Azul's Helper Pokémon Tier List

[rancid umbra]

@odd berry proof

[rancid umbra]

Sudo is er- and has been out of energy for several hours.

[odd berry]

Tango has higher energy because I swapped it in when the others were about 95%

early in the day

[worn nacelle]

Lmfao loving the dance theme 😂

[odd berry]

Rhumba is -energy

[odd berry]

I WANTED TO NAME BULBASAUR BOMBA OR BONGO BUT BOTH NAMES WERE BLOCKED BY CENSORSHIP

[worn nacelle]

Wait really?? I have no idea why either of those could be considered bad

[odd berry]

Bongo contains bong

But Bomba I have literally no idea

And no it's not because of 'bomb'

you can name a Pokémon Bomb

[loud radish]

Bomba might mean butt

[obtuse loom]

#1137606947307261992

[visual cosmos]

[obtuse loom]

Gonna be a whole thing

[heady sigil]

What’s so good about ditto?

[torn whale]

Insanely good ingredient drops

[naive kiln]

Still yet to find a ditto

[heavy orbit]

What about relaxed on a skill energy mon.. +energy -exp. On someone who has charge energy for self skill.

Or is exp. Valued that high

[prime pawn]

I know this is noob

But where can i see the tier list

[fickle perch]

check the pinned messages in this thread 🙂

[prime pawn]

I have to scroll to find it or its somewhere?

[neat elk]

Eww no dark mode

Jk

[fickle perch]

oh don't worry I get that comment all the time

[neat elk]

It actually saves a lot of battery due to less light

Plus its better at nighttime

[heavy orbit]

You should be sleeping at night time... Or Snorlax gonna be mad

[vernal orbit]

I think he's aware of pros and cons of both modes

[timid agate]

I think it might be a good idea to make another tier list dedicated specifically to what new players should aim for
I'm seeing a lot of people catch Riolus, Meowths, and Magnemites and stuff because it's rated highly here even though they're honestly just bad for a new player
They just see a tier list and without being told why a mon is high, they just assume it's the thing to go for

[warm smelt]

That could be a good idea

Though the current list does consider early game stuff irrc

[silver pecan]

exactly what ive been doing @timid agate 😛

but isnt everyone still " new" like surely no one has fully evolved teams yet

i guess i forgot to fill up friends list day 1 so behind on cnady but i feel like im quite far unlocked all maps and level 16

but no where near having evolved or higher then level 10 pokemons

[timid agate]

True
But people that don't know any better catch mons that don't help them
Advanced newness

[torn whale]

Tbf I do think those are all good mons to get early on. Partially due to unique-ness, but all those mons are ones that need a fair bit investment to get going

[timid agate]

I don't think so at all
The dream shard mons don't help your snorlax early on and you likely don't have enough ingredients to even make use of Magnemite

They're definitely mons you use later

[torn whale]

They help over time is the thing, the sooner you start getting the dream shard procs the better its utility

As for Magnemite it's certainly possible to pull it off early game with ingredient magnet and specialists. Due to the difficulty of its early game I did lower it to A in the current draft

[silver pecan]

i always find i have 0 ingredients 😦

[torn whale]

If you keep using the auto function that's bound to happen. It's better to select recipes and additional ingredients manually to remedy this

[silver pecan]

Yeah kept doing auto to find all the recipes like I did back in Pokemon quest forget you can just use serebii

Starting to stockpile them up now

[final nimbus]

oh i thought if u add the additional ingredients manually it would alter the recipe

[torn whale]

Not unless you take away from the base ingredients

[final nimbus]

that's very helpful to know

i incorrectly assumed since doing the autofill thing explicitly tells u it wont alter the recipe

that manually filling would alter

[wraith inlet]

Turn on preview when adding ingredients, it will show you when the dish changes

[obtuse loom]

I personally see + Energy as a waste entirely

As I get my 100 a night

[final mason]

Maybe if you don't get enough sleep every night but if you can't and you're trying to minmax a sleep tracker, you should be doing fake naps anyway

[heavy orbit]

but you can get more than 100 energy if a skill procs. meaning it will take longer to reach 0 and we figured out that the closer you get to 0 the "worst" your helper gets

[obtuse loom]

What

That has nothing to do with + Energy

Which only applies to sleeping

Which caps out at 100

[heavy orbit]

if you have plus 12 energy skill. and have the energy nature you would get 14

[obtuse loom]

So if you sleep 100, the nature is wasted

[obtuse loom]

Is that true?

Or speculation?

[heavy orbit]

yes

[obtuse loom]

Do you have a clip I can add to my notes?

[heavy orbit]

the multiplier also affects skill proccs

[obtuse loom]

Uh what

[heavy orbit]

uhh if i get my energy mon to proc

[obtuse loom]

Oh ye

I get what you mean yeah

[heavy orbit]

but also one person yesterday posted too

[obtuse loom]

I'd appreciate if you could show me a clip of that

[heavy orbit]

energy down nature applied and he got 12 instead of 14 on his wobbafet

[obtuse loom]

I'd like to see the plus

[heavy orbit]

idk how to reccord clips but i have a dodou with energy up nature when it procs i can show you

i do agree the sleeping energy is wasted if you get full sleep

but since you get more on skill procs at least pokemon that boost their own energy reliably should benefit

[light gust]

Hey, since now we know that Snorlax's favorite berries don't change in the other three islands, shouldn't that affect the tier rating? As in, mons from types that gives those berries in the other islands might be worth more than those who can only give Snorlax's favorite berries on greengrass on a chance?

[odd berry]

Well we know totodile is pretty busted now

[heavy orbit]

the best solution is probably to have 2 totodiles in the list

one for "regular" islands and 1 for cyan

maybe have a little symbol for the "fixed" islands on the 2nd one

[glass isle]

So a full night of sleep still gives your pokemon 100 happiness? Not 80 like what other people has been saying?

[obtuse loom]

I dont know who tf is saying 80

80 is if you have Energy Down nature

If you sleep less than a full night's sleep then you'll get less than 100 too

[glass isle]

Ok

[lofty crow]

3 tier lists. On for each island, probably best

[torn whale]

There's already resources in #infographics for that. Just see which mons produce the matching berry type for an island and run them

[wraith inlet]

Team of energy recovery + mons with a Wigglytuff support sounds good

[odd berry]

why?

i think energy recovery only affects sleep

[torn whale]

Not necessarily, there's reasearch that suggests energy affects helping speed

[wraith inlet]

Reports say that's not correct

And with the manual nap meta they make good pokemon for fake nap days

For either the 82 point max sleep or the fake nap

[odd berry]

the ENERGY RECOVERY NATURE only affects RECOVERING ENERGY FROM SLEEP, not from main skill abilities, I think

[torn whale]

That's not what I'm referring to

[odd berry]

were you replying to a different message

[rancid umbra]

@odd berry this says otherwise if confirmed to be true.

[odd berry]

also I heard that energy going above 100% was a bug

and that sometimes it gets reset back to 100

[torn whale]

This didn't happen for me. Sadly didn't record it, but my +energy Doduo still got 12

*Bellsprout

[torn whale]

I was replying to this. Energy skills can affect helping speed the higher it's at. The base helping speed shown on summary is the value at 0 energy according to that

[neat elk]

It does after a few minutes

[odd berry]

i guess it's not really something to strive for

[odd berry]

well I wasnt talking about energy, I was talking about the energy recovery nature

[torn whale]

Well yeah, it in turn has an affect on helping speed

[odd berry]

??? why do I have the "I'm new here" icon again

[warm smelt]

I'm not sure if you guys have seen it but there is also a #1135138417043312790 tier list

[odd berry]

i'm literally basic 5

[warm smelt]

I know the Pikachu incense is weekly, so this might help a lot with timing

[fickle perch]

that goes away after a certain amount of days

[torn whale]

Looks fine on my end 🤔

[warm smelt]

Raichu is quite high in the tier list currently too

[wraith inlet]

Not according to a few reports, so inconclusive

I'm waiting for my jigglypuffs to proc its skill to see myself

[torn whale]

From my experience it does tbh

So energy recovery down means a soft cap on helping speed even with perfect sleep. While energy up mostly doesn't matter

[heavy orbit]

actually i just thought of something that could be meta.. if you get a full team of +energy.. you could do manual nap during the day to use up 20 points and get idk the math but a little more than 20 energy back.. and than your normal sleep which only gives 80 but thanks to the nature gets u back to 100

that way you could have a little more than 20+ energy a day.. but the entire team would need to be energy+

[wraith inlet]

An energy up nature makes the 18 points from a manual nap into 22 energy

Or 21 if it rounds down from 21.6 because of reasons

[heavy orbit]

or if using 2 teams ever becomes meta the B team would definetly want energy up

or one of the teams

[wraith inlet]

Yep. Not worth sleeping on energy recovery up.

In b4 energy recovery up team with wigglytuff support is proven to be mathematically superior

[heavy orbit]

like you could have 1 team that is full energy up and use it until they get to 70ish percent.. manual nap and than go your main team to which should end up at 20 and recovers to full again with the 80 points left

you wouldn't even loose exp on your main team that way

[wraith inlet]

Seems like a decent strategy

[torn whale]

Perfect energy managemenet would be Wiggly w/ energy recovery bonus sub skill, double main skill triggers and nature

[loud radish]

so like this kinda? MUAHAHAHHA

[torn whale]

Close enough, you're one skill trigger short

[heavy orbit]

i actually have an eevee that i'll make into sylv that checks all the boxes.. also +skill triger nature

just getting those 150 hours of sleep is a pain

i'm at 80 now

[loud radish]

https://tenor.com/view/extra-sleep-extra-sleep-snooze-alarm-gif-12861156

[heavy orbit]

actually if u can't level up today.. it probably is better to save all berries etc for tommorrow morning or am i wrong?

[loud radish]

won't they automatically give to snorlax overnight?

I'm definitely saving ingredients from lunch and dinner.

still gonna give berries for the achievement, etc

[heavy orbit]

the ones that overflow i guess get fed.. but you would have the "max" you could have in the morning

[minor echo]

Don't you just cap out overnight anyways

[loud radish]

I think Waido is right, if you sync slept data and do the research, all your team members have full berries and snorlax will eat like 30 first thing in the morning

[silver pecan]

Whats the best area to go to based off the tier list?

[final mason]

Depends on what you have

On Cyan Beach for example, Snorlax will always favorite oran, pecha, pamtre (water, fairy, flying) so if you lack mons with those berries it's gonna be a struggle

The first area will always be three random berries

[silver pecan]

is there a website or graph to show all the other areas?

[loud radish]

yes it's pinned somewhere

or on Serebii

[loud radish]

https://www.serebii.net/pokemonsleep/researchareas.shtml

[faint echo]

What's the best nature for swablu?

[torn whale]

Adamant probably

Not really the right place to ask tho

[vernal orbit]

#1137606947307261992

[warm smelt]

I have a good Gastly apparently, but some say it's not worth trying to get Gengar since it requires a link cable

but it's third on the tier list?

[torn whale]

Gengar's really good. Some of the best base stats in the game and a solid set of ingredient drops

Only ghost type too so berry finding is massive

Deffo worth evolving imo

[grizzled pasture]

Gengar is one of my best pokemon right now.

[lunar current]

„- - Energy Recover seems bad, but will running a Jigglypuff‘s Energy Restore make up for it late game? Did someone already do the math?

Thanks 😅

[cursive ibex]

This week’s snorlax wants berries from moms that I have crap versions of. Is it better to just take a week to power up my S mons despite them not being preferred berry rather than powering up bad natures, etc.

Bad versions of mons*, not moms.. or.. 🥲

For example, they are from Meowth, Diglett, Raticate, and Eevees (and others I don’t have yet).

Or just little bit of column a and b? An ‘okay’ eevee and meowth and the rest S tiers.

[loud radish]

could do an ingredient team

[cursive ibex]

Should the “help me pick” selection be trusted when it states your best teammates? For example, it says my Lvl 10 Toxicroak is my best ingredient teammate, but I know that’s low tier.

Or is that as useful as auto rec teams in pogo 😂

[heavy orbit]

how did you get gengar already? i'm not even close to level 19

[grizzled pasture]

I used candies

And a wild haunter I got

[heavy orbit]

ohh

gastly needs to be level 19 to evolve to haunter

it's my biggest issue xD

[grizzled pasture]

Yeah, I think I got lucky, since mine had stats that buff it's ability, but also doesn't hurt it's berry gathering.

I think it's main skill had been over 1000 for me 5 times now.

[cursive ibex]

👍🏻

[heavy orbit]

woww the pot upgrades cost a lot of shards after 21

[scenic fulcrum]

At wich ranks we are able to increase the pot?

Are the shards related main skills and subskills worth to have in the team?

Wondering if I should invest on a larvitar that haves the bonus shards at lvl 10

[grizzled pasture]

Serebii has them on this page
https://www.serebii.net/pokemonsleep/dishes.shtml

[heavy orbit]

it goes up to 81.. rip the weeks you have good cap tickets and sundays

[torn whale]

I don't bother with it. Sometimes you need to manually make teams, like to meet evolution requirements or to get a specific ingredient from a helper

[neat elk]

dont

I had this Gulpin at level 10 on first week when tha game was launched

worst mistake ever

I stopped leveling it up after last week

[magic cliff]

How much exp does sleeping give to pokemon?

[solar cedar]

your sleep score is how much exp they get, and then the nature can give them more or less

[magic cliff]

I thought exp nature is research exp not pokemon exp

[wraith inlet]

They fixed that

[magic cliff]

I see

[raw escarp]

Are there pokemon specific tierlists yet? With preffered nature and subskills

[visual cosmos]

uhh there's a nature tier list that's being worked on

and it offers conditions for what nature fits what type

So for non-ingredient pokemon, Adamant is a great nature

as an example

idk about preferred subskills, people definitely have ones they prefer to see but idk if an infographic has been made for it

oh it's been 20 mins since you asked the question, i should probably @raw escarp in case you aren't actively watching this chat lol

[raw escarp]

oh yes hi hi, thanks a ton! i do follow that thread, just thought there might be one being worked on that i missed

[obtuse loom]

A specific mon tier list is something we can probably make

But it would be a lot of effort and would depend on many factors

[magic cliff]

For hasty, y is the condition if not nrg skill? Wouldnt nrg skill be better or does the - effect the nrg skill recovery as well?

[odd berry]

having one single Energy Recovery Bonus on my team has completely eliminated the downside of -energy natures for me

[lunar current]

Thanks for confirming

[obtuse loom]

Hasty is there twice

[magic cliff]

Ahhh

[inner cedar]

Good to know, cuz I got Swablu, Riolo, and a shiny Bonsliy

[snow sapphire]

Stupid question, does the tier list have every fully evolved pokemon on it?

If so, I think I counted 50 full evolved pokemon, and 42 unique families (Eevee)

[final mason]

It has everything currently in the game yea

[worn nacelle]

I'm doing this, two weeks in a row of no favored berries, I'd rather get exp for later instead of leveling up sub-par pokemon

[median sage]

is that a subskill or

[median sage]

i would love to do this but im so low on ingrs that i need rats to farm some apples for salad week 😭

[worn nacelle]

Yeah ive got salad week for the first time and it's rough with my setup. Just making tomato and apple salads as my team doesn't come together until much later for salads unfortunately

I have steel favored berry, the game is tempting me to bring magnemite back in even though I definitely don't have the ingredients to support it haha

[hazy turtle]

lol ive had salad weeks twice now

with unfavorable berries zzz

last week yache figy bluk, this week bluk rawst wiki

[median sage]

whats your roster looking like currently?

i might have to resort to running pika / 2 rats / bellsprout / growlithe if i keep running out of apples

[worn nacelle]

Salad week blows, I don't envy you, give me curry week back please!

[worn nacelle]

Pika/raticate/gastly/bellsprout/larv

Might just send my pika to the shadow realm and run magnemite to level it for late game

[median sage]

Salad week as well, i’d rather do dessert or curry week

[worn nacelle]

I just don't want to miss ultra 4 for the free incense

[median sage]

what incense did u get

mine’s rat :/ which is fine for an apple grinder ig, hopefully a better nature this time

[hazy turtle]

it wouldnt be that bad if i wasnt sitting on 50x honey and had a charmander

but yea it sucks, esp with these berries lmao

[median sage]

are u planning to expand invent

[hazy turtle]

i alrdy did

[median sage]

actually im curious do you guys max out your pots or

[hazy turtle]

im sitting on 111/120 ingred rn

[median sage]

oof

[hazy turtle]

imo 24 is the best pot upgrade

[median sage]

Just do the basic 7 ingr dishes

[hazy turtle]

18 is good but ill wait til i can unlock the 24 ingred pot upgrade and double upgrade from there

no i have to make 18 ingred dishes anyway

cus i have so many ingredients

[median sage]

ah damn

cause im currently debating whether to stick with a berry team or switch over to ingr since my berries are not great and i need apples/tomatoes

[worn nacelle]

I got rat the first 3 times (didn't get it the first week) but it's been useful since I've been raising one. This week is jiggly tho

[hazy turtle]

if i get spheal on this next sleep this week is saved

[median sage]

i was so close to a pika last time at ultra 1 im so sad

i gotta hit ultra 4 for the rat incense now urgh

[worn nacelle]

I'm going to start upgrading ingred pocket, it's something that has to happen eventually and then I can actually start hoarding

[median sage]

is this your ingr based team

[worn nacelle]

Yeah, things will change but I think the core of ttar/vbell/gengar is quite strong and will be aiming for better versions of those pokemon

After that I'm still unsure if magnemite is worth a spot late game but am open to 2 more pokemon at this point

My rat has helping bonus at 50 but idk how long it will take to get there

[hazy turtle]

magnemite scales pretty well since the amount of ingredients u get goes up by absurd amount when u hit level 30 etc

[worn nacelle]

Yeah I thought so too but the base ingredients from a fully upgraded pot is 81 or something, can I really fill that every meal?

If so it feels like inv up L is necessaey

[hazy turtle]

can be fulfilled imo. u have ingred inventory + evolved pokemon have nearly 18(?) space if not more

[worn nacelle]

I guess so, I'll keep leveling my magnemite regardless since it's one of the few pomemon I have with a positive nature

But I'm honestly worried it won't even be needed, hope I'm wrong tho!

[loud radish]

Magnemite is a good investment

skill is quite good

[hazy turtle]

not sure but i think more ingreds = higher chance of a crit dish

could be a sunday thing tho

[loud radish]

weeken ddoes have higher crit dish chance, and the max up too

[willow gorge]

I’m using 2 mons with the preferred berries (compared to last week’s 1) and somehow getting much less snorlax strength compared to last week, not sure what I’m doing wrong (same location as well)

[shut perch]

This is where my Tier List is at right now. It's ~90% based on a mathematical model for <level 30 berry, ingredient, and skill. Pokemon are adjusted up a tier if a berry bonus would be significant. A "Cyan Beach" version wouldn't look all that different though. Then I have merit adjustments for a few mons based on the <30 ingredient meta and the potential future benefits of e4e and cooking power.

Once we have more precise formulas, I don't expect this to change too much. >level 30 could change things a bit though, depending on how important specific ingredient combos are.

[neat elk]

dug should be higher as its one of the only mons to get leek at level 30 (so far)

[shut perch]

This tier list is based on <30. Do we know how ingredient acquisition works at level 30 yet? Would having a chance at leeks at level 30 be better than having better scoring Pokemon in general?

[neat elk]

I'll tell you when I get there. I have a level 17 gastly with an extra 28% extra xp boost after sleeping with a neutral nature

can't wait for some shrooms

[lunar current]

Care to share the model?

[shut perch]

It's just skills, berries, and ingredients. Berries and Ing. are modified w/ energy and energy decay and how they compete with each other. Ing. is also modified a little bit for "extra tasty."

[final mason]

do you have a link to the tier list maker?

[lunar current]

So berries are worth more than good ingredient mons? A 1-3-5 mon will have less output than a 2-5-8 with berry finding for example? How did you account for these variances?

[digital mortar]

If we take out the evolutions does this then function as an early game tier list?

[lunar current]

Right, I didn’t even think about evolutions

[digital mortar]

I'm just trying to make sure I'm not using bad logic to get to wrong use cases in my head

[lunar current]

I’m actually just curious how he accounted for all the variance.

[digital mortar]

It seems like chiko, cynda, and gastly are quite strong early because they hit all 3 buckets. The skill is nice, strong ingredients and berries

Are they sorted within tiers?

[stone monolith]

Gastly probably in that list rated slightly lower because it's not a berry finder... but does have strong ingredients and is technically the only Ghost pokemon available... but he rates their evolutions differently - higher evos get rated higher

[shut perch]

I'm here like, "<30 tier list." No bonuses are given to evolution bumping skills up, since I can't know if someone wild caught or evolved. For most Pokemon, the difference would be minor though.

[stone monolith]

I think it's an excellent list. since most people will be in this < Level 30 game play for weeks if not months.

[shut perch]

Berry Pokemon aren't exactly favored by this list, aside from Ingredients getting a higher output later in the game. Gengar and Ampharos aren't berry finders for example.

[digital mortar]

Yeah I love it

Really good for evaluating where I'm at instead of running a bunch of suboptimal teams now that'll become good late game, I can balance my teams between short term and long term thinking w both tierlists

Ty @shut perch !!

I'm assuming cynda is higher than chiko because of berry rate and a more useful ingredient even if it's less powerful?

[stone monolith]

They're same tier... just placed in the bucket on a 2nd line

[digital mortar]

Oh so not sorted within tier then? That makes sense

[shut perch]

They're loosely sorted in the tier. It just comes down to what they scored.

[torn whale]

I'm surprised Bonsly managed to scrape a C. It has THE WORST stats in the game

[stone monolith]

Early game easy to catch and their skill is decent for just starting out.

[torn whale]

Availability doesn't seem to be part of the criteria though. Even then its early game performance is abysmal, almost 2 hours helping speed 💀

Most of the bottom tier mons outperform it imo

[stone monolith]

Probably it's Tomato ingredient then?

[torn whale]

Slowpoke has Cacao, much more valuable ingredient, and is F

[torn whale]

Here it is: https://tiermaker.com/create/pokmon-sleep-all-helpers-16021791

[odd berry]

Why is Slaking above Vigoroth if its base frequency DECREASES upon evolving?

[torn whale]

I'm more surprised that Raticate's below both

No contest against Slaking, while Rat is straight-up a better stage 1 than Vigoroth stat-wise

[stone monolith]

"It's ~90% based on a mathematical model for <level 30 berry, ingredient, and skill. Pokemon are adjusted up a tier if a berry bonus would be significant."
Looks like skills are considered.

[shut perch]

good ol' human hand error if true. I initially did the list with pre-evos, then added final stages, and then figured I may as well put them all in

[torn whale]

Don't get how Feraligatr line ended up below Meganium either. Practically identical stats and Oran has higher value than Durin

Definitely shouldn't be separated by a whole tier as far as their base forms go

[digital mortar]

Sausage < cacao?

Feraligatr is sausage right

[torn whale]

If we're talking early game use for sure

[digital mortar]

Or is it ginger

[stone monolith]

Durin Berry is higher than Oran by 2 strength

[torn whale]

Cacao is mostly mid game recipes, while Sausage might as well be exclusively low cost ones

[stone monolith]

Also i'd have to see if he's ranking "in Tier" all the same or by left to right is lower within that same tier

[digital mortar]

Formula might be considering ingredient value individually and not "ability to contribute to recipe"

[digital mortar]

#1133866288771518566 message

[torn whale]

Again, a 2 strength difference shouldn't make one a whole tier below the other. Especially not the stronger of the two

[digital mortar]

Answered already

[stone monolith]

Ahh i had missed that - thanks

[digital mortar]

Ofc 💖

[digital mortar]

Think it's gotta be a pure cacao sausage diff

[stone monolith]

Cacao does make a big difference in cooks even if it's just tossed in as a bonus ingredient in early game.

not optimal use, of course, but it matters

[lunar current]

After that math model was not presented, I ignored the rest.

We are interested in transparency for the game. This is not a graded math assignment xD

[digital mortar]

If you're considering your like 5th Mon and already have your meal covered by the other 4 I could easily see preferring the chiko

[stone monolith]

I ran chikorita as a 4th berry getter on a Grepa week with 3x Pikachus... the 2x Durins and Cacao were nice. I couldn't make the big Salad recipe on the weekends anyway since i lacked a sausage gatherer.

[digital mortar]

Swablu and spheal are interesting cases of mons that are much worse early than late huh. Guessing you wanna roll pretty high on their level 10 skills to run em long enough to evolve them

[final mason]

thanks

[shut perch]

^this. I only gave merit bumps for ingredients that contribute to ingredient Pokemon.

[vivid hare]

How do I level up my pokemon fast?

[stone monolith]

You kind of don't / can't...

It's "up to" 100x EXP per day earned (not factoring skills or natures)... and 25 EXP per candy...

[shut perch]

I'll share my results and talk about the model, but I'm not going to tell all. That results in websites publishing their own calculators and the like. I've had enough years of GOHub and other websites ripping off me and my friends. I like to make them work harder to produce worse results.

[minor echo]

I think it's kinda funny some basic mons are higher tier than some evolved mons

Swalot F tier 😂

[lunar current]

Ripping you off? Of what? Pride? Ego? Do you paywall your stuff? What are you doing this for?

Over the years across many games, I have always shared my stuff and it inspires further iterations. I seriously don’t understand…

[torn whale]

It sucks putting days if not weeks into reasearching and creating a resource, only for others to yoink it and claim it's theirs

Sadly not everyone has the best of intentions when it comes to sharing information

[lunar current]

Put ego aside! Still, time and effort is being put in to decrypt the information and then we share it for it to spread. Why would you care if some doofus claims it?

[torn whale]

I feel like I already gave a perfectly valid answer to that

[lunar current]

So how are you gonna verify his/her information? Do we work with intransparent data now cause someone could get ripped off?

[torn whale]

It's hardly "intransparent", we have all the data after all. If you want to go validating there's all the resources to do so

As you say, it takes time and effort to put together formulae and calculations for said data. If you shared all of that, people can and will take advantage. It's the fundamental reason why we have proprietary vs. open source

[lunar current]

I’m familiar with that concept. At the end, I do all of this for fun. If it stops being fun, I’m gonna stop. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[worn nacelle]

The one thing is slaking absolutely shouldn't be A tier by the data and should be below rat

[shut perch]

I don't decrypt anything. The model is accurate but it isn't precise. The exact maths for everything wouldn't change it much, at least, I'm confident in what I've observed is probably close enough.

Yeah, Slaking and Vig got their names flipped at some point😅

[worn nacelle]

Is ingredient magnet the sole reason that vig would be a tier above rat? Because otherwise rat has objectively better stats

[torn whale]

Even main skill you'd argue energy is better for the specialty

Given the whole "energy decay" affecting helping speed

[worn nacelle]

Yeah that's what I was thinking too

Poor rat getting absolutely bodied by pretty privilege 😭

[shut perch]

Ingmag has a higher score yeah for the skill modifier. I wouldn't sweat in-tier differences that much though.

[worn nacelle]

This is between tiers, slaking (vigoroth) is in A and raticate is in B

[shut perch]

Sorry, haven't caught up to the name flip yet😅 . For the numerical ratings, Raticate is pretty close but behind "slaking" and division between Tiers is between them. It looks even wider because I merit bumped them both a tier d/t berry bonus. So rather than being low B and high C, they're low A and low B in appearance.

Rat is also the only B tier mon that has an S Tier performance with the berry bonus, so technically low A tier since having the "bonus into S" is how B tier promotes to A.

Zero doubt in my mind I thought about it and said "fuck Raticate lol" when weighing what to do about that.

[heavy orbit]

i made my own tier list and calculated on max level with also assuming you use 100% of the dropped ingredients.. mine looks like this i would kinda be interested if you also could make one based on max level, if it's not to much work for you (I assumed you get the same ingredient when you level up because it is rng)

well not max 100 but i used 60

[shut perch]

At a glance, how we account for skills is pretty different😅

[heavy orbit]

i did not account for skills sry

i accounted just berry and ingredients

and how they scale when you level up

because i wanted to know which pokemon are "worth" investing time into

[shut perch]

I find value in the list as "what families are worth throwing biscuits at" because the "worth it" for time investment comes down to what sub skills and nature they roll.

[heavy orbit]

but some of the top mons seem to be the same.. specifically gengar. typhlosion meganium and raichu

they where way way way stronger than others in my findings

[shut perch]

Yeah, a lot of skills are pretty "balanced" from what I've roped together. So cutting skills out would mostly punish skill focused Pokemon.

[potent knoll]

I'm genuinely impressed by the thought and effort that goes into these lists, but I'm getting the feeling we're trying to predict too far into late game. No one's hitting level 60 this year, and by the time we do, it's extremely unlikely we're going to be playing the same game--pokemon/dishes are likely to be changed or added, and who knows what other design changes the game will undergo.

I'm starting to see more value in midgame tier lists focused on targeting the best pokemon for the next 3 months or so, like @blissful mortar 's island tier list he shared recently: #1138325449034973287 message

[heavy orbit]

i mean yeah obviously you want a good one first to invest into.. but i wanted to "confirm" that lets say sudowoodo is indeed not a good choice ever

[odd berry]

Where's the tier list maker, I wanna try my hand

[light gust]

Yeah on serebii the level listings don't even go beyond 50, there is no way we are getting to 100 soon

[shut perch]

https://tiermaker.com/create/pokmon-sleep-all-helpers-16021791

[heavy orbit]

and on the otherhand some undervalued pokemon like absol are suprisingly good.. at least from my research

and i find it interesting that you also have for example absol very high.. is in other tier lists very low

[light gust]

is this tier list in general/for the first island? and would you be able to do one but adjusting the model for cyan beach and taupe hollow's favorite berries too?

[heavy orbit]

@shut perchthere is only 1 thing i'm curiouse. how is slaking better than vigoroth. can u explain what i'm not seeing

[shut perch]

It was mentioned before, but at some point I flipped their names. Probably because I added prevolutions later on in the process and figured it was my mistake that Vigi looked better than the King, rather than checking that evolution was actually a rate loss lol

[heavy orbit]

i guess it is a glass half full half empty question. if you focus soly on early bloomers than you would probably need to swap later on and leveling takes time. but i understand also if you only focus on late game early on you might struggle.. so it is probably ideal to find the pokemon that are good both early and late.. and some pokemon like lets say raichu definitely match that

[heavy orbit]

ok i see.. cuz when i calculated it was a straight downgrade.. no matter how you turn it.. gotcha.. thanks

[shut perch]

It mostly affects the double berry mons, bumping them up a tier. Some single berry mons could flex up if they're close enough.

[light gust]

Ah I see

[heavy orbit]

i also found with levels berry mons scale insane

at lower levels berry and ingredients where much closer together

like when you calculate at level 1 lavitar is very high up

[shut perch]

Yeah, that's why my list is <30. Because once we cross that, Ingredients get a bump. But right now it isn't clear exactly how their bump is treated.

[light gust]

Are the mons in your list also ranked within a tier? (like, is growlithe strictly better than gulpin in F tier) and if they aren't would it make sense for your list to have in-between tiers? Since there are so many mons condensed in the middle tiers

[heavy orbit]

yeah for sure it's somewhat of a prediction how pokemon will scale later. but i also don't think "much" will change if it progresses similarly as it does from 1-30

but ofc i could be wrong

but i'm pretty certain that none of the SSS tiers would move even close to a

or b

[shut perch]

It's pretty loose within tiers. The math model is "probably accurate enough" not precise. I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

[worn nacelle]

I've been looking at absol and it seems way underrated rn. The only ING spec cocoa and the apples in second tier is super underrated as there isn't many other reliable sources of apples

Pinsir seems to be underrated too in general, that speed of help on an ingredient mon is matched only by gengar

[heavy orbit]

it has cocoa (if i remember right a good berry) and also insane speed

[vernal orbit]

I know that will create some fights and I there is some hot takes

[heavy orbit]

also you don't need to evolve so it's ready to go from the start

[vernal orbit]

but I'll also share my tier list

[heavy orbit]

i would 100% catch one if i can

[heavy orbit]

i think it's good if people share there lists.. it gives reason to debate

[vernal orbit]

please don't fight

[worn nacelle]

Same, I was bummed I had heracross show up Monday morning instead of pinsir/absol 😔 not that I caught it anyways

[heavy orbit]

and thats kinda the point of tierlist so people can argue what is best

[worn nacelle]

Does quilava have enough yellow to even be in yellow tier?

[heavy orbit]

and as we can see what is best also depends on the stage of the game your in

[potent knoll]

it's beautiful

[vernal orbit]

ty ty

[heavy orbit]

if you want a hot take tierlist.. you should do a tierlist of which is the best shiny

🔥

[vernal orbit]

I would need all shinys images

if you give it to me I'll do it for sure

[heavy orbit]

i would actually like that tierlist

[vernal orbit]

[heavy orbit]

lets hope someone makes the sprites for the tierlist maker

honestly i also think pokemon on the fixed berry islands somehow need to get an extra bump on everyones tierlist.. but i dunno how to appropriately do it without giving to much credit

[wraith inlet]

hot take cubone belongs in brown tier. his skull may be white but the pokemon itself is CLEARLY brown you heathen

[vernal orbit]

I knew I should have not done it

[heavy orbit]

menki is also brown

[wraith inlet]

you godless MONGREL

[heavy orbit]

and meowth ain't white

[wraith inlet]

I will make it my mission to destroy you for miscategorizing the sad boney boy

and even though it destroys my own logic on cubone, togepi belongs in white tier

[heavy orbit]

togepi didn't even make the list

nvm it's up in yellow wtf

[wraith inlet]

I know right. They'll let just anyone make a tier list these days

[torn whale]

Same at first lol

[vernal orbit]

V2

[heavy orbit]

the real question still isn't answered.. team honey or team sausage

🔥

[potent knoll]

no one ever got buried in sand and covered with sausage to feed the ants

[heavy orbit]

i also hope when i can finally evolve my eevee on friday since thats when i have my 150 hours of sleep with it.. we kinda got to a conclusion about the eeveelutions

[gusty moat]

Why not put Raichu with yellows. I'd say the difference between Persian and Pikachu is bigger than the difference between Pikachu and Raichu yet they're both in yellow.

[heavy orbit]

personally after making my own and seeing ryans tierlist umbreon is out for me.. so it's just between sylveon and espeon.. just dunno if i value the energy or the big giant rp proc more

[minor echo]

Why's meowth black

[heavy orbit]

because it is?

i can see it

100%

[potent knoll]

oh my god you can't just ask people why they're black

[potent knoll]

Breaking news that may influence your decision: #1137606947307261992 message

We're seeing confirmed reports energy recovery from skills is affected by +/- energy natures

Means they're not as good at countering -energy mons, but they pay dividends on +energy ones

[heavy orbit]

it's a valid question.. his parents are yellow... something must have happened

[odd berry]

Okay, here's mine. My philosophy with this tier list is to organize Pokemon based on both their consistency (what are the odds that this Pokemon will be good? how subskill/nature/ingredient list dependent is it?) and their general usefulness (how viable is this Pokemon's kits? does it have a high frequency/good list of ingredients/helpful main skill?)

[heavy orbit]

is there a tldr? that thread has like hours worth of scrolling

[minor echo]

Idk what any other eeveelutions does outside of sylveon and espeon lol

I think vape is ingredient. Flare on cooking pot.

Not sure about Umbreon Leafeon Glaceon or Jolteon

[heavy orbit]

i'm torn on ditto. i personally put it mid tier cuz slowpoke tail is just a chance.. without it for me for sure it looses points

what are your thoughts about ditto

[vernal orbit]

no judgement but I think Byz doesn't see the colors

[heavy orbit]

wdym doesn't see the colors

your confusing me xD

[vernal orbit]

for me his color is the perfect fit / entre-deux

[vernal orbit]

they told me to move him from yellow side

[vernal orbit]

it seems clear that putting tortank as Red is strange

I rly need to go sleep...

[heavy orbit]

same i'm deciding between those 2.. and i gotta make my decission on friday.. it's tough cuz 150 hours was a lot of commitment.. honestly i can see it happen i evolve my eevee to sylv and next day i find a hungry one in the wild

sylveon has 2 niches to fill too

it's the best fairy imo and one of the 2 energy all pokemon

[potent knoll]

the link should take you to the relevant bit with picture evidence, but I summed it up after that comment--energy recovered through skills (like Sylveon's) is modified +/- 20% by natures. So if you have a lot of -Energy pokemon on your team, the skill provides less benefit (though you would need it more); if you have a lot of +Energy pokemon on your team, the skill gives you even more.

We're still actively trying to figure out how much this means "Energy skills good/bad" vs. "Energy natures good/bad"

[heavy orbit]

oh it didn't put me there.. but i also figured that out that the nature effects the skills.. no one believed me though

but my main question was rather.. do i need/want an energy battery(sylveon) on my team or not

like in general how useful it is

[minor echo]

Sylveon is just worse wiggly I think

[heavy orbit]

they are about the same imo

give or take not much diff

[minor echo]

Not sure how close Ampharos and Espeon are

[heavy orbit]

i would also rate them pretty close together personally

[minor echo]

Espeon and Sylveon my favorite Eeveelutions at least. I still haven't seen a single Eevee either.

[heavy orbit]

but ampharos is way harder to get

because you need a high level to evolve it

[minor echo]

Just hit great 3. I think I'm gonna hit master this week

[heavy orbit]

i hit it last week for the first time

[minor echo]

I was ultra 5 😢 my first two weeks I had no Pokémon to match Berry

[heavy orbit]

same

honestly a team thats good every week probably is better in the long run

i now have 4 that i never switch out and they will level constantly every week.. and only swap the last slot if i have a good fitting berry

[odd berry]

that is exactly why it is situationally excellent

a perfect ditto is the best ingredient gathering mon

[odd berry]

what

[heavy orbit]

how much points does a ditto need to befriend.. never saw one

but i think if it takes more than they daily when hungry people gonna cry when it doesn't have poke tails xD

[potent knoll]

16

[heavy orbit]

uff..

so it's a premium and a great if hungry

thats rough

[potent knoll]

Some even recommend Master Biscuting it, but imagine not getting slowpoke tails then 😬

[heavy orbit]

if u don't have premium it's daily+2 great+poke

rip

and it needs to be hungry in the first place

thats tough

i can see it.. i catch it.. it has poke tails.. and i scroll down and ingredients down

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/987344145666416651.webp?size=48&name=kekw&quality=lossless

[digital mortar]

if igglybuff is white tier the whole line is imo

i'll die on this hill

[vernal orbit]

bad joke about the color tier list dw, nothing wrong with you or your tier list

[vernal orbit]

then

[odd berry]

ah I thought it was a misunderstanding lol

[torn whale]

I do think there's a case for Heracross and Vaporeon to go higher. That skill procs ridiculously fast, I had an Eevee on my team for two days and it went off 8 times

Apart from that it's a respectable list

[worn nacelle]

I'd love more data on how often skill pokemon's skills go off compared to other pokemon. I'd love for heracross to actually be really good here 😅

[blissful mortar]

you mean vaporeon she brings the whole damn kitchen to an island

[thorny tangle]

me wheni pack for trips

[hazy turtle]

still grabbing data but 2 of my eevees with +skill proc twice a day so far whereas the nonskill pokemon avg <.8 skills/day

[worn nacelle]

Dang that's a pretty big difference

What if: pokemon have a chance to proc their main skill every time they help and provide something they are not specialized in. Like every time a berry pokemon provides and ingredient it has a chance to proc, or every time an ingredient pokemon picks a berry it has a chance to proc

So a skill pokemon would have the chance to proc on berries and ingredients

It's probably too complicated and crazy 😔

[blissful mortar]

Last night was very goofy

Qrill and I were exploring umbreon as a mon for snowdrop if dark is definitely there. I won't share it cause it was more just shooting the breeze but it was an interesting talk

I can't wait to hear energy values when we get them

[hazy turtle]

same

[hazy turtle]

dunno, there r so many hidden factors when it comes to skill pokemon

[blissful mortar]

All I know is that if I get a berry finder eevee I'm making it an umbreon for snowdrop as a shit post

And I'll laugh my ass off and vibe with it

And pray is good

[mortal maple]

you gotta do what you like, its a game to enjoy 😛

[warm smelt]

Apparently this Wiggly was rated "not bad", do you guys think I should invest in it

[torn whale]

No

[warm smelt]

Wiggly is A tier now iirc

[warm smelt]

Damn it

I have like no invested mons

[torn whale]

Skill trigger m is way too far and you kinda need +main skill nature

[warm smelt]

[wise turret]

@warm smelt I got this beautiful Iggy today - this is much more worth investing into, it's the best Pokemon I got yet with 2 low level golds 😱

Oops left out the natur

Have to sleep many hours with it before evolving tho 😵‍💫

[torn whale]

About a week of sleep would do it

[loud radish]

are we flexing our Igglys

https://tenor.com/view/baby-crazy-hyper-when-the-gif-23555540

[torn whale]

Sheesh

I only found my first one yesterday

[loud radish]

works good for me cause im a 6 hour Andy

[untold verge]

Jesus

[loud radish]

[wise turret]

Dayum that energypuff is energetic 😱

[heavy orbit]

did they change energy again?

i have so much energy left at the end of the day now

i noticed it yesterday

i don't have an energy battery but i ended with 40ish energy at the end of the day.. plus when i woke up i got full 100 eventhough i only got 82 score

[rocky furnace]

Not quite as good as y'alls but it IS shiny

[magic cliff]

Follow least shiny looking shiny owner

[obtuse loom]

We've just uncovered this btw

[obtuse loom]

The big thing: if I spent 500 hours working on a project to show the world, get 100 views, and some corpo doofus steals it and gets 1.5 million views, I'll be really salty

[obtuse loom]

Slaking is pretty solid for Area 4

[vernal orbit]

there is people with lvl 30 poke ?
did you share the info somewhere alrdy or not ?

[obtuse loom]

There is exactly one person I've seen with it rn

[neat elk]

the previous patch notes says feeding mushroom to snorlax causes an error . mushrooms are only available at level 30

[obtuse loom]

And the answer is "not enough data, but it seems to be 50/50" between ingredients

[vernal orbit]

lol ok, I feel the whale from here

[vernal orbit]

ok, thanks for sharing 👍

[worn nacelle]

Yeah but so is rat so how is slaking a full tier ahead of rat when it's worse? Same tier at best

[worn nacelle]

As in it chooses between the base or lvl 30 options each time you proc?

[wise junco]

Ingredient magnet >>>>>>> charge energy

[worn nacelle]

Only in early game but it's a pre-30s tier list I guess

Charge Energy is being massively underrated rn unless they changed energy again

[snow aurora]

very late to seeing this, but i’m curious why glaceon is so high especially compared to like jolteon

assuming it’s just how you calc’d pot skill because mangeton is also so high but

[odd berry]

i guess it's like one of two options for a rawst berry

[snow aurora]

wondering what exactly that looks like

[worn nacelle]

I'm going to guess pot skill will be only for spenders if we indeed only get the roll of 2/3 ingredients at 30 and 60

And not all ingredients

No way we're going to be able to produce 81 ingredients per meal with pokemon only having a 1/3 chance of dropping 8 instead of a 100% chance of dropping like 15

[obtuse loom]

Well yeah rat is S tier for Area 4

[worn nacelle]

Yeah agreed which is why slaking has no business being above rat in these lists. Maybe you could make the argument for vig but not a full tier haha

[warm smelt]

I know v11 of the tier list was released in the mathcord, but will it also be uploaded here too?

[torn whale]

I'm waiting on Sableye info before finishing up v12 and sharing that

[warm smelt]

Ahh okii

all of this just for sableye to be D tier 💀

[wraith inlet]

D for Dark

[vivid hare]

What does helping do?

[odd berry]

helping is when your pokemon does a thing

the more things it do, the higher the helping is

[vernal orbit]

"thing" being collecting berries or ingredients 1 time

[fickle perch]

I think it might be possible with certain teams

but focusing on pot expansion/maxing would require an ING/SKL setup

which is unlikely to be efficient at farming in the early game

what I have in mind is something along the lines of 3x Kanto starters with Ingredient Magnet (on top of their own gathering), and maybe 2x Extra Helpful S

or just have a full Kanto starter lineup. either works

[rancid umbra]

I still think the universal ideal mon is a berry specialist with ingrediant magnet and a high level ingrediant pool.

[fickle perch]

we're getting an update sometime soon

[rancid umbra]

Or a Strength Increase M skill specialist with berry+ and skill trigger subs

[fickle perch]

I think in the later game Ingredient mons with an extra Berry from the subskill will dominate

[rancid umbra]

I think berry+ for ingrediant mons is a mistake. Ingrediant mons with magnet and ingediant plus would be better.

[fickle perch]

no, the subskill

the subskill that literally adds a Berry to what you gather

[rancid umbra]

Every time an ingrediant mon finds a berry it deceases its optimal effectiveness

[fickle perch]

the subskill literally adds a Berry

it doesn't replace anything

[worn nacelle]

I don't even know if this would be enough is the thing

[rancid umbra]

Yes but you do not ever want to collect a berry

[fickle perch]

why not???

[rancid umbra]

Because the purpose of an ingrediant mon is to collect ingredients

[fickle perch]

possibly, but either way we won't know until the later game. we might get ways to increase gather speed as the levels go up

[rancid umbra]

If berry procs it is not doing its job

[fickle perch]

no?

ING mons get both

[wraith inlet]

Overnight it reduces their effective ability to stash ingredients but that's all really

[fickle perch]

I get INGs are preferable, but an ING mon with a Berry subskill is effectively both

[rancid umbra]

Which is not good

[fickle perch]

a BER mon with a Berry subskill gets a 50% berry gathering boost, an ING mon with a Berry subskill gets a 100% berry boost

it's great

you are losing nothing from getting an extra berry

[rancid umbra]

Ideally you want every help to be ING

[fickle perch]

I don't understand how you can say this is bad

there are no subskills that give you extra ingredients

there are subskills that increase your chances of gathering them, but that's different

[rancid umbra]

Would you rather have several slo tails or 2 berries?

[wraith inlet]

Berry finder does not affect the amount of ingredients it will find at all, except overnight

[worn nacelle]

The thing is you don't get to choose

[rancid umbra]

Berry+ takes up a slot

[worn nacelle]

It's random, so berry finder will help out when you inevitably don't get ingredients most of the time

Also true, I'd probably rather have a couple other subskills but it's far from bad I'd say

[fickle perch]

unless you know something I don't, it doesn't

it ADDS a Berry

it's not replacing anything

adding a Berry =/= replacing a drop with a Berry (which is what some Natures do in the other direction)

[rancid umbra]

Berry + takes up a sub skill slot

Yes and you want to NEVER get a berry in the first place

[fickle perch]

sure but that's a slot you're spending on doubling your Berry effectiveness

increasing your Ingredient chances by 14% doesn't compare, even if it's your speciality

and you have other subskill slots for that either way

[worn nacelle]

It's 36% and 18% for S, I'd say M would probably be better

On an ING mon

[fickle perch]

as it stands I think I'd still take the extra Berry for anything less than 50% ish

this is based off my own stats on my gains from Berries vs cooking

which may change over time (and already have)

other setups might make a 36% greater chance more effective though

if you're looking to only work off ingredients, long term you might be correct

but I don't foresee that point in time coming anytime soon

[rancid umbra]

Here is what I see as being the optimal ING subskills if you have ING magnet and and ING specialty:
ING M
help M
Skill Trig M
Skill Level M
ING S

No room for berry +

[worn nacelle]

I think help bonus outweighs all here

[warm smelt]

V11 (subject to be updated soon)

[worn nacelle]

I also think berry is probably better than the mainskill ones but that's harder to do the math on

[wraith inlet]

Inventory up or bust

[fickle perch]

I disagree on ING S - at that point, the additional % it gives you will be less than the boost you get from a whole extra berry

[worn nacelle]

Skill lvl M I feel like is overrated for mega late game too, just use main skill seeds (if not f2p 😭)

[rancid umbra]

Haha OK fine but that is lvl 100

[fickle perch]

and if we're doing full sets (I was comparing each subskill against one another, but we can turn it around too) then I think the extra Berry will be hands down in every S tier kit of every mon, not just BER mons

it also depends if you're making considerations about what's helpful over the course of the game vs when you're at 100

[rancid umbra]

At lvl 100 you are God anyways haha

[fickle perch]

imo extra Berry is going to be relevant for the foreseeable future if not forever

other skills it depends

there are some that are universally amazing and some that may or may not be amazing depending on how the numbers turn out

[wraith inlet]

Ideally your ingredient pokemon is either so effective you can stock up for the week in a short time and then switch it out, or it is just effective enough to sustain your ingredient needs throughout the week while everything else is berries

[fickle perch]

currently I have two time horizons, one up to around lv25 (medium term) and one up to around lv50 (long term)

anything past lv50 is mechanically impossible in the game as it stands

because you can only level to 50 xD

[fickle perch]

this is part of why I'm thinking ING team with extra Berry

[rancid umbra]

I actually find it funny how you want an ING mon to produce berries. That makes my mind melt.

[fickle perch]

if you get a lineup of 5x Kanto starters with Snorlax's favourite Berry (which you can do on non-Greengrass islands) and they each have an extra Berry from the subskill, it's basically the same as having a 5-Totodile setup on Cyan but you ALSO get the ingredients on top

is it sufficient to get to Master 20? no idea

[rancid umbra]

Build it so it procs berries as infrequently as possible.

[fickle perch]

does it work? for sure

[rancid umbra]

I mean honest berry+ is God tier early game

On any mon

[fickle perch]

🤷 if you've listened to the podcast about natures, they advocate for Adamant on everything other than ING

and +Attack on ING

[worn nacelle]

It's like 5 toto setup if the totos all had +ingredients natures and or subskills which you probably wouldn't have built in the first place

[fickle perch]

and the reason is that overall effectiveness is increased more

[rancid umbra]

But if you want the BEST ING mon it does not have berry +

[fickle perch]

it checks out mathematically

yes, it does, and I've already explained why

I think we're going in circles and there's not much point repeating

[rancid umbra]

I challenge your math then

[fickle perch]

if I'm wrong later, cool, I have no problem with that

well you're welcome to challenge my math with your math

[rancid umbra]

The problem all I get is a "I told you so" which is not frankly worth it

[fickle perch]

lol

[rancid umbra]

I agree early game berry+ shines

[wraith inlet]

You are limited to cooking 21 times per week, which means that any ingredients you pick up past what is needed for those meals don't directly benefit you. That's why you also want berries, or, something so effective you can switch it out.

[rancid umbra]

But not for the long game maxization

[fickle perch]

I've made my case, I rest it now

[worn nacelle]

Eventually the pot size gets to 81 and even higher with magnemite, I really think we will struggle to hit these values for meals

[rancid umbra]

True but what I max pot size?

[fickle perch]

like I said, if the math proves me wrong, happy to be wrong

[rancid umbra]

You will likely never hit 81 ING per meal

[fickle perch]

you don't know that

we don't have the math

[rancid umbra]

Therefore you are not limited on usage opertunity for ING

[fickle perch]

you would never hit 81 per meal as of today, but an 81 meal ingredient was clearly not designed to be feasible a month into the game

[wraith inlet]

What if? I don't think we know how effective ingredient Pokémon will look at that level.

[rancid umbra]

If I collected 81 slow tails every meal there is nothing that beats that strategy.

[wraith inlet]

I'm just stating the two best logical scenarios

You either want so many ingredients, or you want just enough

[rancid umbra]

Again berry+ is not bad, just not optimal

[wraith inlet]

For only one of the two optimal scenarios

[fickle perch]

if you're going to make an argument something isn't optimal, use math

you said you want to challenge the math

[rancid umbra]

81 slo tail is the highest strength strategy in the game

[fickle perch]

what is the math that suggests you extra Berry is not optimal

[rancid umbra]

If it is achievable

[rancid umbra]

Because you do not want to ever proc a berry

[fickle perch]

you're going to proc berries regardless

[rancid umbra]

The goal is to NEVER proc berry

[fickle perch]

you can't completely erase the likelihood of gathering berries

[rancid umbra]

OK fine but it is not ideal to do so

[fickle perch]

if you gather a berry, you get two.
there's no scenario where this is a loss, mathematically speaking

[wraith inlet]

The goal should be to accept that berry procs happen and make the optimal build with that in mind, not to pretend they don't

[fickle perch]

that's why I'm asking what math you have in mind that somehow makes that undesirable

[rancid umbra]

Therefore your GOAL is to make a build that procs berry as little as possible.

Not reward berry proc

[wraith inlet]

With the tools available your goal is to look at which tradeoff puts you ahead

Not just assume all ingredient subskills will win and work backwards from there

[rancid umbra]

Additionally if main skill procs at max level with ING magnet it is again far more desirable than berry proc

Design goal 1: Minimize berry procs

Design Goal 2: make the mon fast

Design Goal 3: maximize skill proc

[wraith inlet]

You have your hypothesis, you should dig into the math and test it

[rancid umbra]

Design Goal 4: Maximize skill level

BONUS lvl 100: mitigate impact of berry proc by making it more beneficial.

Additionally, if you have a good ING mon like I have described you can use it on any map.

[rancid umbra]

Again an "I told you so" is not worth the time. I have already spent too much time making an argument that ING mons ideally never proc berry.

Will they proc berry sure, but their main purpose is to never do so.

[wraith inlet]

I didn't say I told you so. I already agreed that this is one of the ideal ways to build an ingredient mon.

But you are just acting like everything you say is a fact

[fickle perch]

^^^

and you're basically refusing to make a proper argument other than the basic "ingredient specialists should gather ingredients"

[wraith inlet]

You have made a lot of assumptions based on good logic but they need to be played out

[fickle perch]

yes, that much is for certain

[torn whale]

There are cases where ingredient mons do benefit from berry drops, e.g. Gengar

[rancid umbra]

How can anyone argue that an ING or Skill proc is worse than a berry proc on an ING mon with ING magnet?!

[torn whale]

So it's not a uniform best build

[fickle perch]

in the end it's possible it turns out you're right, we know very little about the game

anything is possible

but the fact you're stating what you're thinking as if it's absolute truth and aren't even hypothesising you could be wrong is quite off-putting

[wraith inlet]

I laid out an argument already, you don't want more ingredients than you can use therefore its good to balance things

[fickle perch]

having conversations about the meta is constructive and interesting

but discussing that way... doesn't make it very interesting

[rancid umbra]

A single ING mon will not saturate ING storage at 81 ING per cook.

[wraith inlet]

You don't use only one pokemon

[rancid umbra]

If it did it would be even more broken than what I have stated

I am making a claim for the single best ING mon build

[wraith inlet]

Yes, that's also what I have considered

But your pokemon has to fit on a team and the entire output taken into consideration. If your team as a whole takes in too many ingredients that's even more argument for berry finding.

And again, how the game will play at 81 pot size is such an unknown that your ideas or anyone else's are just a guess. So again not worth stating them like they're set in stone.

Here's my guess for how the ultra late game will play out.
You want to start off with a team that will get you 21x the base ingredients for your best meal that week as quick as possible and then swap them out. You then want pokemon that will give you the most high value ingredients to fill the remainder of your pots. It will either be possible to max out the pot each meal including Sunday, or it won't. If you can max it, you want to be able to build a surplus until you can switch to a full berry team. If you can't max it, you want the best mix of ing/berry finding, whatever that ends up being. Not guaranteed to lean one way or another.

It might also end up that we have to do alternating weeks, where we spend one week collecting ingredients and one week doing berries and cooking.

Based on how scary a number 81 (plus sundays) sounds right now I imagine alternating weeks will become a big thing, but who knows.

[rancid umbra]

The goal is to use as few ING mons as possible in order to fill either your bag or your pot for each meal.

That way you can focus the remainder of the team on berries or skill procs

Once the pot/bag is consistently full ING no longer has value and you would fill the roster with favorite berry specialists.

[wraith inlet]

That is one of the things I just said

[minor echo]

Ideal team is just 5 Butterfree. Ez lol

[rancid umbra]

There we go ^^^

[fickle perch]

and I will once again point out that two Berry Finder skills replace one entire Pokemon gathering berries

mathematical observation

[minor echo]

I'm happy I rolled Berry finder on my Gastly

[fickle perch]

oh yeah that's busted

great for you

I hope the nature is good

[minor echo]

Oh no I didn't

[rancid umbra]

On Grepa or Mago Greengrass Isle, I wonder what a full team of Strength M Espeon/Ampharos with berry+ could do?

[minor echo]

Wrong mon 😂

I was thinking of a different moon with Berry finder lol

Ignore me

My Bell rolled berry finder lol

[rancid umbra]

That is a top tier Gastly!

[rancid umbra]

But if you don't want the pokemon to gather berries then it does not replace anything

[fickle perch]

give me the math

I have given it to you

every single observation I've made has been quantitative

none of yours have been

I'm tired of you speaking in absolutes like you're the developer of the game

[rancid umbra]

@fickle perch for the last time, YOU DO NOT WANT AN ING SPECIALIST TO GATHER BERRIES!

Why have an ING specialist at all if you want it to gather berries?!

[odd berry]

where is berry finder

oh lol

[rancid umbra]

Point me to the math and I will look at it tonight.

[fickle perch]

first of all don't scream

second of all that's not math

I'm not continuing the conversation unless you motivate your statements with quantitative information

[scenic fulcrum]

I think he was talking about ingredient finder?

[fickle perch]

I have explained to you that an extra Berry is 100% Berry efficiency, that two mons with an extra Berry replace one entire team slot you can use for whatever you want

all of that is math

and if you scroll up and reread, you'll find more

I've not seen a single number in your posts

[rancid umbra]

TBH for as much as you have made me work for this I am not sure I would give you the results anyways.

[fickle perch]

if I don't see numbers, I'm going to dismiss you

[rancid umbra]

Perfect!

Carry on sir!

[fickle perch]

also lol

"I'm not sure I would give you the results"

great attitude to have, kudos to you

that's exactly how communities learn and grow, by not sharing data

[rancid umbra]

I wish you the best!

[scenic fulcrum]

bye!

I came here to see facts, not opinions

[minor echo]

I think Berry finder is great on high power berries

Even not on Berry mons

[wraith inlet]

Hold on this might be the Shepard we're talking to, from the hit video game series mass effect. Maybe we should listen and take everything he says as the truth.

[rancid umbra]

Investigate what pleases you.

[modest marsh]

berry mon with berry finder gives 1.5x bonus, non-berry mon gains ~2x

[minor echo]

Definitely better than some other subskills

We also don't have berry specialists on some types.

[scenic fulcrum]

I think is great even on berry finders

Same reason as the other guy saidç

[wraith inlet]

Mfw I'm struggling to just get enough apples to make tea but I'm thinking about level 100 82 pot size game play

[scenic fulcrum]

Its an extra berry for the team

[fickle perch]

gdi you should've told me sooner! all hail the Messiah 😂

[scenic fulcrum]

thinking about the team you get an extra berry dont matter the speciality from the pokemon that does have berry finder

Becuse its additive, not multiplicative like ing finder wich is better on an ing specialist

[minor echo]

Which types are missing berry specials. Rock. Steel ghost. Psychic fairy?

Berry finder would be nice on Larvitar

[torn whale]

There's several reasons: some types do not have berry mons so you need ingredient specialists to fill the role, e.g. Gengar and Golem. If you're only generating ingredients, if you roll an ingredient amount that goes over carry capacity you're wasting resources, berries can pad this out

That 2nd point is especially notable later on, with the lv30 and 60 drops

[torn whale]

I'd rather Golem for that. You lose rock as Ttar, dark has a berry specialist in Houndoom

[minor echo]

What?! Ttar gets dark berries?

Damn

[odd berry]

ttar does not get dark berries

unless larvitar changes upon evolution

which is probably what azul is saying now that i think abt it

[wraith inlet]

Yeah it changes to dark for ttar

[minor echo]

Here's the weepinbell I was thinking of on accident lol

All the inventory in the world

Awful nature. But this could be decent if we get mints

Gonna call him Wendys cause he got that 4 for 4

[odd berry]

MID!

[minor echo]

Yeah I agree. I think late game it could be good if I can change nature tho

Using it as filler for now. For preferred berry and I need tomatoes

[rancid umbra]

@fickle perch (the supreme intelligence of math and logic)
-Assume lvl 60 Charizard
Case 1: Skill proc on max ING magnet is 21 random ING (take weighted average of all ING to find the expected value) > 2 favorite berries (ideal case) = 116x4 = 464

Case 2: ING Proc
Assume ING proc worst case scenario, only one tier procs, not all three (p=1/3 tier 1, p=1/3 tier 2, or p=1/3 tier 3) because we do know exactly how ING proc at 60 works.
Assume t1= 2x saus., t2= 5x saus., t3= 7 ginger
E(x) = [2103 * 1/3] + [5103 * 1/3] + [7*109 * 1/3]
= 494/ING proc > 2 fav berries (464)

Summary:
Both Skill proc and ING proc provide more strength gains ON AVERAGE than best case scenario of berry+ with fav berry.

Therefore ING proc and Skill proc chance/level should be maximized in order to provide the highest strength gains on an ING specialist vs running berry+.

Are you happy now?

[rancid umbra]

You have a valid point 👍

@torn whale in the case where an ING specialist is used for its berries, I would argue there is a better option by using a berry specialist that has an alternate favorite berry.

[fickle perch]

what's your point with these? if my understanding is correct, in case 1 you're comparing a skill proc (from a skill) with the outcome of a single subskill. if you're weighing the average yield of a skill proc vs average yield of a berry proc, you need to do that by average procs per day, because those differ wildly between berries/ingredients and skills (you will have WAY more berries/ingredients than skill procs regardless of what you do).

the gains you put forward in case 2 are the base gains for a proc. they don't take into consideration the modifiers of that probability (e.g. beneficial nature = x1.2, negative nature = x0.8, etc.) - unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying I'm not sure that's the logic you should use to estimate effectiveness?

extra Berry is a modifier, that should be compared with modifiers

[torn whale]

Depends on the island. Outside of Greengrass you can plan for, otherwise it's possible to end up with a combination you don't have helpers for, or you end up with 3 of the 4 types without a berry mon

[rancid umbra]

Full seriousness, I was not trying to be a turd even though I was, my apologies. I just though what I was stating an obvious piece of information that did not require numerical rigor to prove.

[snow aurora]

It’s also worth considering that it’s possible no matter how much ing+ stuff you get a berry drop is still more common, so you will get more berry drops and therefore berry finding affects a bigger % of your output than ing boosts would

[torn whale]

I kinda had that this week. normal, psychic and rock berries and don't have rat or slakoth

[snow aurora]

aka a berry drop doesn’t need to be better 1:1 for the skill to be better

[fickle perch]

that's fine and I accept that, no worries there

I do seriously think you raised a point worthy of consideration and that there can be a good argument for both sides, which is why I've tried to continue the discussion (civilly)

my point here is that the obvious solution is not always the best solution - I learned this after I looked at natures and learned why Adamant is better not only for BER but other specialists too, which doesn't seem intuitive

but the math checks out

so I think it's always worth going through the math, because something that looks intuitively obvious might not be correct after the numbers are run

[rancid umbra]

Also this Chars ingrediants or not optimal

Anyone have the probs on berry drop vs ING drop?

For an ING specialist mon

@snow aurora has a great point

Maybe you can not overcome berry drop probs. If berries drop more often then ING or Skill proc, no matter the sub-skill and nature, then berry+ is always better.

However if ING probs + Skill probs is > than berry probs then ING and Skill should be maximized.

[minor echo]

Don't think we have ingredient finding numbers yet sadly

Feels like my ingredient mons get 75% berries 25% ingredients. Without ingredient finder up skill or nature

Don't have the actual data. But it's what it feels like

[torn whale]

It's on Serebii

https://serebii.net/pokemonsleep/skills.shtml

[rancid umbra]

@fickle perch I do not have to compare subskill for subskill if I can achieve the following:
Skill proc chance + ING proc chance > berry chance.

Either case results in higher strength gains.

[minor echo]

Oh so we just need to test drop rates without modifiers to calculate right?

[rancid umbra]

@torn whale I think he meant the base probability of finding an ING on an ING mon.

We know the modifier values

Just not the base rate.

[torn whale]

Ah they said ingredient finder as in the sub skill so I assumed that's what they thought is missing

[minor echo]

My b lol

[rancid umbra]

@fickle perch The final equation to determine if berry+ (Case 3) is better than Case1/2 is as follows:

(Case 1 pts × prob) + (Case 2 pts × prob) / (Case 3pts × prob)
= Proportion of factored strength gains from Skill/ING vs Berry+ w/fav gains.

If I knew the base rate for an ING proc I could easily solve the equation.

[obtuse loom]

CAP

Radicate is like S tier for Area 4

Basically borderline mandatory

A team of 5 Radicates is viable

[odd berry]

which one's 4, the ice area?

[obtuse loom]

Ye

[odd berry]

it wants normal berries?

[obtuse loom]

Ye

[odd berry]

because normal people love to live in the freezing cold

[obtuse loom]

Rawst Persim Wiki

Ice, Normal, Dark

And when you look at Ingredients, you realize that basically Umbreon and Raticate are like the only good mons lmfao

[snow aurora]

💀

@warm smelt why is magnezone so much higher than glaceon?

[obtuse loom]

They put Raticate in D tier when it's basically the only viable mon in Arena 4 lol

[snow aurora]

like i get them both being high or both being low depending on how u feel about pot skill, but why so far apart

[snow aurora]

ah but i am going to run 4 absol 1 glaceon for the infinite apple farm 😎

also lucario/persian over jolt/arca just has me sad ngl lmao

[white cradle]

Does anyone have absol yet

[blissful mortar]

There was a screenshot of it in rate my mon a couple days ago

[minor echo]

Waiting for an absol incense

[sour junco]

I was able to get one, not a great nature, but I'm a fan.

[worn nacelle]

Idk you could still use that triple ingredient finder

Since carry limit isn't that big -speed will at least not bog you down with berries? 😅

[frail pike]

Yeah, I'm guessing that overcomes the 10% speed drop

[worn nacelle]

8 apples and then 7 shrooms is just nuts

[frail pike]

Ingredient up in three places

[frail pike]

And cacao as base

Crazy

[worn nacelle]

Yeah like every outcome is good as long as you hit ingred

[sour junco]

Hadn't thought about it, but I guess speed of help doesn't matter as much with such a low capacity, true, lol

[frail pike]

Oh, does getting ing then roll between the ones you have unlocked? I assumed it gave all of them

[worn nacelle]

We don't know for sure yet. First people just getting 30 now. There was a report that it was either one or the other at 30

But not confirmed

But it's super important, that will change everything

[frail pike]

Agreed

RIP berry buds if you get all of them at once

Or perhaps the opposite, you could maybe get by with fewer ing gatherers

[sour junco]

My Absol wouldn't even have enough room, lol

[blissful mortar]

I'm just happy you got that inventory up later

it's a small, but if it turns out to be on squad that long you're likely willing to subskill seed that up (mint copium)

[sour junco]

True, lol. Make it an L eventually.

[rancid umbra]

Pretty sure this thing is busted! It is an ingredient mon with +ING x3.

[tawny nova]

Leafeon just shafted in every game it’s ever released in lol. SADGE

[solar steeple]

Is kanga any good?

[whole valley]

To the discussion earlier, it seems like you would need to know the odds of getting a berry proc from an ing mon to know whether berry+ is worth it or not. From my ingredient mons dropping berries fairly often I feel like it would definitely be worth it as it doubles the output in the case that that happens, but it’s hard to know without numbers

[final mason]

Pokemon Masters EX has entered the chat

Both the Leafeon in that gsmr are turbo broken

[obtuse loom]

Could you DM be for a moment?

I have a lil request for you I'd like to try if you're available

(Basically, I just really wanna see what happens when that Absol has a Helper Whistle pop for it)

[warm smelt]

This is Azul's list

[warm smelt]

^

[obtuse loom]

And it's CAP

[warm smelt]

[snow aurora]

ah mb

[warm smelt]

V12 better be good

[snow aurora]

@torn whale bonk

[sour junco]

Hey, sorry for the late response. I have actually used a helper whistle with it before, and I believe I got 4 cocoas, but I don't mind doing one again!

I was just short of making the chocolate ham salad thing last week, so I used one, lol.

Also, I should mention this Absol is not at 100% right now, no idea if that matters for whistles. It's at 37%. If it does matter, I can put it in my sleep party tonight.

[loud radish]

Steel berries, and the Main Skill is just too good.

[snow aurora]

they have the same main skill… and ice berries actually have a favored island rn while steel does not

[loud radish]

isnt Walrein 2x ice berries

covers that slot pretty good

[snow aurora]

i think it’s wild to consider having a berry specialist of your type existing brings a mon from S to C tier lmao

[sour junco]

Do the tier lists take into account opportunity cost of evolving into one mon over another? So, Eevee into the various evolutions or Slowpoke into Slowbro/Slowking kind of deal? Maybe the reason for Magnezone being higher?

[snow aurora]

idk, that’s why i asked the dude who made it

best way to get the reasoning

[frail pike]

I think they said it was someone else's

[odd berry]

Guys, I have just discovered that crossing your fingers before tapping on your Pokemon will raise the chance of it activating its main skill

[amber igloo]

Following this

[worn nacelle]

I'm starting to doubt the main skill if ingredient mon don't get all of their ingredients at once and it's a roll instead

Someone will have to do the math to demonstrate that we can collect 243 ingredients per day and double that on sundays

[torn whale]

Only steel type in the game, can evolve twice so gets an additional evo bonus over it, and has better base stats

Glaceon is outclassed both when it comes to ice berry (Walrein), and as a skill battery (Flareon and Magnezone)

[torn whale]

Not quite like that. It's more if they all need the same evo stone, e.g. Raichu, Magnezone and Jolteon needing thunderstone. Magnezone is down to A in my draft partially because of this

For the Slowpoke evos, Slowbro is a straight-up worse version of Slowking so always go for the latter

...is what I'd say if it weren't so damn expensive to evolve. Not one but two evo items is yikes

[vernal orbit]

with friends reaching lvl 3 we'll get more Evo items

[neat elk]

is it random like the ingredients ticket or you can choose ?

[untold verge]

Bro what are those ingredient numbers

That's crazy

[loud radish]

absol is cracked

[torn whale]

Yup, for some reason it has absurd apple counts

Lv60 it has 12

[wraith inlet]

Absol-utely obsessed with picking stuff up it finds on the ground

[rancid umbra]

@fickle perch another factor that I did not consider that suggests Case 1 and Case 2 procs should be optimized is critical cooks. There is a 1/x chance that ingrediant values will be doubled. Imagine getting a critical cook on an 81 ingrediant pot.

I see berry+ as an analogue to the Adamant Nature, it is best in class on all mons except for the optimal ING mon (ING spec. w/ING magnet).

I revise my equation stated above. In order to do a true comparison of which two cases should be optimized you would have to compare the factored value of each case against each other in order to determine the rank/priority of optimization instead of comparing 2 cases against 1.

I have no idea what the probability of a critical is though.

[random urchin]

Dead 💀 that’s a legit good pun

[neat elk]

during Sunday double boost with a good camp set active

oops wrong clip attached

[frail pike]

how so?

[ember path]

Is there an updated tier list somewhere?

[neat elk]

got it. it was when I was running a full ingredients magnet S mons and I had so much ingredients left

[rancid umbra]

If ingrediant gathering is maximized for mid tier and late tier mons it is absolutely busted.

[sand wave]

hi

[frail pike]

Updated for what in particular?

[ember path]

For the helper pokemon tier list (what this channel was originally for)

[odd berry]

so pissed that I can't make huge power soy donuts (needs a pot size of 22)

[worn nacelle]

He's waiting on sableye data

[frail pike]

I meant what changes are you expecting to see, lol

[worn nacelle]

Rat way up, slaking magnezone down

[odd berry]

Magnezone ain't coming down but Slaking absolutely should

And replaced with Vigoroth

[ember path]

Sorry im not a native english speaker (or just dumb) so i understood it wrong, but i think absol wil be better than it is rated cause at lvl 30/60 it can have a lot of ingrediënts

[worn nacelle]

Idk, I think magnezone absolutely should, we have no idea if pot will even be helpful. It's terrible early game and unproven late game

It's in S tier on speculation alone

[wraith inlet]

I'm guessing that it will be useful mid game if our pot size increases can't catch up to our pokemon effectiveness

[heavy orbit]

i mean if you can currently not reach a higher recipe that you would reach with magnezon it would be good but also you would need to have the ingredients on hand and have the skill procc.. and when you "max" your pot that also wouldn't apply anymore.. i too think it's pretty situational or speculative at the moment

[mellow jewel]

Isn't one of the big reasons magnezone is up there due to it being the only steel type berry?

[worn nacelle]

I mean you get more value from using Pikachu than using favored magnemite berry if you can't make use of the bigger pot size

I have steel berry this week and am currently electing to run 5 pokemon without favored berries at all over my mag (I've put him in a couple days here and there)

[frail pike]

If this is true than he should come down imho, I think pot size skill is being over-valued

it's too RNG and can be replaced with an actual upgrade to the pot

in a way other skills cannot

[shut perch]

I think Gengar can reasonably get ~32-38 Ing per day pre level 30. I don't have Ghastly, but if it's 2-4, then post level 30 you can see 46-58. So you could crack 200 reasonably with level 30 Pokemon.

[frail pike]

Like the only skills I would put below pot size are dream shards, energizing cheer, and self-only energy recovery on a mon without an energy down nature. I would rather have anything else

I would rather have a comedy metronome togekiss, lol

[shut perch]

In my tier list, I agree that pot is overvalued. Easily drops Magnet and icyhot to C/D tier levels if you're not using it.

[frail pike]

I guess there is a potential future where you're getting so many ingredients that you want more than the fully-upgraded pot size just to cram in your extras in for raw value, but I think we are literal years (plural) away from that at current leveling rates

and until then, just buy another pot upgrade and run a skill that isn't easily replaced by that

[heavy orbit]

i think the problem is not to get the ingredients.. you will later for sure.. but the problem is.. does that proc help you get a better real recipe? and if so does it proc during meal time and you have the right ingredients for that new real recipee

[worn nacelle]

32-38 seems high but I could be wrong. Gengar's speed of help is 2x as fast as gastly ish? I'm definutely not getting 16 ing per day from my gasty

[heavy orbit]

there is a lot of IF's that need to be checked in order for magnezone to be good imo

[frail pike]

Too many to be realistic

[worn nacelle]

Remember for magnemite to work it has to be on your team gathering almost 0 ingredients too so you'd have to hit 243 basically with 4 pokemon

And also at higher rates unless you have inventory up, ingredient pokemon might lose a lot overnight