Knights/Cavaliers

[fluid jay]

I posted this on Reddit yesterday, but I think this might me a better place for it.

I was just thinking that, with standard playing cards and Major Arcana/trump cards combined, Knights/Cavaliers are the only cards missing from a full tarot deck in Balatro. What if they could be used in some way? Maybe finding a Knight tarot card converts it to its Cavalier playing card version.

They could have a higher chip value than regular court cards, or have a mult value on them. A poker hand of A-K-Q-C-J might rank higher than a royal flush, with a better base score.

Would this be any good?

[fluid jay]

I made prototype images for the Arcana cards and the playing cards they add to the deck. I can't actually draw, so I just switched and recoloured the Jacks and added Death's horse on top of them.

[rustic briar]

There is ready a mod that add these to balatro

[stray magnet]

yeah this definitely wont be added at this point

[fluid jay]

Sorry, I generally don't mod my games. So if there is one for these, I don't know what it does or where to find it.

[vale vault]

maybe it can be in a deck of its own?

[rustic briar]

Github Awesome Balatro. It called Cavalier something I don't remember.

You may contact its author if you want to contribute

[tawny geyser]

There's one variant of Poker I've seen called Arcane Poker that treats Pages as an extra card in the deck. (Knights are used as the Jacks despite arguably being the odd man out.) They're always treated as the lowest card, even lower than the Ace in an Ace-low straight and able to form a Page-Ace-2-3-4 straight.

Also, since Arcane Poker is based on Texas Hold'em, whenever a Page shows up in the flop of the hand, it triggers an arcana draw, where one of the major arcana comes out and applies an effect to the current round.

https://raphaelaleixo.medium.com/arcane-poker-280365663cad

Maybe, in reference to this, it could have some sort of effect relating to the other tarot cards?

[fluid jay]

I just looked it up. Looks like a great concept for a custom deck in the game. I'm torn on whose Cavalier cards I prefer, though. I quite like mine, but I'm biased.

[fluid jay]

I think it's an interesting idea, but I disagree with the placement as a "0" rank card. Forgetting all about Cartomancy for a moment, tarot is a popular card game in places like France. French-suited tarot decks have Knights between Jacks and Queens. Also, some places like Spain use Knight court cards in their ordinary decks instead of Queens.

[gleaming sage]

I think this being a mod doesn’t invalidate the idea as a whole, in fact I think it would fill a really nice niche that tarots don’t have: no tarot actually creates cards. Creating a card you don’t start with is a cool idea.

[stray magnet]

Tarots don't create cards because spectral cards do

If this was added it would probably be in the form of one of those cards that destroys a random card to add some

[gleaming sage]

Yeah but spectrals do that more powerfully with cryptid and such.
The reason I think that this is a good idea because creating a card that you don’t have is less powerful than creating a random card (which would allow 4/5oaks for be much easier)

[stray magnet]

having it on a tarot would make it too easy to gain them though

tarot production is very common and people could end up getting a large amount of cavaliers way easier than any other rank

[gleaming sage]

Death is superior in that case though, since if you are producing tarots then you’ll be able to save them for when the card you want to copy appears anyway

So why would it be OP?

[stray magnet]

because builds like 5oak can be made easier if this was put on a tarot

[gleaming sage]

You’d have to get 4 calveries to make it as good as any other playing card first.

[stray magnet]

and theres also the fact that its inconsistent with the current game design

[gleaming sage]

5 for 5oaks

And you need one death to start playing 5oaks

[stray magnet]

spectrals make cards, tarots dont

[gleaming sage]

Okay but… why? What stops them from doing that? Balance probably, and I’m pretty sure this is balanced. Spectrals will still have more powerful card creating abilities with stuff like cryptid.

Unless you can find something saying that, there is no “tarots cant create cards” rule

[stray magnet]

its just not consistent with the current game design, and i feel like my previous suggestion would fit more seamlessly into the game

[signal galleon]

I'd argue it would not be any better than death for this matter

deck thinning is usually something you want, so converting a card is almost always better than creating a new one

[gleaming sage]

There are times you do want to add cards, however, and I think that this would be great for those times

[fluid jay]

I think there's a small degree of gatekeeping creeping into the debate here. I picked 4 "minor arcana" cards as that was what first came to mind, since "major arcana" are in the game, and these would be new additions from a 78-card deck that are not represented in the game. That's it. It didn't occur to me that no other tarot card creates playing cards, and I don't care. As long as what each card does is written clearly for the player, I don't think it matters.

Also, there is no "correct" way to play this game. Yes, deck thinning is extremely helpful, but what's the players aim in doing that? Is every player aiming to create a deck of multiple copies of a single red-stamped king, for use with 2 Jokers that I probably don't need to name? I doubt it. It would be a boring game if that's the only credible goal. The goal, first and foremost, should simply be to win.

Standard booster packs add cards and destroy none. There's also no guarantee that a player will get the Jokers or consumable cards they really want either. More choice to play the game your way, I'd argue, would be better. In my experience, it's easier to get 5oak than it is to get a straight flush, a lower ranked hand. Cavaliers would be an extra option to create high-ranking straights, flushes and straight flushes, which could help when you can't get as many copies of that red-stamped king as you like.

[stray magnet]

I do have a bias against new playing cards mainly because it would be a bit confusing

[fluid jay]

As an adult, it took me all of 5 minutes to learn how to play Uno, with its Reverse cards, +2 cards, Wild cards, and Skip cards. Less time to figure out Crazy Eights with a regular deck, and the earlier effects applied to existing cards (Aces, 2s, 8s and Queens respectively). What I suggested isn't that bad, considering.

[gleaming sage]

I think the only thing that needs to become clear is what placement Cavaliers cards are, which could be done with one line of text in the tarot description

[tawny geyser]

Maybe Knights score as like

+10 chips, with a 1 in 2 chance of an additional +1 chip

[stray magnet]

that would be too weak

[rugged sonnet]

This is actually a very valid argument in my opinion

It could open a bunch of new hands as well

The only problem would be adding jokers that work with the cavalier

[rugged sonnet]

Maybe they’re just treated as a jack but have a special effect

[rugged sonnet]

oh if forgot to read this part, very valid argument too

[fluid jay]

I just Googled "clown horse." Yikes. Maybe a knight chess piece painted like a clown. I'm sure someone could pull off something cool looking with the concept.

The power of the Joker could truly be anything. In keeping with the clown/fool theme, I think it would be kind of ironic if you got a bonus for discarding them.

[rugged sonnet]

maybe there could be a joker that turns jacks or any face cards into a cavalier?

btw nobody has said it yet but the pixel art looks very cool

[fluid jay]

Ah, thanks a lot, but I don't feel I can take credit for the art. The Cavaliers are Death's horse over the Jacks, and all recoloured. Also, I'm pretty sure the tarot cards wouldn't be used in that state. They don't really match the art style of the other arcana cards, for a start.

I've been thinking of getting a 78-card deck printed out. If anything, I might use my Cavaliers to fill in the gaps.

[fluid jay]

This is the deck that I'm going to have printed, and I'm happy with the knights in this one. If anyone else wants to use it for their own projects, feel free.