#Remove or revise the Red Cross symbol from the Recovery Room in the Arcanum

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

orchid ember
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On Reddit, someone brought something to my attention, which is that in the Recovery Room in the Arcanum (where you go to see Mellori at the end of the first half of Empyrea and the start of the second half) has a Red Cross symbol. Quite a few games have needed to remove that symbol like Stardew Valley. After doing some brief research, I feel that this probably should be removed because it does violate US laws according to Cornell Law School, as well as Red Cross documentation that suggests that it's not permitted to use it without permission. I'm not entirely sure that KI does have that permission because older versions of spells like Cycle of Life and Guiding Light used to display a red + symbol until it was changed to a heart. The Red Cross website does have a PDF that shows acceptable alternatives that can be used in place of the symbol. Could this please be looked into? I don't know the exact laws about this (I'm not a lawyer), but it does seem concerning.

Also the reason I put it in the housing section is because the original thread on Reddit suggested placing the items in the room related to medical stuff (like the vision test chart and heart rate monitor) would make for great housing decorations as the OP of that post says that they work in the medical field, which I agree with. However, one of the screenshots depicted a red cross symbol, which isn't allowed to be used outside of certain approved cases. I'm familiar with some other games that had to remove or modify that symbol, like Among Us which had to change it (which an update changed it from red to blue, making it be in compliance) in the MedBay area.

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I guess people probably would expect me to provide sources for what I'm saying, which would be fair.

Here's a PDF hosted at the Red Cross website: https://www.redcross.org/content/dam/redcross/Brand-Creative/153701-07-OGC-Trademarks-Flyer.pdf

Who may use the Red Cross emblem?

Countries around the world protect the Red Cross emblem and
limit its use to official Red Cross organizations and programs, as
well as the medical services of their armed forces.

In the United States, only the American Red Cross and the medical
corps of the Armed Forces are permitted by law to use the Red
Cross emblem. The only exception to that important exclusivity was
granted to the few U.S. companies that were already using a red
cross emblem in their trademarks before 1906. One well-known
example is Johnson & Johnson. Use of the Red Cross emblem by
anyone else is not only prohibited, but also unlawful in the United
States and around the world.

In other parts of the PDF, they mention that lookalikes are not permitted either, especially if it's on a white background (which the banner is).

Congress understood the importance of protecting the Red Cross emblem and made its unauthorized use a crime in federal criminal statute 18 U.S.C. §706. This statute prohibits not just fraudulent use of the Red Cross emblem, but any use. In addition, the statute prohibits use of designs imitating the Red Cross emblem.

I don't think I need to explain how the above banner would look like it's referencing the Red Cross logo

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Here's where it had to be changed in Among Us for the same reason, citing that it's a violation of the Geneva Convention.

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Here's a list of symbols that KI CAN use instead if they wish (source is the same PDF which I mentioned above):

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coral tulip
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Weirdly, I'd suggest a music note in place of the red cross

cursive wadi
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Isn't also White cross inside a red background/circle/square accepted and safe? I think a lot of games use that instead for this reasons.

orchid ember
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Not that anything is inherently wrong with Switzerland (that I know of anyway), but I don't think that that's what they are trying to reference

cursive wadi
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Quick ugly mockup.

orchid ember
# cursive wadi

I could accept that honestly. Although because I'm not a lawyer, if it was up to me, I'd rather them use one of the approved designs mentioned above. At least for me, the top left is the most recognizable

cursive wadi
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There is definitely more into it. I mean, Overwatch is rocking red cross on their medkits. Could be because it's skewed and on blueish background.

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orchid ember
# cursive wadi There is definitely more into it. I mean, Overwatch is rocking red cross on thei...

The documentation still considers it misuse if it's rotated

What is a Misuse?
Misuse occurs when an unauthorized party uses the Red Cross
emblem without permission.
This includes designs of a cross of equal or substantially equal
vertical and horizontal “arms” crossing in the middle in a shade of
red or a color that can be mistaken for red (for example, maroon,
magenta, dark pink, reddish orange). A misuse can either be a
reproduction of the Red Cross emblem or the incorporation of
the Red Cross emblem into a design. Misuses include red cross
symbols that are:

• Slanted, tipped or italicized

• Thin or thick
• Outlined in a color other than red or partially filled in
another color
• On a background other than white
• Included with a figure, symbol or word superimposed on it
• Broken into component parts that, when taken as a whole,
appear as a red cross symbol
• Integrated as an element of a logo

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Top left of page 2

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Among Us had to change it and it too was on a blue-ish background

cursive wadi
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Or they have it authorized.

orchid ember
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It's possible

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A lot of games have gotten in trouble over this from what I hear

cursive wadi
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It's Blizzard, Red Cross would gladly come after them.

orchid ember
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It is possible to get an authorization in the context of movies, as the Red Cross notes

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But I haven't seen any approval for it to be used in games

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https://www.redcross.ca/about-us/about-the-canadian-red-cross/red-cross-emblem/it-may-just-be-a-game-to-you-but-it-means-the-world-to-us

The Red Cross Emblem: It may just be fun and games to you, but it m...

Recently, the misuse of the Red Cross emblem in video games has received media attention. But the issue of protecting the Red Cross emblem is not new. Despite the efforts of the Red Cross Movement over many years, the emblem has been improperly displayed by individuals, businesses and organizations in a vast range of uses from first aid supplier...

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I know it says Canadian, but because Innersloth is based in the US (just like KI), KI would have to follow the same laws (also the Red Cross is an international organization anyway)

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I did a slight bit more research, I guess you can get permission, but that would be on Blizzard to prove they have it

cursive wadi
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Or, you know, why not use Life color scheme? They are the healing school after all. There are many ways to solve it if they want to. Or something along the lines of Guiding Light.

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orchid ember
pliant ruin
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Copyright is terrible they can cry about it

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Freedom of art is important and if you disagree don’t talk to me

glad barn
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i like the green version. but i do think this is a bit frivolous waste of resources by red cross

gleaming swift
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Doesn't the green cross usually refer to a certain leafy substance

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it mutes me if I try to type its actual name

west root
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The awkward moment wizard101 accidentally violates the Geneva convention

orchid ember
orchid ember
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I just don't want KI to end up in trouble

pliant ruin
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It is a problem of freedom of art. Im not saying they shouldn't change it i'm saying that anyone censoring stuff is terrible.

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The hate symbols people are allowed in the US to have in their house is wild, but this is a crime makes no sense to me.

orchid ember
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Yeah, I don't like the hate symbols either, I'm just mentioning that the design is protected by law and that KI shouldn't be using it. I don't know how aggressive the Red Cross is about it, but generally, when confronted about it, games are quick to either remove or change it

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As mentioned before, Stardew Valley (a game I haven't played, but I've heard of) had to remove it, and Among Us had to modify it too. They probably will just kindly ask KI to remove or modify it

pliant ruin
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I wasn't disagreeing with you i'm just saying it shouldn't be illegal.

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How are people supposed to know where to go for help if its removed from all media.

orchid ember
pliant ruin
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Its not shown in schools(unless some highschools do) and i only know about it from video games lol.

glad barn
# pliant ruin It is a problem of freedom of art. Im not saying they shouldn't change it i'm sa...

actually it is the protection of art. (i believe) it is the same laws that make copying someone else's artwork illegal too. that said, in this case it is about corporate identity. it is too prevent others from using logos and graphics intended to or might deceive the public into thinking a product or service is from or supported by that other group (in this case the red cross). that said, i feel that icon is too generic for such broad protections. i can't copywrite "my phone" because that is common words. when you trademark a logo you have to define unique characteristics. does blue cross and blue shield have trademark on a blue cross? it just seems too simple and too broad. IMHO

orchid ember
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It was where I grew up *shrugs*

pliant ruin
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health packs in all games look like it to me

orchid ember
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I do feel that copyright can be far too broad though sometimes, yes

orchid ember
glad barn
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i get you can't sell a product or advertise with that on it because of potential confusion, but on an item in a game seems like a stretch to make the argument of corporate or public harm

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red cross can SAY all they want, but that doesn't mean it is the law. they can sue anyone they want, but doesn't mean they'll win. but generally, it is a lot easier to just comply than pay all those legal fees to fight

orchid ember
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In the US anyway, not sure about anywhere else

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But KI is based in the US

pliant ruin
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Yea sadly its the law

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dumb but law

glad barn
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well hot dang that crazy. but that law is still specific and you noted documents about interpretation of what is included in "the likeness". and that including the slight rotation or other backgrounds. where is that from?

orchid ember
coral tulip
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@faint bay ! This one's a legal issue!

glad barn
# orchid ember https://www.redcross.org/content/dam/redcross/Brand-Creative/153701-07-OGC-Trade...

as noted that is the red cross interpretation/summary of what is allowed or not. and the red cross on other backgrounds is probably based on their trademarks. and again they specifically say harm can come from confusion with other products or services or confusion of who they are. i could technically claim such use in a game does no such thing and in fact helps reinforce their mission for international recognition. but as i said, unfortunately a fight not worth fighting

orchid ember
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I still see this regardless:

Whoever, whether a corporation, association or person, other 
than the American National Red Cross and its duly authorized 
employees and agents and the sanitary and hospital authorities 
of the armed forces of the United States, uses the emblem of 
the Greek red cross on a white ground...

Which is exactly what the banner looks like to me

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They probably meant white background

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And this looks like a red cross with a white background

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Sure, games like Among Us aren't big enough to deal with it, but a bit more research shows that Halo (a Microsoft IP I believe) removed it from the healing items after the very first game

pliant ruin
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its actually a plus sign not a cross

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its equal on all 4 sides

orchid ember
pliant ruin
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Greek moment

orchid ember
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That's how a Greek Cross is defined

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Basically the same way we'd define a +

cursive wadi
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I hope Red Cross is paying their royalties to the Greeks in that case.

orchid ember
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Then again, you'd have to say that about Switzerland too, their flag displays that same cross

pliant ruin
orchid ember
pliant ruin
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Romans and the Greek should fight

orchid ember
glad barn
pliant ruin
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but then the issue becomes political lol

orchid ember
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I guess I should reiterate the list of acceptable alternatives that the Red Cross provided

cursive wadi
glad barn
orchid ember
glad barn
orchid ember
cursive wadi
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Screw Red Cross, Life Cross is where it's at.

dire estuary
orchid ember
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Which is why I made this entire thread, so KI can update the graphic

dire estuary
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Yeah not surprised

plucky flame
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Y’all realize it’s not exactly a copyright thing its international humanitarian laws concerning wartime and disaster relief efforts to reduce confusion. It’s part of the Geneva Conventions

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Also, Red Cross isn’t lawsuit happy, typically they try to ask for changes, unless ki were to just flat out ignore them on request, they wouldn’t have an issue.

orchid ember
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As in, it isn't a major graphic in the story

drowsy storm
coral tulip
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Artie has now heard of this, saying that if it were an issue, the devs would've been told about it from the copyright owner, but they haven't.

woeful wigeon
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As Flora said, it’s not a copyright issue in the traditional sense

coral tulip
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In that case, I'll have to translate: the cross will be updated once the Geneva Convention discovers it.

orchid ember
orchid ember
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Not that I would know how to go about that or anything, but, well, you know

orchid ember
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I still find it a curiosity though that this isn't the first time KI has had a symbol like this. Wizard101 Central's page on Cycle of Life shows an old animation where it shows a red + symbol as well before it was updated to show a heart symbol https://wiki.wizard101central.com/wiki/File:(Spell_Animation)_Cycle_of_Life.gif. If the Geneva Convention didn't reach out about that, I wonder why that got changed.

pliant ruin
west root
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When wizard101 accidentally commits a war crime

honest knot
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You know, its because of growing up with the Red Plus Sign that i recognize this as the universal sign for "help" or "aid" and I personally feel it is wrong to erase the teaching of this to people. I don't care how the red cross feel about their symbol, it should be the human's symbol.

coral tulip
orchid ember
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It's not just "We provide medical help here", it's also "We provide medical help here regardless of who you are or your situation", including regardless of where you are from, your insurance status, etc.

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It's not just a symbol that means there's medical resources here, but the fact that they are impartial regarding who they administer it to

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Also, keep in mind that the Red Cross symbol has been protected like this for nearly 120 years, this isn't like something new or anything. The only time someone is allowed to use the Red Cross symbol (or anything that could substantially resemble it) is if they are a part of a company or something that has been around since before the protection was put in place (and I think the only exception there was the old Johnson and Johnson logo, which has been around for like 150 years)

kind gulch
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too much overthinking for a small detail in a location we enter for a minute

orchid ember
pliant ruin