unless....
#Project Horizon (5e rebuild)
frank python
Anyway, you get the idea, you can have some fun with it
dawn robin
I'll consider a third feature on races we shall see
frank python
Do consider focus features too. Like, I can pronounce worcestershire as many times as needed, just need to slow down my sword-swining while doing it
dawn robin
thought
what if focus features were like, pokemon "delayed turn move" things
aka, spend turn 1 readying, turn 2 execute
out of combat, easy enough to do as you have plenty of time
mid combat, its an investment
frank python
Well that doesn't really work on senses and such. And I think the prevailing opinion is that such features were widely unpopular. Now, you could make some for sure, but I wouldn't make it some big systemic thing
frank python
I'd specifically say something like "Staying Focused for prolonged periods is tiring. Your DM may limit excessive usage of features invoking this condition.". So that you can't just say "I keep it on"
dawn robin
"every round after the first you keep it on you gotta con save or take exhaustion"
frank python
Eh, I wouldn't. Like, you should be able to keep it up for an entire combat. But for example you can't walk the entire dungeon with it on, you can only stop at corners to use it. This sort of thing. Yes, it's a bit loose, but I think that's the best way to make it work
dawn robin
so, along the conc line of thinking what if
you can spend 1 minute to activate this feature, it stays active until you take any damage
frank python
That's an interesting option to keep in mind. I think it's less universal though, so I wouldn't make a whole condition out of it, just apply it on a case-by-case basis
I specifically meant for Focused to be usable in combat, but at a cost. This kinda just ends with the start of combat, usually
dawn robin
an easy cost would just be to make it take an action to activate
like, full Main action
frank python
I guess it's not bad, but we all know that utility features have a tendency to be too situational
That's probably too steep. And I think for most features you don't want to allow just keeping them on outside of combat
For example this tremorsense here would totally negate most ambushes
dawn robin
well, 30 ft isn't that big, most ambushes would have a ranged attacker start
frank python
The feature is 60
frank python
...yes, but we're brainstorming ways to remove said limitation 
dawn robin
also, I run tremorsense as basically discount blindsight. AKA, you don't auto-detect creatures
frank python
I feel like it should be 15 feet base, 60 is Focused
dawn robin
if they hide better than your passive, you don't see em
frank python
Well, I guess. Still, the whole point is that we don't want permanently on features
dawn robin
I think the way I did dwarf is ok, in that they have "default always on 30", but can push it for better if they need it
which might actually be too niche?
I can't think of too many situations where u want 60 ft over 30
frank python
Yes, but I still think that taking Focused is a way better option for "pushing it" than limited uses
frank python
I can't think of too many situations where u want 60 ft over 30
Well that's why I said 15 for base
dawn robin
ya know, now I wanna rewrite the feature
like not make it use Focused but like, totally replace it
frank python
Speaking of which, I was actually thinking with a sort of "passive cantrips" idea. You have people saying "I cast Guidance every minute!", right? What if cantrips had designated passive effects that'd take care of it in a balanced way? So like, Guidance giving a +1 to unexpected checks for the whole party, Virtue granting some passive Temp HP and so on
frank python
like not make it use Focused but like, totally replace it
Well, I wouldn't be against. It does make sense, but for some reason it's not a classic Dwarven feature
frank python
Oh. Still, limited uses, and on a Long Rest...
by the way limiting it to stone can be a good balancing option too
dawn robin
maybe, tho I do want more racial features to be generally good
tremorsense is already limited in that you only gain the sense through the surface you are touching
so if like, you are touching rock but they are on a different rock, you don't see em
frank python
True. I suppose it's not that OP even if it wasn't as limited
dawn robin
it also isn't actual sight, unlike blindsight
aka, you can't target invis creatures with spells via tremorsense
frank python
huh, weird
dawn robin
ye, tremorsense is actually worse than blindsight lol
only benefit is xray vision through cover
thats why I gave em 30 foot at base, unlike dragonborn with 10 foot blindsight base
frank python
I feel like it kinda shouldn't? It's a bit weak like that. Like, it shouldn't be all that distinct from Blindsight, except for the myriad ways to avoid it
dawn robin
ye, be
- incorporeal
- on a different rock
- flying
to avoid it
and if you are a caster, sucks to be you
frank python
so I would make it be blindsight tbh
dawn robin
but it can be good, its good for like, checking a room before you enter it, sensing most invisible enemies locations, etc
frank python
Also, you could let the Dwarven version detect tunnels and rooms as a bonus (perhaps only in the focused state)
frank python
kinda, yeah. Though maybe keep this part to 15 feet or so
frank python
Well, it's not full echolocation, but almost
dawn robin
what if it was?
frank python
Dunno. Feels like straying from the flavor. Tremorsense+darkvision are enough
dawn robin
bat dwarf do be funny tho
frank python
Like, we're remaking 5e, let's stick to 5e tropes
dawn robin
a lotta cave dwellers have echolocation, right? Not just bats I'm sure
(I don't actually know if thats true)
frank python
Yes, but tropes > logic
Well, unless you wanna remake the entire thing to be more biorealistic, I suppose. But I have a feeling that you don't
dawn robin
could be like that tho
not tremorsense as in "you sense movement" but like, you make a vibration and can sense everything around you
echolocation but through rock
that way you can sense things that don't move, like objects
frank python
...so tremorsense
dawn robin
tremorsense only senses tremors from others, this would mean you can sense everything
frank python
Well, fair. And yes, that's literally what I suggested
dawn robin
ye, I was trying to get a visual for it
frank python
I really want something like that but for wind patterns, it'd feel so cool
dawn robin
slap that on the air genasi
frank python
Gives more justification to requiring Focused too, as you gotta keep stomping
Was thinking more like some sort of Monk ability. And really, go stand in some wind, close your eyes, and imagine you can do it. Obviously you can't, but it's easy to pretend
dawn robin
I could see it
or druid
the whole "one with nature" thingy
So I might keep it as tremorsense but just, rework how tremorsense works
so its not a useless sense that sounds like it should be powerful
frank python
Honestly, you should just define sight. All of these senses let you see, though there are limitations
So there isn't a difference in terms of spell targeting or whatnot. Only in what can you do to hide. For tremorsense, the list is pretty long anyway - even stepping very carefully should at least grant advantage
Only Dwarves should see rooms like that though, for others it's just moving stuff
Anyway, gotta go to sleep
dawn robin
Is that sufficient?
with this line added to the "types of senses" paragraph
A creature detected by any of these senses is considered "seen" for the purpose of features that require you see the target, such as most spells.
dawn robin
First sample of some subrace features as well as a lore blurb for it, starting with the dragon boi themselves
dawn robin
Was wording on the dwarf, wanted to make the subraces based on depth and that felt more dwarvish-y (and roughly keeps with current dwarves, hill/mountain/duregar). Couldn't think of anything for the surface dweller tho...
anything I thought of either was too small (like +5 movement) or too... not biological (like appraising things well or something)
or its just not dwarf pilled enough
Gonna ask #brew_14 message
frank python
Isn't Cover more for hard stuff than visual stuff? You can have both fog (obscurs vision, doesn't block projectiles) and glass (blocks projectiles, no effect on vision)
I feel like you might've gotten a little too specific about the sight distances. The sentence about disadvantage is a little awkward. Should probably be more like "can confer disadvantage". And specify that the table is more of a rough approximation than some hard rule
I feel like Blindsight could use some examples, such as "Echolocation-based Blindsight will generally be able to detect most corporeal things, while smell-based will typically be limited to creatures"
Darkvision refers to some dim light rule that's not here
What does the star symbol do?
dawn robin
Darkvision refers to some dim light rule that's not here
the dim light distance is in the table actually, at least that's what I meant to have it reference
frank python
I guess Lifesense should be weird about Constructs and Undead
dawn robin
What does the star symbol do?
means the feature is inherently magical, and thus things that might disable magic (antimagic) or other things can interact with it
frank python
the dim light distance is in the table actually, at least that's what I meant to...
Uh, I wouldn't do that. Most of the table is just a suggestion, while this seems like more of a hard rule
And I feel like you shouldn't mix actual obstructions with darkness either
dawn robin
dim light distance (and darkness) should be a hard rule, if nothing else surely?
that's something that comes up a lot
frank python
Yeah, I'd say so
While you're at it, you should probably separate the typical "darkness" and true darkness. Darkvision is just good sight with little light, but it needs some light. It'd make it less of a necessity too
dawn robin
complete darkness sorta thing?
frank python
Yeah
You kinda have the wording backwards too. It should be "Darkvision doesn't pierce magical darkness, unless a feature explicitly states that"
Tremorsense seems a little oddly written. Should it even work through actual walls when you're not a Dwarf?
dawn robin
ye, most tremorsense monsters are burrowers after all
they sense prey on the surface through solid materials
frank python
Yeah, but it's still the same part of material... Dunno. I feel like it'd need to a bit more clear and specific, but it's fine for now
As for the races: The Chromatic thing is weird, not only 1/LR, but also kinda doesn't make much sense flavorwise. You could literally make it +1 AC though, that should be roughly balanced at Talent level
As for the lore blurb... I think it'd make sense to keep the "useful" stuff here, like color tables or suggested ability scores, then put the lore into another place, because this is way too little lore
dawn robin
I mean, this is just the little bits of lore, not the full wiki
the stuff I want a player to know when making a PC
scale color and desire are both great jumping points imo
frank python
For Dwarves... Stubborn Friend seems a bit too situational. If you only have three abilities in total, you should make them count.
dawn robin
What might I do to improve it? I like the idea of weaponizing their stubborn nature, as that does feel very dwarfy
frank python
And while I can accept tremorsense, stealth doesn't fit the tropes at all. Give them more resistancey stuff like Fort save bonuses, or just a +1 to AC, or resistance to Fire and smith's tools
dawn robin
Stone dwarves become a little stone themselves was the idea
frank python
I guess something against Exhaustion could be part of it, depending on how often you intend to use that. I do agree that adding more stubbornness is neat, though that's already kinda in the hit points
frank python
Stone dwarves become a little stone themselves was the idea
I know, but that's absolutely not how the tropes go
dawn robin
it doesn't all have to marry the tropes tbf
an ambush dwarf does kinda fit
just sits there waiting for prey then jumps out
frank python
Eh, no
That honestly sounds worse for compatibility than a change to ability scores
dawn robin
huh?
dwarves lying in wait in corners of a cave is a trope I've seen a few times in modules
the number of times dwarves got wiped out when mining because something came around to get em is so many, making cave dwarves better at survival makes sense to me
frank python
Survival yeah, but that's kinda why I liked the "stonesense" thing. I'd rather expand on that, it's more on-brand and still usable for ambushes if that's what you need
dawn robin
first thing in my mind was "meld into stone" spell lol
would combo great with tremorsense tbf
frank python
Dwarves don't become stone though. They're masters of it, but they don't just turn into it
dawn robin
hmm, thinking organically, what would the dwarven gods bestow upon their children that delve through the myriad of caves in the world....
frank python
Well definitely not Meld, because that'd kill the whole concept of making great halls of stone and such
dawn robin
with how many stories do exist of dwarven mines getting wiped out/taken over, I do feel like something about survival/resilience against such situations could be neat
frank python
well, that's what the sense guards against
dawn robin
would giving them goliath stone's endurance be a bad idea?
limited uses per long rest tho, which isn't great
frank python
Short
dawn robin
alternatively: You cannot be surprised
frank python
I was thinking about it actually, but I like Goliaths too much to allow that
frank python
alternatively: You cannot be surprised
nah, they're a slow race
dawn robin
slow to move yes, but always watching their backs
frank python
eh
frank python
eh
dawn robin
a bit too minor/niche, but fitting
frank python
not really tbh, they're not climbers
frank python
Sure, but they solve it by industrializing, not by relying on their own skills. They're too heavy for climbing
frank python
and what would that do mechanically?
I guess you could give them a slow climb speed in the hardware section, but dunno
dawn robin
count as two people when making a structure or thing I guess, though that aspect of the game would need to be more developed
frank python
yeah, way too niche
So far the focusable Tremorsense seemed best (and you can add stuff like "you don't get lost in caverns"), and then the subraces could be different forms of resilience (DR, AC, fire resistance, Fort saves...)
dawn robin
GPT's attempts, none of them particularly interested me but they can be referenced
frank python
Alternatively Fort saves in base (or something more specific, like exhaustion and mind control)
dawn robin
hm, was going to have Surface dwarves have a fort thing, would need to rework that if so
frank python
Surface is a weird race anyway. Make it the Smithy one instead
dawn robin
I like it, purely because it means I don't have to worry about "I was a dwarf raised by non-dwarves but I still have their teachings for some reason"
frank python
Yeah, but now you can't give proficiencies and stuff. Either way, naming can be figured out, and Fire resistance seems fitting and balanced. Maybe alongside "can see through smoke" or something
frank python
Or explicitly "can handle hot objects"
Yeah, it was. At best it'd kinda make sense for a "can march for way longer" feature, but that doesn't make much mechanical sense, you have a party with you anyway
dawn robin
Volcanic. :: You gain resistance to fire damage and take no fire damage from hot objects. Additionally, light fog or rain does not impair your vision.
though if I do this, there's a theme here
frank python
Uh, smoke. Not rain
dawn robin
each of the subraces (other than cave) have a resistance on top of the base poison resist from the race
maybe cave should gain a resistance?
dawn robin
Uh, smoke. Not rain
just wanted to make it more generic, basically saying "light obscurements don't obscure for you"
frank python
That's an option... I guess cave could have BPS DR?
frank python
just wanted to make it more generic, basically saying "light obscurements don't ...
Well, I guess, but then say so, and give smoke as an example
Though I feel like a resistance is strong enough, I'm fine with it being smoke only
dawn robin
Additionally, light fog and smoke does not impair your vision.
frank python
"Natural smoke and similar vapors don't impair your vision or breathing"
dawn robin
Additionally, natural light obscurements such as fog and smoke do not limit your vision or breathing.
frank python
If you're fine with the power level of that, yeah
Btw Heat Metal immunity is probably the nicest situational ability there could be
dawn robin
yup, I was thinking of that when I wrote it lol
dawn robin
well, I just made it "fire damage from objects", tho hopefully that doesn't include flame tongue
rough kite
volcano seems like a niche terrain for a dwarf to live in though right?
dawn robin
could also include natural thermal vents and the likes
frank python
Eh, dig deep enough and there's lava there
dawn robin
and dwarves do like rooming in volcanos in lore, ez forges
frank python
I guess Cave could get the improved Tremorsense too
Besides, if those are biological and not cultural, Volcanic is simply a subrace name, doesn't mean they actually live next to any sort of lava
dawn robin
Your tremorsense improves to Tremorsense (60). When you take the Search action to find a hidden creature, you automatically detect any creature within your Tremorsense range that has a Stealth lower than your result.
for Cave
can likely be simplified but that's my first shot
frank python
That's an option. I still like the Focused option though. And you'd probably need to reduce the base to 15, as this wouldn't be enough of an improvement
dawn robin
stealth detection in a 60 foot range is pretty good though isn't it?
I can reduce base to 20, 15 might be too low compared to other senses
I also made Search a bit more combat usable
frank python
Well, I guess it works then
rough kite
buffed search is dope
frank python
oh btw I feel like Dragonborn abilities shouldn't count as magical. The breath is just chemical in nature, no?
dawn robin
So, for true dragons, ye, but I feel like its harder to justify them on the little medium sized guys
ah I just realized we never got around to buffing the Stubborn Friend perk
dang
Current ver
dawn robin
Wait what if
eh maybe too martial focused but
if an ally within 5 feet takes damage, you can use your reaction to swap places with it
frank python
nah, they're not a fast race
also definitely too martial-focused
I guess Stubbornness should just be "saves against exhaustion and mind control, and any saves caused by prolonged effort or exposure"
frank python
Well, I guess. It was still kidna weird though. Give them something at least a little evil
I guess these guys could potentially be stealthier a little
dawn robin
well, old "deep" dwarf got a 3/5 spellcasting trait and sunlight sensitivity
frank python
yeah, but that's lame
dawn robin
correct
frank python
could be improved darkvision (i.e. works in true darkness)
dawn robin
magical darkvision? Could work, but very niche
frank python
well, the resistance takes most of the power budget
dawn robin
eh, compared to fire and poison damage resistance, psychic is way lower power budget
frank python
resistance + stealth in rocky terrain? Easiest option
dawn robin
So, basically what I had for old Cave dwarf?
frank python
I guess. Though without the motionless part. And you could consider other options that terrain type (e.g. underground, or in darkess)
dawn robin
Deep. :: You gain resistance to psychic damage and have advantage on Stealth checks made to hide in rocky environments. Additionally, you have Darkvision (60).
frank python
I'd add a qualifier to "darkness" or change to something like "gloom" or "murk". Also 30 feet is too much, should be like 5 without disadvantage and 5 with. Also I'd give examples of when they happen (e.g. to clarify that caves are typically just murk, not total darkness)
dawn robin
I'm wondering how I'll handle flying races with this...
restive idol
Also light levels added
add blinding light (inverse DV)
as to flying creatures, It's sorta... I did a thing going into the weeds with this let me see if I can find it before I get distracted and go to bed
dawn robin
Ye, blinding light vision would be funny to add to some races like aasimar
I also wonder how ill handle the non SRD races
I can add my own races at least
restive idol
restive idol
I'm wondering how I'll handle flying races with this...
right in the weeds.
dawn robin
I more meant for the racial template thing than sight, but ye that too
restive idol
fair nuff
dawn robin
Tho I already have a soft rule for max distance
restive idol
I am not coherent enough for going over race stuff, specially for an adjacent system xD
dawn robin
Same, too late
dawn robin
nvm decided to update the sight list
oak talon
I think these are good changes
my main issue with a lot of the senses in 5e was that its unclear if you can see behind full cover or not
dawn robin
Next wave of races now have their prototype subrace features
tiefling and orc are going to be hard, because tiefling subs in 5e are all spell-stuff (or flight), and orcs don't have subs
dawn robin
First shot at orc
rough kite
no fey elf huh?
dawn robin
no fey elf huh?
They are all fey now!
rough kite
but my eladrin 😤
dawn robin
They will be a hard one to add, yes
rough kite
undying and primal orc make sense from a biological perspective
what is endless turmoil supposed to represent?
dawn robin
So, all three are meant to embody a sorta "battle" lifestyle of an orc, primal being the charger, undying being the "all in" sorta thing, and the turmoil the endurance fighter
not solid on the name for the turmoil one tho
rough kite
if you’re sticking to biological and not cultural, how do those tribes differ physically to get to that point?
dawn robin
orcs often conquer and pillage, battle is their lifestyle for so long that its become a part of them. Some survived due to rapid and sudden strikes, others because nobody could take them down, and others due to clever/long term campaigns
their god likely granted them these gifts to enhance their ability to fight
"Enduring" might be a good name for it actually
rough kite
enduring makes sense yeah
dawn robin
Tiefling is still breaking me...
as all the OG subraces are spell stuff
and I'm trying to avoid any spells on races
Ok so, tieflings are typically framed as devils specifically. Every other subrace set I've made thus far has been in sets of three. What if... I have a devil/demon/yugoloth subrace?
I think that's good but I still need features for each...
fiendish, demonic, and yugoslavian or whatever you'd call the other one ||joke||
bruh they have a star wars reference in the wiki for 'loths
rough kite
how would you feel about combining aasimar and tieflings?
dawn robin
Too different imo
if every "half humanoid half extraplanar" race was combined, we'd have very few races
dawn robin
God, I've been trying to think of this for the past hour and I'm still almost at a blank
the only good idea I've had so far was to make all the subrace features an extension of their Empowered Form, but with EF only being a 1/LR feature that seems kinda lame
rough kite
where is the tiefling you have so far?
dawn robin
This is what I have so far
rough kite
demonic could trigger the empowered form at a certain life total for free? or under a different condition?
dawn robin
Hmm, maybe
demons are annoying because their whole thing is chaotic evil, they simply don't use the same tactic twice and they don't share much in common with one another
raw power might not be a bad idea
Back to a yesterday task, how might I improve this dwarven main feature to be more generally useful?
Stubborn Ally. :: You have resistance to the Charmed and Frightened condition. Additionally, you cannot be magically compelled to harm an ally, nor can magic force you to reveal secrets.
rough kite
these all seem relatively equal and thematic!
rough kite
Back to a yesterday task, how might I improve this dwarven main feature to be mo...
you could take stubborn a little farther and give resistance to being moved against your will?
rough kite
charmed, frightened, poison, and movement resistances add up to quite a bit of power altogether
you’re sticking in that spot
frank python
I'm wondering how I'll handle flying races with this...
well, a solid idea could be to just... not 
rough kite
maybe allies have advantage on death saves near you, or vice versa?
too stubborn to let your buddy die
dawn robin
that does have a ring to it, but also only works if your team is dying which is a spot you hopefully avoid in the first place
What if it was like... a generic reroll?
like, you are too stubborn to fail
sorta like the hobgoblin thing
frank python
saves against exhaustion and mind control, and any saves caused by prolonged effort or exposure
dawn robin
Hob feature
Saving Face. Hobgoblins are careful not to show weakness in front of their allies, for fear of losing status. If you miss with an attack roll or fail an ability check or a saving throw, you can gain a bonus to the roll equal to the number of allies you can see within 30 feet of you (maximum bonus of +5). Once you use this trait, you can't use it again until you finish a short or long rest.
rough kite
I worry that gets too universally strong
dawn robin
Yah, a lucky-like thing could do something
maybe like, the lucky feat rather than halfling lucky sorta thing?
maybe
frank python
Eh, dunno
Like, you could just have reflavored Lucky, there's no rule against repeating abilities
rough kite
that seems more vain than stubborn
dawn robin
Like, you *could* just have reflavored Lucky, there's no rule against repeating ...
if I have to repeat a feature after cutting more than half the features out, I'm doing something wrong
frank python
Nah, it just means you have a decent amount of races
I guess you could make it Offensive Lucky, forcing enemies to reroll 20s
dawn robin
heh, I actually made that one of the halfling subraces
frank python
Does that really fit though?
dawn robin
based off the halfling feat
frank python
I think it's better here imo
dawn robin
eh, dwarvish stubborn isn't "turning a hit to a miss", its more "I don't care that you hit"
closer to stone's endurance than lucky
what if they could half the damage of any attack they wanted, 1/LR(or SR)?
frank python
...wait aren't we doing Hobgoblin?
frank python
> saves against exhaustion and mind control, and any saves caused by prolonged e...
for Dwarf, I'll just keep recommending this
worded better of course
dawn robin
and no, hob was only mentioned because one of their features seemed similar to what I was going for
still on dwarf
dawn robin
> saves against exhaustion and mind control, and any saves caused by prolonged e...
the issue is... how often does any of that come up in a normal campaign?
exhaustion is quite rare, mind control too, and "prolonged exposure" is typically a non-issue
frank python
Well, mind control is a solid start, depending on how exactly you define it. Should probably encompass Charmed and Frightened
dawn robin
well, then we are back to what it is now
Stubborn.You have resistance to the Charmed and Frightened condition. Additionally, you cannot be magically compelled to harm an ally, nor can magic force you to reveal secrets.
its all a circle
rough kite
I don’t think every racial should have to be good all the time right?
you’ve already got some strong stuff on the race
frank python
Well it skips the important part of walking long distances and such
dawn robin
no, but they should be somewhat useful in most campaigns
frank python
It's rare, but it's an important part of the flavor
dawn robin
at low level, charm/frighten is pretty rare
frank python
and if by "prolonged" we mean "at least a minute", it should come up sometimes
frank python
I feel like the current one is too magic-inclined
dawn robin
hmm, perhaps, though their other feature is very martial-inclined so it matches
frank python
I don't really like the "harm an ally" part, I'd rather make it a generic resistance to mind control
Well, Dwarves kinda are martial-inclined, but this is usable on both regardless
frank python
> saves against exhaustion and mind control, and any saves caused by prolonged e...
I stick to my idea
dawn robin
I think that idea is too niche still
frank python
As long as mind control includes Charm and Frightened, it's strong enough
dawn robin
like, its good, but super niche
considering dwarf only gets 2 features and a subrace, both features need to matter more
frank python
Alternatively you could just do a Will and Fort bonus
dawn robin
Actually, not terrible idea, and gives me an idea
atm I plan to have saves be "player picks one for full prof, other two get half prof", I could let dwarf basically get jack-of-all-trades there, +1 any half-prof save
at low levels its basically prof in all, but wanes off at higher levels
maybe too good?
frank python
Well, I'd limit it to Will and Fort if only for flavor reasons, but otherwise it's not a horrible idea for sure
dawn robin
so +2 +1 +1 is standard, they'd get +2 +2 +2, then +3 +2 +2, then +4 +3 +3, etc
tho that somewhat undermines stuff like Monk getting all the saves
frank python
Yeah, I'd just do a flat bonus or limited reroll
dawn robin
I did buff indominable to become auto-success on fighter, so making dwarf have the "old" indominable could work
frank python
Potentially, yeah. And just make it 1/SR but only used up if you succeed
I'd prefer something more passive if possible though, so maybe reroll 1 and 2 on Fort and Will? Might need to expand the range to match Lucky
Could be Reliable Talent on these, but dunno
dawn robin
Stubborn (1/SR). :: Once a turn you can reroll a saving throw that you fail. If you do so, you must use the new roll. You do not expend a use of this feature if this reroll does not turn the Saving Throw into a success.
frank python
Weird wording, but not a bad idea. But do limit it to Will and Fort
dawn robin
Stole wording (at least first half) from indom, unsure on second half
I mean, stubborn reflex can work, saves some wording too
less dwarvish sure, but adventurers are all shapes and sizes
frank python
I'd go for "If this causes you to succeed, you must finish a short rest before using this feature again". It removes the convenient marker at the front, but that's kinda the point. Makes it feel more natural
Eh, no. Those are racial features, they should stick to the theme. It's pretty strong anyway
dawn robin
You regain use of this feature if the new roll also fails.
frank python
I mean, yeah, you probably do want to keep the convenient marker...
dawn robin
helps immediately note which features are limited use
Stubborn (1/SR). :: Once a turn you can reroll a Fortitude or Will save that you fail. If you do so, you must use the new roll. You regain use of this feature if the new roll also fails.
frank python
Yeah. Though it's kinda something we'd rather sweep under the rug. But I guess convenience wins
Though I'd rather go for "This feature is only expended if the new roll causes you to succeed"
dawn robin
First page of races "done", lore added and such
frank python
I feel like the lore is a little inconsistent. Why does it only talk about a single subrace of Dwarves?
dawn robin
Would've been more fitting if I kept to the original theme of "surface/cave/deep"
can't think of a great tie in now, but I felt that the other two are easily explained
frank python
If you want minimalist lore paragraphs here, limit them to "useful" stuff - appearance, reasons for adventuring, this kind of stuff
And put the actual lore somewhere else where it doesn't need to squeeze
dawn robin
what other note do you think I should add? Just an "appearance" style description of all three?
sorta like how dragonborn has a "adventurer draw + looks" pair
frank python
I'm not sure really. Maybe just ignore lore altogether and only have appearance and other relevant tables
dawn robin
I think that could be a good pair to have, its the main things a player would need
frank python
I'd still include ability scores for NPCs
dawn robin
"what does X race look like, why would X race be me"
frank python
Yeah, that's fair too
dawn robin
I'd still include ability scores for NPCs
huh?
was that a delayed message from a much older convo?
frank python
No. ASIs are a convenient piece of info about a race
And while it's not really relevant for players, it does make for a bit of a suggestion, and helps the DM modify generic statblocks
dawn robin
I'll try to make that narratively apparant in the descriptions
frank python
Eh, I'd just list it in a hardware section
dawn robin
Rock and Stone. :: Dwarves are short and hardy folk with resilient wide frames. Both sexes of Dwarves often sport immaculate facial hair as well. Their ancestry also alters their appearance, with the Cave Dwarf appearing the most humanoid, Deep dwarves having a more pale appearance, and Volcanic dwarves having red hair and a smoky breath.
frank python
Smoky breath is going a little far, I feel. Don't make stuff magical that doesn't need to
dawn robin
I'm putting racial ASI into the rules for generating a PC's stats in the first place, no reason to add a new column to each race when players will ignore it
frank python
Also at some point I was actually gonna suggest making them pale to throw off the people who cry "racist"
frank python
I'm putting racial ASI into the rules for generating a PC's stats in the first p...
The DM needs it
dawn robin
Smoky breath is going a little far, I feel. Don't make stuff magical that doesn'...
who said its magical? This guy can swallow lava and be ok (though might have indigestion)
dawn robin
The DM needs it
Then I'll make sure the dwarf NPC's have good stats for the relevant ones :P
frank python
And how are you doing racial ASIs then?
frank python
Then I'll make sure the dwarf NPC's have good stats for the relevant ones :P
...what about all the generic soldiers and guards and commoners though?
dawn robin
Mostly by not doing it, its just part of character creation alongside the "roll for stats" and "point buy"
frank python
Well, that's good. But that's why I'd add it to the racial blocks
dawn robin
...what about all the generic soldiers and guards and commoners though?
well, 5e solved that by: Not caring and just making one generic guard/commoner stat block :P
I will prob make a small set of "common NPCs" for all races where I can
frank python
With how you simplified and hopefully balanced those, modifying generic NPCs could actually be feasible. There aren't too many features
Alternatively you could make a "how to make NPCs of this race" block in some DM-facing resource, possibly modifying or just trimming abilities
dawn robin
though tbf, compared to commoner's being all 10's (which is very good compared to irl commoners), guards just having higher physical stats, mages having higher mental stats, any head start granted by "racial ASI" can easily just be explained as:
Yah we got dwarf and human guards, they both have the same stats, just most dwarf guards are younger than human ones because they train faster
like yah you started with 12 STR instead of 10, but the guard has 13 so, both of you had to train
most guards don't need to make many ability checks, so extra stats don't do as much
the only thing that I can really think of that would differ them is if I gave NPC's the player race features
like, dwarf guard has more HP and has a 1 use save bonus
frank python
Yeah, features sound like a good idea
dawn robin
though at the same time, I don't like guards with like, "Player Levels"
racial features almost feel like they should be treated the same, its a PC only thing, NPC's get like, little baby versions
frank python
They should absolutely get streamlined versions, but you mostly streamlined them already
They can also be stronger, though I'm not sure how it'd feel for the players. It makes sense for NPCs, because they're not gonna be relevant for long enough. And then you can just skip tracking uses or something
dawn robin
I guess, tho depends on the NPC
like if its the Dwarven Blood Lord, ye they are gonna have hella HP and amazing saves
But if its Dwarven Orchard Farmer, they can just have all 10's and nothing else
frank python
Dunno. I think it makes sense for the farmer to have much the same abilities (though they can mean more or less depending on other stats, of course). Makes the world more colorful
dawn robin
Maybe, but if Joe Orchard Dwarvenson ever was forced to make a saving throw in the first place, I think they would spontaneously combust
like, commoner boi doesn't fight, and if they do, they die
a guard? Maybe, tho that 11 hp isn't going to get you many places
elite guard? Ok now we can start talking
frank python
Well, sure. But then they might as well have it, no?
dawn robin
The 20 lines per stat block in the Monster Manual would like to talk
frank python
Obviously the DM can skip adding it, but I think it'd be neat to have a section like that
dawn robin
I see no reason to add combat features to anything that doesn't survive a single round in combat, unless its built to be an enemy for the players to murder
frank python
You're not
It's literally once per race
If the DM doesn't intend to have someone fight, they won't be making a stat block in the first place
dawn robin
Are you suggesting adding several stat blocks for each race, or a note in the DMG/MM that says "if you wanna make a dwarf variant add XYZ"?
frank python
the latter
dawn robin
Ye thats ok, as then its up to the DM to add or not (or ignore which is also ok)
frank python
Yeah, pretty much. And if you want, you can streamline it to the extremes (+2*CR HP, +1 AC, +3 to Fort and Will). But that's a little more lame than more active features like rerolls and such, so if anything, I'd make this optional.
dawn robin
agreed
frank python
Something I was thinking about doing is a description of how every class typically looks like for the race. It can be helpful for players, but it also seems to be a solid lorebuilding tip
Of course it doesn't replace proper lore, but it's a neat way to sum up the most game-relevant stuff
dawn robin
don't they already have that?
frank python
they do?
dawn robin
I thought most classes start with a few examples of what this class might look like
Barbarian
PHB p46
A tall human tribesman strides through a blizzard, draped in fur and hefting his axe. He laughs as he charges toward the frost giant who dared poach his people's elk herd.A half-orc snarls at the latest challenger to her authority over their savage tribe, ready to break his neck with her bare hands as she did to the last six rivals.
Frothing at the mouth, a dwarf slams his helmet into the face of his drow foe, then turns to drive his armored elbow into the gut of another.
These barbarians, different as they might be, are defined by their rage: unbridled, unquenchable, and unthinking fury. More than a mere emotion, their anger is the ferocity of a cornered predator, the unrelenting assault of a storm, the churning turmoil of the sea.
For some, their rage springs from a communion with fierce animal spirits. Others draw from a roiling reservoir of anger at a world full of pain. For every barbarian, rage is a power that fuels not just a battle frenzy but also uncanny reflexes, resilience, and feats of strength.
frank python
Yes, but that's the opposite way around and it doesn't really say anything about the race
oak talon
I think its fairly straight forward as to how being a barbarian may look like for you
frank python
I meant a table like:
Fighter: Dwarven fighters are typically heavily armed and armored foot soldiers. They rely on their natural stalwartness to stands as an impenetrable shield wall, and their smith's strength to crush their enemies with heavy hammers and axes.
Wizard: Dwarven wizards are typically geomancers and diviners, commonly specializing in finding resources underground. They specialize in X and Y spells for combat...
Y'know, something like this
dawn robin
I mean, this is kinda that but with more drama and flavor
frank python
And focused on class instead of race
This is more of an exercise, really, but I think it can be helpful
oak talon
i think it might be a little excessive to have like
every single class have a description for every single race
i think sections about the gods, combat styles, and values of a race can already help create those connections
frank python
Well, yes. But this forces you to actually think in terms of directly relevant stuff. The other things should absolutely exist too though. As I said, it's more of an exercise, I'm not convinced you should actually include it. Just wanted to share because I think it's neat
dawn robin
fair enough
frank python
And at some point you'll realize you never thought of some combination
dawn robin
dwarf + anything because I forget they exist all the time
frank python
Uh... what?
dawn robin
somehow they blend into the crowd in my head, with all the glitz and glamor of the fancy races that have come out since
and I guess I don't have many players who play clerics
I use em as NPCs all the time but don't think about em with classes
frank python
Well, personally I rather like simple-and-sturdy races. And more importantly, I like simple, classic, low-magic races. Most of the new stuff just "looks" goofy
dawn robin
they are also from an age where ASI were locked on races before TCE and such, so I consider them much more restrictive
even tho I use the variable TCE rules
frank python
Well, obviously. Does anyone actually stick to these?
dawn robin
ye, before TCE most did
frank python
ok, but now it doesn't matter whether the race is old or new
dawn robin
ye but my brain isn't smart by default
it thinks they follow the same rules as before
so in my head, they are more lame due to being restricted, despite no longer being restricted
frank python
Well, Goliaths are better, but they're pretty much tall surface dwarves
frank python
so in my head, they are more lame due to being restricted, despite no longer bei...
ok, but they're still literally one of the 4 starter races
dawn robin
Well, Goliaths are better, but they're pretty much tall surface dwarves
random Q: Thoughts on onednd making goliath more giant based rather than an independent species?
frank python
don't
if anything, move them away from giants
the One idea is cool, but it absolutely isn't Goliath anymore
twilit sinew
I'm late to this but you can call the bio race "ancestry"
dawn robin
Maybe too pathfindery
twilit sinew
eh
feels like the best term
if you accidentally arrive to a similar conclusion to PF, maybe it just shows PF is good
"race" still feels weird, and it's confusing since it's the same term as plain 5e
dawn robin
Ancestry feels too familial to me
twilit sinew
that's fair but I don't know if there are any better terms
dawn robin
Race is a classic, understood by the community and recognized quickly
If it ain't broke
This system is mostly 5e after all, so an easier conversion makes everyone happy
Not that it's not a bad term, but I'm not wanting to get too many pathfinder terms and it's alright already
twilit sinew
"race" feels weird because of D&D's complicated history with racism
dawn robin
Well, I'm not WOTC, hopefully I'll avoid em
twilit sinew
parentage, lineage and origin also work
dawn robin
Origin isn't bad, tho doesn't feel biological enough
twilit sinew
yeah, but origin + culture makes sense tbh
heritage feels too blurred because your heritage can be both biological and cultural
lineage actually might be good because that's also the term WOTC is now using to describe character player races post-TCOE
restive idol
I will say, it being Race, and WotC's racism aren't exactly linked
WotC willstill be racist with lineage/species/whatever
them trying to wash some keywords without changing their core behaviour isn't going to fix diddly xD
twilit sinew
that is true
I guess it just feels weird to me considering it is also a term we use IRL
twilit sinew
them trying to wash some keywords without changing their core behaviour isn't go...
yeah, like continuing to use lore that paints a majority of a race as evil
restive idol
or gestures to hadozee
ancient bolt
them trying to wash some keywords without changing their core behaviour isn't go...
well...
They did remove all the (maybe potentially) racist lore from stuff like Orcs
twilit sinew
like they can reword the description of yuan-ti as a playable race, but yuan-ti are still. literal devil worshippers across the board
they don't even have a god like how drow have eilistraee
restive idol
well...
They did remove all the (maybe potentially) racist lore from stuff like ...
and replaced it with... nothing... so aren't they just "bioevil punching bag" now?
s'not the way to go about it tbh.
twilit sinew
tbh this is a general issue with the faerun setting
and other settings but especially faerun
but I'm not gonna hijack this thread to go into That
you are right tho, replacing wording actually doesn't fix it, so maybe race isn't as bad as I thought
restive idol
I mean, it's easy enough to fix.
"Orcs are not a biologically evil monoculture, they have diverse feelings, culture and goals" bam, done. ezpz
twilit sinew
even a mention of general cultural shifts or potential outpockets of resistances help fix that
implying it's a matter of control over the culture by certain groups who perpetuate it, rather than something innate to them
ancient bolt
like they can reword the description of yuan-ti as a playable race, but yuan-ti ...
🤓 aksually the god yuan-ti worship isn't a devil
restive idol
Personally, I'm sticking with Race, because my project is 5e-revised, and basically ignores everything after December 31st 2023.
(And frankly, a chunk before that).
So mine will just add lore info.
I think rachs broadening shit too, but he has more freedom there.
dawn robin
Having orcs as a playable race in the base book also helps, OG 5e only had half orcs (which may have been even worse?)
twilit sinew
🤓 aksually the god yuan-ti worship isn't a devil
you get what I mean
ancient bolt
yes
twilit sinew
Having orcs as a playable race in the base book also helps, OG 5e only had half ...
this is the original DMG orc...
aggressive, fucking stupid, and not even playable
dawn robin
Classic
restive idol
Having orcs as a playable race in the base book also helps, OG 5e only had half ...
So... yesno...
If you view orcs as diverse, sapient beings, with a rich culture, and different sociopolitical factions, with only some being evil (be it from dark influence, or the evil that creatures do), so that there's an array of options for Half Orcs to come into being, and a variety of upbringing options for those people, and the experience that brings... there's nothing wrong with it!
If you view orcs as biologically evil, and effectively angry animal-people, and they only make halforcs through one way, and so the spawn is shunned as an unwanted punishment or reminder of trauma, and so they are abused and/or are also biologically evil... not so much.
dawn robin
Yah, the issue being that early 5e pretty much only had evil orcs afaik, so...
Bit of a yikes
Wonder what the old lore for phb half orc was
twilit sinew
OH GOD I DIDN'T EVEN THINK OF THAT
restive idol
this is the original DMG orc...
That said, Im OK with the idea of an Orc having a negative Int, and having trouble with book smarts.
If it was say, +2str, +2 con, +1 wis, -2 int, representing enhanced toughness and wilyness, but they struggle with the structured learning int represents... I'm down.
"questionably sapient green unga bunga animal people"... less down. xD
dawn robin
Yuuup
twilit sinew
Wonder what the old lore for phb half orc was
I can find it
restive idol
gimme a sec, I'll have it
dawn robin
Whether united under the leadership of a mighty warlock or having fought to a standstill after years of conflict, orc and human tribes sometimes form alliances, joining forces into a larger horde to the terror of civilized lands nearby. When these alliances are sealed by marriages, half-orcs are born. Some half-orcs rise to become proud chiefs of orc tribes, their human blood giving them an edge over their full-blooded orc rivals. Some venture into the world to prove their worth among humans and other civilized races. Many of these become adventurers, achieving greatness for their mighty deeds and notoriety for their barbaric customs and savage fury.
So if a human tribe is unga enough for orc bunga, you get half orcs
The result of alliance forced marriages
restive idol
twilit sinew
tldr you might be good if you're half human! but you'll still have some evil in ya!
fuck you if you're an orc
your only saving grace is being purified by being half human
that's shit
dawn robin
Yah, it was something
twilit sinew
that's dogshit
dawn robin
Early dnd for ya
If they posted that today they'd get ripped to shreds
Next up: half-illithid due to the success of BG3
restive idol
If they posted that today they'd get ripped to shreds
instead they just say Half-races are racist, so they are removing them.
(But don't worry, you can still buy them if you want to on our website, you scamp you)
twilit sinew
my character I'm doing for my new game is literally a yuan-ti aasimar
just to be clear, his father wedded an angel. just as am extra middle finger to the lore saying they're all evil, and making it clear it's not his heritage making him good
but I shouldn't need to do this myself
dawn robin
I'm still wondering if I should add support for universal race mixing
I have half human half anything support
twilit sinew
would be nice if you did
restive idol
I'm still wondering if I should add support for universal race mixing
make the sex table
do it coward
dawn robin
The boef already did it so well tho
restive idol
yeah, just rip the BoEF off.
dawn robin
Or
twilit sinew
would be cool if aasimar and tieflings could have kids and not just cancel out because something something cosmic alignment cancels out
restive idol
Hell, if you don't have a copy, I will send you my PDF.
dawn robin
I just say the fertility god decided screw it, let them all screw
twilit sinew
what's boef
twilit sinew
oh
restive idol
what's boef
are you over 18, and of a disposition to be fine with content of an adult nature.
dawn robin
It's the ||dnd official sex guide||
restive idol
then yeah, google it.
Or BoEF Gwendolyn FM Kestrel
dawn robin
It's funny how detailed older editions got
twilit sinew
is that what we're getting at
restive idol
then yeah, google it.
Or BoEF Gwendolyn FM Kestrel
I don't even have to google that, I just remember it.
I spent so long looking for the bloody thing.
dawn robin
Yes
twilit sinew
WOAH
restive idol
wait so it includes mixes of different races tho?
yes.
twilit sinew
WAIT I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS
twilit sinew
is there a 5e??
restive idol
WAIT I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS
get the PDF from DMsGuild.
Not the hardcopy.
dawn robin
Not official at least
restive idol
is there a 5e??
lolno
twilit sinew
aw :(
dawn robin
Tho for real if I did make a full mix compatibility I'd just let everyone mix
If you can explain it to your DM go for it
restive idol
to just copy from the last time it came up:
it was 3rd ed and like... semi-official?
third party ogl, but the people making it were linked to WotC, and making d20 stuff for WotC so...
essentially, a 2nd party product
this books great.
It's so silly, they got given the arguably dumb assingment of "make the D&D sex book", and they went so hard into it when they didn't have to.
As well as being very in depth on consent, sex, sexuality, reproduction, etc, they commissioned a lot of not art, but straight up D&D specific photoshoots to give a lot of it imagery too.
It's still got a biit of "haha funny sex book", but as above, its only about a third of it at most.
dawn robin
My only issue is, no matter how I'd do it it would be a min maxer's dream
Or I make it a worse race than any other
restive idol
WAIT I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS
But yeah, the PDF on DrivethruRPG is a vaguely sensible price.
It's a very hard hardcopy to get for a sensible price - regularly going for £500-900+ in mint condition.
It's the top of my Grail books, and holds pride of place in my collection.
twilit sinew
I'VE SEEN THAT TABLE
restive idol
My only issue is, no matter how I'd do it it would be a min maxer's dream
the trick is modularity.
Like a sectional DB.
iirc, was looking at 4 or 6 "points", so DB wise, a mixed race would be core ASI + 6 points to spend on parents features, each point worth ~3db sort of thing
dawn robin
The easy solution is to just let you take any race, and swap one of its two primary features with another race's
twilit sinew
I'm a little sad it doesn't have yuan-ti on there but I'm just gonna use lizardfolk in place
seems a yuan-ti aasimar is semi-officially possible
dawn robin
Since my races all have 2 core features
dawn robin
Then u get the senses and variants of the "main" and only one feature of the "sub"
Guess genetics and dominant genes or something idk
restive idol
mm
dawn robin
But that's just asking for a min mixer to grab a strong race, dump the worst feature, and grab the power feature of another race
twilit sinew
I think the best solution is to allow race mixing but ultimately make their cultural heritage more important regarding their abilities, and make those balanced
so it's not just focused on combining the two strongest races
dawn robin
I've tried to make every feature roughly equal in power, but I can never be perfect
twilit sinew
actually encourage creative backstories thru design and all
twilit sinew
I've tried to make every feature roughly equal in power, but I can never be perf...
then you did your best
not your fault if minmaxers go nuts
that's a DM's problem to block
I feel like if you're concerned with what a minority of players, the crazy minmaxers, do, you'll just impede what the average player can do
it should be on the DM to shut that down case by case imo
just like how DMs can ban variant human if a player is That Fucking Guy
dawn robin
Moreso that the presence of a feature may encourage min maxer playstyles
Min maxers will min max no matter what, but not having easily exploited features minimizes the presence of "almost" min maxers
twilit sinew
that is a fair concern
twilit sinew
that's a good decision
twilit sinew
that way DMs can block That Guy from going nuts
dawn robin
Then in new books it's like "nvm that everyone loves them now"
Which, I do agree the internet loves tieflings (maybe too much), but it is a pretty fast lore turn inworld
twilit sinew
it could so easily be turned into a commentary on racism and appearances
like oh actually, they can be just as good as anyone else, but sometimes they're turned to dark paths because of expectations on them
so on
restive idol
10/10
dawn robin
Yes, I want everyone to love them, but gimme a reason
restive idol
in my setting most people don't give a shit.
those that do find them unsettling, is solely due to concern they might be lawyers or from the interplanar DMV type thing
dawn robin
I think they just said "enough adventurers were cool tieflings so now everyone forgives them for... whatever they did"
twilit sinew
Yes, I want everyone to love them, but gimme a *reason*
like did a group of tieflings do something significant to warrant it? have tieflings had more children and their growing numbers begin to normalize them? have people realized they are fierce and loyal companions?
twilit sinew
in my setting most people don't give a shit.
those that do find them unsettling,...
that's incredibly funny
10/10, no notes
sees someone with horns OH FUCK THEY'RE HERE BECAUSE MY CART REGISTRATION EXPIRED
dawn robin
Found it
twilit sinew
I think they just said "enough adventurers were cool tieflings so now everyone f...
but WHY
dawn robin
The new onednd "reason"
twilit sinew
WHAT DID THEY DO
dawn robin
A couple random tieflings were good, so now everyone loves them
dawn robin
Yes
twilit sinew
you could make a whole game plot about how those tieflings earned everyone's respect rather than just going "yeah they did it. off screen. doesn't matter now"
restive idol
*sees someone with horns* OH FUCK THEY'RE HERE BECAUSE MY CART REGISTRATION EXPI...
(in my setting devils are heavily office workers and bureaucrats, doing the paperwork, hell is literally endless office cubicles and watercoolers.
patrons and deals with the devil are straight up contracts and business transactions
demons are a bit more varied, but also largely a police state in their realm
blood war at this point is basically those operators in suits and a tac vest, vs the american policeforce.)
twilit sinew
I like that
restive idol
you could make a whole game plot about how those tieflings earned everyone's res...
That's the thing with WotC though.
Most of their "fixes" are handwaving and deleting, rather than actually fixing anything.
twilit sinew
Very beurocratic hell
also very bureaucratic heaven too
dawn robin
The question now comes, as I'm rewriting the lore, should I add racism? XD
twilit sinew
yes!
it makes things interesting
it's boring if everyone gets along for no reason. there's a lack of commentary and it also doesn't make sense within any setting that has, for example, any two races going to war
restive idol
The question now comes, as I'm rewriting the lore, should I add racism? XD
racism / bigotry is always a thing, and ultimately a setting feels sterilised without it.
It's better to be hinted at, with subtlety than explicit though.
dawn robin
But my rules will not be for a specific setting, they will be the universal generic
Should it still exist in such a vacuum
twilit sinew
tieflings don't deserve a bad reputation, but it makes sense why they do. they strongly resemble fiends and there's few enough numbers to make sense that someone who's never encountered a tiefling assumes they are a fiend, and generally a society that hates fiends won't trust a minority that comes from them too
what matters is to make the distinction that they ARE far beyond what society expects
restive idol
I say that, but my setting does have a bare minimum of racism tbh.
Bit of "greyskin" hate (lack of understanding between surface and underdark people), but otherwise it's pretty... chill in that regard.
Almost none infact in modern societies.
There's occasional jabs on racial traits, but it's mostly about allegience and effort put in, due to in the cataclysm your worth wasn't your race - it was if you stuck in and helped people not starve to death or not.
Pre-cataclysm society (and those with links to it), super racist tho.
twilit sinew
a lot of early 5e went "these monstrous races are expected to be evil and most of them are but your special widdle player character can be different"
which is just not right
having societal expectations of a race makes sense. having them actually literally just be that expectation is bad
and they still do this shit with goblins too!
twilit sinew
Should it still exist in such a vacuum
make notes of it if it's for a normal regular fantasy setting
where it makes sense that there's suspicions of orcs and tieflings even if it's undeserved
restive idol
I say that, but my setting does have a bare minimum of racism tbh.
Bit of "greys...
Which is funny, cos it basically means that 90% of the settings racism is focused on the moon, with the space nazis
But they're racist enough for everyone, so it's OK
twilit sinew
but note that if a setting is different, to still encourage tensions among certain cultures due to any history such as a bloody war or propaganda spread by leaders
to flesh out the world
restive idol
The question now comes, as I'm rewriting the lore, should I add racism? XD
so yeah, racism is a sometimes food, bigotry / tension / Othering will be a part of any setting though.
dawn robin
Would also be amusing if some "racism" was actually spread from the race's god who had beef with the other race's god
twilit sinew
Which is funny, cos it basically means that 90% of the settings racism is focuse...
I'm also writing a setting where racism has eased but there's space nazis too lmao
restive idol
Ah, worldbuilding, and GM prep, the "things taken out of context" jackpot.
dawn robin
Every good setting has nazis somewhere
twilit sinew
I mean you're right. that sort of horrific supremacist ideology lurks in the corners of society if it isn't prominent, and deserves to be villified
restive idol
I'm also writing a setting where racism has eased but there's space nazis too lm...
if it helps, they ride dinosaurs.
twilit sinew
if it helps, they ride dinosaurs.
mine are from mars and cannibals
restive idol
(the pre-cataclysm society was near startrekian, but also ultrafacist. The moon ones are the last enclave of that society, and were extremists of it then.
They are at war with magic cats.)
twilit sinew
(in my setting, earth was going to shit so all these different groups from earth went to different planets and got scattered across the galaxy by a mysterious force. the martian nazis are descended of billionaires who fucked off to and terraformed mars, and they're specifically Those billionaires with subtle eugenicist and white supremacist ideologies. y'all know who I mean)
(eventually they just all dissolved into cannibals)
(because they were incapable of working with each other as a society)
restive idol
So yeah, conflict is good, just make sure it's not all that defines a race, people or society
dawn robin
Which race of the SRD do u think should be the most racist ||and why is it dwarves||
restive idol
Which race of the SRD do u think should be the most racist ||and why is it dwarv...
Elves.
dawn robin
What a perfect pair
twilit sinew
elves
ancient bolt
agree with elves
twilit sinew
specifically high elves
restive idol
It wouldn't even be deliberate, just elves would see basically most other race like intelligent pets or livestock.
The more progressive ones would say things like "they're awfully clever for a race that lives such short lives", the less progressive ones would treat foreign nations like visiting a zoo, or engaging in trade negotiations with a pack of dogs.
twilit sinew
make wood elves chill
ancient bolt
dwarves hold grudges but aren't as disposed to being racist
twilit sinew
what I'm saying is elder scrolls this
ancient bolt
specifically high elves
also agree
on both points
twilit sinew
high elves but make there be a reason for the racism
dawn robin
Ye, I do remember our talks about how the crazy long lives of elves would mess so much up
restive idol
Other races would also likely see elves like dogs and cats see humans tbh.
A near eldritch being that your grandmother knew as a child, that has barely aged as you lay on your deathbed
twilit sinew
in elder scrolls, the altmer (high elves) are racist because of the ruling class, the thalmor, who promote eugenics and genetic "purity." most high elves are racist because they have been tricked into thinking they're the purest elves, but the thalmor actually are as oppressive and controlling as they are because not only do they believe in elf eugenics, but they also want to end the world believing it will promote them to god status. you don't need to do this in depth since this is for universal settings but essentially, make it make sense you know
restive idol
This is the sort of bioessentialism we should have, over "lol, orcs are born evil, lmao"
twilit sinew
YES
look the elder scrolls games aren't the best mechanically but the lore fucks hard
the only race I have issues with the writing of honestly are the reachmen (forsworn) and even they were written with some sympathetic views
they even touch up on racism against dark elves. and dark elves aren't even evil, they're just very hardcore
all races playable, none really evil. be more like elder scrolls lore
even the gods can be ambiguous and don't have set in stone lore and morality
that's actually a huge source of conflict, where mankind's patron is seen as evil by the elves
but like, not actually evil
(it's complicated)
dawn robin
So I started working on Rogue a bit to take a break from the races, I (and my most common rogue player) really liked the idea of cunning strikes from onednd, though it has its issues we were ready to instantly implement it as is to our future 5e games.
I was working on it and realized... I might be able to do this better by instead letting the rogue gain both 1) multiattack, and 2) more options to use with the Combo action! That way I don't really hurt the DPS of the rogue, they won't use cunning strike every round (if they miss the first attack they prob wanna try another normal attack to get that SA damage), and its super easily scalable!
For those unaware of my new attack actions
Examples of how I might do it for rogue (it would be at 5th level not 3rd lol)
dawn robin
oh wait... I just realized... what if I let rogue take the Combo action as a cunning action? Then they can combo just about every turn. And it also means that I can add "stronger" combo actions that require you take the combo action twice to use, so they'd have to spend an attack + Swift to use it
Oh yah, its all coming together
wording is super rough but something like this
When you take the Combo action you can choose from these additional options regardless of the damage type you used, however you must also expend your Swift action to do so.
Maybe better
dawn robin
I'm gonna type up a blurb and post to a brew chat on this
#brew_14 message message here
A bit of a long + deep system one ||that's what she said|| so I might not get as much response, but hey you miss every shot you don't take
rough kite
I want to read this after my meeting in a bit
is combo considered a bonus action then? or bonus action equivalent?
dawn robin
For rogue, yes
Normally it's a thing for multiattackers to go "I hit you then I combo you with my second attack", but rogue can do it with their BA instead
rough kite
so this wouldn't cost sneak attack damage right?
dawn robin
Correct
rough kite
I think it's cool as hell and helps them step a bit more into monk control territory
rather than just stabby stab
dawn robin
Agreed, that's what I loved about onednd cunning strikes, and I hope this is able to bring it over without any damage loss
frank python
I've never liked Cunning Strikes, but I can't say why, it's completely irrational
dawn robin
Rogues thing is sneak attacks, and cunning strikes kinda try to replace sneak attacks
It feels weird when something new tries to replace an old staple, but also works alongside it while replacing it?
rough kite
if in testing you see it's too good you can just make the condition cost a single die
so they're not too hamstrung
dawn robin
Niche wise tho, rogue def needed something to help them step away from pure damage dealers and contend with mages
Hopefully this is a step towards that
dawn robin
if in testing you see it's too good you can just make the condition cost a singl...
Hopefully the "too good ones" can be moved to the greater cunning strikes feature
Tho, with only two options at base and +1 with greater, I need more ideas
Unless.... the subclasses grant more? 🤔
rough kite
now we're talking
assassin leaves an exposed wound for advantage or something, scout cuts their movement some, swashbuckler does some stuff
rough kite
disarm or make their next hit at DA or something
dawn robin
Cause the caster's next spell to auto fail as you stole one of their spell components when they weren't looking
rough kite
inquisitive reduces their insight or something? mastermind you can steal their face to copy
dawn robin
Tho an issue does arise from ranged attacks
rough kite
those two are harder to implement
dawn robin
As these also work for a bow
rough kite
maybe not every sub gives one?
dawn robin
Maybe
frank python
Sneak attacks that steals someone face sounds particularly brutal
rough kite
I'm thinking GoT style where you can make a disguise of them
probably not a good one for this feature
frank python
I think I'm glad I haven't watched it
dawn robin
Could just be magik
rough kite
I think I'm glad I haven't watched it
it's less gory than it sounds
dawn robin
Sub specific expansions is neat tho
Arcane trickster casts a nondamaging spell as their combo
Idk, but its an open book
Full of possibilities
frank python
Arcane trickster casts a nondamaging spell as their combo
just add a Swordmage already
dawn robin
I'll call it Gish and say that this is the gish class. This will surely unite the nations
dawn robin
Thief
I'm thinking about rewriting subclass levels to be every 4 levels for every class too, so we don't have sad rogue with 3rd level features then nothing till 9th
alternatively, 6/10/14/(20) is standard, with the first features being at 1/2/3
dawn robin
ye, 6/10/14 could be the norm for all
1/2/3 for 1st, and 20 is optional
tho that means that some would have 5 subclass features (or more if doubled up)
which, I guess is ok for classes that are very sub dependant
so either
1/6/10/14
2/6/10/14
3/6/10/14
or
1/5/9/13
2/6/10/14
3/7/11/15
I'm only considering standardizing this because I think it'd be neat if (with no multiclassing) all players get to get sub features at the same time
so everyone's like "yay its the subclass level"
rough kite
agreed, just like extra attack and spells etc
multiclassing makes things so much messier
dawn robin
They are a cat, capable of anything
rough kite
Thief
this looks good if you can balance around enemies not having weapons
do they lose attacks altogether? or just deal reduced damage?
dawn robin
Would likely default to an unarmed attack, some enemies would be nearly unaffected while others would be greatly hampered
Hm, if I do anticipate more than thief disarming foes, I may want to include a default or backup attack for most weapon using foes
rough kite
yeah if you want to make it a more universal option it’s something to consider
when I was working on timewalker I found out how little support there was for disarms
dawn robin
yah, it is a universal option atm, though using it via Combo (which only thief can do) is more effective, normally
rough kite
so in that case they’d have to object interaction to pick it up at their next turn, right? would that have any actual impact?
thief just taking it definitely does
dawn robin
ye, I think the idea would be that Disarm requires follow up, either by you or an ally
if you do nothing then ye they just retrieve the item
rough kite
I like it
dawn robin
Is this strong enough to make surprise still really strong, but also not prevent them from acting at all?
ancient bolt
Is this strong enough to make surprise still really strong, but also not prevent...
- a surprised creature ceases to be surprised when it starts its turn
- Interpreting this RAW, this means the condition does nothing.
rest of it does seem fine
- Interpreting this RAW, this means the condition does nothing.
dawn robin
well, it suffers these penalties until its first turn in combat, was the goal
so like, they are surprised, roll initiative with penalty, takes longer to get to their turn, then they end the condition
ancient bolt
so like, they are surprised, roll initiative with penalty, takes longer to get t...
end it at the end of their turn
Or go full 3x with a surprise round
dawn robin
technically 5e kinda has a surprise round atm
though I'm trying to remove as many "you can't play" conditions as I can, which I include surprise in
though penalties on your first turn are ok imo
ancient bolt
Not really
Surprise is a pseudo-condition - it's not a condition, but it works like one
ancient bolt
Seems fine.
Am unsure as to the extent of "saving throws it inflicts" - If I am surprised and I push you off a cliff, do you have advanatage on the Dex save to take half damage?
dawn robin
the ground inflicts that damage, but you'd have advantage to resist the push
at least, that's how I'd rule it
ancient bolt
cool
Makes sense an object can inflict a save - works well with traps.
dawn robin
Reminds me I need to make falling rules
I wanna make it possible to do air combos on someone, but also not have Wylie coyote rules
Maybe, all falls happen at end of (every) turn, unless it's the turn of the person falling in which case its instant?
Tho then what about if someone wants to shove someone in the air but instantly combo them back on the ground?
Maybe it's the choice of the launcher
dawn robin
I think I'll go with choice of launcher, makes the most sense and really shouldn't break things
dawn robin
A little more clean writing + bold
Not sure if I should put a max...
like, there should be one to avoid just someone instagibbing an enemy or something
but should it be 5e's 20d6?
ancient bolt
but should it be 5e's 20d6?
what other numbers could it be
That one already works well, after all
dawn robin
Ye, tho, humans don't reach terminal velocity until they fall... about 1,500 ft
in 5e you reach terminal velocity in 200 ft
though you also reach that max speed irl in about... 12 seconds apparently?
if the first result of my google search is right
ancient bolt
true
5e it would take 18 seconds approx
I think PF's max is like 700?
So it for sure can be really, really high, as long as it can't be abused (which is more on the class/subclass side of thigns)
dawn robin
tho also, "commoners" irl with 4 hp can survive terminal velocity, albeit with grand injury (normally)
ancient bolt
tho also, "commoners" irl with 4 hp can survive terminal velocity, albeit with g...
are those really commoners?
Plus those circumstances basically never happen.
dawn robin
Good old nat 20
ancient bolt
Good old nat 20
i don't think it was skill, more of just in the right place
So it'd be more of the of the DM being nice to the player and letting them chalk of the fall damage bc of where they fell rather than the player's action deciding it.
restive idol
tho also, "commoners" irl with 4 hp can survive terminal velocity, albeit with g...
technically, I think that's a case of:
Fall damage is all 1s, and that commoner rolled max HP, that commoner then passed their death saves.
ancient bolt
technically, I think that's a case of:
Fall damage is all 1s, and that commoner ...
this fits that well
dawn robin
maybe the "elite athelete" stat block has 21 hp
ancient bolt
guards have 11
they could take 20 damage, and then get to do death saves, and potentially stay alive
dawn robin
the odds of rolling a 20 on 20d6
ancient bolt
ok
dawn robin
0.00000000000000027351112
in decimal form
ancient bolt
quite low
dawn robin
a little bit yah
technically... the odds are actually half that
as not only do they need to roll 20 on damage, they also need to win those death saves
a little more than half because death saves favor life a touch but hey
restive idol
there's been about 160 recorded instances of people falling at terminal velocity that survived in the last century
dawn robin
slightly more than 3x10^-16
tho to get the odds we'd have to know how many people didn't survive term velocity too
restive idol
yeah
a quick google says roughly 680,000 falls a year - though that's all, and not just terminal
dawn robin
maybe those people were secretly level 5 adventurers
at least a handful had feather-fall
restive idol
A little more clean writing + bold
that said, to this and the question - very much yes a max.
dawn robin
ah ye, I remember that
restive idol
Techncially, it'd take you ~1.2-1.5 turns falling to hit terminal velocity, and the first turn you'd fall like... 450-480 feet, but that's too in the weeds
dawn robin
halving fall damage if you are conscious... actually...
I could redo that as you always make a Dex save to half the damage
as long as evasion doesn't somehow make that messed up...
ancient bolt
halving fall damage if you are conscious... actually...
don't
unless you are a cat, have a special suit, being concius or unconcious has 0 practical impact
(I assume, a science nerd could tell me I'm wrong)
dawn robin
kinda, you can spread yourself out more or do other things to slow yourself down
if you are unconscious, you just fall like a rock
restive idol
don't
unless you are a cat, have a special suit, being concius or unconcious has...
see table.
Being awake means you slow down.
Being unconcious makes you faster (and increases your terminal because you flop and less air resistance)
dawn robin
restive idol
Also, technically cats would just reduce fall damage by 100ft or some shit
dawn robin
technically this means a 10 foot fall has a DC 1 save but....
ancient bolt
technically this means a 10 foot fall has a DC 1 save but....
has -1 reflex
fails DC 1 save
dawn robin
I've twisted my ankle falling 5 feet, I apparently can fail a DC 0.5 save
ancient bolt
I've twisted my ankle falling 5 feet, I apparently can fail a DC 0.5 save
that didn't deal damage though
It's not like you cracked, tore, or fractured anything
ancient bolt
you took 0.5 damage
ancient bolt
tho I'm sure someone has broken a bone falling 1 foot
hard floors really do hurt
dawn robin
maybe minimum of DC 10
dawn robin
shore
ancient bolt
failable, but no one would really
ancient bolt
maybe the fall has to be at least 100 feet to even try
5e minimum is 10
For damage
dawn robin
that would weirdly kinda include the fact you would then have time to actually do something that would slow you
smaller falls you just don't have time
If the creature fell at least 100 feet, it can attempt a Reflex save with a DC equal to the number of feet it fell divided by 10 (max DC 20). On success, it takes half as much damage.
dawn robin
true, that could also work
A creature can attempt a Reflex save with a DC of 10 plus the number of feet it fell divided by 10 (max DC 20). On success, it takes half as much damage.
max DC 30 I guess actually
ancient bolt
max DC 30 I guess actually
max is clearly written as 20
dawn robin
ye, but now its 10 +
ancient bolt
it's all one sentence
dawn robin
so at 20d6 damage, it'd be a DC 30
ancient bolt
DC 20
restive idol
*you took 0.5 damage*
This gives me a silly idea tho.
Like reverse inspiration - minor damage.
Do something that would do a partial-point of damage? You get a pip.
So resistance that has to round, a save for half, or just you stub your toe, whatever.
Next time you would take partial damage, you take 1 damage and the pip goes away.
Pip also leaves on a short or long rest, or if you receive healing.
like, it's really stupid, but also makes me giggle
ancient bolt
ye, but now its 10 +
DC 10 plus... (max DC20)
dawn robin
I'm very confused
restive idol
> A creature can attempt a Reflex save with a DC of 10 plus the number of feet i...
actually, remove division, use number of dice
10+numer of die
DC11-30
dawn robin
A creature can attempt a Reflex save with a DC of 10 plus the number of d6's of damage it took. On success, it takes half as much damage.
ancient bolt
I'm very confused
The DC max is at the end
You have the DC, then you have the max, which is cleary 20
Now it's changed to be Max 30
restive idol
> A creature can attempt a Reflex save with a DC of 10 plus the number of d6's o...
yeah, this is probably easier.
cos you're already doing the math for the die. wop wop
dawn robin
ye
tho
monk slow fall weirdly does't make the DC easier
You can use your Reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your level.
as its flat reduction, doesn't affect the dice count
maybe I can just give em advantage on the save lol
or they reduce the DC by an amount equal to their level
restive idol
I don't think it matters.
the fall is the fall.
If they pass the save, they reduce half the damage, if they don't, they reduce the bigger damage
they still take a lot less damage
rough kite
oh fuck a whole new rabbit hole
dawn robin
frank python
Why would you need to add that, especially if it's a lame +2?
Also you should specify that a nat20 is an automatic hit
dawn robin
I've ran that rule at my own table for about a year now, and my players enjoy it thoroughly. Mostly as it means you might be able to break a threshold (25/30) with that bonus that you couldn't before
and atm, nat 20 doesn't mean auto-hit anymore
its very unlikely to fail, especially with the extra bonus, but possible
some guy gets 25 AC, they are now immune to commoners
frank python
Hm. I guess you should specify "provided the attack hits" in the critical hit rules, just for clarity
dawn robin
On a Natural 20, you gain a +2 bonus to the Dice Test. Additionally, if this was an attack and hits, the attack is considered a Critical Hit.
I'll add "and hits" to the nat 20 rule
Regarding BA spells, other than Sorc Quicken are there any BA spells that break the game if I just let them cast freely? AKA, remove the BA spell rule and now you can cast misty step and fireball on one turn?
I remember having a similar convo before but its worth revisiting
frank python
Well, it's a buff 
dawn robin
ye, though it also means casters will burn slots faster
so might be easier to drain resources
if I just put the OG BA spell rule in the quicken spell MM but let everything else go free, it might be ok?
frank python
If anything, I'd do the opposite. Currently Quicken is kiiinda lame, you only get to add a little damage from a cantrip or maybe move. Allowing combos would make it cooler
You could even do "for 1 point, you can override the rule on a spell that was Swift already"
dawn robin
Is it? Add 2d10 damage on top of a normal turn is pretty notable
frank python
It's neat. But not really all that cool, especially that Empowered exists
frank python
Well, buff Empowered. Or maybe do some clever separation between movement-quicken, cantrip-quicken, and combo-quicken
dawn robin
I could buff empowered to just let it reroll any damage, rather than limited dice
frank python
Or something better, like automatically maximize
Or just make Empowered the "add cantrip" button, and Quicken for the other stuff
dawn robin
Empowered could be a "pick one target of spell, they take X additional damage"
maybe quicken could cut the cast time of longer spells, like 1 min casts
frank python
Could, though writing it like that sounds mildly lame. On the other hand, dice-related stuff is pretty spell-dependent. How about exploding dice? It's fairly equal regardless of die size, at least