#The Wielder: Half Caster based on Kingdom Hearts

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rich nimbus
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Here is the features:
Lv 1. You gain a weapon, armor or arcane focus with an extra bonus based on your choice
Lv 2. Spells and string together attacks for finishers
Lv 3. Pseudo Eldritch Invocations and subclass (3, 7, 10, 14, 18)
Lv 5. New Finisher
Lv 6. Gain an additional level 1 bonus
Lv 11. Flavor and use spell slots to make interparty combo attacks
Lv 14. Countercharm and free Detect Magic
Lv 20. Manipulate the Weave to do shenanigans
Subclasses-
Guardian
Lv 3. Uncanny Action and spin attack
Lv 7. Extra Attack
Lv 10. Ranged melee attack as spell
Lv 18. Take attacks for ally
Mystic
Lv 3. Cantrip and Metamagic finisher
Lv 7. War Caster
Lv 10. Glide
Lv 18. Shoot everything
Warrior
Lv 3. Double dip finisher, fighting style
Lv 7. Extra Attack
Lv 10. Recover from Prone
Lv 18. Attack a lot of times

rich nimbus
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Might boost level 1 but add some drawback, as the inspiration had you choose a path (woven tool) but had to give up something in return, like take a penalty to defense to get better with attacks

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But then again, it's difficult to add a magic downside that, say, a Barbarian would care about

sly furnace
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@rich nimbus what's class bonus? Place holder?

rich nimbus
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It's written down:
The term class bonus is used for both the Mystic Reach and Guardian's Stance feature, which is simply the proficiency bonus but only using the levels of this class, so if you are level 10 but only have 1 level Wielder, you use +2 instead of a normal +4.

sly furnace
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Alright, I'd put that before it shows up, for clarity

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What's your goal with this class?

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How much should I harp on story here? Because I'm very narrative driven, and believe that establishing a good (and unique) narrative base is where good features come from.

rich nimbus
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It's supposed to be a half caster that's aggressive, wanting to stay in a fight for long to build up combos

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But is very flextible, with the Woven Tool allowing you to be a decent tank, striker or mage (if you take the magic subclass)

sly furnace
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Okay, so I'm noting two things (without reading the whole class yet) from that answer that are important:

  1. The average 5e combat is 3 rounds. Combos will be hard to build up.

  2. Ypu answered in purely mechanical terms, not story. Again, not an issue explicitly, but it makes it hard for me to suggest alternative abilities. I can only really comment on mechanical balance if so

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Atm, the class reads like it's just meant to be a martial sorcerer, and not it's own thing. Is that what you have in mind?

rich nimbus
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Oh, in terms of story, the idea is that they would have likely been a sorcerer, but things got in the way and the Weave gone to protect them by making an item that they can channel their power through, the Woven Tool.

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I mean you tend to use a weave to make something

sly furnace
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Right, the main thing that is weird to me about that is that one of the most common sorcerer backstories is "as a kid I was attacked an in a moment of panic I cast my first spell"

rich nimbus
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True true

sly furnace
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If you want your class to be unique-- it's own thing--then I think a different story is needed.

I consider story important because it informs playstyle

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For example, you can manifest weapons from the weave. Why does that mean you have proficiency in medium armor?

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What do combos have to do with that?

rich nimbus
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True true. The idea is that I didn't think much about proficiency thb but combos are due to how having a weapon made by the magic would allow you to push magic through finishers

sly furnace
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As a DM, if I'm running a story driven campaign, and a player wants to play a sorcerer, I can ask them and include in the story elements about their heritage or origin, their reflection upon their own abilities, and all the intrigue and NPCs that can come from that (dragon dad!).

Can you say the same of Wielder?

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Even the subclasses, instead of being studf grounded into the narrative of a game, with story and implications, are just based on a single choice you make in kingdom hearts that gives you passive stats

rich nimbus
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Mainly I would have the story drive be what and why, as becoming one is a very rare situation or they have actually met another Wielder. Kinda the idea of getting a choosy artifact, where you have a drive to do what is either right or prove yourself worthy of the weapon

sly furnace
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Here is another point of interest: at level 1 you already make the choice of Sword/Rod/Shield or Guardian/Warrior/Mystic

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Why are we doing it twice?

rich nimbus
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I was thinking of having 1 and 3 connected, but then it would be too many subclass levels

sly furnace
sly furnace
rich nimbus
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Thinking about it, I could include a mechanic similar to Oathbreaker, where you basically need to be confident enough in your skills in order to wield it, as cutting the Sorcerer angle would give an idea similar to Cleric or Warlock, where your diety/patron is the very Weave itself

sly furnace
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I have a class with two subclass and 10 of the levels are subclass related. It's about designing to achieve your goal

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But in order to do that, you need to have a clear, well defined goal.

rich nimbus
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I think I could lean into the self made artifact angle, where you just panicked and a weapon appeared out of nowhere and it would mean that you have some sort of destiny

sly furnace
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One way to define a goal is to go down the list of classes and explain why it isn't a member of any of the other classes

sly furnace
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You need to have a plan to communicate why that's important, not leave it for someone else

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Becoming a draconic sorcerer is important because it grants you power, but also it grounds you to the world immediately. Which one of your parents or ancestors was a dragon? Which one? What happened? How long ago? Were you the product of a warlock Pact? Etx

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You get a weave/soul sword, that means....

rich nimbus
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Well I would keep the flavor (Weave made you a gift) but have it be due to something bad going on. In other words, the Weave itself wouldn't reach out to someone if there wasn't a potential threat on the horizon. Because the Weave doesn't just give swords to anyone. Kinda like waking up one day with a patron you cannot contact

sly furnace
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And to be clear Indie, I'm also not talking about just changing flavor text.

I'm saying to update the story, and then use that story to update the class.

sly furnace
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Maybe your subclass is what kind of disaster/event the weave sees coming, and then prepares you for it

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That's what I did for my Harbinger class.

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A Harbinger of War, A Harbinger of Death, A Harbinger of Hope

rich nimbus
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True true, so your Subclass is basically less "here's what you're already good at" and more "here's what you need to be good at"

sly furnace
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Sure.

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Now, to give a brief look at the mechanics because my commute it almost over

broken notch
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Interesting, I made a very similar class called the Scion back in the day-their items came from a lineage though, not magic...

That being said this feels less of a half-sorc at first glance(I skimmed over at the moment), and more of a...magical battlemaster? For me the core of the sorc is their sorcery points and theme of family heritage, which isn't quite present here.

rich nimbus
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I initially had Sorcery Points but replaced it with combos because I thought it had potential for issues

sly furnace
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Woven Tool seems like a multiclass hazard. Concentrationless hunters mark is a level 3ish spell. Guardian's Stance is strictly worse than Dodge, and people already don't use that. The staff is fine, but touch spells are very rare and you can easily just pick nothing that benefits from it.

Class bonus feels janky. Only relevant in a multiclass, not to the class itself, so it's inelegant design.

Spellcasting is normal.

Combo attack is exceedingly hard to get off. Before you get extra attack. Average round in a combat is 3. You have a 36% chance to even reach the condition a finisher could be used. And even then you can still miss. So something like 18% chance it happens assuming no second attack or advantage.

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If you do get multiple attacks, you limited the issue where you can generate enough for a combo every single turn, which means you can end up with the finisher every turn or sooner with any amount of advantages

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Multi-classing seems to be extremely effective here. To really fighting barbarians or Rogue gets extreme you set up guaranteed crits in just three levels

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That's all I got for now, got to get to work

rich nimbus
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Alright

broken notch
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Yeah I'm way more flavor focused because the mechanics don't immediately jump out to me meowsip

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But yeah, I'd say it feels like a take on a magical monk or a...mystic variant, or something along those lines. Not necessarily a halfsorc

rich nimbus
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It was initially a Half Sorc simply due to the idea of the Weave giving you something, so you'd need a metaphorical foot in the door

broken notch
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I think there's a problem with the number of core features, imo. Like, having a 1st-level choice, finishers, abilities, and spells feel too excessive and gives the feeling of a class with too much going on with it

sly furnace
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I think that is nothing to do with it. It's no different than a Paladin or Ranger really

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It's less Choice than a ranger would have, if their choices actually meant anything

rich nimbus
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Yeah, might remove abilities

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Might also change Warrior's Focus to Tasha's Favored Foe

broken notch
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I mean, rangers are a mess with no coordination between their actual features imo

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These feel like they should all be utilized or important to the class, and to me the combo, for instance, could be taken out to improve on abilities or add some different features(maybe extra attack at 5th and abilities at 2nd)

rich nimbus
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Well EA is subclass dependent as a subclass gets Cantrips

broken notch
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And that's...sort of the problem

Most finishers rely on attacks, which requires you to make a weapon(which is also odd as you start proficient in only simple weapons), so the Staff starter and Mystic subclass misses out on that entire feature line

sly furnace
rich nimbus
sly furnace
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The seeming of the focused specialized Hunter is never deviated from

signal brook
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Came here from #brew_14

rich nimbus
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ye

signal brook
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What would you like help with specifically?

broken notch
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Also, EA at 7th level is pretty late imo

rich nimbus
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Mainly see if it is balanced but it isn't rn

sly furnace
signal brook
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halfcaster with a 7th level EA? 🤔

broken notch
sly furnace
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This is why artificer, who gets can trips, also has sub classes Grant extra attack in fifth level

signal brook
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would need really good features for that to be worthwhile when juxtaposed with stuff like battlesmith or literally bladesinger

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i'm intrigued

broken notch
signal brook
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the issue with rangers imo is that they have a bunch of strong stuff barely held together by glue

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(the glue is the fact that the spell list they draw from has many 1-hour spells and spells that don't rely on wisdom)

broken notch
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I stand by nonmagical rangers but this isn't ranger we're here for ahem

signal brook
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anyway, any specific help wanted?

broken notch
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So yeah, anyways, 5th level EA is a standard in most instances

signal brook
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delayed EA is acceptable with exceptionally good features, like bardic or wizard full casting

broken notch
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Plate is also a weird item, because it grants you pretty dang high AC, but also unarmed attacks

rich nimbus
signal brook
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oh wow homebrewery sucks on chrome/android

broken notch
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Yup

rich nimbus
signal brook
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can't zoom out so i can now count the hairs on the nose of the letter T

broken notch
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I know that pain

signal brook
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lemme try desktop view

broken notch
signal brook
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a quick hop to the spell list immediately returns the issue of half casting stamina and progression

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blasts are just about the worst things for half casters

rich nimbus
signal brook
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a well-built weapon user performs similarly or better to half-cast spells withtheir weapons

broken notch
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For me, my Scion used Weapon, Plate, and Tome as their special 'Heirlooms'

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The weapon got a bonus to attack and damage whenever they cast a spell, plate got AC and dex bonus, and Tome...got you other class features but that's not relevant here

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Anyhow, my point is that if you split off your class into having a choice early on, it shold be core to their party role

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Weapon, melee skirmisher
Plate, tank or turret
Staff, ranged blaster is my take for what you were going here

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Oh and, like Izzy said before an action to boost AC is a pretty big waste, so it might be better to have it consistent in some way(half of PB rounded down scales like artificer infusions), or trigger instantly in certain events

sly furnace
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It sounds like your mechanically repeating elements of your previous class

signal brook
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honestly, thr whole class looks like it adds a lot of complexity for not a lot of resultant mechanical power

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feels a bit out of place within the 5e systen

rich nimbus
broken notch
rich nimbus
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Or give a diet Shield Master to Plate

broken notch
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Something like that, if you're leaning into AC

sly furnace
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When making Base Class features, I find giving them light versions of other abilities feels extremely unsatisfying. The point of a class is that nothing else will do what you do quite like you do

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That's what makes it a class not a sub class or a feat

rich nimbus
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Well I could add something to Dex saves or AC to help evasion or tankiness

sly furnace
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As a note, it is extremely important for a class to have a core mechanic. The core mechanic defines its identity and role in the game and in the world and in the party. Combos could fulfill that role, but currently they do not actually inform your decision making and very meaningful ways. The only thing combos encourage you to do is seek accuracy above everything else. There's no specific course of action that is required, or specific role the Combos enforce

signal brook
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organisation of the subclasses could really use some work

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i'm not sure i understand what goes where

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a separate page for each with a large # or ## header

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would help a lot

rich nimbus
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I'm currently shoving Level 1 to be subclass

broken notch
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Like I said, if it's leaning into AC, since there are...many abilities that boost AC, it's bound to feel similar to something

If you made it something entirely new though, you could use temporary hit points, though that might too similar to an abjurater's arcane ward. Or gaining resistance, since the item is brought by magic it could have affinities with harmful energy

sly furnace
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In a way, you have a similar pattern to rogue. You're seeking advantage. The difference between this and Rogue is that Rogue is not the only given a ton of out of combat utility, is intentionally granted a lower amount of durability and extreme Mobility to force them into a skirmisher role. They have to be opportunistic because they can't face tank

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Additionally Rogue is a lot more reliable, because they're Advantage seeking actually relies on a single attack to deliver most of the payload

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But you as a player have no control over the strings of your attacks and whether or not they hit or Miss

broken notch
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I'd also potentially suggest making your subclasses based on the items instead of having other subclasses, because for me what branches out the class the most is what items you received, not the type of skills you got from them(which I take is where the subclasses are supposed to be now)

sly furnace
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You can optimize for it, but then that will result in very delinquent play patterns

rich nimbus
broken notch
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The onky example in my head for combo attacks is the Gunslinger from Heavyarms, tbh

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But for that class the whole mechanic was critical, and it doesn't quite feel that way with the combos

broken notch
rich nimbus
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So it's easier to land consecutive hits, but it's harder to have a longer combo (maybe give Blade BA attack)

broken notch
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My biggest gripe is that I don't see why combos even fit in the class, though. Combos make me feel like it'll be a swordsman class or something like that, not a half-caster

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It's combat options that would usually be given to something like a battlemaster

rich nimbus
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Well I don't know what to replace it with aside from something like Fighting Style

sly furnace
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Agreed with frigion

broken notch
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I think you change 5th to extra attack, unless you shift subclass levels to include level 5

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Which I recommend on doing since Staff users won't benefit from it

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As for 2nd level you can take abilities early, or have something along the lines of fighting style like you said

signal brook
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i think a lot of this stems from the whole class kind of lacking a specific identity

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it does a bunch of unrelated things, and not very inspiringly

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i think it's worth taking a step back and figuring out your top 1-3 things you want to see about the class, and why someone would want to play it over another class

rich nimbus
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Currently, the big things that I want to focus on are:

  1. You are in possession of a magic item tied to your very essence.
  2. You have a connection to the Weave as it reached out to you.
  3. The mechanical selling point should be the variety of choices and style, similar to Warlocks and Fighters where no 2 are alike.
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Hence taking the spellcasting "stat" of that odd One Dnd Warlock

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As it should be one designed to allow expression as the main thing, the Woven Tool, is an extension of yourself in the most literal sense

broken notch
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I feel like this plays on the idea of like...Excalibur, or some legendary item stuff like that, which gives me, at least, an identity to imagine about

I think Abilities are fine, though they could be renamed to 'Property' or something like that so it's more like the item's ability, not necessarily yours

I'd put Item, Abilities, and Spells as the main gimmicks, spread in the first 3 levels. 5th can be a subclass and 6th improves on Abilities, maybe

rich nimbus
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Alright

sly furnace
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That leads to dissonance and Discord between theme and mechanics

rich nimbus
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Then I could take notes from actual magic weapons for properties, such as glowing like a Moon-Touched sword

rich nimbus
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So I basically have to change features 6-20 to fit with it

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And, as the core of the subclasses are item based, that means there is potential for more subclasses similar to Pact Boons, where you could get one for support, one for utility, etc.

rich nimbus
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So here is the general concept of the class now (mainly just to record for my sanity) :
Legends speak of items forged by the Weave itself, gifted to those destined to solve an upcoming problem. Some cultures view the Wielder as an omen while others view them as a "hand of fate" and believe their mission is divine. However, some scholars doubt the existence of Wielders until recently as the type of item linked to the conflict in some way.
The last sentence is more of a concept for the new approach for the subclasses: Tie it into the 4 conflict categories (man vs man, man vs nature, man vs self and man vs society). It also tied into how artifacts, such as Excalibur, tended to be more of a narrative tool with some representative power rather than just a sword

sly furnace
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Note that if you subclasses are based on those, they are immediately limited to only ever being 4

rich nimbus
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Well no, it could be the inspiration, but it wouldn't be locked to just those 4

sly furnace
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I also want to put forward that if the flavor is "the players receive a magic item at level 1 that is essentially a depowered artifact" that will turn off some DMs. Again, not a negative, but something you should be aware of and can decide if that's what they want to do

rich nimbus
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As people could easily take a conflict in a different sense, like looking at genres (like political intrigue) and make something for that. The core of it is that the item has some "worth", as it's an answer to an unknown question. The worth would be decided by the DM and a feature I'm keeping to allow a lack of need for a real issue is "Pass the Power" where you can bestow your power to another. That way, they could have not big conflicts with a Wielder who realizes it was due to just befriending one a few decades ago

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Yes, a key needs a lock, but the lock isn't something immediate (along with trying to infer personal flaws with each subclass, like Man v Society is the Plate as you shut yourself out, but can grow to be a rally point, keeping friends safe rather than avoiding making them in the first place)

rich nimbus
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I was thinking something like an instrument for Man vs Nature, with the idea of having allies that work with you, but then I remembered a common theme for those stories were perseverance. As a result, how about I lay out "virtues" tied to the Tools and make an "Oathbreaker" esk subclass where you can actively loose your Woven Tool where the only potential way to get it back is to prove yourself worthy enough to earn it, so you need to persevere in order to succeed as the subclass will be a handicap of sorts as you lost the core of the class

rich nimbus
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The Wielder: Half Caster based on Kingdom Hearts

rich nimbus
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I'm currently working on a system for Woven Loss, the 4th subclass that requires you to lose authority over your Woven Tool, whether willingly or not, and it would deliberately be terrible as you need to be strong in order to earn your tool back

rich nimbus
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So now I'm tinkering with this with a sledgehammer lol

rich nimbus
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Current plan : Remove Woven Tool. Change it to simply getting a weapon with a different added boost. This weapon starts off with an added property of your choice (thrown, finesse, etc.) and the damage scales like a monk to make keeping the same weapon from start to end make sense in a way

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Maybe add in a drawback to the choice, as a feature I enjoyed in the choice it was based on (KH1), had you make a choice of your strength and your weakness

rich nimbus
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So I've change a lot in the concept. Here's the new class core:

  • Keyblade. You are given a weapon forged from your own heart that you use to achieve your own goals.
  • Arcane Surge. Your connection to the Weave allows you to temporarily boost your combat skills, as an inverse of a rage. (This is what subclasses provide)
  • Natural Sightseer. You get enhancements to your mobility and general survivability, allowing your influence to spread.
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For some reason I now am naming the subclasses after chess pieces

rich nimbus
rich nimbus
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Now subclasses are simply called your Chosen Chain

rich nimbus
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Now I'm adding drawbacks to level 1 that act as an inverse of your choice. What makes sense for a magic related drawback that would actually matter, as a Barbarian or Fighter don't care about spell slots or Spell Bonus/Save DC

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But then again, a wizard wouldn't care about how much damage they do and base AC tends to be forgotten as everybody wears armor or uses stuff like Mage Armor

rich nimbus
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So now I have (for 2.0) levels 1-10 and the Bishop subclass done, based off KH2's Drive Forms

rich nimbus
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Update: Rook subclass (based on Kingdom Hearts 1) and the only feature I'm missing is level 20

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Got the name, just not the actual feature