But also, he cast his tempest something focus spell and did very little damage because the enemy succeeded the basic save.
#Pathfinder
brave marsh
clever wigeon
microspacing, displacement, and tile manipulation mattering is great
rip, d12s are still d12s
that shit can fizzle hard
my home campaign party's investigator crit with an arquebus for 3 damage yesterday
shoutouts to precision immunity
gotta be in my top 5 least favorite 2e design decisions
brave marsh
Our investigator crit with her fatal firearm for like 54 damage today.
brave marsh
Precision immunity is gonna suck for our strikers once we encounter that lol.
clever wigeon
I just think it's a dumb choice
brave marsh
Immunity is pretty harsh yeah.
clever wigeon
rogue dpr isn't exactly better than fighter or barb, even if an optimized build makes it about even
and investigator & sniper have way worse dpr
brave marsh
Especially since there are so many ways classes use precision damage. It would be like rage damage immunity.
clever wigeon
so precision immunity, which targets exclusively those classes, fucks over things that already have less stellar damage
but not just
a greataxe giant barb or bastard sword fighter
I get that it's a flavor choice for proteans, oozes, and ghosts
I just think that it's a bad design choice
that and fucking golems
god
golems almost make me wish for 5e combat
almost
brave marsh
How does it work, precision immunity, does it not apply if I use some weakness like idk adamantine or whatever for golems.
Like if I have ghost touch, does that mean I can precisely hit a ghost now?
clever wigeon
nope, precision immunity is just precision immunity
if you've got secondary effects, those apply as normal, but uh
that extra 3d6 strategic strike damage is just
out the window, full stop
should've just rolled an int fighter instead :v
rogues, swashes, vests, rangers, slingers
all crying in the corner
brave marsh
It kind of makes sense, but even then. If it can't be any more abstract, you should probably be able to like Recall Knowledge to think about a strategy against them. One action for the precision immunity to not apply.
clever wigeon
something, aye
it's not like you're not superheroes in a world full of magic
this rogue can fucking toggle noclip
why can't she stab a ghost in the not-lungs
brave marsh
I've been sickened a few times in combat and it always felt fair to use one action to retch and get rid of the condition.
clever wigeon
tbf, it feels fair until you fail the fort save four times lmfao
it still is fair, it's just
brave marsh
Lol
brave marsh
There was one combat where this guy was shooting us with poison nails. And the effects worsened per nail in your body. You had to spend actions to remove nails.
clever wigeon
not sure what creature that is, but yeah
that sounds painful
god I love the action system
so good for so much
brave marsh
My GM reflavors a bunch of stuff. It could have been like a poison barb creature of some sort he just made a humanoid.
The druid cast the 3-action versions of scorching ray and heal to great effect. I like that those versions can get real crazy, but also you don't get to do anything else that turn, so best be in a safe position.
3-action heal on the party and the undead surrounding us.
clever wigeon
Heal & Harm are such an elegant use of the 3-action system
the streamlining of the "quick heal," "strong heal," and "mass heal" spells into one, without just being all 3 at the same time or being bloated
they're the perfect implementation of a variable action spell
cedar condor
Worth mentioning that 2 action cantrip +1 action strike is one of the cheapest strong action cycles
So say if you're a champion, taking 2 gauntlets with 2 level 3 spell hearts on them for cantrip into strike is really good
clever wigeon
Worth mentioning that 2 action cantrip +1 action strike is one of the cheapest s...
not nearly as much for martials, though
that's definitely a caster thing
warpriest/warrior bard/battle oracle
where they want to drop a 2act save spell and a Strike
regular martials would usually much rather Strike twice and use some utility
or grab a couple metastrikes
cedar condor
Eeeh
Champion, Monk and Ranger certainly can make the most of it. Thaum can too
Strike, cantrip or flourish cantrip
Its not necessarily better than their maximised combos, but at lower levels its a good investment (3-4ish) until they come online
steel bobcat
To my compatriots with more pathfinder knowledge than i, are there any fox adjacent fey creatures
in 1e or 2e
obsidian zinc
in 1e or 2e
kitsune, I think?
steel bobcat
Not fey
clever wigeon
To my compatriots with more pathfinder knowledge than i, are there any fox adjac...
all I'm aware of in 2e
steel bobcat
There's a solid chance my party TPKs today o7
12 of them to 5 of us, and we are split up and i'm not prepped for combat
rather, i have handed out useful buffs but
my actual combat capabilities are minimal cause
alchemist who prepped mostly buffs not expecting people to cock up how they did
clever wigeon
there comes a time
when all one may do is pray
and hope that gorum grants you the biggest stick
normal badger
Hmm… I'm wondering if I should maybe build my necromancer concept as a summoner instead of a wizard
Focus more on the, you know, summoning part instead of overall spellcasting
If I take one of the Phantom eidolons instead of the actual Undead, that'd also allow me to circumvent my own Negative Healing (the character will likely be a dhampir) by letting people heal my eidolon instead
normal badger
my only issue is that Summoner uses Charisma to cast; I feel like Intelligence would fit the characcter better
clever wigeon
summoner is also not a class entirely built around "summoning"
it's got the feats, but
like you seem to be aware, it's very much the "you are a jojo/persona reference, or a jrpg protagonist" class
so if you want to go all-in on the necro, necro wizard with the Reanimator archetype is the way to go
normal badger
like you seem to be aware, it's very much the "you are a jojo/persona reference,...
Yeah, the eidolon does low-key have Stand vibes 
I'm just intrigued by the idea of having a permanent sidekick-ish companion tbh
normal badger
Instead of just casting animate dead every encounter, you just have one creature that's with you all the time and you only cast animate dead when you want a second creature
frosty scaffold
Guys I think Pathfinder is just better than D&D...
clever wigeon
Guys I think Pathfinder is just better than D&D...
in related news https://twitter.com/paizo/status/1644418516869578752
elfin brook
<:Bethinker:436795691826675713> my only issue is that Summoner uses Charisma to ...
It's charisma because you're basically trying to convince an otherworldly being to fight for you all the time
normal badger
Yeah, it probably makes sense. It just doesn't fit my character lol
elfin brook
Nothing wrong with changing the stat from CHA to INT if your DM allows it
Not a massive balance issue there
normal badger
Though tbh, I still think both D&D and Pathfinder would be better served if spellcasting just had its own stat instead of having it duct-taped onto some aspect of your personality
peak meteor
I think it being its own stat usually feels a bit out of place unless it’s a system with a lot more stats, but you could always have it not be stat-based
Though that might have its own issues as well depending on what you’re going for
clever wigeon
oh boy
we've reached the "hey, let's remove stats" point
which i absolutely agree with...kind of
normal badger
Like… hmm
There are some classes where it totally makes sense
Like, say, wizard
Being more intelligent helps you understand your spells better. Checks out
But for something like Summoner, which is a very broad concept thematically, it can happen quickly that you come up with a character concept that fits the class's general concept but for which Charisma as a main stat doesn't seem natural
I have two more or less concrete concepts for Summoner characters in mind, and one feels more like it should be an Int caster and the other more like a Wis caster
peak meteor
There are also classes that let you choose the casting stat iirc
Actually I might be misremembering
Ah I was thinking of sorcerers and witches being able to choose spell traditions
clever wigeon
There are also classes that let you choose the casting stat iirc
psychic
it has two sets of subclass
one is the conscious mind, the "standard" subclass
and the other is the subconscious mind, which gives you a minor single-action activity you can do in your mage-rage, and determines your casting stat
two are INT, two are CHA
peak meteor
Ah I see
normal badger
That's cool. Summoner should do that too 😌
normal badger
Then sorcerer should do it too 
clever wigeon
if it were more of a setting-agnostic system, it might pass muster
but it's not
since charisma is the "enact your will upon reality" stat
normal badger
why tho
clever wigeon
and that's the whole core of sorc, summoner, thaum, and the cha-half of psychic
normal badger
Yeah, I'm just not sure why it has to be
normal badger
Like, for summoner, it would very much be imaginable that your magic comes from different sources depending on your eidolon
clever wigeon
right, but
it's not within the setting
which is what the system is, first and foremost, designed for
Golarion
normal badger
hmm
normal badger
Hmm… that is an interesting point
clever wigeon
it's not something that would break if, in your homebrew setting
the answer to "what a summoner is/does" is different from in Golarion
normal badger
That's fair. I'm just, like… it would have cost them nothing to make the definition broader
clever wigeon
ehh
it would cost them flavor
it's the same thing as why Kineticists are con-based
rather than a mental stat for their spiritualism or just str/dex for
"throwing things"
and it's why champions are alignment-locked and have their specific tenets
kineticists aren't CHA like sorcs because they're not drawing power from their blood, they're not WIS like druids because they're not metaphysically tied to the elements
normal badger
The heck is a kineticist
clever wigeon
they're CON because the source of their power is directly using their body as a physical conduit to one or more of the elemental planes
clever wigeon
The heck is a kineticist
1e class, coming to 2e with Rage of Elements in August
normal badger
Ah
clever wigeon
they're CON because the source of their power is directly using their body as a ...
and so it's not a sympathetic link or any metaphysical connection that fuels them, it's just
"how much of Fire can you channel at once?"
it's also why thaums aren't INT or WIS, despite being all about "knowing niche bullshit about monsters"
since their whole thing is also tied to the magic and metaphysics of the Pathfinder setting
it's using their force of will to apply those sympathic links, or to create definitions that almost make sense but don't function normally
normal badger
Still, for a lot of those classes, I feel like the design process was probably coming up with a general concept first, then figuring out which ability intuitively seemed to fit best, and then cementing that ability's relevance in the lore
clever wigeon
using the iconography of Sarenrae to evoke a weakness of the sun against a vampire, or a shattered chain link to assault a slaver
things that Do Not Work Like That, but should
and could, if you squinted a bit
and now do, because you say so, and because your conviction is such that the world must cede the point to you
these things might not work like that in other settings
clever wigeon
Still, for a lot of those classes, I feel like the design process was probably c...
you're not necessarily wrong! I don't know if we have any designer insight on that, and if we do i certainly don't know enough about it
but as it is, the setup of classes does follow the internal "logic" of the core Pathfinder setting
normal badger
It's just, that seems like the most straightforward way to go about it
normal badger
things that Do Not Work Like That, but *should*
Anyway… this sounds like a really cool concept, what class is that again?
clever wigeon
like I said, I'm not saying you're wrong, and it certainly would make sense
Thaumaturge!
one of my favorites, for sure
normal badger
I see. I'll have to read up on how that one works
clever wigeon
it's a CHA-KAS martial whose subclass is one to three of nine "implement" options
normal badger
KAS?
clever wigeon
Key Ability Score
normal badger
ah
clever wigeon
all of the implements have, within the setting of Golarion, different associated like
Harrow suits (tarot cards), and star signs, and other shit like that
super fucking interesting class, too
its core mechanic revolves around those aforementioned implements and an activity called Exploit Vulnerability, where you roll a special CHA lore skill to either
discover and use an existing weakness (like silver for a werewolf or fire for an ice ooze)
clever wigeon
using the iconography of Sarenrae to evoke a weakness of the sun against a vampi...
or apply a personal weakness using things like this
normal badger
Yeah that sounds pretty cool
steel bobcat
i chose to be a mess
steel bobcat
vampire doesn't actually get a ton of like
flavor that the dhampir gets
lik dhampir has feat lines dedicated to being related to different breeds of vampire
whereas the vampire dedication...doesn't
normal badger
I see
I've been wondering whether to go dhampir for my necromancer as well — though mostly since it seems to be the closest thing PF has to Reborn (which she was in D&D)
Or I might just make her a human or something? Not sure about the backstory yet
steel bobcat
I orginally wasn't planning on doubling up, but then i started reading the dhampir feats and i was kinda like
"wow these are interesting"
so i figured hwy not just commit to th ebit
coarse vortex
i chose to be a mess
I thought playing RPGs was meant to be an escape from reality?
steel bobcat
Being a mess can be therapeutic when there aren't consequences
oh look, all the level 2 skill feats require expert proficiency
cries in alchemist
primal dragon
Huh pathfinder channel
lethal matrix
I think the Inventor can also Rocket Jump, no?
steel bobcat
Indeed
side note
why are is the magnifying scope so...
just so bad?
like the seek bonus is nice but the
"While gazing through the scope, you zoom in on your targets to make it easier to hit them at a distance. You increase the range increment of the weapon to which the scope is attached by 5 feet until the beginning of your next turn or until you're no longer wielding the weapon, whichever comes first"
the activation is
uh
like the major version for 16k gold only gives it a +20 range buff
which is...
just not great
lol
like +20 is way nicer than +5, but you're paying a fortune for that +20
clever wigeon
probably because they've seen the fuckery people got up to in 1e (and 3.5)
where the stacking of gubbins from between books that are individually okay turns into a monstrosity
coarse vortex
also, does 2e use the same range system as 1e?
I cannot remember
my brain says yes, but I might be wrong
clever wigeon
uh, i don't remember 1e's
coarse vortex
1 range value, -x for each multiple of it you go
clever wigeon
2e has a single range increment and you take a -2 penalty for shooting in the next range increment, yeah
coarse vortex
so yeah, pretty much the same
clever wigeon
and you can shoot up to six times your total range
clever wigeon
for an equivalent -10 for shooting five increments too far
steel bobcat
Yeah i get not wanting it to be abusable
i just...
y'know usable seems like a solid starting point
and i'm not really sure in what world a +5 to your range is much to shell out for
lol
especially a +5 to your range that costs you an action in the middle of a fight every turn you want to use it
it could've at least been like
"You ignore the range penalty for shooting at something in the next range increment" or something like that
clever wigeon
yeah, there are some things that are cool, and there are some things that's like "hm, this is a level 6 class feat, it probably shouldn't cost 5 gold"
but then the actual effect is ass
steel bobcat
y'know after giving the vampire archetype another once over
i'm not actually sure if i wanna play this
really neat flavor
like, almost none of the benefits you get from it make up for the really nasty drawbacks
like oh boy at 6th level i get...1d4 claws!
yay
this is kind of a shame, i was keen on this flavor but i'm mightily underwhelmed by the offerings as a whole
things get spicy at around level 10, but that's a long wait for the (relatively meh) payoff
normal badger
Lol, I also just decided that I probably won't make my necromancer a dhampir after all
In part because it seems unnecessarily edgy for a character whose aesthetic is meant to be fairly down-to-the-earth, but also because Negative Healing seems pretty annoying to deal with, with no exceptional benefit given to make up for it
steel bobcat
I really like the flavor of vampire, i'm just...less on board with the notion that it's almost entirely a net negative
there's like, a couple decent feats 10+
but even then those are only decent
i don't really expect it to be fiction-accurate levels of power, but you'd think considering how nasty the drawbacks are there'd be some value to be had in the archetype
but truthfully there really isn't
and that makes me sad
weirdly by the way
two of the actually decent feats are uncommon
on top of one of the uncommon feats being a pre-req for another not uncommon feat
so if you want your 14th level feat, you have to hope your dm lets you have the 12th level uncommon feat
normal badger
😔
steel bobcat
and if you want your 16th level feat
you have to hope you took the pre-req feat at 4th level
normal badger
Isn't the entire archetype Rare in the first place?
steel bobcat
Isn't the entire archetype Rare in the first place?
have you seen the drawbacks for the vampire archetype?
this + negative healing
normal badger
…wow
steel bobcat
yeah
it's just..
it's honestly just kinda dog shit
lol
cause you can counter the sunlight weakness at 6th
kinda
you don't just die if you get slowed to lose all your actions
but you can still be slowed to losing all of your actions
normal badger
(as a sidenote, I'm a little sad PF has no generic "kinda sorta not fully alive" race like D&D's Reborn, but only dhampirs and a couple types of actual undead)
steel bobcat
mhm, fair
normal badger
(though, having actual undead like skeletons as playable races do be kinda rad as well — at least in concept, never looked at them closely)
steel bobcat
i've heard tha tmost of the undead archetypes are
okay
not bad, not usually great
my research has led me to believe that vampire is far and away the worst of the bunch
because it has the nastiest drawbacks with functionally no redeeming features
like oh boy, who wants a 1d4 claw attack at 10th level!
or is it 6th
it's 6th
normal badger
Yeah, like… in a game like D&D or PF where drawback features are as uncommon as they are, you gotta attach some benefits to balance it out
Same issue with D&D drow and their sunlight sensitivity
steel bobcat
bonus points
that grapple the feat lets you make?
still takes your MAP
so it's at a -10
normal badger
…aaaand of course the whole thing still costs you a feat
steel bobcat
at 10th level you get a 1/Hour shapeshift!
into a bat with a 20ft fly speed!
or you can turn into mist
normal badger
magnificent
frosty scaffold
To make matters worse the innate spells you get from Vamp don't even heighten to 10th-level. Which sucks because Dominate becomes permanent at 10th-level.
I really wish both the Vampire and Zombie dedications were better tbh.
Zombie gives unarmed damage and grab damage which is like... Okay. I always thought of zombies as like tanky so why does it mostly give offensive stuff?
Vampire is just awful. I really want them to errata it like Chirurgeon got for Alchemist.
steel bobcat
i require...input
so my saturday games group line up has recently rolled out, gunslinger + rogue + cleric (maybe fighter) + alchemist (me) + the last person to decide settled on investigator
and i'm like...feeling a little iffy about them playing investigator
just because it sorta feels like the niche i had carved out has now been usurped with no real recourse on my end, since i'm an Int key ability class, and the Investigator is low-key just going to be better at all of the int related things
and i'm not sure if i'm just feeling a little too protective of my perceived niche, or if it seems like an actual valid worry
i guess
clever wigeon
hm
you're definitely still going to be better at crafting, especially if you choose to invest in that
i don't remember what subclass you are, but if you're chirurgeon you'll also have the extremely noticeable niche of being very, very good as a medic
RK stuff is investigator's wheelhouse, and it does kind of suck that they've picked it without checking in
but i don't think it'll be too big of a deal unless they're going like
alchemical sciences investigator
in which case they'll 100% be crowding out your niche, if not usurping it because you'll still have more and better alchemy
if they're alch invest, I think it'd definitely be time to talk with them and the GM
or if you're chirurgeon and they're forensics
but you're still two different classes with two different focuses and sets of mechanics, and unless you were really hoping to be fully focusing on the RK as well, you shouldn't end up feeling super threatened
if you do, though, i don't think it would exactly be unreasonable to just...have a talk with them and the GM and ask if they're willing to switch to a different class, possibly charisma-based instead of int
steel bobcat
i don't remember what subclass you are, but if you're chirurgeon you'll also hav...
I don't think they're going the alchemical sciences inves, but they've not been super talkative about what they're playing, i might still talk to the DM and get their thoughts just in case
they know the player better than i do
also yeah i'm chirurgeon
i'm gonna ask what...methodology?
i think is the investigator subclass/specialization name they're going
clever wigeon
yeah, chirurgeon should be gucci
and yep, it's investigator methodologies
the only ones to worry about are alchemical sciences and forensics, and in either case you'll still be better at alchemy and medicine
steel bobcat
well i recall vaguely that invest has both a like
yeah
those
small note, can i jsut say i kinda hate that alchemist doesn't have a feat like inventor
where it gives you scaling crafting without using skill increases
clever wigeon
small note, can i jsut say i kinda hate that alchemist doesn't have a feat like ...
it should just have it core, no feat
steel bobcat
ohhhh
steel bobcat
yeah yeah
i think i'm just gonna scrap vampire for now and go inventor dedication
work with my DM on like....making vampire a little more...uu
worthwhile
clever wigeon
oh wait i can probably
either find a decent vamp arch rework
or whip one up
i almost did for a zoanthrope thing, but then i realized that
steel bobcat
well my DM has already expressed interest in making one, but i'll sure take one to share if you know of one
clever wigeon
"wait, beastkin has fucking all of this except the better tiny-animal shapeshifting"
steel bobcat
cause wow vampire is....
like
i'm low-key surprised that made it to print cause it is nasty bad
lol
steel bobcat
hmm
i don't hate it, but it honestly doesn't fix a lot of my issues with it
namely, the vulnerabilities are still disgusting, and they didn't change a lot of the lackluster feats
mind you, i'm fine with the vulnerabilities being spicy as hell
i just...expect a degree of actual benefit for it
lol
the daywalker change is nice
the predatory claws feat is...still largely underwhelming (for me) since i'm not a martial and simply cannot really feasibly get value out of it
clever wigeon
namely, the vulnerabilities are still disgusting, and they didn't change a lot o...
i mean, that's just vampires
it's the in-setting theme
clever wigeon
the predatory claws feat is...still largely underwhelming (for me) since i'm not...
this is also fair, though
I could whip you up a different vamp archetype that's uh
a veterelana?
what kind of vamp do you want lmao
steel bobcat
it's less that i want anything specfic and more that i just wish the archetype wasn't so lackluster as a whole
clever wigeon
i'm gonna tell you, there's no way "archetype gives you 10th-level dominate" is gonna be balanced
steel bobcat
this is a free archetype, so i'm not really losing a ton of value for it being meh stat wise
it's just like
kinda fucking boring
lol
y'know?
when your dhampir ancestry feats are more interesting than your vampire archetype, you've made a misstep somewhere
clever wigeon
tbh, that's just the consequence of ancestries getting to have a lot more "little flavor benefits" in their feats
class feats aren't supposed to be ribbons, but paizo contractors don't really like
understand where non-monk unarmed attacks are supposed to be, balance-wise
steel bobcat
for me it's more like
where's my feat or two that represents being a strigoi, your feats that really play up the charm thing, or let you lean into some kind of blood magic or something
y'know?
anyway, i think in the immediate i'm just gonna take inventor and work with my dm on it and see where it goes a little more naturally
steel bobcat
i have this notion of like
reflavoring infused reagents as vampire blood
and i think that could be a neat area to explore
both flavorwise and mechanically
steal from true blood and make vamp blood just like
a little bundle of all the performance enhancing drugs rolled into one
clever wigeon
oh hey
it sounds like there's a
curious sort
an adventuring vamp, perchance
that would like
this thing
steel bobcat
me, a vampire, encouraging someone else to play a cleric knowing damn well it will only serve to hurt me
steel bobcat
and i'm not sure if i'm just feeling a little too protective of my perceived nic...
small update, the investigator has immediately run out of the way to do both crafting (with the same modifier as me) and also thievery checks (with the same modifier as the rogue)
steel bobcat
quite literally said "i know you're the rogue but i have thievery so you can do it if i fail" and then did it
like you absolute cunt of a man
clever wigeon
PVP him 
or just uhhh
let him go down in a fight and finish him off yourself :)
(or do the reasonable thing and tell the GM that it feels like this is deliberate and it's both insulting and upsetting)
steel bobcat
Yeye, talked to the DM already
Just didn't quite expect my worry to be validated so....
Blatantly
clever wigeon
yeah
like
if they'd made their investigator at about the same time
and just stumbled into doing int things and dex things
well, that's kind of understandable?
investigator is super MAD, and it's way easier to run a dexvest than a strengthvest
so "having your KAS skills" and "having dex utility" would make sense
making the character last
an int KAS character with a dual focus in dex, going the alchemy subclass, maining crafting and thievery
next to the character that was established as an alchemist and definitively a crafter, and the character that was focusing on thievery
that one's just fucking rude, no matter how the scaling ends up
steel bobcat
next to the character that was established as an alchemist and definitively a cr...
it's worth noting, i don't mind them having crafting per se, but my tolerance for that went out the window after the rogue thing happened
it's about how you handle mechanically having it
regardless, last i heard the person is planning on swapping to a different class
so, shouldn't be an issue going forward
clever wigeon
so, shouldn't be an issue going forward
...unless they swap to a dex inventor
and do the same thing
normal badger
Is there a feat that lets a Wild druid add the forms from animal form to their Wild Shape forms list? Cuz uhh… I can't find it
Also, generally, what are people's opinions on how PF handles druid shapeshifting?
obsidian zinc
if I'm dead honest I'm still not over my playtest game where a different PC on druid cast a max level dinosaur form, had their AC go down, and because their AC went down they got crit and were basically immidiately put in a hospital bad.
cedar condor
Is there a feat that lets a Wild druid add the forms from *animal form* to their...
So I'd describe both battleforms and summons as advanced mechanic spells. They're tricky to learn and harder to master, but can provide a distinct edge if used right.
So first things first, having both martial abilities and spellcasting always come with a cost in 2e.
Battleforms come generally with quite a distinct cost. 2 actions, loss of spellcasting and a max level spell slot (ideally don't even bother without).
In exchange it puts you on par with a martial progression (ranger swash rogue etc) 2 hp per level approx above your class, wearing medium armor (this is not consistent, some fall above and below this average). Importantly, this is a martial with no damage boosters (aoo, sneak attack, exploit weakness, all vanilla martials have someting)
You do get distinct benefits of sometimes small passive spells folded into your battleforms though which make the trade better. E.g. flight, energy resistance, increased size and speed.
Generally the way to get the most of battleforms is to both fill a need for a mid ac and mid tier martial and really benefit from the passive benefit
Wild shape gives you some distinct edges over vanilla battleform casters.
- You're a medium armor ac 8 hp caster class which is already premium caster defence.
- You don't need max level spell slots, you can pay with a focus point.
- Iirc base animal form takes you up to level 10 (competitively), and you can either go wild form for augmented base attacks at 11 or more feats for more level of forms.
Also 4. Feats. Druid can steal combat boosters from other classes and archetypes to boost itself. E.g. aoo, wrestling/martial maneuvers, flurry. Also druid base comes with no archetype cost access to an animal companion.
So don't expect as a full caster to beat martials at their own game, but you can between base feats and say an animal companion (and with free archetype, marshal/monk/wrestler) reach the heights of a lower tier martial while keeping full casting for when you need it.
cedar condor
Is there a feat that lets a Wild druid add the forms from *animal form* to their...
BTW wild druids as a feat get wild shape. Wild shape feat grants wild shape spell. Wild shape spell is pest form level 1 and level 2+ is max level animal form
So from character level 3 you got battle forms
normal badger
I was a bit sceptical to see that Wild Shape uses Focus Points (i.e. you start with one use between refocusing) and has such a short duration compared to D&D
But then I realized you can also use spell slots to transform additional times through normal polymorph spells
cedar condor
Well you should always be able to have atleast a 10 minute rest between fights.
normal badger
And I'm intrigued by PF having so many different battle form spells
cedar condor
If that doesn't happen your dm should combine the encounter xp and treat it as that tier challenge.
So if you have 2 moderate fights without rest, that should be ideally treated as an extreme fight (2e players shouldn't jump straight into combat without that rest)
normal badger
But yeah… is there a way to add the Animal Form shapes to Wild Shape? It seems like the most basic combat form thing but I couldn't find a feat that adds them
cedar condor
What do you mean add?
Heightened (2nd) You can also wild shape into the forms listed in animal form.
normal badger
Like, by default Wild Shape only lets you use Pest Form forms, and then you use feats to expand that range of options, no?
…I'm dumb
Btw, do I see it correctly that Wild order essentially starts with two order spells but only one focus point?
cedar condor
Yes
normal badger
welp
cedar condor
Champion is in the same boat with cleric iirc. Its rare that you get more focus points at level 1
Broadly, 1 extra focus point equals 1 max level-1 spell slot (to a minimum of 1) provided its not to cast cursebound oracle focus spells
normal badger
Just find it odd that you effectively get a second order spell instead of your order feat
cedar condor
Well it's effectively get a level 1 feat. That feat is on par with domain initiate from cleric.
normal badger
Fair. I'm not really familiar with how other classes do it yet, only looked at wizard and summoner so far
But yeah, I imagine the shorter duration makes it more difficult to use Wild Shape for utility things
Like, outside of the insect feat, best you can do is like… one hour?
cedar condor
But yeah, I imagine the shorter duration makes it more difficult to use Wild Sha...
Iirc there's a feat which extends it, but lowers the effective level
normal badger
Yeah but that still caps at an hour
normal badger
You can go up to 24 hours with another feat, but only as an insect
Which is, like… neat for infiltration, but other utility uses like providing transportation for other party members still get difficult
normal badger
Oh, and something else. How viable is it to begin a Pathfinder game at level 0, that is, with only ancestry and background but no class?
I've seen it done in D&D, and I feel like with how in PF you get hit points with your ancestry, it might actually work more smoothly here
steel bobcat
Oh, and something else. How viable is it to begin a Pathfinder game at level 0, ...
There are actually level 0 rules within the system
normal badger
:O
steel bobcat
:O
you cool if i DM you?
actually ignore me
i'm so used to 5e https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1344
normal badger
Thanks!
clever wigeon
But yeah, I imagine the shorter duration makes it more difficult to use Wild Sha...
if you want full permanence on your shapeshifting, I'd look at kitsune for an at-will permanent pest form, but keep in mind that as a focus spell, the short duration just means that you can't engage in super long-term inflitration
you can still skulk around, find a quiet spot to meditate and Refocus, and repeat
it is kind of lame that Perfect Form Control is a level 18 feat, though
it should at least be 14 or 16, imo
normal badger
if you want full permanence on your shapeshifting, I'd look at kitsune for an at...
Yeah, I looked at those
I'm not that much into anthro species tho, so the kitsune heritages with a tailless form instead of a fox form are more interesting to me (both would be ideal but I don't think that's possible?)
clever wigeon
I'm not that much into anthro species tho, so the kitsune heritages with a taill...
weak
but also
clever wigeon
hybrid form is stinky
it's one of those things that you'd expect to be in 1e, not 2e
normal badger
Why tho
clever wigeon
the "wait, why the fuck is this worded like this" feats
while in hybrid form, your foxlike features make it obvious that you aren't a normal humanoid
it's not like
"oh yeah, if you don't cover yourself up, it's obvious something's sussy"
it's full-stop, no exceptions, "you are obviously not what you look like and nothing can change this"
making it almost entirely useless to be in hybrid form rather than just...kitsune form
except for the aesthetics of being a human with fox ears and a tail
so you can be the foxgirl or whatever
but like
level 5 feat for flavor and near-zero real utility?
that one should be under the "too bad to be true" general rule
normal badger
Yeah, the level 5 prereq does seem kinda dumb
clever wigeon
but there's not like...an especially clean way of doing that, other than just saying "okay, common sense applies, just cover your claws or whatever"
and it feels like that wording could have been added easily enough that it's...not intended?
which just seems dumb and bad
and i want errata or something
but it's such a trivial feat that i doubt it's ever gonna see anything unless someone plays a kitsune on a podcast and talks about it or smth
normal badger
It's just… I wanna get rid of the snout, but if I just chill in tailless form all the time I might as well just play a human
Pro gamer move: be a kitsune, use tailless form, put on fake fox ears and tails
Btw, I assume any feat that says that you do something with xour tail (e.g. Foxfire) requires you to have a tail to use it?
clever wigeon
yeah
clever wigeon
It's just… I wanna get rid of the snout, but if I just chill in tailless form al...
say you're a pug-kitsune lmfao
your family selectively bred themselves for short snouts
normal badger
pfff
You know what, fuck it
Imma make a normal kitsune and get Myriad Forms at 5th
When I say I don't like anthro species, that's mostly just me being bad at drawing animal faces
But I shall try
Though, as a side note, I find "myriad" to be a somewhat exaggerated phrasing to say "three" 
On a different note, my character concept just did a mitosis
I now have two separate character concepts in mind — one shape-shifting human druid and one kitsune who isn't a druid
Might make the kitsune a monk
Possibly with the Foxfire feat; a ranged unarmed strike sounds funky
Flurry of Blows seems… a little meh though, due to MAP
Although, I suppose it has merit if you use both of the remaining actions for other things
normal badger
Ah wait, fists are agile by default. Neat
normal badger
Though, one thing about kitsune from mythology that I'd have liked to see in the game is that theme of the fox tail carrying over to the humanoid form, requiring the kitsune to hide it if they want to pass for human
steel bobcat
i have discovered that pf2e has a mortar
i am now contemplating the applicability of building a man-portable mortar for my alchemist
and yes i am aware of the bomb launcher
but that thing sound uggy
elfin brook
Someday they will port over siege wizard
cedar condor
i am now contemplating the applicability of building a man-portable mortar for m...
Tbh level 10 alchs can pretty easily become mortars in their own rights.
10ft burst, with a few feats, free archetype, easily can reach 120ft effective range.
steel bobcat
So our DM is talking about doing like
dual classing eventually
and i'm kinda like...
inventor + alchemist go brr??
though i already have the inventor dedication so i probably wouldn't
but i'm really not sure what i would even dual class into
steel bobcat
chirurgeon and
8 Str, 14 dex, 10 con, 18 int, 16 wis, 12 cha
it might actually be 14 wis and 14 cha, i don't exactly remember and the foundry is closed atm
or maybe it's 14 wis and 12 cha?
semantics
cedar condor
Hmm pre level 5?
steel bobcat
level 2 ye
no idea when we'd be dual classing if we even end up doing it so actually planning for it is a bit of a dead end lol
party consists of
Rogue, Alchemist (me), Gunslinger, Monk and Cleric
Rogue is thinking Psychic for his dual, Gunslinger is thinking maybe fighter, Monk and Cleric unknown
(rogue is speced for charisma shenanigans)
cedar condor
no idea when we'd be dual classing if we even end up doing it so actually planni...
How high is your jank tolerance and how little do you want things to change
The boring answer is to play an int caster. Which is a silly amount of resource management
You could go investi or thaum and leverage some decent abilities
steel bobcat
i like resource management
i was atually thinking of going summoner, specifically for the thematic of like
vampire summoning famulus/monster to do the fighting for them
but i also realize that's gonna be....action intensive to say the least
so much so that i'm not sure it'd be even vaguely viable lol
cedar condor
You can play low casting stat summoner.
But yes you likely want all 3 actions as an alch.
So any dual class will likely need synergies or pivot with alch
steel bobcat
..bard could be neat actually
would anything particularly break if bard were turned into an Int caster? (also possibly thaum?)
It doesn't seem like it would but
oh wow, one of the bard subclasses just straight up lets you have access to all of the spellists at 18th level
that's wild
clever wigeon
8 Str, 14 dex, 10 con, 18 int, 16 wis, 12 cha
you def need 16 dex unfortunately
alch is really hard to build, specifically because its required statline is super tight
in that you need both 18 int and a 16 in your physical stat
otherwise your accuracy goes to shit really hard
steel bobcat
i might honestly already have it
like i mentioned up there, the foundry is closed so i can't double check right now
clever wigeon
Possibly with the Foxfire feat; a ranged unarmed strike sounds funky
also if you're interested in ranged unarmed
may i also introduce you to
one of my favorite monk stances
right, this was the actual feat
blargh
normal badger
Huh, interesting
Hmm… wait
Does it make a difference when an attack is called an "unarmed attack" but it doesn't explicitly say that it has the Unarmed trait?
Cuz Wild Winds Stance specifies that the attacks have the Unarmed trait, while Foxfire does not, but both call the granted attack an "unarmed attack" or "unarmed Strike"
steel bobcat
....
this...
this cake doesn't have a duration
this cake can look like anything
and doesn't have a duration
the cake is the most powerful lie???
This cake is the only thing you need to be a successful forger
You can literally "but it was secretly a cake!" your way through so much shit it's not even funny
normal badger
this is so dumb
steel bobcat
I am
Flabbergasted and entertained
And I'm absolutely going to abuse it once just to see what reactions I can get from my table
Need to collect the pieces of 8?
Show me pictures and I gotchu
Need to steal a scroll and not get caught right away?
Replace it with cake
Indiana jones?
Cake.
Of course there'd need to be pre-planning
You'd need to make the cake beforehand to have it stick around longer than a turn
Need to fake an explosive?
Cake.
Hold a room of people hostage with a fake cake bomb
Bonus points if you add a wick you occasionally light to fuck with them
I wonder if a cake based holy symbol would scare a vampire
Can't imagine why it wouldn't if you believed it would
normal badger
I love it
steel bobcat
Pf2e culinary terrorism is not the topic I expected to uncover today but here we are
clever wigeon
Does it make a difference when an attack is called an "unarmed attack" but it do...
nah, it's
really weird?
but
"unarmed strikes" by definition have the unarmed trait
it's just sometimes the writers forget to list it
normal badger
ah, neat
normal badger
Potential kitsune character 
next dune
Ooooo
clever wigeon
noice
steel bobcat
hmmmm
adorable, but also not enough tails
if it's not a viably combat strategy to drown someone in tail fluff you're doing it wrong nodnod
normal badger
adorable, but also not enough tails
Actually… are there any rules on when you gain more tails?
normal badger
Hold on, let me doublecheck
steel bobcat
oh no, it's spellcasting based
Additionally, when you gain a level, you can grow one or more tails. Your maximum number of tails is equal to the level of the highest-level spell you can cast from your spell slots or non-cantrip kitsune innate spells, or 1 + your number of kitsune ancestry feats, whichever is higher, to a maximum of nine tails.
so it's both
normal badger
Where is this from?
normal badger
Oh, it never occurred to me to read that header paragraph lol
normal badger
Okay, so she could start with two tails
steel bobcat
i say mostly cause of the foxfire thing, which technically imposes a mechanical function on one tail
normal badger
Yeah
Though, I'd probably start with one tail and then jump to three at level 5
Two looks weird imo
steel bobcat
"Well that a weird feeling"
"ah."
"sigh, guess i'm getting my armor altered again."
normal badger
laughs in monk
normal badger
only if you wear pants
steel bobcat
shit, fair
normal badger
Could also imagine a hakama-style garment where the back part doesn't go up as high
next dune
that is also true
normal badger
If you have a fox form, does it also have your full number of tails or just one?
steel bobcat
man, i'm a little sad the campaign with my kitsune alchemist didn't work out
i had a whole giga brain strat planned out
our ranger had a vulture companion
i was a tiny creature
and yeah i know i know, technically the vulture was too but
air dropping explosives from the back of a vulture
normal badger
that does kinda sound rad
steel bobcat
man, i'm a little sad the campaign with my kitsune alchemist didn't work out
note, the group didn't die
we jsut had someone leave the table and sort of collectively decided to just start a different campaign rather than rewrite things
now i'm
Vivienne De Sang, pirate chirgurgeon and vampire, alongside her alchemical familiar Ezmerelda
normal badger
Vivienne De Sang, pirate chirgurgeon and vampire, alongside her alchemical famil...
Ooh, she looks cool
steel bobcat
mind you, we're currently in the midst of a prison break
so i have no equipement
meaning i'm largely functioning as the party brain
oh no, i'm currently in the lead with kill
we used a heavy door to trip up our guard and the gunslinger wrestled them to the floor
i took the initiative and used his own sword to slit his throat
normal badger
normal badger
hehe
steel bobcat
tbf tho
once i get my alchemical tools everything becomes....more preordained
largely because i can make 7 horns of gunpowder
and just blow a few walls to smithereens on my way out
i hadn't planned on the gunpowder crafting being so immediately useful
but uh
boy is it gonna be
normal badger
I was actually also considering a prison break-ish scenario as a starting point for that campaign I'm planning to run that might or might not be a Pathfinder campaign
Though like, the overall story idea isn't really concrete enough for that to be a consideration at this point tbh
steel bobcat
so the campaign is actually going to be nautical in nature
we're technically at a prison for naval criminals
steel bobcat
the kind of prison people go to be forgotten
normal badger
Though like, aren't swim speeds kinda weird in PF?
steel bobcat
parvus local, small place
normal badger
I saw an ancestry somewhere that gave like, a 10 ft. swim speed
steel bobcat
Though like, aren't swim speeds kinda weird in PF?
so i believe th ewa it works
is that all creatures can climb and swim by default
but if you don't have a speed for it, you're considered flat footed while doing it
i think certain instances of them also add extra goodies like only need one free hand to climb and stuff like that
"A climb Speed allows you to move up or down inclines and vertical surfaces. Instead of needing to attempt Athletics checks to Climb, you automatically succeed and move up to your climb Speed instead of the listed distance.
You might still have to attempt Athletics checks to Climb in hazardous conditions, to Climb extremely difficult surfaces, or to cross horizontal planes such as ceilings. You can also choose to roll an Athletics check to Climb rather than accept an automatic success in hopes of getting a critical success. Your climb Speed grants you a +4 circumstance bonus to Athletics checks to Climb.
If you have a climb Speed, you’re not flat-footed while climbing."
"With a swim Speed, you can propel yourself through the water with little impediment. Instead of attempting Athletics checks to Swim, you automatically succeed and move up to your swim Speed instead of the listed distance. Moving up or down is still moving through difficult terrain.
You might still have to attempt checks to Swim in hazardous conditions or to cross turbulent water. You can also choose to roll an Athletics check to Swim rather than accept an automatic success in hopes of getting a critical success. Your swim Speed grants you a +4 circumstance bonus to Athletics checks to Swim.
Having a swim Speed doesn’t necessarily mean you can breathe in water, so you might still have to hold your breath if you’re underwater to avoid drowning."
gross, needing to attempt a check just to swim
climbing i get, swimming i take a little more offense too
lol
normal badger
Though, the swimming rules say that the check usually auto-succeeds in normal calm water
steel bobcat
you either know how to swim or you don't
ah, there is indeed a dedicated swim action
what are those success clauses
"You propel yourself through water. In most calm water, you succeed at the action without needing to attempt a check. If you must breathe air and you’re submerged in water, you must hold your breath each round. If you fail to hold your breath, you begin to drown. If the water you are swimming in is turbulent or otherwise dangerous, you might have to attempt an Athletics check to Swim.
If you end your turn in water and haven’t succeeded at a Swim action that turn, you sink 10 feet or get moved by the current, as determined by the GM. However, if your last action on your turn was to enter the water, you don’t sink or move with the current that turn.
Critical Success You move through the water 10 feet, plus 5 feet per 20 feet of your land Speed (a total of 15 feet for most PCs).
Success You move through the water 5 feet, plus 5 feet per 20 feet of your land Speed (a total of 10 feet for most PCs).
Critical Failure You make no progress, and if you’re holding your breath, you lose 1 round of air."
normal badger
Actually, how does auto-succeeding interact with critical successes? Do you just automatically get a normal success, or can you still roll to see if you crit, and if you fail it's treated as a regular success?
steel bobcat
i assume it would say critical success if it were a critical success
normal badger
So like, the water needs to be rough enough that you don't auto-succeed in order to get the chance to crit? That seems weird
Hmm, seems like the 10 ft. swim speed is basically the same as always succeeding normally on a swim check
Lol, an Undine needs to be level 9 to be able to get a swim speed equal to their land speed
Aren't they like, the water heritage?
Huh nvm, seems like some other ancestries are much faster in the water by default
Still, level 9 prereq for an ancestry feat that just gives you a 25 ft. swim speed seems odd
clever wigeon
yeah, that's how climb and swim work
clever wigeon
Aren't they like, *the* water heritage?
undines are just the "apply wet to anything" heritage
we don't have anything really aquatic other than azarketi, yet
outside of a couple specific heritages like the swamp iruxi
god i want a water book
normal badger
And azarketi have that weird water dependency thing everyone is annoyed about with the locathah in D&D
elfin brook
A water book is guaranteed
elfin brook
There are like fifteen aquatic central races in 1e
clever wigeon
yeah, it's just
elfin brook
If none of them get ported I'll be surprised
clever wigeon
there's so much going on in the schedule
so water book, while inevitable
is "eventually" inevitable
steel bobcat
hmm, yea i need to find a wa yto get my hands on a swim speed quite quickly i think
i believe there's a low level alchemical item that can help with that cause boy that -1 to str isn't looking pretty right now
wait..you can/have to be trained in swimming?
oh wait no, nvm, that's the DC rating thing
normal badger
To get a swim speed, you just need to get the Quick Swim feat and become legendary in Athletics
steel bobcat
that does not help me with the athletics roll involved lol
steel bobcat
wtf, that's cool
steel bobcat
god it's almost making me want to like, lean into that
normal badger
you have to alter clothes too
I just realized… all those clothes with tail cut-outs near your butt are gonna look somewhat strange once you shapeshift into humanoid form 
elfin brook
I've seen a mermaid PC who used a wheelchair on land because it was faster than hobbling around
That was pretty good
elfin brook
At this point every adventurer should be in a wheelchair
normal badger
How difficult is encounter balancing in PF? Like, I assume there is some kind of system to provide a guideline, but I'm wondering if it's actually useful, or like D&D where the wonky CR system and unrealistic expectations of how many encounters fit into one day make it somewhat unreliable
brave marsh
My GM said he likes it. Someone has gone unconscious at least once per encounter. Although, we've never quite gotten to the point where "this next roll decides if I live or die." There was one point where everyone except one person was unconscious and we still made it out. Based on the dozen encounters we've had, I would say I am more confident that the PCs are going to be challenged AND make it out alive (even if by the skin of their teeth) as opposed to D&D 5e where it could be a by the book built encounter and you could wipe or breeze through it.
normal badger
That sounds reassuring. Thanks!
clever wigeon
How difficult is encounter balancing in PF? Like, I assume there is some kind of...
it actually works
Severe means Severe
Extreme means "you are likely to TPK"
the higher-level you go, the more feasible Severe and Extreme fights become, and at like
15+, multiple Extreme encounters in a day are cleanly doable by a competent, synergistic team, but uh
even then, bad rolls or a single fuck-up can trash you
and the other guideline is that: I would never use a single PL+3 creature until level 3 or 4, at least, and wouldn't use a single PL+4 until maybe 7 or 10, depending on how good the players are and how effective the party comp is
Severe encounters will fuck you up, Moderate encounters can be dangerous, and Extreme encounters will flatten your dick if you're unprepared or make mistakes
normal badger
neat neat
As encounter balancing issues are one of the main reasons that I've shied away from DMing D&D so far, this certainly seems like a strong point in favor of using Pathfinder for my campaign
cedar condor
Pf2e +0 (moderate) starts where 5e deadly is.
+2 encounters have a slim risk of player death. +3 severe, a solid risk of player death.
+4 extreme, and you're looking very likely at TPK or atleast one player death, unless they're absolutely prepared
+2 encounters only need a few bad crits for the tables to turn
normal badger
I see
clever wigeon
if you're in a good position to, i'd suggest running the Beginner Box
it gives a very good idea of the threat level of Moderate and Severe encounters
normal badger
I might. Though, there's a chance that some players in my group have already played the adventure from that
steel bobcat
Not my masochistic ass contemplating a dual classed alchemist and wizard
also, on a scale of 1-10, how good of an excuse for not wanting to be healed by a cleric is "I have seen the lives of too many flow from them where the mercy of the divine could've saved them, and i close my eyes at night wondering how any being could embrace death as the gods do. If i am bleeding out and screaming in agony, if the only recourse is to touch me with the so called blessing of your gods, then leave me to die like they have so many others."
I'm torn between if i really wanna commit to the bit and just deny any and all divine magic cast on me, but i also sorta feel like that might end up being a detriment to the party as a whole
normal badger
Isn't there that one background that actually makes you immune to healing magic?
steel bobcat
is there?
normal badger
Hold on
You're trained in the Crafting skill and the Medicine skill. You gain the Battle Medicine skill feat, and a +1 circumstance bonus to saving throws against spells. Healing spells, healing magic items, and magical effects with the healing trait have no effect on you.
normal badger
Fair
I'm also not sure yet if negative healing is really something I want to deal with
Probably just gonna go hooman instead of dhampir tbh. Dhampir doesn't perfectly fit the concept anyway, it's just the closest PF has
steel bobcat
i mea i full yintend to like, lean into the vampire thing
i'm just not starting as one
cause my DM and I are gonna work on making it work for us
normal badger
Neat
steel bobcat
but yeah the idea is like
they were sort of dissilussioned (as a healer) with the gods who give out healing magic to people who then don't always use it, on top of her then (eventually) being "turned" (flavoring Dhampir as a partially turned vampire, she takes a special formula that keeps her from turning completely.) and now being a healer, and also being stung by divine healing
normal badger
Interesting
Especially for a vampire-adjacent character, I imagine the whole divine magic thing can pose an intriguing dilemma
cedar condor
Mortal healing and godless healing exist
steel bobcat
ye i know
cedar condor
But denying all divine magic might be rough with some aoe support spells.
steel bobcat
but also then i have to follow the laws of mortality
normal badger
Yep! Mortal requires you to follow a dumb religion for some reason tho
normal badger
Godless Healing doesn't have that requirement yet tho
steel bobcat
although godless healing isn't...that great for the rest of hte party
outside of the "keeps the healer alive longer" bit
lol
so far i actually don't have a ton of my general feats planned
simply because like, i'm not wholly sure how we're gonna settle on the vampire rework
normal badger
fair
steel bobcat
i plan to pick up battle medicine as soon as possible
because like
yes
though i bit the bullet and grabbed assurance crafting instead of battle medicine for my first skill feat
just because like, alchemist
chirurgeon
so
like everything i bring to the table is reliant on crafting
lmao
cedar condor
Tbh I've been surprised how much chiurgeon improved.
But yeah expert crafting from archetypes is rough
steel bobcat
we're doing free archetypes tbh
so i started with inventor specifically to grab the feat it has that just gives you scaling crafting
After that....
medic maybe?
maybe vampire
again, kinda depends on what we come up with
steel bobcat
well, yeah
we have a cleric who is planning on dual classing druid eventually so like
we already basically have like, keeping the party healthy very covered
i'm just not sure what else i plan to go for
as i mentioned earlier, i'm contemplating just
really choosing violence and dual classing alchemist + wizard
there's always the semi-wild card option and doing bard
bard + captivator archetype could be fun
cedar condor
I'd mbe go thaum
cedar condor
I'd pick up weapon crossbow gauntlet at 5
So you can do bomber stuff with thaum boosting.
Even as a chiurgeon
steel bobcat
I was actually sorta thinking of trying to lean into poisons
we're doing a pirate themed campaign, which should generally have us up against humanoids
steel bobcat
oh yes don't worry
i grabbed skunk bombs
what i really wanna get is a mortar
use that fucker to launch my bombs?
cedar condor
Far lobber, uncanny bombs, sniping duo is a good start
steel bobcat
my DM doesn't know it yet, but i'm planning on putting tallow bombs in the cannons too
cedar condor
If you do go thaum take sympathetic weakness
cedar condor
I'm playing a free archetype thaum at higher levels with demolitionist and gunslinger.
steel bobcat
god i've contemplated gunslinger a lot
cedar condor
Sympathetic splash is scary
steel bobcat
if we didn't already have one that would be an easy dual class grab
cedar condor
Thaum dipped into gunslinger*
steel bobcat
i think
maybe i'll become a lich
weirdly enough, that's pretty viable
i have been eyeing the artillerist dedication
just cause like
commit to the bit as the party brains, i'm now on heavy weapon's duty too
"There are generally few things as ill-advised as being shot out of a cannon or launched by a trebuchet, but people use the tactic every so often in a desperate situation. While it's more humane to use this strategy with mindless constructs or undead, occasionally an exceedingly foolhardy adventurer demands the opportunity to try it. Loading a creature requires two additional Load actions, which you must conduct personally. The creature must be willing, unconscious, or restrained throughout the process, and the siege weapon must be physically capable of firing the creature in question, based on their size and shape. Typically, that means ballistas don't qualify, for example—nor do auto-catapults which require specifically-sized balls—but normal catapults and onagers work just fine. When you Launch the weapon, if the weapon usually targets an area, you target a single 5-foot square instead. The siege weapon deals its normal damage to its target, or to the modified area, and to the creature fired."
m...
mmmmmmmmm
loads monk/barbarian with malicious intent
steel bobcat
You know, i vaguely recall that
i think i heard my parents talking about it once
and saying that somehow makes me feel both old and young
at once
and i do not like it
steel bobcat
hmm
i've had the idea of doing a like
alchemist + psychic dual class
which could be fun
go like, infinite eye or something
steel bobcat
i've got this notion of like
"As a physician it is my charge to keep an eye on the well being of my patients, be it their physical or mental health."
and psychic sounds a bit like it could fit that flavor
next dune
Yeah, that does sound like it could fit that. I really like that idea
stable ferry
next dune
Huh... That's interesting and well welcomed
stable ferry
removing alignment is great
elfin brook
I imagine the original books will become collector's items as they won't be printed anymore
next dune
Yeah, they probably will
steel bobcat
Dr. Vivienne De Sang and her partner in crime, Ezmerelda
steel cobalt
heyo, new to pathfinder. Is there somewhere to start looking at the basics of builds? im tryna find some jank or niche builds
clever wigeon
mm, what exactly are you looking for?
it's pretty easy to make a build that works
just gotta max your Key Ability Score (18 at 1 and keep going) and try to max out your AC
but what do you mean by jank?
normal badger
Is starting with 16 in your key ability an issue?
brave marsh
No, but obviously it would be better if it were 18 instead.
clever wigeon
Is starting with 16 in your key ability an issue?
no, since you're only -1 at 50% of the levels
a number of classes have to start at 16
inventor, thaumaturge, investigator (which kind of counts less since it can apply int through DaS), and the weapon casters like battle oracle and warpriest
but lower than that and you're now a full proficiency rank behind the expected math, which you will feel
pretty regularly
casters have to be even more careful, since sometimes they'll need to force hits against enemies' good saves instead of their bad one, and at that point you need every +1 you can get
it's also harder to land a given spell than a Strike, too
normal badger
I see
I've been wondering cuz I have a druid character concept in mind but my preferred background doesn't have the option to increase Wis
cosmic shadow
also keep in mind your background should have 1 stat increase that is a choice of 2 and one that is completely free so you should be able to boost wis
normal badger
Yeah, I picked, like, the one background that has only one stat increase and that one has to be Str, Dex, or Con
clever wigeon
just to be sure: you have GM permission for that, right?
normal badger
Bold of you to assume I even have a GM to get permission from
As with 90% of characters I make, this is just a theorycraft for now
steel cobalt
but what do you mean by jank?
like, im looking for things that create interesting interactions or bend the system a bit
like, in dnd 5e, everything is either attack rolls or saving throws, so playing a grappler interacts with the game on a separate axis and gives you a strength in an area that the rules of the game simply don't prepare for.
similarly, playing something like an order cleric, a thief rogue, or a mass summoner skews the action economy very far in your favor because of bounded accuracy and the normative action economy.
so i guess im looking for something similar: either something that interacts with the game rules on a non-standard axis, or something that utilizes the system's core assumptions to do something unintended.
After a basic lookover, my first guess here was to focus on buffing allies to-hit and debuffing enemy AC, because crits on 10+ seems very strong and i would assume it's possible to give that at least a 75% crit chance in near-optimal situations.
clever wigeon
like, im looking for things that create interesting interactions or bend the sys...
nope
"unbalancing the game through unintended shenanigans that slipped through the cracks" isn't in 2e's wheelhouse
that's more of a pf1e/dd3.5/dd5e thing
steel cobalt
thats fine, nobody creates a perfect system. I'm here for da jank
steel cobalt
more specific question: are there any auras or self-radial buffs/debuffs that stand out? any that I should take a look at or that are generally fun?
clever wigeon
pf2e uses a system of intra-level bounded accuracy, meaning that numbers will always be at a set range compared to each other within the relevant variance of +4/-4 levels
you can't stack bonuses of the same type or penalties of the same type with each other, so you don't get to like