Showman rework

[winged pivot]

Showman (Uncommon)
Uncommon and Rare jokers become 15% more likely.
(Common = 40%, Uncommon = 40%, Rare = 20%)

[sour prairie]

ehhhh i dont like not have the option for multiple tarrots and spectal

[stable cypress]

showman is fine as it is

[austere geyser]

this would be good as a new joker

[olive crystal]

L take

Its the only joker that hurts u in ante 8 gold stakes

[winged pivot]

bad argument

marble joker

[stable cypress]

game isnt balanced around gold stake

[winged pivot]

wouldn't call its only application being endless fuckery fine

[olive crystal]

Marble joker good ante 1,

[olive crystal]

Yes it literally is

[winged pivot]

thunk balanced around gold stake for 101

[olive crystal]

Smh smh

[stable cypress]

no need to be so condescending

[olive crystal]

Id say keeping marble ante 1 for 6 rounds (6 stone cards) is beneficial for some runs

+50chips always good

[winged pivot]

are the some runs in the room at this instant

[olive crystal]

Wdym?

[winged pivot]

nvm im tired

[olive crystal]

Oh

[olive crystal]

Condescending? Sister i just be shaking mah head

[sour prairie]

Its not a card that hurts runs

It just gets more powerful the further you go

[olive crystal]

Wayy further, into endless when you have thousands of dollars to make actual use of its effect

Beyond that it devalues packs

And pervents you from blocking consumables which brings a lot more consistancy to shops

[sour prairie]

Yes yes but I cannot tell you the amount of times I've opened up a pack and pulled 2 deaths or 2 temperance

And I enjoy holding onto tarrots like death for using in the rounds

[olive crystal]

Yeah, but other times its 2 suns, or like 2 chariots

[sour prairie]

And also having them show up in pack.

Yeah yeah but blocking doesn't garentee anything good either (better odds sure)

[olive crystal]

Usually theres more undesired tarots them desired ones

So you hold onto ones you dont want

So u are more likely to get the ones you do want

Its like balatro 101

Showman kills that idea

[sour prairie]

I know that????

Why are you telling me???

[olive crystal]

It ruins consistancy

[olive crystal]

If you know that then you know why showman is bad

[sour prairie]

Showman isnt bad though

Its less consistent sure but its got rewards

[olive crystal]

Like losing

[sour prairie]

Objectively no

Showman isnt getting rid of a ton of hand size or making you need to draw that one card

It makes shops more risky but more rewarding. And if you have a good economy it can be really usefull

[olive crystal]

It makes overall packs worse, its essentially gambling, a player whose skilled knows thst they have a better chance at winning by not gambling their packs

Like

1 good pack interaction isnt worth devaluing every pack under $8

[tall marsh]

showman is ok

[olive crystal]

And even then, it mucks up ur chances in the $8 packs anyeay

[olive crystal]

Its the only joker that hurts u in ante 8 gold stake

[sour prairie]

Not just the mega. I do enjoy holding onto useful carrots and seeing them in packs thats usefull

[tall marsh]

what

oh ok

[olive crystal]

Why not use them lol

[sour prairie]

And there are only 2 packs in a given shop so...

[sour prairie]

Hold onto them in case of immergency? You know so you don't lose

[olive crystal]

Basic oppurtunity cost theory applys to packs aswell

[sour prairie]

I know i just don't see blocking being lost to outlay the upsides

And that is just my opinion

[olive crystal]

Well

[olive crystal]

Doing the math blocking bad tarots changes ur odds of finding one tarot from 6.6% -> 7.6% and chances are youre looking for hanged man, death, temprence, and hermet. So in reality its 26.66% -> 30.77% or about a 4% increase, so with showman you literally see less of the tarots you want on average

Thats not even including fool

[sour prairie]

What if you have let's say a celestial pack and a arcana pack you can't block both (unless you get a priestess)
Or spectral cards on ghoast deck,
getting more from the planets and the tarots when its successful is very nice (especially for planets if you have telescope)

It doesnt hurt you as much as other jokers in 8ante gold stake as others do

Also im not oblivious there are alot of times that showman isnt particularly useful

[olive crystal]

As other jokers? Have you played gold stake

[sour prairie]

But it's not detrimental

[sour prairie]

I have?

Plenty of times

[olive crystal]

What other jokers hurt you?

[sour prairie]

Idol is way riskier and ends in disaster often (its a good card just its a risky one for ante 8)

Stuntman is good early game but funnels you down a hard to get out of play style

Splash and paradolia have some nasty points that can hurt you (the least offensive here but you know that still exists)

Madness duh, is extremely committal and so unless you pull like a ton of eternal jokers your limiting yourself alot

So on and so forth
Id say showman isnt as bad as at least a couple here and should just be categorized at around the same risk as paradolia

[olive crystal]

If stuntman hurts you, you clearly arent playong with stuntman right, its instant direction, +250chips covers more then the downside, pairs are the most consistantly winning hand

Splash doesnt hurt you at all, it actually works very well with jokers like seeing double and flower pot,

Paradolia at least allows midas mask to make all cards gold

Madness is literally A+ teir and can carry entire runs,

None of these jokers hurt you

[sour prairie]

hey speaking of whichi just pulled a natural negitive showman

[sour prairie]

they have strong downsides

[olive crystal]

Yeah, but showman is literally JUST a downside

[sour prairie]

no it isnt? i think i already made clear that there are good uses

it just isnt your cup of tea

i suppose

[olive crystal]

Yeah bc my cup of tea is winning

You're example of a good use

Being

Telescope showman

But thats completely redundent bc blue seals

And idol is niche but there is some cases where its strong

[sour prairie]

thats just not true and again i win alot of runs so whats yout point

[sour prairie]

exactly

i agree

[olive crystal]

Niche ≠ hurts you

[little charm]

id argue there are other jokers that hurt you in gold stake runs

[olive crystal]

Name one and ill explain its use case

[sour prairie]

showman has use cases so its not like your making showman worse by saying others have use cases too

[olive crystal]

It has like one use case in endless

Other wise it makes packs like rlly bad

[little charm]

this is grasping but mr bones essentially cripples your total scoring output for a free pass

its a fine panic pickup but it feels more then harm then good to me

[sour prairie]

it makes them more risky*

[olive crystal]

Risky = bad

Why take needless risk

When you can have an open joker slot

And more conisistantly benefit from packs

[olive crystal]

Kinda is grasping, like if u have the joker slot and feel u might need it its worth picking up, bc yeah losing everything sucks but it gives you a chance to get back into winning

Like if u didnt have mr.bones u wouldve just lost

Thats purely beneficial

[little charm]

99% quit before the multisoul arcana pack

[olive crystal]

Lmao real

I love gambling

[little charm]

based on your opinion of showman i doubt it

[sour prairie]

gambling is risky!!!!

lol

[olive crystal]

Thats why i dont openly say ppl should gamble

🤔

[little charm]

I always find that i get chastized in this server because i play balatro in a very specific way due to mental disorder and a lot of people just interpret that as lack of comprehension of the game

i understand the "correct" move in a given situation, but i chose my way instead

[olive crystal]

Thats playing for fun

Which is what you should do

[little charm]

not even playing for fun, i play specifically to reward my instant gratification

[olive crystal]

Its just in like #🕹・game-discussion ppl are there to discuss the game, like most optimal ways of winning

So like

[little charm]

because mental disfunction is funny, i chose the risky/short term play more then the long term play

[olive crystal]

Just dont do real life gambling o7

Like here

[little charm]

too lat

e

I made 47k last month of blackjack :))))))))

[olive crystal]

Im not claiming showman isnt fun im claiming showman is not optimal

[little charm]

( i should clarify i dont gamble as a job, i went to a casino and got really lucky)

[sour prairie]

yay!!!!!!

[vale blade]

every joker has a niche

[olive crystal]

Yeah, except showman's niche is actually just bad

[vale blade]

what

no?

[olive crystal]

It ruins any hopes of consistancy in celestrial and arcana packs

And disables consumable blocking, an important techinique

[vale blade]

sure

it also lets you double up strong jokers

[olive crystal]

Oh, like 5% chance of a 1/33 chance to get blue print a second time right?

[vale blade]

there are other jokers than just blueprint

[olive crystal]

Invis literally already has that niche too

[olive crystal]

Its an example that just bc you have showman doesnt mean you will get 2 of the same joker

[vale blade]

invis is more randomness for less cost

showman is more consistency for more cost

[olive crystal]

Consistency?

Explain how showman is consistent

And you can garuntee what invis hits too

Like

[vale blade]

say you have
wrathful | photo | chad | golden

if you have an invisible, you dont pick which you get

if you have a showman you can role down to get a specific one

[olive crystal]

$1000s of on avg

[vale blade]

no lmao

[olive crystal]

Youll lose before u get $1000 ante 8 gold dtake

[vale blade]

it does not take 1000s to roll down for a common joker

[olive crystal]

Yes, you know you only have a .7% chance to find a specific common joker right

[little charm]

this is someone whos never had to truly roll down for a joker before you lose

[olive crystal]

Incredibly unreliable

[vale blade]

invis is even worse on gold stake cause eternal jokers exist and unless you're good with that being copied

[vale blade]

oh, but i have

luchador usually

[olive crystal]

Invis is rlly good gold stake

Showman hurts you by scrambling packs

[vale blade]

a showman wont copy that random eternal you needed to pick up ante 2 to survive

an invis might

[olive crystal]

A .7% chance to find a copy of a joker u already have isnt worth it

[little charm]

a showman wont do shit dawg why are u confused

[tall marsh]

what the

[olive crystal]

Okay, and when you finf a showman you have to FIND a copy of the already held joker

You cant just summon jokers like that

[little charm]

judgement: its a 1/146

[olive crystal]

Judgement is random

[vale blade]

it is not that hard to roll down for a common when you take vouchers and good econ into consideration

if you dont have good econ you're not winning anyway

econ or similar value generation

[olive crystal]

It is, have u ever played gold stake ante 8

Like

[little charm]

brother it can take hundreds to roll to the correct cards

[vale blade]

yes

[little charm]

You know the reroll feature scales in cost right?

your aware of that?

[vale blade]

wow no really???

crazy

[olive crystal]

You need to have like

Consistantly getting hundreds of dollars each round

To make showman as consistant as youre claiming to be

With reduced chances of temprence and hermits in packs

[little charm]

bro just has eternal streamer luck ig

[vale blade]

no, my claim is that it gives more consistency than invisible for a greater cost

[olive crystal]

Yeah gl

[vale blade]

dont put words in my mouth

[olive crystal]

Youre claiming its more conissistent then invis

I didnt put words in ur mouth

Showman is literally, mathmatically not as consistant as invis

[tall marsh]

wait if showman gets reworked then it removes the “appears twice” thing right

[little charm]

yes

[olive crystal]

Ye

[tall marsh]

oh

[olive crystal]

Its a rework

[vale blade]

let me do the math, give me a minute

[olive crystal]

Making uncommons and rares more common would make its niche actually do its job

[little charm]

why are we even trying to fix showman its fine as is

[vale blade]

my point exactly

[olive crystal]

1/147 < 1/4

I did it for u

[little charm]

no, your point was a lot more extreme and degenerate

[tall marsh]

showman has the one thing unique about it which is the duplicates (invis exists but this) appearing in shop

[olive crystal]

Bc it sees no use in gold stake win streaks

[little charm]

wait can judgement give legendarys?

[olive crystal]

No

[little charm]

it sees no use in one stake thats fine

[little charm]

then wouldnt it be 146 not 147

[olive crystal]

The game is balanced around ante 8 gold stakw

[olive crystal]

Ure right typo

[vale blade]

1. showman is an uncommon thus easier to find
2. there's the cost of invis copying an eternal which isnt present with showman

[vale blade]

the game is balanced around white stake

[tall marsh]

its more like 146^2/147^2 (not including consumables)

[vale blade]

p sure thunk has said as much

let me see if i can find it

[olive crystal]

Brother

If the game is balanced around white

Then this game was built to be piss easy

Thunk said 1.0.1 is balanced for gold stakes

[vale blade]

ok this one message i found indicates that balance is more general which i think is fair
#1226687886980681870 message

i dunno where i came up with the claim of the game being balanced around white

i cant find anything from control+F

[tall marsh]

i dont know how to respond to that because like thunk could make it feel more in the middle but balatro is like a casual game

[olive crystal]

Showman is uncommon so ull see it more?
Okay but you still have full chances of finding the joker you wanna copy in shop and even worst chances to find econ to let you keep you looking for it, finding 1 rare specific joker is more reliable then finding 2 specific jokers

Especially if the joker you want to find is uncommon or rare

Like yeah u can keep saying eternal this eternal that. But like, showman costs wayy too much, you can just use that money on pivoting or finding different jokers, or literally ANYTHING else

Like

Showman finding u another joker isnt worth $100s to $1000s in rerolls

Especially gold stake ante 8. Where you have to deal with rentals and 4× blind reqs

spend to live not to waste

[sour prairie]

okay so i can spend money on a mister bones but not a shoman?

[olive crystal]

Yeah bc mr.bones helps you survive

[sour prairie]

also i got 2 blueprints thanks to my nat negitive showman!!!! yippee me

[olive crystal]

Lol

[sour prairie]

and showman helps you build your run

[olive crystal]

Okay ggs on being lucky

[sour prairie]

yeah yeah

[olive crystal]

LMAO it does not

It does nothing to help u fix ur deck or build

I just explained why

For both packs and jokers

[tall marsh]

consumables? hold on let me read the last pages

[olive crystal]

I did a math error, bc if a arcana packs without show man its 1/15->1/14->1/13 not just 1/15, but it still demostrates that not being able to block consumables makes you see less of what you want

Bc theres always more than one tarot in packs

[tall marsh]

is it more statistically likely that there is a higher chance of using showman vs buying 1/2 consumables to reduce odds

[olive crystal]

Yeah buying undesired tarots and holding onto them will make finding things you want more consistant, and thus youll see more of what u want

Same applys to planets

And to an extent rare jokers

[olive crystal]

Yeah i just been here explaining why showman needs a rework without giving my opinion on the reworked idea

Lmao

[olive crystal]

Oh yeah i forgot to mention, what happens if the joker you wanted to copy spawns with parishable dont u have to reroll all over again?

Bc its a 30% chance its pareshable

Like FLAT 1/3

Higher chances of glass breaking

In gold stake

[tall marsh]

30% ≠ 1/3?

[olive crystal]

30% ≈ 1/3

≈ not =

Rounded up

To fit the fraction better

Sense its only 3% away from being 1/3rd

[little charm]

rounded down u mean?

isnt 33.3- 1/3

[olive crystal]

33.3 > 30

So id be up

[tall marsh]

that’s not how math works

if you round 33 to 30 you’re rounding down

if you round 33 to 35 you’re rounding up

[olive crystal]

1/3 = .3333333333

[tall marsh]

yes

[olive crystal]

Is .30 MORE or LESS than .3333333

[tall marsh]

0.30 is less

[sour prairie]

your rounding it to the lesser number

[tall marsh]

???

[sour prairie]

your rounding it down

[tall marsh]

yea

[olive crystal]

Then if i rounded .30 to .33 then i rounded up

[tall marsh]

what

??

[sour prairie]

your just wrong here

[olive crystal]

ROUNDING UP MEANS U INCREASE THE AMOUNT

[tall marsh]

if you round 0.333 to 0.35 then you are rounding up

[olive crystal]

Youre actually dumb

[tall marsh]

you’re rounding 3/10 to 1/3rds

[olive crystal]

Like

Dude

Up

Means

Add more

Thats why its called "up"

[tall marsh]

Up means you add MORE from the original number

And 1/3 is the original number

[olive crystal]

.33 IS LARGER than .30

I DID ADD MORE

+.03repeating to be specific

[tall marsh]

the original number is 0.333

[olive crystal]

No

[tall marsh]

what

[olive crystal]

The original number is .30

Bc

Its a 30%

[tall marsh]

but your 1 in 3 is the original number

your 0.3 is rounded

[olive crystal]

Not to fit 1/3

[sour prairie]

yeah never mind they are talking about stikers

so its 30%

[tall marsh]

oh

[olive crystal]

Bruh

[tall marsh]

jtdvrjjhfjrvhsjrvhsjvhrjvhrjrhvjrvhjjrvh

[olive crystal]

I explained what i meant in like 4ways

[tall marsh]

“flat 1/3”

[olive crystal]

Nit picking

[sour prairie]

girl you nitpicked showman alot so...

[olive crystal]

Because showman is literally the topic of discussion

[sour prairie]

and us

you also insulted us

[olive crystal]

https://youtu.be/k1BneeJTDcU?si=6x1_cJb07jhdBRMU

Ig

Idk

[vale blade]

i think the "rounding up" they were talking about was 30% -> 1/3

[olive crystal]

It was

They figured it out later

[tawdry mountain]

I think showman is fine rn

[olive crystal]

You think incorrectly

[tawdry mountain]

I mean that might be true but there is nothing inherently wrong with it that makes it need a rework

[olive crystal]

Yes there is. Its interaction with arcana, spectral and celestrial packs makes packs on average wayy worse

And essentially only that

Sense you get full odds of finding repeat jokers

It makes their spawns completely independent of eachother. Issue is most tarots/planets dont help you progress your build.

Bc of this its the only joker you can argue doesnt benefit you even in some incredibly niche way in the context of ante8 gold stake.

[tawdry mountain]

The main focus of showman is the chance of getting a duplicate joker, which is definitely a niche.
This downside that you find duplicate tarots and planets can be combatted by other jokers and vouchers if it's that bad of a problem

[olive crystal]

1/146 to find the repeat joker

Its purpose is definitely NOT repeat jokers

[tawdry mountain]

That's why people buy it tho

[olive crystal]

For endless runs where they can afford it right

context is ante 8 gold stake

[tawdry mountain]

Maybe u get lucky or smth

[olive crystal]

Its incredibly low chance to help u isnt worth ruining any means of pack consistancy

Maybe you do get lucky

But thats it, Its just gambling in the shop,

Like maybe if it only effected jokers it would be fine

[tawdry mountain]

Yea

[olive crystal]

But what it does to packs makes it the only joker that can hurt ur run

[tawdry mountain]

I mean troubador kind of does

[olive crystal]

Troubador is +2hand size for 1hand, you trade 1 hand or $1/round for more consistant 5card hands, it fits very well into straights, flushes or any 5card build, and even some high card builds

[sour prairie]

Objectively stuff like troubadour and stuntman can hurt your run

Not always but they can

[tawdry mountain]

There are a lot of cards that can help consistently build 5 card hands without trading something as important as a hand

[olive crystal]

Non of them give as big as a buff as +2handsize till its sold

[olive crystal]

If they hurt ur run thats bc it doesnt fit ur build, showman doesnt fit any builds bc what it does to paxks

[sour prairie]

Showman fits many builds

[tawdry mountain]

What if showman fits into a build that doesn't need packs 🤔

[olive crystal]

Name one and ill explain why it doesnt

[olive crystal]

All builds need packs

[sour prairie]

Red card builds dont need good packs

[olive crystal]

Yes they do, you still need to deck fix and get moni with redcard

I should know redcard is one of my highest winning jokers

[sour prairie]

Tarots are still important packs are nit

[sour prairie]

Me too actually

[sour prairie]

I love my builds like these

I've had a couple like it and it's a blast

[olive crystal]

Also like,

Redcard isnt normally the entire build,

[olive crystal]

This is a stencil build, as stencil is literally scoring ×5 redcard

[tawdry mountain]

Loyalty card build 🔥

[sour prairie]

And why do you need packs for stencil

[olive crystal]

To deck fix around a specific hand so u can scale chips with planets

Youre not winnijg without chips

[sour prairie]

Again not all builds need packs

[olive crystal]

Keep saying that

[static valve]

yeah how the hell are you getting chips in that build without packs

[olive crystal]

But u havnt named one

[sour prairie]

You have literally said Blue seals are better than planet packs

[olive crystal]

Okay, how am i going to consistantly draw my blue seal?

[sour prairie]

And the and tarots planets in shop are enough

[olive crystal]

By deck fixing

[static valve]

or: what if i dont have blue seals

[sour prairie]

Yes deck fixing is inportant

I'm not saying that it isnt

I'm saying that packs arnt important to all builds

[olive crystal]

Lmao WHAT

[sour prairie]

Has it not been for you?

[static valve]

even if there hypothetically was a build that didnt care about packs it doesnt make showman a good joker

[olive crystal]

No

You just clearly

Dont win

[sour prairie]

I literally do

[olive crystal]

^^^

[sour prairie]

Like saying I dont win doesnt make your argument more valid

[olive crystal]

Only after you say that you dont need a main feature of the shop screen

Like

Huh???

[sour prairie]

That's what most of their argument rests upon

[static valve]

i dont think thats true

[olive crystal]

No i already explained why its also bad at duping jokers

Like 3 times

[static valve]

i think what happened here is that we have fallen down a hole of trying to create scenarios where showman is actually good, when in reality, those niche potential scenarios dont actually matter in the grand scheme of things

[sour prairie]

Niche scenarios is what this game is about

Otherwise it's all high card spam

And nobody wants that

[static valve]

like yes, there are builds where you maybe dont care about packs, but 90% of the time those builds dont care about packs because theyve already won so

showman doesnt matter there either

like genuinely in what scenario would you have not already won and also dont care about getting AT LEAST hermit or temperance from tarot packs

[olive crystal]

If the game was actually about niche scenarios (which it isnt. Its rougelike poker) then showman doesnt really fit the theme of the game bc in every scenario you have showman its infinitely better to just have invis

[static valve]

please dont make a "this joker is always better" argument

those are always stupid and help nothing

[sour prairie]

Showman doesnt stop you from doing that and I have argued it just makes them more risky (which is fine not optimal but when it hits good it hits good)

You know

[olive crystal]

You could become a billionare from playing the lottery. But that doesnt make it responsible to buy tickets everyday

[sour prairie]

I agree with the not saying a joke is always better and also invisible is rare and this is uncommon so it not being as good at duping is a fair tradeoff

[olive crystal]

Yeah fair point

Mb

[olive crystal]

Showman isnt designed to copy jokers

Its designed to make all odds indepentent of each other

And its only meaningful effect makes the game more rng

[sour prairie]

I know that's how it works?? That's just what you were comparing it too

[olive crystal]

Illumi had a better counter to it

[sour prairie]

Unrelated but you have a weird tendency to explain things we know how it works

[sour prairie]

I've been arguing all day* with you

[olive crystal]

Bc when i explained what is exactly wrong with showman you keep giving me more and more hyperspecific scenarios or even non existant scenarios which all dont work for the same reason

If u dont need packs u already won the run

[sour prairie]

They literally work out for me often and so maybe that's just streamer luck or maybe it just evens out on the bug scale as you'll most likely get a similar amount of deck fixing either way

Im biased yes but I've had experience with it and its not like finding when to sell showman doesn't take skill

The hyper specific scenarios happen alot when you have alot of shops

And thats why we don't use throwback

[static valve]

throwback is a better joker than showman

[olive crystal]

No they dont, thats why i called them hyper specific

[sour prairie]

They literally have for me

[olive crystal]

For u

And probably only for u

[sour prairie]

Yeah i like throwback I just wanted some levitaty

[static valve]

what are these "hyper specific" scenarios youre referring to?

like hitting a good double tarot on a single pack or having entire runs where you dont really care about packs at all?

[sour prairie]

Pulling two of a helpful card in a mega and being able to hold a death and find in a pack

[static valve]

ok those arent the "hyper-specific" scenarios we're talking about

[sour prairie]

Those are common enough at least for me (when I have showman)

[static valve]

those are just lucky moments that we say dont outweigh the downsides

[sour prairie]

Its a risky joker i know its a risky joker

I admit that

[olive crystal]

Why keep arguing its good if u understand its just gambling

[sour prairie]

Cardomancer can be really good or you can get wild cards over and over

[static valve]

okay but do you believe that from an perspective on playing OPTIMALLY, does having it in a run generally make it better or worse

on average

[olive crystal]

Or. Bc i dont have showman, i can simply hold onto lovers to not get it again

[sour prairie]

You know what I meant lol

[sour prairie]

Optimally as in least risky don't take it

Doesn't mean its not a good card

[static valve]

yes it does

[olive crystal]

If its OPTIMAL to NOT use it then it isnt good

[static valve]

if the optimal thing to do is not take it then its bad

[olive crystal]

Thats what good means

[sour prairie]

Optimal technically just means the best outcome

[olive crystal]

If the best outcome isnt to use it then it isnt good

[static valve]

and playing optimally means playing in a way that gives you the highest chance of the best outcome

[olive crystal]

^^^^

Illumi better at explaining stuff then me

[static valve]

and almost always the choice that gives you the highest chance of the best outcome is not taking showman

like im not saying it cant be fun

and the ways in which it makes your run worse arent crippling

but if we're talking from a perspective of: "does taking this joker usually improve your run?", then its bad

[sour prairie]

I really don't think it needs to be redesigned is all

[static valve]

i dont either

[sour prairie]

Yes I agree

[olive crystal]

Honestly id like showman more if it was crippling, it would explain it being a "show" man, it could be a really fun challenge joker

[static valve]

im just here to argue about showman being a bad joker i dont actually think it needs a redesign

[olive crystal]

I think it needs a buff

[static valve]

i like what it adds to the game in terms of flavor

[olive crystal]

I dont exactly agree with the presented redesign

[static valve]

its hard to redesign showman in a way that makes it good, while also preserving what it currently does in a way that is easy to understand

[sour prairie]

Parhaps not redesigning it but instead making new jokers (and consumables) that would synergise with it

[olive crystal]

What it could do is allow dupes of whatever spawns on the far left or right of a pack, so u can still get dupe consumables in shop but also block them in packs.

I think that would be enough

[sour prairie]

Then its far to unnoticeable

I think more outside things to garentee stuff would be good

Like telescope voucher

[olive crystal]

By not spawning 2 out of 15 but still allowing dupes?

That would make showman at least nuetral-ish

[sour prairie]

It just mitigated it effect more making it so the biggest downside would be that it take up a joker slot

[static valve]

the suggestion ive seen that i think isnt terrible is to add a clause that says that jokers and consumables youre currently holding appear at a boosted rate

[sour prairie]

And I know you don't want this as a voucher

[static valve]

but obviously that does kinda overcomplicate a joker thats already pretty complicated

[sour prairie]

Yeah but it does play into what people (like me) like about it though

[static valve]

exactly, it doesnt remove the fun parts of showman, while still making it stronger overall

but it just feels too modded to me

slapping on an extra bit to a joker's effect isnt very clean

[sour prairie]

Exactly

If it was a voucher it would have pretty much no downside (besides the learning curve) but then it could have the upgraded info not feel tact on

Wow I am talking about vouchers alot

[static valve]

making it a voucher is interesting, but it still has the same issue where thats just a really bad first tier voucher

[olive crystal]

It could just be hidden in the desc. People wouldnt notice anyway

[static valve]

like you dont want your 10$ to be spent on at best a sidegrade

[sour prairie]

I totally agree

Hmm I remember a suggestion that went along the lines of. "Last played tarot card appears in next tarot packs" and I think stuff like that would also help it

[static valve]

oooh like a tarot telescope?

thats a cool concept though that feels like it should be its own thing

[sour prairie]

Yes yes I was talking about it synergy material

And yeah I really liked the idea

Its distinct from telescope but still you know obvously a parallel

[vale blade]

whats your opinion on idol

[silk grove]

"game is balanced around ante 8" overbelievers when they see a joker that has use in endless

ofc game is balanced around ante 8 but other jokers are still fun and dont need to be shot dead lmfao

[thin scarab]

It definitely has some niche use in ante 8 clears. Sure it’s not much but it’s above par with say seance in that regard

[olive crystal]

Thunk literally said it was and he made the game

Youre allowed to be wrong just dont bloat it

Endless isnt even balanced lol

[static valve]

the problem isnt jokers having use in endless, its jokers being EXCLUSIVELY good in endless

[olive crystal]

Idol is niche but it can benefit a build, esp if you get an early trading card and hanging chad,

[static valve]

like mime is a great endless joker and its good for ante 8

nobody is saying to buff mime

[obtuse basin]

someone link to the top of the page im not scrolling all the way up on mobile

[static valve]

uwu owo

[distant wave]

Can’t you tap the top of the screen?

[obtuse basin]

thanks

[distant wave]

That’s what I always do

[obtuse basin]

honestly I do like the idea

[obtuse basin]

doesn't work for me

[distant wave]

I LOVE DISCORD MOBILE!!!

[olive crystal]

Were not claiming you shouldnt be allowed to have fun, were saying showman sees no use in gold stake and thats a shame BECAUSE IT IS A FUN JOKER

[distant wave]

Honestly im fine with showman because at least it does something unique which might have some use gold stake, idol is just scoring though

[olive crystal]

The fact its essentially just a gambling joker makes it unviable in GS

[obtuse basin]

showman is bad because the chances of him doing something worse than nothing are a lot higher than the chances of giving you an extra blueprint

[olive crystal]

You can use it in gold stake, it just hurts packs so its not good outside of rerolling for dupe jokers

[distant wave]

Even just a second rebate or something is strong enough

[olive crystal]

Its interaction with the three consumable packs is lame

[distant wave]

Yea I’m not saying it’s good, but it’s at least unique in its utility

[olive crystal]

What makes it Unique is whats makes in unviable if your goal is to win as often as u can

Like mine, lol i play to win

[distant wave]

I’ve gotten c++, it’s not the worst joker

[winged pivot]

mb fellas

[olive crystal]

Mathmatically it is

[winged pivot]

didn't mean to throw an incendiary grenade

[distant wave]

No it ain’t

[winged pivot]

showman isn't the worst joker i just had a stroke of genius or i thought I did at least

[olive crystal]

Not this again

[distant wave]

It makes packs slightly worse, which sucks but it has some nice utility and it’s the only way to get an easy dupe

[olive crystal]

Way worse**

And its not an easy joker dupe

[winged pivot]

Figured it'd align with the showman theme because its showing fancy jokers off

[olive crystal]

You only have like a .7% chance of finding a specific joker

[distant wave]

Easier than ankh though

[olive crystal]

0.7%~

[olive crystal]

._.

[distant wave]

Other than showman you have to rely on invis which kinda sucks with eternals

[winged pivot]

probibility

[distant wave]

I have a bachelors degree in software engineering and I’ve done plenty of stuff with stats and probability, just because you have some qualifications doesn’t mean that others can’t too

I’ve formed my own independent opinion on the joker with my own background, and that’s my opinion on it. You’re not inherently more right just because you wrote a proof for a subjective game

[winged pivot]

would it be better as a separate joker

[thin scarab]

Yes

[silk grove]

not saying the game is not balanced around ante 8 i'm saying it doesn't have to drive every single decision made in the game