I have a multiday PvP suspension for conceding matches

[sweet hornet]

Please KingsIsle this is not how any card or strategy game in the world works. Conceding matches when you can't win is good strategy and saves everyone time. It hurts no one and is a healthy part of strategy games.

[sweet hornet]

I'm realizing now that it's most likely because there's not a separate protocol for team versus single player PvP. I understand that there need to be sanctions for conceding team matches. It's highly unfortunate that it affects single player in this way though because it really is counterintuitive compared to any other strategy game.

[sacred glacier]

This has come up a few times recently. Liahm has also been banned for conceding matches to jades or stream snipers because he doesn’t want to waste time in a match. I’m in full agreement that when my match is essentially unwinnable I should be able to save myself some time and flee. Especially because some players are willing to be toxic once they also realize you can’t win and will sit there and play with you instead of outright killing you. Tbh in the past I’ve sometimes done this as well not to the extreme but I pass a few rounds just to use a spell in my hand to kill that I never get to cast when I could have wand hit the opponent to end the match. Though others will take it to the extreme and make you wait 10+ rounds which is why I’ve decided there’s no reason to keep anyone in a match longer than I have too. Especially in team pvp they will get really out of hand and try to do like 100k damage just to flex. Just you know example #108 on why people are right when they say pvp is toxic

But there is a reason they dont want players fleeing freely and thats because stream snipers will just fish for certain players and flee there match right away to go after their target so thats currently why fleeing throws an infraction on you and can get you queue banned

[river dock]

They just need to make the “concede” button actually be concede and not flee. I want to be able to give up, end the match, stay in the arena, and say GG. Just like every other Concede button

[twilit heart]

Let us concede after an amount of time at least stop making pvp into a job

[sacred glacier]

Exactly!

[lost parcel]

really dude?

[lost parcel]

fleeing is also a component of boosting

[twilit heart]

Its not

if your 20 minutes into a game and the opponent is stalling and you have to leave and you concede you shouldn't be punished

[lost parcel]

i agree - in the meantime, you can just run the clock down.

[worthy lark]

This creates an environment of the presence of boosters make it worse for everyone. I woulf rather let boosters go fully unchecked and have a good experience myself by not being held hostage by the match.

[twilit heart]

why have a concede button if you get banned for using it

[worthy lark]

100%

[twilit heart]

you can just as easily not have the concede button and just log out

[worthy lark]

Not to mention as a player in good standing if it comes down to playing a game that doesnt respect my time and where im held hostage or playing one that respects my time im not picking the one that holds me hostage.

Which in turn leads to the queue being a high % of bad actors

[twilit heart]

thats kinda one of my issues in pvp there are options they allow you to use but you can be banned for doing it like jade life

[sacred glacier]

Logging out would or should also add an infraction, they are the same issue.

[worthy lark]

Neither should add any infraction

*i read your message with a different inflection in my head my bad lol

[twilit heart]

i know i'm just saying theres literally a button that allows you a way out that isnt logging out

[sacred glacier]

if one does the other should but its a hard decision. other streamers say players are fleeing to snipe them. And given that there are discords where this activity has been documented im inclined to believe that people do know what they're doing

[twilit heart]

Why should everyone suffer because of a few twitch crazy fans

trolling will happen no matter what

you can go in there with no resist and just let them win no?

[worthy lark]

Like ima be real, idc about 1-3 pvp streamers I care about 1000 non streamers. If the best solution to making 1-3 players experience better is hurting 1000+ players that is only making it worse for thr streamer as now they are the only ones queueing

[sweet hornet]

Good morning y'all, I'm glad so many people feel similarly to me but disappointed at seeing how complicated the issue really is

I can't imagine sniping is that much of an issue when it comes to conceding because it's impossible to maintain you would rank down below the range to keep matching with the streamer right?

[sacred glacier]

there's also the boosting point so there's a pattern of abuse for the mechanic there at the very least should be more nuance to it

[sweet hornet]

I do think rat beard brought up a big issue with boosting though, because in a game with a pvp player base that's small that's most likely easier

[worthy lark]

Who cares tbh? I would rather play a fun enjoyable game than an unfun game that has slightly mildly high rank integrity

[sweet hornet]

i think this is rather true, vastly improved player experience should outweigh a few people who exploit the system

But it would probably lead to more manual moderation work for KI

[worthy lark]

Like if the queue is that small (which i believe it is) the solution is make it more accessible and fun not tighten down and pusnish good players. Because at the end of the day there are MANY ccgs that respect the player that players who feel slighted by using a basic feature of ccgs (conceeding) can go play instead and each one that does is a high likely hood of sniping happening for those who stick around.

[sweet hornet]

I don't really agree with the sniping issue because that's a thing at high ranks of any game that gets streamed whether you can concede or not

People snipe in Hearthstone arena and duels, because they have the smaller player bases and record based matchmaking are the easiest to snipe with, but as paid entry modes they inherently disincentive conceding, doesn't stop people from sniping though

[worthy lark]

Heck, they could redesign the rank system to make it so your rank cant fall below the threshold (once your a warlord you are a warlord for the season)

That way a streamer can leave a match with nearly no downside.

The small queue and rank system are the problems that are causing normal players to get punished which in turn is creating the small queue.

[sweet hornet]

There is an entire secondary market of accounts being sold just to snipe streamers in Hearthstone arena, but no discussion of banning conceding.

[worthy lark]

In fairness, this is a queue size issue if im sniping krip its 1 in 10k maybe? If im sniping sauce its like 1 in 10

[sacred glacier]

There's also games with worse infraction systems, like the FPS I play will suspend you immediately for an hour or more the first time you leave a ranked match and dont come back to finish it.

[sweet hornet]

That's what I'm saying that's why they do arena it's not 10K if krip is at 11 wins

[sweet hornet]

Team game, its not the same thing

[sacred glacier]

But thats kinda team based, which I did agree with Robyn's point about team pvp there's gonna have to be strict penalties there to prevent players just leaving

[worthy lark]

Ik i have said this in other threads but wiz is not an fps mmo its a ccg mmo.

Additionally fps are a team game so very different

Like conceeding a ccg is a normal thing, not to mention its healthy for all players.

[sweet hornet]

My point is that people find a way to snipe no matter what, and if you wanna snipe a legend player with matchmaking and the number of people online at any given time the pool is not that much more than one out of 10 at the top ranks.

[lost parcel]

Correct - "respecting the players' time" cuts both ways. People will flee Life players on sight, rather than give them a match.

[worthy lark]

I gotcha, the other issue is wiz is designed so sniping is WAYYYY stronger. Not only can you make your deck HARD LOCKOUT your opponent but you can be near un damageable by their hits. Which again is a design issue we are punish players for 😦

[lost parcel]

This is hyperbole.

[worthy lark]

Not at all? Name another ccg where I can make myself 40% resistent to specifically my opponent (assuming best pierce)

[sweet hornet]

Well that may be somewhat true it's also true of what I brought up about arena where people are selling accounts with insane RNG decks ( arena is the draft format) just to snipe streamers

[lost parcel]

@sweet hornet I am not sure how you got a multi-day suspension just from fleeing matches. The penalty accrues quickly and removes quickly.

[sweet hornet]

I'd already received two penalties for missing matches yea, I don't wanna sound like I'm blaming the game but I swear it doesn't always make the noise

[lost parcel]

Your contention is that 60% damage going thru is "nigh un damageable"? Take a break.

[worthy lark]

This is not how ccgs work. Again why would anyone playing pvp go i cant wait to be held hostage since i know I lost. Heck the word CONCEED literally means to surrender.

[sweet hornet]

I'm just saying this as someone who has just picked up PvP it feels like the game doesn't want me to play it. There are so many ways to accidentally get suspended at every turn. It's just a bit irritating I'm sure I will get used to avoiding it.

And going to queue up and seeing the multi day message when I didn't even know conceding wasn't allowed before then was a disappointment

[lost parcel]

We can double check to make sure the messaging is clear, but you should get a popup on the first infraction

[sweet hornet]

Yeah, it's not an information issue on your end, I assumed it didn't extend to conceding matches because I'm used to other games. I'm sure it was in the message.

[lost parcel]

Also if you can delineate the "so many ways" that you are getting suspended, that will help me. Your perspective as a pvp newbie is important.

[sweet hornet]

My first couple of suspensions or because I had discord covering the center of my screen while I was waiting for my match. I mentioned this earlier but I'm not sure if it makes the noise every time but that also could just be me not hearing it so I can't really make any sort of statement about that that's helpful to you

Then once also when I got up to feed my dog during q but at the end of the day that's bad luck/my fault. The long queue times coupled with the punishments for missing matches just make the low ranks feel like a bit of a minefield.

[lost parcel]

no question a healthier queue fixes many of these issues. So it sounds like you had the "go to the arena!" prompt and missed that, and then you wanted to flee a match. So just so you understand our perspective, both of these fall under protecting the integrity of the match and respecting your opponent. Queue when you are ready to queue. Go to your match on time. Play your match.

[sweet hornet]

I think you misunderstand these were separate occurrences

My first two suspensions were for lapsing the go to arena timer bcuz I didn't hear the popup, the only times I fled were near the end of real matches like I would in any other card game. I used the concede button as I would normally near the end of a long match when winning looks impossible.

And while you do have adequate warnings that leaving matches can be penalized, having a button that says concede is kinda counterintuitive because generally concession is a strategy move allowed in games.

Rereading your message it appears you understand that tho. And you are right about the going to arena issue in a slow queue false matches would make it take even longer. It's just a shame that it leads to a scenario where I have to stare at my game waiting for a match for up to 10 minutes because I'm afraid if I open any other tab I'll miss it but if I play the game I might get interrupted.

I disagree with you about fleeing near the end of a match being disrespectful to your opponent. Concession is not rude, it's a normal part of competitive strategy games. The games where the term concede comes from.

[worthy lark]

Tbh im fine with missed match penalties but once your in the match you shouldnt be held hostage

[lost parcel]

I said upstream that I agree that after a certain amount of time, the infraction should not accrue.

[sweet hornet]

ah sry

[lost parcel]

TBH there's a slate of changes we want to make for the next "big" PvP update so we'll review everything.

[worthy lark]

I think this is an interesting point of wiz paralysis when you wait for a match. I Wonder if increasing accept time would make it so you feel good starting something knowing worst case you have time to finish it?

[lost parcel]

It would probably work better for "exiting" a match to just be a 5m queue cooldown, and leave it at that.

[sweet hornet]

Thank you for the responses I'm glad my feedback has been received and I've gained a lot from the conversation as well.

[sweet hornet]

Yeah but that would lead to waiting forever for my opponent to accept something I've already experienced, honestly my mind's been changed about the queue issue

[worthy lark]

Why? Why noy as you said not punish you for leaving after x rounds?

[worthy lark]

It would depend on what is the average time to accept for example

[sweet hornet]

The only thing I'd note is that a lot of other games with similar Q systems give themselves priority when you find a match. For instance League of Legends always jumps to the top of the screen no matter what window you're on. I don't know how hard that is to do.

[worthy lark]

Just spitballing but my gut says this would lead to a lot of "alt tab" or just steping away from pc? When you gotta go you gotta go.

[lost parcel]

I've explained all the "why" this morning

do not use "why" to register a difference of opinion

[worthy lark]

Im confused how we went from this to that take ig?

Its not why difference of opinion its why as in you posted 2 conflicting ones and im wondering what the reason for doing the other would be?

[lost parcel]

there's no conflict - it's a progression of leniency. I can explain how conversations work later

[worthy lark]

Really? I was asking a legitimate question

[rough wharf]

Piggy backing this to say Ive actively avoided pvp and this is one of the reasons , ik the queues are long and I know you get punished for missing a Q but I don’t want to sit and stare for however long to make sure I don’t miss it. Teamup has a similar issue where you dont actually get a notification for loading into a dungeon after finding a team - some of the team up queues get very very long which prompts people to tab out while they wait. Maybe we should make it a separate suggestion for ease of discussion though

[sacred glacier]

just gonna start deleting unhelpful comments in forums. The topic is very clearly stated at the top and the discussion easy to follow. If your comment is just complaining and not furthering the conversation it doesnt need to be posted here

[lost parcel]

extremely long queue times are an argument in favor of penalties for failing to go to arena and for insta-fleeing matches. nobody wants to wait 10 minutes for a match, only to have the matched opponent fail to go to the arena and they get sent back into q again.

I will ask tech about the feasibility of having the prompt window grab focus, that is a good suggestion

[worthy lark]

If it wasnt clear I would be fine with a first round or two having a penalty but fleeing on round 8 or 9 when your dead on board and all out of counters is where I have a problem.