Séance/Seance Rework

[shy gust]

Séance should give a random spectral card once the boss blind has been defeated

[last isle]

no

it's just fine as it is

[shy gust]

it's one of the worst jokers in the game

and does virtually nothing even if you keep it for a full game

[tacit oak]

This rework makes it hella boring

[last isle]

or use it as a rib of a build

[shy gust]

a joker doing nothing is more interesting?

[tacit oak]

Seance is more interesting

[shy gust]

how is it more interesting?
it's just more niche, that's not interesting to me.

[tacit oak]

The root of the problem is blue stake removing a discard

[last isle]

S. flush is one of the most fun things to build around because it's uncommon

[shy gust]

that is NOT the root of the problem. the root of the problem is how rare straight flushes are even without blue stake

[last isle]

but the game isn't balance around stakes. or is it? not in my opinion

[tacit oak]

Not every joker needs to work every run, but you 100% can build around straight flush occasionally, even on gold stake

[last isle]

have you ever use suit changing tarots

[tacit oak]

It is, evident by stuff like Banner being reworked to be more blue stake friendly

[shy gust]

I never said every run, I'm just saying that even if you take it it's very likely to just do nothing.

[last isle]

but blue stake is also getting reworked

[tacit oak]

Well that was before blue stake rework was mentioned

[shy gust]

I have 800+ hours, yes I use suit changing tarots. that doesn't make my argument any less cogent. straight flushes are still rare even on checkered, and that's with smeared at base basically.

[tacit oak]

@shy gust Banner used to be a 40 chips/discard uncommon when it was first added, and got reworked to a 30 chips common so there wouldn’t be a huge discrepancy between stakes

[last isle]

but get up to three, most likely two spectral per S.flush is good

[shy gust]

that's not a rework, that's a rebalance, imo

[tacit oak]

Ok whatever, it got rebalanced - happy now?

[shy gust]

two per S.flush? what do you mean
Seance is 1, if you're using BP/Brainstorm as a balancing argument then I absolutely disagree

[last isle]

your suggestion is, making a fun joker that is hard too gain max use out of. but has good payout. into a chicot with spectrals

[last isle]

per round. sorry

[shy gust]

it's not about getting max use out of, it's about getting any use out of. it's very unlikely to do something across a run, typically, and if it does it's very unlikely that it was worth keeping it for how long it took to get a payout.

[tacit oak]

Also even if it was a whole new joker rather than reworking seance, it’s still boring

[shy gust]

it's not fun for a joker to just be useless the vast majority of the time

[tacit oak]

I have a problem with making a fun joker boring, not saying that seance is particularly strong

[shy gust]

how is it fun for a joker to just do nothing 99% of the time?

[pine gyro]

unfun

[last isle]

how do you play

[tacit oak]

Skissue

[shy gust]

ante 8 gold stake almost exclusively

[ornate cradle]

no its just bad

[shy gust]

nice rebuttal.

[last isle]

fastest responseever

[pine gyro]

apple

[shy gust]

couldnt come up with a good counterpoint, resorted to "nuh uh you're bad"

[last isle]

then there's your problem

[ornate cradle]

??

[tacit oak]

Nice rebuttal deflecting about the joker’s strength rather than addressing that your rework is boring

[shy gust]

so my problem is I'm thinking of ante 8, when endless is secondary to ante 8

[ornate cradle]

what problem lol

[ornate cradle]

straight flushes for one spectral sucks

[last isle]

seance isn't built for that type of playstyle

[tacit oak]

I think the joker is bad but this ain’t it

[shy gust]

you haven't said HOW it's boring, so of course I'm not gonna argue against it lol

[ornate cradle]

endless doesn’t matter

[ornate cradle]

I mean I have my own rework idea but this seems pretty it to me

[tacit oak]

You take it and forget it, there’s zero gameplay involved with it

[mighty dune]

I think the biggest question when asking about changing a Joker, is
A. is it necessary
B. does it still fit the theming

now I don't know what seance actually has to do with straight flushes, but I think the point of the Joker is to infrequently give you a spectral card
seance is certainly bad enough to need a rework, it has virtually no usage in normal gameplay except on one deck potentially

[last isle]

do not bring up endless, in an argument about balance ever agai.

[ornate cradle]

yes

[shy gust]

??? you said my playstyle was the problem when I said I play ante 8 gold stake almost exclusively

[ornate cradle]

I assume cartomancer is also a deal breaker

its just a joker with a passive effect I don’t see the problem

[timber goblet]

fuck it why not

[tacit oak]

I like cartomancer, difference is tarot generation is more frequent and it’s nice having a basic one

Like the point is seance wants you to engage with it and you’re making it into the complete opposite of what it is currently

[last isle]

the game isn't balance around endless. because there's like 3 strats that make it past ante 12

[shy gust]

but it's just "take it and forget", as you said was the issue with my séance rework

[timber goblet]

have you considered thinking

[last isle]

no not yet

[timber goblet]

sounds about right

[shy gust]

IM NOT ARGUING IN FAVOUR OF ENDLESS 👽👽👽

[mighty dune]

this is my question about the theming of seance, does it actually have to do with the specific hand straight flush, or with straight flush only chosen because it is infrequently played

[last isle]

okay. now let's get to the other problem

[timber goblet]

its just like my showman rework all over again

[tacit oak]

That seems like a pretty difficult thing to do, so I think it’s decently fitting - not strong theming but I at least see it

It’s not the biggest stretch in the game

[last isle]

but this is the spectral side of it

[shy gust]

once every ante seems pretty infrequent to me

[mighty dune]

well spectrals are, obviously, ghost themed

[timber goblet]

Seance (Common)
When this card is sold create a gros michel if it's popped

I'm a genius

[hexed pebble]

i think the main point is making spectral cards

[ornate cradle]

seance should have you play every rank in your deck once WHOOOOOOO SAIDDDD THATTTT hey thats a good idea THANK YOU WHOEVER SAID THAT anyways this idea is cool because current seance sucks

[shy gust]

Séance/Seance Rework

for visibility

[ornate cradle]

what R the problems people have with this again

[tacit oak]

Boring

[robust charm]

I like seance, it's repeatable and rewards deck fixing. Spectral cards should be rare and difficult to get in your consumables.

[mighty dune]

question, would this be copy compatible still

[shy gust]

yeah, but I don't think that's a good balancing argument

[mighty dune]

I'm trying to decide whether I would rather have it like madness, on the small and big blinds instead

[shy gust]

it's practically useless outside of endless and the occasional run

[pine gyro]

seance rework:
it can give soul

now it's better

[timber goblet]

roll an incantation and a deja vu instead of an incantation

[ornate cradle]

spectral cards can be doodoo sometimes

[pine gyro]

oh and blackhole

[ornate cradle]

deckfixing for strush is not worth it

[timber goblet]

idk man

fastest scaling in rhe game

and it gives aura

[shy gust]

I've had fewer strush runs than I can count on my fingers in 800+ hours

[ornate cradle]

sixth sense is the cousin seance’s mom constantly mentions

[last isle]

aura farming in balatro to make your deck shiny

[robust charm]

There are many jokers that are situational. I don't see this as a problem, and with the blue stake rework it will be better.

[timber goblet]

all jokers are situational but some are more situational than others

[hexed pebble]

there's a difference between being situational and doing nothing 99% of the time though

[shy gust]

it's not just that it's situational, it's how situational it is. also +1 discard really does not make seance viable

[timber goblet]

séance is one of the most situational jokers in the game

[last isle]

but that not seance

[shy gust]

it is though. It does nothing for most of the run, and what it gives is typically mid for the opportunity cost of a joker slot and digging for a straight flush

[shy gust]

you don't evaluate a joker based on it's max output. you look at the expected value, and seance has really bad expected value.

[ornate cradle]

all in good fun of course I just wanted to use the video for once

but it is seance

[last isle]

what are you cooking

[timber goblet]

https://youtu.be/DQgunytVmIU

[last isle]

not you.

what is your proposed idol rework

[timber goblet]

Ancient Joker

[last isle]

that's not already a joker

[verbal aurora]

seance is so ahh 💔

[robust charm]

+1 discard makes straight builds more viable, and if you're already making straights then a straight flush is typically one suit changer away

[fierce merlin]

I don't think reworking Seance is the worst idea, but this is not a good way to do it

Making Seance just give you a spectral every ante makes it so much less interesting because you no longer have to build towards it

Imo, the spectral creation Jokers should require you to focus on activating them in order to get good use out of them

Sixth Sense forces you to replenish your 6s to continue using it (which are ordinarily a pretty bad rank) and Seance right now forces you to build for Straight Flushes (which is not something you'd normally do since that's a very high risk hand type)

[last isle]

DNA nullifying it's weakness is kinda funny. but not a balance issue

[fierce merlin]

Sixth Sense + DNA is a really great combo, but it's one that I think is very fair (it is a specific Uncommon and specific Rare)

[tacit oak]

Yeah, I don’t know how an extra discard wouldn’t help at all lol

Also I just wanna add that even if you’re just pair spamming, you will draw a strush occasionally, especially if you aim for it

[last isle]

bro that what i've been saying.

[last isle]

S.flush isn't difficult to get with any planning

[tacit oak]

Yeah exactly, if you put in any bit of effort

It’s not some 1% thing like op really wants you to think, I actually think seance is bad because spectrals are too variable in usefulness

[last isle]

i think op just plays gold stake and endless where you deck is already fixed, which makes S.flush is difficult to play. not 1% but close

[tacit oak]

I play mostly gold stake and strush isn’t that hard, especially if you pivot straight to strush

[last isle]

that leave 1 explanation

[dawn dock]

this is pretty boring

[last isle]

yes, yes it is

it's the chicot of spectrals

[dawn dock]

[austere vector]

yeah the issue with the rework is 1. that its boring as hell 2. that its too easy to get a free spectral from

it would become an instant pick, but its just as boring

*more boring

[shadow cave]

Seance rework:
When a Spectral Card is used, the next hand is always considered as Straight Flush.

[simple temple]

An Straight flush build it's not that hard to make