Azul's Helper Pokémon Tier List

[obtuse loom]

9. Condescending, I'll plopa point here

[torn whale]

1. Is that meant to be punishment-worthy?
2. "
3. Yeah, what's the problem with not specifying the proportions? The fact that there's a fraction at all is all that's relevant to the point, of there being two ways of tracking sleep where one was made to function like the other
4. And I stand by it, that was by definition a balancing change.
5. You're saying there's a problem with me asking for their reference? What, should I just take every user I speak to as gospel, perfectly accurate with their observations and shape my tier list to them? I was doing my due diligence, you of all people should not be a critiquing there

I do have more but all at once could overrun word limit

[obtuse loom]

10. "Instead of using bad argument" is once again a very angled statement, but you were also nonsequituring the whole thing

So I'll give half a point

the total is 3.5

Let's do yours

1. Not a damnable thing on its face, until the fourth time you did it, in which case it sems malicious

2. See 1

3 and 5 Obvious bad faith, half a point each

4. This is the closest to "obvious trolling" I saw this entire conversation, half a point

6. This was where you started to get aggressive, but I can let it slide as a first little heat-up

7. Continued bad faith to pair with Point 4, not damnable

8. At this point your bad faith is starting to seem pretty intentional, half a point

9. Bad faith, half a point

10. full point

11. full point

12. hlf a point

13. half a point

14. full point

15. full point

16. full point

17. full point

18. full point - and I actually missed another one earlier that was this too, so let's all it 1.5

19. two points

So ye, you were significantly worse fam

I'm leaving this here

[torn whale]

6. One person can't cause an argument, I shouldn't be held accountable more than the other for this, when they were just as bad in this regard
7. You said the same point twice. It is balancing, making one mechanic function in-line with another.
8. It is relevant for my placement of Leafeon. It has zero potential to shine because E4E is a superior skill in every facet. Umbreon though? Unless you argue Ttar doing the same thing and build it to focus berries, which I would disregard leaving no real comparison.
9. What's the point of all this repetition? Are you that keen on making me look bad?
10. Well yeah it goes both ways almost. Except one of us was actually trying to drop it.

[obtuse loom]

One person can't cause an argument
One person can can't cause a debate - but one person in that debate can turn it into an argument

That person was you

[obtuse loom]

It is balancing, making one mechanic function in-line with another.
You do know that nerfs are balancing? It's a nerf to the mechanic.

That is what it is

It is also balancing

But that isn't a refutation

[torn whale]

11. That's reasonable for me to say. They kept adding points to bring into the argument, making it feel endless.
12. And I was right. They were making it out like I lied about there being changelogs, I guess I could've taken kindly to that if I were a saint.
13. That's an insult in your book? Really?
14. Like, what do you want me to say here? I give a stance on a matter and they keep going on with it
15. That's fair to ask, there have been actual trolls here before asking for changes

[torn whale]

Balancing by a different definition, sure

Not the definition I was referring to

[obtuse loom]

It is relevant for my placement of Leafeon. It has zero potential to shine because E4E is a superior skill in every facet. Umbreon though? Unless you argue Ttar doing the same thing and build it to focus berries, which I would disregard leaving no real comparison.
He never once made the suggestion it was better than E4E - he used the comparison to Umbreon, and why Leafeon and Umbreon are comparable in their strengths

Fun fact; did you know Leafeon's ability is strictly better than Umbreon's?

Leafeon's ability is strictly better than Umbreon's ability

Unless you're running multiple Leafeon*

It is strictly better as you can replicate the skill's functionality identically, with a higher number, and it has more versatility

[torn whale]

That's simply not true. Charge Energy not being random is a clear advantage making it impossible to rule clear superiority

[obtuse loom]

Did you know you can make it not random

Pretty easily actually

When your Leafeon is up, clean the inventories of the rest of your party

Then remove all those mons from your party

Until Leafeon is alone

pop it, it pops onto Leafeon

Then bring them all back

It takes like 40 seconds to do this

You also have the flexibility to try to roll to hit another mon if you want

And you can make it a coinflip to land on a specific mon or Leafeon

[torn whale]

Okay, if you gotta go to those lengths to make it work it's not worth me discussing as a worthwhile usage case

[brittle summit]

If there really was not clear superiority then shouldnt they be in the same tier, which was my original point

And again I outlined situations in which even if it were random and you couldnt / didnt want to control it, Leafeon's skill is superior. I also provided a situation in which Umbreon's would be superior

[torn whale]

That's fine, but I don't share that sentiment. This time will you refrain from repeating the point to make me change my mind? Oh wait maybe that's allowed here

[brittle summit]

But those were your words?

[obtuse loom]

This time will you refrain from repeating the point to make me change my mind? Oh wait maybe that's allowed here
This is being belligerent fam

He was repeating and restating his point because you never addressed it

You've said now, if I may summarize the points that are relevant here

1. These mons are very comparable, there's no clear superiority of one over the other
2. Umbreon is tiered higher than Leafeon though
3. But I disagree they should be on the same tier and refuse to explain why besides "I disagree"

This is exactly what Dunk was trying to navigate through during the whole conversation

Now, be civil Azul

[torn whale]

Was it not clear I was expressing my disagreement in you guys putting Umbreon and Leafeon on the same level?

[obtuse loom]

So do you disagree that functionally you can replicate a strictly better Umbreon ability with Leafeon's

With very little actual effort

People be doing N+1 and saying that occasionally spending 30 seconds to game a proc is "lengths not worth discussing a usecase for"

[torn whale]

I disagree that the effort you have to strain on the teambuilder is worth considering for the direction of my tier list, yes

[obtuse loom]

What is the direction of your tier list

Because even still - I think the two abilities are still roughly comparable in strength generally in terms of team impact

[torn whale]

That was never a factor for any of my decisions, not that it's relevant much but I never made any comment

[obtuse loom]

assuming you have a fairly decent team

[torn whale]

It's in the spreadsheet

[obtuse loom]

Right, the one you linked before /s

[brittle summit]

I simply have not seen you explain in detail why one is better than the other, only that ''you dont like randomness''. There is both good and bad randomness but you are dismissing positive instances of randomness

I would be much more inclined to agree with umbreon > leafeon if it was based on their competition in their favored islands, as leafeon has arguably stronger competition in Espeon

[obtuse loom]

I'd love to take apart the direction you stated in the tier list for avid discussion, but it's clear to me that it won't actually change anything

[brittle summit]

although perhaps in some lategame situation glaceon could be better than espeon, I dont know

[torn whale]

Simple question Qril. Do you think this is appropriate to keep saying (given how it's actually the dozenth time they did) after I gave my disagreeing thoughts?

[obtuse loom]

No, I think it's wholly appropriate since I still don't actually see where you explained your thoughts on exactly why Leafeon is a worse Umbreon besides "I don't want to put in effort to make an ability nuts" and "Random is worse"

The latter has been explained pretty succinctly by Dunk a few times, about what good and bad randomness is, and why the randomness isn't a massive issue for the ability

You've emphasized your disagreement many timesm

[torn whale]

But you acknowledge that I have given reason, regardless of how accurate you feel it is?

[obtuse loom]

please link to me where you provided a thoughtful explanation for why Leafeon belongs in a lower tier than Umbreon

[obtuse loom]

No I believe you did not give reason to rebut

I believe you said something that explains a thought process you had for the placement, but that isn't a rebuttal to his question

Dunk has been cordial and explained everything very patiently many times and you have not addressed his core concern

You know what

Let's start from the top

Wipe the slate clean

Forget what happened above

Make a fresh conversation where we can cover the bases fluidly

Let's start with the line directly from the top, for the final time

Azul, why is Umbreon placed a tier above Leafeon?

[torn whale]

Fine, I'll make an exception for you by not redirecting you (again) to the spreadsheet for this info. The point of my tier list is to represent how good/bad a mon is across as broad a spectrum as possible. To be more specific, this concept can apply to multiple levels of gameplay, playstyles and living/sleeping habits.

That last point is key in my diregarding Leafeon's team-manipulating shenanigans. The fact you need to exercise these lengths to make it at least comparable to similar skills (E4E, Charge Energy to a lesser degree) makes it difficult go recommend to, say, someone who has to work a 9-5. In fact I'd only consider this suggestion for diehard optimization gurus who have free time as deep as their wallets.

Looking a conventional gameplay, there is zero benefit to running Leafeon over E4E. It has the same desired overall effect, especially after the latest update where maintaining max helping rate during the day is easier than ever

So my reasoning isn't a matter of Leafeon above Umbreon. It's Leafeon meets the factors of a bottom tier mon, while Umbreon doesn't quite

[brittle summit]

But why is it worse than Charge Energy? If the team around leafeon/umbreon is good, then Energizing Cheer averages out as better

As energy is better used in pokemon that are not leafeon/umbreon

[torn whale]

Because Charge Energy can function as an archetype independently from E4E and alongside it. Due to skill distribution, you're sacrificing not one but two slots to combine E4E and Cheer, I alr explained why Cheer alone is undesirable

[brittle summit]

Predictability is mainly a factor for hitting meals, but considering umbreon/leafeon levels of ingredient production I don't think it is that relevant

[brittle summit]

why cant cheer work alongside e4e?

[small tendon]

Not wading into this mire of an argument, but curious if you know whether doing this resets the pity proc cooldown on your other mons?

Or help timers even

[brittle summit]

does cheer have a much lower proc rate than energy charge?

[torn whale]

You're sacrificing far too much for that, offering zero functionality. E4E alone hits the desired benefits from energy gain, i.e. 80%+ during the day

[brittle summit]

I think if there's an argument to be made then it would have to be around that

[brittle summit]

yes but that would make both cheer and charge useless, not only one of them

again, I think umbreon and leafeon are better this patch due to the night drain changes

having multiple mons over 100% is desirable now

[torn whale]

I alr explained why Cheer alone is undesirable
You're making me repeat myself again 😮‍💨

And describing E4E alone wouldn't be relevant to this discussion, if I said that again [REDACTED]

[brittle summit]

Yes but consider this. You have 4 good pokemon and last slot is leafeon/umbreon. Would you not rather have extra energy on your walrein or meganium over leafeon/umbreon?

[obtuse loom]

So there are a few counterarguments to these points, if you will be willing to converse

1

The fact you need to exercise these lengths to make it at least comparable to similar skills (E4E...)
This is not about E4E whatsoever. Umbreon's ability is not at all comparable to E4E, and the comparison isn't being made for Umbreon, whose ability is wrose than Leafeon's in functionality.

2

makes it difficult go recommend to, say, someone who has to work a 9-5
I don't see why this is an issue whatsoever? When you get off work at 5, it lengthens you play session by like 30 seconds. Why would this at all be impactful for the 9-5 players?

3

In fact I'd only consider this suggestion for diehard optimization gurus who have free time as deep as their wallets.
The 9-5 players already don't check 20 times a day - this isn't N+1, this is "when you do each big check of the day, spend an additional 30 seconds to get some extra value out of a mon".

4

Looking a conventional gameplay, there is zero benefit to running Leafeon over E4E.
There is zero reason to run Umbreon over E4E either. You're comparing apples ot oranges here.

5

It has the same desired overall effect
No it doesn't. Height is a signficiant difference from depth. When E4E procs, it gives all your mons a little boost. When ECS procs, it gives one mon a significant boost. It's a very notable and significant boost.

6

especially after the latest update where maintaining max helping rate during the day is easier than ever
If you're truly trying to appeal to people of all skill levels and places within the game, this is a bad argument. You need a very good Sylveon/Gardevoir for this to be true - people start with lower energy than they ever have before which makes that much harder. With an early morning 15-energy E4E proc, many people will now start their days with 75 energy instead of 115. Single-target giga energy boosts can cross multiple tiers. These abilities complement each other, they don't compete. Imagine if, as a form of comparison, said Feraligatr wasn't worth running because Cyndaquil just does its job better. The applications and environments you use each of these things are different. They don't have to compete, they coexist.

[torn whale]

This doesn't really make sense? Like this usage case you run E4E easily, Cheer doesn't make sense to compromise for

[brittle summit]

its not compromising, its an extra

before the patch energy charge was redundant with e4e

if you had a good e4e mon most of the days you overcapped your tyranitar / dodrio

[obtuse loom]

This... doesn't make sense?

Umbreon will nearly always be the second worst producer on your team, second only maybe to your E4E user. Leafeon has a 3/5 chance of it being SPECTACULARLY better, a 1/5 chance of it being exactly the same, and a 1/5 chance of it being a little worse.

[brittle summit]

so in that sense leafeon and umbreon are the same

[obtuse loom]

The randomness is good here

[torn whale]

And after it still is the case? E4E being better makes there less reason to run Cheer too

[brittle summit]

no, there is more of a reason to run charge energy now because your mons are less likely to wake up at 100%, and going to sleep with 150% energy now is good and not a waste

before the patch it was a waste

[torn whale]

Typo, I alr corrected

[brittle summit]

my opinion btw is that if there had not been a dark favored island, umbreon should have been E before this patch, and that even with favored island it was marginally D

I agree leafeon was E before this patch

[small tendon]

Does the fact that Leafeon costs a Leaf Stone and Umbreon just takes a while factor in at all?

[brittle summit]

now, I believe both are D with leafeon being marginally better

but leafeon has stronger competition which makes them roughly equal

[torn whale]

I said this before, if Leafeon goes up that means considering Wobbuffet too. I'd rather perish the thought

[obtuse loom]

See this is a point that's a reasonable take

[brittle summit]

wobbuffet is sooooo slow though

[obtuse loom]

Wobbuffet is MUCH better than he was before - but he is pitifully slow

So even with that boost he's still shite

He rose from like, second last place, to like sixth last place

[brittle summit]

I do wonder what the skill trigger % is for each of those pokemon though

[torn whale]

Right, you wanna talk about Leafon being good now bc Lapis? If so why ever use it above Garde?

[brittle summit]

leafeon's ingredient list is also quite good for lapis and wobb doesnt have anything special there

[obtuse loom]

You don't

[torn whale]

*in the context of Lapis

[obtuse loom]

You use both!

[brittle summit]

yeah that is kind of my point

[small tendon]

What about if you disregard all shard mons?

[brittle summit]

I can definitely see a team of say

[obtuse loom]

Just like how you don't use Umbreon over Garde

[brittle summit]

garde, victreebel, leafeon, meganium, blastoise in lapis

leafeon giving buffs to meganium and victreebel would be a plus

[small tendon]

idk why you'd ever evolve a good eevee into leafeon or umbreon

But also why would you spend resources evolving a bad leafeon or umbreon

[brittle summit]

if anything the problem is again that espeon is arguably better than glaceon

[torn whale]

Now that is crazy talk imo. You're -1 berry/ing mons and for what, surplus energy? Just look at the new dish reqs, they're hard enough to hit in this meta even when dedicating entire teams, why narrow your options this excessively?

[brittle summit]

so if you really need that eevee to fill in that last spot for lapis you might go with espeon

[torn whale]

That's not a reasonable teambuilding recommendation to make to a wide audience

[obtuse loom]

Now, at the risk of sounding condescending

AHA! He made a point!

[small tendon]

E tier is not a recommendation

[obtuse loom]

An actual, actionable point from which constructive discussion can be had

This was something you could have said two hours ago and something meaningful could have been built from it

[obtuse loom]

My counterargument: Same for Umbreon, why the distinction?

[small tendon]

@obtuse loom bumping this question if you have a minute

[obtuse loom]

I saw it, I'm looking into stuff rn, don't have an answer unfortunately

[small tendon]

regarding gaming leafeon procs

Gotcha

[obtuse loom]

I looked aroundand found no data for it yet

[brittle summit]

yeah but I agree with this! but thats why I feel the tierlist should explain the very small niche both umbreon and leafeon have

[small tendon]

It's one of those things that's really hard to get data on

[torn whale]

Umbreon had not just berry niche for Snowdrop but ings. That combi of Cacao/Milk while maintaining fav berries (which Blastoise fails)

[brittle summit]

basically you only want to use them if you get a berry finder one and you dont have a better option for their preferred island

[brittle summit]

but cacao / milk doesnt have alternatives in lapis either

[torn whale]

All without a care for energy

[brittle summit]

thats why they are so similar

with leafeon being faster than umbreon

[obtuse loom]

Leafeon has berry niche for Lapis - which other mons make Cacao/Milk meaningfully at Lapis?

[small tendon]

Espeon 😁

[obtuse loom]

And there we go, a fully fledged point has been made

[small tendon]

And with my point, I will bow out

[dire gazelle]

And then we can say the same for glaceon and umbreon

[small tendon]

I eagerly await the result of this great debate

[small tendon]

Yep

[obtuse loom]

The reason why Leafeon is lower than Umbreon is that, although their niches and concessions are similar, Umbreon has less competition for its ingredients on its main island, whereas Espeon directly competes for the ingredient advantage Leafeon could give in Lapis.

[torn whale]

I wouldn't call Leafeon self-sustainable while also having the drops. You could argue it with a caveat, but I gave my stance on that teambuilding strat

[obtuse loom]

Yeah except Glaceon is trash

[dire gazelle]

worse than umbreon now?

[torn whale]

Cooking power-up has taken a hit this update

[obtuse loom]

wait wtf

[torn whale]

Wouldn't go that far yet

[obtuse loom]

why is Glaceon higher tiered than Umbreon lol

now this is the real cap

[torn whale]

Well I have moved it down as much as I felt comfortable for a day 1 change

[brittle summit]

I think before this update Glaceon was clearly better than Umbreon, as there were people overcapping on ingredients (I know I was)

now with pot size increase glaceon is pretty bad

[obtuse loom]

OK that's fair - its trajectory is downwards and will likely sink lower with further information and meta development

[torn whale]

That far I couldn't justify without more update playtime (not mine, globally)

[dire gazelle]

Damn

I guess pot mons will become better once we get level 60?

[obtuse loom]

Worse I think

When we get to 60, I expect another pot increase

[brittle summit]

hmm I think that could be the case but I dont know

[dire gazelle]

Well this is unfortunate to hear after I almost got my glaceon to level 50 for bfs

[brittle summit]

same :(

[torn whale]

As a main skill effect it feels too weak, needs multiple triggers or improved expansion counts

[brittle summit]

Anyway I think if possible the descriptions on the tier list should try to reflect this in some way, as a guide to players who dont know which eevelution to pick

[obtuse loom]

This is a fairly cogent point too

If the main reason why Leafeon places so poorly is that it competes with Espeon, that's should be explained

[brittle summit]

I do wonder whats the difference in performance between a say, two identical leafeon and espeon with berry finder help speed M and no skill triggers

[torn whale]

Something to bear in mind is that takes time, more than you think. I write them from scratch, separately from changelogs. The new mons don't even have them yet, and there was only so much I could update for the existing ones. Mons like Meganium had to take priority

[brittle summit]

because if you get like skill level up M and skill trigger M you definitely want espeon

[obtuse loom]

Ye I think they were making moreso a criticism for future developments when the meta settles and you can write more

Things are fast rn, meta's fresh

I'm glad to reset seemed to work

And we're on track for constructive conversation again

[dire gazelle]

I'm just sad about glaceon

[brittle summit]

fwiw if you have an insane slaking then pot increase might be fine, I have a friend with an insanely good one and he fills the pot every time while running 4 berry mons + e4e

[dire gazelle]

My slaking is basically perfect at 75 so eventually lol

[visual cosmos]

[frosty sinew]

It's funny to me how in fixing naps being OP they just made the already best ability in the game e4e even stronger

Sylvion might deserve its own tier even above S

[obtuse loom]

I've now officially documented Option Stripping, so from now on we have a term we can use to describe the strategy of removing mons from a team for RNG pelts

[timid geode]

what are RNG pelts?

[torn whale]

Dunno, but the entire thing is explained in #mathcord-publishings message

[torn whale]

@obtuse loom when I first saw it described I overlooked that, even when you do all this, the odds only narrow down to a coin flip. Which doesn't make this technique practical for supporting teams at all:

Statistically, it takes 9 skill procs for a 50% chance of desired hits (on 5 team members excl. dupes). For one, getting that many on a daily basis is nigh impossible even with optimization. Even if you achieve that, it's far from a guarantee you'll receive the desired outcome, which brings into question whether this method actually can succeed.

Assuming you find a way to: keeping track of a team's energy, menu traversing to isolate mons most in need of procs and general prepwork/planning all take way longer than "40 seconds". This is a lot of effort for a sleep tracker, is there even a significant tradeoff that can't be provided by other skills?

Another issue is one side of the 50/50 is invariable, i.e. the Cheer user. Multiple procs hitting it would cause wasted energy, and is far from an uncommon outcome. Just two in a row (25%) would you'll start to notice a loss, at least three (12.5%) risks close to zero gains

[brittle summit]

if the pokemon using it has berry finder or you value the ingredients it provides it is not a loss though

[brittle summit]

Speaking of low tier pokemon, is there any calculator for dream shard producing pokemon

[torn whale]

I remember that existing, wouldn't be able to trace back the link

[obtuse loom]

A "pelt" was just me using slang to mean "someone getting hit with something"

Like to pelt someone with snowballs

[obtuse loom]

You seem to be missing the bigger element here

Even if 50% of the time it hits the main user, that is still better than Charge Energy S, which was my only point before

You pre-make a team with the mon(s) you want to target

Then you swap the team, proc the ability and collect, then swap back

It does only take about 40s more than usual, I checked

[torn whale]

No I did get that, but probability still can't confer a distinct advantage over a 100% proc on the same mon, while not needing team swaps

But I did miss in that announcement that you only explained how to force single target procs

[obtuse loom]

What

Yes it literally can

Lol

Especially since you can force single procs, but even that aside

It's still better as targeting yourself is generally the less good option between the two

Worst case, it's still better than Umbreon

Best case it's MILES better than Umbreon

[torn whale]

Well yeah as I said I didn't realize that was your point at the time

[obtuse loom]

Yeah, that's why I said "even that aside"

[torn whale]

But the key word that made me respond was "especially" instead of "can only self proc". As if there was another way to force 100% otherwise

[obtuse loom]

No the cases are

1. You can guarantee a self proc (which eclipses self energy ability)
2. You can RNG it onto yourself+teammates of choice

Since you can choose between the two, and Case 1 is strictly better in function to the self energy ability

Energizing Cheer is strictly better

[brittle summit]

There is a distinct advantage 100% of the time except if you need that pokemon to hit a certain meal or if your other pokemon suck

(This is even in case you dont bother manipulating the ability’s targeting)

The way I feel about it is this, if I happened to catch a Slowbro with double tail and like ing finder M and helping speed M, or a Leafeon with BFS and helping speed M tomorrow, would I use them on my Cian / Lapis teams respectively? I think I would

But if I were to catch a perfect Sudowoodo or Swalot (I dont even know how one of those would look like) - would I use them anywhere? No

I honestly dont think I would have used a perfect Lucario before Lapis release, now I probably would. It would still be nice to see calcs on how that ability works

Ok actually I wouldnt use slowbro but its niche is 'unlocking tail for magnet' which is something. Slowking is good enough to be worth considering in certain situations though

[torn whale]

If careful team planning and frequent swapping isn't a factor for you. This is absolutely a factor that would dissuade players from using the skill

[torn whale]

So works 100% of the time except when it doesn't? Not the best way of putting it

[obtuse loom]

Yes lol

It's a 100% success rate, for certain populations

it's not 100%, sometimes

It's a narrowed population

[torn whale]

Oh the way they said it was it's 100% if the procs don't miss on what you need it, whether you narrow it down or not

But if there's a reality where the procs miss there wouldn't be a fail state

So you can probably leave out that extra detail if you're not gonna use the strat

[scenic fulcrum]

Wtf happened here?

I started reading the leafeon discussion and then noticed how long it was

[shrewd orchid]

Fr lol yeah i was reading here yesterday the whole conversation, it was like an AtoomBom here.
Tbh they are just nice people that want the best for us all imo even if it's just an 'Tier-list' but yea it takes time&effort to make it so ..
personnaly i want to thank them cuz they do it for free and yea helping us. Sometimes it's just some people doesn't agree with the list here and there, it's a normal thing that can happen xD
But still we love ya @torn whale

btw i didn't read 100% everything just to be clear 😅 took so long lol

[torn whale]

Kinda losing faith with this server lately, hearing that makes this endeavour not feel worthless 😅
Like it just feels those who are running this server have fallen out of support. Forget what happened earlier, even my requests to push an update in #resources-research-communities were ignored

[shrewd orchid]

i see, just want to ask iirc your last tier list was Gengar on A-tier right?
or was it already in B-tier?

[torn whale]

It moved down to B

Did I miss that on the changelog?

[shrewd orchid]

no u are good

[torn whale]

Nvm

[shrewd orchid]

dang Gengar is falling down 😦
from S>A> and now B 😭

[torn whale]

It just might drop further with how fast they started powercreep

[shrewd orchid]

rip for my time and effort in my lovely bfs Gengar

[torn whale]

Oh that might have play if we get a permanent ghost island

And if it has lv30 mushroom that's still decent

[violet saffron]

It hasn't been ignored. I've unfortunately been busy this entire week/weekend. I have seen your messages, but I won't be able to get to them tomorrow.

[trim needle]

[torn whale]

Thanks for confirming, I mis-phrased with that assumption, meant to say smth along the lines of being ghosted

[loud radish]

I don't see the link to the tier list in pinned messages, can someone send it?

[light gust]

Not op but I'm trying to find the link to the spreadsheet with the notes and it's too far up

Thank you!

[torn whale]

Deleted both responses, info's moved to #resources-research-communities message

[violet saffron]

Apologies for how long it took

[torn whale]

No worries, appreciate ya 🙏

[brittle summit]

I kind of feel like ingredient mons are kind of misplaced in this update

I like Delibird but I dont think he's S tier, much less with the new recipes

and its preferred berry is like a non-factor these days

I think Dragonite, Tyranitar and Stufful have a much stronger case for S tier

honestly, I think even Gengar is better than Delibird thanks to the new recipes, as Double Herb is actually good now - even if Gengar has a lot of competition from Dragonite. Plus, Gengar is still the only good source of mushrooms, while Delibird has competition with Abomasnow for eggs

(delibird is faster but abomasnow has much higher ingredient %)

[shrewd orchid]

i agree with this one

[brittle summit]

also, even if we're looking at level 60 gengar sounds better than Delibird to me, again competition with Dragonite but every Gengar build at 60 has gotten stronger thanks to Oil and Herb being more valuable

so it is very likely that from an endgame perspective you'd like to have 2 dragonites with completely different ingredient sets - which considering the investment, means having 1 dragonite + 1 gengar is more viable

[trim needle]

Make your own tier list. No one is stopping you

[brittle summit]

1. This is a pinned tier list being granted 'official' status by the server

2. Do you understand what 'discussion thread' means?

[torn whale]

Funnily enough I already talked about it moving down to A next update

[torn whale]

Aboma vs. Delibird isn't a particularly worthwhile comparison, the former actually wants to avoid Egg for Tomato + Mushroom

[brittle summit]

It actually is because Abomasnow produces the same amount of eggs at delibird, even if delibird is double egg

An abomasnow with tomato/egg/egg vs delibird with egg/egg/egg produce the same amount of eggs both an 30 and 60

Delibird would only be better at 60 for the flan but at 30 it doesnt seem very worth running

(At 60 because of the 9 apples)

[torn whale]

And what does running double egg on Aboma win you over Deli, and its own synergies with Mushroom?

Nothing worth the sacrifice that's for sure

[brittle summit]

Versatility because it produces the same when you want desserts but can also be flexed on other weeks thanks to tomatoes

With a level 50 cap theres no reason to run deli over aboma

[torn whale]

If you're sacking both slots for egg you'll not be reaching enough tomatoes for anything substantial 💀

[brittle summit]

Im talking about level 50 cap

What im saying is youd rather have 2 abomas

At level 60 deli is more appealing because it gets enough apples to actually contribute to flan

[torn whale]

Not for the reasons you're providing, being f2p so struggling to hit Deli catch reqs is a more serious limitation. Besides you still have the cost of candy, Snover's a limited spawn in the big picture

[brittle summit]

Snover is quite common though, and yes the investment for delibird is also quite high

Plus by the point you get a delibird its berry is less useful

[torn whale]

I said the grand scheme of things, not many other species are limited to a late, non-Greengrass island

[torn whale]

It isn't pinned

Nor is it an official product of the server

[brittle summit]

It is being posted by the server Owner on one of the official channels

[torn whale]

A channel that literally has "community" in the name

[brittle summit]

You’ve lowered butterfree’s rank in this update because it is less useful as the game goes on

I do agree that if you happen to get a delibird when you only have Cian unlocked then its great

[torn whale]

^

[brittle summit]

But currently it is outclassed by Snover on lategame islands

[torn whale]

No, they fill completely different roles

[brittle summit]

Yeah I saw that, I feel like it just should be lower or at the same level at abomas/gengar

[torn whale]

Don't see why this comment was made then

I'm lowering Delibird for that reason

[brittle summit]

Just trying to understand how much current vs future value is being taken into account

For example Ditto has very very low value right now but it will theoretically be more usable at 60

[torn whale]

Put it this way, if Butterfree gets a bug island it would still be outclassed. If Delibird gets more dishes it can hit, depending on their category it can boost the mon greatly

[brittle summit]

Delibird would also be quite good at 60 for the flan but right now he’s not that special

[brittle summit]

I agree. But Abomasnow has both more current and confirmed future value at 60

It could well end up being that eggs become more valuable again at some point but they took a hit this patch

[torn whale]

I'm not so sure about the current part. Last time I checked Aboma's egg generation doesn't reach Flan, while Deli can at least hit apples while making progress on egg

[brittle summit]

Basically what im getting at is delibird better on paper than in reality

[torn whale]

It's indeed a tossup between which of these reaches S:
Dragonite is arguably the best lategame mon but it's unusable to varying degrees early on.
Bewear is just Corn focus, which is immediately great but unlikely to have staying power.
Ttar I need to calc more for midgame, it seems to need Sausage quite badly with the update

[torn whale]

Comparing an outclassed mon to another that has an uncontested niche is very low priority for now. The other points you raised are ones that take precedence

[brittle summit]

Meanwhile aboma would produce 16.7 eggs a day

At level 60 delibird much more appealing because it can actually produce enough apples + eggs by itself but right now if it has apples its dogshit

[torn whale]

Egg/Apple/Egg is actually better for it in the long run ftr

[brittle summit]

I dont think the Corn focus is bad considering its on every top dish right now

Corn is probably the best ingredient right now

Its really versatile and even has good filler value

[torn whale]

Neither do I, but do I put it in S for the immediate viability while overlooking lack of futureproofing is a difficult call

[brittle summit]

Plus fighting berry being appealing

[torn whale]

I guess it does match the description I have written for S, more than my mental image

[brittle summit]

I understand its hard to balance current vs future, and back when it released I did think Delibird was S, now I am not sure. It isnt that great right now (I think I’d rather have an Absol, Bewear or mushroom Gengar) and it isnt that clear it will be that great in the future as Flan isnt the top option anymore

Thats why I think it should be alongside abomasnow - they are both fine right now but wont unlock what they need until 60

[magic plover]

Guys what’s the best team for snowdrop would it be Walrein Delibird and Houndoom?

[eternal spire]

Walrein × 4 + Gardevoir

[torn whale]

Yeah, Walreins + any E4E mon is hard to go wrong with

[timid geode]

what dishes would you go for with 4x walrein? just what ever the skills provide you with im guessing?

[brittle summit]

Walrein, E4E, Slaking + 2

Houndoom, Tyranitar, Absol and Abomasnow are the best choices for the last 2 slots

[brittle summit]

Yeah… It would probably be more efficient to have a slaking over one of the 4 walreins

[magic plover]

Is my level 41 wigglytuff good for the e4e

[obtuse loom]

Anybody is free to make their own tier list and they'll also he given credence

[brittle summit]

Post it on #rate-my-mon-or-team

[trim needle]

y is Pinsir S tier

[timid geode]

Very good ing combo

Dessert specialist

[brittle summit]

It isnt

[obtuse loom]

Be mindful that this is just one person's personal tier list

So we have to wait to see what Azul says to see why

[trim needle]

It is literally in S tier

[eternal spire]

It is incredibly fast and is amazing on dessert week since honey and apple are choice ingredients there. Pairs with blastoise to make lovely kiss ez pz

[torn cargo]

You have an explanation in The "individual ranking" tab

Quoting:

Top class dessert coverage, Honey + Apple combo is relevant for Jigglypuff Flan, Lovely Kiss Smoothie, Ginger Cookies and Neroli's Tea. Even better now that it handles salads too, i.e. Calm Mind Fruit Salad.

[brittle summit]

its good but is it really better than say Absol, Bewear, Tyranitar or Mushroom Gengar?

[eternal spire]

Absol's use case is neroli tea, which is worse

Bewear idk since I dont keep up with the meta

Gengar's best use case is actually double herb oil (from what I've seen?) But that's just worse dragonite tbh

Mushroom gengar is also kinda worse than soy soy mush golem for ninja meals

I think Tyranitar should also be in the top tier of ing mons

[trim needle]

Hmmm so this Pinsir guy can cover lot at once

[brittle summit]

level 60 does not exist

Gengar is the best (only) option for mushrooms currently

[eternal spire]

Isn't Azul's list a level 60 tier list and onward?

[brittle summit]

for level 60 all his combinations work really, it is outclassed by dragonite but a f2p player wont have enough candy to have 2 dragonites

so having a gengar + a dragonite with different ing sets is more realistic

[brittle summit]

nobody knows thats kind of the problem

[small tendon]

I really don't get the controversy on this one

This is a public forum where anyone can post their tier lists

Like people have said before, just make your own one if you disagree

[timid geode]

there is no controversy here, just discussion

[torn whale]

What are you on about? It's made clear in the sheet's description

[torn whale]

Not exclusively

[torn whale]

The resource I created offers a lot more than just a "personal tier list". If anything that gives a misleading impression of it coming down to preference, which is hardly the case

[torn whale]

I would like for discussions here to be carried out politely. Nothing good will come from statements like "no you're wrong this mon isn't S tier" or denouncing what others see as better/worse.
It hadn't been like this before, but lately it feels like users have gotten so caught up in the metagame they forgot how to be respectful 😮‍💨

[grizzled pasture]

I've been lurking in this thread since week one (or whenever this thread was made) , I've found it quite helpful in knowing what I should and shouldn't be on the lookout for.

I know no list is infallible, but this list has definitely helped me when thinking about what to search for next, using it like a guideline.

I appreciate all the work Azul has put into this, because I definitely don't have the time lol

[brittle summit]

It is very unclear whether the tier list is rating for level 50 or 60. Or if you prefer, rather than unclear, inconsistent. Some pokemon are rated highly despite being outclassed both currently and in the future (Wiggly), others are rated higher than they should due to their future performance even though they are completely useless right now (Altaria, Ditto), and then some that are top tier right now are being dropped to lower tiers due to theoretically being outclassed in the future (Gengar)

The tier S definition is also unclear. What makes Delibird or Pinsir S, but not Absol or Bewear? If we are talking about uniqueness/niche, then why is Gengar being the only source of mushrooms not taken into account? Similarly, why its outclassing taken into account for Gengar but not for MrMime or Wigglytuff?

[torn whale]

It is very unclear whether the tier list is rating for level 50 or 60. Or if you prefer, rather than unclear, inconsistent.
Those are two completely different points. I clearly said, for ing mons, "utility with and without [lv60 ings] should be considered", so neither should be the case as long as you read the spreadsheet.

Some pokemon are rated highly despite being outclassed both currently and in the future (Wiggly)
Wiggly is neither of these, it's equal with Sylveon (arguably better for +1 skill level) and only bares a 2-3% skill value (not even trigger rate) difference from Gardevoir. Far too negligible to define as "outclassed".

others are rated higher than they should due to their future performance even though they are completely useless right now (Altaria, Ditto)
No clue where this assumption came from. For one, the examples you gave are not useless mons: Altaria is the only Yache specialist and few mons starting with egg, Ditto is the only ing mon besides Toxi for Oil, and Leek besides Dugtrio.

some that are top tier right now are being dropped to lower tiers due to theoretically being outclassed in the future (Gengar)
Gengar is absolutely not top tier. It has awful distribution of stats, perhaps the worst out of anything in the upper echelon. Even before 1.1.0 I had it below several ing mons.

The tier S definition is also unclear.
Definitions for every tier are given, separated by paragraphing and font. You have been referred to spreadsheet info time after time, it's specifically you failing to read points.

What makes Delibird or Pinsir S, but not Absol or Bewear?
If the tier definitions are not enough, there's also their individual rankings.

why is Gengar being the only source of mushrooms not taken into account?
It is, and clearly discussed in the changelogs.

why its outclassing taken into account for Gengar but not for MrMime
Mr. Mime literally clones most of the stats from Victreebell, it can hardly be described as outclassed at all

[obtuse loom]

so neither should be the case
With all due respect, that makes this a very unfocused and vague tier list, as it's using an unspecified bias in both directions that create somewhat contradictory results. Regardless of what you wrote on the spreadsheet, a list should be able to stand on its own for people to understand its intentions.

it's equal with Sylveon (arguably better for +1 skill level)
This is if you look purely at skills, there are other considerations to make such as general speed (of which Sylveon wins by about 10%) and ingredients.

and only bares a 2-3% skill value (not even trigger rate) difference from Gardevoir
See previous point.

Altaria is the only Yache specialist
Altaria is a slow Yache specialist. Not to mention, we don't even have a Yache island, so this point is completely moot.

and few mons starting with egg
Egg is a middling ingredient atm, not worth running a slow dedicated berry mon to gather the scraps. Altaria fails at both being a berry mon and an ingredient mon, to the point of being worthless as either or a hybrid. This is why everybody else ranks Altaria low as shit.

Ditto is the only ing mon besides Toxi for Oil
This isn't even the reason Ditto is at all decent atm? Oil is something plenty of decent mons already get, and most recipes don't need a dedicated Oil farmer.

It has awful distribution of stats
Literally tied for the fastest mon in the game. Gengar's 16% ingredient rate is pretty heftily offset by its insane speed. Did you know Gengar actually has a better ing-drop-rate-interval than Altaria, the mon you just touted as being more relevant because of its ingredients niche? Gengar is a fast Ghost type mon with a really powerful ingredient backing - it is the Hybrid.

Even before 1.1.0 I had it below several ing mons.
Yes, there are several ing mons better than Gengar. It still doesn't belong in middling B tier.

[obtuse loom]

Definitions for every tier are given, separated by paragraphing and font. You have been referred to spreadsheet info time after time
Your metric is the following;

"These helpers are "must-haves": stat spreads with a couple/no downsides, excel at a specific or several roles that elevate teams to another level. Would prioritise these above all else."

I could pin that description onto basically half the mons of the game.

If the tier definitions are not enough, there's also their individual rankings.
You inflated Delibird to S tier because it's an Egg specialist. Where's the condemnation for its abysmal (18%) stats? Why is this S tier but Gengar isn't? "Its ingreident pool is versatile" fuckin no it isn't. It's eggs and apples. Apples are a fine ingredient, nothing to write home about - weak on Curry weeks, high value on dessert weeks. Egg has decent recipes every week, but they're very high cost, and Delibird often isn't worth it to use for those recipes (except maybe Fruity Flan).

It is, and clearly discussed in the changelogs.
This is the issue they mentioned specifically; "some that are top tier right now are being dropped to lower tiers due to theoretically being outclassed in the future". You mentioned, verbatim, in your spreadsheet; "New additions are primed to outperform [Gengar], namely Dragonite and Abomasnow."

Mr. Mime literally clones most of the stats from Victreebell, it can hardly be described as outclassed at all
OK I think the issue here is you don't actually have a good definition for what "outclassed" means here. You use the word a lot, but it's used fairly inconsistently in your doc.

[torn whale]

1. It's explained much clearer in the spreadsheet than what I quoted, which is why I said to read that. One person not reading something does not make the description vague.

2. Sure Sylveon has faster speed, but Wiggly has a lower investment cost if evolved from base. If there's tradeoffs to be had, one does not sufficiently outclass the other.

4&5. Those points are enough to make the mons fit more in the descriptions of their respective tiers.

6. Much of this is straight up incorrect assuming. I never asserted Altaria being above Gengar, I didn't say this once here nor in my spreadsheet. And you really cooked with "the ingredient mon is better for ingredients than the berry mon"

7. You are entitled to that opinion, but don't forget that's all it is. People can and will disagree

[obtuse loom]

Mr Mime has a worse Ing% than Victreebel, the exact same speed, and the exact same ingredient list. The only difference between the two is the skill difference - where I think most people would argue Victreebel also wins out, even setting aside the fact that it's a three-stage instead of a two-stage for a free level up

[obtuse loom]

I never asserted Altaria being above Gengar
I didn't say you did. I was making a comparison about how you're panning a mon and uplifting a mon for identical reasons.

[torn whale]

Wrong, another difference is their berry type. "Winning out" is not the same as what Dunk was declaring

[obtuse loom]

...

Where Victreebel wins again?

[torn whale]

Greengrass exists, if you're saying that only bc the berries are shared on Lapis that's tunnel-vision

[obtuse loom]

You cannot say "Oh actually this mon that is inferior in every measurable way actually isn't worse because you might roll its berry on greengrass"

You put Mr Mime immediately below Victreebel

When literally anybody with a functioning calculator would tell you it is the definition of "outclassed"

Come on Azul, you can't actually believe this

[torn whale]

😮‍💨 their difference in performance is not enough for me to separate them by a whole tier. Sure this'd be a valid comparison to E4E mons, but absolutely not to smth like Gengar vs. Dnite

[obtuse loom]

OK I'd like to confirm something real quickly

Gengar is tiered lower because, although he was good before, he is being outclassed by mons with a few better stats than it, that do its job better, regardless of the fact they have a different berry and Gengar's other advantages

But in the same breath, Mr Mime is cushioned up right next to Victreebel despite it being better at literally nothing than Victreebel

Why is Gengar plummeting because of how outclassed it is

But Mime isn't

[torn whale]

And these "different berry and other advantages" are enough to keep it from dropping a whole tier? Banette is better for the former yet is in B, while other mons getting rare lv30 ings as an unlock are even further down. Gengar cannot even hit some of the Mushroom dishes till lv60, even if it did it'd still have worse usage case than high tier picks

[torn whale]

Mr. Mime has the capacity of hitting the same goals as Victreebell. It is not outperformed to a significant enough degree

[obtuse loom]

Can you be more articulate on exactly what those goals are, and is this within the scope of theoretically optimal mons, or just random ones anybody could have?

Because if I remembered correctly, the biggest reason for Dragonite being the new hype shit everybody loved was its ability to reliably hit top meals... except it can't, even with a perfectly mathematically flawless set

You have to skip and take some smaller meals with him anyways, even with a perfect team going with Helping Bonuses and everything

[torn whale]

Well literally nothing in the game can hit top meals right now, but there's no doubt Dnite is capable of hitting significantly higher benchmarks than Gengar

[obtuse loom]

By "top meals" do you mean the 45%s?

Or do you include the 35%s in "top meals"?

[torn whale]

I could, but I don't see why it's necessary. I explained the difference between Gengar's fall from grace vs. mons which are too similar for anything similar, that's what was questioned

[torn whale]

I mean post-update dishes by total ingredient cost

[obtuse loom]

... but which ones?

[torn whale]

For the sake of discussion Keema Curry is what's relevant

Technically, Greengrass Salad has relevance too. In the sense some Dnites want their lv60 Oil

[obtuse loom]

Then allow me to express my personal point of contention that I dislike the implication that fishing only for like, the top 5 recipes is the optimal way to play

[torn whale]

That's not even what I did for their rankings (not exclusively), you're the one who brought up Dnite not being able to hit top meals

[obtuse loom]

I was specifically referencing "Well literally nothing in the game can hit top meals right now"

Because I think a few "top meals" (see: top 15) can be hit reliably

[torn whale]

Yeah, in the sense that the things Dnite can't hit nothing else can either

[obtuse loom]

I know what you mean, but this statement is not correct, literally

There are several meals dnite cannot achieve that others can through different ingredient combinations

Even ones dnite can theoretically contribute to

Dragonite can't hit any of the top 15 meals with one partner, reliably

But plenty of mons do make good two-mon pairs to hit top meals

They're just none Dragonite would be used for

[torn whale]

I'm aware of that much. Out of what Gengar hits that Dnite cannot, nothing stands out. Neroli Tea has much stronger beneficiaries before you even consider better dishes with same relative reqs., Ninja Salad that's always been a tall order without lv60, and Ninja Curry. Where you're bringing a whole mon for just 5 drops

So to reiterate, I did consider and make my decision with all of Gengar's dishes in mind (not just those I named)

[torn whale]

Even with lv30 there are several Dnite can hit, some needing assumptions others not. Explosion Popcorn can be duo'd with an Oil mon if using Sylv E4E, Calm Mind Salad with Pinsir (Dnite deffo hits its quota, Pinsir depends on build), Corn Stew seems possible too but idk if its % is worthy. There are some trios of note but many also apply to Gengar

[brittle summit]

See this is exactly the problem I am talking about. You overrate Altaria and Delibird because of the egg niche (which is very small and in the first case not even good at it) yet completely dismiss Gengar's niche of Mushrooms, which is more relevant and Gengar is actually good at it

if Dragonite was not in the game Gengar would be a top3 ingredient mon both at level 50 and 60

[obtuse loom]

Notably though, Golem also exists

[brittle summit]

I am talking about current level cap though, we dont know when it will be lifted

if we knew its not gonna be lifted until 2025 shouldnt Gengar be higher for its mushroom niche? I think it should

[torn whale]

I addressed Delibird and Egg numerous times already, and I absolutely did not miss Gengar's Mushrooms. Did you not even read the message right above this?

[obtuse loom]

Calm

Both of you

[torn whale]

Oh I am. Is it wrong of me to point out the repeated not reading messages then criticizing bc of that failure?

[obtuse loom]

Azul

Stop it

You're being incendiary

[torn whale]

I am not. How else do you want me to respond to the same messages besides "I already addressed them"?

[obtuse loom]

That's fine

"I addressed that earlier here [xyz]" is fine

[brittle summit]

I did read it. But in your explanations there is nothing mentioning Gengar's current niche as the only mushroom provider

[obtuse loom]

"Did you not even read the message right above this?" is not

Nor is "Is it wrong of me to point out the repeated not reading messages"

[brittle summit]

Plus, what I am trying to say is the way pokemon being outclassed is being taken into account is not consistent. Wigglytuff is almost strictly outclassed by Gardevoir. It can only claim an advantage in a single island, plus some ingredient utility in certain weeks, but it is a very very small niche nowadays

[torn whale]

This entire message is talking about Gengar's Mushroom usage. I asked if they read the message that addresses their concern, literally making a problem out of nothing 😅

[obtuse loom]

I asked if they read the message that addresses their concern
There are way nicer ways to say it

[brittle summit]

Gengar is never completely outclassed by Dragonite because it can actually work alongside him, plus of course the Mushroom niche only Gengar has right now

[torn whale]

You said I was being incendiary though, not that I was being impolite

[obtuse loom]

"I addressed this concern in the message above"
"I mentioned this just earlier, see here"
These are good

"Are you just ignoring my posts?"
"Are you incapable of rational thought?"
Are not good.

Your comments lean much closer to the latter group than the former.

You are phrasing things not just in an impolite way, but in a pointed and aggressive way

Being impolite one thing

This is poking your toe over the line and testing the waters

[torn whale]

The user has a trend of not reading things through before complaining about them. Reminding them to read has practically beceme a necessity, that's what I did. Asking it as a question is not starting any problems, for all I know they could have and still have concerns, or misinterpreted something

[obtuse loom]

You also have a history of using inflammatory language to get a rise out of someone you disagree with

[obtuse loom]

Asking it as a question is not starting any problems
This is just wholly untrue

The types of questions you ask are important

For example, take the following question

[obtuse loom]

"Are you stupid?"

I'm "just asking a question", but it's obviously attacking you

You're doing that ^ but on a weaker scale atm

[torn whale]

And you have a history of making incorrect assumptions? Like why is the past always being imposed on every single action I take? I'm not doing it to you, that's unfair treatment

[obtuse loom]

Like why is the past always being imposed on every single action I take?
???

"Why is my criminal history relevant for my sentencing of this crime, your honor?"

Anyways

I have to hop off for a bit

Both of you

Play nice

[brittle summit]

I definitely do read everything. If anything part of why I am trying to point out is that explanations aren't clear enough sometimes. The explanation might be clear in your head but if it is not actually written down in the spreadsheet it is hard for other people to know

[torn whale]

You are paralleling "did you read this message" to past arguments, when literally no arguments occurred here and in reality my behaviour is nowhere near like it was during those situations. There's no "crime" to be found here, it's kinda bs that I keep getting mod enforcement over nothing

[torn whale]

All the more reason for me to ask and see if that was the case

I wouldn't have known otherwise

So do dumb down that Gengar message, I named the Mushroom dishes that have the best shot at relevance and explained why Gengar is poorly suited to them.

I clarified after that I looked at every dish, not just those named ones, when I put Gengar in B.

[obtuse loom]

What are your thoughts on SAPI's recipe tierlists

[brittle summit]

How can it be poorly suited to them if he's the only one who can make them right now? That's what I dont understand

Plus having gained a lot of value on his other 2 ingredients thanks to the new recipes?

[torn whale]

The exact reasons are given in that message

[torn whale]

In Qril and my discussion, we both seemed to share the sentiment that even Dnite can't hit all the new recipes rn. Whatever it can't do Gengar has no shot of either

[torn whale]

Well it shows just by looking that it's generated statistically, basing off dish values and coverage etc.

[obtuse loom]

My point was that "you can't duo the 45% recipes" isn't a good threshold for goodness

Gengar can hit 35% recipes reliably

Dragonite cannot

Dragonite is your best chance to hitting 45%s

but you dont hit them reliably (ie: persistently, on average)

[torn whale]

It can though was my response. Popcorn and Calm Mind are both feasible, Dnite's end is not the variable factor

[brittle summit]

can any pokemon though?

[torn whale]

No, unless you dedicate every team slot which I wouldn't recommend

Also ain't it 35 and 48?

[brittle summit]

then how is it relevant I dont get

Gengar can duo a lot of the 25% dishes at 60

which most pokemon that are tiered higher cannot

he also can do it on all 3 types of dishes, most pokemon struggle in other weeks

[torn whale]

Oh right, when I was talking about it I was referring to top dishes by ingredient cost, not percentage. Calm Mind is 48% so Dnite actually can hit those without lv60, even going as far as duo

What it can't rn are the 60-70+ ings dishes

[torn whale]

What are the assumptions made? Looks like bare minimum, i.e. no skills/natures

On Dnite's end it easily hits the corn reqs at lv50, +ing nature and any additional hs/ing/energy

A high end lv50 Pinsir can hit Apple, but needs one more mon for Honey

[brittle summit]

assumptions are perfect skill and nature

[torn whale]

Besides, I'm not seeing the part where Gengar duos a 35% dish

[torn whale]

And level?

[brittle summit]

50

[torn whale]

What are said "perfect skill and nature"?

[brittle summit]

rash nature ing finder M helping speed M helping speed S

[brittle summit]

25% dish

not sure there's anyone who can duo the 35% dishes either

gengar is the best option at both 50 and 60 for some of the 35% dishes though

Ninja Curry he's the best option at any level

[torn whale]

Oh nvm it wasn't duo 35% but "hitting reliably". Gengar certainly does not hit Mushroom reliably enough for the Salad pre-60

[torn whale]

Ah no wonder then. For one IFM over HSS is markedly better, but it does seem like E4E and HB are needed for Apple. But replacing those with Go Plus + Pika does make up the difference

[brittle summit]

actually that was a typo, it was IFM IFS HSM

not HSS

[torn whale]

If it's lv50 you only got two

[brittle summit]

there's only one 25% dish that can be duo'd at 50 anyway

[torn whale]

Wait I'm wrong

[brittle summit]

3

[torn whale]

So my calcs had margin for error and you still hit the goals 😅

Yeah IGM IGS HSM and Nature is enough with no HB and one E4E

[brittle summit]

checking these calcs has actually convinced me Gengar is better than I thought honestly

[torn whale]

Which enables a reliable trio

[brittle summit]

because it actually pairs up really well for certain level 60 dishes with other mushroom pokemon

[torn whale]

The only selling point I'm seeing for Gengar is that Shroom Salad duo with Aboma. That needs a specific build which is worse for everything else besides Popcorn, smth that can be hit without lv60

*by other mons

Considering that, B is fair now and unlikely to drop any further

[trim needle]

Agreed!

[brittle summit]

Gengar also has a niche on Ninja Salad, plus a lot of versatility other ingredient mons dont have

[torn whale]

Versatility? Its only dishes of note are a salad it can't contribute well enough for till 60, another that's notorious for being too demanding at lv50, and a sub 20% curry

Not to mention its budget Dragonite hits, several of which it lacks the capability for

Besides you even described Gengar yourself as niche earlier, the opposite of versatile

[torn whale]

I forgot to address the "if it is not actually written down in the spreadsheet it is hard for other people to know". No other user here has repeatedly misreported info that's present on the sheet to this extent, so I'm inclined to believe it's user error. Besides, if others are able to redirect to an answered question on the sheet, it's hardly an issue with my presentation

[brittle summit]

No, I mentioned Gengar currently covers a niche nothing else can, Mushrooms. Turns out Mushrooms are versatile

[brittle summit]

Completely false and uncalled for

Every time I have pointed out something was missing it was indeed missing

Sincerely, my only hope is to help improve the detail of the descriptions so that it is more useful to users. As well as to address potential inconsistencies in tiering. I do not understand why you take this as personal

[torn whale]

I mean not to argue, but it was barely a day ago when you claimed "nobody knows [about whether lv60 is considered] thats kind of the problem", when it was made clear not just in the description but under several individual mons

[brittle summit]

It is extremely inconsistently considered or not considered. Therefore it is unclear to a detailed observer.

It is only 'clear' if you read it is about level 60 but then dont examine it in detail

Which I believe can be misleading for people just giving a cursory glance

I have actually mentioned ways you can address this, such as by adding explanations to pokemon such as Gengar or Ditto

[torn whale]

You do realize tier lists almost never have documentation to begin with? And any "potential inconsistencies" can easily be swung by preference, there are dozens of comparisons that can go either way depending on how you weigh various aspects

[torn whale]

What does this even mean? I don't know what isn't clear to you about "utility with or without [lv60] should be considered [for ingredient mons]"

[brittle summit]

What I mean is that if you actually examine the list that statement is not consistent. If utility without level 60 should be considered, then Gengar is top tier for being the only source of mushrooms

[torn whale]

It's inconsistent for a reason. For one it's a consideration that's specifically made for ingredient mons, as made obvious by the explanations for how each specialty is treated

[brittle summit]

So that statement only makes sense to someone who has not examined the information in detail

[torn whale]

That conclusion isn't supported my my spreadsheet at all, nor would I intend it to ever be. Otherwise, mons like the Slowpoke line and Dugtrio would be way higher than they are

If anything, moving Gengar closer to Dugtrio's place would make more sense from your logic

[brittle summit]

It is because you apply that same logic to Delibird

Slowpokes and Dugtrio have, like Delibird, quite low power at level 50 despite their niche

Gengar has general power + currently covers a niche nothing else can

[torn whale]

I applied it for being a starting ingredient for one. Prior to its release no other ingredient mon has it in their pool at all, several mons besides Gengar can unlock Shroom

[brittle summit]

Dugtrio is much closer to Delibird than it is to Gengar

[brittle summit]

no ingredient mon right now has mushroom access

there is already one other ingredient mon (and this was already true on release) with eggs

this is what I mean by inconsistent logic

[torn whale]

I'm deliberately not trying to say that. And there's nothing inconsistent about the logic, accessibility to eggs and to shrooms are very different cases

Treating different cases the same is what would be illogical

[brittle summit]

why is ''starting'' relevant

are you aware that it is less likely to roll eggs at 30 with delibird than it is with snover?

on top of delibird being rarer and harder to catch

[torn whale]

Where in the world are you getting that from?

I don't even see why it's worth mentioning, when Snover actually has a probability to not roll eggs unlike Delibird

[brittle summit]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sOYIIs89ndq4DJFVSe7SpJWSF449EPm7NKpmGmyf1lw/edit#gid=0

if you currently want a strong source of eggs you have a 66% chance of snover getting eggs at 30 vs 33% for delibird

[torn whale]

It's very relevant to how the tier list is designed. It's comments like this that make me skeptical of how you approach here

If your objective was genuinely to provide constructive feedback, why have you came to me on several separate occasions to complain about how I treated Delibird?

[obtuse loom]

I dont like this, because actually most high end tier lists for most games I play do actually come with a nice hunk of documentation. SleepAPI's has a lot of documentation and mathematical basis for their rankings, just as a direct competitor.

I fact I fail to think of any game I play that doesn't have some documented details somewhere outlining rationale

[torn whale]

When I say tier list I refer to Tier Maker

[brittle summit]

If starting is relevant then pokemon that are available earlier and are easy to level up, evolve, etc should be higher. Which again should be making certain pokemon that are very common like Gengar get bumped up

It is very unlikely someone just starting out will manage to find and catch Delibird

and even if they lucked out and did they would have a hard time leveling him up

(would still be pretty good granted)

[obtuse loom]

The top tier lists in most games come with requisite info regardless of where they're constructed.

[torn whale]

Which is what YouTubers commonly use to clickbait videos, random users on the site making vaguely defined lists and uploading them, and so forth. Very different from the example you're giving, which is generated through vastly different means

[brittle summit]

fwiw if things like that are taken into account, I think both Dodrio and Clefable should be ranked much lower, as they are an absolute pain to catch and level up for beginners

[obtuse loom]

Fun fact: most Tier Maker videos are supplemented with "the rest of the video" which often includes explanations

[torn whale]

Fun fact: a video isn't a document, it's a completely separate file type

[brittle summit]

in particular dodrio, as it really is barely available until you unlock lapis while only being good for Cian... a great combination

[torn whale]

Different word pal

[brittle summit]

definition 2: recording

[torn whale]

For one I was addressing the fact that the wrong word was pulled. And yes, words have different definitions, someone like Qril is competent enough to figure out when the correct one is being used

[obtuse loom]

You were the one who used the word documentation

[torn whale]

Doubt

[obtuse loom]

Read

[obtuse loom]

Your comment was a non sequitur

Because nobody talked about "a document"

We talked about documentation

[torn whale]

Why would you pick out the older message, not the newer one that would be more likely to have corrected typos or oversights from the prior?

It just feels like you're arguing for the sake of it by nitpicking in that manner

[obtuse loom]

What are you talking about

I picked out the one that sparked the conversation

You're completely changing course and shifting goalposts because you were wrong

Your statement about tier lists not having documentation, is just wrong

You said videos don't tend to have documentation

Then I said "the video itself is documentation"

Then you quoted the definition for a document

Not documentation

Brother, you were the one who shifted the goalposts here

[torn whale]

I stated "documents" before you had a chance to go fishing for documents. That isn't moving goalposts, otherwise it'd be me correcting to document after your definition show-off

Clearly the original statement lacked detail, given from the fact I had to clarify what was meant by "tier lists". Someone wanting something constructive here would inquire about the phrasing, not jump on some right vs. wrong vendetta

[obtuse loom]

This was the first time you mentioned "a document"

Which, as I mentioned, is a non sequitur

And you didn't actually correct yourself

You tried to correct me

When I took what you said at your word

[torn whale]

I used the word "document", afterward you showed a picture of "documentation". Hot damn it almost looks like you got mixed up with the words that was actually on your screen, not some to scroll up for

Regardless, I was using the word in the context of file types, which has a meaning not shown in any of the screenshots

[obtuse loom]

My reply was indicating the word you used was "documentation", not "document"

[obtuse loom]

Why would that matter whatsoever then?

Even if we take your statement at face value

And assume you meant written file

Why would that matter?

Tons of documentation exists for a bunch of tier lists and such that aren't strictly documents

For example, the Mathcast provides a lot of listed reasoning for our opinions verbally

It doesn't need to be written down to be recorded or referencible

In fact, I believe every citation style has a case for non written material

[torn whale]

That is the minority. Out of the tier lists that have been created on Tier Maker, the majority come with nothing. No video, no files' Zero, zilch, nada

[obtuse loom]

The majority aren't meaningful lists either

The ones with a following, nearly always are presented with reasoning

All the Mathcord tier lists

All the ones big online personalities post

The ones that don't aren't relevant, which is what I mentioned on the onset

[obtuse loom]

Hence "top tier lists" here

Because the ones that aren't the top ones don't matter

You are being held to a standard that is equal to your peers here

[torn whale]

Cool, you're free to your subjective outlook on what tier lists are meaningful. Should that be the same for everyone? I'll let someone else die on that hill

[obtuse loom]

Yes? Like, the line is obviously fuzzy - but nobody is gonna say "the tier list touted on the resources page of the largest Pokémon Sleep server is equal in relevance to one Little Johnny with 1 week of play experience made in his personal server of 30"

You're held to the higher standard friendo

[torn whale]

Point is, I'm seeing a whole lot of meaningless debating for a resource that didn't need to have as much to it as it does

[obtuse loom]

Let's also recheck something: just because you document (verb) something, doesn't mean it's true

Nor does "putting a lot of hard work into it"

The debating here comes from the fact that your resource itself has a lot of aspects that, especially me and Dunk, find questionable

Especially since the reasoning in your list is consistently inconsistent

And as long as you want to keep posting your tier list in a big official place, you're going to have to stand up to questioning

If you want to become Little Johnny and never have to face scrutiny, you have to take your feet off the big stage

[torn whale]

Sure you're entitled to that opinion. I know numerous others, not limited to the silent majority, do not have that qualm whatsoever. If the inconsistencies weren't off subjective takes, I'm sure there wouldn't be users redirecting to parts of my list or quoting my answers to already posed questions

[torn whale]

Sure! But if people are gonna make claims off a poor foundation they should expect to face similar scrutiny

[obtuse loom]

The people who argue eith you also tend to be better educated in this degree than the people who don't

[obtuse loom]

Well, yeah? That's the nature of a debate?

If someone comes and makes an informed reply, you can make an informed rebuttal

That's how debates and constructive conversations happen

I'm noting I see a lot of the former and very little of the latter though, which is what we took issue with a few days ago with that big argument

[torn whale]

You'd think that's fine right? Except when you draw nonexistent parallels to past arguments which only gets in the way of positive debates.

Take several hours ago, I posed a genuine question to Dunk, out of suspicion of a misunderstanding or smth to that extent, which I ended up being correct on. Only for you to jump in midway to try disengaging a non-threatening situation

Like I do want to keep this thread going to keep receiving these queries, however you're making this incredibly taxing moreso than it ought to be. But if I'm gonna keep being disrespected and antagonized at every junction I don't see an alternative to shutting down shop

[trim needle]

@brittle summit holy shit make your own tier list already

[brittle summit]

I think a tier list made by only 1 person is bound to have some bias so I'm unsure it would solve much

[violet saffron]

I've removed it from #resources-research-communities currently. It may go back up, but only under the disclaimer that this is your own personal take on what you believe everything should be tiered at.

Unless specifications can be made as to where this tier list is being aimed at
-Beginner friendly?
-Most versatile?
-best to have endgame?
-Overall best?

There needs to be a single consistent metric they're all being based on. If multiple, then there should be multiple tier lists for various specifications done, with them a "overall" created weighing all those metrics

[torn whale]

Honestly, this (i.e. tier lists are subjective and ultimately ranked by the creator[s]) should be an assumption made with all human-made tier lists no matter how many individuals involved. It is the case and at the same time a limitation with tier lists down to their roots.

If I am required to clarify that I have no problem doing so, but I do feel the post being deleted before consultation is hasty given I never explicitly made it out like my list is any official guidance.

Though if you're questioning that I never specified the target of the tier list, that is incorrect. The very first paragraph in my spreadsheet opens with that info:
"The aim of this resource is to present which helpers to use, across varying levels of gameplay. Whether it's your first week and you're not sure what to catch, or you've been playing since release and trying to come up with teams to build"

[torn whale]

Can you elaborate more on exactly what you want added and how?

Out of those example specifications, half of them are no better than the objectives I outlined. There's no clear-cut definition for "most versatile" or "overall best", making it really hard to see what you're expecting out of this

Put that thought on hold actually. I've experienced overwhelmingly negative reception from here this last week which has been handled just as poorly by staff, I do direct that at the team as a whole not any one person.

As a result I lost in faith in the server; while I'm open to compromising in the tier list's presentation, I'm just as much disappointed by the lack of respect. I've been maintaining the tier list since release, garnered interest from hundreds of users. All it took was one bad egg repeatedly complaining about their failure to understand the spreadsheet, for everything to go out the window.

[obtuse loom]

If I may correct, all it took was your terrible and persistent response to such "bad eggs"

[torn whale]

As endorsed by you earlier ^

Despite being prompted with equally terrible and persistent responses (a sentiment shared with and pointed out by many users besides myself), I've been selectively blamed and punished.

I did make the effort to avoid such incidents by reporting problems in DMs. Despite promises to review, they remained ignored and unaddressed.

Simply put, there have been failures on the staff end in handling the matter appropriately. Intervention was dropping in favour of actively fanning the flames, joining arguments and making things worse.

[torn whale]

This makes it out like there were alternatives in the matter. I would be pinged here on a daily basis to participate in discussions, when I made clear my dismay I was shut down and forced to allow misgivings.

Mods should be aiming to provide a welcoming community, not nurturing toxic behaviour. Instead of trying to compromise, the first port of call was delete all association with the resource then present an irrational ultimatum.

Well over an hour and no response from Deeebs? They dropped-in just to slap me in the face huh. I'm done with all this, no point trying to contribute when I'm clearly not welcomed

It's been a good run, thanks to those who have been supportive of my endeavours 🙏

[whole valley]

As someone who has been reading all of these interactions this seems silly to say you’re not welcomed when this infighting all started like a week ago when dunk was asking reasonable questions and you tried to call a mod on him to get him to stop discussing

I will say some of your messages in the most recent part I don’t think were taken charitably

But I think everyone here has high tensions and is not taking things in a charitable light

[torn whale]

I was not comfortable with an argument that dragged on for hours repeating the same points over and over. Dunk was hardly reasonable at that time, straight up insulting me for having a different outlook. Besides, there's a lot from behind the scenes Qril would repeatedly try holding against me, like drama they were part of in another server.

I didn't want to mention it since bringing other server drama is quite petty, but a server mod did set the precedence and wasn't punished for it.

They took their personal dislike of my tier list and decision-making, used it against me to have me removed as a contributor from their server, and clearly wanted the same outcome here.

I had reported issues even weeks before anything involving Dunk. Not a single acknowledgement was given, and promises to never came to be.

[obtuse loom]

This is the sort of reasons why I don't take what you say in a charitable light

Because my dislike of your tier list has nothing to do with any of this, including the Mathcord debacle

Both this AND the mathcord were entirely because you were argumentative and refusing to take any sort of criticism

I wouldn't "bring in other drama" if it wasn't explicitly and directly related to this incident

it's:

1. The same tier list
2. With the same problems
3. Being criticized in much the same ways
4. Resulting in you reacting in the same negative way

[torn whale]

The Mathcord situation was ultimately something you caused, with snide remarks at me and insulting my integrity. With the past history between us, you should not have been getting involved with me here too if you were going to argue most of the time.
You are indeed the one bringing Mathcord into the equation inappropriately. Claiming I was removed from your server's role for a completely fabricated reason to give the impression of a similar trend

I never even had "modship" or remotely requested for such in Mathcord. You made up that detail to draw nonexisting similarities to the past, to make your agenda seem acceptable

[obtuse loom]

The reason was explicitly because you said you didn't have to listen to anybody with regards to how you built your tier list

[torn whale]

And why do you think I said that? You were trying to enforce changes using the fact you were the server owner, despite our agreement of me publishing any changes at my convenience.

Instead of handling that in an appropriate manner, like reaching out privately to express your concerns, you publicly insulted me, assumed I have no experience with data and creating resources

So in reality, there's hardly similarity to what happened here at all. The situation you're referring to is one you admitted to handling poorly and apologized for. But here, you pretend like none of that was the case and it was all my doing

[obtuse loom]

Saying I admitted to handling it poorly doesn't mean you were at all correct in the situation, nor does it mean that I was wrong in my worries

I apologized for being rash about removing you. I do not think removing you was the wrong decision - I think doing so as expediently as I did was an error.

We even tried to have a conversation to see if the specific thing I took issue with was fixable

And with an audience on your side, you were lobbed probably the easiest good faith questions in the world

Which you snubbed and ran away from

Which completely reinforced that the decision to remove you was ultimately correct

[torn whale]

Indeed, I refused because I did not like I was being made to fight my way back onto the server's contributor position. I harboured suspicions that you would continue to berate and argue with me even if I did.

Evidently I was right in assuming so, you would bring arguments with me across servers after all. That same sorta behaviour you apologized for only continued again and again, both here and in DMs.

[obtuse loom]

No, the arguments about your tier list wasn't what I apologized for

And you seem to have wholly misunderstood what that conversation was about

And what I apologized for

You're still in a position of scrutiny here - and your behavior here would have gotten you kicked out of the Contributor position in the Mathcord many times over anyways

The exact thing I apologized for, is not something I have since replicated in your case - your insinuation that it has suggests to me a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues I presented in the Mathcord and continue to present here today.

[torn whale]

Well enlighten me, what was the apology for? Making disrespectful assumptions about my character? Because that's all I would've wanted for me to have compromised.

Even if that's what your apology was for, it clearly didn't hold sincerety given you only go and make the same insults in DMs

Oh yeah I recall it better now, it was strictly for removing me as early as you did.

You didn't seem to care about the way you, the server owner, carried yourself and how it had caused offense. That was the deciding factor in wanting to step away from Mathcord.

But you didn't leave it at that, even before anything with Dunk you would keep goading me with snide remarks.

Oh let's not forget the abusing authority to delete messages just because you didn't like them. That's smth you also did here, even for posts that don't breach any rules. But I suppose that's something Deeebs is willing to overlook

[faint stag]

fwiw as an unrelated third party that whole arguing about the definition of "document" when you said documentation first really puts you in a bad light

[torn whale]

I'm only human, when after hours of pointless arguing over several days a guy keeps going by screenshotting definitions of a word to prove you wrong, naturally I'll be agitated by that point

Especially given there's no point in that argument besides getting under the skin of the other person. "Forget asking what documentation they meant, let's make them look dumb instead!" is the mentality there

Well really, you shouldn't be putting either person specifically in bad light but both, arguing over the word "documentation" is beyond petty. It sucks being a mod nabs you a free pass on all misgivings

[whole valley]

I agree that some things were petty (such as your ‘incendiary’ comments) but I fail to see how arguing over documentation was petty when they said that videos have additional explanation after the discussion was videos not having additional documentation and then you said that videos aren’t documents. That doesn’t seem petty to me, it seems perfectly relevant to the conversation

[torn whale]

😮‍💨 yes, videos aren't a type of document. File types don't work like that. But whether it's relevant or not, the approach of screenshotting words to prove a point instead of civilly finding the misunderstanding is petty, an especially poor example for a mod to set

[faint stag]

you were the one splitting hairs over the definition first when he brought up videos which were absolutely relevant to the point, and comparing yourself to random tiermaker tier lists posted by people with no explanation whatsoever is a really low bar

[torn whale]

To begin with, I brought documents into the equation to point out how majority of tier lists out there don't come with any. I for one filled one to great detail just to satisfy requests, but in exchange for the effort I get users coming to me with zero respect and bombardment with critique

In other words, there was never meant to be a supporting document in the first place. I get criticism for not having one, when I do it's not enough detail

[faint stag]

I respect the work put into it but it feels like you... aren't receptive to feedback at all

[torn whale]

That certainly isn't the case. In the history of the tier list I've made dozens of changes based on critique. Those were raised politely and respectfully unlike Qril and co.

For example, when I had mons like Dodrio and Ditto in S early gates. Similar deal with E4E mons which I dropped, when people said they should go back up I was plenty receptive of backpedalling

However, when someone like Qril opens with "do you even look at mons before tiering them" that isn't providing good feedback, that's an insult

For context, that's what they opened with for the situation leading to my punishments. Being offended by that equated to not being accepting of feedback

And yes, Dunk also made numerous insults during our initial discussion

@faint stag for the record I'm talking times well before you were on the server, several month ago or some as far back as July. But times change ig, the magic this server had during release just isn't there

[whole valley]

This is wild considering people can check the messages. You literally told dunk they had a skill issue and then you’re considering it an insult that they used it in their reply to you about the point they were making? And before the first picture you literally sent a face smacking emoji. Like I don’t understand how you think they are insulting you when they were asking reasonable questions and you were being obstinate putting them down and now saying they insulted you

[torn whale]

I'm not sure where you're getting the misguided impression that "all Dunk did was ask reasonable questions". I answered them several times, which they refute by saying "you're wrong" over and over. That isn't constructive criticism, nor is it positive feedback. It is insulting another's integrity and stubborn refusal to accept other views

[west crow]

[torn whale]

You literally told dunk they had a skill issue and then you’re considering it an insult that they used it in their reply to you about the point they were making?
What no, that first message is just there to include their tag. Do you not see a problem with telling someone "you can't accept when you're wrong" just because they hold a different opinion?

If that's not considered rude on the server rather perfectly acceptable, I clearly outstayed my welcome

[whole valley]

I’m at work right now so I can’t go through the history but from what I remember they were making reasonable points about why leafeon should be considered equal if not better than umbreon and you were refusing to see their point of view. I wouldn’t consider their message rude when it seemed to be the case

[torn whale]

From early gates I provided where I gave my thoughts on Leafeon vs. Umbreon. I made it clear that I don't value the randomness of its skill, but Dunk kept trying to sell said randomness to me

That's not me refusing to hear them out. They're actively feeding me information I already knew, it wasn't till Qril proving an actual method to utilize Leafeon that something of value was gleamed

[whole valley]

Which they refuted by pointing out that proccing on anything other than itself is an advantage which is a perfectly reasonable point

[torn whale]

Great, and I also refuted by saying E4E can proc on anything including itself, is a more energy efficient and practical usage skill outclassing in every department

[whole valley]

But they were asking why it was ranked lower than umbreon which that has nothing to do with

[torn whale]

Well I had already quoted where I gave the reason

[whole valley]

That doesn’t answer the question though which goes back to you being obstinate. The reason you said is just that it’s random

But that doesn’t refute their point at all

[torn whale]

"Umbreon lacking said issue" is something else I clearly said. It doesn't have a random natured skill, hence doesn't rely on luck for a potential one-upping. It's simply my preference for a consistent, clear use skill

So I did very much compare Leafeon and Umbreon, providing my reason for one being higher rated

[whole valley]

Yeah but that point doesn’t hold up when like they said you’d prefer the energy on anyone else besides those two

[faint stag]

100% for a mid outcome vs 50% or higher chance for a better outcome

your reasoning doesnt add up

[whole valley]

Exactly

[faint stag]

favouring consistency isnt a valid argument when the example is one of being consistently mediocre vs a chance to get something better

its like comparing getting $1 regardless of which face a dice rolls, vs getting the $value of the dice face you roll

one is more consistent and less random for sure

but that doesn't make it better

[torn whale]

You're right, favouring consistency is not an argument, it's an opinion. You need to ask yourself does that added value provide any practicality, the answer to that is no. I'm not making a tier list exclusively for Eeveelutions but every mon (technically excl. pre-evos), in that scope a slightly better use case for random energy is still bottom tier quality

[faint stag]

getting the $value of the dice face you roll is mathematically better in this case, which is the point you're ignoring

objectively speaking, leafeon has a better skill than umbreon

[torn whale]

Whereas Umbreon, as I said in the spreadsheet, has an actual niche in self-sufficiency, providing consistent ing and berry drops in teams without a need for E4E.
I am not ignoring your point, I'm stating that a potential outcome of value that isn't much higher is negligible

Besides, why do you feel such a need to argue this? The damage has been done, foul play from mods is gonna be swept under the carpet looking at how this unfolded, my tier list has been successfully driven off the server

[faint stag]

the point here was more of it's not that people have a grudge or agenda against you, nor are they trying to bring you down or sabotage your tier list, it just feels like you're overly defensive and hostile to most feedback

[torn whale]

^

[faint stag]

now this is strictly my opinion, of course

[torn whale]

And I'm sure it looks that way to you, given how you sorely lack context

I did try to provide as much of it as I can, if you don't care for that nothing I can do

These comments are about the same individual who issued several mutes for making an idiom about faeces that didn't land, blaming others for not understanding what they meant

[obtuse loom]

Feel free to repost without the specific one that breaks Rule 8

Also, all those comments were from Dec 18, the day of the Mathcord incident, and is not at all reflective of my conduct in this situation

[obtuse loom]

Also, source? I'm not sure if I've ever, in the history of this channel on the server, saw you say something like "That's a really going point, I'll change my tier list"

[torn whale]

I named which changes I'm referring to, and what benefit is there in me doing the backtracking rather than letting you? As I said, the damage has already been done, you got a voice you didn't like out of the picture

[obtuse loom]

Ah yes, "out of the picture", that's exactly where you are rn

[obtuse loom]

I presume you mean this - which you say is the case, but this is also

A: Like over 6 months ago
B: Just a claim, which I can't actually verify with any content in this channel

[obtuse loom]

Also, I claim Russel's Teapot

what benefit is there in me doing the backtracking rather than letting you?

That which is asserted without proof can be dismissed as such too

It's not possible for me to wade through tens of thousands of messages to prove definitively it never happened (proving a negative isn't really possible), but if it's something that's happened "dozens" of times, it shouldn't be hard for you to find something you initially disagreed with but changed you mind over with a conversation

[torn whale]

Couple minutes of scrolling and I find one example already

[obtuse loom]

That I guess technically qualifies, but I consider that an incredibly weak example

You realizing something after someone mentioned something indirectly isn't quite the same as you changing your opinion

If they said, for example "Shouldn't Wiggly be higher, because it's more advantageous..." then that would be a stronger case

But "Hm, I wonder if this would be better for me" isn't a criticism

[torn whale]

I had several discussions with Panders about numerous movement suggestions. All very constructive stuff made without snide, often resulting in a likeminded positive response

[obtuse loom]

wait this is also like 6 months ago lol

[torn whale]

There were such cases with Golem too, I could credit many users for their inputs

[obtuse loom]

Wait both of these examples were

so you're providing examples from the first 2 weeks of the game when nobody knew anything lol

Sorry, this was actually Day 15, mb - outside the first two weeks

[torn whale]

Well what do you expect? Thanks to what happened on Mathcord it's not exactly easy to get messages spread across the more frequent activity that took place there

[obtuse loom]

Wait why would that at all be relevant?

The incident at the mathcord happened less than 2 months ago

there's a pretty wide 4 month period between now and when you joined the mathcord

but moreso I meant in this channel

So lemme rephrase

To clarify my point a bit more

Since you left the mathcord and came into this channel

Have you received any piece of feedback in this channel that you have actioned in any ways onto your tier list that you didn't already agree with

That's a month and a half window here, and the Dunk thing was like a week and a half ago

So you should have a whole month of feedback and criticism to build off of here

[torn whale]

To begin with, this is more of that behaviour people gotten annoyed by. You make a claim proven to be wrong, would go to any lengths to defend and justify your actions. Like asking for server proof making it out like there is none, I provide it and you pile on excuses.

What 4 months are you talking about? I was invited to Mathcord 4th of August, conveniently after that time period of messages I could dig up.

Much of this month back here I was still putting together the spreadsheet. People were confused by the sudden changes, didn't know where to find info and the sheet wasn't even available yet

[obtuse loom]

That's a perfectly reasonably reply

"The last month before Dunk, I haven't had much activity to generally respond to since it was fresh coming back and I wanted to rebuild somewhat"

That's a completely reasonable explanation

[obtuse loom]

You make a claim proven to be wrong, would go to any lengths to defend and justify your actions.
To be fair here, I did actually cite "6 months ago" as a specific grievance before this

And it isn't really representative of the current state of the channel/population/knowledge we have

[torn whale]

Crazy, it's almost like mods allowed for and even enabled the channel to reach this state by actively becoming part of the problem with it. Wonder how it all would've turned out if you chose not to instigate arguments and led with defusing them

[obtuse loom]

Brother you pinged the mods

After YOU were the problem

I wasnt even involved in the big conversation you got heated over

You can point and scream all you like about me, but the "behavior" in this channel entirely spawned off you

My engagement in this channel before that mod ping that led to a spiral was strictly positive

[torn whale]

Oh here we go again, let's forget that an argument takes two to tango and the other user made just as demeaning remarks. "Let's not defuse the situation but prolong it and go after one user, that'll surely fix it"

[obtuse loom]

And yeah, I did actually go through from December to late January to see

[obtuse loom]

The other user made like two demeaning remarks after you made a dozen

One person was throwing punches, and the other person was blocking and dodging them

Anyways

[torn whale]

If you're really gonna argue that a mod's first priority shouldn't be to make sure users interact civilly, that goes to further the problems I'm raising with the staff's lack of professionalism. So much for leading by example

[torn whale]

Great, so "don't stop punches from being thrown instead throw hands yourself" is meant to be a good solution? Because to me, that's acting out of bias against someone you fell out with in the past, being blinded to the professional approach to a discussion gone wrong

[obtuse loom]

See Azul, the main difference here is you think I'm attacking and/or discriminating against you, when instead, users that have been as obstinate as you in the past have been banned for less

I'm trying to extend you courtesy as a relevant member in the community by talking to you directly head-to-head, in an open forum

I'm trying to explain to you the plethora of issues you're exhibited in the past - and I'm not saint by any means, I'm far from a perfect mod or a person

And I realized and apologized before for acting too brashly against you in the past

[trim needle]

if u think his tier list wrong then make your own!

[obtuse loom]

We do have our own lol

[torn whale]

You not once extended a decent shred of courtesy, only acting out of self interest. If you possessed they level of magnanimousity, you would've apologized not for your punishment handling but simply being rude. Out of respect for a fellow human being. But not once till today have you done as such

[obtuse loom]

Have you apologized for being rude to Dunk?

[torn whale]

I didn't have much of a platform established to, when your first port of call was to go after me rather than trying to properly resolve

[obtuse loom]

because you were significantly ruder to Dunk than I was to you

[obtuse loom]

Azul, genuinely, I say this with the most honest and genuine statement in my heart this very moment

The last week and a half were absolutely a mistake. It probably would have been better for the server and everybody involved to have just locked this channel and removed your tier listing privileges back then and moved on without it. We wouldn't have had any of this spat if I had actually decided to action in the way I'm "supposed" to

I regret trying to level with you and speak your language and try to tell you the issues you have with communication here

I've learned from my mistakes and will from here on out no longer provide you any verbal accosting, I'll just go straight to the moderation solution from now on when engaging with you

Slate wiped clean, no more history to worry about

This is the fresh start as a normal user whom I will provide no benefit or bias against

[torn whale]

Right, I'll be the bigger man and hold my tongue on what I would've responded with. What do you intend to accomplish from here, an actual resolution.

If so your actions have yet to match. I've been issued by Deeebs with an ultimatum lacking in detail. What was requested of me was not clear, when I inquired I was ignored for over an hour. And now what? An apology is a start, sure, but I'm still left with poor detail on how to proceed several more hours later.

Sorry not your actions, wrong phrasing when it's someone else's causality

[obtuse loom]

Your future tier lists should have some sort of flag or indicator that suggests this is "wholly the opinion of XYZ user"

Something along the bottom out of the way is ideal to not intrude on the list itself

[torn whale]

Like right after Deeeb's message I agreed to that, but he up and ignored me yet again

[obtuse loom]

Deeeb probably just didn't see the message

[torn whale]

I did ping shortly after too

[obtuse loom]

Ye but he's not online

And hasnt made a comment since he dropped one here

So yeah, basically - unless you're going to provide a more specific and articulable niche (which it seems like is against the thesis of your tier list), we just need some watermark of some kind to indicate what the "point" of the list is - and in this case, the "point" is that it's your take on the meta

[torn whale]

He certainly was when I did. The ping wasn't that far after the message too. I'm saying this out of recent experience when I say Deeebs has been awful at giving responses

[obtuse loom]

Which is fine, we just need it stated

[obtuse loom]

Deeebs is fairly slow at responding yes, I agree

[torn whale]

I don't mean that as much as I do claiming he'll get back to certain messages, a disclaimer from close to a month ago now, only to pretend it never happened.

I didn't open this tangent for anything regarding you ftr. It was this general lack of methodology for handling reports

[obtuse loom]

No, he'll probably miss the message with all honesty

This is a fair criticism

We should open some easier channel for directly talking to the mods for important action

I'll raise that with the mods and we can consider a ticket system or some dispute/aid channel

[torn whale]

Well I'm glad for that. If we had such a system, none of this would've happened at all I'm 100% certain

You know from experience that when there's an official procedure to file reports I will follow it

[obtuse loom]

I mean, I don't think that's necessarily true

I think that when you pinged mods, if you had filed a ticket, I or someone else would have probably given you a similar rebuff

Unless you mean something else?

[torn whale]

Put it this way, if a channel existed I wouldn't have continued engaging with the argument, as a ping would not be the only way to contact mods non-specifically (i.e. by person)

A report would be filed elsewhere, discussion about actions can be made strictly between user and mod in an isolated scenario

[obtuse loom]

There is also the argument about transparent moderation that moderation discussion with users and such should be public

But that's a whole conversation to be had

[torn whale]

I didn't even know that's a genuine consideration for where to open them. But I know several servers that opted for that route, making a public "reports" channel

[torn whale]

"As a general limitation with tier lists, placements may vary by subjectivity. In other words, the same procedure could be followed by someone else but end up with different results"

Thoughts?

[obtuse loom]

I mean you could put that on your image

I would have just gone with something simpler

[torn whale]

You want it on the image, rather than with announcements or on the sheet?

[obtuse loom]

Oh I get it

OK uh

How about we edit a touch

As with most tier lists, placements may vary. The same procedure could be followed by someone else but end up with varied results. This list is the opinion of @torn whale .

Something like that I guess?

Feel free to change it

I'm just massaging at this point

[torn whale]

That feels more appropriately structured yeah. As long as there's no "I" or "me" pronouns involved: I'm adverse to that since it doesn't follow the scientific method

[obtuse loom]

I agree

[torn whale]

I would omit the last sentence only when using in the spreadsheet, as it feels redundant given I'm on the title slide

[obtuse loom]

Being transparent in the main premise I think is important

[torn whale]

As with most tier lists placements may vary, subject to opinion. The same procedure could be followed by someone else but end up with varied results.
There we go, one for the spreadsheet and the former disclaimer in-server

[obtuse loom]

Sounds perfect for me

This channel's name should also change to be easier to find discussion for your list

"Azul's Tier List"?

[torn whale]

Azul's Helper Pokémon Tier List

[obtuse loom]

👍

When do you think you'll have a new version of the list?

You said you were working on one, right?

[torn whale]

At this point it's gotten so close to 1.2.0, might as well wait for the new dishes

[obtuse loom]

👍

When the new one drops, feel free to ping me directly and I'll get it up

[torn whale]

Will do, hopefully I can find a way that doesn't require desktop to update the sheet each time. I have a draft and public version, but you can't copy between them on mobile without breaking the layouts

The current link is no longer usable till I iron that out

[snow aurora]

based take

y’all r wild icl

[idle oracle]

has anyone else posted their tier list here?

[obtuse loom]

#mathcord-publishings message

[white cradle]

https://discord.com/channels/1129035839398228028/1140134862947360808

Hasn't been updated in awhile though

[torn cargo]

you realize that was a troll and this tierlist is actually alphabetical order? lol

[white cradle]

Seems like an objective way to rank things

[torn whale]

I'm still considering to stop sharing tier list updates, whether that's by announcements channels only, transitioning to elsewhere or ceasing all development. It depends on how the next several days following this ordeal play out.

Without giving names, there are certain parties who have yet to be held accountable for allowing this mess to happen. There's no point continuing to exert much time and effort, for a community I feel has fallen from grace.

[winged kayak]

Awwww, I don't know what happened, but I will tell you that I find your spreadsheet and info very useful :)

[snow aurora]

#mathcord-publishings message

🫶

[obtuse loom]

NEW LIST

UPDATED LIST

HOOGA CHAKA

[placid swallow]

Wait, what happened to your tier list and helper Pokemon ranks... I was on it this morning. Now the sheet is gone

I miss the explanations and best skills..

[torn whale]

All mention of the tier list and spreadsheet was purged from #resources-research-communities, I was given an ultimatum to make specific changes or they'll never advertise it again.

Given the history this resource has on the server and the several months without anyone facing this problem they're complaining about, it's a disrespectful slap in the face to not even attempt a compromise

In other words, the team failed to support their community. I reported concerns of behaviour repeatedly, only to be ignored for well over a month. No apology for dismissing me for so long, no admitting to the failure in their prior reports system.

[light gust]

Damn wth

I liked this list :(

[obtuse loom]

What other sort of compromise would you suggest?

[torn whale]

To make it clear, I'm not referring to you here Qril. I respect the fact you apologized and are trying to fix things.

To begin with, there was no compromise or even attempt at one. What Deeebs did is akin to pushing me off a cliff, breaking my legs and only offering a crutch if I become their slave. In principle, forcing the other party to do your bidding with blackmail.

[obtuse loom]

I'm going to ignore all that and ask the same question again, what compromise are you seeking?

[torn whale]

If you're ignoring that you're missing my point. There wasn't any compromise to begin with, you can't have an "other" option in absence of a position to start from

[obtuse loom]

Deeebs gave the suggested outcome

You can provide a compromise

And the mods will discuss it

I'm skipping past the dramatic bit about blackmail since, that isn't what blackmail is

"The government is withholding my driver's license, blackmailing me into doing a driving test"

"My pharmacy is withholding drugs, blackmailing me into talking to a doctor first"

[torn whale]

It didn't go like that at all. Their very first act and proclamation was to cut ties removing all mention for my tier list. "If you want that to be rectified, do our bidding". It's not a factor of me failing eligibility for a community resource, otherwise I wouldn't have been promoted for the last 6 months. So yes, this is very much akin to blackmail.

[violet saffron]

Though my specifications/outlines were admittedly shit, they were also just rough outlines i came up with on the spot. This is in no way blackmail. We're not forcing you to do anything. Resources/Inforgraphics are shared, mainly so when we see a general agreement with the community, or standardized/known information.

There's been far too much contention with how everything is ranked in your tier list to keep it up there without any extra Disclaimers added.

Your tier list is overall as you stated, yes, but are all pokemon then treated and rated along the same baseline? As i believe you've stated (and i've skimmed), that Pokemon based on niches/specialties, get weighed differently. Due to that, similar to wave, i believe you should then have smaller broken down tier lists ranking all pokemons based on those various specifications. THEN put together a compiled tier list taking all of that into account.

[obtuse loom]

Also, for the record, blackmail is very specifically about kompromat, it's not about having a privilege taken away. If we threatened to reveal damaging information on you, THAT is blackmail.

[torn whale]

This "too much contention" is from just two users, one being a mod. There has been a vastly greater number expressing their liking of the tier list. Making it out like the complaints are the majority is both false and giving bias to staff team takes over regular users.

A person is guilty of blackmail if, with a view to gain for himself or another or with intent to cause loss to another, he makes any unwarranted demand with menaces.
There is loss being held against me with the deletion and withdrawal of tier list announcements, for a demand stemming from the vocal minority. It's not like I refused to give detail on how the tier list worked, I dedicated an entire section for it.

I never expressed pokemon with niches get weighed differently. The conditions for each tier clearly explain more viable usage cases get placed higher, then lesser ones are lower. That isn't preferential treatment in the slightest.

[obtuse loom]

Even the US Federal Code doesn't consider this blackmail as we're not demanding any of "money, property, or services", nor is this "coercion or extortion"

Re: 18 USC § 873

[obtuse loom]

England

Also still doesn't apply

How do we gain

In this definition it requires us to receive a profit in some way

[torn whale]

"or with intent to cause loss to another"

[obtuse loom]

Also, the rest of the law exists too

unless the person making it does so in the belief—that he has reasonable grounds for making the demand

Also "meances" don't apply either

If someone or something menaces a person or thing, he, she, or it threatens seriously to harm it

Are we threatening to "seriously harm you"?

[torn whale]

Even before picking straws, the approach you took as a representative of the server and mod team alike, was unprofessional, inappropriate and simply unfair. A simple discussion could have easily ironed things out. Prioritizing cutting ties over fixing problems makes for an unsupportive community, if that action is going to be defended I do not wish to make effort in providing resources or support

[obtuse loom]

So that's a whiff on 3 different definitions; dictionary, US Law, English law. Feel free to try again, there may be some country out there

[torn whale]

Referring to Deeebs here ftr

[obtuse loom]

We didn't cut ties?

We reached out to fix a problem

Cutting ties would be not offering you the opportunity to go right back up on the wall with minor changes

[torn whale]

No, you as the mod team reached out to remove me from the announcements. That was first and foremost no matter how you spin it

If the priority was "giving an opportunity to make minor changes", a discussion would come before that or the only action at all to start with.

Again, the fact that you're contesting the failures in providing support, given the necessitated changes for contacting mods since yesterday, goes to show a lack of priorities and direction.

[obtuse loom]

Why?

Why would a discussion have to start before we remove the problematic material?

For the record, I'm also going to contest that I actually did reach out about you about this before it was removed

But I also want to contest your premise here anyways

[torn whale]

Your behaviour in reaching out was wholly appropriate. Coupling communications with arguments and insults naturally won't lead to anything productive.

As I said, I reached out to Deeebs well before you did with me, only to receive no response or development even now. Which is the unaddressed problem I've been discussing here

[violet saffron]

Yeah, i stated it was removed and may go back up under that disclaimer for the current time being. Unless you were able to break it down more like i stated recently to further improve the tier list.

Adding your ownership on it as your own take at least provides the stance that this is still your opinion/take, based on the research you're done. It allows there to be disagreement, but remaing standing as it just being your view of a tier list for the game. Rather than the "overall general tier list for the game/server". 'Cause there isn't a single "one to rule them all" imo.

[torn whale]

You're pretending like I deliberately didn't establish it's my tier list. Right on the sheet's first page I stated it's "by Azulyter", and had sufficient explanations for my protocol.

[brittle summit]

I like the tier list, I just think it could be improved to be an even better community resource

[torn whale]

I believe that's the first or second time you said that, versus the barrage of criticisms of stuff I already gave my word would be changed

[obtuse loom]

The first page of the sheet isn't what's being plastered in the channel for people to glance at

[torn whale]

You're not quite right there, or you're taking advantage of the removed announcement so people can't verify. Embed previews do use the first page of the sheet

It's also what people appear on when first viewing

[obtuse loom]

Except we weren't posting just your spreadsheet

We also posted the tier list

Also, your spreadsheets embed doesn't have the text in question visible iirc

Post the spreadsheet link here

[torn whale]

So I'm to blame for how the staff team formatted the announcement? I left it to Deeebs' discretion, for you to try spinning things onto me even now, when it's beside the point, isn't helping whatsoever

[obtuse loom]

Perfect, so you agree the way it should be presented is left to Deeebs' discretion?

Deeebs' discretion says there should be a forenote

[violet saffron]

And then yeah, how i displayed it initially wasn't the best and i can update it to add the extra info you have in your spreadsheet.

[torn whale]

No that's very far from what I'm saying. It's that the latest post I'm being blamed for the lack of detail in should be toward the staff

[obtuse loom]

Who's blaming?

[torn whale]

Look, I'll say this all once more and should we keep arguing who's right or whatnot I'm done with fighting this

This situation was allowed to progress to a dire level largely because of Deeebs ignoring reports of attitude in tier list complaints, for over a month.

The voices of a mod and one other user were given favourable treatment over the consensus of a greater proportion of regular users. Their qualm wasn't even with something that was absent, but wanting their means of clarification to be enforced.

The staff team showed a disappointing lack of care for server issues: using DMs as encouraged resulted in nothing, while pinging was antagonized despite being the only other means of contact.

Overall, the way many staff handed this case was unprofessional, wrong and did not have the community at best interest. If accountability continues to be brushed aside, I do not want to contribute to a misguided server

[obtuse loom]

for over a month

???

The incident in question with me and Dunk was less than 2 weeks ago

[torn whale]

And I had made reports on the topic of the tier list and poor attitude well before that

My guy you are really not helping with this. If you don't have the full picture arguing is fruitless

[ocean tartan]

💀

[inner nymph]

...ok i dont come here often and only read through the last few days. Yall dont deserve Azul. Seriously, if you are trying to say "both parties need to calm down and stop being incendiary" then as a 3rd party looking in let me tell you that that is bogus. What an endless barrage of sharply-worded, dismissive criticism Azul has had to endure. And that's their thanks for putting all this effort into their tier list. Seriously? This reminds me of the comments sections of cooking videos — full of people who think they know better than the one who did the research and are itching to show it. And let's say they actually do know better, because maybe a few do, what then? Who cares if you dont say it in a kind way? Try to see things from the other person's perspective, I'm begging you. I don't know the history of how it got to this point but maybe the plain perspective of someone seeing how it is right now will help somebody self-reflect. Wow.

[trim needle]

TRUEEEEE

[obtuse loom]

Here's where the most recent fights started, for the record

#1133866288771518566 message

There's prior history in the Mathcord I could fill in, but the long and short of it is that Azul and I got into a fight because we were hosting his tier list there, and removed him because he made comments that suggested he wasn't going to listen to people providing criticism as it was his list and nobody else's.

Then he moved back here with our full support, and a month ish later, gets into a massive fight with dunk because Dunk is suggesting Leafeon should be on the same tier as Umbreon because his ability is strictly better and is otherwise identical

Azul and Dunk go back and forth for an hour with Azul repeatedly misunderstanding what happened and being incredibly aggressive to Dunk for that hour before pinging mods to have him silenced

A lot of the "y'all need to chill" comments from the mods stem from a prior background of Azul being very disrespectful to other users in this very chat

I'm more that willing to sit here and criticize a bunch, as many others will, because when it comes to specifics, there are plenty of people who likely do know better than Azul. I have spent 6 months researching and publishing new discoveries on this game. I solved the Rexipe formula singlehandedly and am working with Sleep API to create a perfect, nearly entirely objective tier list based of the abilities of each mon

"Who cares if they don't say it in a kind way"

That's the rub - most people have said things in a kind way. Azul has been the primary instigator of rudeness repeatedly. Every time.

The rudeness you witness here is a remnant, a continuance, of the way Azul was aggressive towards other people unprompted.

[obtuse loom]

We try to approach in good faith regularly, and Azul has often made a grandstand showing of pretending it's a David vs Goliath situation and how humble he's been the entire time, incapable of reflecting on the fact his behavior was what spawned basically every conflict in his vicinity.

I do implore you to read the details of what happened on the day I linked - it's a long read, but you should get a decent idea of where a lot of the malus started

[torn whale]

Azul has been the primary instigator of rudeness repeatedly. Every time.
Yet another flat-out lie. This Mathcord situation was caused solely by you: well before I could've posted anything you approach with "do you even look at mons before you rate them?" You yourself acknowledged the behaviour was unacceptable, yet you still point fingers

Bottom line is, as a mod, you never should have gotten involved with me directly if you were going to worsen situations by instigating arguments. That is wholly unprofessional considering how many alternatives there were.

[obtuse loom]

I'm just not going to respond anymore

[torn whale]

If repeated behaviour was a concern, that could very easily be communicated to a fellow staff member to intervene impartially. There are mods here who also witnessed the entirety of the Mathcord incidents, while not being the root cause of it.

Again, that is a failure from the staff team as a whole. I made effort to prevent outbursts from occurring which went ignored, this was the result.

[violet saffron]

I've requested that one of the other Mods (when they have a moment) to come in and go through everything and provide their impartial view on everything that's passed.

[torn whale]

I'm not sure how to feel about that. Surely it's the server owner who establishes and has the last word how moderators interact? Considering a mod was a root cause of this situation, is it really appropriate for yet another to try resolve this?

Besides, I submitted reports exclusively to you. I don't get how another mod could be expected to cover for your lack of response

[obtuse loom]

These are mods of the Mathcord talking about the indicent in the Mathcord, not the incident here for which you are being analysed

[violet saffron]

Me not responding to your recent DMs is due to me not having the capacity to respond to them at this moment.

[torn whale]

I'm not referring to just those, rather everything over the last ~2 months you ignored

[violet saffron]

I've spoke with Qril recently, we had a 1-on-1, though my interpretation is that you're expecting me to exact some sort of punishment/consequence upon him.

[snow aurora]

leaking dms without asking permission is not cool dude

especially when you’re leaving out me saying that you both need to chill, and that you absolutely weren’t helping the situation

same goes with this, i figured it’s pretty basic internet etiquette to not do that

[torn whale]

For one you gave no implication of that, when issues dated back further than recently. Even to this moment they argue about what transpired while antagonizing me, making it look like nothing took place at all.

My issue is that such behaviour was permitted to begin with, even before it got to such a level. That, and action taken against me was far too extreme.

[torn whale]

I'm sorry, but I feel no alternative was at my disposal. Despite how many attempts to DM Deeebs to talk through the situation I made, he would ignore them at almost every interval. If he's only going to respond publicly, I can't exactly send massages anywhere else

[snow aurora]

you can ask him something publicly without trying to bring other people into this

[violet saffron]

I removed it from the resource channel, but i did not bar you from still posting your tier list here, spreading it around, and discussing it.

[torn whale]

For the reasoning and what you wanted changed, there was absolutely no need. It was your own post, editing was easily an option. So was simply discussing and asking me to edit the sheet

[snow aurora]

it’s not your responsibility to try and state me and panders’ opinion on the topic from just a little snippet when that’s all you’ve heard, we’ve both talked to qril plenty about this

[hybrid bear]

@torn whale wtf man. this is a public forum. don't post your DMs with other people without the okay from them. as a rando not participating in this discussion, that's none of my business and i don't want to know

[torn whale]

Man this was meant to be my last message on the matter, but people involved kept coming back to argue rather than resolve things. I apologized, and it's my mistake for following suit with them

[brittle summit]

You should probably go back and read from my first post in this channel. I initially made a suggestion as someone who enjoys the tier list. I think my contribution was clearly in good faith but I'll let you read it and be the judge.

[violet saffron]

Yeah, and like i started earlier, i can update it. Was removing it at the moment rash? Yes, definitely. I still stand by it due to where the situation stood at that moment.

I'm not again re-publishing it with extra information being stated there and adjusting the info in the post. As well providing more generalized info that you have in the initial pages of the spreadsheet.

[torn whale]

I just don't see any repercussions being issued to guilty parties beside myself. Even this attempt at an apology was rude, backhanded and possessing questionable sincerity. Given the proven false claims to say out of this matter unless necessary. I do not see a rant exclusively belittling me yet again and brushing over their own involvement as progress.

[snow aurora]

@brittle summit just backread, sincerely sorry you had to deal with that

[torn whale]

I removed the DM screenshots, formally done with these painstaking efforts to get any sort of favourable outcome here.

The server's gotten so disillusioned with minmaxing. Freedom to present opinions shouldn't be trampled upon in favour of that, nor should those with "authority" be permitted to berate views they disagree with.

I'll still look back fondly on the welcoming atmosphere present during early days, when suggestions and feedback were provided respectfully.

[snow aurora]

thanks for removing them 👍

[torn whale]

Again sorry for posting them. I would not have sent to begin with, if the staff had addressed reports in an appropriate manner

[snow aurora]

no need to try to tie in an excuse, it’s perfectly ok to admit you did something in poor judgement and just apologize for it straight up

sending private messages in a public forum being inconsiderate has nothing to do with the context of your situation