#Achievements with mods or without ironman

245 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

left saffron
#

Why are we back to the ancient policy of enforcing ironman and no mods for achievement runs?
How it works now in CK3 and Victoria 3 is great. Why do we have to go back on this?
If people want to cheat, they can always cheat anyway, this just limits the options for players.

faint flume
#

Or at least probably not

left saffron
#

Well, time for us to speak up then

sudden mauve
#

we hgave been and they dont bdge

granite vector
#

I could live with the ironman requirement, but the fact that modding practically anything, even localization, will alter the checksum is ridiculous. For multiplayer maybe that's sensible, but tying all that to achievement eligibility makes no sense.

left saffron
#

Yes, it just works so good in Victoria 3. I have a bunch of small mods, not game breaking, and I can do achievements. This just limits the game (In si gle player for .. sake) for no reason except one man's conviction...

white pawn
#

yeah it's a really stupid policy, ironman has been able to be bypassed since forever, hell you can just copy and past your savegame

#

you could use SAM to just give yourself all the achievements in a second

viral pike
# faint flume Afaik this was a personal preference of Johan, so it’s not changing unfortunatel...

personal preference is not a good reason for this. (not saying youre saying its okay)

eu5 combines a lot of mechanical features from so many other paradox games, and a lot of people coming from ck3 and vic3 are in for a really big disappointment when they see this.

its just incredibly elitist design, especially considering that not every accessibility option in the world is going to be in eu5, and if you have a mod that changes fonts to be readable if you have, say, dyslexia, and you want achievements, you are shit out of luck.

nobody really gets achievements in vic3 and ck3 with cheats specifically, because thats not really the fun part of the game, people get achievements because they want to go through the process of doing something.

it is not a zero sum thing here. adding the option for people to play not on iron man and with mods with achievements does not take away other people's abilities to do that. alot of the people who support taking this away are such diehards for it they definitely wont cave to the temptation of not playing on iron man or with mods too so its not like its taking anything away from them

#

i also 100% guarantee give it a few weeks and someone will make some kind of program that patches it because that exists for eu4 too

#

sorry not sorry but if you dont like the idea of being able to get achievements without iron man and with mods you are holding an incredibly elitist opinion

#

because it takes nothing away from you to have the option

#

not to even mention the fact that sometimes mods are required to make the game far more readable in other languages

#

take it from a french translator for EU4

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/please-make-achievements-acquirable-with-mods-active.1662328/page-3

"Then try playing EU4 or any other PDX game with another language than English and you'll think very, very differently.

And believe me, I know what I'm speaking about: I'm the French translator of EU4.

In the current, public version of EU4, for French I have 9,017 lines of script in my scripted triggers file, and 191,832 lines of scripts in my custom_script file.

Despite of that, the translation is largely unsatisfying without a complementary mod that allows translating tons of other things: characters names, province names, battle names, war names, dynasty names, etc. And this complementary mod disallows achievements.

So what's offered a French-speaking player is either achievements, or a more correct French translation.

And I won't speak here of players that want to play the game in Russian, Italian or Turkish. They could say you exactly the same thing as me, which will be my conclusion: even if you see this as unkind, I can't see how you could be more wrong about your assumptions of who EU4 players are when not in your own comfort zone. "

#

"If you remember EUIV 1.0, we had such sentences as "Le Archiduchesse de Autriche est puissant" or "États-Unis a attaqué Angleterre".
That's not the case anymore since 2017, when the scripted localization variables have been implemented in the game. I've worked hundreds of hours on that since that date, to get such things as "L'archiduchesse d'Autriche est puissante", or "Les États-Unis ont attaqué l'Angleterre."

If you want to evaluate the situation, let's do a very short test: just erase the localization file localisation/custom_localisation_l_french.yml and launch the game in French. Then you'll see everything that relies on these 200,000 lines of script.

But that's still not enough, far from that.

Have you ever launched the game with France, 1792 bookmark, to be faced with the "War of the First Coalition", in English in the text?
And do you know that not having characters named like "John Calvin" instead of "Jean Clavin" needs perpetual discussions and reminders to the devs?
As for such nations as Timurids: do you think "Timurid" is the French name of the dynasty? And should we speak about the province names, that confuse English, the local language and French?

So yes, I've worked as a madman on everything I could. But I can't say I'm satisfied with the current situation, as there's still far too much issues."

#

sorry to say it but the current year is not 2013, paradox games have progressed and allowed people to play their own way far more, and that is without a doubt a far more player focused way of design

#

it sucks so bad too because paradox is an incredibly mod friendly company

#

as someone whos made a mod for ck3 there were so many resources for me to learn how to mod the game and it was made purposefully accessible but this type of design just feels like a slap in the face

thorny geyser
#

I want my graphical, ui, music mods

white pawn
#

but if we allow people to save their games and reload whenever they want without having to jump through hoops and manually copy their save games how will we preserve the sanctity of the e-peen measuring contest that is steam achievements? if someone can't read the text without a mod that is clearly a skill issue and they should just learn to read properly so I can preserve my e-peen-points smh

thorny geyser
left saffron
thorny geyser
viral pike
#

there’s an argument i see sometimes too that argues that it takes away the enjoyment of some people who hunt for achievements

#

my take is that while it may take away some enjoyment it can fundamentally take away the ability to play for a lot more people who speak other languages and require language patches or font changes

#

not having this accessibility actively harms and for some takes away the experience

viral pike
#

because like what’s the worst possible case scenario if achievement hunters enjoy the game slightly less?

#

it’s most likely not going to play another grand strategy, gsg players are some of the most dedicated to specific games, and even if they do it’s gonna be another paradox game

#

trading some small amount of people’s enjoyment for the ability for a larger amount of people to be able to enjoy the game and in some cases access the game, is a no brainer

#

i love playing ck3 with vanilla plus mods

#

some of them fundamentally change the way you play the game and it’s incredible

#

obfusKate makes it impossible to know anything about anybody you talk to and obfuscates any stat roll information, it’s a game changer and is very intense

#

but it’s so fun

#

and i can still get achievements

#

it may seem like a small thing but achievements are incredible markers for goals

left saffron
#

Also, it doesnt make achievement hunters enjoy it less. Only elitist achievement hunters who cares about other people's achievements.

viral pike
#

honestly speaking not a demographic i’d want to appease

clear pawn
#

It was pointed out on the forums that disallowing mods is an accessibility nightmare. There's a lot of varied needs out there and modders are much more able to address niche issues than Paradox is, and making it so that people have to choose between those mods and achievments is shitty

left saffron
#

Yeah, there is 100 arguments against lockign achievemnts and literally just 1 against...

clear pawn
still moon
#

If you're judging your achievements based on how others may potentially be getting them that says a lot more about you than it does about us tbh.

-# And there is literally software that can give you all achievements with the click of a button, shouldn't you be worried about that?

still moon
white pawn
white pawn
viral pike
#

there is no decent argument against it because there exists two games where its far more relaxed and it is Literally fine

white pawn
#

exactly

viral pike
#

theres no hypotheticals to be made like "hey but WHAT IF this happened" because ck3 and vic 3 exist

#

and its just Fine in those

white pawn
#

but look at how many people have unlocked this achievement, clearly victoria 3 is filled with people modding to get all the achievements instantly

Capture.PNG
thorny geyser
viral pike
#

font and language mods fall under ui mods

#

but like even then what is the harm in allowing achievements for content mods

#

it certainly didnt destroy ck3 or vic3

still moon
left saffron
still moon
#

The risks outweigh the benefits by a lot

thorny geyser
#

And you just exclude the important files from the calculation

upper valley
#

This is such an annoying policy. I hated it in EU4 and I hate it in EU5

#

Achievements being tied to Ironman in an unstable game that has 40-50 hours runs is just silly

#

HOI4 and Vicky 3 has significant shorter runs than EU5 or EU4 does.

viral pike
#

im fairly sure all thats happening is literally jsut a check to see if the checksum is the same

#

if its not then achievmenets are disabled

white pawn
#

anyone got word on how the ironman bypasser program is progressing?

viral pike
#

idk i didn’t say there was gonna be one definitively but im willing to bet money that there will be one because this community is full of modders

white pawn
#

there have been for hoi4 and eu4

#

so there will probably be one for eu5

viral pike
#

another thing, apparently this is a thing

#

theres a console command you can do in debug mode thatll esesntially increase your game speed by like 40% because it disables tick speed limit

#

if you had say,

#

a mod

#

that only modified this

#

that would disable achievements

#

pretty annoying

sinful cypress
#

+1000000 please just do what Victoria 3 did and allow achievements with mods and without ironman, I thought we learnt that this is a better system already paradox

#

i dont even mind having to use iron man, but a UI mod should not make it so i cant get achievements

white pawn
#

still no enabler for achievements on non-ironman games 😔

naive estuary
#

+1. I'm really looking forward to the inevitable country mission trees mod to give direction and playing with immersive mods. But at the same time, I'm really interested in achievements.

white pawn
#

and no achievements enabled in the latest patch

left saffron
#

havent seen them say a single word about it either way, guess they just ignoring us

white pawn
#

how would the ebic awesom gamers measure their e-peens against each other if people were allowed to play the game without ironman mode?

clear pawn
#

Honestly embarrassing stuff from them

ripe crest
#

Ironman needs to be preserved. At least so it makes life more difficult for the cheaters

tawny spindle
#

I think cosmetic mods and bug fixes should be allowed at least

true jay
ripe crest
solar gust
clear pawn
placid smelt
#

So in vic3 when there's a game-breaking bug, like half the time it can be fixed in script so I can just make a mod that fixes the bug and play the game including achievements. (I play ironman even when I don't have to, for whatever that's worth.)

In eu5, well, if they ever end up with such a game-breaking bug I guess I'll just be playing a different game until they fix it, and if that happens often enough...

clear pawn
left saffron
left saffron
solar gust
placid smelt
# solar gust No but not ironman is an easier game and so the standard of ironman makes it bet...

idk waht Slaskie thinks but personally I'm less concerned about the ironman thing than the no mods thing. both because of unofficial hotfix mods (self-created or otherwise), but also because while previous games with this restriction had a well-defined line between "mods that change the checksum" and "cosmetic/UI/otherwise not-changing-the-checksum mods" and allowed achievements as long as the checksum wasn't altered, apparently eu5 doesn't

left saffron
# placid smelt idk waht Slaskie thinks but personally I'm less concerned about the ironman thin...

Yeah, id play as if it was ironman (etc not savescum unless something critical happens) But its the fact i want to use UI mods or other small things that is my biggest issue with it. Especially when the game is this new and there are 100s of improvements that would make life better that could be fixed in a mod instead of waiting for the devs etc.
And the way EU5 is coded, you cant really separate "UI only" vs cheating mods, as UI mods also have access to do "cheaty" things. So they just said screw everything instead of doing what they did with great success in CK3/Vic3 (there are still certain game conditions that must be met do be eligible).

left saffron
ripe crest
true jay
still moon
#

And just as a quick reminder: SAM exists

true jay
#

I like the idea of Ironman being a requirement but it’s really unenforceable and in the end it’s a single player game in most instances so who cares

#

That’s different than mods tho. I think that should be disabled probably. I could just mod in the scenario needed for every achievement

#

But in the end, it doesn’t matter so not a big deal either way

left saffron
true jay
ripe crest
still moon
#

If you really wanted to cheat you'd use SAM

#

Significantly more accessible as well, considering it only weighs 54.7 kb and won't break if the game gets updated

solar gust
left saffron
#

What's stopping you from playing iron-man anyway?

solar gust
left saffron
#

Because I want to play with UI mods, and that's not trivial.
And I don't give a shit if everyone else cheats. I just care about how I play.

#

Do you care if other players cheat in a single player game?

solar gust
left saffron
#

Again, you are not coming with any actual arguments of why it should be disabled.
Does it make your own experience worse, what others do?

solar gust
#

You're not coming with reasons as to why it should be changed. It is according to you trivial to work around the restrictions.

placid smelt
solar gust
placid smelt
solar gust
still moon
still moon
solar gust
still moon
#

that's how trivial it is

#

You don't even have to download the game iirc

solar gust
still moon
solar gust
still moon
# solar gust It's not, I don't use the work around
  • UI mods
  • More in-depth localization mods (some things are hardcoded)
  • Saving without manually copying a savefile
  • Savefile corruption
  • QOL mods
  • Accessibility mods
  • Flavor mods (because yes, modders sometimes do a better job than paradox)
#

Or even dare I play with ahistorical formables enabled

solar gust
#

Sounds like all things you don't need to do. But if that's what you enjoy go for it. I think the game is better when achievements are done under standard conditions.

still moon
solar gust
still moon
#

Then try playing EU4 or any other PDX game with another language than English and you'll think very, very differently.

And believe me, I know what I'm speaking about: I'm the French translator of EU4.

In the current, public version of EU4, for French I have 9,017 lines of script in my scripted triggers file, and 191,832 lines of scripts in my custom_script file.

Despite of that, the translation is largely unsatisfying without a complementary mod that allows translating tons of other things: characters names, province names, battle names, war names, dynasty names, etc. And this complementary mod disallows achievements.

So what's offered a French-speaking player is either achievements, or a more correct French translation.

And I won't speak here of players that want to play the game in Russian, Italian or Turkish. They could say you exactly the same thing as me, which will be my conclusion: even if you see this as unkind, I can't see how you could be more wrong about your assumptions of who EU4 players are when not in your own comfort zone.

still moon
warped marlin
#

I'm an ironman enjoyer too. I do regret the mods not changing the checksum (UI, accessibility...) being refused but achievements are made to be reachable goals by the player in the settings the devs intended (otherwise it's called a single player goal). Doing what they can to limit players to those settings to ensure that most of the players use in game mechanics to get to them is what gives an achievement value in my eyes.

#

Ps localization fits in "accessibility" in my opinion.

still moon
still moon
#

And I mean comparable to HOI4 or EU4 rare, you probably couldn't tell which game allows mods and which doesn't

warped marlin
# still moon I will repeat myself yet again: if you're judging your achievements based on how...

What it says about me is that I want to do a challenge in the way the devs intended to and that you want to have it your own way and not challenge yourself as the game is intended.

And there will always be people who cheat in games but it isn't because a cheat exists that everything should be reduced in difficulty to make the cheat worthless. That's levelling from the bottom and I don't like that.
Rarity of achievements is fun but that's not what matters it's who has taken the time to do them compared to the entirety of the people who own the game.
I like to ask a friend how they reached achievement X and if they had fun.

#

And ironman is an attempt at putting all players on the same base.

left saffron
warped marlin
placid smelt
# warped marlin What it says about me is that I want to do a challenge in the way the devs inten...

The phrase "the way the devs intended to" suggests that bugfix mods, which take a game that's not functioning the way the devs intended it to and make it function the way the devs intended to, should be achievement-compatible

Now how exactly anyone's supposed to tell whether a mod is a bugfix mod, other than some sort of honor system, is a difficult question; but in the "this is the ideal state of the world, if we could figure out how to get there" sense, that argument suggests bugfix mods should be achievement-compatible

#

(And even the honor system isn't perfect here, because sometimes "is this a bug" is a matter of opinion and some other times something really really looks like a bug but there's a possibility the devs intended it that way, and they aren't responding to forum posts that ask about it)

thorny geyser
#

There is now a community flavour pack that I would choose to play with if we get the ironman mods back. Otherwise I never seeing playing with mods in singleplayer.

warped marlin
# placid smelt The phrase "the way the devs intended to" suggests that bugfix mods, which take ...

While the difference between bug fix and feature change can sometimes be clear, it can also be very hard as you say. And thus it requires some form of reviewing. And a review that can't be appealed are bad reviews. So at some point someone will have to spend time to:

  • Elaborate the verification system.
  • Possibly manage the appeals.
  • Keep it up to date and from my work, I can tell you keeping systems up to date can be a time sink.

And not being studio leader or any form of management in PDX (or in anyway related to PDX for that matter) I have no say on how they manage their business. I can only hope that they work on what annoys me (bugs...) and sanction their management/ result product with my wallet (or to be precise the non-use of it) in the future.

#

In the end videogames biggest production cost is by far wages. Wages being dependent on the number of hours worked.
So I prefer a system that forbids all mods to save time for more bug removal / content creation than maintain a system to satisfy some vocally grumpy players who want the game as they want it and not how the devs intend it.

left saffron
#

Or one that allows all mods, and still requires 0 dev time?

white pawn
white pawn
white pawn
#

"The devs intended way" is filled with arbitrary decisions that make no sense, again see the picture I sent above. Things like forcing the ai to always pick the historical option for events, for example. Why does that have to be turned on to allow achievements? If the devs forced you to have the Byzantines be called the Eastern Roman Empire to be eligible for achievements would you accept that no questions asked? That is just as arbitrary as the rest of the decisions related to achievements

solar gust
solar gust
white pawn
#

Hoi4 style focus trees when?

solar gust
white pawn
#

"Declare the 100 years war against England" focus when?

white pawn
solar gust
white pawn
#

I can

solar gust
#

then do it

white pawn
#

But it shouldn't be needed

solar gust
#

its not

#

you can go through the gate

white pawn
#

And people who for example can't play the game because the localisation is ass cannot just walk around the gate either

solar gust
#

but you don't like that option so you're complaining about going around also

white pawn
#

Talking to people who need to defend their e-peens is like trying to communicate with a brick wall holy shit

#

I can assure you, you will not be more attractive to your prefered gender just because you have more eu5 achievements

ripe crest
white pawn
solar gust
white pawn
#

If people enjoyed Paradox's restrictions the basic achievements would be unlocked at a much higher rate

ripe crest
#

if they desire an easier challenge, then they don't need to go after the achievements. It's up to them

solar gust
white pawn
#

Which is why I want achievements to be available for people who simply wish to have a goal in mind, not as a way to show off your e-peen

solar gust
white pawn
solar gust
#

I don't think anyone is suggesting remove acheivements from EU5

white pawn
#

I spend way too much time arguing with people every day but Pond is honestly one of the more insufferable people I've met jesus christ

solar gust
white pawn
warped marlin
# white pawn To create a fun challenge and to extend the playtime of the game, and I fully un...

EU5, like 4 are sandbox, each player is free to set their own goals.
Some people extend game time by playing with achievements, some by increasing the difficulty, some by providing themselves with alternate gameplay (aka mods).
Achievement hunting is just one way of playing the game and if you are frustrated by it, well maybe work on your creativity skills. Or accept that it isn't a game mode for you and live on with it.
And if you're only there for competition and consider the race for achievements rigged because it is too easy to cheat, well, maybe you can look / find / create other ways to compete...
And again before anyone yells at me about accessibility / localization / UI mods I'll state again that I would like to see those allowed in ironman.

solar gust
white pawn
#

yeah exactly, it's a sandbox, so why put arbitrary restrictions on it?

solar gust
white pawn
#

achievement hunting has extended my playtime for vic3 by a lot, it's fun to just have a concrete goal in mind

#

god the content filter on this discord is so hyperactive

but I also don't feel like spending 40 something hours in eu5 just for the ai to hyuck me over because of how buggy it is

#

achievements should be hard because the goal is hard, they shouldn't be hard because you force yourself to never reload a save after the game bugs out on you

#

which the game will do, it is not stable enough

solar gust
white pawn
#

like in my current sweden game I've had instances where I've got my army on autonomous rebel supression so they run all over the country

solar gust
white pawn
#

I'm not gonna accept that I lose 20k manpower and god knows how much money because the ai is braindead and decided to march the army over a lake in the middle of march

solar gust
warped marlin
graceful spear
#

This chat’s funny to read.

white pawn
#

I'm having plenty of fun with the game

#

this is specifically about ironman and mods disabling achievements

#

which, again, you are the only one who has thought up a somewhat valid reason against allowing

#

I don't agree with it, but at least you had something to reply with

left saffron
still moon
#

Even hoi isn't this locked down when it comes to historical accuracy while getting achievements, you can play with ahistorical ai just fine (and then set specific countries to go historical)

white pawn
graceful spear
#

Last I remember, eu5 runs very ahistorical the second you unpause.

still moon
#

Unless you don't want achievements that is

graceful spear
#

Well the events have about as much influence as the Hindenburg disaster in hoi4, so it really doesn’t change much.

still moon
#

Some of them do

graceful spear
still moon
#

And lets you form the HRE

graceful spear
#

So like I said, basically nothing changes.

placid smelt
graceful spear
#

I fail to see how that actually matters when you’re already Germany.

warm cedar
#

I don't mind Ironman as a requirement, but EU4 didn't forbid having any mods at all to be achievement compatible. There is a lot of frustration to be had with this game's UI that a mod would easily be able to fix but instead the checksum magically matters when it didn't in the game I was playing a month ago. I liked Waifu Universalis, why is it forbidden to get "Just a Little Bit More Patience" with anime girls on my screen?

white pawn
#

yeah but imagine if someone has a hard time reading the font or wants a localisation that Paradox hasn't provided, if they could get achievements too the entire e-peen measuring contest would be ruined!

white pawn
#

well since there hasn't been any communication at all about the issue and I'm guessing Johan would veto any chance for letting people play their singleplayer game how they prefer I can only recommend SAM

#

just finished an entire campaign after like 90 hours and I am not planning on doing that again any time soon so SAM it is for the entire campaign achievement

solar gust
#

Well I think you win the award for biggest epeen

true jay
#

May this thread never die

white pawn
#

and it never shall

solar gust
white pawn
#

missed this for a while

#

but an achievement enabler is available now

left saffron
#

Nice, thanks for the link!

white pawn
#

yw

#

I've been waiting for this to start a new run

still moon
#

Knew it was only a matter of time