter stands back a lot. Tbf to the 5e Fighter, 5e is a near pure combat and dungeon game so theyre not gonna miss out on much, but it still does feel somewhat bad.

[lucid crest]

Also, idk what ChatGPT thought GWF is, it might be unbalanced since any increases to attack bonus are very delicate, and Archery is kinda broken lmao

[lucid crest]

What I think I might do is this
3rd
Dueling Sword Prof - OK
Defensive Strike - OK
Aldori Fighting Style - Gain one of Dueling or Great Weapon Fighting (allow any base choice)
Aldori Training
You have studied various skills to become accepted into the Aldori school of swordlords. You gain proficiency in one of the following skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Intimidation, Insight, History.

7th
Shatter Confidence - Change to plain Charisma (Intimidation) check

10th
Aldori Finesse
Beginning at 10th level, with a quick flourish, you can easily present a show of skill that causes others to think twice about the danger you pose. You gain a bonus equal to your Dexterity modifier to any Intimidation checks you make.

Additionally, you gain proficiency in Dexterity saving throws. If you already have this proficiency, you instead gain proficiency in Intelligence or Charisma saving throws (your choice).

15th
Saving Slash
At 15th level, you become unnaturally quick to guard your weak points. When an attack scores a critical hit against you, you can turn that hit into a normal hit. Once you do so, you can't do so again until the start of your turn.

18th
Display of Power - Probably OK

though thats up to you if Dextrous Duelist is more important or not haha

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Thanks for your ideas! Your ideas really help! I'm going to stew on it a bit and hopefully I can work out a nice balance

[low scroll]

Hmm. I'm struggling. I feel the Swordlord is underpowered at low level. If the swordlord is using a Dueling Sword, then I indirectly debuff them for not allowing them shields. Sure they can use versatile on a DEX weapon but it's not the same damage a 2-handed weapon will deal if the PC was a STR Fighter. Also one-handing the dueling sword will deal the same damage as a rapier and if they use the DFS they can't use a shield which means they have to decide on either +2 damage or +2 AC.
I (if I was a player) would go for +2 AC, especially with Defensive Strike buffing me with an extra +1 AC, which means the Dueling Sword is not any different from the Rapier except for which type of damage it does, which make the Defensive Strike ability not sound like an "buff" ability so much as just a feature to fix a debuff.

I feel like I either need to drop the Fighting Styles for a different ability alltogether, or I need to drop the no-shield prerequisite.

Maybe I should make the Aldori Fighting Style an actual fighting style instead of grabbing two existing fighting styles

[lucid crest]

Yeah pretty muchthis, the more I look at the dueling sword the more I notice that its pretty much a debuff for either style of holding it, a two hander would want a bigger sword and a one hander would want a shield. The biggest benefit is that a Dex fighter can use a d10, but thats not too different from just Dueling sword and board (since they still cannot use GWM)

I will say this, I see a few art of such swordlords and they do hold a shield

So it doesnt seem like none of them hold a shield, some of them seem to

At least from the art I saw

[lucid crest]

This is a possibility but the problem is that no one has successfully made a satisfying and balanced Versatile FS yet haha

As far as I know at least

Also Dueling does allow you to hold a shield, its just the dueling sword thats holding it back

[low scroll]

Yes I noticed that too. While the swordlord NPC in the Kingmaker Adventure (where the Swordlord class comes from) does wield it one-handed without a shield, most other art depicting swordlords does not. I find this really contradictory for the lore. This while the class rules both for the video game and Pathfinder itself focus on either wielding the sword two-handed or one-handed without an offhand

For instance:

Deft Strike (Ex): An Aldori swordlord can add his Dexterity bonus (if any) to damage rolls made with an Aldori dueling sword instead of his Strength bonus. This bonus on damage rolls applies whether the swordlord is wielding an Aldori dueling sword one-handed or two-handed.** An Aldori swordlord cannot use this ability if he is wielding a shield or using an off-hand weapon** (including armor spikes, unarmed strikes, or natural weapons).

[low scroll]

Even the Aldori Defender, a more defensive focused class has this in its class description above its features:

The following benefits apply only when an Aldori defender is wielding an Aldori dueling sword (see page 24) and carrying nothing in his other hand. An Aldori defender fights with his sword wielded with both hands only in moments of desperation.

[lucid crest]

I would propose a Versatile FS but Ive tried before and couldn't really get it right lol

[low scroll]

currently i'm thinking in the ballpark of something like this:

The Aldori Swordlords practice a unique style of fighting that allows them to adapt to any enemy.
While using a versatile weapon and wielding it in one hand, your AC increases by +1.
When wielding the versatile weapon with two hands, you gain the ability to reroll attack rolls that land on a 1 or 2 and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2.

[lucid crest]

is that still enforcing the whole "no shield on offhand" thing?

[low scroll]

Currently, yes. But that feature is linked to the Weapon itself

[lucid crest]

I find myself wondering why they choose to wield the sword one or two handed to begin with, is there any benefit in PF?

why not choose one way of handling

Defender implies that two handing increases defense

[low scroll]

I think it's specific to their fighting style that is based on dueling and flashy combat

like an explosive fencer

i guess

[lucid crest]

yeah but mechanically is what im wondering, cause the defender says two handing is desperate, so it increases their survivability or something

well anyway

[lucid crest]

I think this can work, but not exactly balanced against the current FS. I was thinking more along the lines of making an Aldori FS that is open to all fighters, which frees up conceptual space at 3rd level (since now you offload the responsibility of picking the Aldori FS to the main class)

if youre thinking of it as just tied to the subclass then it probably works

[low scroll]

Yeah I kind of want to use it in the Subclass to really hit home the feel the Swordlord should give. The Aldori Dueling Sword is also integral to its identity but I didn't want to force a low level PC to immediately NEED to use it. So low level they can still use any DEX or versatile based weapon and as they gain levels, they need to pickup a Aldori Dueling Sword to be able to use their followup abilities.

[lucid crest]

I personally wouldnt force it even at higher levels, but I wouldnt worry much since the sword is a straight upgrade to the rapier

like its a d8 finesse weapon but with the option of two handing, even if you dont two hand you'll want it for the niche circumstances you can use it haha

Either way I wouldnt get rid of the dueling sword prof anyway

Just the FS is the main concern

(Another problem when using the dueling sword is to rationalize and explain why there are ancient magical dueling swords around before the Aldori were around lol)

[low scroll]

Yes, i think that's indeed a great advantage of the weapon. I also like that in 5e generally those limitations, like limiting a class to a weapon, is a no-go. However, with Pathfinder, especially 1e, that stuff is completely different, which I hate. But I felt the dueling sword was too integral to the class to drop.

And indeed. It's not easy to make Dueling Sword artifacts, which you could call a debuff to the weapon

[low scroll]

Changelog:
I feel like its close to finished. I'm happy with the result, its not going to blow anything out of the water but it's great for players that want a specific theme, a DEX based fighter or something that fits with Pathfinder or its Kingmaker Adventure Path. I think I did the original class justice and kept the things that made the Swordlord a Swordlord intact. I'm going to give it one last look-over and then I might consider it finished. Otherwise, maybe I'll return to it one day to beef it up.

• Changed from V3.0 to V4.0
• Wording and spelling fixes
• Overhauled Aldori Fighting Style
• Increased price of Aldori Dueling Sword from 25 to 30gp
• Edited Credits

https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/AqDtRUhyZ-fA

[lucid crest]

Nice cover art