Bring back dungeons.

[fast widget]

Where did dungeons like Tartarus or darkmoor go? I remember dragonspyre had a few and I honestly think that’s what made wizard101 so fun back in the day. It’s sad to see the past several worlds essentially have the same fights. I know challenge mode can fix that but it’s not like dungeons. Gauntlets are not line dungeons. Raids are not like dungeons. These recent worlds have a few unique boss fights but we’re missing what I believe is to be a core part of the game; dungeons. I’m talking about hour+ 4 man fighting with several difficult and unique boss fights with some optional side ones as well. Dungeons that had amazing visuals like Tartarus. Dungeons that have gear that everybody wanted and didn’t need to replace several months later. Dungeons with puzzles to solve. Dungeons with a great story. Dungeons that needs teamwork. Raids just proves that dungeons can still be as great as they were in the past, but raids are guild exclusive, timed 12 man sessions. Gauntlets are just mob mob boss rinse and repeat fights. Bring back dungeons!

[scenic lodge]

Yeah I would love to see 4 person dungeons come back as side content. The 4 dungeons that we got a while back is some of my favorite wiz content to date and haven't seen anything as cool since.

In each new world we see some really amazing bosses with unique designs but are lazily put behind an instance with no prior fights or have some of the most boring prior fights. Its this exact rinse and repeat which makes questing feel like a drag because there's no differentiation between each instance. It all feels the same.

I'm sure a large majority of the playerbase would greatly appreciate a really intense dungeon that isn't locked behind guilds and doesn't have difficulty set behind a "timer". Even if it was a long dungeon for a final boss that only dropped decks but were (arguably) the best decks in the game, people would farm the heck out of it.

Raids almost hit the mark here but are just way too much of a drag to the common player-base to fill that void. Devs could easily make a dungeon with re-used assets, re-used mobs, re-used puzzles (from raids or other), but throw in unique cheats and give niche rewards that largely fit the playerbase and it would bring a lot of life back into the PvE scene IMO.

Theres also plenty of things that devs could do to add these back but with a twist, maybe make them limited to 2 players, make each player do a solo fight before they group together for the final fight, or disable pets, etc.

I think the current PvE content for the casual players (basically all main quests) is lacking as you're meant to quest through and then farm x, y, and z bosses for your gear and you're done. The "dungeons" that we do have in Novus for example are incredibly boring. Dasein Duelist is the only "dungeon" I can really think of and its a copy and paste layout, 2 really boring mob fights, and a boss with some of the most boring cheats possible designed in a terrible way.

Raids are great for what they're meant to be, but complement of that player base gets nothing in that range and its really unfair to see them "disregarded" almost.

[hard robin]

our dev team is meeting right now about this topic, this was weird timing

[scenic lodge]

😻 godspeed

[hard robin]

do you think that because a new template comes out every 4 months, that you are expected to want/get it?

[scenic lodge]

no

[glacial latch]

Question for ya, do you see dungeons at that level of difficulty as a standard experience or an advanced experience?

[split adder]

it just so happens it becomes meta for pvp at the time of the release

[hard robin]

does it though? every time?

[split adder]

every time? no, recently? yes. Specifically the pack gear

[fast widget]

Players can be selfish. Comparison is the thief of happiness. Players who put a lot of time to farm for a gear, for it to then be the “2nd” best for a specific setup they have like PvE or PvP undermines their efforts

[hard robin]

a streak of 1?

[scenic lodge]

Its in-between. I would say that PvE questline is pretty basic, even when I was in 3rd grade questing through Celestia I didn't struggle. I vividly remember doing Briskbreeze Tower with my IRL friends when we were all level 50 and loving every minute of it because bosses were difficult but you also had freedom to try what you wanted (aka not restricted to what roshambo rules are now).

So if we get new dungeons, they should not be advanced content, but a level above the standard experience I believe. The level above should be added through unique gimmicks and not just stacking cheats upon cheats. Puzzles or visible restrictions within the dungeon could be this

[stiff heron]

I miss how it felt being inside Malistaire's dungeon for the first time. I was imagining Morganthe or any other big boss in the game would fit to have their own big dungeon for 4 people with a sigil, but big/complex to some degree.

[split adder]

Tomb of the Beguiler solo, Kembaalung solo, Mount Olympus solo

i like soloing stuff

[crimson badge]

i did all of those solo aswell, i miss that feeling

[fast widget]

Dungeons have been a standard experience in the past and people didn’t necessarily think too much of it. Now I believe it can be labeled as advanced because dungeons should not cave into the 7 card deck setup. I think PvE over the past years has been increasingly getting easier that people have different set of expectations for hard content.

[split adder]

soloing stuff is a lot of fun and we dont get a lot of options to do that nowadays, i get its an mmo but still

[crimson badge]

i agree, i love soloing stuff. and my least favorite is the helephant tower dungeon, its not fun tbh lol

[split adder]

could give us the raids but without a time limit and see how long it takes to solo it

[glacial latch]

The original thread was about a 4 player dungeon, do you disagree?

[split adder]

Its fun to solo stuff designed for 4 (casual) people

[quiet canyon]

Both, all arc 1 worlds had dungeons in their main questline, and these very dungeons remain in those quest lines. Arc 2 continues the trend heavily in celestia, ends zafaria with two dungeons (notoriously one with the drums puzzle), Avalon has 2 big ones, and after that the dungeons started to disappear from main questline.

[scenic lodge]

I think part of this is that its a story based dungeon. To get to malistaire you need to defeat his minions, use the cool elevator and then charge up the crystals and fix the bridge and such.

Kensington Park was also story based in a way where you have to defeat bosses to get parts to fix the clockwork assistant.

Recent "dungeons" like Dasein Duelist are simply unexplained waves of enemies into a boss with annoying cheats.

[glacial latch]

Dungeons of this calibur may be detached from mainline, so it could probably go either way.

[glacial latch]

So would you say story is essential to the dungeon experience?

[scenic lodge]

For sake I'd call these "open world" dungeons, how malisaire's lair is an ENTIRE zone, kensington park is an ENTIRE zone; although re-used assets WHO CARES its so much more of an experience compared to "walk 5 feet and fight enemies that exist for zero reason and then walk another 10 feet to fight the boss"

note: this 1 minute cooldown on sending messages is annoying btw

[quiet canyon]

I would not call ‘3 fight instances’ dungeons, they litter arc 3 and 4 they are simply that an instance. Duelist is really just a boss fight inflated by pointless mobs

[split adder]

Nidavellir was another crazy cool dungeon back in the day

[gaunt hedge]

What are your opinions on the Galleries?

[split adder]

I’ve heard its boring to farm, it was kinda meh my first playthrough

[gaunt hedge]

Its story based boss combats- but from my experience players hate it- so curious what the difference is

[scenic lodge]

I totally think so. There should be a goal in between each combat if possible. Also the zone its in should be explorable and preferably have secrets.

The gator housing dungeon was cool cause the zone was unique, the bosses were unique, and it was fun; but it lost a lot of brownie points because it was: fight -> dialogue -> fight -> dialogue -> fight -> dialogue -> fight -> dialogue -> fight -> dialogue -> fight

Marleybone honestly slayed with some of the best dungeons which is why its my favorite world. Even boring dungeons like Big Ben are fun because the zeke cat is there, there are puzzles in the middle of each fight that you need to take note of in between each floor, not to the mention spilling the milk like thats so engaging.

Ironworks is amazing, running around and getting passwords.
Kensington Park is amazing fighting all these forced 3 enemy fights and getting parts to fix a guy (also not to mention the exclusive housing items that brings housing decorators back each year to farm it)
Katzenstein's Lab with the chimenys in the middle of it, fighting bosses for passwords, and OF COURSE: smogger is so awesome with unique insignia gear

[glacial latch]

(asked Sparck to lower the cooldown)

There's also a difference between how much of the interest in these dungeons is farming reasons for items vs interest for story/puzzles/etc.

[scenic lodge]

These dungeons also have everlasting rewards that affect your wizard down the line, stitch gear, housing items, badges, etc. These dungeons are worth going through again, even 10+? years after releasing.

[scenic lodge]

I think its that dungeons should have something worth farming, but story/puzzles/experience is what gives it life and doesn't make it "boring" or "annoying" to run through again and again.

[fast widget]

Should always be a mix. Players interested in the storylines and players interested in the gear should both be incentivized to go through the dungeon. I honestly think the story can tie into the puzzle aspect of a dungeon. Maybe some key words or phrases they say can aid into the dungeon? I think there’s a lot of new modern ideas you can put into a dungeon now that can make them even cooler than before

[glacial latch]

Does a puzzle not get old after the first time because you know the answer? If you're farming, wouldn't it just be a hurdle to get past?

[scenic lodge]

Waterworks for example is a really cool dungeon that I could farm a hundred times over. The zone is unique (underwater + in a new zone). It is fight after fight but you're trying to fix the valve and thats the goal you're after. You also get 2 puzzles in the middle of it + a very unique boss in the middle that breaks apart the fight after fight.

[split adder]

allows us to do something other than frenzy aoe, i lowkey like them cause you can coordinate the fastest way to do it with your friends

running around doing the clams in waterworks is enjoyable with friends

[scenic lodge]

For example, puzzles with patterns in Marleybone are in fact repetitive but I've never memorized them and every time I do Big Ben or Katzenstein's Lab I always have to do it mid-dungeon.

Like I just said for Waterworks, those puzzles are random for the most part, the worm thing that you have to follow is random and I think the blue/yellow clams are also random.

[fast widget]

Puzzles aren’t necessarily a hurdle. Dungeons shouldn’t be made specially for people who farm. I think first time players should have a puzzle just for the benefit of making the dungeon more fun to go through

[glacial latch]

Yeah hear y'all on the interest in story and puzzles on a first run. Just wanted to dig in more on how these aspects apply with replayability, and if it could be an incentive to rerun even if hypothetically there were no rewards to farm.

[past raven]

Could you not ask does combat not get old because you know ‘the answer’ is blade blade AoE? There is value in diversifying the tasks in my opinion

[quiet canyon]

The waterworks puzzles and the Tower of the Helephant puzzles never really annoyed me despite running both dungeons 100s of times a decade ago. Tbh I thought it was always fun to chase the fish around in that puzzle and swimming after it. But also if the puzzle is designed around the story, wouldnt it feel essential during replays?

[split adder]

I still do Tower of the Helephant on all my wizards just cause its fun and challenging, even if the rewards suck

[glacial latch]

In that case I was comparing it to the farming goal of the combats

[teal mauve]

It does get old. People who are saying it doesnt have simulator mindsets lol where they are robotic.

[fast widget]

It can get “old” but it literally doesn’t make me hate the dungeon

[past raven]

If your end goal is “I want the gear”, then anything and everything is a hurdle in your way.

[quiet canyon]

It also depends on what the puzzle is. In waterworks and tower of the helephant the puzzle grants health, if you fail the puzzle you have an extra fight. So does it feel annoying to skip a fight?

[scenic lodge]

At the end of the day, I would prefer:

• dialogue -> fight -> puzzle -> fight -> puzzle -> puzzle -> boss
  over
• fight -> fight -> boss

even if it takes longer to do each run, more life and a story really adds a lot to each run

[acoustic sierra]

Yeah, the first case is what we're doing

[umbral scaffold]

It would be enough to bring back dungeons by adding level-scaled challenge modes to existing dungeons with relevant rewards. I think many people would like that even if no “new” dungeons were created for a while

[scenic lodge]

Highkey yes, if we are in fact going to get new dungeons, please make them ban the use of potions but add ways to get health in the dungeon. Might be controversial to say but that would instantly add a ton of replayabilitity/difficulty. I 100% believe potions are OP in this game and take away a lot from what was meant to be a difficult dungeon.

[fast widget]

Yeah and get rid of the flee and join back before timer ends

[umbral scaffold]

I think lots of people like dungeons because they’re hard at the appropriate level. It’s a real challenge that’s accessible by most of the player base (because even if you don’t have 3 friends online, you can just team up). That difficulty isn’t easily found elsewhere

[quiet canyon]

Basically Deckathalonize dungeons?

[split adder]

killing minions then recalling to solo fight the boss is also cheese

[fast widget]

Yes but less rng, deckathalon has a lot of rng at play (sometimes I die round 1 to double efreet)

[umbral scaffold]

Also hot take, Dungeon recall shouldn’t work for challenge mode dungeons

[quiet canyon]

that does make them significantly harder, which I would say wouldnt be a main quest line thing. Tbh I'm under the assumption the main reason designers stopped putting dungeons in arc 3 and 4 worlds was because they didnt want a 'goal' to take more than 30 minutes... tbh if i look back far enough thats probably in a mattnetic tweet somewhere 😛

[fast widget]

Yeah but wasn’t that during a time where mattnetic nerfed every mob’s health 20% because of shadow nerf backlash (could be wrong)

[umbral scaffold]

I personally did like the earlier worlds where instead of clearing a street in an hour it was all concentrated in one dungeon, but even if that’s not a design goal, I think everyone wants Aquila style dungeons back

[quiet canyon]

that doesnt really have anything to do with dungeons though and mattnetic I think was a big part in world design starting with polaris, the shadow spell nerfs were 3 years ago lol

[fast widget]

What my point was is that I believe devs did want to make the experience of wizard101 to be easier for casuals

Dungeons are not easy, which is why I believe it wasn’t brought back for the newer worlds

[quiet canyon]

yea like a lot of the Side Content dungeons we've mentioned could take 2-3 hours when they first released and we fought them with level equivalent gear and I dont see that being forced upon casual players

[umbral scaffold]

Isn’t it better for casuals to have a little bit of challenge to keep things exciting than the same old blade blade aoe? Do people quest because they want to fall asleep?

[quiet canyon]

But the dungeons in arc one worlds dont take that long

[teal mauve]

Your perspective and someone who doesnt want to waste their time in something that has nothing to do with the storyline are 2 different things

[scenic lodge]

I could 100% see a new aquila dungeon coming out with stats scaled to level 100 or something with no potions, no recall, puzzles, and more. I only say scaled to 100 cause the stats jump does make everything way easier

[quiet canyon]

so there's room for both I think, but to Ben's comment about aquila sized dungeons, thats not a dungeon i would be pushing to be in main questline

[umbral scaffold]

Yeah, there’s a difference between the hour long storyline dungeons and Proto-“advanced combat” of aquila etc

[fast widget]

I think it has to do with the lack of training. You put people who are so used to blade feint into aoe to try something new and you get a lot of confusion. Many players still don’t understand roshambos or gambits or the symbols some new spells have. You also have people strictly in it for the lore and not the gear/fights

[umbral scaffold]

Though we should normalize the final dungeon of a world being like 90 minutes long. It was always a grand way to finish off a world, and gives it a weight that doesn’t really happen when it’s just the final boss. Even empyrea part 2 did this a bit, but we haven’t seen it since

[fast widget]

By main quest line you don’t mean the Aquila type of main quest line right? Because they are considered one as well but it’s not like a requirement for the new worlds

[umbral scaffold]

Yeah, I would not want casuals to have to engage in roshambo to advance their quests. But when people say “bring back dungeons” there’s the casual, 30-60 minute instance quest (Katzenstein’s Lab), which would be “classic mode” content, and then there’s Darkmoor, which would have “advanced combat” rules today even if it didn’t explicitly require the use of Roshambo spells. I would like to see both

[scenic lodge]

Just bringing this message up cause I think its another good example of puzzles. The braziers and tablets in Krok were really cool puzzles that I never got tired of, like "making the room suitable for a storm" is such a cool concept and it makes me smile every time I have to do it.

Could maybe do something like this for a future dungeon where the players have an option to summon 1 of 3 elemental bosses in order to progress. Or make the puzzles completely randomized each time you do it so its never consistent. Small things like that would bring a lot of life to each run of a dungeon.

[umbral scaffold]

Random puzzles would be really interesting and add to the experience, since you would know the method of solving but not exactly what to click (such that you could just look up the answer)

[glacial latch]

Thank you all for the feedback, I need to go to lunch right now but I'll hop back in to read more of the discussion later!

[scenic lodge]

Also one more thing I would really like the devs to hear: Make bosses randomized. If there was for example a new dungeon with a secret boss towards the end that was 90% of the time some random guy with moderate drops but 10% of the time a secret guy that dropped mounts or spells even, people would die for that I'm sure.

Or make it 50% of the time a death boss that drops athames and 50% of the time a storm boss that drops rings. As long as its a 100% guarantee of something, players would appreciate it.

Anything like that would be amazing. Metalossus is the only example I can think of like it and even then it was cool although some aspects of it could be better.

[quiet canyon]

aquila is completely side quest content

[bitter tusk]

Mini Raid 👀

[quiet canyon]

some of the old dungeons do feel like mini raids if you think about it

[fast widget]

Yeah I think it’s considered a storyline quest or something idk it got the stars on it

[quiet canyon]

Like the Mooshu Temple one

[bitter tusk]

Yeah I was thinking about some of the puzzle-based dungeons from Krokotopia/MooShu + incorporating Advanced rules on top of them

[scenic lodge]

Universally interactbale bosses are also a cool concept we could see come back. We sort of saw it with the pre-requisite quest for the azteca raid. I could be mistaken but I think there are some bosses in Hall of Valor that don't show up if they were killed recently in other dungeons by any player online. Would need a fact check but being able to affect someone else's dungeon run in a positive way without being in it is really cool.

[umbral scaffold]

Advanced content dungeons should feel like mini raids. The most important things being that there’s no time limit, so players can always complete it, however inefficiently, and that it’s rewarding enough for players to actually engage with the content, even if the same loot can be gotten elsewhere

[quiet canyon]

timed dungeons...

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/389266925185662986/1126614071823827165/3dgifmaker23067.gif

dont even put those words into existence

[bitter tusk]

15 minute time limit on the next 4-person dungeon

[scenic lodge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/389266925185662986/1117238976189833366/ezgif.com-video-to-gif_1.gif

[gaunt elbow]

honestly dungeons are what make arc 1 so much fun to play through, you just have these super huge areas to navigate through and there were even hidden bosses in them sometimes that you could spawn by doing a puzzle like knocking over the milk bottles in big ben or raising the banners in that one mooshu dungeon to make a secret boss spawn, the bosses were also difficult with a high hp pool and high rank spells which made them a pleasure to fight alongside having unique gear for stitching

[zenith spoke]

If I had to add my 2 cents, Mirror Lake is perhaps the top 5 dungeons in the game. Rewarding drops, decent cheats so its a little challenging, people still go back at max

[scenic lodge]

Adding mega snacks to any dungeon even if it was 1x per run would be incredible and would instantly develop its entire own culture for farming

[zenith spoke]

I'm also a fan of "open space" dungeons

[quiet canyon]

gear is not the only incentive players chase

Actually iirc mirror lake is a really good example because it didnt have meta gear in it. Pet snacks were a big incentive to run it as well as at the time dungeons were regarded as the place to farm crowns gear. A lot of crowns sets were put int he mirror lake drop table, the gear wasnt better than waterworks, but I believe it did have a nice stitch look to it.

[zenith spoke]

elegent gear my beloved

[quiet canyon]

Waterworks and Tower of the Helephant (dungeons released the year before) dropped mastery amulets that had previously been locked to the crowns shop as well as mega snacks too so they were good places just to farm gold as well even though they took more time

like a full run of tower of the helephant could net 50k gold an amulet and the meta ring/athame of the time

[acoustic sierra]

Timed experiences are not just to manage difficulty

[stiff heron]

Yeah, I'd like to see more story based dungeons that feel very dangerous/serious.

[scenic lodge]

On the topic of crowns gear, these sets and wands that get added to the crown shop for each world are really cool items but very expensive, would be great to see these dropped in dungeons for their retrospective worlds.

For casual players it would be a helpful leg-up when preparing new gear to quest, and for advanced players who don't need it for stats could use it for stitch gear or just as a collectible item

-of course make it as rare as you want, but anything with a "chance" is worth farming for some players. I'd farm Judge Veg a hundred+ times if he dropped the Veggie Missile just to use it in an energy stitch.

[gaunt elbow]

with all due respect I really don't want any timed dungeons after seeing the azteca raid

[merry schooner]

Timed experiences are not fun expecially since it'll most likely be made into advanced combat stuff which by itself isnt fun because for somereason its tied to pvp rules but in a pve setting...

[gaunt elbow]

advanced combat is fun though

[acoustic sierra]

You don't have to play the advanced/timed dungeons. We are planning a standard version which should not be timed, so play that one.

[pulsar spruce]

I think their issue is they don't want a timed enviornment at all, but they still want content that transcends the current standard mode metagame of "blade blade aoe," or "mass feint backdraft scald incind."

[acoustic sierra]

Sure, I understand they don't like the timer.

[quiet canyon]

I dont understand why advanced versions of hard mode or dungeons would be timed when the difficulty request comes from players wanting more of the same type of content we've already seen in earlier versions of the game scaled up to max level

but that content is no longer deemed 'good' for main content

[acoustic sierra]

Ok I don't understand your comment.

I'm at the gym, limited time, so forgive me if responses are short.

[teal mauve]

Why are you on discord while at the gym 😭 buddy you should be repping not typing. Get moving. Better see those gains 💪

[quiet canyon]

Lets take tower of the helephant as an example. When it was introduced at level 60 it was a dungeon that could take 2-3 hours via teaming up with randoms. For me personally I would like to see more content like this dungeon, like Waterworks (which is very close to the same set up) Darkmoor, Aquila, House of Scales, etc. If those dungeons thrived without a timer but would currently not be good dungeons to introduce to standard players, casual players, mainline story players, why would a timer need to be added on future content of a similar nature

[acoustic sierra]

Hahahah...no kidding, gotta keep my heart rate over 130

Would you consider 1-2 hr dungeon as casual? Do you consider wiz a casual MMO?

[pulsar spruce]

Yes to both, though it can be hard to see it's intended to be a casual mmo at times

[quiet canyon]

1 hour I would consider casual, 2 hours i would not. I do not think there are two hour dungeons in main line, and the complaint for more difficult content comes with the understanding that it would not be for casual players as the casual players arent the ones asking for it

[acoustic sierra]

I would say a 45 min dungeon which requires 4 people in advanced would take much longer to solo in standard.

[quiet canyon]

So challenge mode has to continue to be handicapped for the sake of casual players?

[acoustic sierra]

Aspects of the game applies indirect pressure on everyone, which is why we are trying to avoid locking highest power gear behind guilds or raids or advanced.

[teal mauve]

I want full on game story dungeons that last 14 hours artie. You got this make every boss have 1m+ health, 200 damage, 70 pierce, 100 resist, shads that hit like a truck, heals that heal like an angel. And their minions being half the amount! Let god be with us all!

[acoustic sierra]

Sure, consider the drop rate complaint, which we are on par with WoW. It works for them, but doesn't work for us.

Because we are intended to be a more casual MMO. The timer absolutely influences difficulty without a doubt. Then it also allows play sessions to be more predictable for those who need it.

It is definitely harder with a timer than without.

[placid canopy]

I heavily disagree with timed experiences in a Cinematic Card Game.

It seems like you're implying the purpose of timed experiences is to limit the maximum amount of time a dungeon can take, but we can enforce upon ourselves how much time we're willing to spend on a dungeon.

Timed experiences end up throwing away our time investment if we happen to use a slower strategy, if the time limit is an hour then you walk away with nothing if you needed 5 extra minutes to win after investing an hour.

[acoustic sierra]

Is playing standard not an option?

[placid canopy]

Its not an option if you want to experience more challenging content

[umbral scaffold]

A play session is predictable when people run in with the optimal strategy, and it’s a truly difficult, long, challenge for people who don’t play optimally. Darkmoor was the perfect example of this, where people could run it in one hour or three

[quiet canyon]

but that doesnt have to be the case. There are other ways to make difficult content and this is proven repeatedly in the game by existing bosses and dungeons that have already been created. And for those of us who want difficult content, who have been put on the backburner the past few years since about Empyrea pt 2, we simply want what wiz has already created, just new content. It doesnt have to be dramatically different

[teal mauve]

that the point? lol

[acoustic sierra]

Actually let me clarify what we are discussing as standard vs advanced. It means use all the cards you want and no timer. Mobs and bosses and puzzles are the same.

[pliant drum]

Playing standard just because we dislike ONE thing about advanced combat is frankly ridiculous

[umbral scaffold]

A timer just removes the pick-up-game aspect from the dungeon. It forces people into those optimal runs with scheduled groups and boxes out all the people who might run it more casually

[acoustic sierra]

It feels like a bad faith argument to not acknowledge that the timer adds difficulty, which I find important, which is resource allocation and non combat related strategies.

[pliant drum]

So you're saying make a timed mode and a nontimed mode but still allow adv. combat spells and keep mobs/bosses/puzzles the same?

Is that really standard mode then, or are you introducing a 3rd "nontimed mode"

[gaunt elbow]

will said dungeons still have advanced combat rules in them with increased mob difficulty?

[pulsar spruce]

i remember spending hours in darkmoor before it all got nerfed i can't imagine throwing a timer in it

[teal mauve]

Its the same people who complain everytime. I think its perfectly a fine mechanic lol.

[split adder]

an option to solo the raids without a time limit would be cool for like a "is it possible" sort of thing

[umbral scaffold]

I want to run a difficult, level scaled dungeon using an advanced rule set in exchange for better drops (again, doesn’t have to be unique, just more rewarding), and without the pressure of a timer as in a raid

[wise zodiac]

I feel like it’s a bad faith argument to dismiss those that just want no timer with harder combat and telling us to just go play standard mode

[pulsar spruce]

timer makes sense in the raid i'm not going to argue for or against that there's a legitimate sense of urgency there

but dungeons? not convinced

[pliant drum]

dungeons should not have a timer imo.

[wise zodiac]

Tbh even without a timer people will just end up finding the fastest strategies to do these instances anyway

[teal mauve]

L take. ✅

[pliant drum]

The timer just needlessly gatekeeps the content.

Either way you're going to see players optimizing to get the most out of their time, whether it has a timer or not.

So why time it and restrict the content from the people who can't complete it in that amount of time?

Advanced mode is just turning into speedrun mode. And it's not enjoyable for a lot of people.

[placid canopy]

Why can't it just be a turn limit?

Why does it have to be a real time counter in a game that has a big focus on cinematics?

[umbral scaffold]

A timer does add difficulty, but it adds difficulty in the wrong way. Timers force optimal play, as opposed to simply engaging with content that is more challenging than blade-blade-aoe. There is design space for a difficult boss that can be completed by most people (at the cost of time) and optimally farmed by the people who want to do so (and saving time). Yes, it’s more difficult, but who gets boxed out? Anyone who is slightly more casual than the most hardcore of players

[acoustic sierra]

In this case, standard means using advanced banned spells and no timer. If you want a more advanced experience then don't pack banned spells?

[pliant drum]

Does standard allow the advanced-only spells though? My guess is no

[umbral scaffold]

But I’m not rewarded for doing so? Why would I engage with it like that?

[pulsar spruce]

would the only difference be the use of a timer and a different banlist?

[teal mauve]

You guys realize with no timers its no longer difficult because you dont have to worry about rushing anything. Incase you know that flows over the mind. (Here comes the same 6 people gonna tell me something that incorrect)

[gaunt elbow]

I would like to use the advanced spells like gambits and such in a non timer dungeon so that I can relax and have fun finding silly combos without the worry of auto losing because a timer says so

[pliant drum]

I'd rather enjoy the game instead of rushing like it's a speedrun minigame

[steel linden]

yet the game was arguably more difficult in an era where no timer existed

[placid canopy]

Arguing that you can't make a strategy game difficult without a time limit is very silly.

[umbral scaffold]

That’s just not true. No timer simply means that the dungeon will be completed at some point. Is finishing a 3 hour dungeon, with the last fight taking 2 of those hours, not difficult enough? Or does there have to be a one hour timer on it to force people to play optimally?

[wise zodiac]

Yup tower of helephant and brisk breeze were much harder at the game’s max level at the time lol

[quiet canyon]

I would also note that side content has always been a bit harder than the casual experience so if the immediate reaction to creating new challenging content is to also somehow include the casual player base then I feel like that drastically misses the mark. Aquila, Darkmoor, Wysteria, Catacombs are all regarded as 'side worlds' or the equivalent to a world release. But they were always harder, SIGNIFICANTLY HARDER because they were side content. I'm not saying the content shouldnt have a standard mode, but if the sole purpose of standard mode is to let these players simply experience the content, hear the story, then there's no reason for it to relate in any capacity what the hard mode version does as your example suggested a 45 minute hard mode dungeon designed for 4 players should some how translate well to a solo player doing the easier version. I would say that shouldnt be the case, why is solo game play being compared to an encounter designed for 4 people? Should it not be designed for a casual group of 4 instead?

[teal mauve]

Anyone noticing the same 6 people always talking when something broken lol. Anyways no yall are just wrong in so many ways. But its ok. Difficulty is something wizard101 community tends to struggle with anyways.

[steel linden]

are you going to make a legitimate point or are you just going to spew a fallacy every other comment

[teal mauve]

I made my point just was ignored scroll up and see.

[gaunt elbow]

you weren't ignored and opted to start being silly

[umbral scaffold]

The difficult from raids doesn’t come from the cheats, or any individual fight, but the fact that you have to pick all your cards quickly and know exactly what to do at any given time. The difficulty from old dungeons and side worlds came from actually having harder bosses to fight. No timer just ensured that they would be completed

[pliant drum]

Yeah you were definitely ignored when we all sent responses disagreeing

[quiet canyon]

This is just false. I could set a round limit and on round 2 the boss can use a -100% health aoe on the players. Boom no timer, severely difficult, you have 2 rounds to kill a boss.

[pulsar spruce]

the timer in the raids did increase skill ceiling i won't deny that, but time and place is important

[acoustic sierra]

Well, I'm sure we will continue to debate this internally and externally. And eventually we'd like all advanced spells to be usable in standard, but have concerns with some of the current cheating bosses. In any case, given the topic of the thread, yes we are planning to make 4 person dungeons.

[pliant drum]

Nullity was a great example of good design. You WILL die if you don't kill fast enough or counter what you need to counter.

Even if the dragonspyre raid had unlimited time, that fight still wont take longer than 10 minutes.

[vital burrow]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think turn limits are a much better way to approach this than timer limits, especially with how there is no fast combat and DoTs and HoTs stacking takes so long to tick. It would greatly benefit defensive schools if their slower playstyles weren't doubly punishing and certain gambits weren't more "punishing" to use because of raw time constraints despite taking the same amount of turns and buffing to set up.

[pulsar spruce]

yea going past more than 2-3 cycles even if u were countering just wasn't optimal

[umbral scaffold]

No timer actually makes it easier to make bosses harder because you don’t have to worry about players always hitting the optimal round markers in order to progress—you can make them cheat in more difficult ways, or make their health pools bigger, and people might actually enjoy it more

[wise zodiac]

I think having a wipe mechanic is a better option than doing a timer. It’s typically what other mmorpgs do. Both final bosses in each raid have this tbf.

[pliant drum]

Hunhau is an example of great design. You WILL die if you don't counter enough, because he will literally oneshot your entire team

Even the priest(esse)s have their own cheat cycles that will kill you if you don't counter or kill fast enough.

So then why does the AZ raid need a timer? What if there was a timer on Cacao pods like there was on power stars? What about fish as well? Then there's no need for an overall timer for the raid

[gaunt elbow]

I just really hate the timer mechanic because it also just incentivises nothing but hitting schools which is a bruh moment for anyone else that doesn't have one

[teal mauve]

Im not understanding the argument here. You guys are complaining about the timer during the entire dungeon but your solution is to have match based timers? That just makes 0 sense. @gaunt elbow I swear if you react one more time

[quiet canyon]

I could list hundreds of bosses currently in game that could be retro actively implemented in raids or hard mode dungeons that would be severely difficult, provide interesting gameplay and dont at all require a timer.

[placid canopy]

The raid would need to be heavily redone if the timer was removed because a lot of raid difficulty comes from the timer. I would never argue to remove the timer from the existing raids, but would point out that the timer does exclude certain classes from the raids.

[pliant drum]

There's a reason the raid meta is literally just mono offschool the 3 highest dmg schools on an offschool to avoid chromatic debuffs

It's because the timer pushes you to minmax damage instead of to minmax strategy.

[wise zodiac]

No we are talking about a wipe mechanic. That if you failed to do something in a fight it would end the instance anyway because your entire group just straight up wiped

[umbral scaffold]

The only thing a timer does is ensure that completion is not ensured. Does that make it more difficult? Yes. But is that a good way to make it more difficult, in every case? Probably not. Just feels bad when you lose

[vital burrow]

Raw time is different from turn counts and both of those are different from Wipe Mechanics (punishing you for not/doing something)

[pulsar spruce]

i'll be honest when people were consistently clearing void runs with like 10+ min remaining it does make you ask what the timer does lol

[pliant drum]

A timer on the raid itself is punishing you for not minmaxing damage/offense

A "turn timer" on battles is punishing you for not countering a certain condition

[teal mauve]

You realize that just makes everything outside of combat not difficult whatsoever. You can basically get a snack and come back while everyone else is fighting?

[pulsar spruce]

the timer does not prevent you from not doing that already what prevents this from happening is making outside content always requiring active people lol

[umbral scaffold]

How many people actually feel accomplished when they finish a raid on time, vs finishing darkmoor at some time, ever

[placid canopy]

We haven't even mentioned how a time limit in Wizard101 is EXTREMELY PUNISHING compared to other games.

ONE extra round in Wizard101 can legitimately cost you several minutes, which is why I really do not believe time trial mechanics belong in this game.

[quiet canyon]

Like look at the Abyss boss that was designed in Novus as a side quest. Who designed that boss? because thats exactly what we should be seeing in hard mode content. It requires you to be beguiled by the boss and heal it to kill it. Do you know how far removed that has to be from the casual player? And yet its a solid idea a great way to both encourage school diversity, but also make one of the weaker hitting schools a center piece for the fight.

[gaunt elbow]

yea it is absurd

[teal mauve]

Im not saying that for this raid im saying that for any future raid or dungeon 🤦‍♂️

[pliant drum]

So then read what I said about cacao and fish?

There are other ways to time the objectives in a way that creates tension but not for you to wipe the entire raid for no reason

For example, if they gave Cacao Pods and Fish Heads a timer like Power Stars, people would still have to be optimal on outside puzzles but they wouldn't literally lose the raid for just taking a tiny bit too much time.

[wise zodiac]

Tbh just look at any of the lemuria side quest bosses for a good idea for bosses. Most of those you aren’t doing solo unless you’re like death lol

[umbral scaffold]

Yeah, it’s not like design space for hard bosses doesn’t exist. But in a timer world, we can’t have any of those actually in because a timer would be too punishing

[vital burrow]

Side content in this game has a huge amount of variety and depth. You could pull Drowned Dan, Lady Stonegaze, etc etc and they're all puzzle-esque, as opposed to "do the funny gambit that you already know which one will be required because it will always be the same"

[pliant drum]

I miss fun fights like Darkmoor Malistaire.

But that would never fit in a timer so they're never doing anything like that again.

[wise zodiac]

I definitely feel like there hasn’t been any fight that I actually enjoyed doing since darkmoor lol.

[teal mauve]

Well isnt that just opinions 😭 like what you think is not what everyone else thinks

[pulsar spruce]

Drowned Dan with a timer!

[umbral scaffold]

I really really enjoy how advanced combat has turned into “blade blade hit, but this time if you pick the wrong card we lose,” which is very different from the “blade blade hit” of standard content

[pliant drum]

NO WAY... we're giving in opinions in the suggestions chat?!!??!?!?!?!??!?!

[vital burrow]

You guys remember Tennyson? and all of the tension you felt seeing that Shad meter build round after round ramping up the pressure for you to kill as soon as possible? That's a turn count limit in essence

[quiet canyon]

Like its crazy to me to suggest the timer is a needed element in any of this when the content we want is already partially designed in a nerfed form. Like you have to keep in mind how much of a difference stat maxes and card bans will already affect hard mode content. Like just on those two alone should be sufficient to forgo automatically implementing a timer. Not to mention the ideas as AOEs as we know them arent a guarantee either so there's still balancing being done that will increase the difficulty before even considering a timer

[gaunt elbow]

just like how we think the timer is dumb 👍

[teal mauve]

fr man I thought we were just giving out statement and facts. This is a turn in which I was not ready for.

[vital burrow]

is it not factual that you can create tension and difficulty without a timer counting seconds?

[wise zodiac]

I’m pretty sure most of things we have been saying were opinions and not facts. Didn’t realize that I had to cite every single thing I say like this is an essay

[placid canopy]

Let's just keep pretending the devs are incapable of designing in-fight lose conditions and insist that you could never lose a wiz duel without running out of time.

This is why before the time limit in PvP nobody ever won a match, because duels just went on indefinitely.

[pliant drum]

THIS IS AN ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY

CITE EVERY PART OF YOUR LIFE HISTORY RIGHT NOW

oh and you also need paragraphs describing the legitimacy of each source

[teal mauve]

No. No it is not.

[pliant drum]

So you think that darkmoor did not create tension? You think that devourer did not create tension? You think that hall of heroes did not create tension?

[quiet canyon]

bro thats a design skill issue if you truly believe that

[umbral scaffold]

Side bosses and dungeons used to feel different from standard questing because there were brand new mechanics for every fight—every fight was different. But advanced content today has the same gameplay loop, the same turn counts, and the same mechanics, making it feel just as monotonous as questing. Adding a timer to say “now it’s hard” isn’t the same thing at all. We had hard content; now we have easy content you have to beat quickly

[gaunt elbow]

there is no way you actually believe that tension and difficulty cannot be created without a timer

[pulsar spruce]

Siri, what's the myth spell that removes up to 3 negative charms on self for 3 traps on opponent?

[pliant drum]

Delusion my beloved

[placid canopy]

You must not have much faith in the design abilities of the Wizard101 team. I believe they're capable of designing fights with lose conditions for poor play.

[teal mauve]

Yes. Yes I do.

[quiet canyon]

There are 100s of elements in wiz that we can pull from to make difficult content. These same ideas are even used in PIRATE like KI has created difficult content in 2 games without timers. It is physically possible, it has carried these games for 15 and 10 years respectively

[gaunt elbow]

insert talking to a brick wall gif here

[pulsar spruce]

there's a mainline boss that has an ftk condition if you reach a certain turn lol you could literally apply it on turn 1 and the fight would certainly be difficult

[wise zodiac]

Yeah the rat instantly kills you if you reach round 30

[umbral scaffold]

Darkmoor malistaire takes at least 8 turns to beat (and often 12, or even more at the appropriate level); the nullity takes like 6 at worst. Part of what’s missing in the advanced experience is boss fights that actually take a long time. There is no sense of scale or power to beating the “big bad” in just a few rounds.

[teal mauve]

Well then dont let him kill you in 30 rounds 🤦‍♂️

[gaunt elbow]

you are missing the point

[placid canopy]

Well then just beat the boss before the timer runs out 🤦‍♂️

[pliant drum]

lim f(x)
killrnd -> 0

as killrnd -> 0, strategy -> infinity

[wise zodiac]

It’s an example of a wipe mechanic? I think 30 rounds is a bit too easy but imagine if they had something like that where it was 10 rounds to clear a boss or you’re team instantly dies

[vital burrow]

Cleanse, are you saying that you find every single fight in the entire game completely trivial even if you remove every spell banned from advanced combat, with no spikes in difficulty?
Please tell us what fights in the game you find are difficult

[pulsar spruce]

the game is too easy even if every spell in the game was banned because there was no timer...

[placid canopy]

I find every fight in the entire game completely trivial even if you remove every spell banned from advanced combat

[pliant drum]

only spell allowed is doom owl

[teal mauve]

King goobler in karamelle he pretty tough

[vital burrow]

There's no timer, why do you find it hard then? Please explain what makes it difficult

[umbral scaffold]

Cause there’s a wipe mechanic 💀

[pliant drum]

THATS ONE OF THE FIGHTS WITH THE KILL CONDITION WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 😭😭😭

[acoustic sierra]

Tension can be created without a timer, I believe. I also believe the timer creates a different kind of tension which I described earlier. ATM, advanced attempts to integrate both.

[teal mauve]

I forgot to pack heals. thats the only reason. with heals it easy 💪

[vital burrow]

He's starting to understand. Let's keep the line of questioning up.

[acoustic sierra]

Now I'm home, then eat, then to the kids football game, so why not mix it up with a few wiz heads?

[pliant drum]

its hard

us: "yeah its hard because it has a kill condition"

i forgot to pack heals thats the only reason why its hard

[umbral scaffold]

There’s a big difference between “I can complete this fight” and “it’s trivial”

[vital burrow]

I do not think I can possibly convey to Cleanse how fun it was to play through Karamelle day one completely blind and solo, navigating and figuring out all the boss cheats and playing around their very intensely varied cheats, mechanics, and alternative Lose Conditions. I'm sorry that Cleanse will never know the joy that I felt and that is a real darn shame. That is that thrill I seek from raids.

[umbral scaffold]

One of the easiest ways to make a fight feel more substantial is to increase the number of rounds it takes to win. And no, I don’t mean by polymorphing us into penguins until we kill something—giving our characters full power, and still having to take a long time to win

[pulsar spruce]

I remember Karamelle on test/release like everyone was complaining about gobbsmack 😭

[teal mauve]

I was one of the first people to beat karamelle I just speedrun the entire thing @gaunt elbow fact

[pliant drum]

clearly because you alpha strike blitzed through it

[wise zodiac]

Just curious. have you ever done a raid before

[teal mauve]

No I just have all the nullity and void gear.

[pliant drum]

have you ever obtained a piece of hunhau gear in your life

[placid canopy]

What does trivial mean for wiz?

The game is quite simple, there's no PvE I would describe as "difficult" currently in the game.

Difficulty to me in Wizard101 would be a fight where its unclear what spell I need to pick, and making the wrong decision could cause me to lose.

[gaunt elbow]

nobody has, that's the best part 👍

[teal mauve]

No because my pvp set up doesnt need that gear since dual schooling is something that lame imo

[umbral scaffold]

No, incorrect take, because raid timers require that fights be predictable enough to progress through them quickly and simply. Cheats that aren’t “I roshambo you” aren’t cool anymore, and why would we ever want them back

[pliant drum]

ONLY THE WAND IS EVEN GOOD FOR DUAL SCHOOL LOL

[teal mauve]

So why would I need that gear when I can just run burrower lol? Like you think that gonna change anything.

[gaunt elbow]

I mean even if you didn't want to heavily invest into another school you could just use life pips to heal with tcs

[pliant drum]

So now you're talking about gear and ignoring the fact that you literally have never tried the Azteca raid yet feel a need to comment on a major factor in it

[quiet canyon]

But a timer has to be set to a certain point for that difficulty and I think thats where the disconnect is. If you guys design a 4 person dungeon and it can't be beaten by 2 ice wizards and 2 life wizards then you have effectively killed off any reason to run those classes, or made it too difficult for them to be viable options. You are potentially making the content so hard that it has to be planned for in advanced because you need certain players and schools to beat it. On the other hand, if you make the timer broad enough to support a full team of ice wizards, then you dont have enough pressure for say a full team of storm wizards. This is largely how the raids work. I could never gather a random assortment of schools together and go into the raid. I could not grab 12 ice wizards and go into the raid and expect that 12 wizards with the weakest dpp to beat the content in the expected time frame.

We do not want to be forced to choose a specific school in order to beat hard content. And most importantly to me, I want all schools to always be viable

[umbral scaffold]

I don’t think any fight in the game hasn’t been optimized to the point where you will not know at any point which spell to pick, but this is a really good way of increasing difficulty. But the lack of randomness going in (i.e it’s not slay the spire, we can pick our decks) means that it’s much more difficult to make this happen.

[teal mauve]

I never said I didnt, I said I didnt obtain gear. I played when it first release but stop because I dont need the gear

[pliant drum]

Then you dont have anywhere near the experience to say if the timer is healthy for it or not tbh

[acoustic sierra]

The plan would not be a fixed solution set. It should be tailored for a combination of schools. We need to be more mindful of that with 4 people vs 12.

However, we should also be planning to encourage strong dual schoolers.

[umbral scaffold]

This exact problem happened in destiny 2 a few years back (with the reckoning), where they designed an encounter around the best builds for everyone, and it turned into the least enjoyable encounter in the game

[teal mauve]

Im sorry since when does playing a part of the game for 100 hours compared to like 10 hours have such a level in knowledge? Its not hard to learn your position in the raid. You can probably figure it out after like 1 or 2 runs. If it takes you more then that brain is not working lol

[placid canopy]

Funny you mention Slay the Spire, I think that the devs should absolutely play that game to get some inspiration for Wiz.

[pliant drum]

I think it should always be mindful of that, regardless if the player count is 12 or 4.

The raid is absolutely ridiculous in its time constraint because currently the only way anyone has come close to beating it is with a full team of minmaxed attackers of the 3 best hitting schools.

The raid is not viable for weaker schools. And the schools other than storm/fire/myth that DO participate just use mono offschool into storm/fire/myth.

[gaunt elbow]

so you have not raided then?

[teal mauve]

Where are you seeing the message "I have not raided" I literally said I have and that I HAVENT gotten gear.

[vital burrow]

Are you implying something about the people still working on beating Crying Sky? 🤨 The raid is not as trivial as that...

[pliant drum]

I'm sorry but "learning your position" in the raid is not the scope we are talking about here.

The scope we are talking about here is the strategy of the raid as a whole and the overall plan with all things considered, not just 1 inexperienced person memorizing their 3 step checklist...

[gaunt elbow]

please tell me how you figured out a raid in 2 runs as a new player to it, let alone the azteca one

[teal mauve]

Red I feel like your brain is struggling and thats ok. I said my position that I was told to do I learnt that pretty quickly. Any minor changes depending on how the raid goes will obviously be talked and planned by everyone else. lol

[pliant drum]

"[your] position" in a raid you havent won

or received any gear in, for that matter

[teal mauve]

DID I SAY I WON. IM JUST IMPLYING THAT I DID MY PART. my goodness please for the love of god have context clues.

[pulsar spruce]

the most ad hominem that even hominem'd

[gaunt elbow]

If you are refering to the void raid that one was easy to figure out your position in yea, the azteca raid has a lot more moving parts and you aren't going to know what to do in 2 runs, even with a guide

[quiet canyon]

keep it civil please smh

[pliant drum]

I'm not saying you won? I'm just saying you're acting quite high and mighty talking about knowing everything about the raid when nobody has won it yet, and you've only done 1-2 runs lol

[umbral scaffold]

I don’t think that’s the experience the devs are going for in advanced combat though. For pvp, yes—hopefully—but not pve. That question of “what should I be doing this turn” just hasn’t been asked in 15 years of pve, so I can’t imagine that the player base will suddenly welcome it with open arms. I’m hoping pvp will in fact have that feeling, though

[teal mauve]

😭 I just wish you read my sentences properly.

[pliant drum]

😭 I just wish you didn’t comment on timers like a know-it-all in a gamemode you’ve tried only twice

[acoustic sierra]

Also, @quiet canyon , were you the one asking for more incentive to run different roles? Like finding a place for tanking?

[teal mauve]

😭 My sentence stated figuring out your position in a raid in 1 or 2 rounds not me doing 1 or 2 runs

[acoustic sierra]

I can't remember.

[quiet canyon]

yes

[vital burrow]

Imagine a fight where you keep an NPC alive for 5 rounds and you're incentivized to send in an Ice and Life wizard...

[gaunt elbow]

you guys should buff shadow sentinel to absorb 50% of the damage dealt to everyone instead of 25%

[acoustic sierra]

How would you suggest we create experiences which pressure tank play without therefore forcing use of tank schools?

[gaunt elbow]

that would be epic

[vital burrow]

This could be a good opportunity to remember the reworked Taunts and Pacify

[teal mauve]

✅

[gaunt elbow]

I remember duoing darkmoor with my storm wizard friend while I tanked on my ice with the reworked taunts, it went surprisingly well and I was able to keep him alive
(we were both lvl 100)

[acoustic sierra]

I'm not sure when they were originally introduced, but we were looking at different tank focused effects in arc 2. Nothing has been decided just some discussions.

[vital burrow]

I think something as simple as a shield/absorb+taunt spell could go a long way. Balance wise I don't know how that could be valued but anything that adds taunt or pacify as secondary effects

[umbral scaffold]

Ice notoriously never dies in pve content, but it has never been useful to bring an ice over a jade school that can heal (death, life). I would like to see that change. Not sure how, of course

The beastmoon ice colossus equivalent in pve. Lots of shields, lots of damage intercept

[placid canopy]

Well, the devs want to group all Advanced Combat together, and Challenge Mode/Raids should prepare people to participate in PvP.

"What should I be doing this turn" should be the exact thing the devs want us to ask while playing any Advanced Combat. That's how to make Wizard101 have engaging gameplay.

[gaunt elbow]

also keep in mind that the empowerment aura exists so anything that costs 4+ pips and can be casted on yourself (like mega taunt) will let you get another pip back letting you chain taunts

[acoustic sierra]

I love the intercept mechanic I used on life Colossus in Beastmoon

[vital burrow]

Also Ice struggles to shelter more fragile schools because they legion shield and then it all gets pierced. They would need higher shield values that can only be used on allies or some form of true intercept. Meanwhile death goes "lol" and casts virulent plague

[gaunt elbow]

this is why I always wish shadow sentinel worked better but 25% intercept just doesn't cut it sadly

[umbral scaffold]

Also it takes a shad, which don’t exist in pve right now because fights are too short

[placid canopy]

(Potentially solved by Pierce revamp)

[acoustic sierra]

Yeah I want to fully develop the mechanic to be more usable.

[vital burrow]

Actually I have another idea that is not a shield + taunt. Ice also has trap identity right? Give them a Universal Trap + Taunt spell, that could also be thematic for their tank concept

[umbral scaffold]

Regardless of how this all shapes out, can we please get the first “hard mode dungeons” to be level scaled to, like, 50 (briskbreeze/crown of fire) so that more of the player base can engage with it? 50 seems like the optimal level to introduce advanced mode, and mixing together players who quested a bit, but stopped, and players who are max level would be a really great way to mix together more of the community (in the same kind of way that the azteca raid animus fight was supposed to)

[acoustic sierra]

Anyway, I'm going to stop responding in this suggestion thread, as we are planning to deliver this one.

[vital burrow]

Artie, is there currently tech that can support basically reverse-level-scaling drops? Basically, letting a Max and a level 50 fight the same level scaled boss at level 50 stats but giving the respective correctly leveled drops

[placid canopy]

There are just so so so so many things that could be done with Ice in regards to filling a protector role.

Looking forward to see content that would encourage or welcome that kind of role.

[acoustic sierra]

Don't we have a general section?

Oh yeah, level scaled drops, yeah, that's one of the phases of the level scaling initiative, so it's on the roadmap.

[pearl sequoia]

maybe make it so that said boss ditches out a huge hit when a certain condition is met and the only way to counter it is by taunting and taking the hit for your teammates

[umbral scaffold]

It doesn’t have to even be level scaled to some degree. If a level 50 dungeon dropped level 50 gear, but also enough spellements that high level players would be willing to go in with their friends—everyone needs arc 1 spellements—that would probably be good enough

[quiet canyon]

By designing the fight around certain play styles. We've seen in pvp in previous metas that storm wizards can play the healing role, even though they dont want to, they did have the tools to do it. Equally, Ice is not the only tank school so it would not necessarily mean that a fight desiring a tank would need that wizard to be ice. I think team pvp will be your best example of this where we could take any combination of schools and still somewhat create the standard roles of combat.

For example I think it should be fair to say if a combat is designed around shields being the best way to mitigate damage and create the desire to bring a shield school, Ice would be the best choice to accomplish this. However, death and myth would also be good schools (and should have the tools via synergy or dual schooling) to accomplish that goal. However, if say the combat also isn't necessarily pushing shield play but just damage mitigation then there's room for life to jump in as well.

Basically I would say it comes down to targeting the play style and not the school. in this fight scenario, I would suggest it be nearly impossible for 4 glass cannon storm wizards (high damage, high pierce, high crit, low resist/block/health) from being able to kill the boss. They should in theory be killed before they can kill the boss. Now thats not to say quad storm shouldnt be viable, but if say two of those storm wizards walk into the fight with stats AND spells set to mitigate damage, then it should be more viable for them. It should be even more viable for the ice wizard to come along potentially allowing 3 glass cannon storm wizards into the fight.

[zenith spoke]

I feel like there should always be a need to have a balanced team. Like world of warcraft. idk. Standard team around when darkmoor was released was a healer, tank, hitter, then death to round it out. It should be something like that

[acoustic sierra]

Would you say this should go in the balance channel?

[quiet canyon]

I can repost it there

[acoustic sierra]

Thanks, just wanting to move the traffic. I don't think there's anything more to say about dungeons? I dunno, these suggestion threads are new.

[fast widget]

Glad to see dungeons being discussed about from the devs, certainly a must needed topic to bring up!

[mental burrow]

Yeah same, I’ve been playing since 08 and have loved the dungeons. It was always a fun thing to do with friends. I hope you guys can considering bringing them back!

[stiff heron]

Yes, I really don't like having to be a specific school.

[stiff heron]

that's an interesting idea

[dreamy wave]

Old thread but I miss the older dungeons we had I’ve been playing for a long time and replaying the game from start to finish I loved the dungeons but a lot of it was nerfed so heavily. As for future dungeons although I’ll farm for gear the instances (final) dungeons are not fun at all. Miss the times where worlds like Marleybone krokotopia mooshu etc had dungeons at the end of each area to fignt that areas boss it truly was the prime of wiz I don’t mind occasionally popping in via team up kiosk and helping in those dungeons they’re so fun to continually do even if there’s no gear to be obtained. I remember the side dungeons in grizzlehiem didn’t have to complete it but was challenging and fun

If we can get something like that to return to the game besides (challenge) mode which was how the fight was somewhat before would be amazing. Without the added cheats ofc and rules . All those dungeons added so much life into the world and you had secret bosses some of Zekes fetch quest were hidden there too.

[dense pasture]

Personally I miss the old approach of "secret" bosses like Youkai that you didn't necessarily need a key to fight... they don't necessarily have to have good drops since they're not key bosses but I just like the idea of secret side-bosses, it makes the area feel more lived-in IMO

[stiff heron]

yes that's what I like too.

[wise zodiac]

I just want a dungeon that feels like an actual area and not something that is just mob fight after mob fight then a boss. Which arguably isn't even a dungeon lol

[dreamy wave]

There were badges for that one right? Or any dungeons secret boss

[umbral scaffold]

There was a secret boss in katzenstein’s lab that you could only access after completing a small side quest inside the dungeon, and it dropped stitch gear pretty regularly. That’s the ideal way to do a secret boss imo

[merry schooner]

Side activity not quest