Ovion Design Workshop; Lazy Afternoon Brews & Simulacrum Dev (Forum Edition)

[sudden moth]

atm, that'll depend on what they get atm

and atm -
Artificer, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard. Choose 2 from
Ranger. Choose 3 from
Bard. Choose any 3
Rogue. Choose 4 from

[abstract sedge]

I think the pure martials (no spellcasting) need some help

As a consolation for lacking spellcasting versatility

I gave fighter, barb and monk 1 extra skill prof baseline. Wotc gave barbs 3 skills in tasha/odnd

[terse tapir]

any

[sudden moth]

Expertise becomes

Expertise 3rd level Bard feature
Your Expertise limit increases by two, and you gain 2 skill points.
At 10th level, your Expertise limit increases by a further two, and you gain 2 skill points.

And Rogue

Expertise 1st level Rogue feature
Your Expertise limit increases by two, and you gain 2 skill points.
At 6th level, your Expertise limit increases by a further two, and you gain 2 skill points.

[terse tapir]

Is there going to be any difference in skill options or points between Martials and Casters, beyond what's already in 5e?

[sudden moth]

atm, just what there is

fighters and rogues having more ASI levels atm, will get a few extra skill points out of that too

[terse tapir]

missed opportunity
martials need more to do out of combat

[sudden moth]

hey, I might, early days yet

in retrospect, I'm thinking I'll drop Savant - it bulks it out more, and 2 levels of each feels better, and it removes my concern about the increased bonus

[sudden moth]

This might need @cyan wasps tender mercies if they're up to it
Or anyone else up on wording that can help.
Cos this doesn't... feel quite right

The table in the shared features section shows your proficiency bonus.
If you are not proficient you apply the bonus in the not proficient column.

There are two levels of Proficiency, Half and Full and two levels of Expertise, Skilled and Mastery.
Each level costs 1 point, and you must buy the previous level before you can buy the next.
If a feature gives you Proficiency in a skill and doesn't state otherwise, it grants Full Proficiency.

You can buy skill proficiencies when you gain skill points, or if you have any skill points you can use them to buy proficiences at the end of a long rest.
When buying skill proficiencies, you can buy up to Skilled.
At 5th level and higher, you can buy up to Mastery in a skill.

Your proficiency bonus applies to many of the numbers you'll be recording on your character sheet:

• Attack rolls using weapons you're proficient with

• Attack rolls with spells you cast

• Ability checks using skills you're proficient in

• Ability checks using tools you're proficient with

• Saving throws you're proficient in

• Saving throw DCs for spells you cast (explained in each spellcasting class)
  Your class determines your weapon proficiencies, your saving throw proficiencies, and some of your skill and tool proficiencies.

  Your proficiency bonus can't be added to a single die roll or other number more than once.
  Occasionally, your proficiency bonus might be modified (doubled or halved, for example) before you apply it.
  If a circumstance suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than once to the same roll or that it should be multiplied more than once, you nevertheless add it only once, multiply it only once, and halve it only once.

[cyan wasp]

If you are not proficient you apply the bonus in the not proficient column.
in everything? or just a subsection like attack rolls/saving throws/ability checks/etc.

[sudden moth]

yes

This is the "new table"

the theory being, after 5/17 levels, you should have... gained something

(this is one of those "pushing the limits of 5e simplicity" things)

[cyan wasp]

i'd probably word the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs (+that last sentence at the top) like so:

When you make an ability check, attack roll, or saving throw and you don't add your proficiency bonus to it, you gain a bonus to the roll as shown on the Not Proficient column of the [Proficiency Bonus Table] for your character level.

When you create a character and choose a class, that class grants you a number of skill points to spend on skills. You can spend these skill points on the skills listed in your class's skill list.

Spending one skill point on a skill improves your proficiency with it, from no proficiency to half proficiency, half proficiency to full proficiency, full proficiency to skilled proficiency, and skilled proficiency to mastery proficiency. You can't improve a skill from skilled to mastery proficiency until your total character level is 5th or higher.

At 1st level, you can have up to one skill with skilled or mastery proficiency. When you reach certain levels, the number of skills you can have with skilled or mastery proficiency increases: at 5th level (up to two skills), 11th level (up to three skills), and 17th level (up to four skills).

When you make an ability check that uses a skill that you have half, full, skilled, or mastery proficiency with, you use the number on the appropriate column of the [Proficiency Bonus Table] for your character level in place of the proficiency bonus.

If you later gain additional skill points, you can spend those skill points when you finish a long rest.

If you gain a feature that grants you proficiency in a skill and you do not have skilled or mastery proficiency in that skill, it improves your proficiency with that skill to full proficiency.

[sudden moth]

didn't just clean up my wording, but WotCs too xD

[cyan wasp]

yeah it's not a secret that i have Opinions™️ about WotC's wordings

[sudden moth]

hey, me too

and rewriting shit to sim + general brain death means I'm getting progressively less sure if my WotC wording is actually accurate for anything outside of pretty standard stuff

I will apply changes and make it pretty in the morning

There's also this

[cyan wasp]

if this is meant for your own thing, i'm completely in favor of rewriting WotC's crap to be a bit less obtuse - like for example calling this entire table "your proficiency bonus" and redefining bits and pieces so you can use a uniform "proficiency bonus" across every feature, spell, feat, etc. so on and so forth

for example, in PF2e, proficiency bonus is a uniform definition that is used across the game - but the way it's calculated is located one step down, where a trained PB is 2 + level, expert PB is 4 + level, master PB is 6 + level, and legendary PB is 8 + level

[sudden moth]

ah, the problem I just noticed in the above (probably because I forgot to include it in the first bit)

you can only have 1 expertise per tier

that's why it's split

Things that give expertise increase that limit

Expertise 3rd level Bard feature
Your Expertise limit increases by two, and you gain 2 skill points.
At 10th level, your Expertise limit increases by a further two, and you gain 2 skill points.

[cyan wasp]

lemme edit that then in a way that seems WotC appropriate

[sudden moth]

👍

[sudden moth]

like most of my stuff, I want to get it 5e compliant, then have a cleaner version for sim, but also making a thing a bit cleaner so long as it's close enough is also good.

(thanks both for so far, and in advance. I will be passing out now.)

[cyan wasp]

...equal to half the number...
WotC hardly uses "amount" - if i had to guess, it's because "amount" can be used to describe a more abstract and unquantifiable group of things but "number" is discrete

Can reduce your proficiency in one skill to gain one skill point. The skill is reduced from mastery to skilled proficiency, skilled to full proficiency, full to half proficiency, or half to no proficiency.
i feel like looping this back to the default method of spending skill points is appropriate

[cyan wasp]

Expertise

3rd-level Bard feature

You gain 2 skill points, and you can have an additional two skills with skilled or mastery proficiency.

At 10th level, you gain an additional 2 skill points, and you can have a further additional two skills with skilled or mastery proficiency.

[alpine briar]

I don't think tying the skill point gained to the class chosen is a good idea.
And would prefer if they took the same amount of skill points each when getting an ASI (while keeping level 1 as it is)

I know Rogues are supposed to be skill monkey but they already have a lot of features catering to that.

[sudden moth]

which, from the thing in quick questions - this could work.
Cos almost everything is 2 skills base, can streamline points a touch with "all classes get 4 points" to spend, and everything gets 2 at an ASI.
Then Bard, Rogue and Ranger just, get some extra points to fuck with.

[alpine briar]

Yeah , said like this that's fair ^^

[sudden moth]

now I want to make a set of sadness subclasses

[uneven pier]

why?

[sudden moth]

because memes

sadness paladin with depression aura.
not sure what do with rogue yet, be sneaky sadness application
nihilism? bard, with songs of sadness
ptsd fighter?
student debt wizard?

[alpine briar]

Rogue : Archetype of the edgy
Bard : College of Ranting
Fighter : ''I never asked for this'' archetype
Barbarian : Path of the burnout
Monk : Way of pity
Artificer : Burry yourself in work
Druid : climate doomer

[sudden moth]

OK so... "I never asked for this" artificer would be pretty sick

Arti sub: Woke up with cybernetics, and you're an artificer now

[alpine briar]

Occultiste : Regreteful pact ?

[sudden moth]

is that what the french call warlock?

[alpine briar]

Yes, sorry

[sudden moth]

sallgood

I guessed right xD

regretful could work.
I was thinking like... "doom scrolling" type of thing, where the patron just, keeps telling them everything awful, but regret could work too. xD

[alpine briar]

I was thinking more druid for that : "Everything is dying, humanoÏd aren't capacable of living in cohesion with nature and any run of the mill dragon can destroy a whole forest

[sudden moth]

climate doom vs societal doom

"The king has removed the rights of kobolds, and did you hear Nitup has invaded another country? The central regions haven't been at war in 30 years!"

then the druid and the warlock can argue about which is more important

[alpine briar]

While the fighter is just plugging they're ears because they just CAN'T right now

[uneven pier]

I mean, School of Divination, except they've seen the end of all things and realise that everything's pointless
School of nihilism

Cleric domain where they're completely reject worshipping a god as they've become disillusioned that there is a higher power that cares about them
Either that or paladin

Misanthropic Ranger: just hunt and kill everyone, none of their lives matter

[uneven pier]

any of these float your boat?

[sudden moth]

as sadness classes, shouldn't they be sinking it 😉

some I can certainly steal from xD

[uneven pier]

that's just the Fathomless Warlock, drowning in their misery

Though you might want to save yourself the trouble with bard. Between Whispers, Tragedy and Requiem, there's plenty of depressive bard archetypes already

[cyan wasp]

tragedy is a goofy sub. it encourages players (the entire party, that is) to make as many ability checks or random attack rolls as possible

[sudden moth]

how's this looking?

[uneven pier]

can crossbows work underwater?

[sudden moth]

yes

spearguns are just wonky crossbows after all

[uneven pier]

thought they were more air pressure than kinetic force

[uncut jay]

Probably my main question is: Do you actually need Half (Proficiency), Full (Proficiency), Skilled (Expertise), and Mastery (Expertise) as actual combinations of Proficiency and Expertise or would they work better as discretely redefined terms so you don't have to constantly dance around determining the category and then subcategory?

I recollect that I considered a set of steps for this named something like:

• Half Proficiency = Amateur
• Full Proficiency = Apprentice
• Skilled = Journeyman
• Mastery = Master

With that, you can entirely get away from dodging between "old proficiency" and your new proficiency, which means that the explanations will be much more concise and easy to manage.

[sudden moth]

part of it, is this isn't a default option, it's a bolton / variant rule.
And so I only want to "rewrite" a bare minimum - so "profs" and "expertise" does that

Half-Prof streamlines the features that use Half-Prof already too

that will likely be a default option in Sim, as a Keyword

[uncut jay]

I'd argue that those explanations may be better suited as a design note or footnote, so the mechanical impact isn't mired up in the translation portion, y'know?

Something like:

The table in the shared features section shows your proficiency bonus.
Depending on your level of proficiency in a skill, ranging from [Unfamiliar to Mastery], you gain a bonus to checks using that skill.

Increasing your proficiency in a skill costs 1 point per [stage], and you [can only buy the stage of a skill that follows the one you have.]

You can [increase] your skill proficiencies when you gain skill points, or at the end of a Long Rest if you have any unspent skill points. When [increasing] skill proficiencies, you can [increase] them up to Skilled, or [Mastery] if you are 5th level or higher.

Your proficiency bonus applies to many of the numbers you'll be recording on your character sheet, such as:

• Attack rolls using weapons you have a [stage] of proficiency with.
• Attack rolls with spells you cast.
• Ability checks using skills you have a [stage] of proficiency with.
• Ability checks using tools you have a [stage] of proficiency with.
• Saving throws you have a [stage] of proficiency with.
• Saving throw DCs for spells you cast (explained in each spellcasting class)

Your class determines your weapon proficiencies, your saving throw proficiencies, and some of your skill and tool proficiencies.

Your proficiency bonus can't be added to a single die roll or other number more than once.
Occasionally, your proficiency bonus might be modified (doubled or halved, for example) before you apply it.
If a circumstance suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than once to the same roll or that it should be multiplied more than once, you nevertheless add it only once, multiply it only once, and halve it only once.

Obviously not perfect, and Mag has some gr8 stuff up above (as mine's just meant to be a wording shift, not a rewording), but grouping the entire thing into "proficiency" and then dictating stages within that, as opposed to grouping everything into Not Proficient, Proficient, and Expert and then dictating that 2/3 of those have subcategories with different names means that you are now fighting hard against WotC's wide-reaching terminology of proficiency.

Then you'd have clarifications on the translations from existing proficency things to your stuff, aka Half Proficient = [Amateur], Proficient = [Apprentice], and Expertise = [Master(y)].

[sudden moth]

I could probably just drop "Full" and make it prof, which'd likely make it clearerer

[uncut jay]

Yeah, then you could honestly just reword Skilled and Mastery to [name pending] and Expertise.

[full quail]

Korsica from High-Fi Rush

Tbf she only got it because an explosion happened in her face

[ornate trench]

Wait, use the MC of Hi-Fi Rush for bard

Rockstar: Woke up with music in your heart, now you have music powers (but literally)

[full quail]

Music player

Dude has a arc reactor but instead it’s an ipod touch

[ornate trench]

Would he be an artificer-y bard, or a bardic artificer? 🤔

[grizzled mountain]

Hey, Ovion, regarding the big maps you talked about today, how do you handle a melee's movement? One that only has 30 feet base. What do you do when they have to spend 5 turns dashing to get to the other side?

What if there isn't many or any cover at all for them?

[sudden moth]

@grizzled mountain Not included is powder and noise rules - which is "if wet, no worky. if raining, disadvantage" and like... half a mile per damage die range hearing "bang", with suppressors making that ~60ft per for the crunchy specifics. (pretty sure I was treating sound like light - loud up to half, quiet past that)

[sudden moth]

as for this - This is the "standard map sizes" I use.
And from paper maps, my "default mindset" is the 1 and 2x1 so 80x120ft and 120x160ft spaces.
And "most" of my combats will take place in that area.
Then when using digital the "full screen" is ~290x160ft
So the larger maps are series of setpieces.
Chokepoints, roads, space between trees.
They can see what's coming for the most part, making choices.

And 1 "tile", only takes 1-2 turns to cross side to side - so even if you're somehow starting at the furthest points from each other, is still only ~a turn or so from melee, and just long enough for short ranged weapons to have disad unless they move up.

So instead of the "default" people seem to have, with a whole map being 40-80ft on the outside, and combats just... not having room to manoeuvre or do much tactical - there's enough room for motion.
And because they are set pieces next to each other, you can daisy chain encounters or set up fallbacks, etc as well as exploration.

When it comes to "no cover" I mean - that's on whoever is throwing together the map.
Theres always rocks and trees.
The single time I had "an open field" was when they teleported in to the middle of regimented combat in a farmers field - and even then they had cows for cover.

[grizzled mountain]

Awesome, thank you!

[grizzled mountain]

I was reading a bit of what you were talking yesterday. I was curious about those instances where you used the bigger maps, something above 300 ft each side.

I was asking specifically about those extreme situations in case I want to try them. Because I really want to see them one day sniping each other. Actually, I was neglecting them in thought, gotta learn about them as well.

People tend to not like when they spend more than two turns "doing nothing" (dashing). Seriously, I don't see how a regular character can cross a 300 ft. field in 2 turns. So, what I want to ask, in your experience when dealing with these big maps, how do you keep the running and ranged players engaged? What sort of feedback have to received from them when they have to deal with this?

If I don't interact with the ranged players, the only thing I can see them doing is taking cover and shooting. I could throw in some cannon so they have to reposition themselves constantly or something. And just as the players are sending in their melee, the enemies will too (but they become an issue when they arrive. If they arrive).

[sudden moth]

The maps are bigger, but like said - series of encounters or moving.
Cos little starts more than 1-2 turns of each group moving towards each other apart, it's not a problem - but they can far more choose angles, choose cover, choose to stay or retreat.

and when it's been a 300ft+ active combat, the whole group is moving.
One side making a fighting retreat, or repositioning, be it the enemy or players.
The players having to adjust based on reinforcements., etc.
It's rarely just running to or from, it's doing things as you go, or dashing to set something up the turn after.

[grizzled mountain]

(Btw, have you considered pinning this message?)

[sudden moth]

na cos it changes periodically xD

ok so that table hasnt in a year

[grizzled mountain]

Fair, since you said you pretty much had it finished

[sudden moth]

but its still mid-reformat

[sudden moth]

mechanically yeah, I've got the numbers down.
Makin it pretty, and filling a few holes is what I was doing.
But Long Covids been kicking my ass, so... like I actually still thought the last changes were a few months back

and I'd streamlined the ammo types then

but uh

apparently a year

[grizzled mountain]

I see

Well, at least you are just in the process of the finishing touches

[sudden moth]

yeah

[sudden moth]

like a biggy here is the modern weapons ammo

originally they had proper ammo values

and were specific named guns - but I shifted to generics

And the "specifics" will be a separate book later.

[grizzled mountain]

Yeah, they are quite cheap

Aren't 20 arrows 1 gp?

[sudden moth]

RAW sure.
But Arrows are wildly expensive, and these tables are HSE

[grizzled mountain]

HSE?

[sudden moth]

Historical Silver Economy

[grizzled mountain]

Oh

Why are arrows more expensive tho? Because reusable?

[sudden moth]

cos arrows cost way more to make

[grizzled mountain]

I see

[sudden moth]

Part of why guns overtook bows and crossbows

[grizzled mountain]

Btw, if I ever decide to run a (let's call it) "trench" battle, could I then ask you for some pointers?

[sudden moth]

Bows need a specific type of wood, with the right grain.
Crossbows need the same for the arms.
Then the arrows and bolts need to be the right type, with correct grain, in long enough with no knots or problems.
Then you need to attach a heat, and fletch it (attach feathers, in a specific pattern).
They were often somewhat reusable, but the biggest cost of any major battle or siege was the Arrows

Guns - you collect some dirt, crush some rocks, boil some piss, mix it all up, dry it then put it in a pipe and fling scrap metal into someone

[grizzled mountain]

There's a reason you graduated as an economancer

[abstract sedge]

i def think int should effect skill profs

it makes the stat way less of a dump

(you do need to make sure classes that use int either lose their base skill profs or have them lowered)

[grizzled mountain]

Like pf does it?

You get base profs and extras based on Int

[sudden moth]

I am back

I'ma rewrite the overview, cos things were changed since the OG

[abstract sedge]

when in doubt, steal from pf2

[sudden moth]

5e Skill Point System

• Skill points got from classes at 1st level and at ASI levels can be spent on the table, at 1pt per bump up to Skilled (below is totals) All classes start with 4 points, Bard, Ranger get +2pts, Rogue gets +4.
• Tool Profs get 2pts each, but must be spent on tools.

Proficiency
Half = 1 point.
Full = +1 (2 total) points.
Expertise
Skilled = +1 (3 total)Points.
Mastery = +1 (4 total)Points.

• Gain 2 skill points when you gain an ASI these can be spent on any skill or tool Proficiency.
• Skill points got from races, and anything else can only be spent on Proficiency levels.
• Gain 1 skill point at creation per point of Int Mod, and first time each increase to int mod.
• All classes can have 1 Expertise skill per tier, the Expertise feature increases number of Expertise skills you can have (gaining 1pt + 1 max Expertise per) - and those points can be spent on any skill as normal.
• Mastery "unlocks" at 5th level? Maybe 11th.
• Variant: Major/Minor Skills - Major Skills cost +1 total (so start at 2, +1 per level)
• Variant: Language as Prof - Languages are Tool skills.
• Variant: No Mastery - Just cant use mastery, caps at Skilled.

@abstract sedge@grizzled mountain rewrite of brief done.

[abstract sedge]

it should reduce baseline skill points from wiz/arti since they get the extra boost from int

[sudden moth]

I considered it, but I'm also fine with them having an extra 3-4 half profs, 1-2 profs, or an expertise on top.
Having it a set 4 for all base made sense once I registered the whole

[abstract sedge]

also, how does this interact with languages?

i feel like tool/languages should be seperate from this

since they are so much weaker

[sudden moth]

Artificer, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard. Choose 2 from
Ranger. Choose 3 from
Bard. Choose any 3
Rogue. Choose 4 from

Is just 3 variants - it keeps it simple.

[sudden moth]

base, they're just the same as any - but atm points from tools, can only be spent on tools (while points from normal can be spent on anything, including tools).
In minor/major, tools (and languages) are minor profs

[abstract sedge]

with the int buff it means arti and wizards become the best skill classes in the game

[sudden moth]

fighters also get a bunch of extra skill points too - cos more ASIs

[abstract sedge]

idk about tying it into asi's, maybe doing it at tiers or every 4/5 levels

pure martials should get more baseline skills then pure casters

maybe at +5 then +4

[sudden moth]

my arguments for feat, is simplicity.
Cos bam

[grizzled mountain]

What does "gaining 1pt + 1 max Expertise per" mean?

I suppose Mastery should unlock at 5th.

Instead of 3rd

[abstract sedge]

yes but that leaves barbs and monks SOL

[sudden moth]

expertise limit is 1/tier.
Cos any class can pointbuy expertiseses.
So something like Bard/Rogue is

Expertise 1st level Rogue feature
You gain 2 skill points, and you can have an additional two Expertise skills.
At 6th level, you gain an additional 2 skill points, and you can have an additional two Expertise skills.

[grizzled mountain]

They shoulda thought of that before being deisgned to use no Int

[abstract sedge]

what?

[grizzled mountain]

I wanted to make a joke

[sudden moth]

This feels like more of a problem with Monk/Barb, that I can address some in sim a bit tbh

[grizzled mountain]

Weren't barbs gifted a feature that gives them extra profs at 5th level? Does that fix it?

[sudden moth]

they mighta been ye

[grizzled mountain]

I can't speak for monk tho. You would have to either change their starting profs or some feature, and that just makes this idea extra... I don't know the word... Nuanced or more work than needed.

As in, I don't think there's a need to worry about it.

[sudden moth]

I'm happy with the core concept and ruleset.
I'm happy with how it interacts with the "core variant skill set" rules I've done too.
And I don't mind art/wis having +5 points across a couple tiers.

[sudden moth]

Barbs thing is Primal Knowledge - +1 prof at 3rd and 10th.
So that's +2 and +2 points for them

monk doesn't get anything, so they could maybe get similar

[grizzled mountain]

Eh, Idk. Give it to Martial Arts and Dedicated Weapon, despite feeling out of place.

[sudden moth]

@cyan wasp just for reference for you, cos you might find it interesting (or not xD)

[cyan wasp]

i remember seeing this, but it still has a few pitfalls i'm not fond of:

• unless FSs are different, having 4 or so FSs doesn't mean much when you can only benefit from 2 (weapon-specific and defense), maybe 3 at a time
• unchanged Action Surge 🤢
• unchanged Indomitable 🤢

crit range being part of the base kit does start to go towards that idea of fighters being the best at attacking - but you and i both know that this is more of a flavor feature rather than something that has a major mechanical impact for the class. i guess that's okay if your intention is to retain the flavor-ness of it

[sudden moth]

ay, but it wasn't aiming to change things much, just bump champion a bit.
and rolling base champion into base fighter, because it was such a non-change to actual output, and it pleased me to do so.
There are certainly a lot more fighting styles to choose from though.

[sudden moth]

yeah, base champion at best +3% dpr, and basically ribbons otherwise is, a thing. xD

[cyan wasp]

i'm also aware you and i have very differing views on FSs, so anything i say in regards to those has to be taken in that context

[sudden moth]

it does ye

and that I like FS's so have expanded them largely

like, Fighting Styles are their own 3-4 page section, expanded

[mellow shoal]

you don't happen to have a listing of all the permutations a sorcery point creating of slots can enable do you?

[cyan wasp]

this?

[mellow shoal]

More like, say 5 Points can equal 1 3rd Level, 1 2nd and 1 1st, 2 1sts with 1 point remainder. etc.

I got started then thought "ovion might have already dont this"

[keen crystal]

Like

20 points can be 10 1st levels, or 4 1sts and 4 2nds, or 2 3rds and 5 1sts, etc

[mellow shoal]

Yeah

[keen crystal]

I feel like theres too many permutations at each level to make a concise chart for it

But then again, its Ovion

[sudden moth]

I do not no. xD

[mellow shoal]

Totally fair. I'll see if i can whip something up.

Was curious towards how much itd compare vs Arcane Recoverys half level Spell Level recovery.

[keen crystal]

Im fairly sure Sorc Points comes out on top

But partly because its also used for other things like metamagic or subclass features

At max Arcane Recovery can recover two 5th levels

Sorc Points can generate two 5ths and a 4th

Arcane Recovery and Sorc points match on 1st level slots, generating 10 at max level (20 SP, 10 AR levels).

Generating as many 2nds, AR can make 5, SP can make 6 and one 1st

As many 3rds, AR makes 3 and one 1st, SP makes 4

As many 4ths, AR makes 2 and one 2nd, SP makes 3 and one 1st

As many 5ths, AR makes 2, SP makes 2 and one 4th

I think those are correct

Trying to make one of each, AR can only make 5th, 4th and 1st. SP can make a 5th, 4th, 3rd and 1st

[mellow shoal]

You've talked about Fighting Styles being one of your most fun design space. I'm curious, do you think much room is opened up there by Subclass limited fighting styles?

[sudden moth]

you mean by ones only available to specific subclasses?
Yeah, that's fine imo - you can do stuff with it.
Obviously, I have moved them all to a single place with pre-reqs by fighting style.
And I'm debating making the entries have fighting style lists in sim, rather than class-based prereqs (only level, or other prereqs) - so that'd lead doubly to that

I dunno that it bumps budget much but it's certainly a viable option

[mellow shoal]

Interesting

Ill be curious to see your Sim fighting style stuff for sure. Feel you've gotten into it as a lever a lot more than most

[sudden moth]

I've kept them the same power wise

but it's more treated like a feat, or spell choice

cos there's lots of overlap

so all the fighting styles are in the Fighting Styles section, next to the Feats section.

atm, each has "prereq, class, class, or class", but I'm thinking of changing it

[terse tapir]

@sudden moth For no reason in particular, how much is 1520GP worth in modern-day USD?

[sudden moth]

1gp is $158.73
so 1520 would be 241,269.60

[sudden moth]

reply ping

[terse tapir]

👍

[bold tendon]

oh huh my general 1 cp = $1 assumption was closeish, nice

[keen crystal]

Yeah thats actually what a lot of people doing calcs end up with as an estimation

[uneven pier]

hey hey @sudden moth

[mellow shoal]

Do you think pistol and musket track as the names that would develop for the weapons in d&d?

I figure you have an understanding of the history there far better than i can quickly research

[sudden moth]

I mean... no not logically.
If for no other reason than "the french don't exist".

[mellow shoal]

Any thoughts to alternatives or think thats kind of a meh game.

[sudden moth]

and even the muskets use as a name is kinda fucky - cos the french just named shit after animals, and "gun is bird" for some reason

[mellow shoal]

Tbf, its probably more musket that stands out yeah.

[sudden moth]

yeah, it's one of those things where you could come up with new terms, but it's just another hurdle for players

[mellow shoal]

Ofc gun is bird 🤦‍♀️

Would rifle fit more for musket? Or feel it just carries a more modern connotation

[sudden moth]

like using so many other terms that don't make sense - the players understand it.
maybe in setting it's an "explosive tube" or some shit

[sudden moth]

yes. it's very french isn't it. xD

[sudden moth]

rifle is called rifle, cos it has rifling which is a specific manufacturing thing so it both wouldn't work, and is etymologically confusing

[mellow shoal]

Dang it.

Anything else more neutral you think?

[sudden moth]

not... really...
like "gun" or "long gun" would be more generic terms, but they are also very broad

[mellow shoal]

Fair

[sudden moth]

there was also the trend of calling it by the mechanism, and the default was the "long gun" version

so matchlock, doglock, fuselock, etc

[mellow shoal]

Oh so like a flintlock would be the long barrel, then flintlock pistol would be the differentiator?

[sudden moth]

oh no, it was just "pistol"

because fuck you

xD

[mellow shoal]

Of. Course. How dare i

[sudden moth]

etymology is a weird place to go

interesting

but half of it makes no sense at all

[ornate trench]

isn't "gun" actually from the root word meaning "sword"

[sudden moth]

oh, for added fun - the pistol could have just been called by the mechanism

and both were

because fuck you more

[sudden moth]

indirectly yes.
from a ballista.
and the ballista was named after a sword.

[mellow shoal]

Thanks. I don't know if this'll bare any fruit. May run it by you if it does.

But Musket just...felt off. And i was right. french bird junk lol

[sudden moth]

a lot of the original names were like "thunder stick" or "thunderer"

[sudden moth]

yeah.
goddamn french. xD
just checked, it's specifically "a male sparrowhawk"

it was originally, a type of heavy arquebus

but then arquebus and musket became interchangeable

and stuff

10/10

have fun!

[uneven pier]

thank the lord they don't

though doesn't some sources say that the term 'musket' say that there's an Italian origin?

[sudden moth]

OK Gishman @young ginkgo while the thought has passed my brain. (or anyone else)
For Sim, people like their gishery.
I am feeling not another full class is the way to go (especially with not-arti, 2-3 psionic classes being core on top of the existing 12) - but leaning towards Gish Subclasses for classes.
What classes do you think should, and shouldn't have gish subs, any ideas for names and broad overviews for such a project?

[young ginkgo]

Huh... Personally, I find that subclasses are simply too limiting, but that's for regular 5e, so it could work. Though relegating (some of) psionics to subclasses seems like the generally better option most of the time. But what classes do you even have?

[young ginkgo]

I'd say that out of the option we have now, Eldritch Knight comes the closest, so I'd probably keep it as the baseline, though I'd change the name

For the rest, I need info

What's the general scope of changes you made to the classes or relevant rules?

[sudden moth]

everything in 5e.
Sim is "5e but cleaned up" - so 98% compatibility, few changes, minor tweaks outside of wording and numbers. - I'll grab the "what is Sim" spiel in a sec.
So:

Barbarian - Berserker + Legally Distinct replacements for PHB/XGE/TCE, Wild Magic Redux, Unnamed Psionic Sub, Unnamed Pact Casting Sub
Bard - Lore + Legally Distinct replacements for PHB/XGE/TCE
Cleric - Life + Legally Distinct replacements for PHB/XGE/TCE
Druid - Land + Legally Distinct replacements for PHB/XGE/TCE
Fighter - Champion + Legally Distinct replacements for PHB/XGE/TCE, Unnamed Psionic Sub, Unnamed Pact Casting Sub
Monk - Open Hand + Legally Distinct replacements for PHB/XGE/TCE, Unnamed Psionic Sub, Unnamed Pact Casting Sub
Paladin - Devotion + Legally Distinct replacements for PHB/XGE/TCE
Ranger - Hunter + Legally Distinct replacements for PHB/XGE/TCE, Unnamed Psionic Sub
Rogue - Thief + Legally Distinct replacements for PHB/XGE/TCE, Unnamed Psionic Sub, Unnamed Pact Casting Sub
Sorcerer - Draconic + Legally Distinct replacements for PHB/XGE/TCE
Warlock - Fiend + Legally Distinct replacements for PHB/XGE/TCE
Wizard - Evocation + Legally Distinct replacements for PHB/XGE/TCE
Maker / Tinkerer (Totally Not Artificer) - Tinkerer / Maker (whichever the main isn't), Totemist, Definitely Not Alchemist, Artillerist
Psion + Subs
Unnamed Half-Psion + Subs

"Simulacrum is my competing standard.
While pretty much every other "not-5e" is not-5e, or 5e-but-something, mine is meant to be "5e-but-5eier".
5e with the serial number filed off, and minimised + errata'd, with a bunch of new optional rules.
The "big changes" are introing a Tag system, replacing Natural Language with "clear text" and bringing class features and spells properly in line with Curve as per the original design documents.
The goal is 98%+ compatibility with 5e content, so anything you could use with the PHB, you can use with Sim.
Allowing you to drag and drop any module, or 3rd party products onto Sim."

so Gish Subclass wise, basically barb, bard, cleric, druid, fighter, monk, paladin, ranger, rogue, sorc, warlock, wizard and tinkerer are fair game

[young ginkgo]

Aight, give me a sec

[sudden moth]

(I'm starting to lean more towards Tinkerer for the class name I think, it rolls of the tongue better)

[young ginkgo]

Aight, if it's just cleaned up 5e, I'll reiterate that you really want a class. It's just so hard to get anything done without half-casting and with a limited power budget, and there really isn't a reason not to have a Ranger/Paladin analogue. I think mine will be pretty close to "5e cleaned up" style once I polish it up a bit.

That being said, here's what I think: (split because lack of Nitro)

• Barbarian: never seen a good Barb gish, the class has so much going on already.
• Bard: Swords and Valor work fine enough I guess, though the limited subclass levels mean you can't do a whole lot here. Valor has solid flavor too, so I'd keep it (and move Swords to Rogue, probably)
• Cleric: I never understood all the armor and weapons being forced upon Clerics. If you want to keep the fans of it happy though, I'd go for a frontline caster instead of an actual gish here - basically just make it tanking-capable and probably use weapons instead of cantrips, while being a normal Cleric otherwise. Forge or War domain, I guess
• Druid: Could do the same as Cleric, but eh. You could do something with gishy wildshape, I guess, though it could be quite complex.
• Fighter: As I said, Eldritch Knight is fine enough as the basic gish option. I'd just name it Spellsword or another of the basic options
• Monk: I think it'd be quite easy to just remake Four Elements. I think you could consider going for loose spell-like effects instead of preset spells (basically just choose shape, choose damage type, riders at higher levels, pay the appropriate cost). It's a good class for gishy options (even more than one), I think, as you can just replace the bonus action attack with a cantrip or something, and Ki is a neat resource.
• Paladin: Well, it's kiiinda gishy as-is, and honestly I don't see how you could make it more so. I guess you could just have Channel Divinity: Quicken Spell, but dunno, maybe better focus on exploiting the Paladin flavor
• Ranger: Definitely a good class to add a gishy subclass or a few. Shouldn't even be particularly hard, as you have half-casting and a solid subclass budget. Not sure how Hunter's Mark would fit in though.

• Rogue: Arcane Trickster is neat, but not really that gishy per se. I guess I'd focus on utility/sneaky magic here, so out-of-combat gishiness in a sense. But if you really want regular combat gishiness, make it a Ninja
• Sorcerer: Probably the best fullcaster option available. The flavor may need to be slightly shoehorned in, but Metamagics can make a lot of stuff work. Quicken exists, but you could make custom ones too, such as Spellstrike or Quicken-but-cheaper-if-you-gish. Workable for sure.
• Warlock: Also a solid option due to the preexisting infrastructure and short rest casting. Hexblade had a lot of problems though, so maybe best just start with a fresh one
• Wizard: While the default arcane flavor is nice, there's nothing to support a gish subclass, and you'll just end up with the Bladesinger problem where you still play like a normal caster. I'd rather do Sorcerer.
• Tinkerer: A solid option. Has arcane flavor and half-casting already, and level 5 in subclasses if you kept that. Could be the kind of gish that puts spells into weapons (Spellstrike), but there are other vaguely gishy options available too, like the power armor one
• Psion: probably pointless if the half-psion exists
• Half-Psion: sounds like a good spot for gishiness, maybe even in the main class, but obviously I don't even know what it does

So, I'd say the top picks are (roughly in order):

• Spellsword which is just Eldritch Knight renamed as the first option (and maybe some ribbon at 7)
• Whatever you can make for half-psion
• Four Elements rework
• Ranger subclass, though at the moment I'm not sure what to do with it or what to call it. Obviously something about nature
• Tinkerer with Spellstrike, I guess it'd be Runesmith
• Valor Bard. Mostly for the cool flavor. There isn't much you can add with how limited the subclasses are, except maybe enabling Str builds and adding Bladesinger's Extra Attack
• Sorcerer. I wish Draconic wasn't taken. I suppose you could do something with crystals maybe, because just Earth is boring
• Warlock. Hexblade is a good name I guess, but I'd strongly consider a rework (specters could go to another subclass), or at least fix the problematic level 1
  And then there's Arcane Trickster and War/Forge Cleric that wouldn't be truly gishy, but are good to have.

[terse tapir]

(funny enough you mention an earth sorcerer, there was a Stone Sorcerer UA defined around defensive features)
(generally agree, Hexblade is an awkard one - it barely has the flavor to exit)

[young ginkgo]

(yeah, I know)

Earth/Stone would make for a neat battlefield controller though

@sudden moth you want a ping?

[sudden moth]

I will read it in a bitty, skimming looks helpful.
I am panel lining a koto kit with an ink pen, and it is tedious

killme

[young ginkgo]

gladly

[uneven pier]

when you say compatible with 5e is that og5e or new5e?

[cyan wasp]

I remember the original intent was compatibility with 5.14e

[sudden moth]

oh, I read that as a meme on the model kit. xD
Yes - 5.14

[young ginkgo]

Ping me if you need more tomorrow

[uneven pier]

Just pinging a quick vibe check to @sudden moth to see how his projects are going

[sudden moth]

https://tenor.com/view/tan-cat-tan-cat-spin-spin-spin-cat-spinning-cat-gif-25835363

[uneven pier]

excellent

[sudden moth]

I finished my model kit

lemme take a picture

well, I still need to paint some gold and black bits, but that's future me's problem

[young ginkgo]

Right, I wanna see the gishes

[uneven pier]

future you will curse your bloodline, you know that right?

[sudden moth]

oh, the gishes will be months off.
Those were for notes so I am prepared, but I want to get core classes done before making my own add ons.
But the notes are helpful to have, because it's not something I'm amazingly invested in myself, so knowing the opinion of someone that is invested will help a heap.

[sudden moth]

na, I just don't feel like doing paint atm.
one day I'll just be "oh, I feel like painting today" xD

[young ginkgo]

It seems like the 5.24e changes to Eldritch Knight are pretty solid too (though partly it's just the removal of old scagtrips)

[uneven pier]

what are those changes? I haven't have a look yet

[young ginkgo]

here and below
#dnd_2024_discussion message

[uneven pier]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeXJqjxP8wI
psst @sudden moth

rate the gun

[sudden moth]

its a neat stopgap in tech.
I always thought they were fun.
I have the mechanism in the to do list for gun add ons when I get to the era.

[uneven pier]

have you thought about combo guns? Like the Savage 24 which is both a rifle and shotgun?

[uneven pier]

Or how about something like the infinivolver? infinite ammo and just spinning it for the fun of it

[sudden moth]

https://tenor.com/view/the-what-what-did-you-say-what-was-that-what-huh-gif-17056556

[uneven pier]

You know, the inifinivolver, never have to reload and it keeps on spinning

[uneven pier]

https://tenor.com/view/viktorbg-gif-25283495

keep spinning

[ornate trench]

@sudden moth where is that math about portable holes storage and how much material can be transported with them en mass?

I might be having some astral dwarves use them to help transport materials to space efficiently

[sudden moth]

the Portable Hole insert
The standard 'insert' is an OD of 6x10ft.
The slots are 12" apart, so each 'level' is 1ft.
It comes default with an air, light and water source, plus an enchantment that spawns 10 goodberries each day.
Includes a 5"x5"x0.5" wooden case to carry the folded Portable Hole in safely.

'Apartment' Option:
You can fit 1 person with a living area, bed + storage and storage space 'level'

alternatively you can fit 2 people, with a double bed instead of bed + storage
optional 'courtesy cover' with a door.
optional Cell Door - heavy duty externally locking cap with door for use as a prison cell.

Steerage and Escape Pod / Life Raft option:
you could alternately fit 5 bunks (each able to fit 1 person + some storage, or 2 people), for group steerage or as an escape pod / life raft.

Cargo:
Well protected and easily shifted cargo can store 222 cubic feet of goods in 3 74 cubic foot containers that slot into the space, or a single 250 cubic foot container, allowing almost 400,000 cubic feet of goods to be transported in a standard Chest.

https://i.imgur.com/a9bkIPJ.png
https://i.imgur.com/B8KiSwg.png
https://i.imgur.com/hL8lMAW.png

[Portable Holes] This can be folded, and kept safe in a box the size of a CD jewel case.
1 loaf of bread sized box of these, is 27 portable holes.
A chest can hold 27 of these, so 729 portable holes.
and so 1 dude, with 1 CD case, can carry a LOT of stuff in a jacket pocket.

If carrying a breadbox,

2 chests can carry as much cargo as a modern container ship like this.

[ornate trench]

https://tenor.com/view/you-da-man-you-the-man-pointing-you-gif-5861126726214556501

[uneven pier]

how much explosives could you fit inside one of those extradimensional containers?

[primal badge]

none, because they wouldbe in anotherplane :x

[red ridge]

7

[uneven pier]

That's the point, I want to see how much you could smuggle inside one of these, like TNT, and if the resulting explosion from inside out would cause an even bigger explosion

[terse tapir]

there's a 9/11 joke here, and I'm not going to be indecent enough to make it.

[uneven pier]

update inspector, please turn in your updates

[full quail]

Enough to make the TSA suspicious of you

[sudden moth]

Trying to decide - should I put classwork here, or in its own thread?

[ornate trench]

I thought you liked to put everything in one?

[sudden moth]

I do, but a full class is big so may be enough for its own

[ornate trench]

I like to split things into their own areas, so that's my vote

but also, what else are you doing here?

Doesn't seem active atm, so might be fine to do it here

[terse tapir]

I'd support it
Ovion Class Thread; Spicy Nacho Flavor

[sudden moth]

not a lot atm, this is true - mostly its still effectively data entry + formatting and staring into the endless void that is my reality, which doesn't take much external input

but, I did actually like the tattoo / body caster concept I made based on uh... fwiffos capitalism caster

as it's an actually unique and interesting baseline for a class, that wouldn't fit as a sub really so, thats neat

and it would work for half/third caster subs too

The rough overall concept is thus
This table is basically "spells known", in the form of tattoos (or body markings of some kind), instead of slots.
You can cast each spell you know once per long rest - including cantrips.
On level up, you get to tattoo more spells on your body, based on the new ones.
You also get Proficiency Bonus amount of "power tattoos" that let you upcast the tattoos by 1 per when you cast them (once per long rest per power tattoo)
Is a Str caster, comes with light armour, simple weapons, maybe versatile martial weapon profs.

Then subclasses would give alternate options (and expanded spell lists), i.e.

• More "power" (and little to nought else) = +1 1st at 3rd, +1 2nd at 6th, +1 3rd at 9th, +1 4th at 12th, +1 5th at 15th (this more than 10-11 total levels extra, and might want to be every 4 instead of 3 levels, but might be OK if that's the bulk of the subs features)
• More options (with some funky features) = +1 1st in tier 1, +1 2nd in tier 2, +1 3rd in tier 3, +1 4th in tier 4, and has some extra features with it.
• More Versatility (with little else) = lets you "trade out" known slots with extra lower level ones - so at 3rd or so, can give up 1 second, to take ~3 more 1st level, in tier 2 you get to trade out 1 3rd, for 5 combined levels in 1st+2nd, in tier 3 you get to trade out 1 6th, for ~9 combined levels of 1st-5th, and in tier 4 you get to trade out an 8th, for +12 combined levels of 1st-7th. + some ribbons
• Bonk = One doesn't get extra spells, but gets martial weapon prof and medium armour. In tier 3 they get heavy armour. Also some partial-martial features.
• More burst, less versatility = focus harder on upcasting - maybe capped at PB levels of upcasting per spell cast, but gets 2-3xPB power tattoos, and some ribbons.
• Cast Fist = unarmoured defence, buffed unarmed strikes, and pseudo-monk features

[sudden moth]

forgot the table

[wanton cave]

Ah, I've also been faffing about with something like this for the last few days.

[terse tapir]

link?

[wanton cave]

Well it's in a google doc with a bunch of other random homebrew.

[terse tapir]

Cntrl C + V into a different one

[wanton cave]

Partially I rewrote my older concept along the lines of our mutual discussion, but I started developing some more flavorful concepts of the specializations too, rather than the skeleton.

It's not really done enough for review though.

[terse tapir]

fair enough
just wanted proof of a brew when you'd said you'd made one

[wanton cave]

Doc on phone be hassle

But I will tey

Tey

Dammit, try

https://docs.google.com/document/d/12W5pCR5zZSA_D9jo72qfZnYOSWW9XIMTGXth4-leX3o/edit?usp=drivesdk

There

I thought the concept of the upcast reservoir that came up in our discussion was neat, but if you cut out the ability to integrate scrolls and craft more spells from my first iteration you basically end up at this anyway.

In short, ovion, I think I'm a tad ahead of you on this idea. It may be weird if we both start developing it in parallel.

Could potentially be viable to do a collab, but I suspect you're overseas which would be a hassle.

[terse tapir]

I think Ovions is more extreme than yours.
Both try to have the same flavor.
Can't tell which is better until they get more fleshed out, but must say, respect the Str casting.

(Str casting is one of those things with no right to exist flavor-wise that works great mechanically, theoretically ofc)

[wanton cave]

It does sort of make sense in this context, and fills in for when cantrips run out.

[terse tapir]

Charisma is the flavor option, for that matter

or Intelligence? If you're a studying type.

[wanton cave]

Because of the aesthetics, fair.

Or the scriptures.

But it's nice to get to explore the str space and I make a decent case.

Will prob keep writing on it in my general homebrew doc tho, so that other one's not gonna update visibly.

[terse tapir]

yes, I agree

ok

[wanton cave]

For now tho, I need to sleep.

[sudden moth]

yessum, I mentioned your name for the inspo, and it's where I did my concept off that 😉

[sudden moth]

they started as con! xD

[wanton cave]

Yeah that did not work out.

Even if it made sense flavor wise.

[sudden moth]

I did forget to mention this is a Str caster though

oops

xD

[wanton cave]

Again tho, sorta messy if we both sit and dev the same core.

[sudden moth]

yeah, and I'm working out from this alternate casting thing, and a set of sub concepts, while you have a concept you're working from.
certainly gonna be different, with similiarities (cos my concept is built of working on your things theory) - but I liked this specifically, and not hooked by the rest brain worms wise

will be interesting to see the similarities and divergence though

[wanton cave]

I gave up on the money aspect, so we're more similar now than you'd think.

[sudden moth]

ah, fair

well, it'll be my first full class, cos I keep procrastinating on classes.

not like I have multiple psionic classes to make or anything

nope

[wanton cave]

Well, I'll just have to finish mine first then.

Haven't tried doing a full class before, but have done subclasses.

[sudden moth]

ay

done tons of everything else

and about... 15? subclasses or so

though at least a dozen of those were "just champion fighter" so

iunno how much they count

[wanton cave]

I have one completed subclass and like two incomplete ones. And some spells and weirder homebrew. Entire monster races in a homebrew campaign.

Well. Two.

I like my space mountain tho.

[sudden moth]

check this shit out. xD

[wanton cave]

Yeah those are warrior like.

My stuff was a custom warlock patron type, and then I had an odd fixation paladin...

[sudden moth]

14 "this is actually just champion fighter"
then I did a nuchampion for fighter (which ate regular champion).

then uh... a healing barbarian and... something

I can only find the "heal allies by punching them in the face" and "artificer armourer+" so

maybe not anything else

so arguably only 2, and 2 reworks / expansions xD

[wanton cave]

I have this thing I need to finish.

Paladin: Oath of Fixation

The oath of fixation represents a connection to someone or something in particular. Sometimes known as keepers or devotees, a paladin who swears this oath possesses an intense connection to a particular place, object or person. They hold it in the highest regard, idealizing it and dedicating themselves to safeguarding it, and can often be blind to its flaws.

Paladins of this ideal are not always subservient to what they idealize, but they invariably go to great lengths to protect it. Some are stalwart defenders or bodyguards. Others embark on quest after quest, seeking to put an end to dangers by more proactive means or to bring doom upon those who have wronged their wards. Others still stand vigil in tombs or ruins, guarding their fallen ideals long after everyone else is gone, or embark on great crusades in the name of their fallen martyr.

There's more, but space.

[terse tapir]

Isn't this just Oath of Devotion 2: Electric Boogaloo?

[wanton cave]

Kind of, but it was a lot more laser-focused on the specific thing.

[sudden moth]

did you have a thread btw

[wanton cave]

Did not, no.

I mostly do homebrew in private docs.

[terse tapir]

speaking of classes, they're the one thing that's consistently intimidated me
I have several subclasses, 100 spells, a few feats, a background and some long-abandoned magic items, but not a single class or part of one

[mellow shoal]

Sounds as though you mostly have the plan for the overall structure with the Spellcasting for your tattoo class.

Core mechanic is the main thing you'll be looking for.

[keen crystal]

Ovion just wondering, how do you price mithral/adamantine armor/weapons compared to base price? If you dont sell them in your games, at least as if you did

[sudden moth]

iirc mithral/adamanting is about equal to uncommon cost + value of base item

[uneven pier]

@sudden moth question: what's the biggest calibre for a victorian era firearm?

[sudden moth]

handheld?

[uneven pier]

technically

but yes

[uneven pier]

Planning on having a Goliath be wielding an absurd sized gun and, given the period that I'm going for, was considering my options

[sudden moth]

hmm

I mean, victorian era is mid 1800s through 1900 basically

the american civil war was a victorian era conflict

[sudden moth]

for wow factor, I wouldn't go with largest - which is probably along the lines of an elephant gun or double rifle, but a maxim

a goliath man-portabling an air cooled 303 maxim would be a hell of a thing

[uneven pier]

why not both?

[sudden moth]

mostly due to weight and ammo.
Gonna need to carry 2-3 belts for that maxim.
Could carry a cut down .577 carbine as a sidearm though?

Snider–Enfield .577 carbine

[uneven pier]

like, how much are we cutting it down to?

[sudden moth]

I mean, that is cut down, so likely not more than that?
This is the full size one

maybe take off the stock

[uneven pier]

ah, i see

[sudden moth]

" A .577 Snider cartridge, a Zulu War–era rolled brass foil .577/450 Martini–Henry Cartridge, a later drawn brass .577/450 Martini–Henry cartridge, and a .303 British Mk VII SAA Ball cartridge. "

[uneven pier]

At that point, it's a very powerful and very big pistol

on another note, have you done anything with different types of rounds? Like expanding/hollow point bullets?

apparently such bullets go back a-ways

[sudden moth]

I haven't done much with those yet no.
probably should have xD

and yeah, late 1800s you had the earliest hollowpoint style rounds

though it wouldn't really be on rifle rounds

mainly heavy pistol rounds to reduce weight iirc?

[uneven pier]

either way, I believe that they were banned during that period for inflicting wounds that dealt more harm than what was deemed necessary in times of war.
However, we are not bound by such conventions in dnd

[sudden moth]

ay

hollow points are probably just like

+1 damage or something tho

[uneven pier]

I'd think +2, at least against non-constructs

[sudden moth]

+1 is 1/4 the health of a commoner ~

[uneven pier]

they're designed to expand when entering the body, I don't think constructs are made of matter that bullets can easily penetrate as flesh

[uneven pier]

I'd say it's accurate then

[sudden moth]

ye, its something easy to forget

commoner is 4 (1d8) hit points.
adventurers are just coked off their tits

I think AP ammo will be +1 to hit only too fwiw

[uneven pier]

what about mercury exploding rounds?

[sudden moth]

day of the jackal was such a bad film.
But I'd just run em as explosive bullets.

though maybe 1d4? mercury fulminate wasn't that explosive

[uneven pier]

question still stands, even if the source is dubious. Though I've read the book, so I can't comment on the film, or the TV series

[sudden moth]

oh watch the film for sure.
it's awful in hilarious ways.
Everything just jumps about, nothing makes sense and the only reason the case is solved is a psychic detective, who I would watch an entire TV show of.
but it is so bad. xD

[uneven pier]

to be fair, it sounds faithful to the book. The detective did just take a hunch that the Jackal was posing as a veteran to smuggle the rifle into their nest and it proved right

[sudden moth]

basically everything the detective says is a hunch with no basis in reality, that he just guesses and is right

but the actor makes it

[uneven pier]

Still, final set-up:
Primary: portable 303 maxim
Secondary: short stock Snider-Enfield .577 carbine

And I guess melee would be the equivalent of a fireaxe. no reason why, it seems to fit

[sudden moth]

fair

if you want me to stat the maxim and SE carbine, ask tomorrow, I need to go pass out before the codeine wears off and I have to take more codeine to sleep

on the plus side, it does seem to be winding down, but it's all just uncomfortable enough to not sleep at night 10/10 makes perfect sense I guess

[uneven pier]

by all means in your own time, I'm in no rush for it yet

[sudden moth]

my default for Sim atm is keeping hybrid UASI - where everything has the +3 racial ASI, and everything has a suggested stat for race (and subrace)

but I kinda want to expand it with negatives and shit too cos... it makes it more interesting

like a half-giant should be fine with +3str and -1int or something like that (as an initial asspull)

or like, +2str, +2con, -1 int

cos they are naturally stronger/tougher, and naturally find book learning harder

just get a touch more variety and give/take in there

[terse tapir]

didn't WOTC delete Negative ASIs? I expect there was a reason for that.

[ornate trench]

I think it was because racism

[sudden moth]

they did.
I hold in part it's because they were cowards

and cos they were like "we're getting accused of racism, and we keep being racist, so we'll do this"

[ornate trench]

to say it longer, a race that is naturally smarter than others is kinda weird, and a race that's naturally stupid but is also based on irl ethic groups makes some people angry

negatives also prevent certain race/class combos

like, an orc with -2 int will never be a wizard (unless for a meme)

[sudden moth]

it can be sometimes yeah.
Though I still see ASIs as marking natural aptitude - it's why I don't advocate for caps, and racial ASIs are baselines

[ornate trench]

TBH, I am kinda a fan of the '24 approach of ASI being tied to backgrounds

tho certain races having an innate "+1 X but -1 Y" could be neat

[primal badge]

I mean, it just moves the pbm around if it is for build purpose

[terse tapir]

y'know, this is funny cause' I think you're the one that called me out when I said negative asis had to be racist last time
and that turned into a discussion about really, it's cause it helps min maxers

[ornate trench]

that too

[sudden moth]

but, with that, I feel like the best way to run it is maybe - UASI (+3 in +2/+1) with suggested, then the pro/con being a "feature".
Like the above asspull example half-giant would be UASI suggested +2 str, +1 con (or +1str, +2 con) and, +1 str, - 1 int
Does that track?

[primal badge]

like, if I want to play a wizard who was a soldier, the background will not help me at all, even if it doesn't give me negatives

[ornate trench]

That's one of the porridges that I did like, UASI is the way to go imo

it helps encourage more builds

[sudden moth]

yeah

[terse tapir]

'14 backgrounds aren't meant to do much
you can pick whatever, not much will change

[sudden moth]

as mentioned before, I get UASI, and I don't hate it - I just hate it was made the only, and they removed the default ASIs.
I was 100% OK with UASI being a universal rule that replaced ASIs - not a fan of removing them and it just being UASI.

[ornate trench]

I also think its fine to keep recommended ASI

[uneven pier]

having options is cool, you know?

[terse tapir]

I'm conflicted on UASI, cause' I think it's a boon for min maxers and a negative for flavor, but on the other hand, I'm generally supportive of WOTCs racial changes, for the gameplay and stuff

[ornate trench]

but... tbh... recommended ASI probably should sit in classes?

[sudden moth]

but yeah - does that make sense for the above:
UASI (suggested) + Feature that is equal +/- (or if eating other racial budget, no negative maybe)

[ornate trench]

like, ASI default on races do kinda encourage a planet of hats mentality

which is not great

[terse tapir]

true

[ornate trench]

ASI default on background/class, that just makes sense narratively/mechanically

[sudden moth]

That doesn't make entire sense to me tbqh - they already have a recc in the stats they want.
But Racial ASI (hell, might be best changing the name too) to me as I said, is potential, and natural aptitude.
It makes sense an orc or giant or whatever is going to be a bitter stronger by default, and a bit less apt to book learning.
Or a cat is more dexterous by default.
Makes sense an elfen race might even be weaker by default, but more apt to book learning.
But they can all work towards the same maxes - all to 20.

suggested ASI from a background could make sense as an option as it represents where you have improved in your past job/lifestyle, though still feels a bit... funky as logically that's where your starting points going represents too.
suggested ASI from class, well, thats really represented by the ASIs you get doing the class I think.

doubly so, sim needs to keep racial, cos .14 has racial xD

[ornate trench]

So, the reason I think class ASI is OK is simple. What will you spend the ASI you get on? Probably improving the stats that make you stronger. And those would probably be the ones your class use

It cuts out all the middlemen and simply jumps to the actual mechanics

You are a Barbarian, you probably want STR/CON. You are a Bard, you probably want CHA

[primal badge]

tbh I think these should be just part of stat gen

like, pointbuy+asi

[ornate trench]

If you are a tiefling, an acolyte, a fisherman, a human, none of that matters

[primal badge]

no need to link it to anything, if you're going to let people schoose where to put it anyway

[ornate trench]

and yah, just making it part of chargen could work

[sudden moth]

kobold press just rolled it into stat gen yeah.
higher points / +3 on rolled type stuff.

[primal badge]

except to what it's going to be used : statgen

or split it around everything, like PF2 : some from ancestry (suggested or free), some from background (half-free), and a boost to your class key stat.
But in the end I think statgen in statgen, so if you're going with free choice anyway, there is no reason to tie it to another aspect of character creation (and it allows for more functional "wierd" character concepts like an orc wizard, or an hermit barbarian, or a former soldier going for a magic class)

those example would have trouble working properly (not to say impossible, but it will become a bit more difficult) if stats were predetermined by your choice or race, background, or class. so either you spread it to make it possible to work, or you just cut it from narrative aspects of the character.
(or you assume that your character concept will have statgen consequences and don't pretend otherwise)

[uneven pier]

Personally, I see all three as being potential options of what the player wants to focus on for their character.
If they want to focus on the fantasy of being the race, pick the Racial ASI
If they want to focus on the backstory of their character, pick the Backstory ASI
If they want to focus on the power fantasy of the class, pick the Class ASI
It's options, you know

[flat ocean]

Hey Ovion, how hard is it to get a combat mount that can still do stuff?

Specifically I'm trying get a dire wolf mount that can still bite people

The mounting rules are a pain in the ass though

[primal badge]

you'd need an intelligent mount iirc.

[flat ocean]

How intelligent to get around the controlled/independent mount rules?

[primal badge]

I think it was around the mark for greater steed ? (the spell brings the intelligence of the mount up to a minimum, so I guess it is for that purpose)

[keen crystal]

@sudden moth maybe you should write some noise rules for your firearms

[uneven pier]

gun go bang, silencer make smaller bang

[red ridge]

what if bang underwater

[keen crystal]

@sudden moth hmm some noise rules for your firearms would be great

[sudden moth]

yeah, probably would be wouldn't they

now I need to go find my notes and write stuff

[sudden moth]

lol imagine being able to find any of your fucking notes

[red ridge]

You forget they existed and you stumble upon them 3 years later

Right after you bullshit some lore on the spot for the players and invalidate that far superior writing of the lost notes, for info once dumped cannot be undumped

[delicate surge]

Couple questions; what math did you use for level 10 spells, and what is a mythic item?
-# also can i steal the concept of a "mythic" rarity

[sudden moth]

• I used the +x between prior levels to + a level an appropriate amount.

That said, I have no current rules for using 10th level spells, outside of "Old Magic" items and spells that cast 1 level higher base, with drawbacks - and are setting specific.

• Mythic is post-legendary - replacing artifact which is now a tag (meaning you can have simple, through mythic rarity Artifacts) which matches what an artifact really was in the first place (a mark of unique and noteworthy, over any real marker of ability)
• Yes - feel free to use Mythic, and Simple. Even better if you follow the tables, I made em to be used, and the more the merrier!

[delicate surge]

I am working on a supplement that deals with "Tier 4+" stuff, with draft and concepts for a hypothetical divine tier (though I have no assurance of balance, so it's still conceptual), and knowing how other people handle and interpret that kinda stuff is very handy!

[uneven pier]

quick question: The equivalent of a steampunk elephant gun known as 'The Busterd', yea or nay?

[sudden moth]

wut

[uneven pier]

name-wise I mean

mainly used against armoured foes

so kinda like a mix of buster and another word

[sudden moth]

I mean, whatever floats your boat

[uneven pier]

just wondering if it floated other people's boats as well

you know, 'cause it's not going to be just for me, others are going to use it

[sudden moth]

in broad terms, it migth get fucky with bastard swords if folk are into that

[uneven pier]

not that kinda setting for such large swords, since large guns would be in fashion

though I am also experimenting with the concept of casual armour

[young ginkgo]

Bastard swords aren't particularly large

[uneven pier]

over a meter long in length, not the best for fighting tight urban cities

[young ginkgo]

I guess? But it's still not that big as swords go, and apparently it's the precursor to the rapier, which I imagine would fit in quite well

[uneven pier]

weapons that can jab probably have a greater degree of success in confines than weapons that you have to swing first, less space required

[young ginkgo]

Sure, but you can do both. Not saying it'd be my first choice, but I imagine it could still be present in some fashion, for example among some frontiermen

also, Ovion right now:

[sudden moth]

?

bastard swords are just a flavour of longsword ultimately

hand and a halfers

but using it as a separate thing is oddly popular

[uneven pier]

I was wondering why they're considered exotic weapons in older editions if they're just long swords

[sudden moth]

🤷

[young ginkgo]

well, they're technically one-handed with a longer handle, so not a "true" longsword

might be the truest hand-and-a-half sword we have though - longswords get called that, but they're typically too heavy to wield with one hand for too long

[sudden moth]

thats the fun part, what you're saying is true - what adrane said is true.
so's about 15 other things.
It's one of those ones that might not even have been a name at a time, or was multiple different things.
The dumbest one I've seen is "you had to give up your shield to wield the hand and a half sword, so you had no family crest, making you a bastard" xD

another one was something like "german swords made in france"

[young ginkgo]

Yeah it's not like swords always fall neatly into a single type, obviously

But I'd say "one-handed, but with the option to two-hand" is a solid classification, especially when talking about a game

[uneven pier]

on another topic. I'm also trying to come up with something akin to casual armour. Basically armour that's not full armour but still offers protection in the vital areas and can be worn about somewhat more comfortably than full armour. So far I'm not having much luck in putting it down on paper as I'm probably not got the right terms.
Mechanics wise, how would adding a 'casual' tag to certain armours effect it do you reckon?

[sudden moth]

think I have as "improvised" - which is AC11

any light armour that is very light, under-clothes, or like, leather jackets and stuff

[young ginkgo]

Could just be "concealed"

[uneven pier]

Maybe 'concealed' would be the most fitting term, if I were to go that route. But the idea is that, in this setting of mine, there is a peculiar line between the civilised and the barbaric where armour is considered part of fashion as well as protection in urban setting. It's a bit of a headache trying to figure it all out, especially since its in a steampunk setting, where armour. such as full plate, are no longer used.

Like breast plates along with tweed jackets, and armoured top hats, though that last one might be too ridiculous. Like what's the point of an armoured top hat?

weaponised flat tops on the other hand

don't suppose there're any suggestions ya'll could throw my way or is this a little too beyond the pale?

[young ginkgo]

well now I definitely think you need to have bastard swords in there

but I suppose you could just redefine "light" to mean that kind of armor?

[uneven pier]

theoretically, if I want to take the easy route. But I do want to experiment with this idea a little

[sudden moth]

Cuirassier

[uneven pier]

the thicc armour?

[sudden moth]

no

I was thinking the french noble cavalry

fancy clothes, with a cuirass

literally "clothes with breastplate"

[uneven pier]

I think you typed the wrong cuirassier then, 'cause all I'm seeing is this armour set

looks a little goofy when they're just on the stand

look at this goblin man

ah, like this?

was there much benefit for them wearing a breastplate like this?

[young ginkgo]

Well, it goes over all the vital organs, so I'd assume so

[keen crystal]

Ovion, was wondering, do you have any calcs on how much Damage Threshold a player can have without breaking the game much, but still have DT be functional/relevant?

DR functions later in the game even with low numbers because it just reduces it wholesale, even if just a bit. It may not be as relevant, but it still works. DT if its too low just stops functioning at some point. At least thats how I think of it

Also, noise rules for firearms

[sudden moth]

yes

In theory these should be fine by item - which should translate to PC by tier too

[keen crystal]

Huh wait... you have +1 AC as Uncommon, when its Rare in 5e. Did you change that in your calcs?

[ornate trench]

+1 shields are uncommon, I think, so it applies there?

[flat ocean]

I asked in quick questions but I'll also put this in here, for some reason I feel like something related has been done here

In universe I assume magic users are likely targets so what would be a clean way to thematically imply being a mage to get mechanical results?

[keen crystal]

Mmm right, tho this only applies to shields yeah? And all other armor bases off +1 AC being rare?

Tad complicated I guess

[sudden moth]

I did not!
By the creation rules, +1 AC is == +1 Hit and Damage.
But, in practice WotC made all light, medium, and heavy armour start at rare because?

I did expand on it in my new version of the table in Sim-Notes

[keen crystal]

Hmm right Cloak of Prot also is +1 AC. So yeah its just armor, strange

[sudden moth]

(That said, I need to go and remake this in 5e notes, because it's technically redundant in Sim Notes, because in Sim mundane items have rarity, and it stacks with magical)

[keen crystal]

Also Ovion

firearm noise rules

[sudden moth]

I will slot it in my brain plan today, hopefully I can get there. xD

[keen crystal]

Ovion, Rarity of a Longsword with Finesse?

[sudden moth]

I think uncommon, but I'll check in a minute

[young ginkgo]

With Rapiers existing, I'd honestly call it Common

[ornate trench]

Make it a Mithril Weapon

[keen crystal]

That was initially what Mithril is in my materials list but I changed it so its just NonHeavy gets Light and now Elven Masterwork is what gives NonHeavy Finesse

Theres a general Masterwork thats +1, and then some race specific ones (made by that race, or anyone that learned from that race, but can be used by anyone)

[sudden moth]

this took so long to fill out, even with transposing

[uneven pier]

Y and N I can understand, but M? What's M?

[sudden moth]

maybe

[uneven pier]

how are you basing your data? Like, what source is telling you that a Halfling and a Gnome can't cross?

I mean, dragons are a given, though I'm surprised that dryads have a near cross rate as well, but to stop suddenly at lizardfolk?

[young ginkgo]

Much as I love nerdy stuff, I need to ask - why?

now make it non-symmetric, tigons and ligers are different after all

[sudden moth]

this is from the BoEF

[sudden moth]

shiggles.

[uneven pier]

BoEF?

[sudden moth]

the 3.5 splatbook, Book of Erotic Fantasy.

it's only at most, 1/3 what you'd expect

[young ginkgo]

I absolutely do not wish to know more at this point

[uneven pier]

ah

[sudden moth]

they could have phoned it in, but they put in actual effort

so it's mostly tables, charts, and info (as was 3.5's custom)

[uneven pier]

In that case, I don't think I want know their thought process around certain decisions

[sudden moth]

It's not actually anything bad!
I just went and looked - its that dwarves and gnomes genetics make them very hard if not impossible to crossbreed with, so it's mainly "magical creatures" that have a chance to

[oak relic]

I mean, you shouldn't have to feel like you have to justify it, it's interesting world building! Speaks to the metaphysics of how come!

[sudden moth]

I mean, it's 3.5 and full in the weeds - I knew there'd be a reason xD

I just hadn't bothered looking before

[oak relic]

Hah, fair dues.

[uneven pier]

kinda curious of what a Dragon/nymph crossbreed would look like, given that they can apparently cross with everything

or it could a euphanism for a person's role in a relationship
e.g. "So which one is the dragon and which one's the nymph?"

[sudden moth]

OK so - Dryad + fey = 50/50 chance it'll be pure dryad, or pure race of father.
It states non fey will be halfdryad, halffathers race, but the pregnancy section doesn't cover more than that...
now to see if there's another section...

3.5 books are nothing if not dense data wise.

[uneven pier]

I miss that period

[sudden moth]

I am going to add "appearance" to my list of optional stats thoguh.
Make it extra clear it isn't just cha.

Like, I always do "fade to black" for sexual stuff in my games, but it's all a thing that would exist in world building, and its fun to go over.

[oak relic]

Makes a "refuge of x" versus a "refuge of y" interesting, if they can't fully acclimate to the host locale due to a physical lack of interbreeding.

[sudden moth]

(for the stuff I'll distill from this for "sharing" it'll certainly be cut down some for sharing, but atm - copying wholesale for the baselines)

there's also.... Kinks and Cantrips which looks a lot more subtle, and is in the same vein

[oak relic]

Huh, I wonder the advanced kinks are

[sudden moth]

These from what I can tell so far, are designed in a way you can use them entirely non-sexually for most of the content

[sudden moth]

just more-stuff

[oak relic]

ooOOOOooo, interesting

[oak relic]

I see an opportunity to glib, i'm taking it!

[sudden moth]

Delve further into the world of kink in a tabletop RPG context with a sequel to Kinks & Cantrips that is compatible with 5e and beyond.

The first Kinks & Cantrips was an introduction and a love letter, always intended to be consumed by those curious about kink. Because of this, a great many topics and desires were left on the cutting room floor. Degradation of most kinds, foot fetishism, the utilization of bodily fluids, financial domination, consensual non-consent and so much more still have their story waiting to be told. The time has come to once again crack into them, both as a means of education and a celebration of those who partake in these kinks.

That extra word in the title - Advanced - is not simply there to describe the kink topics the book covers but also the depth of gameplay within the material. As this book was written for those wishing to dive deeper, the rules have been written to allow more meaningful choices and customization. This extends from class options and feats all the way to spells, optional rules, and even the monsters the book presents.

There is of course more of the staples as well. Bondage, pain, pleasure, domination, submission, humiliation, all of it is fundamental to the kink experience and Advanced Kinks & Cantrips includes many highly requested extensions of those ideas. You need not have a penchant for extreme or niche desires to enjoy the content of the book.

With all of that in mind, let's take a more detailed look of what you can expect to find in Advanced Kinks & Cantrips.

[sudden moth]

entirely fair xD

[oak relic]

That extra word in the title - Advanced - is not simply there to describe the kink topics the book covers
Shit, they anticipated the bit before I even made it.

[sudden moth]

And the kickstarter blurb from the first one:

In my experience, if one were to draw a venn diagram of kinky people and TTRPG players, you would be left with something very nearly a perfect circle. On top of this, TTRPGs have a storied history of allowing people to explore themselves via taking on the shape of different genders, orientations, and morals. Add these two things together, and it was high time that someone made a compendium of TTRPG content that spoke both to seasoned kinky individuals and those curious explorers who are delving into themselves.

Some of you may be wondering "what is kink?" I'll let the book's opening words explain: kink is many things to many people and is often very hard to define. Wikipedia, the most holy of annals, just kind of gives up and defines it as any sexual practice which is seen as outside “norms”. These practices can range from BDSM to roleplaying a fantasy about a 1950s candy salesman seducing a housewife. In short, it can and does encompass a wide range of desires, with the only limitation being its relation to sexuality.

This book contains over 210 pages of D&D 5e compatible material for a whole slew of kinks. Ranging from bondage to gentle domination, from A/B/O to teratophilia, from asexuality to polyamory, there's something for everyone and a whole lot more to discover.

[oak relic]

Seppuku appointment in 5 days.

In my experience, if one were to draw a venn diagram of kinky people and TTRPG players, you would be left with something very nearly a perfect circle.
That in my experience is carrying a lot of weight, jesus christ.

Gotta ask, completely random question reading this, infact I'll just look it up.

[sudden moth]

hm?

but yeah - whether I'll use K&C or not? Iunno.
I didn't back the first kickstarter, cos it was just a PDF, and I like hardcopy.
The second kickstarter was £69 for 2 hardbacks, and PDFs so, they'll sit on the shelf with my copy of BoEF

[oak relic]

Alright, more north than I expected, but it is west coast. Hunch was correct. Anywho, continuing to read.

[oak relic]

Shit, is that market average, because that feels like a lot?

[sudden moth]

that's pretty reasonable

[oak relic]

Right, 2 hardbacks, duh

[sudden moth]

ye

most of this sort of thing is ~£30-50 a book

This remains one of the funniest images in the whole book.
From the "Harem Protector" prestige class.
His skillset is resisting seduction.
His job is guarding other people having sex.
And this is his picture.

[oak relic]

Kek.

Respect to my mans, dude looks baller.

Wait, they just, have irl images for, alrighty, interesting.

[sudden moth]

ye, he has a job, and he is doing it.
professionals have standards

[oak relic]

insert sniper copypasta here

[sudden moth]

yes.
And most had a decent amount of effort put in.
A few are just "well this could be anything" glamour shots, but most they tried

[oak relic]

I admit they might put effort into it, but when i'm reading brew, my mind just goes "oh who the fuck is this?", you know?

[sudden moth]

ay

this was a proper production though - by white wolf no less.

and the leads are pretty prolific names

[oak relic]

Interesting...

[sudden moth]

there is a spell to give the target crabs

[oak relic]

Based beyond measure.

I kneel.

[sudden moth]

Also - "Engorged Gait" makes peoples feet swell, so it's hard to walk.

[oak relic]

I mean, they mentioned it in the advanced section, i'm not surprised.

[uneven pier]

and a counterspell for another spell, neat

[oak relic]

True, which is very, 3.5e weedy, do approve.

I love those little tech parts.

[sudden moth]

hm?

[oak relic]

Of advanced having foot fetishism

[sudden moth]

oh

this is BoEF

[oak relic]

Oh, nevermind then

[sudden moth]

the K&C stuff was a tangent.
Past this post is back to BoEF.
I do technically have the playtest PDF of AK&C, but I haven't looked at it really yet, I prefer the hardcopy.
The only reason I'm not using my physical BoEF atm is I cba cleaning my area, and alcohol rubbing my hands / getting gloves, cos my copy is mint in a case, so gotta be careful with it

Converting Engorged Gait to 5e is 100% on my to do list tho

no, there is nothing about dryad / dragon hybrids in the book

[oak relic]

Well, it's a duty to the world that 5e foot fetishists need to blessed with options.

Lest they be cast out into the annals of history, yet again...

[uneven pier]

phooey

it's going on your list

[sudden moth]

I'll be honest, it didn't occur to me "swollen feet" would be a fetish thing.
I am not into feet myself, and "sore feet" didn't register as a kink thing tbh.
I just thought swollen feet was funny - so here we are xD

The only thing I have to add to the Dryad/Dragon thing, is apparently Dryads go into heat, and have a 100% chance of pregnancy then, and a 0% chance otherwise.
So arguably, they should have a *** for the Y's in the chart above

oh no, my bad

Dryads are *, not ** in that chart.
So they can just, choose if they get pregnant or not all the time.

[uneven pier]

let them stay in the shadows where they belong and fester

[sudden moth]

@ornate trench I'm doing the thing

Whatdoesthatmean? XD

[keen crystal]

For the Orc's supposed famed fecundity theres quite a few Nos on the chart and a fairly middle of the road conception chance

(Or well, I guess its high for the non heat non choice races)

[sudden moth]

low gestation though.
and I guess if you spend all day fightin, and all night fuckin, 40/4% is plenty

[keen crystal]

True XD

Which chance do you use for half orc/half elf?

[sudden moth]

counts as parent race kinda - but also the other race.
It sorta of skims that a touch... though has specific info about it in the races section...
If with elf, counts as elf (or orc with orc), if with human - human.
Due to both "halves" being quarters in any other, I think the other race becomes dominant, but it doesn't specify in the pregnancy or races sections...

chapter 6 of boef doesnt specify, but I'm wondering what if anything is in the half-breed rules in CR1.

[sudden moth]

Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered
an orc. Half-orcs, for example, are just as vulnerable to special
effects that affect orcs as their orc ancestors are, and they can use
magic items that are only usable by orcs.

Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered
an elf. Half-elves, for example, are just as vulnerable to special
effects that affect elves as their elf ancestors are, and they can use
magic items that are only usable by elves.

so they just straight count as orc and elf then

[sudden moth]

answer got!

[keen crystal]

Yeah that makes sense haha

So are tieflings counted under fiends here?

And they can also control if they want to get pregananante?

[terse tapir]

Don't tieflings not need any fiendish parentage?

[keen crystal]

They dont, but what else are they on the chart?

Plus they usually are created through fiendish intervention one way or another if im not mistaken?

[mellow shoal]

BOEF was 3.5 when Tieflings weren't really as present as a thing.

I think it's perfectly fair for Simulacrum to define them more strictly as Fiends; especially with how it enables using multiple creature types.

[sudden moth]

there were tieflings from 2nd, but I'm not sure exactly waht 3.5 book they are in - tracking that down

[mellow shoal]

Less porridge-y tieflings being enables.

[keen crystal]

Werent tieflings around back then? Maybe they were different kinds and not the way we know them today?

[mellow shoal]

Not as prominently/as core.

believe they'll be manual of the planes at least

[keen crystal]

Also another funny thing. Celestial and Fiend have variable gestation based on HD and Nymph has 1d12 months, but Dragon is just "Varied" lol

[sudden moth]

tieflings are core - mm

as a PC they are LA+1

they are outsiders

"trace heritage back to a fiend or celestial"

they would likely be fiends by this list

[keen crystal]

So they are counted as fiend basically

If theyre outsiders

Yea

Dam discord message delay

[ornate trench]

I'll tell ya when you're older

[keen crystal]

Imagine talking to your kid about the birds and the bees and you pull out this chart

[sudden moth]

my best guesses are jizzy penis, or egg sperm, but it's not.. great at being either

[keen crystal]

"When a man and a woman love each other very much, you consult the chart and check their racial compatibility to see if they could produce an offspring"

[mellow shoal]

"and if the answer is no, then they fuck without abaddon"

[sudden moth]

but yeah, I'ma transcribe a heap of stuff from boef, then 5eify a bunch of it.
Probably... not touching the classes xD

[keen crystal]

Ovion you gotta at least convert the Harem Protector

[sudden moth]

like, honestly - if I was paid to Id convert the entire book, and replace all the photos with art.

iunno if I can be bothered to do just harem protector though - because most of the classes (apart from a couple of wizard prestige) would also need a lot of rules from the rest converted over

and when I say "a heap", I mean really "less than a fifth of it, that I can actually do something with"

[keen crystal]

I wonder if people actually chose these and played them in otherwise normal games. Like having a standard rogue, wizard, cleric, and also a harem protector

[sudden moth]

some of it would integrate OK.
I'm sure someone tried it though.

It's part of what I think is better about the K&C stuff - it looks like it can integrate in normal play... mostly... not all, but more than BoEF
Whether it is, remains to be seen. xD

[keen crystal]

Lmao well update us when you get through it XD

Also Ovion

Firearm noise

[sudden moth]

bang

[sudden moth]

noise rules - which is "if wet, no worky. if raining, disadvantage" and like... half a mile per damage die range hearing "bang", with suppressors making that ~60ft per for the crunchy specifics. (pretty sure I was treating sound like light - loud up to half, quiet past that)

Barrel Attachments

• Suppressors - disad to hear shots, and/or maybe When you are hidden from a creature and miss it with a ranged weapon attack, making the attack doesn't reveal your position.?
• Flash Hider - disad to see shots, and/or maybe When you are hidden from a creature and miss it with a ranged weapon attack, making the attack doesn't reveal your position.?
• Magic Suppressor - Uncommon - shot is silent (makes a thwip), and/or When you are hidden from a creaturemaking the attack doesn't reveal your position.?
• Magic Flash Hider - Uncommon - shot is invisible, and/or When you are hidden from a creature making the attack doesn't reveal your position.?
• Magical Silencer - Rare - shot is silent (makes a thwip) and invisible, When you are hidden from a creature making the attack doesn't reveal your position, ???
• Enlargener - Uncommon - +2 damage -or- +1 die step (+2 easier to word, and scale by rarity, but)?

Notey Notes!
Updated so far

The explosive discharge of a firearm can be heard from a significant distance away, meaning attacks with a firearm are audible at a distance determined by the type of weapon.
This distance can be reduced by mounting a suppressor to the weapon. text here and supressed distance may be moved to suppressor equipment section
At up to half that distance, the sound is clear and creatures familiar with firearms will understand the sound is a gunshot.
Beyond half the distance, a creature can make a DC15 Wisdom (Perception) check to determine if the noise is a gunshot.

Firearm Distance Suppressed Distance
Handgun 1 mile 60 feet
Long Gun 2 miles 120 feet
Heavy Weapon 3 miles 180 feet

[sudden moth]

Items:

Suppressors

A hollow tube full of padding or baffles, that attaches to the end of a firearm to reduce the noise of the gunshot, and hiding the flash of the shot.
A suppressor is usually at least as wide as the weapon is, and is typically half the length to the length of the firearms barrel.
When you are hidden from a creature, and miss a shot with a suppressed firearm, the attack does not reveal your position.
Handgun Suppressor. A handgun with a mounted suppressor reduces the distance that firearms shots are heard from to 60 feet.
Long Gun Suppressor. A long gun with a mounted suppressor reduces the distance that firearms shots are heard from to 120 feet.
Heavy Weapon Suppressor. A heavy weapon with a mounted suppressor reduces the distance that firearms shots are heard from to 180 feet.
Siege Weapon Suppressor. A siege weapon suppressor is a massive item, and is almost a small siege weapon itself, and increases the aiming value by 1.
A siege weapon with a mounted suppressor reduces the distance that firearms shots are heard from to 600 feet.

Arcane Silencer
Wondrous item (Any suppressor), Rare
This suppressor is enchanted to completely remove the noise of a gun firing, leaving only the "thwip" sound of the bullets travel.
When you are hidden from a creature, attacking with the suppressed firearm, the attack does not reveal your position.

Projectile Amplifier
Wondrous item, Rarity Varies
Projectile amplifiers come in a variety of forms that attach to the end of a firearm.
Some look like a flared trumpet, others are a series of 2 or more progressively larger rings.
Regardless of the form, the enchantment increases the size of bullets passing through the amplifier without reducing its velocity, making it impact significantly harder dealing an amount of extra damage determined by its rarity.
When you are hidden from a creature, attacking with the suppressed firearm, the attack does not reveal your position.
...Projectile Amplifier Damage Bonus Rarity
Large Handgun +2 Uncommon
Huge Handgun +4 Rare
Gargantuan Handgun +6 Very Rare
Colossal Handgun +8 Legendary
Large Long Gun +2 Uncommon
Huge Long Gun +4 Rare
Gargantuan Long Gun +6 Very Rare
Colossal Long Gun +8 Legendary
Large Heavy Weapon +2 Uncommon
Huge Heavy Weapon +4 Rare
Gargantuan Heavy Weapon +6 Very Rare
Colossal Heavy Weapon +8 Legendary

@keen crystal@ornate trench how does that all look?

[sudden moth]

start here.

[ornate trench]

Snow's the noise person, I'm just here for the free snacks

[sudden moth]

you do mechanics, have worked on guns and can check my wording xD

Snow is just poking me to do it, cos I asked them to not let me forget

and credit to em, they didn't

[keen crystal]

[sudden moth]

but how does it look?

[keen crystal]

I cant imagine a siege weapon supressor because im imagining installing a supressor on a catapult

is Enlargener and Projectile Amplifier the same?

[sudden moth]

Yes.
Refined vs concept

[sudden moth]

It's mostly for cannon.
But I can't think of a particular seperator, cos cannons are just under "siege engine"

[uneven pier]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhOvZGLxYuE&pp=ygUMYmlnIHNpbGVuY2Vy

[ornate trench]

not too big a fan of the silencer taking the exact trait of the Skulker feat (unless you don't use that feat), otherwise this all looks fine

also, have u figured out the impact rules for a ship sized HEAT round?

[sudden moth]

havena no

[sudden moth]

OK so.. I do allow skulker (and it will be in sim)
Buuut, I can fix that - by making skulker not work on firearms - cos it doesn't make a huge amount of sense that it would anyway

[sudden moth]

<@&1298034354320183346> just testing something.
If it works - Hi, I reject 5.24's whole, at most stealing juicey morsels from it, and embrace OG 5.14, and Sim + everything here will be about that, so your eyes will be helpful!
If it doesn't work, I apologise to the 3 of you that this might ping.
Please look at my Firearm Noise rules, lemme know what you think ~

[sudden moth]

they start here.

[tall shale]

Lemme see this

[bold tendon]

Looks good to me I think, definitely like the Arcane Silencer too. Couple questions:

• What exactly is an aiming value for siege weapons?
• Is Projectile Amplifier supposed to also be a silencer, and if so, why?

[sudden moth]

Siege weapons take a number of actions to load, aim and fire.
the full text is like "a cannon takes one action to load, one action to aim, and one action to fire", and the shorthand is load (1), aim (1), fire (1)

Projectile Amplifier isn't an arcane silencer, it was just in the prior notes as a thing to make, so while I was there - it is a barrel attachement though.

[halcyon pollen]

Honestly, that seems accurate, in regards to report.

[sudden moth]

half formed thoughts on expanding cold/heat but I am out of time / brain for the moment. xD
Saving to come back to later.
Cold res counts as 1 level higher (till neutral), Immunity ignores Cold negatives.
Heat res counts as 1 level lower (till neutral), Immunity ignores Heat negatives.

Cold (under 10c/50f) = no clothes = save every 2 hours?
Neutral (10-25c/50-77f) = no effect, wear clothes, don't, who cares.

[uneven pier]

don't forget the thermal cube

[keen crystal]

Ovion, youve done damage advantage for weapons, but how good is damage DISadvantage for armor?

Also, how good is Reroll Crit hits vs Crits become normal hits?

[sudden moth]

reroll crit is what... 1% chance to recrit and chance to miss outright vs still a hit, just no extra damage.
so reroll is certainly better.

armour inflicting damage disad is... probably equal to resistance?

[uneven pier]

how's the cold and heat res coming along?

[keen crystal]

Ovion, your spell damage chart, have you ever considered putting the values for DoT style damage? Like Heat Metal or Call Lightning?

[sudden moth]

usually it's just aoe track if single, -1 level if multi

I could probably make tracks dedicated to it though

[keen crystal]

Could make a note at the bottom tho idk how messy that is

[delicate surge]

This the one?

[sudden moth]

arp

[delicate surge]

schweet, one sec...

Breaching Magic Missile
Level 4 Evocation (Sorcerer, Wizard)
Casting Time: Action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You fire four missiles, each hitting a target that you can see within range—you can hit one target more than once. A hit deals 2d4 + 2 Force damage.
A creation of magical force (like Wall of Force or Resilient Sphere) that is blocking a direct path to the target is breached, leaving behind a 5-foot hole. These missiles breach and dispel the Mage Armor and Shield spells.
nice creation of force you have there

Guided Magic Missile
Level 5 Evocation (Sorcerer, Wizard)
Casting Time: Action
Range: Self
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You name or describe a target, then fire a magic missile that tracks the target. The missile moves 120 feet per round, takes the shortest unobstructed path to the target, and vanishes prematurely if it is more than 1,000 feet from the location where you cast it.
When the missile reaches its target, it hits and deals 4d4 + 10 Force damage. Each other creature within 5 feet of the target takes 1d4 + 1 Force damage.
This spell counts as Magic Missile for Shield and similar effects.
it's a guided missile.

[sudden moth]

how do I make a thread for my thread...

haven't posted these in a while. xD

[delicate surge]

holy sh-

[sudden moth]

I need to make more.
I should convert these to Sim first. xD

[delicate surge]

Magic Intercontinental Ballistic Missile
Level 9 Evocation (Sorcerer, Wizard)
Casting Time: Action
Range: 1 mile
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
“Holy shit” —Unknown Missile-Mage
You launch a giant missile that blasts a point you can see within range. Each target in a 60-foot radius sphere cantered on that point takes 20d4 + 20 force damage, and five smaller missiles fly out to hit targets within 150 feet (you can choose the same target more than once). Each target takes 2d4 + 5 force damage. If you choose no target, the missiles strike hostile creatures at random.
Effects that block Magic Missile halve the damage of the initial blast and confer immunity to the smaller missiles.

This one is the entire reason I did these

... aw man you also did one with that name

[sudden moth]

ye, I have Intercontinental Magic Missile.
I think it was originally Intercontinental Ballistic Magic Missile, but that didn't track.

[delicate surge]

I have no original thoughts

[ornate trench]

#thereAreNoOriginalThoughts

[delicate surge]

Apparently not even in the world of missile puns

[untold bane]

Are you sure they are magical?

[delicate surge]

Want to find out?

[untold bane]

You want to try it in my prison escape game?

[delicate surge]

-# curses, my ominous threat didn't work!
Spell's free for you to take 👀

[uneven pier]

what about Submarital magic missile?

[sudden moth]

I don't thiink any magic missile is planning to get married in its brief seconds of existence, so that would technically be all of them wouldn't it?

[uneven pier]

could be a charming missile?

[red ridge]

a Sending-type spell that deals like 2d4 damage. Just targets a creature you know exists that's on your plane (optional)

[mellow shoal]

You did a bunch of eras of tech for guns right?

What sort of basises did you have for the different balance points?

[sudden moth]

OK so...
To prefeace - all firearms rules are essentially, a series of compromises (I mean, most game rules are, but firearms more than most - especially if you're including melee, and historic options).
The choices between overall power, balance, feel, cost, drawbacks, etc are skewed, due to the reality that irl especially, guns are just better most of the time.
They revolutionised warfare, and combat overall, then replaced basially every other ranged weapon (and most weapons overall) outside of specific instances for a reason.
So in 5e especially, you have to accept there will be certain inaccuracies, or relative imbalances.

The main ones here coming primarily down to:

• Do you want "reasonably accurate feeling" weapons, so guns feel like guns (and so will naturally end up leaning towards being "better than")
• Do you want "reasonably in line with other weapons, so guns feel like reskinned crossbows (and will naturally end up being flavour only, and not "feeling" overly gunny)
  With a few measures in between.

With my preference for "as accurate as I can make it to irl, while being appropriately 5eified rules wise", doubly so once I created the equation for converting IRL impact force of weapons into 5e.
So I simply had to accept that guns would do more damage, because guns hit harder.
Guns have "accurate"ish damage, and range, to irl (so do my bows and crossbows).

To help differentiate them from "medieval" weapons, I give them 2 die base - so even a pistol that hits like a bow, does 2d4 instead of 1d8.

The major "universal" balancing aspects are:

• It's far, far, far easier to enchant Arrows and Bolts than it is bullets - more surface area if nothing else.
  This means the options for "magical ammo" with guns is far more limited, or if you want the broader options *far more expensive
• They are loud as fuck - heard for literally miles.
• Legality is a thing, usually in a town or city, open carry will be frowned up and cause upset, if it's allowed at all.

For specific eras, there are also some extra considerations in:

• Medieval / Fantasy - depending on the era exactly, guns may be wildly rare and expensive. Even if not rare and expensive, the ammunition is single use, slower than a bow to use (for mine taking 2 attacks to load + fire, so 1 2d8+stat firearm is equal to, if not slightly worse than, 1 2x 1d8+stat bow).
  There is also the risk of misfire adding +1 attack to load times, 5% of the time.
• With post-ren, and pre-modern firearms, things have improved a bit so there is still oft a misfire chance, but weapons have more ammo, mitigating the fire rate issue, allowing them to be just, flat better than bows and arrows most of the time - but this also tracks with the feel of firearms, so I am fine with that.
  In fantasy settings, bows and crossbows will see more longevity, due to the above note on enchantment.
• With modern settings, the ship has sailed. Guns are king. Magazine capacity exists, fire rate is "how fast can you pull the trigger" and Even Bigger options exist.
  Misfire is incredibly rare (my rules have modern weapons misfire on a double 1 in any to-hit roll)
  It is simply something to accept, that baseline combat is likely to involve more range, more cover, and more damage.
  In fantasy settings, bows and crossbows remain to some degree, because special enchantments are massively cheaper to apply than bullets, but they are relegated to that niche.
  But, legalities and licensing are even more important - many modern places it is illegal to carry a gun at all without certain special dispensations (like being police), let alone openly - and especially things beyond a sidearm.

[mellow shoal]

Gotcha. Ty for all that. I think thinking largely lines up. I basically am at "better but not overwhelmingly so" due to drawbacks.

So its essentially Fantasy, Premodern, Modern for you?

No cyberpunk/sci fantasy?

[sudden moth]

I have some slight future / scifi bits, but haven't really got that far full yet

when I do, I'm gonna be doing some "realistic futurism" stuff, then like... 40k, broad scifi shit, etc

[mellow shoal]

Totally fair.

[keen crystal]

The double 1 to hit only comes into play on adv or disadv correct?

[mellow shoal]

Or confirmation crit fails?

[sudden moth]

ye

[mellow shoal]

My thinking was essentially using guns as a normalisation curve.

Fantasy Guns, basically in-line with your crossbows and other fantasy stuff.

Premodern/modern, step above that.

Futuretech, step above That, basically in-line with other future-area stuff.

Accepting powercreep by technological progression, but that powercreep being used to establish a new normal, basically.

So i was somewhat curious if youd already done essentially that kind of curve, just not put it to work for this purpose

[sudden moth]

the main "hard data" I've got is the Muzzle Energy / Impact Force table.

[alpine briar]

Speaking of, Ovion, do you have any tips on making a point system to check for balancing ?
I want to do the same for 2024 non magical weapons, so I can create homebrew with a bit more confidence. Anything helps

[sudden moth]

I always just use the construction rules + experience.
Plus like, tables I've put in #1192490146881359942

[uneven pier]

WIP inspector.
Please present your current WIPs and homebrew for inspection

[sudden moth]

OK so.
My current WIP was sorting out meds, medical kit, and supplement shit that I need for the next ~6 months (yay long covid)
Also, arguing with fraduy banks shit, and trying to figure out what TV to buy.
Otherwise like... what was I even working on?....
Magic missiles, and whatever the fuck this is

I do need to make some finesse polearms though, cos I forgot that

[uneven pier]

I've seen that magic missile list, how many more could you want to do?

[sudden moth]

Conversion to SIm.
I'm only maybe half way through.
But there are deffo more I wanted to do. xD

I can't find where I put the to-do-list of magic missiles... but I know I had one

[uneven pier]

what's this about finesse polearms? Like dueling canes and batons?

[sudden moth]

dueling canes are blunty swordy, and batons are... finesse clubs?
I'l need to check...
but I realised I never filled that gap - so 1d10? heavy, reach, finesse, and 1d8, reach, finesse polearms likely want to be made

need to figure out what they'll be mind

[uneven pier]

I feel like having a finesse heavy polearm is an oxymoron. finesse weapons typically use Dex for attacks, heavy implies that you need some strength to wield it
I know that it actually means that small creatures have disadvantage on the use of the weapon, it just feels that way
Besides, we already have the greatclub, so it might not wholly necessary

[sudden moth]

heavy is more about balance than weight.
and, having used what I'd class as dex polearms myself in the past, I can see it workin - though that thing was more about area denial, and pinning...
I don't recall it having a name - basically, a long, aged wood pole, with a T grip at the base, then a ring of alternating T bars down the end.
incredibly light, anyone coming near you, you could swipe, twist, or pin - and using it was all about deft motion, and basically no strength.

[uneven pier]

partially related, are you aware of the Bedil tombak, the Pole gun?

[sudden moth]

not those specifically - but I'm familiar with the weapons they are based on (that are basically the same) in mongol handgonne / handcannon, and firelances

[uneven pier]

I don't know much about them either, I was in them midst of trying to find the one you were talking about and stumbled on it. But might be something to consider as well

[sudden moth]

yeah, got firelances, and hand cannons for "early firearms"

[uneven pier]

I mean as a pole weapon, rather than a firearm

though as my search continues and finding other things, what about the fire staff? It may well be a performative weapon, but why not?

or multi-section polearms?

[sudden moth]

ah, I mean, at best that'd be a combination weapon, of quarterstaff and smallgun really.

[uneven pier]

Is it something like this?

[sudden moth]

closer to be sure.
It was basically like one of these as a polearm.

[uneven pier]

It'd be something like a mancatcher then I would think

[uneven pier]

So far, the best I could find was a reddit post asking the same question and not quite getting an answer. Don't think I'll be able to get a definitive name on the weapon

[sudden moth]

yeah, like I said - I'm not sure it even had a real name.
More one of those "obscure things that crops up here and there", and I just happened to get a chance to mess with one for a few days

same with uh... a chinese sword breaker? That was specifically designed to catch / snap the thinner, more flexible swords at the time.
But were rare, and not used much cos "it was really awkward to use, and too much work over just a polearm"

[uneven pier]

best the reddit post had to say was something that might have been seen in Iron Monkey, but that's on the basis that a proper response wasn't given to that

[uneven pier]

in other check ups. Weren't you doing something with cold and heat resistances?

[sudden moth]

I was theorycrafting a hot/cold system, but it wasn't enough to hold my interest so I got distracted. xD

[uneven pier]

a hot/cold system?

[sudden moth]

yeah, like extreme heat to extreme cold, and the clothing needed at each level to not die

[uneven pier]

depending on the level of technology I'd assume?

'cause first thought that comes to mind is like heavy and thick clothes for colder temperatures and thinner, lighter clothes for warmer temperatures, which is usually already accommodated or taken care of at a basic level

Other phenomenon that occurs at extreme temperatures on the other hand aren't covered much

Like falling into a falling lake, or monsoon seasons

[uneven pier]

question, is there such a weapon that's like a short spear, but with a smaller head?

like this, but halve the blade size

[primal badge]

In fiction yes. Historically, I'm not sure.

[uneven pier]

given the numerous style of spears and polearms, I figure there might be one.

I figure it might a fairly effective finesse weapon, like batons, I just think the blade is too long to be used the way I'm thinking

[primal badge]

Tbh such a weapon would be much less durable than a shortsword (more wood) with little to no advantage over it (less versatile, similar reach, no added thrusting power, depleted cutting power because it weights less)
And unlike a javelin, I fear that the balance wouldn't make it a good thrown weapon either

Make no mistake, it looks cool as fuck, but with a practical angle I have a hard time figuring out where it wiuld be used

[uneven pier]

I wouldn't consider it a replacement for a short sword, no.
Like the main form of fighting with them, that I'm thinking of, is akin to fighting with batons and rods. Lots of quick smacking that becomes slashing

https://tenor.com/view/steve-blackman-albert-tensai-matt-bloom-a-train-gif-23932146

like that

though, I fear he's going to break those against the other guy's body

[primal badge]

XD

Yeah, that's why I say shortswords. Want bigger daggers ? Have more blade, not more handle. Still incredibly light, more durable, and better at thrusting and slashing (you could even have a guard to protect your digits !)

Batons are great for neutralising people and can be used as levers for grappling and such, very good tools for peacekeepers. But if you want to add a blade in the mix, I don't think this design was much used.

That said I'm not certain it wasn't in some place in some way, humans did a lot of impractocal cool stuff throught history x)

[sudden moth]

assegai - short spears.

[uneven pier]

that was one I just found, I more thinking of a blade that was ~4 inches long, that kind of short blade

[primal badge]

More like this ? (From the hellboy movie)

[sudden moth]

4 is a bit.... excessively short?
Few combat blades will be less than 6 - just due to penetration

[uneven pier]

near enough

[uneven pier]

I ain't exactly picturing them as efficient killing weapons. I had the thought of such a weapon and was wondering if such a weapon existed. as for 4 inches, It's just what I had in mind in terms of size
I am by no means a weaponsmith

besides, I weren't picturing them as penetrating weapons, more slashing

[sudden moth]

even then - you want to be able to cleanly cut a throat, or gut, or cut through cloth/armour/meat/fat or penetrate ribs to hit the heart to finish prey off.
the accepted minimum from anitiuity to now, has been a handsbreadth, or 6-7"

[uneven pier]

At most, this sort of thing would be a thug weapon in a Post victorian era. Like, it wouldn't have much use outside of that

[sudden moth]

might I suggest, a converted carving knife then.
Most carried knives of that era were folders, so you could go with a "long handled folder".
But I think using a converted carving knife might be up your alley for this

[shy rock]

There's some pretty short yari, but I'm not sure that's short enough for you.

[uneven pier]

question: Baseball bat, bludgeoning longsword?

[red ridge]

Specialized wildshape more like

[primal badge]

more like quarterstaff : made out of wood, can be used with one or two hands. Not necessarily designed for combat.

[uneven pier]

how can a baseball bat not be designed for combat? even if not explicitly

[sudden moth]

yeah, it's more in line with a d6 (d8) single hander

than a d8 (d10) one

[primal badge]

a quarterstaff can be passed as a walking stick, a baseball bat is primarily designed for sport. The same way the first can then be used a headless polearm echos how the second can be use a middle ground for a club or a greatclub (with one or two hands). Thus the parallel.
Definitely not a martial weapon at any rate.

[uneven pier]

depends on how big your walking stick is, most modern ones only come up to the waist, whereas quarterstaffs are, at least 6ft long.
And with baseball bats, they're often favoured as a melee weapon by thugs and other street level crooks for the fact that they're designed to be hard hitting and durable. Afterall, they're repeatedly hitting projectiles the size of a hand travelling 90 mph with enough force behind the wielder to send it flying into grandstands. They're a brutal club, and I think of greater force than most clubs, especially the metal ones

also, not a martial weapon? have you not seen the Slugger style in Yakuza 0?

https://tenor.com/view/majima-slugger-smack-baseball-bat-heat-action-gif-8927256253474172634

[mellow shoal]

I feel like baseball bat as a sport implement is kind of reliant on the knowledge of it as a sport implement.
Given how many things that are dfeinitely classified as weapons are Also sporting implements; such as javelins, rapiers, guns, slings, but because of a history as weapon we more immediately associate as that first, sport doesn't count for much.

It'll be seen as a weighty club by most people for sure.

[dapper parrot]

i mean... a martial weapon would be a weapon that requires training, right? i think it being so simple to use is what would make it a simple weapon

so, yes, they're favoured as a melee weapon by thugs because you just need to be strong to use them and don't need any special training, but... they're still just greatclubs, i think

[primal badge]

a martial weapon is designed to kill. a baseball bat is designed for a sport. a spear is a more martial weapon than a baseball bat would be. In an urban setting where lethality is reprehensible by law they are certainly a not!weapon of choice, I'm not contesting that, but they are not at the same level as, say, a mace in terms of lethality.

(just the balancing shows : a bat is thick for its total length once you go past the handle : it makes for a bigger striking area, wich is very good for its purpose : having the most chances of hitting a fast-traveling projectile. A bludgeoning weapon designed for battle will have most of its weight at its very end in order to benefit better from the "dmg multiplier" effect of concentrating the power of each blow into a smaller, more concentrated area and maximize the damage done.)

[dapper parrot]

the maul and warhammer focus all your strength on a specific point, for which you need to hold the weapon a specific way, be trained, et cetera - that's what gives you the little one-step-up damage bonus (1d10 to 2d6 for greatclub>maul, 1d6/1d8 to 1d8/1d0 for quarterstaff>warhammer).

baseball bats are popular with thugs because they're simple to use, readily available because they're sold at sports stores and can easily be passed off as sports implements

like, 1d8+3 on a 16 strength character will still instantly kill a commoner every time, i don't think anybody is saying baseball bats can't be lethal, just not as lethal as weapons that require training and are designed to kill

[primal badge]

Like, baseball bats are a great implement in the context they are used for : a modern urban setting, with murder being not okay. They can be used to strike heavier blows than mere exclusively-one-handed-clubs, or saps or batons, can be used to grapple and subdue similar to said baton (althought they are a bit too thick to be as easily used in this way), and a proper use of force can generate a lot of pain with minimal damage, or break bones with minimal risk to kill.

[sudden moth]

counterpoint - baseball bats are just clubs.
many historical clubs were just baseball bats - maybe with spikes, maybe not.
Their main problem, if anything, is they're a touch lighter.

Baseball bats are a solid weapon, but like you say, a simpler one and slightly less "lethal" than proper martial ones.
So a simple, versatile, one handed d6 (d8) would track.

[uneven pier]

I'm resistant on calling it a club, since the club weapon in dnd just deals 1d4 bludgeoning and light, implying something like a baton than a bat

[sudden moth]

club in the technical term, not the D&D weapon

[primal badge]

and tbh, bludgeoning longswords are ... warhammers. definitely, baseball bats are not on par with that.

[sudden moth]

like a mace is a club.
and japanese kanabou, are basically just baseball bats

here you go, added it to me simple weapons. :p

bit of overlap with sledgehammer, but hey ho

[uneven pier]

1d4 with one hand?

[sudden moth]

that shoulda been 1d6, oops

[uneven pier]

would you make a distinction between wooden and metal bats?

[uneven pier]

I probably wouldn't but it might be worth thinking

[sudden moth]

not enough to matter for 5e tbh

[uneven pier]

also, you put the 1d6 for the club, not the bat

[sudden moth]

I'm having a day

[uneven pier]

there we go

[sudden moth]

Buckle Up Buckaroos - it's time for Magic Missiles up in this bitch!
Need to make sure it all makes sense, that the balance tracks out, that I've not missed anything major, in The Tome of too many Magic Missiles.

I think the main relevant "external info" is a USR, where the "variants" mean any time you learn a spell, you can choose to learn the variant in a different damage type instead.
All spells with the (magic missile) tag, count as magic missile, for the purposes of effects that affect magic missile (i.e. Shield).
This includes the variant spell rule - so any of these can be replaced with "burning" or "slicing" when you learn it.
Also - "Threshold" save is shorthand for "10 or half the damage, whichever is higher".

[sudden moth]

@keen crystal off your analysis, can I get your thoughts on the current planned spread for my table?
Do you think this seems "fun" or "fair" / "right"?

46x Positive Effect
3x Very Positive Effect
1x Extremely Positive Effect

14x Meme Effect
12x Negative Effect
12x Neutral Effect

8x Roll on the Spell Surge table and cast that spell.
ʟ 96x Cast Spell

4x Roll on the Creature Surge table and summon that creature.
ʟ 16x Summon Creature
ʟ 32x Summon 1d3 Creature

Tier 1: d% + d4
Tier 2: d% + d6
Tier 3: d% + d8
Tier 4: d% + d10

[red ridge]

How's a meme effect differ from a neutral or good/bad?

[sudden moth]

positive will include things like healing, an attack, or some such.
negative will be self/team damage/debufss
neutral will be "fluff", like growing flowers, or playing music, pleasant scents
meme effects will be like "you turn blue", or "you become a plantpot for 1d10 turns" - so some may be neutral or negative, but they will be "silly".

Very Positive will be the "best in tier" like regaining some a spell slot.
Extremely positive the 100 spot - not sure what, might be something like "heal on self" iunno... but will figure it out

[red ridge]

Insta long rest. Once you get it, you can't get it for the next 24hrs/a week

Or maybe a pulse 20xLVL hp worth of energy that you can spread as you wish as damage/healing (like mass heal if it could hit enemies)

[keen crystal]

Seems about right yeah, basically about half the table is positive and the rest is split between meme, negative, or neutral

The more effects the more negatives you can get away with, with about a max 50/25/25 split. The original wild magic is a roughly 25/15/10, which is a 50% positive.

Idk what the +d4 to +d10 means tho, adding to the percent die to get the final result?

[sudden moth]

that's the rolls for each tier.
So tier 1 is 40, 2 60, 3 80, 4 100

so got these

which, will result in

[mellow shoal]

Gonna run some number thoughts your way in a bit

[uneven pier]

its been a bit, where're your numbers?

[mellow shoal]

So I ran the numbers for this and, maybe it's right, but with how disparate it feels as though my method might've been off.

An ability allowing a BA to throw a thrown light weapon; 1d6+3, so 6.5 x 0.65 for DPR
An ability allowing a BA to swap grip and add a die to versatile weapon when you crit, +2d10, 11 x 0.05.

Second comes in dramatically lower. Which I kind of expected statistically, but wanted to run method by you.

Fuck. I didn't slick send :x

[uneven pier]

question: is there a bludgeoning weapon that could substitute a rapier? Like it's got the same damage die and attributes

[ornate trench]

finesse bludgeoning is... a unique combo considering that bludgeoning would require strength in my mind

[sudden moth]

I have a couple

[ornate trench]

so if there is such a weapon that would be neat, but it'd surely have to have a Mechanism ™️ rather than being a simple tool

[sudden moth]

usually, flexi/spring rods and such - like riding crops, coshes, etc

[uneven pier]

like my first thought would be a cane or rod, but if there's other options

[ornate trench]

I think that'd fall under like... quarterstaff

[ornate trench]

but... riding crops are basically whips right? Like, the same force mechanics but on a smaller scale? Why would they be dex but not whip?

[flat ocean]

Wait whips aren't dex?

[ornate trench]

its just a flexible smack stick, not really something that does better the more "finesse" you have with it

wait whips are finesse

ok nvm that point then, but I do still feel like short slap stick should be better in the hands of a barbarian rather than a monk

[sudden moth]

So yes, but actually no - they are whips, but different mechanism.
Whips, as in whips are material that amplify force in a wave - they amplify the motion, by rolling it down a progressively smaller size.
Crops and other "short whips" have a spring material inside, that amplifies force with its own wibbly potential - same as with a crossbow or bow arm.
And yeah, as you say, is finesse.

[sudden moth]

I realise now, you just asked about rapier - which means I coulda just done "Cane" but... I'm here now.
Simple Melee Weapons

Brass Knuckles - 1d4 Bludgeoning, Finesse, Light, Special, 2 sp, 0.5 lb.
Bian - 1d4 Bludgeoning, Finesse, 15 sp, 2. lb.
Mallet - 1d4 Bludgeoning, Finesse, Versatile (1d6), 12 sp, 2.5 lb.

Martial Melee Weapons

Combat Yo-Yo - 1d4 Bludgeoning, Finesse, Light, Reach 10 sp, 0.5 lb.
Heavy Brass Knuckles - 1d6 Bludgeoning, Finesse, Light, Special, 2 sp, 0.5 lb.
Baton - 1d6 Bludgeoning, Finesse, Versatile (1d8), 3 sp, 1.5 lb.
Cane - 1d8 Bludgeoning, Amphibious, Finesse, 5 sp, 2. lb.
Light Boomerang - 1d4 Bludgeoning, Finesse, Light, Thrown 150 / 450, 3 sp, 0.5 lb.
Knout - 1d6 Bludgeoning, Finesse 2 sp, 3. lb.
Tonfa - 1d4 Piercing Finesse, Light, Special, Thrown 20 / 60, 5 sp, 1.5 lb.
Two Handed Flail - 1d8 Bludgeoning, Heavy, Finesse, Two-Handed, 60 sp, 7. lb.

Combination Weapons Combination Weapons require Proficiency with each component weapon, or Martial Weapons

Sword Cane, 12 sp, 6. lb.
Sword Cane - 1d6 Piercing Finesse, Light, Special
Cane Shaft - 1d6 Bludgeoning, Finesse, Light, Special

Brass Knuckles. Attacks made with brass knuckles are treated as unarmed strikes in addition to being a weapon attack.
Unarmed strikes made with this weapon deal an additional 1 Bludgeoning damage.
Sword Cane. A sword cane consists of a hollow shaft, concealing a blade.
A creature can use its action to make a DC 11 Investigation check to tell it is a weapon.
When sheathed, you may use the cane shaft only.
When drawn you may use the sword cane, cane shaft, or one in each hand.
Tonfa. While wielding the tonfa, you can can choose to forego an attack with the tonfa to gain +1AC till the start of your next turn.

[uneven pier]

the cane has the amphibious trait?

[sudden moth]

looks that way

which is just "doesnt have disad underwater

[uneven pier]

just wondering how a cane can be used underwater better than the other weapons

[sudden moth]

I'm going with "because rapier can".
You can jab with it.
pokey poeky stick.

as to why better underwater than the others?
honestly, the baton could probably have it.
The rest all move wrong, or have too large a head for it really.

[red ridge]

the estoc was mostly meant for piercing but you could prolly bludgeon with it cuz it wasnt sharp on the sides, at least from what i remember from mordhau

[keen crystal]

Isnt estoc a bigger rapier? Id assume its basically a piercing longsword

[shy rock]

I'm not sure that thrusting is how you maximize damage with a cane. I think the base attack is a swing.

[sudden moth]

it is, but being I wanted "bludgeoning rapier", I just copied that.
And it can work with jabs so, it's enough to work underwater for me. xD

[mellow shoal]

Do you have ranseurs?

[sudden moth]

not yet

[uneven pier]

ranseurs?

[sudden moth]

hoook headed spears

[uneven pier]

oh cool

[sudden moth]

how does this look with the highlights and gradients as a whole page?

[young ginkgo]

Is it true that all your brews are made in Excel?

[uneven pier]

they say he's a freak in the sheets, if you know what I mean

[sudden moth]

I know I answered in formatting, but yes, everything. xD

[uneven pier]

did you ever finish the mud based subclasses?

[sudden moth]

A better question might be, did I ever start the mud based subclasses.

The answer to both questions is no.

[red ridge]

Woe, the german mud wizard be upon ye

[sudden moth]

someone had asked for all my items not that long ago.
but I can't find that, and it's a bit jumbly - I assume you'd want gold economy @dapper shard ?

[dapper shard]

Sure! The more the merrier! If you wouldn't mind, that is.

[sudden moth]

Any firearm stuff is superceded by these two images

and this should be all the new properties - though lemme know if any are missing (this is a "summary sheet", and I have a big messy list of all the properties otherwise, so I mighta missed some)

[sudden moth]

that should about cover it atm!

[vague thorn]

what does the powered property do? i dont see its description in any of the pages

[sudden moth]

Needs power from a magic item, 1 charge per use.
Is what the Charge Plate provides (though you could feasibly use any charge from any magic item), there'll be more of them at some point!

[uneven pier]

Ultra- and Infra- vision

[sudden moth]

define ultra?
Infra rolls into Darkvision does it not?

[uneven pier]

Ultraviolet and infrared vision

something from the 3.5 days

[sudden moth]

ah,. yeah - 5e rolled those into darkvision

with my change of "not always grey" though, that can at least be like "darkvision, green" and "darkvision, red" tho xD

[uneven pier]

I might be misunderstanding the use of it. But I thought Ultra and Infra vision was used to see past illusions and invisibility, since illusion spells tend to operate on the light spectrum

so rolling them into darkvision seems to be a bit of a downer, but then it'd probably make true sight redundant

[sudden moth]

ay

[uneven pier]

might there be a thing called Moon-sight? like it lets you see the original form of a creature?

or is that too much?

[keen crystal]

didnt go for a midground "low light vision"? too granular?

[sudden moth]

ye.
As much as I like the more granular visions, Darkvision combining them does make a lotta sense, plus simthings

[uneven pier]

oh, wasn't there some other kind of sight that lets a creature see through snow/sand like in snow/sand storms?

[mellow shoal]

With your guns, is there any traits or such that handle like, the spark the weapon makes when it fires? Any interactions with flammability from that?
Same for if the guns are used in rain/get soaked?

[sudden moth]

black powder firearms get disad in the rain (and auto misfire underwater).
powder that takes fire damage will also detonate (so usually, if it takes more than the hp of the container), with a 30ft aoe? (from memory) that does 1d6 damage per lb.

[mellow shoal]

Oh i mean like when a firearm is used amid say, flammable gas leak. The spark of that

[sudden moth]

ah, nothing specific atm, but my gm fiat would totally ignite that

[vague thorn]

You could call it "Oops! All Champions!"