Resurgence (WIP) - Primordial Arts

[west condor]

finally

ill turn on other mods i disabled and will see

[night prism]

this is so funny @static finch

[west condor]

nevermind one of disabled mods crashes textures again

[static finch]

respite

brief

[west condor]

im losing it slowly

yep

unstable/unstableEX and entropy

caused allat

i disabled these 3 mods and everything works i guess

[static finch]

bruuuh

[west condor]

ill pack it up and go back cuz without entropy ur modpack looks like mine

almost

[static finch]

rip

[west condor]

anyways tysm for help

u both i mean

i will wait for next entropy update i guess

[static finch]

fair enough

[dusty river]

back online, what I miss, lol

[static finch]

nothing

just troubleshooting my modpack

[dusty river]

ahh, lol

[night prism]

not much, i'm trying to make the neon shaders with bad results

[dusty river]

wish u luck!

(what's up with 42 rank, btw? I feel like it's a lil underpowered for how you're intended to get it)

[static finch]

the thing is potential

also look at the sheets

stupid op joker with it

it's just a better stone card

[dusty river]

kind of, but stone card's always score no matter what

[night prism]

not really better on it's own

[static finch]

wel lthese can have

ehnancements

[night prism]

worse actually

[static finch]

can score in actual 5 card hands

[night prism]

less chips and it does not score

[static finch]

and have a suit

[static finch]

the potential

also do 21s suck

[dusty river]

yeah, I mean, if you only have 1 the only hands you can include it in are either flush and high card

[static finch]

i don't think so

do decimals suck

[static finch]

i like flush

[night prism]

they are not incredibly rare though

[dusty river]

(yes lol, I hate unstable tbh)

[static finch]

unstable is so fun what are you on about

[night prism]

they can be made with a regular consumable

not a super rare one

[static finch]

eh fair enough

[night prism]

i think they should just be made buy a regular tarot or spectral

[dusty river]

I think, going with how unstable does it's decimal ranks-

[static finch]

as rare as the tower is anyway

[dusty river]

you should make it count as both a 2 rank and a 4 rank

[static finch]

regular tarot is good imo

spectral is in a league of it's own

[dusty river]

that'd balance it I think

[night prism]

or even music card, considering douglass adams was a musician too

[static finch]

ehhh

[dusty river]

cuz then, even with only one, you could have all the normal poker hands

[night prism]

As i've said countless times, this is impossible

[static finch]

i was about to say that

[dusty river]

but how does unstable do that then?

[night prism]

they don't

[static finch]

it just fits BETWEEN ranks

it's not a vanilla rank

[dusty river]

mhh, well that's sad :<

[night prism]

they only do that for straights

so they just need to modify the straight code

not the whole game

[night prism]

Gays*

[dusty river]

I wish it was, there's so much cool stuff we could make asdfbhsjh

[static finch]

GAYS SHALL RULE THE WORLD

[static finch]

real

[dusty river]

cryptid has a joker that gives 2 retriggers that's a common, yours's is for a specific hard to get card and is a rare

[static finch]

it's got an unboud that is super easy to get

[dusty river]

is it though?

[static finch]

aka playing 21 42s

and breaks the game to shit

[static finch]

just using the joker seems easy enough to me

[night prism]

so it's super hard to

21 42 is a lot

[static finch]

no

just playing them

[dusty river]

hold on, wait a sec

the way you worded it made it seem like a different requirement lol

[night prism]

if u have one in deck this takes 21 rounds best case scenario

[static finch]

my bad then but

[dusty river]

After scoring 42 42s

[static finch]

yeah but

[night prism]

having 5 or more is unlikely

[static finch]

mb i meant retrigger

42s 42 times

[static finch]

you can DUPE CARDS

and i demoted the tarot

to be normal

instead of darkana

[dusty river]

you're wording would imply you'd need to retrigger the SAME 42 42 times, which just sounded impossible, lol

[night prism]

then fine

[static finch]

my baaad :3

[static finch]

boykisserdance~1

[dusty river]

I honestly agree with gulag on one point here, tho, and that's that it'd be a good music card

plus it'd free up the tarots a bit

[static finch]

why music

[dusty river]

why tarot? lmao

[static finch]

it's circumstantial as a connection at best

[static finch]

cause it's easy to get

and is kind of a knockoff of tower anyway

[dusty river]

there's no logical connection to tarot tho, in the same way there's none to music

[static finch]

unstable put it's stuff in tarots

and they have no connection either

i want to directly reference deep thought

doesn't sound like music to me

[dusty river]

exactly, lmao

this is my point lol

there's no reason it CAN'T be a music card, like you're implying

[static finch]

but there's no reason for it to be one either

[night prism]

the autor of hgttg is a musician btw

[static finch]

I GET IT

[dusty river]

yes there is

[static finch]

but i didn't know that

and people won't either

[dusty river]

balance, gameplay

[night prism]

she did not

so i told her

[static finch]

i meant thematic

[dusty river]

THIS IS WHAT IM SAYING

[night prism]

language is so cool, because you can say things so that people can know them

[dusty river]

THERE'S NO THEMATIC CONNECTION TO EITHER

[static finch]

i hate language, i hate people

[dusty river]

IT DON'T MATTER

[static finch]

whelp

i get that but i want it as a tarot

[dusty river]

why

[static finch]

i have no idea how common music cards are

ms balance

and gameplay

[dusty river]

welllll, think of it like this

[night prism]

i think a tarot is fine

[dusty river]

if it's a tarot, we need to make a sigma for it
if it's a tarot, that makes all other sigma's harder to get
if it's a tarot, that makes all other tarots harder to get

the card will end up becoming a nerf to nearly every other enhancement based joker

[night prism]

no? one tarot of 22 has almost no impact

[static finch]

and also

modded tarots won't work either

we need only base tarots for sigma

[dusty river]

I know, but

[night prism]

and people are gonna play this with other mods most of the time

[static finch]

realistically

[night prism]

so they bloat the pool anyway

[dusty river]

not true, at least, not when considering our OWN tarots

I just think music card works better imo

than tarot

[static finch]

on this you are right but who said we NEED to make sigma versions for modded tarots

just lock it to base versions

and that's it

[dusty river]

😐

that's not what I said, lol

I said we need to make sigma versions for the tarots that WE make

[night prism]

also, i hate adding tarots

[static finch]

well then we won't make tarots if making tarots about our modded stuff is so bad

[night prism]

there are only 22 major arcana

[dusty river]

I just think if we do so, we need it to be, you know, like, fitting? a cool gameplay variation? that isn't just, a new rank?
I know it has use cases, but those use cases are much rarer than any other tarot, which is why I make augments they're own thing, instead of flooding the spectral pool with them or something

[static finch]

well then

if you make it fit in music cards do it

[night prism]

i disagree on this

the use cases are not less

[static finch]

they are potentially much more

but someone hates new ranks

[night prism]

a new rank as more use cases than an enhancement

[dusty river]

honestly, yes lol
at least one's as basic as "New Number"

imo

[night prism]

then say that

[static finch]

this is supposed to be better stone cards

and a reference

[night prism]

instead of saying it doesn't have use cases

[static finch]

and you hate unstable but those aren't just new numbers

[dusty river]

but it doesn't have an "Always Score"

[dusty river]

that's cuz, to me, they don't have many

[static finch]

and?

[night prism]

it's a worse stone card

[static finch]

it can have everything else

[night prism]

but a better rank

it's a different thing

[static finch]

worse base card vs stone card

but better potential and works with hands

[night prism]

they have the same use cases of vanilla ranks

objectively speaking

no opinions here

[dusty river]

they don't though, because, most starting decks start with 4 of each rank

[night prism]

and unstable is the proof that they have many since they create so many powerful builds

[static finch]

and?

unstable doesn't make people start with modded ranks on normal decks

they still work

and well

[dusty river]

making a new rank to add to the deck with tarots is like using abonded deck and trying to turn all your tens into jacks and running a face card deck

[night prism]

but a tarot makes it easier to get than all other ranks

[night prism]

no

because no tarot makes kings directly

also face cards are both weaker and easier to get other ways

so that's a stupid move

[static finch]

that's different, strength has different outcomes

[static finch]

also the whole point is to not have face cards

[night prism]

yeah

[dusty river]

I just don't like em, imo

like I said, I'm honestly fine with the rank, as long as it has SOMETHING other than just base chips

[static finch]

"i'm not playing the game like i chose to, so this sucks"

[night prism]

this is just taste

[static finch]

do stone cards have SOMETHING other than chips and scoring?

[night prism]

don't say that they don't have use cases when one of the most famous balatro mods proves you wrong

[dusty river]

STONE CARDS ALWAYS SCORE

[static finch]

NOBODY USES THEM

[static finch]

AND?

[dusty river]

I DO

I USE STONE CARDS

[static finch]

WELL CONGRATS

[night prism]

can u stop this?

[static finch]

nah

[night prism]

42 has nothing to do with stone cards

[static finch]

jokes aside, we already explained the point

and if you wanna make a music card for it you do it

i have no idea for the theming

[night prism]

again, we can't change your preference, but they objectively do work on a game design standpoint

[dusty river]

I think we're complaining about opinions at this point lmao, we aren't even really talking about what we want for the mod, lol

[night prism]

so if u don't like them just say so, no need to justify yourself

[static finch]

you know who started this?

[dusty river]

thank you for this as well

[static finch]

i conceded 20 mins ago

go make a music card or whatever

[night prism]

i think u sometimes try to hard to rationalize your preferences, when they are really just a vibe thing most times

you can just say something with no explanation

you have that power

[static finch]

even then, that's what i end up doing :3

i get it

but if i already told you to do whatever you asked there's no need to push further

[dusty river]

yeah, I think it might be another trauma thing, lol
people demanding you explain why you think something, even as basic as this, it'll do that to you

[night prism]

this is common actually

[static finch]

well i don't need trauma to be verbose and unecessarily annoying so

:3

[night prism]

not sure if it has a name in psychology

[dusty river]

but yeah, I think I have some ideas cooking for 42 rank, how I can buff it a little, and fit it into being a music card (name aside, that's gulag's thing cuz Idk anything about music, lmao)

[night prism]

maybe it's just an insecurity thing

[static finch]

ah yes, i love unofficially handing you my idea for you to run amuck with

[night prism]

no idea for the name honestly

[static finch]

well at least tell me what you wanna do with it

i think it's good enough as is already

[night prism]

a tarot called "life universe and everything" would have been funny though

not sure for the music card

[dusty river]

sorry, lol, the idea's simple really, just an idea to kinda bring back what we were talking about with it counting as a 4 and 2, but in a way that actually should be codable this time

[static finch]

that's got "the universe in it's fucking entirety" vibes

[static finch]

i don't see why it needs a buff

also how do you apply this to a rank

[dusty river]

wdym?

[night prism]

imo ranks should not have effects

[static finch]

on a code basis

yeah

what i was sayin

[night prism]

they should just be ranks

enhancements have effects

[dusty river]

but-

[static finch]

if you're about to say "but decimals"

YOU JUST SAID YOU DON'T LIKE THEM

[dusty river]

you know what? no

I have learned this

[night prism]

also they don't really have effects

[dusty river]

I am just gonna say "not imo" and move on here

[night prism]

they are just a lil weird

[static finch]

huh

wdym

[static finch]

touchè

[night prism]

they have no effect, they just are in between values

i think ranks should't have effects since they just represent numbers, they are meant to be the simple base for the game

[static finch]

agreed

but someone decided we can have double standards

[night prism]

also i don't like ranks, enhancements and editions all feeling the same

add paints too now

and seals i forgot

[static finch]

seels

[night prism]

i design each of those differently

[static finch]

gulag being ultra based as usual

[night prism]

in prism or whatever else

[dusty river]

I mean, to be fair, enhancements and editions being similar is also base game a lil

[night prism]

kinda

[dusty river]

holographic and mult cards are just a difference in number

same with foil and bonus

[night prism]

editions are just general buffs, while enhancements usually add more complexity

with the exception of bonus and mult

editions are meant to have simple, always useful effects

while enhancements are something you build around

which is supported by the fact that u can chose what enhancements to get

while editions are all random

since they are just generic buffs

[static finch]

and seals are playing card focused

[night prism]

seals are more something on top

they don't have major effects like enhancements

they can be good in combo with something else though

[static finch]

i'm a seal you say :3

[night prism]

each of those fills a specific gameplay need

and this makes the interaction between them fun

[dusty river]

btw, u were both asleep, but I made toriel

her head's a bit big tho, lol

[night prism]

little things like these are how thunk made a simple game like balatro so good

[night prism]

yeah, pretty big

[static finch]

good but the tag is weird

[night prism]

but i like it

[night prism]

i assume it's meant to be the ingame dialogue box

[dusty river]

yeah, lol
it's also the same one I used for alphys

[night prism]

i like it tbh

[static finch]

yeah but

i dunno it just looks out of place to me

can't say i see well anyway so

ignore me

[night prism]

i think niko will look cool with the yellow one

[static finch]

indeed

:3

[dusty river]

(it's also totally not a decision I made cause I couldn't figure out how to make the base game legendary font, lmao)

[static finch]

based

asf

actually

[dusty river]

I like how they turned out, tho, lol
the name boxes are pretty good, imo

[night prism]

u can just copy paste the letters

that's how i did it for prism

[static finch]

how are you going to make stuff that doesn't have letters in the base game jokers

steal from jen's?

[night prism]

use a bit of imagination i guess

[dusty river]

😐 you talk about theft a lot for someone who-

[night prism]

also all the letters in alphys and toriel are in the base game already

[static finch]

who?

[static finch]

mine was a pure hypothetical

[dusty river]

slips on banana peel and dies

[static finch]

bruh

mario kart moment

really tho i like stealing :3

[night prism]

they preceded us @dusty river

[dusty river]

lmao

[night prism]

and the shader looks so much better too

[dusty river]

ok, so, you aren't gonna believe this, lmao

[static finch]

ah yes

[dusty river]

idk, I like our shader imo

[static finch]

i said that a while ago

[static finch]

doesn't matter as it's an edition

[night prism]

indeed

[dusty river]

I maaaay have been the one to suggest those, lmao

[night prism]

i think i'm gonna look at their shader for inspiration though

[static finch]

the saboteur

[static finch]

MMMM THEFT :3

[dusty river]

spy tf2?

[static finch]

i have a stupid amount of time on spy

[night prism]

no no, just non consensual borrowing

[static finch]

https://discord.com/channels/1116389027176787968/1364598722637336598 WHY CAN'T WE HAVE ARTISTS TURNING UP LIKE THAT

[static finch]

CNC?

[night prism]

well, no

just NC

[static finch]

sorry~1

[night prism]

that artist is very good too

[static finch]

unfortunately

[night prism]

@static finch i hate the mod that adds the exit game command

i pressed it unintentionally so often

[static finch]

i love it

for testing n stuff

[night prism]

this may actually go somewhere

[static finch]

PAINT THE WORLD

RED

[night prism]

made this already

[static finch]

me when ://seed

[dusty river]

a bug's happening rn where any value alterations of a negative joker makes you lose a joker slot 😭 😭 😭

I'm losing runs left and right with this absfnkgbdhfk

[night prism]

this explains a lot

i encountered similar issues

[dusty river]

it appears to only be some forms of value altering, which is weird, namely, the ones from cryptid

ours seems to be going fine (aka lever)

well that's good at least, it seems our mod is not the culprit

as the bug still happens without it

it's entropy lol

I'll report this rq lol

[static finch]

aww dang it

[night prism]

who could have guessed

entropy is truly becoming the new bunco lol

well, it's better than bunco

[static finch]

it is

it's just brokey

entropy is the new jen's

[night prism]

it's in early development still

so i'm hopeful

[dusty river]

she said it should be fixed now, I'll try updating it

[night prism]

do you like these @dusty river ?

i prefer them personally

[static finch]

zespy~1

[dusty river]

mhh, yeah! they look good
tho, maayyybe a bit too shiny, lol

maybe- idk

[static finch]

i like shiny

[dusty river]

I do too!
but, I mean, this is Paint we're talking about

[night prism]

lead paint

[dusty river]

personally, I like blue a lot more than red here, I think a lil shiny is good, but

the blue is a good amount I think, but to me, it feels like red has a bit too much shine imo

[night prism]

this is inherit to the color

the shine is the same on both

[dusty river]

mhh, maybe, hmm
I think the way the shine here works is by, like, turning off the color part way, right? instead of turning it to 0% opacity in the middle, try having it at, like, 40%, maybe?

[night prism]

all new paints are in game

you can test them using the consumables i made @dusty river

though black and white have no consumable rn

[dusty river]

okey 👍

[static finch]

POKEMON GAMES

[night prism]

i'm not sure about adding all the paint shades honestly, making all that shaders and making them look different is not easy

i think it will become a mess honestly

[dusty river]

I've thought that might be the case, honestly

mhh, we could try mixing them up a bit in some way? visual wise?
like, I think the neons having a slight glow would make sense

[static finch]

i don't really care as one can JUST READ, honestly

[night prism]

it's not a readability issue

it's that they just look bad if they are all the same

stuff like, black, dark gray, light gray and white are to much imo

i like the neon ones though

since they will be distinct because of the glow

but i have no idea how to make that

[dusty river]

what I meant was, like, we could come up with similar stuffs for the other types as well

[night prism]

i've been trying to get the glow to work but i failed so far

[night prism]

i guess

but then i'd rename them

[dusty river]

fair

[night prism]

not just light and dark

[dusty river]

maybe make it so it's different with how much of the joker gets painted?
like, maybe Light would work kinda like polychrome/dichrome and Dark would almost just be, like, a fill tool, lmao

I can concept art these, but I know that probs wouldn't be that helpful

[night prism]

though that makes editions impossible to see

the paints are already a bit lighter to leave the edition visible

[dusty river]

hmm

[night prism]

i think changing the type of paint rather than the color would be nice

like neon

same color but with a neon effect

[static finch]

i'd butt in this discussion

but

i can't see shit so

[dusty river]

hmmm, you know, maybe I can take a look in the shader myself
I need to get around to learning how to make shaders at some point

[night prism]

i have no idea what i'm doing myself

so i can't really help much

[static finch]

for once you're not competent in something

[night prism]

for once

[static finch]

just once

[night prism]

i'm good at everything else obviously

shaders are my only flaw

[dusty river]

yeah, I have no clue about anything I'm looking at here, lmao

[static finch]

real me

[night prism]

i can lead governments, project cities, build spaceships, but shaders are my Achilles' heel

truly a shame

[static finch]

ikr

a man of many talents

[night prism]

we need a windows solitaire edition

this shit looks so good

[static finch]

8-bit edition?

or 16

[night prism]

well, what would it look like?

just lower res?

that would be ugly as fuck

[dusty river]

I wish I could translate my art into editions, lol
I can make this stuffs manually, in krita, but

[static finch]

ruining things is my expertise

[dusty river]

like, check this out
this'd be an awesome edition

[night prism]

the annoying thing is that if u look online you can find so many shaders, but since balatro uses i slightly different formatting than glsl you can't use them, even thou it's really the same language

and i have no knowledge on how to translate them to the balatro version

[static finch]

RJB

[night prism]

this may be useful, someone remade the foil shader for godot, so maybe by looking at this i can see if i can do it the other way around

[dusty river]

ooooh, nice!

like-

[static finch]

this is SICK

[dusty river]

💀 I saw that lmao

[static finch]

(suck the jimbo)

[static finch]

https://tenor.com/view/hypixel-forums-gif-23300389

[night prism]

https://blogs.love2d.org/content/beginners-guide-shaders this is fire

[night prism]

@dusty river if u want to take a look

[static finch]

you just flashbanged me

apologize

[night prism]

https://github.com/Steamodded/examples/tree/master/Mods/EditionExamples this is great too

[dusty river]

I have played around with a website before but it's hard to translate the thing to balatro do to what u said about the shaders working different lmao

I had made a shader using this, but couldn't translate it to "shader that gets displayed over a joker" sadly
https://thebookofshaders.com/edit.php

[night prism]

lol the golden shader from cryptyd is just taken from the smods example editions

[dusty river]

lmao, hehe

I will take a look at that

Rorschach edition

[static finch]

see stealing good

[static finch]

2 BEARS HIGH FIVING?

[night prism]

this is not the same though

this is for love2d

so they work the same as the balatro ones

[dusty river]

Oh! nice!

[night prism]

mhh

[static finch]

oh shit

did i not remove devil's deckbox

remove it

it breaks stuff

[night prism]

this was because i forgot a semicolon, but thank you regardless

[static finch]

i know i know ti's unrelated

[night prism]

i feel the pressure to do joker display compat for prism

but i'm to lazy

[static finch]

nah

[night prism]

fuck you players, i don't care about you

[static finch]

who uses that anyway

[night prism]

many people asked

[static finch]

imagine not knowing how your build works

[night prism]

what?

[magic sand]

https://tenor.com/view/goku-prowler-goku-goku-mad-goku-dbs-dbs-gif-11120329515669448575

Idk I just found out how many custom suits there are

[night prism]

yeah

there are a lot

@static finch which mod is the one that stacks consumables?

[magic sand]

Nopeus

Or one of those

It's from gen

Jen

The fire one?

[static finch]

incantation

[static finch]

you dumbass

[night prism]

thank you

[night prism]

that mod is so bugged

[static finch]

I know

[night prism]

then why the fuck do you have it?

[static finch]

yes.

[night prism]

it breaks andromeda

and gift card too i'd assume

[static finch]

oh boy

https://tenor.com/view/smg4-mario-bitch-do-i-look-like-i-care-no-i-dont-care-gif-16586455

[night prism]

i think i just witnessed coding magic

andromeda was working fine even though i was using a variable i never declared

and the values were right too

i'm genuinely going insane what the hell?

[static finch]

the magic

my mod pack emanates

[night prism]

this gives me ideas for an apocalyptic

this is detrimental if u have no pairs

but super powerful if u have multiple

something like this can be used for an apocalyptic i think

[static finch]

oh god, more M jokers?

[night prism]

this one is cool thought

[static finch]

surely

i don't like m jokers

too much

[night prism]

neither do i

[static finch]

it's too binary of a choice imo

[night prism]

but this effect is very cool

and it has little to do with m jokers

more to do with 8s

[static finch]

eh

fair enough

[night prism]

though what do u think of something similar for an apocalyptic?

[static finch]

it is a good idea but

[night prism]

similar to unmovable object in a way

[static finch]

what do you have in mind

[night prism]

not sure

i just saw the joker and thought of this

was a bit surprised to see an entropic with such a big downside

[static finch]

hm

they are more extreme than exotics

so i'm not surprised

[night prism]

i keep saying that rn i feel to many of our high rarity jokers are too convoluted, but without too much depth

almost jen's like

[static finch]

hey.

you know who made primordials.

[night prism]

both you and railgun did

[static finch]

how many did i make

vs how many did she make

tell me

which ones are the worst offenders

i guess

[night prism]

not sure, i didn't check who made them

i don't really care

but i feel some lack synergies and are just very strong in a vacuum

[static finch]

well tell me which

i may be dying but i can still think

[night prism]

most exotics from cryptid are useless alone

[static finch]

i guess if they're not mine i can still suggest stuff

[night prism]

why so dramatic?

[static finch]

i got stomach pains

and allergy

and constipation

and a pseudo-fever

all at once

[night prism]

in general, i feel most primordial effects aren't very "primordial", other than being very strong

[static finch]

is that not the point

also specify

are those primers

you're talking about

[night prism]

i'm talking in general

like, something like scalae has a very unique and game altering effect

it feels like it should be on a super rare joker, because it redefines how the basics of the game work

[static finch]

where the HELL did all of these jokers? come from

this is ultra boring

ngl

like, just normal joker? made sense

but a series is so uninspired

[night prism]

wdym?

i don't follow

[static finch]

go look in primordials

[night prism]

and?

i think i'm being misunderstood here

[static finch]

these damn things are super boring

i'm not talking about what you said

[night prism]

ah, ok

[static finch]

i'm saying these joker variants with the ?s

are literally jen's

[night prism]

i was confused

I feel to many of them either feel like regualar jokers with numbers pumped up, or very complex but without a distinctive idea

or a gameplay gimmick

[static finch]

well uh

show them

i can think of reworks at least

just tell me WHICH

[night prism]

this is not a directed attack

i'm more questioning the design philosophy as a whole

[static finch]

well it is a directed attack

then

the idea was not mine

@dusty river ?

[night prism]

the idea is fine

[static finch]

"the whole identity of the mod"

[night prism]

i feel the application is a bit confused rn

not really bad

[static finch]

well uh

what am i supposed to do with it

[night prism]

just i think more consideration should go into the effects

specifically on the gameplay implications

what really matters for a joker to be good is for it to encourage interesting decision making

this is true for any game mechanic really

the complexity comes from the complexity of the choices, not the inherit complexity of the joker

again, i'm just talking generally

about things i learned doing game dev for years

[static finch]

congrats to you

but this still doesn't tell me what i asked

[night prism]

i'm far from being an expert lol

i'm just brainstorming here

[night prism]

well, i think we must approach this with a different mindset

[static finch]

i'm blueprinting

we gotta kiss now

[night prism]

sure

like, i don't care about listing ideas i don't like because that changes nothing

[static finch]

so what do you propose

[night prism]

ah, i'm struggling to articulate what mean

[static finch]

figures

[night prism]

i'm bad at expressing myself

[static finch]

you mean we gotta lay down some guidelines to make the primordials

or else we lose sight of what makes them unique?

[night prism]

that too

but in general i think me must take a step back

and question ourselves what we are trying to achieve

[static finch]

exotics but better i think?

[night prism]

this for sure

i guess i'm making more of an abstract discussion here, on game design in general

because it's true we are modding an already finished game

but we are making substantial changes to the games balance and gameplay loop

[static finch]

the update is coming guys i swear

[static finch]

what's the fun in modding if you don't break the game a bit

[night prism]

and there are so many things to consider a lot of things

like the thing i said earlier about enhancements editions and seals

[static finch]

things

[night prism]

how they are all slightly different

[static finch]

sometimes subverting expectations is fun

[night prism]

but that serves a clear porpouse

[night prism]

i agree

i think is this case we must think of it backwards

first consider what we want to game to FEEL like to play, an then how to achieve that

because the mechanics are all functional to that

that's the ultimate goal

i didn't have to question myself much when doing prism since it tries to preserve a vanilla feel

but this mod is way more radical

i feel this is the main reason jen's fails as a mod

it didn't consider this enough

if at all

moral of the story: game design is hard, and we can't just print ideas and expect everything to work

[static finch]

jen's is just an excuse to put ocs in the game

[night prism]

and that's part of its downfall

[static finch]

maybe it wasn't trying to be what we think it was

[night prism]

well, i assume it was trying to be what they claim it was

in which case they didn't do it too well imo

not terrible, actually quite impressing for a passion project

but it has many flaws

[static finch]

"quite impressing" explode

:3

[static finch]

my modest opinion is that if this is going to be as cohesive as it should we gotta scrap half the stuff that's on it at least

especially the jokers?

[night prism]

This is inevitable imo

[static finch]

YOU ARE INEVITABLE?

[night prism]

Thunk scrapped most of balatro

[static finch]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-snap-inevitable-marvel-avengers-endgame-gif-14599588

[night prism]

And thank god he did

[static finch]

if only i got to see it

i like having scrapped, forgotten, unbalanced chaos

heartbeataria and consolaria are great for a reason

[night prism]

The reality is that 90% of ideas are bound to be scrapped

[static finch]

not mine

mine are great

[night prism]

As grr martin said, you gotta learn to kill your children

Don't get to attached to stuff

Because like you had these ideas, you will have many more

[static finch]

trust me i played rimworld enough

also i was joking

[night prism]

Real

I know you were

But serously, i feel ther will be a bit of a purge, sooner or later

[static finch]

something something i've heard this one before

[night prism]

But i don't want to purge other peoples ideas

So you have to do it for yours

And railgun for hers

[static finch]

pride is a bitch

[night prism]

This is why i'm making a more general discussion here

[static finch]

if i may, i didn't do much so i'd have to kill less

at least in theory

[night prism]

Depends how much your ideas suck

[static finch]

i got told that my ideas weren't that bad

by you

and revo

and railgun

and a lot of other people

[night prism]

But i feel we have a lot of good ones

You included obviously

I think that the sheet rn is not very selective

[static finch]

yeah but some need iteration

and a bit more restraint

on adding random stuff

[night prism]

Since everithing gets trown there without much thought

[static finch]

yeah

true

[night prism]

I feel most of the jokers we coded are pretty cool

[static finch]

but i personally add something only when i think it's worth it not as a way to remember random thoughts

[static finch]

they are

i'd argue none of them need to be shot

[night prism]

I agree

But many may improve too

[static finch]

anyway, controversial opinion but lambda is bloat and should not exist

[night prism]

I feel some effects could me a bit more bold

[static finch]

incredibly agreed

[night prism]

Like, scalae level of bold

That totally redefines yhe game

Not like jen's jokers wich just give u score

[static finch]

well to be fair most of our jokers don't do that outside of commons and uncommons

[night prism]

Indeed

But i like effects that change the way you play

[minor oracle]

scalae isnt really a good example but sure

[night prism]

I guess

[minor oracle]

scalae doesnt really change how you play that much since scaling jokers are usually always best anyway

[night prism]

It was the first thing that came to mind

[night prism]

You are right, i feel i was referring to two different things

[minor oracle]

i get what you mean but scalae is just probably a bad example of it, its atleast more redefining than jen jokers though

[night prism]

Scalae is more a joker that changes the game, rather than just doing things

Not really one that changes the gameplay

[minor oracle]

that makes sense

[night prism]

Better eample would be something as simple as shortcut

That changes how you build towards straight builds

And how you play them

[static finch]

my opinion is

the rarer a joker is

the more powerful/special it should be

[night prism]

I feel special is the right word

[minor oracle]

you can get away with more shenanigans the more rare it is so its a little disheartening to see really rare jokers just be 1 billion mult & chips with some dumb condition added on to make it "unique"

[night prism]

This is my point, yeah

[static finch]

i'd argue the "+ stuff if this" is boring and useless

as a condition

cavendish works cause it's pretty common and basic

but doing this for rare stuff is stupid

[night prism]

A thing that comes to mind is an old legendary creature from mtg

[minor oracle]

you cant really get away with having super powerful scoring effects past a point but you can atleast make it interesting

iterum is a relatively okay example of this

its basically just a billion xmult but its like pretty cool i guess

[static finch]

iterum is cracked

but it's interesting because of HOW it gives mult

not because it does give mult

necessarily

universum is worthless for example

[minor oracle]

exponentia is like the most boring exotic but it also like is somewhat interesting with how it scales

[static finch]

powerful? yes

boring?

too

[night prism]

It's just a 2/2 for one white mana, no other effects

It seams super boring for a legendary

But i always argued it made sense, since no card before had the same stats for one mana without dowsides

It was unique in its simplicity

And it's just a super cool card imo

[minor oracle]

you just have to make sure things are actually unique and interesting rather than fake unique where its the exact same card but now you have to use planet cards instead of using tarot cards to scale it

[night prism]

For sure

[static finch]

equivalents are cool too

i just think they should be a cumulative small percentage

[minor oracle]

you can have your card be literally based on another card and have it be more unique and interesting than some jen jokers tbh though so

[night prism]

I feel the speciality comes from the card doing something no other card can do

[minor oracle]

not to like be super egotistical but this is my main goal with entropic jokers

they are mostly based on existing jokers but in a way where it doesnt just supercede anything entirely

basically all of them will synergise in some way with the "weaker" counterpart

which is sort of to an extent how the base game works before you reach endless

[night prism]

This whole discussion was inspired by one of your entropic jokers

[minor oracle]

which?

[night prism]

The M one

[minor oracle]

oh yeah

[night prism]

Because i sayid, that's a super cool effect

[minor oracle]

i have mixed feelings about it, i think its pretty interesting but its so strong

[static finch]

i find them brilliant

[night prism]

It feels worthy of being an entropic

[minor oracle]

i dont want the mod to just be focused on being another big number mod even if thats a part of it

[night prism]

Balance aside

[minor oracle]

i really like one of the new ones that i just made but i have to tweak the balancing a ton still

[night prism]

I feel you are doing a great job at nailing the vibe for the entropics

This is why I started this discussion

[static finch]

yeah agreed

[night prism]

I feel most jokers from this mod don't really feel like that

[static finch]

primordials feel flat in comparison

[minor oracle]

idk i have way more spare time than most people so i have more time to put effort into the design and the theming but to me it just feels like its not that hard and sometimes people just give up on it cause its easier

[static finch]

i think the secret sauce is the weird factor

[minor oracle]

i mean not all ideas work cause ive had to scrap a lot of things i just never show them off

cause im really particular about what i let in the final product

which is probably a big difference

[night prism]

I agree it's not hard

It's all a mindset thing

[static finch]

well it depends

[minor oracle]

its also why i specifically left reverse tarots until last because it would be really easy to make them half baked but i dont wanna do that

[static finch]

some people just throw every single idea they have

onto stuff

and call it a day

[minor oracle]

that too

[night prism]

That rarely works

[minor oracle]

i like to assume all ideas can work because some might be able to even if they dont seem like it but im not gonna keep them if i eventually reach a dead end

[static finch]

now it may sound like i'm antagonizing railgun but i just think she doesn't want to "waste" any idea to me

maybe i am just hallucinating

[night prism]

Rn I'm considering totally reworking one of the enhancements from prism

[static finch]

double cards?

[minor oracle]

whats the current effect

[night prism]

I just can't get it to work like I wanted

[night prism]

Yeah

[static finch]

heh

easy one

to guess

[minor oracle]

i like to think im relatively good at explaining why i dont like things even if my reasoning might not be universally agreeable

[static finch]

agreed (ironic)

[minor oracle]

which is to say i might be able to help

[night prism]

They are similar to double sided jokers

Cards with two faces you can switch at will

But the faces only have the rank and suit

Editions and Seals are shared

[minor oracle]

its definitely more applicable than double sided jokers to me tbh cause i find myself in very few situations where switching back and forth between jokers is that useful

[static finch]

i just disabled them

they're buggy and useless

imo

[minor oracle]

making editions and seals seperate might be a good way to make it more idk how to put it maybe useful is the right word

[night prism]

I really don't like them

[static finch]

in my modest opinion, you should scrap it

[night prism]

The issue is that you rarely care about both half

[static finch]

i personally find it as useless as the doublesided

jokers

[minor oracle]

idk how you create them originally though so i cant really advise on that but id make the modifications copy over when created but otherwise diverge but its still really niche

[static finch]

what about the opposite

[minor oracle]

after a certain point in the game theres really only 1 set of modifications thats best and switching back and forth has little use especially if modifications are shared so all it does is change suit and rank

[static finch]

flipping a card just switches enhancements and seals?

that'd be actually useful

[night prism]

Would it?

[minor oracle]

i can see some applications in being able to switch back and forth with in hand effects and scoring effects like between glass and gold but its a little hard to utilise

without having a fuck ton of them

[static finch]

switching seals would be useful

imo

then maybe enhancements too but that is a bit more niche

[minor oracle]

the main issue is that unless you have all your cards being double sided you usually dont have cards that could work in hand or scored since youll be at a point where anything works for scored anyway at which point just make them all in hand or youll need a super specific hand at which point youll probably just want to make them all scored so its easier to find

[static finch]

i get it still niche

but my counterpoint is: i still would prefer it if they got scrapped altogether

[minor oracle]

idk what id do with them

[static finch]

just make twins copy enhancements, editions and seals and we're done

[minor oracle]

my other idea was to somehow partially apply the backside to a weaker degree

so then its beneficial and unique in the sense that you have to now optimise both sides

[static finch]

that makes sense buuut

[minor oracle]

but thats a nightmare to implement tbh

[static finch]

how would this apply for modded stuff

was about to say that

unless it only applies one thing from the backside at random

instead of all but weaker

[minor oracle]

something like that might be a good point to work off of if you want to keep it

[static finch]

well gulag vanished so idk

nvm

[night prism]

It could just score twice

Scoring both sides

[static finch]

yeah but that's super boring

[night prism]

Indeed

But that's what u just proposed

[static finch]

no

[night prism]

Having both effects at once

[static finch]

i said to partially give flipside benefits

randomly

[night prism]

Randomly for sure

[minor oracle]

scoring twice fully is sort of interesting but then being able to flip them becomes more of a nuissance than a mechanic since you mayaswell make both sides fully visible from the start

[static finch]

my thoughts

[night prism]

This was my thought as well

[minor oracle]

some sort of linked mechanic that isnt just linked from entropy is what i imagine with them both scoring fully

[night prism]

Initially the idea was that u could discard one card to draw the other liked one

But eh

[static finch]

hey look inverse tetromino cards

[night prism]

What's that?

[minor oracle]

its interesting as well but the main issue with this is that its not more beneficial most of the time compared to just like destroying the card youd discard anyway

since like 95% of the time youd use this to just guarantee get the other card anyway

[night prism]

That's why I didn't add it like that

Feels like worse death

[minor oracle]

if it was feasible id make it so the reverse side of the card applies but weaker and that the reverse side has its own set of modifications that can be different so that you can optimise the active vs inactive side for if you want to be greedy or get more points

but this might be annoying for crossmod

[static finch]

this needs too many clauses

accounted for

[night prism]

It may also be a bit to convoluted for a vanilla+ mod

Depends on the implementation

[minor oracle]

prob

i mean a lot of my ideas are convoluted as fuck cause i dont really do vanilla adjacent stuff

[static finch]

they're super cool tho

[minor oracle]

not like its a bad thing but it just means my ideas are probably less helpful than other cases

[night prism]

This is why I'm working on multiple projects

I like both the vanilla stuff and the insane stuff

[static finch]

figures

[minor oracle]

i havent played vanilla or anything adjacent in a while tbh

[night prism]

Neither did I

But i play with vanilla adjacent mods

[minor oracle]

its fun i wont lie about that but insane mods just feel a lot closer to the feelings i get when playing tboi which is what i find to be the most fun

everything is a puzzle between the most insane possible set of mechanics and synnergies to break the game

[night prism]

There's definitely a middle ground between that and vanilla

[static finch]

something something thank you edmund

[night prism]

Which I did not find yet

Not many mods try to do that

[minor oracle]

vanilla balatro is definuitely puzzly in the same way but it feels more like waiting for rng to bless you with the right choices then being able to influence the game with every decision you make

[static finch]

something something literally tboi

[minor oracle]

tboi #1 game of all time

[night prism]

Well, it's more about playing around the rng

[static finch]

gungeon better

:3

[minor oracle]

i mean this is the exact reason i even became obsessed with balatro because im always obsessed with trying to find the perfect solution to everything and this game makes it way too addicting to try and do but some mods just like are cocaine compared to balatros weed

[static finch]

the problem is that

[night prism]

lol

[static finch]

stuff like jen's makes it too easy

[minor oracle]

yeah thats why i never play with almanac formerly known as twitter

[static finch]

and the vanilla-like mods don't raise the bar enough

[static finch]

holy

better than all my jen slander combined

lockeF

[minor oracle]

tbh i didnt even come up with it

i stole it from someone else

[night prism]

I'm looking for that middle ground

[minor oracle]

im a hack

itll definitely be interesting to see

[night prism]

Prism raises it just a bit

Definitely more than stuff like plantain

[static finch]

booo

[night prism]

Which is basically just vanilla

[minor oracle]

me personally i try to keep the average balance relatively similar but just raise the potential by a ton

[static finch]

plaintain was mafe for that

(plain-tain you get it)

[minor oracle]

i mean cryptid addon so regular balance is kinda wack either way but i try not to mess with it

[static finch]

(cause it's plain)

i'll see myself out

[night prism]

I like that

[minor oracle]

its definitely less unbalanced than some people make it out to be unless you play on like doe which is notoriously dumb but like definitely still broken even as a baseline

[night prism]

I feel cryptid messes with it too much

[minor oracle]

cause cryptid joker rarities are just not real

chad and oil lamp rare?????

who did this

[night prism]

Yeah

The rarities are all over the place

Like, half of them should be epic imo

[minor oracle]

i enjoy it for the most part though its why i sometimes play doe even though it gets boring really quickly because the absolute chaos of it is just interesting

[static finch]

me when i just stole the code for one of our jokers

[night prism]

It would be better if the game didn't crash by ante 3

[static finch]

so based

doe + negative tho

[minor oracle]

funny thing actually multiplayer mod literally completely breaks antimatter for me

[night prism]

But when playing cryptid you are playing 2 games

[minor oracle]

straight up instant crash when i start a run

[static finch]

shocker

[night prism]

Balatro and trying not to break your pc

[minor oracle]

omw to negative + infinite

[static finch]

mp mod breaks

[static finch]

real

it's a tight rope

[minor oracle]

multiplayer entropy is crazy also

i was scoring like 20,000 i look at my nemesis score and its like e1900

[static finch]

bruh

[night prism]

I never played multi-player balatro, but it feels like it wouldn't work to me

In theory at least

[minor oracle]

its really weird but nothing beats the feeling of destroying your opponent by making 1 different decision

[night prism]

Because u need to be able to win every blind

[minor oracle]

so it sorta balances out

the lives are configurable but i wish there was a different system than just if you lose, lose 1 life

[static finch]

we should make a human leather jimbo fr

[night prism]

Balatro is balanced around Blinds becoming slowly stronger

[minor oracle]

it feels so weird to me for every game to basically have a guaranteed max length

[night prism]

In multi-player scores are all over the place

[minor oracle]

cause you either: have too many lives and 1 person just gets destroyed consecutively for like 4 antes or you have too few lives and you could be relatively comparable and the game ends

i wish the differences in your scores mattered more for how longs games lasted

so if im like 2 points off it doesnt take off the same amount of time as if my opponent is ee308 points ahead of me

[night prism]

Lives definitely seem like a reasonable way to make it more doable

I should try it someday

[minor oracle]

it works better in vanilla

in modded multiplayer it falls short quickly though

vanilla mp has less variance in which builds are good so 70% of the time its either you get the same build or you lose but its more complicated than that in modded depending on what your mods are

its way more likely that you have 2 completely seperate builds that are comparable even if you play with the same seed

[night prism]

necronomicon jimbo

anyway, i hope i was clear and you understood what i was trying to say @static finch

i'm aware i'm not the best communicator

[minor oracle]

communication is difficult this is why i just automatically assume everyone else is wrong and im right and go with that instead

[night prism]

this is easier when you are not working in a team

i can afford to do that for prism

[static finch]

sort of

[static finch]

super based

[night prism]

you know what? imma code niko

[static finch]

aww

well I gotta sleep

gn chat

[night prism]

me too actually