#Penalty Notice

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

warped locust
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Lose 30 gold when obtained, X3 Mult.

tall kelp
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I think that's a neat idea. Good late game when you need some X-Mult to round your build off and am mostly spending money rolling looking for stuff.

scarlet bear
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it seems too good

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a x3 mult with no prerequisite is very busted

tall kelp
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I assume it can put you into the negatives

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And I assume Gold means $

golden depot
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that also doesnt require getting rid of your econ completely

scarlet bear
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cavendish has a prerequisite, you have to take along gros michel and get the 1/6 chance, however long that takes

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and then it has to spawn

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getting rid of your econ is also not much of a downside considering you've got x3 mult now

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it's not a permanent loss either

wraith pine
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-$20 for x2 might work better, less polarizing

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Not a joker you'd keep forever but it gets you out of a pinch

golden depot
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you're undervaluing how important a loss of $30 can be. wraith is already one of the worst spectrals

scarlet bear
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you're undervaluing how good x3 mult is

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on average, driver's license probably costs you around 30 dollars (activating it from 0 cards) and it's a very solid rare

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wraith is also absolutely not one of the worst spectrals

golden depot
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drivers license isnt that good though.

golden depot
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its never worth it

tall kelp
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Wraith is only fine if you are already super poor

gaunt briar
scarlet bear
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rare joker for 2 dollars on ante 1 or get 2 gold cards and a glass card

golden depot
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you dont see it ante 1 though

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and even then i'd prefer an ankh or hex

tall kelp
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Yeah, most of the time I see wraith it's mid-late game as I can actually afford to open spectrals

golden depot
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anyway back to the original suggestion, i think its pretty well balanced. you want to see it late to not tank your econ which i think is a nice contrast from all the jokers that are best super early

drowsy mantle
scarlet bear
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I think it's maybe better than the trio

golden depot
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trio is easily one of the better rares

drowsy mantle
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true

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I still think this would probbably work as a Rare but I also agree that x2, -20$ and rarity uncommon would probbably be a bit more healthy for the balance

golden depot
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x2 -20 would be worse than ramen which is already not great

drowsy mantle
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I dont think ramen is bad but yea x2 -20 could potentially be too weak

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definetly would need some testing to figure out the best possible version of this Joker but I like the general concept

scarlet bear
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I think it's a bird in hand vs bird in bush situation

golden depot
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what

scarlet bear
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the cost of the joker is handicapping your economy, but what could you want to buy better than a free x3 mult

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handicapping is also an extreme term you can easily have enough cash that it's not a huge loss

compact scroll
tall kelp
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30 dollars + cost of joker

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So likely $38

compact scroll
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Jesus

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That would likely only be good for late antes

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Or green dekc

tall kelp
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Yeah, late game when your econ is good and or you just need some more xmult to finish off your build

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Could pop off with wraith or judgement though

compact scroll
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I feel like it’d suck with wraith

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Set money to 0 and lose 30

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It says lose 30 when obtained

scarlet bear
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the only downside is opportunity cost which

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there's not a ton of opportunities better than x3 mult

icy minnow
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what if you got this from judgement

smoky knot
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Huge L

novel ether
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I think the issue here is that peopl who go "x3 isn't much" are those who keep thinking about this game in terms of endless, and those who say "it's busted" are those who rightfully reason about the -actual build up-, which IS this game.

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Jokers aren't meant to be designed to be for endless, if they do then it's great, but think of how useful they are when -playing the actual game-.

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And x3 when you're still building means you are easily at the next blind's cutoff value depending on which stake you're playing, so that's a huge boost.

warped locust
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That's hilarious

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X3 isn't a gamewinning boost, I've still lost with Card Sharp, Blackboard, Drivers License, Cavendish, etc.

And the reason for the loss has usually been due to a lack of econ to get further scaling.

An econ penalty of -30 is pretty brutal, and basically means the shops do nothing unless you had over 30 gold to begin with

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Think about the shops lost via Throwback, and the Shops lost via this. It creates a similar dynamic, and this one can only be mitigated by being rich, or being so lategame it doesn't matter

tall kelp
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Yeah. -30 dollars is a lot of money. If you have like 50+ dollars, it doesn't matter that much. But if you find it and have 15 dollars, you will go to -15, which credit card is considered bad. Dropping into the negatives hurts a lot if you haven't solidified your build

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3x is powerful, but doesn't solo win a game

scarlet bear
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2 antes worth of shops?

warped locust
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That's really bad. Missing 2 antes worth of shops is a run killer

tall kelp
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Yeah. Unless your build is done, shops are your main form of growth usually

scarlet bear
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again, it's a bird in hand vs bird in bush situation

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it's x3 mult

compact scroll
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x3 mult is strong but it isnt a free win

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Unless you’re scoring 400k per hand

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Or 100k if you can play multipke

golden depot
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this is a lot harder to fit in a build than say, card sharp or blackboard

scarlet bear
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the only time I could see not taking it is if you have no flat mult

scarlet bear
compact scroll
golden depot
serene saffron
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this argument is basically just:

-30 can really ruin your economy for 50% of the game

but x3 mult is really good!!!!!!!!!!!

scarlet bear
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to paraphrase northernlion, it's not called "get all the money and set up a 401k-tro"

serene saffron
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econ is an important aspect of the game

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the shop is your main method of progression and if you spend 50% of your game not being able to access it then you cant progress as well

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it wouldn't be too bad if you were already at like $25 or smth ig

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maybe nerf to like 40 idk

scarlet bear
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I'd argue one of the best jokers in the game is vagabond, which hurts your econ badly

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x3 mult will probably lead to you one-shotting blinds, which leads to more money from hands and the ability to save for interest

serene saffron
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the difference is that vagabond actively helps you progress via deck manip

scarlet bear
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I feel like everyone else is missing the point here

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it's x3 mult

serene saffron
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yes

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but -30 is a big downside

scarlet bear
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but you just said "vagabond helps you progress through deck manip"

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how much deck manip do you have to get before it outpaces a flat x3

serene saffron
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glass, steel?

scarlet bear
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xmult is progression

serene saffron
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lucky?

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also vagabond occasionally gives you hermit and temperance which can help you access stuff

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ik its like a 1/10 but

scarlet bear
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I feel like everyone's downplaying x3 mult and upselling -30 dollars

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it's not good but it's not absolutely run-destroying you can never buy anything again

serene saffron
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x3 mult is basically -1 ante right (maybe -1.5 idk)

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would you take that for $30

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keep in mind thats without the extra time

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maybe its 2 idk

scarlet bear
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how is x3 mult -1 ante

serene saffron
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lets say -2

scarlet bear
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you're also not paying 30 dollars you get it and then lose 30 dollars

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which is a very important distinction

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would you take card sharp as a rental joker and keep it for 3 antes? because this is strictly better

serene saffron
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card sharp leeches of your money in that case

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not the same

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an upfront -30 is very different

icy minnow
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immediately losing $30 is worse than losing $3 a round

serene saffron
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^

scarlet bear
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it is, but this card is also better than card sharp

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so it's roughly the same

serene saffron
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but the econ is much worse

icy minnow
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yeah but destroying your econ for a long time is usually not worth it

serene saffron
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-3 every round is not roughly the same as just -30

scarlet bear
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you ever see that family guy clip, where they say

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"peter, you can either have the boat, or the mystery box."

"The box, the box!"

"But what about the boat?"

"The boat is a boat. The box could be anything. It could even be a boat!"

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This is the same to me

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"x3 mult is x3 mult, but cash can buy anything. it could even buy the trio!"

icy minnow
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if you are scoring 10k in ante 3 or so, destroying your econ up until like ante 5 to get to 30k leaves you pretty exposed

scarlet bear
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destroying your econ? if you're in ante 3 you've probably got like

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idk 22 dollars? buying this will put you at -15

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which is like 1 ante considering you'll be one-shotting blinds

serene saffron
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lets assume you're at $25 and you buy this joker (also we'll assume you 1-shot every blind, and you purchase this after a boss)

end of small blind - $1
end of big blind - $8
end of boss - $17
end of small blind - $26

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it turns out you get your money back after only 1 ante

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not too bad

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(assuming you started at 25)

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i think this would fall off at higher stakes where your econ starts dying

scarlet bear
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that's also assuming you don't have any econ jokers

serene saffron
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yeah that too

icy minnow
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i feel like its still kindof brutal to just lose $30 if you end up getting this from something like temperance

serene saffron
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you mean judgement?

icy minnow
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judgement yeah

scarlet bear
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that's true, I don't think there are any jokers that have an immediate negative effect on pickup for that reason

icy minnow
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not having punishments that affect you even after you sell it feels like a reasonable game philosophy

serene saffron
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yeah

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maybe make it when bought?

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and make it rare for that reason

novel ether
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If you want to really hammer down the cost punishment, you could change how this works entirely. "If you enter a blind when this joker is inactive, pay 30$ to turn it active. When active this joker is x3 Mult."

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This way if you get it with judgement, you don't pay the 30$ cost

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It's only activated when you enter a blind.

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Which, technically, also fits the theme. It's a penalty notice, and if you keep up, you pay the penalty.

red orchid
daring ravine