1.0.1e

[hushed junco]

square was good with the old gold stake meta

[regal obsidian]

yeah i think on the whole having scalers start at 0 makes sense, but square feels like collateral damage on it

[hushed junco]

but I never rly liked high card meta, other than the high score runs

[strange bone]

That's a crazy take

[placid venture]

well the next square would be +9 and uh yeah

[strange bone]

I mean, crazy for me to hear, mb

I'm not saying you're crazy, I worded that badly, sorry

[regal obsidian]

no worries haha

[elder falcon]

i know runner techincally scales better now it feels like a nerf to runner but a buffer to square which is odd

[strange bone]

I take it all the time when I see it early on; I think it's super good

[regal obsidian]

like i said, maybe i just undervalued it

[elder falcon]

i just dont like straight builds so im less inclined to take runner now

[crude bluff]

I don’t use either cards lol

[worn venture]

did 101e remove the solid backgrounds or am i going crazy

[placid venture]

yes it did

[elder falcon]

square pairs great with pants

[crude bluff]

If I would use a chip scaler, I’d probably use castle if I got lucky to get it

[worn venture]

my solid backgrounds qq

[placid venture]

now it's the swirl without movement

[elder falcon]

two pair builds with square and pants are fantastic synergies

[regal obsidian]

but i think that might be because i'm still on mid stakes on most decks and so i wasn't going for high card builds as much

[worn venture]

at first i didnt like it but then it grew on me lmao

[rugged ibex]

oh that is a lot nicer

[worn venture]

now im sad its gone

[regal obsidian]

oh yeah i've always wanted to get a spongebob run going

[hushed junco]

eh, you only need 4 straights, but I guess that's a fair point

[elder falcon]

i dont think the solid backgrounds went anywhere did they?

[hushed junco]

by the time you get 4 straights you probably find at least 1 saturn

[elder falcon]

straights are a pain to play though in general

[hushed junco]

cough cough

[elder falcon]

its fine for abandonded though

[rugged ibex]

with reduced motion setting, it's now a static swirl

[terse gulch]

It’s now the same as the normal background without moving, instead of a solid color

[elder falcon]

yea id rather just scale it with saturn instead of runner

[hushed junco]

I did most gold stakes with straights

[elder falcon]

ahhhhh my bad

i didnt realize that was the update to "less motion"

[regal obsidian]

runner could go insane with shortcut now

[elder falcon]

i know people liked it but aesthetically it felt off

[crude bluff]

Make runner a rare and scale with the chip total of the straight played. Gg

[hushed junco]

runner +20 chips, back to uncommon

😹

[elder falcon]

make runner legendary

+1000 chips

[crude bluff]

Dude that’s crazy true?

[placid venture]

at this point every joker will be a rare in like 20 years

[elder falcon]

would make people appreciate chicot more

[worn venture]

for example, i like the motion the the background can make it too much, solid background with motion is fucking kino

[elder falcon]

oops all rares

[worn venture]

lmfao

[hushed junco]

oops all legendaries

[elder falcon]

oops all oops

[hushed junco]

#1187936299655647313

🕵️

[crude bluff]

Does anyone know if the score not showing up bug is fixed?

[hushed junco]

easy enough to test, it only appears on the small blind right?

[icy granite]

Honestly 1.5 was exactly the change i was hoping for bloodstone

[crude bluff]

if I leave mid blind and come back, the score for the blind doesn’t show up

[placid venture]

not listed in patch notes so prob not

[hushed junco]

(almost) everyone was talking about X1.5 on bloodstone 🫡

[upbeat spindle]

https://discord.com/channels/1116389027176787968/1233713817159204874
i had idea for vampire to buff it while staying uncommon and 0.1

[placid venture]

oops all rares mfs when i show them

[icy granite]

Cool

[placid venture]

i don't think vampire will be made retroactive

[regal obsidian]

and then we make baseball card uncommon

[crude bluff]

Baseball card being uncommon is cursed

[upbeat spindle]

just vampire duplicates not both scaling really kinda sucks and making it retroactive like that is the only way to make it mechanically work

[crude bluff]

Also btw I think this channel is meant for bugs and feedback. Don’t wanna be that guy but yeah.

[hollow briar]

baseball card being uncommon is worst stencil the little you have but better the more you have

[regal obsidian]

oh i hadn't thought about this

[crude bluff]

idk if suggestions are allowed here

[placid venture]

yeahyeah i forgot

discussions should go into #🎙・server-chat

[hushed junco]

seems to not happen anymore? I tested ante 2 small blind, didnt get it

I restarted game as well

[regal obsidian]

i feel like maybe that should be a change made to vampire, it can gain mult from other vampires removing enhancements?

[elder falcon]

this isnt a discussion thread like the other one was?

[regal obsidian]

because i think every other xMult scalar stays aligned with each other when duped

[placid venture]

­

[elder falcon]

👍

[crude bluff]

Yeah.

[regal obsidian]

anyway i appreciate y'all cooling down my scorching hot takes

especially on square joker, i might need to put some faith in that card going forward

i think vampire being a +x0.2 rare is the one i'll stand by, but it is still an opinion lmao

[crude bluff]

I like uncommon just so it sees more play. I have played a lot of the other experimental and didn’t use it more than a few times lol

but i see what you mean. That’s a valid option too

[mint summit]

magic trick + illusion rework when

[crude bluff]

Also does anyone know if shoot the moon’s visual effect triggering on disabled queens is still in the game

Like it would trigger a visual effect like it was being used but give 0 chips

[robust echo]

the changes sounds nice

[hushed junco]

pretty sure it happens with baron too?

[upbeat spindle]

more play yes, but is it worth it over just having the enhanced cards?
there’s only one joker i know of that makes enchanted cards being midas. maybe we need more jokers that make enchanced cards to inadvertently buff vampire?

[mint summit]

vampire already has enough support

[hushed junco]

tarot generators also do that

purple seal, 8ball, vagabond

[mint summit]

it's a free ante 8 win most of the time

[upbeat spindle]

true, but not quite the same as just converting the cards when played

[crude bluff]

Oh I didn’t get Baron enough to notice that lol

[mint summit]

not everything needs to have a synergy with vampire like midas

there are tarots, there are standard packs and that's ok

[upbeat spindle]

i had a joker idea that i put in a different post where if ur played hand contained 3 sevens the played hand would become lucky cards

[mint summit]

enhanced cards are key to endless and vampire will always be incompatible with that by its nature

plus endless is a meme anyway

[placid venture]

if everything is balanced with endless in mind then perkeo would've probably gotten gutted already

[past meadow]

multipliers just scale better than additive no matter how you look at it, i think it's intentional that different jokers peak in different stages of a run

[mint summit]

small nitpick but since perishable jokers are an actual thing now, maybe change the name of "non-perishable" to something else?

[mint summit]

and that's a good thing

[hollow briar]

as in food jokers?

[mint summit]

because the game would lose a lot of its strategy otherwise

[past meadow]

yeh

[crude bluff]

consumable jokers

[mint summit]

not only them, but the other basic jokers as well kind of

[crude bluff]

also has anyone else had audio bugs on the experimental patches

i feel like sometimes audio just gets crazy desynced randomly

just wondering if this is a problem exclusive to me or not lol

[robust echo]

the reduced motion is too reduced for me now 😂 i miss the old one

[hollow briar]

XD

[iron island]

eternal jokers do not exist anymore at black stake

It feels like 1 in 10 jokers are eternal

[worn venture]

I just had a run with basically all eternal jokers

Just a shit seed u got lmao

[iron island]

I actually think it's easier

not as much thinking

[terse gulch]

*busted seed

[topaz lark]

i dont use it myself but i feel like this is another one of those settings that might benefit from being a scale instead of a hard toggle like screenshake

[topaz lark]

im talking about this idk why it removed the reply

[worn venture]

Oh are swears not ok

Am sorry

[strange bone]

No, they're saying the seed is good rather than bad

[crude bluff]

ok so i just won a run with square joker, green joker, stone, vampire, and hologram on orange stake. my first vampire win since last experimental

i feel like scaling jokers might be kind of strong in higher stakes now, even though my joker rng was good

[cobalt kernel]

Where’s 1.0.1d?

[prime remnant]

1.0.1d was for the beta testers

[solar vale]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-avengers-endgame-gone-reduced-to-atoms-gif-26539274

oh no embeds

rip

[rugged ibex]

oh you're right rip

[topaz edge]

can't we just discuss stuff on a general field and not "oh it's busted on XYZ deck/setup" lol

every time I hear people say Stuntman OP because Plasma, Vampire OP because Tarot, I was like, seriously

that aside, I do agree that Stuntman should go back to +300 chips as a Rare now

[slim sluice]

i'm glad that i'm not alone in the square joker mourning, having just one element be 5 instead of 4 irks me on a spiritual level

[prime remnant]

I mean how’s this: 0 chips to start and +4 chips per 4 card hand

[topaz edge]

I have a question

what's the decision to do away with the starting chips?

[slim sluice]

it sounds fine for a common joker, even if we miss the starter chip bump

[prime remnant]

It was confusing people into thinking the cards were retroactive

And I don’t like it anyway

[topaz edge]

don't retroactive Jokers have "this game"?

and you can't really please everyone if they can't read

[prime remnant]

I’m saying it was confusing people

[crude bluff]

I’m ok with that tbh

[slim sluice]

same here, +4 vs +5 doesn't really super matter vis a vis chips

[topaz edge]

eh, if that's the only compromise possible, sure

[solar vale]

isnt that just old square but without the 16?

[topaz edge]

not a huge fan of doing away with starting chips, but alas

[prime remnant]

I didn’t like it not starting at 0 anyway though

It was inconsistent

[crude bluff]

My point was that I thought the fact that my whole build was scaling jokers was kinda interesting. Like them not being perishable might make them way better at high stakes for dependability

[prime remnant]

And it kind of goes against the scaling flavour

[hollow briar]

https://discord.com/channels/1116389027176787968/1233816991404654715

[topaz edge]

but there lies another question

do we treat all scaling Jokers equally

as in they "have a chance" to stick around, if scaling enough

or some will always be too weak to carry

Castle in particular is very hard to scale and usually not worth picking up

[hollow briar]

Ik Aliensrock had a video where he thought runner was retroactive in one of the demos since it started at 20

[prime remnant]

I think it’s a reasonable mistake to make

[topaz edge]

look, the "retroactive" thingy was simply people's reading skill

[hollow briar]

same

[topaz edge]

and we can only fix wording on Joker to an extend

[slim sluice]

maybe if square joker isn't good enough for common he could get a bump from fours elsewhere? like +4 chips per 4 card hand if you have 4 jokers or some other square theme 🤷‍♂️ might be too flavorful for common tho

[hollow briar]

thats why I asked if it would be planned to be fixed a few months ago iirc and here we are

though I dont think you saw it

[rugged ibex]

multiple of my friends assumed the same thing about the other chip jokers

[topaz edge]

I saw everyone nowadays wanting fix for the slightest thing possible, when in the old days we play the game, learn the rule and that's that

maybe I'm just getting old lol

but I'd rather fixing the wording on the Joker than nerfing it

just because people can't read

[hollow briar]

Its not a wording problem though

[crude bluff]

The problem is that it’s easy to misunderstand

[hollow briar]

^

[prime remnant]

I don’t think it’s fair to blame players for something I can change to improve their experience

[crude bluff]

I didn’t think they were retroactive. I kinda had a feeling the starting chips amounts were arbitrary from the start, but that was just me. Can’t speak for others

[hollow briar]

100% agree

[prime remnant]

If it’s a large contingent of players

[topaz edge]

in this case I see it more like dev changing game mechanic rather than trying to address wording

[hollow briar]

plus the new runner change makes it scale faster and after 5 straights is better than old runner

[topaz edge]

it has nothing to do with consistency

[hushed junco]

after 4

[topaz edge]

we have retroactive AND non-retroactive Jokers

[prime remnant]

It’s to do with consistency too

[hollow briar]

yeah after 4 mb, AT 5 its better

[hushed junco]

60 vs 60 at 4 straights

[hollow briar]

4 its equal

[hushed junco]

yep

[prime remnant]

I disliked how non retro scalers were all over the place with their starting amount

[hollow briar]

wording problem on my part

[prime remnant]

I much prefer 0 starting amount

[tender halo]

I know this isn't the right channel but I just wanted to say thank you localthunk for making such a fun game. it's been getting me through some really hard times lately and I appreciate you bringing such a dope thing into this world 👍 (I am also about to test the beta so this is relevant to the channel)

[topaz edge]

my counter argument is that they are for balancing purpose

chips are way weaker than mult

every starting hand is unbalanced in chips vs. mult, so of course mult scaling would be prefered

[prime remnant]

I adjusted scaling to compensate, but if the balance of that number is off I’ll adjust after people have tested

[hushed junco]

Tbh I dont really mind either, never really cared for such minor details. It felt nice as you could pick up runner while doing other hand and it would still do something

but for consistency sake I understand the change

[rose sand]

what if square joker was uncommon and gained 9 chips?

would fit the square number theming

[crude bluff]

is +9 chips kinda strong

[rugged ibex]

what's the difference between that and the +4 now? nevermind it's +5 now, I'm stupid

[hushed junco]

that's slower than wee

[topaz edge]

^ too weak to be of use, maybe?

[hushed junco]

+4 now without starting amount feels weaker

[prime remnant]

I think +4 could work, it seems weak but as a common scaler I’ve had good runs with it

I’m thinking about it

+9 is busted

[rose sand]

yeah it's still fine, and 16 chips doesn't really matter once you've scaled it

fair

[topaz edge]

I still think 0 starting chips weaken these Jokers too much

aside from Square, each requires specific hands/cards to be played

so you can't easily scale them anyway

[prime remnant]

Let’s test and see!

Only way to know

[dreamy spindle]

I did a square joker run on current patch (1.0.0n) and it felt fine where it was so my concern is that keeping the same scaling while removing the starting chips would make me much less likely to pick them up. That’s just my two cents though

[mint summit]

how though

[crude bluff]

I did win a run with new square recently but I had a busted setup , so hard to say what I think lol. Also patch literally just came out so lol

[topaz edge]

if you pick up Runner from Judgement / Booster Pack and unable to play Straight, it'd at least carry you very slightly until next shop. Now it's just a dead weight

[tropic tiger]

Hey sorry if this has been asked before but is hologram still supposed to be able to be perishable?

[topaz edge]

literally just got out of a Purple Stake Plasma game with Square, hard carried by Blueprint + Brainstorm

[tropic tiger]

Since I just got a perishable hologram in my shop

[mint summit]

ride the bus is the same thing

[placid venture]

hologram is retroactive

iirc

[crude bluff]

Also this might sound weird but like would runner be better if it were a scaling mult

[placid venture]

so it can be perishable

[mint summit]

no

[topaz edge]

no, it's Throwback

[hollow briar]

hologram is not retroactive

[crude bluff]

idk if there is a scaling straight joker that is mult, right

[topaz edge]

Hologram is non retroactive

[dreamy spindle]

It’s listed in the patch notes so it’s not supposed to be perishable

[rugged ibex]

No, shouldn't be possible. Are you sure you're on the latest version?

[placid venture]

right

hologram can't be perishable

[tropic tiger]

1.0.1e-full right?

[rugged ibex]

yes

[tropic tiger]

Yep I'm on latest patch

[prime remnant]

Make sure to verify file integrity

[crude bluff]

Make sure u verified integrity yeah

[prime remnant]

Because there are updates to 1.0.1e

[tropic tiger]

how do you verify file integrity?

[dreamy spindle]

Right click the game, go to I believe properties and it should be an option

[mint summit]

go to the game page on steam library -> options -> local files -> verify game integrity

[rugged ibex]

right click in steam library -> properties... -> installed files -> verify integrity

[hollow briar]

that works ig

[tropic tiger]

okay I've done it and shows that its verified although I assume I won't be able to tell if it changed it since it won't actively remove the perishable tag in the shop

[hollow pumice]

Stencil CARRY

Three more Gold Stickers to go

[placid venture]

yeah needs to be in a new run

[mint summit]

sir this is a wendy's

[placid venture]

you can run it back with the same seed though ig

[rustic cedar]

Hey, since square joker is no longer square, is there going to be a redesign to it?
(I wouldn't mind either way, but personally it doesn't make sense to call it square anymore)

[tropic tiger]

penta joker would go crazy

[low cradle]

it still procs when you play 4 cards

[rustic cedar]

Well Penta also wouldn't make sense
Penta = 5 = 5 cards

[tropic tiger]

oh true I'm silly

[dreamy spindle]

I mean 4 cards plus 5 chips=9 (a square number) so maybe it’s still square?

[rustic cedar]

Yea but the scaling now being 5 conflicts with the design

[valid hawk]

real

[rustic cedar]

And theme

[crude bluff]

I think it will get figured out eventually lol

it is experimental after all. Maybe a square has 5 sides in an experimental world

[prime remnant]

To be honest the square theme came from playing 4 cards

[dreamy spindle]

Non Euclidean balatro?

[prime remnant]

That was the original idea

So the +4 chips was a happy bonus

[low cradle]

it makes it slightly less themed but it doesn't Conflict with the theme imo

you get a positive benefit for playing 4 cards

a square has 4 sides

its fine

[terse gulch]

Would it be possible to label the smaller patches to help with bug detection?
Like 1.0.1e1, 1.0.1e2, etc

[tropic tiger]

It always funny to me whenever I see like comedically long version numbers

[prime remnant]

I really doubt anyone is on the old patch at this point, but I’ll consider it

[rustic cedar]

Isn't that what the letter is for?

[terse gulch]

Yes, but sometimes for small hot fixes that doesn’t get incremented

[prime remnant]

If I updated the letter for every small hot fix id run through the alphabet

[rustic cedar]

We make new alphabets then smh
(Understandable tho)

[mint summit]

just add another letter to the end

[dreamy spindle]

Maybe start using the Greek alphabet. 1.0.1e sigma could be funny

[mint summit]

easy

[topaz edge]

huge question

[mint summit]

v4.2.0ay

[prime remnant]

1.0.1e is already so scuffed as a naming scheme

[topaz edge]

what's in store for 1.1, and maybe if we live long enough, 2.0 =))

[prime remnant]

You’ll see 🙂

[mint summit]

workshop support

[rustic cedar]

Mickey mouse in the clubhouse type vibe

[terse gulch]

If a patch gets immediately released sometimes it might take the Steam client a sec to see if it works

[tropic tiger]

Like this is just silly

[mint summit]

an actual incentive to play challenges

[tropic tiger]

do you want like steam balance when you win a challenge

[prime remnant]

It’s right there in the name!

[terse gulch]

Like when I was testing that RNG bugfix I downloaded the version manually to confirm I wasn’t just on the old patch (that patch didn’t fix the bug by the way due to a typo in the code)

[rustic cedar]

Ok I'm curious
What do each portion of the numbers represent?
Like the last "1" is for the upcoming update
What will the middle and first numbers represent in terms of update content

[mint summit]

I get that it's a challenge, but what's the reward besides the achievement for beating them all

[rugged ibex]

I like the date format version numbers like 2024.03.01, but I guess those are bad for hotfixes on the same day lol

[prime remnant]

Playing a game you like 🙂 (hopefully)

[topaz edge]

eh, challenges are the weakest part of Balatro as of now IMO

[mint summit]

my child brain doesn't operate on that logic sorry

[cobalt kernel]

Ah. Is there any way for one to sign up for beta testing?

[tropic tiger]

No I hate this game which is why I have almost 200 hours on it

[crude bluff]

I hate what it has done to my life more than anything related to the game lol

[rustic cedar]

I'm coming up on 100 hours, soon

[placid venture]

playing the game out of spite

[mint summit]

but seriously, I don't feel as much of a pull to play the challenges as opposed to stakes for some reason

[prime remnant]

There is not!

[rugged ibex]

I mean you should play what you like? If a part of a game isn't for you, don't force yourself

[tropic tiger]

I think the increasing difficulty part of stakes might be a reason?

[mint summit]

yeah I know

[tropic tiger]

You see the slow increment of stakes very the "flat" difficult of the challenges

[ionic steeple]

what could help with challenges are the rewards/unlocks after every challenge

but i guess thats a far vision

[mint summit]

I guess you could make an argument for not having rewards for beating challenges because otherwise people would be forced to play them to unlock everything

[cobalt kernel]

That’s a shame. Oh well! If beta testing ever comes back, i’ll be first in line. Appreciate ya letting me know either way!

[topaz edge]

on the other hand, not making challenges interesting enough to replay is kinda sad

I feel like this could revamp into the beta "Daily Challenge" idea

[prime remnant]

Please keep on topic for 1.0.1e bugs/testing issues! Sorry I shouldn’t have derailed

[tropic tiger]

1984

[mint summit]

yeah this kinda turned into #1155557846805643434 sorry

[cobalt kernel]

No worries. I gotta play it when i get home

(Though that’s like next week)

[prime remnant]

Actually I might start making these threads slow mode so I can more easily go through the feedback, since that’s the purpose. Other discussion about it is fine for #🎙・server-chat

Or #🕹・game-discussion

Reasonable?

[terse gulch]

Yes

[mint summit]

as long as it's not too slow

[prime remnant]

This thread isn’t really for debating or discussion, more for like ‘this thing didn’t work’, ‘this card was too strong/weak from testing it’

The discussion can happen in the main chats

[ionic steeple]

sure!

i'll get some testing once i get back to home

[hushed junco]

Eh, such things always cause debate or discussion though, especially when someone joins in late after the discussion happens

[crude bluff]

I’m just wondering when you think it is appropriate to mention when we think something is too strong or weak

[prime remnant]

Alright thanks people! 2 min slow mode, I’ll update the post to explain

Oh you can give feedback however you want but the back and forth makes it really hard to go through when I sit down to work on it

[rugged ibex]

I'm personally still really wondering about the Illusion voucher bug to be honest

[prime remnant]

If a card seems good/bad, if you have bugs, if you have issues with anything in the patch

[terse gulch]

One (probably bad) way to fix Square Joker’s aesthetic issues is to add a chance-based effect like +4 chips, 1 in 9 chance for +9 chips
Or you could maybe change the price to $4
This isn’t that big of an issue imo, just a small appetizer for thought

[prime remnant]

I was considering the $4 change I like that. I’ll see what I can do for it

[ionic steeple]

at this point just make it +4 for 4 cards with 4$ price, screw all the balance!

[hushed junco]

Less of the experimental patch question, since you mentioned a better feedback system is coming for localizations - are there any plans for other languages? People have been asking this question very often in #1208187183832236042

[prime remnant]

Yes at some point, that will likely be part of the better system we are implementing as well actually

[sour sleet]

Had a bloodstone reliant run on gold stake last night, still hit pretty good scores though so 👍

[robust echo]

I really like all the balance changes this patch. Especially the ones on non-perishable scaling jokers. Finding a perishable scaling joker was very un-fun. All the balance changes seem good. I was surprised to see Square Joker go up to 5 chips, but making him a tad weaker earlier mitigates that somewhat, which i did notice on the run i played with him this morning

My other comments is was not changed in this patch:

1. 'The Idol' and 'Showman' - these are cards that help runs push into super high antes, but i find they are only very very rarely useful in Ante 8 gameplay.
2. The vouchers Magic Trick and to a lesser extent Planet Merchant feel a bit more situationally dependent than the other 14 vouchers in the game
3. Should Seed Money exist in Green Deck? Finding it is kind of lame in that deck. Same for To The Moon.

[ionic steeple]

i dont mind idol and showman being purely for endless since most of the jokers are purely ante 8, 10-11 at max

[onyx summit]

The idol can be a somewhat niche benefit in checkered or abandoned deck at least

[obtuse forge]

we be poppin in #1207805254272557166

[primal hornet]

Showman Moment

[crude bluff]

I mostly agree with what you said. Even though I have done a lot of high score runs, I do not like idol. I wish it were based off rank of a card, but that might be too strong, but yeah I really dislike the idol. i just feel like from playing a lot that i rarely ever want to use it

[obtuse forge]

one is a legendary joker that will improve your run and take it to the e's

the other is chicot

[terse gulch]

You should use The Tower for the blackboard synergy

[leaden drift]

I think the bloodstone nerf is too harsh

Pre-nerf bloodstone [assuming all 5 cards hit]:
2^5 = 32x mult

Nerfed bloodstone:
1.5^5 ≈ 7.59x mult
This is a 76.2% nerf to the mult.
I think this is too big of a nerf to a card that already has a 1 in 2 chance to hit anyway. The mult being 1.5x makes it a less reliable ancient joker in most cases, since without oops all 6s it doesnt even guarantee to hit that mult, whereas with ancient you just play any suit it asks for and you get the mults, no RNG attached

Proposal: 1.75x on bloodstone
1.75^5 ≈ 16.41x mult
This would be a 48,7% nerf to the mult. Almost equal to cutting the mult in half. I think this would be the best case scenario to make bloodstone not too strong, but not too weak either.

[indigo pendant]

That's a really bad way of looking at the bloodstone nerf, considering that hitting 5 times is very rare without 6s.

Also ancient is a completely different scenario anyway. You can easily guarantee a 5 heart hand every round through deck manipulation, whereas Ancient you have to adapt to differently every round.

[leaden drift]

you can adapt to ancient by not manipulating suits, simple

[robust echo]

bloodstone nerf was much needed, its still the most OP of the single-suit jokers imo

[onyx summit]

With ancient joker, playing additional flushes is very difficult

[sour sleet]

can we talk about how seeing a 7.59x mult on one joker for something easily attainable is seen as...bad? lmao

[mint summit]

nah bloodstone is fine

[ocean forge]

i savescummed after this but C'mon.

[leaden drift]

the 7.59x isnt guaranteed? you need all cards to hit the 1 in 2 chance if you dont have dice

[mint summit]

1.5x mult 97% of the time, works with retriggers and enhancements

[robust echo]

random thought about the scaling jokers - what if they started with some sort of scaling built in, if you found them later on in a run. not enough to make them OP. but like, imagine if square joker had 5 more chips or so each ante, for ex. so he starts with 0 if u find him in ante 1 but if u find him in ante 3 or 4 he's got like 20 chips alrdy

green joker shows up at ante 7 and hes got like 6-7 mult on him or something. enough to make it situationally useful while also not OP. so that its not a completely 'dead' draw late in a run

[ocean forge]

fuck you violet vessel

[obtuse forge]

another victim to the merciless cup

[hollow briar]

the more scaling gets changed, the more powerful luchador becomes

[willow galleon]

Luchador undoes Violet Vessel's scaling?

[plush violet]

I think making Bloodstone rare instead of mult change would have been better

[green cove]

it would be inconsistent with the other suit stone jokers

[plush violet]

Ig :/

[tiny heron]

then buff all suit stone jonklers and make them rare, easy

[dusk gull]

When do you plan to release the patch?

[hoary path]

The thing about straight builds is that they're a medium level hand to play with 5 cards, but it's difficult to make straights easier to play

Editing the deck with death or strength makes straights harder to get, and editing suits is only good for straight flushes which are even more niche, so the only ways to make straights stronger are with enhancements, jokers, and Saturn. Runner right now is as balanced as can be and is kinda THE straight build chip joker, with the change, now it can only be used for that instead of the tag along 20 chips before getting fired. Perfect imo

[ionic steeple]

with straights consisting 5 cards and saturn giving a lot of chips, runner feels kinda redundant, but i guess its common after all and it still can be a chip resource for non-straight runs (playing a couple of them and then sticking to hc/pair for example)

[twilit silo]

For Square Joker, what if it gains +4 Chips if played hand has exactly 4 cards, gains extra +1 Chip for each scored A, 4 and 9?

[robust echo]

For the first shop - would it be considered to make it such that jokers that cannot be purchased are not able to appear?
so for example 6gold max on black deck

it would be nice if the 2 items shown in the first shop you can always buy, if you want, assuming u won first round in 1 hand. Hitting 'bricks' when there wasnt anything u could possibly do otherwise to avoid, is not fun IMO

[brazen perch]

Gib back 1/3rd bloodstone 🙏 . Call it a day. (still bad, but ig it's 'inline' with the other flush jokers lol (As in all trash))

[iron agate]

I think the buffoon pack was enough it just shouldn't have stickers

[robust echo]

the pack is nice yeah but idk hitting bricks in the first shop (as in stuff u cant afford) when there is literally nothing u can do otherwise is kind of not fun for the deck building aspect IMO.

doesnt seem like itd be mega game altering to do that change other than to make more enjoyable experience

[iron agate]

but then you wouldn't have runs where you open a spectral pack and find immolate or take a credit card and instantly are able to buy that shiny card in the shop

[robust echo]

yeah it would theoretically cap the upside of a 'best case' round 1 shop but those are pretty few and far between.
or alternatively let black deck start with 1 extra gold lol.
that would allow for what you describe to still happen
does someone have a chart of the card prices somewhere? im curious what shop 1 jokers arent purchasable on black deck that are on the other decks

Oh other minor things:

• on baseball card, the card logo in the top right looks a bit like a joker tag, given same shape/location
• on hologram, the joker tags are behind the joker (maybe the only one this happens on?), and it makes them a bit harder to see - specifically when you have one of the tags in the bottom position. i guess this sorta happen on the legendary as well, so its consistent with the '3d' looks

[twilit spire]

The perishable limits are really nice, but why are there still econ jokers with rental?

[hushed junco]

What's wrong about econ jokers being rental?

[vast smelt]

the only one I could see it completely kill is golden joker

others can just scale above $3/round

[twilit spire]

considering sellable jokers cannot be eternal and scalable jokers cannot be perishable, it feels odd design-wise

[fickle kayak]

Rental doesn’t completely get rid of an econ joker’s ability though, it only reduces it

[dawn loom]

Doesn't sit right with me that rocket takes a whole two antes to begin making money, after one ante of costing money and a second ante of net zero

My god why is there a 2 minute slowmode

[prime remnant]

I have a slowmode to keep the messages here more dense with feedback - discussion can happen in the other channels if you want to go more in depth! It makes it easier for me to review everything people are saying

[twilit spire]

Here's how I see it. The stickers are meant to complicate decisions: do I take an early eternal joker to not die? Do I try to work with a temporary powerful joker? Do I skip extra blinds to keep the strong perishable around?

Rental stickers generally do a good job at that (do I ruin my econ for a blueprint?) but the whole point of some econ jokers is that they make you money. Having a rental egg or giftwrap doesn't complicate the decision: it simplified it. I don't buy it.

A joker costing and generating 3$ every round is pointless 99% of the time, save for using Temperance. Why would i ever buy something that's bad for nine rounds straight? It doesn't just take up a jokerslot like eternal does, it also actively crippled my econ! There's not a lot of jokers that would need this restriction, but a few would be helpful

sorry for the long message

[sinful tulip]

The square joker being 16 to start and +4 is thematic (those numbers are squares), the new 0 +5 scoring is a nerf for the first 15 hands, that's quite a lot of hands -- at least for the square joker, I like the flavor of the original numbers

[green cove]

hey, i reported a bug a bit ago https://discordapp.com/channels/1116389027176787968/1224458517382168730/1224458517382168730 here (minor visual bug) and it probably wont take too long to fix it

[plush violet]

^

[oblique pike]

Should Throwback still be able to be Perishable? I would have expected it to be considered one of the scaling Jokers.

[willow galleon]

It's only non-retroactive scaling jokers that had perishable removed

[oblique pike]

Ah- that makes sense. I didn't realize it was retroactive.

[crude bluff]

same with fortune teller. its retroactive scaling

[prime remnant]

come one come all, I have word of a new update about to go live

[fickle kayak]

👀

[prime remnant]

The change:

• Square Joker now gives +4 chips, was +5. Square Joker now costs $4, was $5

[onyx summit]

Funny visual bug with dragging a card during the victory screen.

[twilit spire]

its funny because square joker is just a rectangle. you're ruining the meta /j

from a gamedev to a gamedev, you're doing a fantastic job localthunk /gen

[elder falcon]

brb making an update video now

[split mauve]

Why not also go one step further and make the card for square joker a square (like wee joker is mini).

[placid venture]

flavor W

[sly violet]

unround the square joker corners

[robust echo]

i need this

[tall mica]

But he still has only 3 bells on hat ;_;

[robust echo]

Half joker and wee joker should each take up only 1/2 of a joker slot. And we need a wide joker that take up 2 slots.

[tacit tendon]

Float point joker slots would look so cursed

[oak stream]

stencil should still give .5 mult for those

[restive hinge]

Honestly good idea ngl
Would photograph work?

[limber lotus]

i'd only do that for jokers whose name implies being less smaller than a normal joker

[restive hinge]

Maybe change Cloud 9’s 7 dollar price tag to something that is related to 6 or 9?

[strange bone]

Are we really breaking balance for number aesthetics 💧

[sage snow]

obviously its the correct answer

[restive hinge]

I mean do you want Fibonacci to give +7 mult and cost 9 dollars?

[old ledge]

wait so now square joker has been nerfed even more?

[terse gulch]

Can confirm that the RNG bugfix isn't bugged itself anymore

[old ledge]

it already wasn't super good, and then it was nerfed, why nerf it even further when it was just nerfed really heavily and people already didn't like that change very much. I can appreciate the reduced cost, but that doesn't make up for it just not being very good

[upbeat spindle]

i mean pros say square is good

[terse gulch]

it got its aesthetics back
at least now its cheaper too

[prime remnant]

If I'm being honest I thought it was already good at +4 before, so I don't think the +5 was super necessary

So I think this is also fine and also better on the ol' flavour

[ocean forge]

square is rly good for high card builds, (there are better jokers but its solid)

[teal moth]

make square joker even more square 🙂 #1233586567671709886 message

[boreal fractal]

I have an idea lmao just noticed slowmode

[limber lotus]

make square joker set your resolution to a square ratio

[boreal fractal]

Square joker should give 25 dollars when you score a square number but it's banned in plasma

[teal moth]

jokers shouldn't be banned in the standard set of decks , they must be all-inclusive

reply to message below: yeah simple is better

[limber lotus]

then it could be when chips or mult are a square number
kinda confusing tho
reply to the message above: yeah, editting messages to bypass slowmode is so fun

[old ledge]

the +4 isn't the issue, it's the fact that it's +4 AND it starts at 0

[unreal moss]

yay

[twilit spire]

square joker is good because you can upgrade it every hand (as long as you're not building 5 card hands, in which case why take it)

[teal moth]

i don't really see it as an issue tbh, i just treat it like i used square joker for four hands then paid the amount

[unreal moss]

I get that they had to make square +5 to make the +0 be less of a nerf, but like, the +16 and +4 from before was so satisfying, does he really need to conform to the other scalers starting at 0? He had a reason to not start at 0.

[strange bone]

It was good back during old gold stake, when the game forced you to play high card. Without the game forcing your hand on this it already fell off massively.

If I see a Square and a Wrathful for example I can pick Wrathful and do flushes where in old gold stake I couldn't. Squared got indirectly worse because all the other non-high card jokers got buffed by the change in gold stake.

The meta changed so the hands that squared wanted is less dominant overall, making it less viable. Removing its early scaling is rubbing salt in its wound, specially when the worst part of Squared already was its earlygame - you want mult, not chips, on ante 1/2/3. That makes an early Squared a possible sketchy take, risking losing interest and killing the run, much more now that it's much worse in these early antes.

[twilit spire]

things are heating up in the Pythagoras fandom

[oak stream]

jokers are balanced around white stake though

[onyx summit]

I mean square also got buffed in that it can't be perishable anymore. I think this puts square in a good spot with the other commons, as it was a bit overtuned before

[brazen perch]

Flush is still viable but its way more annoying when all of your pieces are nerfed and can all be pershiable. This patch is like super heavy on straights and high card i feel like, its way too much. The best combo flush has (ballot+photograph or dusk) also work with straights. Feels way overtuned.

[hybrid onyx]

I honestly wish it was still +16/+4 but I understand wanting things to be more consistent across all the jokers. Losing out on the initial scaling is pretty impactful for a joker that wants to be taken early and played with low-scoring hands, and makes it much harder to take. I guess it can't be perishable anymore at least 🤷

[brazen perch]

4$ is a serious buff for high card, specifically. It's probably better than it was before.

[strange bone]

Y'all are massively coping. If you take a square joker ante 1 you are by and large throwing the run now.

You can't win the ante 1 boss and scale the joker anymore, just throwing 2 pairs at the boss doesn't win anymore. Same with ante 2 small/big blind, you need to get something else to carry you while Squared slowly builds up. It's not worth it going down an interest threshold for it

[brazen perch]

Square is almost exuclsuively used (currently) for highcard and pair builds, taken round 2 or 3 after a round 1 or 2 scaling joker. If its worse now, its slight, because the money matters a lot.

[lyric blade]

Stuntman and 3-4 xmult cards with some planets is still several million point high cards. Glad stuntman is rare now.

[sinful tulip]

The new tags have pros and cons, they offer a free jokers which is a pro, but the free joker might have a perishable or rental sticker, which is a nerf. Overall I don't see joker tags being used a lot. Maybe free joker tags should guarantee no perishable or rental stickers (eternal is useful sometimes though)?

[tacit tendon]

I'd say just let you know what's being made free

[teal moth]

i think they were made free for the exact reason that stickers can appear on them
had they've not been free the uncommon/rare/etc. tags would be even worse than before

[crude bluff]

also this is only a comment after a really good straight run i had on abandoned deck, but I like new runner. the starting chips might be gone, but after 2 straights, its already back to what it would've been at with just 1. after 4, its already ahead of old runner. could have just been my good joker luck + using abandoned, which makes a lot of hands easier, but it was fun to use and felt good. got it up to 850 before i died in endless.

[unreal moss]

since you were playing straights, you were probably levelling your hand. Thus, runner was maybe, at BEST, a x2, even at 850.

[sour sleet]

ok

[ruby crest]

Yo, I'm trying out the new build, and I noticed Flower Pot's description is a bit misleading. It states "X3 Mult if poker hand contains a Diamond, Club, Heart, and Spade card," while in actuality, the poker hand must have those cards score and not just be played, making 3 of a kind decks unusable. I lost a run because of this, and it may be the salt speaking, but I think I'm not going to be the only one being affected by this.

[dense meteor]

while we're altering card art can we also have this

[hushed junco]

No it says Poker hand. So all the cards from the specified poker hand
It's a new term, but it was made to allow debuffed cards with flower pot

[ruby crest]

Right, but your poker hand is the up to 5 cards you play, right? Like the scoring part of the hand would be the 3 of a kind, but the whole poker hand is the 5 cards. (didn't see the updated message before I sent btw)

[hushed junco]

Speaking of flower pot, seeing double could probably get the same treatment, for the consistency reasons

@ruby crest Nope, the game says "played hand" if it means all 5 cards played

[old ledge]

I agree with this. It really sucks to skip a blind to get a Negative or Polychrome Joker, only to have it show up as Perishable

[ruby crest]

I see. It could still be confusing for beginners though. I'll say this, I'M not making that mistake again.

[hushed junco]

It is a bit confusing at first glance, yeah. Not sure what's the best way of fixing that

[old ledge]

it could specify "scoring cards," like a lot of the other cards were changed to say

[ruby crest]

that'd be the best solution I'd think

[upbeat spindle]

it’s just that debuffed cards don’t count as scoring cards
i wonder if you could say “scoring hand”

[ruby crest]

Also, have you (localthunk) considered buffing green joker? Something like +2 / -2 would go a long way at making this joker scale more evenly with other jokers of that type. (e.g I had Dagger scale MUCH faster, almost 2x as fast, than Green Joker in the same run.)

[hushed junco]

Bus (common) scales +1 per hand
Pants (uncommon) scales +2 per two pair
Green joker (common) +1 per hand
Dagger (uncommon) +1 per $
Seems even to me (other than the dagger but that's because gift card and egg exist)

[ruby crest]

fair, but maybe more risk more reward? Like what if it was uncommon and it had like +2 / -3 or +2 / -4? It'd really force players to not discard almost ever, but I could also se it being too overpowered with burglar. Just shooting ideas out. (I did also get egg on the dagger too, which was mainly why dagger so much higher than green joker)

[hushed junco]

It already is a big part of high card meta and does not need a buff or a risk as it is just going to make high card even more op

[ruby crest]

Fair point. If I can get it off the ground, I've never had a bad high-card run.

[hybrid onyx]

Green Joker, Ride the Bus, and Supernova are all common jokers with similar power levels and are all decently strong. I don't think a buff is needed

[restive hinge]

I think they are balanced since it costs hands to lvl up them which cost money and that is a good trade off

[dense meteor]

upon trying to mod this into my game i have discovered this is a 69x68 joker, this is not a square

[upbeat spindle]

it should be 64x64

[sinful tulip]

I know there's been some square joker discussion and balancing. Just want to say that a scaling +1 chip and +1 mult for every 4 cards played (giving both scaling chips and mult) would be the true square joker.

[dense meteor]

+1 mult is way better than +1 chip

[mint summit]

so just a better green joker

[solar marlin]

If we're pitching suggestions for square joker, mine is to make it +16 but only for the first hand of the round (ala DNA etc.)

Works out a bit better than +4 on average but less potential for going big with extra hands

[silver oasis]

Could the reduced motion be split into 2 different settings? One for what the previous patch introduced (swirling backgrounds) and these new changes? I dont love the default backgrounds but the cards doing their little animation is something i do find satisfying and would rather see kept as an option

[sinful tulip]

yeah, it would be OP, but square!

[wheat raft]

I had an idea for Vampire that I thought would be fun. For each played and scored enhanced card gain 0.1 + (0.5xCard Sucked Per Hand) mult. This would obviously be a buff, but it means if you play a 5 scoring card hand with 5 enhanced card you'd get 1x mult, but be punished by losing all the great enhancements. In some scenarios this would be OP but in most cases I feel it makes it a more justified purchase as you could play strategically and have 2 tarots to enhance in your stash etc. Just a thought

I also wonder if you will address the tiny request of making a Retry Challenge button when you die, with the same functionality of holding R to reset, only after you have lost a run. Think of all the clicks that would be saved around the world!

[craggy ferry]

I've never tried the new reduced motion until now
cards no longer proc visually and it sure feels weird like that

[hushed junco]

The vampire was nerfed (mostly) because of midas pareidolia combo, I dont think making it only broken for midas pareidolia combo is a solution here

[pseudo vault]

I know you qualified it with "mostly," but
I think blaming Midas + Pareidolia for the nerf to Vampire is more than a little disingenuous.
I think we can trust Thunk understands how rare that specific combo (even without Pareidolia) is.
Vampire was overperforming in other contexts as well, in my experience.

As with Constellation, Vampire is better when you have better economy.
Not just more economy elements in your build
but actually better financial management in your playstyle.
I think Vampire, even at x0.1, continues to perform sufficiently well
at the highest levels of gameplay.

I feel the same about the Square nerf.
+4 scaling is disappointing, but it's still good enough.

[hushed junco]

Yeah, I know vampire was still broken without midas and pareidolia, but I believe such suggestion would just bring that power back, which I don't think is necessary, worded it badly.

Also yeah, the combo is rare, but midas with vampire wouldn't be that hard to find and use, though it all depends on the stake you play. Pareidolia is more of an "instant deck manipulation" in such case, and is not necessary, for the most part.

And despite me not getting a good vampire run yet on high stakes, I'd agree that it is approximately on the same level with constellation. Even though vampire still keeps that higher potential through some combos, which is okay due to not being able to use glass cards as a fail-safe

[upper bison]

Theres also generally more ways to get tarot cards enchantment for vampire than it is to get more planet cards, even though not all tarot card scales vampire, so it really does feel similiar in power to constellation

[ivory sage]

depends
since lucky cat is almost competitive lmfao

[solar vale]

I've thought about something for bloodstone, what if it just got rid of the rng aspect so it procs every time, and it gets reduced to 1.25x per card? That way there's a difference between all uncommon scaling xmult cards

Ancient switches suits so it's 1.5
Idol switches per card in deck so it's 2
And this proposed bloodstone is the most consistent but the lowest scaling at 1.25

[hushed junco]

That is definitely an idea, that'd make it a guaranteed X3 with 5 cards, around the same as it is on 1.0.0, on average? A bit sad that no more dice combo, but that's probably fine? 🤔

[amber ginkgo]

rip square joker

[dawn panther]

Very confused by the square joker nerf, considering I felt like the previous version was a nerf already

[chrome wind]

5 not a square number😭

[dawn panther]

Also with the magician change, the lovers stands out as a very weak tarot. Idk if it should be changed to two cards or not though

[leaden drift]

either bring back square's base 16 or bring back +5, whoever complained that 5 isnt a square number or whatever is cringe

if not that then at least make square joker's corners sharp

[upper bison]

getting rid of Bloodstone RNG feels like getting rid of what makes it unique, and thats one less dice synergy which doesnt feel like fun for dice either

[leaden drift]

making the mult 1.25x would essentially disable bloodstone from being a decent option for endless.

1.25^5 = 3.05x
1.25^10 = 9.31x
1.25^20 = 86.73x

1.25x 20 times in a row giving only a mere 86.73x just won't cut it, compared to 1.5x 20 times doing 3325.25x. that would be too big of a mult nerf

im not saying bloodstone wouldnt have any application of course, with just one retrigger a 9x is still good for regular runs but it wouldnt be an endless joker anymore

[solar vale]

you realize doing 1.25^20 means you are playing 20 cards in hand? i dont think bloodstone should be the best option for endless since there are better options such as triboulet or idol, i think its fine its not the best since its a general use uncommon

the values can be changed to maybe 1.33 or something between 1.25 and 1.5 but imo i think thats the best bet (i have to write here cuz of slowmode)

[rose sand]

that includes retriggers, e.g. red seal + sock / hack

[leaden drift]

1.25^20 would be retriggering 5 cards 4 times, is what i meant

[woven flame]

Noticed an issue with localization, Spanish (Spain): Tags are missing a space whenever the card modifier is mentioned. Only happens with card modifiers.

[leaden drift]

let's see 1.33x maths

1.33^5 = 4.16x
1.33^10 = 17.32x
1.33^20 = 299.94x

[mint summit]

it always felt weird that bloodstone was the only chance based mineral joker

[solar vale]

idk i feel like bloodstone is in a weird state that its too op with sixes but too weak without, i rather have a consistent joker than one that fluctuates (too op for what it is)

but 1.5^5 is 7.59x, that number is way too strong with sixes for an uncommon

[leaden drift]

its not really op even with sixes anymore since it's 1.5x now instead of being 2x

[obsidian dagger]

I just noticed that endless base points are also increased in higher stakes.
For example Ante 14 Purple+ is now 1.1e14 which was 1e14 (but written as 10e13 and was reported previously) before.

[leaden drift]

how is 7.59x too strong? you're using 2 joker slots for that when something like 5 steel triggers or one ancient joker flush [which uses ONE slot] does the exact same mult and i dont see anyone complaining about it being strong

[solar vale]

the problem atleast for me is that bloodstone basically doesnt require anything, just a few heart suit changers and youre set with that joker, its too strong for the fact that it doesnt require nearly anything to make it work

ancient has an element of randomness so its fine for me

[ionic steeple]

square wont be changed back to having base chips since thunk decided to remove them due to them being confusing

[hushed junco]

ancient is rare

[solar vale]

thats also another thing

thats why i said i think bloodstone is either too weak or too strong for an uncommon, i dont think the element of randomness fits it

[leaden drift]

bloodstone also has an element of randomness without dice? its a 50% each card where if you're unlucky it wont hit even once.

and bloodstone does require things to be good - retriggering jokers, dice, blueprint/brainstorm, red seals, obviously dice if you want the guaranteed hit etc, pretty much like any other endless joker except it needs that dice to hog a slot aswell

[upbeat spindle]

i mean wild cards themselves kinda need to be changed, as they're kinda just worse than unenhanced cards

[leaden drift]

what change would they need then if not the same treatment as magician

[upbeat spindle]

main thing people have talked about is reword the wording on some of the boss blinds so that it'd make sense for wild cards to not be debuffed by them of the base suit isn't the suit being debuffed
like going from "played hearts" to "played heart cards"
another was jokers/synergies that ask for multiple suits letting a single wild card fulfill all the requirements (flower pot mostly lol)
another was just more synergy for wild cards in general

another thing that i personally suggested was making wild cards be like it's own suit, so it could be enchanced and wild, but that's not as important

[upbeat spindle]

and yeah also buffing it to change two cards like magician i think would be needed with only some of the above suggestions also

[solar marlin]

Just make it so wildcards count as any suit AND rank...

[hushed junco]

that'll just make Xoak builds much easier to make, as well as the idol trivial to use

[solar marlin]

Though the sarcasm would be obvious, sorry

[onyx summit]

I still find it odd that debuffed Stone cards still count as stones for scoring instead of their base suit while wildcards don't.

[upbeat spindle]

well that's the whole point of stones

[onyx summit]

It's the point of stones, but when they are debuffed, part of the enhancement still applies.

[rugged ibex]

the problem is you don't know their base rank/suit
though I do agree that it probably makes more sense for them to adhere to the rules other enhancements do

[toxic spire]

Did I miss other changes on gold stake? It's still rough with all the perishable. Was there no patch between this and the initial 1.0.1c?

I just see nerfs and more ante scaling

[ionic steeple]

Nope, there was no "d" patch it was for beta testers

And perishables should be statistically less met, since odds for them were fixed (apparently it was 35% instead of 30% if I'm not mistaken) + no more scaling jokers with perishable

[toxic spire]

Ah. I see that now as a bug fix, but it doesn't have specific numbers

[fickle kayak]

Here’s d

[topaz edge]

Perishables have been slightly reduced with several non-retroactive scaling Jokers never be Perishable and lower the rate from 35% back to its intended 30% (This was caused by a calculation error in 1.0.1c which we reported a while back).

[toxic spire]

Thanks. Maybe I'll give gold stake a shot again. It was killing my enjoyment so I went back to get the rest of the worthwhile unlocks

[supple imp]

Where people are erring is by comparing Square Joker to what it was like before this patch, which misses why it was changed. Of course it takes more hands to get back to +16—that's that the entire point.

Y'all need to be comparing it to other scaling jokers of the same rarity.

[sinful tulip]

The point was to point out that Square Joker was nerfed. "Did you intend this to be a nerf? Because it's a nerf" essentially. Things like Runner going from 20 + 10 to 0 + 15 implies that these changes were meant to be adjustments rather than buffs or nerfs, so I just wanted to point out that Square Joker change was a nerf. That's now obvious because Square Joker has gone from 16 + 4 to 0 + 4. I think a nerf is fine though.

You make a good point about focusing on comparisons between Jokers rather than the changes.

[iron agate]

Found a bug, idk if it's exclusive to new beta patch but I was on 1.0.1e:
When on the Psychic with Loyalty Card, if you play a hand that doesn't score, it will still show as "x left" as though the hand wasn't played. It still does count down however, obscuring the actual remaining hands for Loyalty Card.

[supple imp]

It's indeed a nerf, but I see a lot of people who are concerned that it was nerfed too much and that it doesn't make sense. I've seen a lot of math calculating how much it costs to get it to where it was before the change, instead of viewing it in context.

[hushed junco]

this bug exists in the main version of the game too, unrelated to the experimental update

[willow galleon]

Square joker nerf shouldn't matter that much to its viability, what difference does +16 chips make realistically?

[onyx summit]

It makes quite a bit of difference early game but overall its still a really strong joker, plus the cheaper buy price means you sacrifice slightly less economy

[supple imp]

Joker tags are a mechanic that is appealing to newer players.

If someone is playing on Gold Stake and skipping for tags, then they're making things harder for themselves.

@strange bone Our perspective is from that of enfranchised, experienced players. We optimize and whatnot, but newer players are drawn to things that are cool and encourage them to experiment.

It was too good before because it was essentially a crutch for new players, and outclassed similar cards

[strange bone]

I disagree a lot on phrases 1 and 2 - there is a lot of scenarios where skipping for tags is great in gold stake. If your interest is low then skipping a small blind for Investment, Speed, Economy or the Buffoon or Top Up tag for example gives much more guaranteed value than the 3-4$ you'd get from playing the small blind, and when resetting for a good start joker tags are great.

RE Square Joker, myehh fair enough, I can see that. In that case, understandable on the Square Joker nerf.

[supple imp]

It's actually pretty big, at least on higher stakes. The thing is, you didn't have to focus on it before—it was good enough to carry you before selling it with very little investment.

It was effectively an x2 multiplier from the get-go

[obtuse forge]

vampire chipped his teeth, but square joker straight up got massacred

[supple imp]

Remember that each skipped tag increases the difficulty by making you fight bosses earlier.

You also underestimate the value of a shop—it's like a super reroll. You get new packs, new cards, and the cost to reroll resets. The whole reason to save up money is to mitigate randomness by rerolling and digging for more cards.

So, when you skip, ask yourself: is whatever you get worth losing all that? Edit: that question isn't rhetorical

[willow galleon]

Cannot agree with this. Vampire had it's Xmult effectively halved, play four hands and Square Joker is exactly the same as it was

[strange bone]

Yeah, a lot of the time yeah, it really is worth "losing" all that.

Let's say it's ante 2, I have 6$ and am one-shotting blinds due to a holographic jimbo.
Playing the small blind means I get 3$ from the unspent hands +1 interest for a total 4$.
Is the 4$ + the shop worth it over:
-> Investment Tag fixing your entire economy at the end of the round?
-> Top-Up Tag giving you 2 common jokers free of stickers?
-> Economy Tag giving you 6$ bucks (2 more over if you played?)
The packs are cool but if you pick them in this state you're going under a interest threshold; unless it's exactly a buffoon or spectral pack I wouldn't take it, and even then I would still skip buffoon packs to keep my interest as I'm crusing for a bit.

You are massively overrating the shop; when you're building your interest you'd rather more raw $ than more shops as very little in the shop lets you grow interest easily.

[obtuse forge]

old square joker after 4 hands would be +32 while new one is +20 👀, you'd need 16 4-card hands before new square joker ties the old one in value, then becomes better. definitely got massacred, esp if you dont plan to go above ante 8

[ivory sage]

fun fact, that's also nerfed
it's just starts at 0 and +4 per hand now

[willow galleon]

Square Joker was changed back to +4chips

[obtuse forge]

christ. not even a massacre. a straight up bloodbath.

[willow galleon]

After 4 hands (or 1 round) Square is the same card it was. It's really not that big of a nerf

[strange bone]

If you're in this situation and looking at the Economy Tag then playing is the greedy play and skipping is the safe play.

If you play you're gambling on finding something good to buy on this shop. If you play and don't buy anything in the shop you literally lost 1$ compared to just skipping. This is also assuming you draw a hand that wins - if you didn't manage to find a straight, flush or w/e and had to spend a hand as a discard you lost an extra 1$ in there.

And this is assuming Economy Tag, which just gives you 6$. Investment Tag gives you 25$, Coupon gives minimun 6$ from the packs + the jokers on sale, Handy can give more, etc. If you don't have at least 15$ in the bank it can be very hard to justify playing over skipping for these tags.

@supple imp Thoughts?

[ivory sage]

wat
it's 16 chips, that's one mercury
square is still getting taken at every opportunity and it still completely solves chip for any stake non black deck

[willow galleon]

It's essentially a chips version of Ride the Bus, Green Joker, etc. I don't know why people think it's so bad

[topaz edge]

You're comparing a +Mult Joker vs. a +Chip Joker, the latter is massively beneficial due to unbalanced base chip x mult. Let's say on a Two Pair you get 20x2 base, Pants will give 80 upon first playing (+2, so 20x4), whereas current Square gives 48 (+4 chips, so 24x2). Previous Square would give the same 80 as well (starting 16+4, so 40x2).

I just don't really understand WHY every non-retroactive scaling Joker has to start at 0, because some are waaaaaaaaay too weak to be of use even at the beginning, so they badly need some initial buff to at least get players off the ground. With the current 0 chip nerf, almost every single one of them minus Runner aren't worth picking at all

[rugged plank]

Runner gives almost 4x its chips. I feel like you can easily get 2 straights per round, and if you hit 2 straights you have 30 chips from that round, as opposed to 16 from playing 4 4's. So you lose 2 more dollars to get basically half the chip scaling

[willow galleon]

Yeah the more difficult condition gets a better reward

[rugged plank]

it isn't much more difficult though. Straights are not really hard to hit. on a per round basis, you can get more chips from hitting that condition than you can from square joker hitting it consistently every time.

[strange bone]

I just don't really understand WHY every non-retroactive scaling Joker has to start at 0, because some are waaaaaaaaay too weak to be of use even at the beginning, so they badly need some initial buff to at least get players off the ground. With the current 0 chip nerf, almost every single one of them minus Runner aren't worth picking at all
It's a new player experience thing.
It can be hard for a new player to distinguish is a joker is retroactive scaling or not which can lead to confusion - a new player playing 4 card hands when they don't have Square Joker to try and future proof for it, for example.

This confusion stems from seeing these jokers "already scaled up" - ie, seeing that on the shop the jokers already have some payoff to give, thinking that the Square gives +16 chips because of triggering the condition in the past rather than it just being a starting number. Seeing it start at 0 makes it a lot more clear that it only counts when you have it.

I'm very bummed by the reverting of +5 to +4 but changing it to start at 0 chips is understandable for the new player experience.

[gritty mortar]

hello Laugic

[willow galleon]

I agree Straights aren't as difficult to make as some players make them out to be, but they are certainly more difficult to make, esecially two per round, than it is to throw random sets of 4 cards out, which is why Runner scales faster

[supple imp]

You should have an economy joker of some sort, so you're losing value from that. You also lose value on any purple stickers, blue stickers, gold cards you have. You lose an entire chance to scale scaling jokers.

You also lose out on growing your interest, which is an additional $3-$5 dollars.

You lose a shop—you're still going to see the same shop whether you skip or not, assuming you're in the same ante. Same with your hand and everything.

Edit: Your starting hand and everything will also be the same

[rugged plank]

Hitting 1 straight is very easy. Hitting 2 can be tricky, but is manageable. 3+ is also quite tricky, but manageable sometimes.
Once you hit 1 straight, runner is essentially the same chip scaling as 4 hands from Square Joker. But also saving you $3. Once you hit the second straight, you've basically doubled your scaling. They seem to just not be remotely similar in power level, and they're both common.

Also, being limited to 4 cards rules out almost all of the strong hands in the game

[willow galleon]

Bro you are not hitting 3 straights per round with a vanilla 52 card deck every round

[ivory sage]

if hitting 3 straights doesn't win a blind your run is dead
in fact if hitting 2 doesn't win your run is probably also dead

hitting straights is not guaranteed even if you have the freedom of using discards for it and sometimes your mult is green joker/bus making your straights even harder to hit

[strange bone]

1: This is ante 2, you just got past the first boss. We don't have it; most runs don't have it by this point. We certainly don't have purple stickers, blue stickers or gold cards by this point. This is a non-point.

2: What? This is literally not true. How are you not growing the interest? Playing here you gain 5$, 4 from the hand and 1 from the interest. Not playing you gain 6$. In both you get over 1 interest bump. Did you even read my post?

3: I'm aware; that can be fixed by paying 5$ later on. "Rerolling" right now is pointless since you can't afford the stuff in it anyways so there's no point.

Did you even read my posts?

[rugged plank]

I didn't mean to insinuate hitting 3 was a regular thing to expect, just that it could happen, which would make the scaling gap even bigger the few times it does happen in the run. my other points still stand regardless
Also, your deck doesn't stay at 52 cards the whole time. Getting Straights becomes easier as the run goes on. playing 4 cards is the same the whole time.

[topaz edge]

Look, we can argue about "experience" all days long but the reality is that some people can't read, nor can they actually "learn" the game. By trying to please everyone we end up pleasing no one.

I said it earlier, Balatro has retro AND non-retroactive scaling Jokers, of which the latter one clearly said THIS RUN. The non-retroactive ones doesn't need a nerf just because people can't read (or doesn't bother to, for that matter). It comes down to game balancing to give everyone good experience, not to make Jokers completely unusable just so they "read more consistently".

TL;DR: The chip scaling Jokers are bad enough that their saving graces are the starting bonus so they can save some hopeless run in the beginning. Taking that away simply adds 3 more Jokers to the useless category, even for new players.

[ivory sage]

you took wee because it gave 10 chips at the start???

[willow galleon]

Fair enough. I agree Runner is a better joker than Square anyway.

[supple imp]

I'm talking in general, like I mentioned originally, which is what you responded to.

You constructed a specific situation that was intended to get around my general point.

The only times I would skip are if I get a holo tag in the first blind, or if it's later in the run and I'll get a voucher tag.

[strange bone]

That is literal gatekeeping.
You are saying to prioritize the experience of old players that already know how everything the game works over the new player experience. This is how games that are constantly updated go to die, letting this sort of small confusions pile up until the game becomes nigh unaproachable.

These jokers are worse now but they're definitely still usable in low stakes; arguing that doing this is "Taking that away simply adds 3 more Jokers to the useless category, even for new players." when the joker is still perfectly usable and still good for low stake play.

You are asking for a joker to make the game more confusing and less approachable for new players so that it becomes slightly better in gold stake. The vast majority of players won't even reach that high; prioritizing balance over learnability is being a gatekeeping fool.

[strange bone]

It's not a very specific situation - it's a very common one.
Getting off ante 1 with little money and with a joker that lets you trivially win the blinds. This is an extremely common early game position to face, and one where it's prime time to skip a small blind.

Later on when you get more interest I agree skipping becomes sketchier but on antes 2/3 where you are still building your interest and likely don't have gold cards, economy jokers and etc then skipping is a very real possiblity and can be an excellent play

[supple imp]

You're underestimating the value of a shop and you're fighting bosses earlier.

If you think skipping everything I mentioned is worth it, then by all means do it.

[rugged plank]

Square giving 6 per hand would be pretty nice. +24 per round is still less than getting 2 straights from Runner but is much more reasonable

[topaz edge]

All this time I've been talking about new players' experience, not sure where you get the idea of old players from. Steam forums are flooded with complains about weak Jokers, but I've never seen anyone actually complains about the "inconsistency" that some streamers may or may not accidentally play into that.

Adding to that, the learnability has been all over the place, people reporting bugs because of wording in this game every single day. I don't see localization being too prioritized now, so I don't see why we have to worry about learnability when there are so many new players getting tripped by the current localization.

[supple imp]

@pseudo vault can explain shop value better than I can. His advice is solid, given that he is the best Balatro player in the world. Dude even beat 15 games on Gold stake in a row once with each deck

[ivory sage]

did he really waste that much time
wasn't it only white stake

[gritty mortar]

problem:
6 isn't a perfect square
really dumb idea:
square starts at negative chips and gives 9

[strange bone]

What are you even buying in the shop? If you already are cruising in terms of points and one-shotting bosses then buying jokers is pointless as you're already winning; you'd rather not buy anything to get interest. There's nothing you want in the shop, pretending the shop is a magical land where there's always something good and worth buying is an extremely reductive way of looking at the game and its strategy.

The value of seeing shops is reduced significantly if you have low money. I would always take a investment tag over playing a small blind ante 2 if I have jokers making winning the blinds trivial.

You're overrating the shops and gambling on finding something good over guaranteed value; "seeing more shops" is a pointless upside if you don't have the money to spend on what you see.

[strange bone]

I mean, sure feel free to tag drspectred ig but I doubt they're gonna come here and tell you that you're correct that skipping in gold stake is horrible, that seeing more shops is godlike and that there's no nuance when taking money generating tags

[gritty mortar]

yes he did
and it was gold stake
you can watch all of the videos

[supple imp]

I didn't say that. I'm explicitly saying skip if you think it is worth it, and that you are underrating shops.

[pseudo vault]

Skipping in Gold Stake is horrible; seeing more shops is incredibly valuable for success;
and there is little nuance in money generating tags, in that you shouldn't take them,
with the rare exception of Investment Tag ($25) in Ante 1
because it was balanced around Antes 2-4 not balanced for Ante 1.

[gritty mortar]

HA!

[tropic tiger]

do steam achievements not work on experimental patch? Just finished all gold stakes and didn't get the achievement

[strange bone]

Win a run on any stake (white works) and it'll give it to you, it's a known bug

[supple imp]

The thing about missing out on later shops blew my mind. Missing an entire opportunity to be able to dig for what you need once you have the money to afford it

[ivory sage]

not sure if bug or spaghetti lol, but yeah, win another run
it'll happen again if you go for c++ as well

[tropic tiger]

damn well thats anti-climatic
thanks for the help :)

[supple imp]

Thanks for stopping by! I'm horrible at explaining, and also I now know to grab the $25 tag in ante 1.

@strange bone I hope it makes sense now. I get too caught up in the weeds on discussion sometimes, haha

[hollow briar]

Its existed since septembser demo 💀

[prime remnant]

I have another quick update for ya, it's mainly a rendering/performance update. It'll make text look a little crisper on Windows but I need to make sure there isn't a big performance hit

[oak stream]

do the updates stop

[prime remnant]

not for a few more years

Alright it's live! Update and give it a whirl - please let me know either way if this newest update runs or looks any different to you

[gritty mortar]

nice

[twilit spire]

nooo but i just left my house 😔
You're already workshopping new decks aren't you? I demand the Magnet voucher back!

[fickle kayak]

looks really clean and crisp on my device now! no performance issues but i have pretty strong pc so i wouldnt expect any

[dense meteor]

did square get changed back to 4?

[rugged ibex]

I can definitely notice text being less blurry on 1.0.1e.

[hexed sphinx]

Is this bug known?
I opened the pack went to main menu and opened the run.

[sage snow]

8 ball is still trash because it's actually 1 in 39 chance and guaranteed to spawn lovers, tower, or a suit tarot

[weary garnet]

The problem is that wild cards don't do anything on their own aside from enabling flush-related hands which can be a boost to score but not always.

The enhancement is mainly enabling other interactions such as guaranteeing ancient joker or other suit-related joker activation. Without those suit-related jokers, wild cards are simply a minor buff which carry a higher likelihood of being debuffed by a boss blind as they are turned off by any suit-debuffing boss.

I think the simplest buff to wild cards would be to make them immune to suit-debuffing boss blinds and possibly enable the lovers card to create 2 wilds at a time. Then wild cards would essentially have a protective effect in addition to an enabling effect which I think makes sense.

[twilit spire]

Or just make them immune to being debuffed altogether to make it simpler

[weary garnet]

Square got changed to +4 per hand but starts at 0 so it's essentially a 4-hand nerf vs the current version

[weary garnet]

I think that could be a neat idea for a different enhancement altogether, but would be far too strong as an additional effect to wild cards imo

[twilit spire]

Copper Cards: cannot get debuffed, destroyed, or trigger negative effects (losing gold from Tooth, decrease hand level from Arm, etc)
needs some workshopping

[final tiger]

just noticed there's another update on steam, is there anything important to know about?

[narrow frost]

This, surskit, unless theres another another update?

(Oh my goodness localthunk, sorry for not turning off reply mention >.<)

[weary garnet]

no one saw anything

[upbeat spindle]

straight up immune to the suit debuffs i think is a bit too strong, but i could see them being only affected by the suit debuff if the base suit of the card is the one getting debuffed

[weary garnet]

My counter argument is that the wild enhancement doesn't provide any intrinsic benefit on its own. It is simply an enabling enhancement that does not directly increase score or provide money. So having an enabling enhancement getting debuffed by the same mechanism of that enhancement feels bad.

By applying the wild card, I'm saying that I want this card card to be a flexible suit card and so when it gets debuffed by a suit boss blind, that feels bad. It's ultimately a minor difference between only 1 suit boss blind debuffing it vs none and so I'd prefer it to be none as a minor bonus. The difference between currently all 4 suit boss blinds debuffing wilds down to 1 or 0 is a significant difference. I just think it would be cool if wilds didn't care about suit boss blinds at all

sorry, I know this is technically off topic for this thread. I just saw discussion earlier and wanted to share my input. we should move to the suggestion channel

[prime remnant]

please keep it on topic for 1.0.1e!

[iron island]

Bloodstone feels like a better ancient joker rn (especially with oops all 6s). I feel bad saying this but I liked it better at 1/3 for a x2 mult. It made it unique, and with oops all 6s it was fun.

[pseudo vault]

Agree

[iron island]

honestly even without ooops all 6s it was pretty powerful for an uncommon u just had a chance of being unlucky

[upbeat spindle]

someone also did the math to work out that for getting x1.5 mult, it was better than 1 in 3 x2, but for getting any total xmult amount higher than that it was actually equal to or worse than 1 in 3 x2, making bloodstone kinda nerfed from what it was originally

[weary garnet]

I had a run yesterday on 1.0 that was both prolonged by bloodstone + oops but ultimately died early from it as well because I was losing glass cards too quickly. It's the ultimate feast or famine joker at 1/3 odds of 2x, but it did help me set a pb at e22. I'm excited to try the new version

[old hollow]

I like the reduced motion, but I feel like you should be able to toggle what things you want reduced and what things you don't want reduced. Feels too much like an "all or nothing" when it'd be nice to disable the stuff that bothers you!
(Like, I don't really love the background stopping, but the cards not moving as much is good, or other things like that)

[candid lake]

1 in 2 of 1.5x is definitely worse than 1 in 3 of 2x. The expectation of 1 card with 1/2 of 1.5x is 1/2x1.5+1/2x1=1.25; however with 1/3 of 2x you have 1/3x2+2/3*1=1.34

[weary garnet]

Isn't it as simple as expected value of 0.66666666666x per trigger (literally 1/3 x 2 = 2/3) on the current bloodstone vs EV of 0.75x per trigger (1/2 x 1.5 = 0.75) on the updated bloodstone and thus it's technically a buff? Is the math more complex than that?

[old hollow]

1 in 2 of 1.5x is a lot more fun with oops all 6's though

[gritty mortar]

it's much more consistent as well

[prime remnant]

Has anyone else had a chance to test the new version I pushed a couple hours ago? Any issues with performance? Notice any change in the visuals?

[old hollow]

I just updated as of a couple minutes ago and am currently playing (on my windows PC)
Performance is fine, visuals seem the same
Or at least I don't really notice anything

[candid lake]

Fun but I mean it’s even worse than the original one in 1.0.0, far more worse compared with test edition of 1.0.1c And I don’t think bloodstone is that OP in 1.0.0 that should get nerfed. Otherwise no need to boost it to 1 in 2 of 2x, just leave it as normal.

[bright helm]

I haven't noticed any change in performance, but I also don't play with fps displayed so idk

[real storm]

EV accounts for all outcomes, not just the "positive" ones, So the math done #1233586567671709886 message
is more accurate

[wheat warren]

it’s currently about 87% the expected mult (logarithmically) of 1.0.0

[real storm]

but we should take into account of its value with "oops all sixes" between 1.0.0 and 1.0.1e, maybe the change makes more since considering that?

[bright helm]

This was already covered the last couple days. but Bloodstone in 1.0.0n isn't always better than 1.0.1e. It depends on how much of a xMult you need to clear the blind.
Edit (for more info): The 1.0.0n version has a far more likely chance of triggering 0 times than 1.0.1e is one example.

[real storm]

Wait I think I'm confused?
How is the 1.0.1c bloodstone worse than the 1.0.0n bloodstone?

Edit: Oh wait, thats hitting xMult or worse

that still makes the new bloodstone worse overall i think,
since it fails much quicker.

[candid lake]

2/3x2+1/3x1=1.66; while 2/2*1.5=1.5, still worse. Unless you have double “oops”

[real storm]

Like after 2 triggers its worse than 1.0.0n

[bright helm]

The graph is sort of "backwards". The more right the line is, the better. The way to read it is that 1.0.1(c&e) is way better at triggering at least once, but 1.0.1e is worse than 1.0.0n if you need 4x or more.

[robust echo]

Bloodstone in its current form is massively good, it was pretty broken at 2x. It being less useful for endless seems pretty irrelevant... the game is balanced around ante 8. Endless is not really competitive...

[real storm]

Yeah, but unless were incorrect, The original change for bloodstone was meant to buff it. So I think that's what the goal is.
Unless localthunk had a change in direction for the card.

[tiny trail]

ah, still no fix for the "cursor is hidden/behind the window when in fullscreen and borderless fullscreen"

[weary garnet]

Thanks for the clarification, I appreciate it! Despite being mathematically slightly weaker, the new version has less variance than the old version which I think is reasonable for an uncommon joker that can be so powerful in the right scenarios.

[bright helm]

The goal is to make it more consistent than in 1.0.0n. It feels bad when you play multiple heart flushes in a row with no Bloodstone triggers. Now the odds of playing 2 hearts flushes with no triggers is about 1/1000 as opposed to 1/58.

[real storm]

Ah, in that case. the changes make sense.

[prime remnant]

Yeah don't think buff/nerf for it, more that I identified an issue with Bloodstone (people were frustrated using it because they were trying to rely on a fundamentally unreliable Joker) and tried to solve it without removing the DNA of the card. It's still approximately the same ballpark in terms of strength but hopefully less frustrating because it misses less often

[stable otter]

2x was really big for an entire suit anyway; 1.5x is more consistent. only other OP 2x now are combos like Chad + Photograph, or Idol if you've thinned/copied ur deck (edit: we have 2 minute slow mode now?! damn)

[unreal moss]

oh hey square's back to +4 sweet

[prime remnant]

Sometimes something doesn't work and it needs to be scrapped, but sometimes just changing the idea slightly can fix it too. I think it's better now but if it's really bad after people have used it a lot then I'll consider something else

As with pretty much all of the changes I've made in 1.0.1, thinking about how the new changes will work isn't very useful compared to actually using it for a while, so I urge everyone to actually use the cards and determine from experience if they are viable

[stable otter]

i do want to test out viability of new stuntman for 101e but he's rare now 😉

[agile ore]

since the latest update, my windows taskbar is periodically disappearing for like a second while i have the game open

[tiny heron]

ngl, nerfing bloodstone was 100% deserved, but it feels like too much, though maybe I'm just bad, but the bad part is that you aren't guaranteed for your mult to multiply, which makes me think that maybe nerfing to ×1.75 or something could be better, and aside from that, all the other changes seem fine for me, like stuntman, he did deserve the nerf and it's now balanced, or vagabond, due to it's low requirement to get tarots, and you can get it from wraith now, which is even better
So it's all around a good balance update, though my pc is having some issues with it, like sometimes, when the bar reaches to 100%, the game just closes a few times before it finally works, and it seems like the latestest patch made it worse, since I got lag before ante 8, which never ever happened to me when playing

[unreal moss]

I think current bloodstone is ok, it feels on par with the other suit jokers. e.g. Onyx Agot, +35 mult on a club flush, let's say bloodstone triggers three times on one of your hands consistently enough, you only need a level 4 flush for bloodstone to be equal. Bloodstone is now balanced instead of OP. I like it.

because you can play 3 hearts flushes and win that way, meaning triple triggers are pretty consistent. It's a balanced uncommon, I like it being not-OP and semi-reliable

[robust echo]

He still feels too strong whenever I find him

[stable otter]

bloodstone also combos better than something like agate since you can pair with retriggers / oops6s

[weary garnet]

so if you play 2 heart flushes with no bloodstone triggers then your cavendish is guaranteed to break? I understand

[brazen perch]

the problem is a lot of us have used bloodstone extensively in 1.0.0 and the only change relative to that patch to the new one is blue seals being strong/op.

[upper bison]

Bloodstone also has much more non-combos being a on score X-mult, meaning every scaling +mult like erosion, fortune teller, etc, being a worse pair than something like arrowhead or agate. Also all suit uncommon pair really well with retriggers, we just associate it with bloodstone more because retriggers also allows to curb the uncertainty of bloodstone procs somewhat

[patent moon]

Nice stealth update to Square :)

[weary garnet]

It wasn't stealth, thunk commented on that earlier

[brazen perch]

Instead of a graph, here are the ranges at which each bloodstone is more likely to produce a given X mult.

[iron island]

I am saying from experience: This was good, but it was unironically less fun. I felt like I was just doing an ancient joker run except it always hit hearts
(ahh sorry for the ping that was an accident)

[elder falcon]

I'm noticing a little bit of hitching / hiccups on steam deck. Was running anaglyph with 12 jokers and a lot of on cars triggers. Castle, baseball card, dusk etc.

[sinful tulip]

Is it intended that Showman can cause a Tarot card to appear twice in a Standard or Jumbo pack? That's bad. When I only get to choose one of the cards, showing the same card multiple times only serves to reduce my choices.

[upper bison]

Yes, showman is intended to be bad, it is known

[vestal geode]

how is it known that its intended to be bad ??

[elder falcon]

I believe the card says Joker, Tarot, Planet, and Spectral cards may appear multiple times. So yes the same came be duplicated in a pack

[tropic junco]

I'm not sure if there's a different kind of change Square joker is in need of, but I'm glad that it's still +4 per hand. It feels important for that joker in particular, since it's referencing funni math concepts, to get its numbers exactly right.

[upper bison]

unless youre playing for endless to get a bunch of one type of joker, showman will just screw up your packs with little benefit

[tepid hamlet]

I have been playing less and less since the latest batch of nerfs. I really dont feel interest anymore. Its kinda.... stale.

I think I would like the game better if there was 1 mechanic added... That when you see a joker and not pick it up, it gets removed from the pool until all other jokers of that rarity have been seen. Then all jokers of that rarity can be seen again. This would add a little bit of consistency in finding jokers you actually need, instead of the same 20 over and over and over again.

But with the gambling aspect, I think a little power imbalance within rarities is a good thing. it allows you to high roll or low roll in a certain rarity. Like stuntman and 1/2 at 2x blood stone were definitely a high roll in uncommon while Shortcut, Seance, and a few others were low rolls. Ancient Joker, Obelisk, and Hit the Road would be low rolls in rare, while Blueprint, Brainstorm, Invisible Joker are high rolls.

Square joker not square anymore, Massive nerf to theme and effect.

Stuntman being rare means that I will never see him, and if I do see him, I will not want him because its either too late in the game to take it, because I have something better/different, or I dont need chips because of mult scaling from other things. I also feel the effect of stuntman is Too weak for rare, and too strong for uncommon. I would rather see stuntman at +200 chips -2 hand size uncommon, than +300 chips -1 handsize rare.

Bloodstone nerf makes endless a lot shorter if you are going for that form of points route. As an example, say you have bloodstone + oops all 6's, with redseal hearts and 1 retrigger, playing a level 1 flush 5 (which is base 16 mult). 16 * 2^15 = 524,288 mult into a 16 * 1.5^15 = 7006 mult. that is literally 1.3% of the value. HUGE nerf that severly limits the upper limit to the build.

Then the ante scaling. This one not so much, since it already was "by ante 6 do I have everything I need to beat the ante 8 boss, if no, then reset, if yes, then proceed." but it just made the margins of error even smaller. The dev even said this as an excuse "Since the margins are no longer as razor thin on higher stakes, I have also slightly increased ante scaling for mid-late antes:" which I dont think was true. Especially with rental jokers in early shops basically spelling out your doom and perishables being tolerable. IDK what the devs goal of an expected winrate in goldstake is, but its currently feeling less than 10%.

[green cove]

Honestly stuntman should only be -1 handsize if it got nerfed to rare

[sinful tulip]

I think winrate on Gold stake is higher than 10%. I've been watching some Celerity streams and saw he had won 9 of his last 12 Gold stake runs while cycling through decks (one of those losses was Black deck even).

[sly violet]

im absolutely suffering on purple stake+ after 1.0.1e lol it's like i don't know how to play the game anymore 💀 it's like im the only one
dont mind it im just gonna finish blue on every deck before i try purple again

[onyx summit]

The main issue I have with the new scaling is violet vessel now being even more difficult in comparison to the other final bosses. Bell and acorn are mostly ignorable, bell really only harming builds which require a difficult hand to be made multiple times in a round/steel hand stuff, acorn having the held card exploit. Leaf and heart are more of a good challenge but vessel having 3x the new higher score requirement is the one boss that I always end up trying to reroll or die to.

[ionic steeple]

what if VV was 5x the blind

Although idk if it would change that much since I feel like most of the time you either die to VV or crush it with good run

[sour sleet]

Had a fun run with runner, i enjoyed it being a pseudo x2 scaler 👍

[zinc moth]

Violet is awful to get on gold that 1.2 million is scary

[echo fjord]

Rare stuntman..... 😔

[marble bane]

Eh, stuntman's problem is that to fit the theme it has to be fairly risky and extreme but that alone makes it too good for high card and pair builds. Personally I feel a rare stuntman with +200 chips and -1 hand size would be great but as it stands 300 and -2 fits the flavor more. Hell if it's possible, +400 and -3 fits the theme even more.

[weary garnet]

But how does he do it? How does the stuntman hold all those chips with such a small hand size? It keeps me up at night ...

[hushed junco]

Standard packs (packs with playing cards) don't have dupes protection, Jumbo is a pack type
Showman does allow you to see duplicate planets, tarots, spectrals and jokers, that's what the description says, and that's how it should work.

[hushed junco]

I don't think violet vessel is such a problem as in most of my winning runs on high stakes with previous 1.0.1 patch I was already scoring in millions or had a potential to score in millions (with glass cards), and sold some of my jokers for new stickers. With this patch most of Xmult scalers cannot be perishable so I expect even higher consistency in reaching such numbers. Though I'll still test it when I have time, currently I'm taking a break from stakes after finishing C+

[solar marlin]

That seems like a problem in itself though, big numbers are fun but the nail biting runs where you're just about scraping through antes are more exciting. A one in five chance for those runs to just lose if you can't find something busted in the last couple of shops is pretty feelbad

[zinc moth]

it does feel pretty bad when you get to ante 8 and instead of 400k bell you see 1.2 million purple and if your build isnt lucky you will struggle on VV more than bell/any lower grade ones but flint

[solar marlin]

Struggling is fine, almost winning is still fun. I'm talking about the times when you've already struggled all the way there and then it's just suddenly more than your build is capable of with a full set of perfect hands.

[ruby crest]

Hey, I have a major issue. The most recent beta does not work on my surface laptop. (Intel Core m3-6Y30 @ 0.90GHz. 4gb ram, windows 10 pro, version 22H2, OS build 19045.3930) I could have sworn it worked earlier today, but it doesn't now. Could it be an in-game settings issue?

It's an old laptop, but it runs the most recent build, so it should be an age issue.

[dense meteor]

had a wild runner run, it was so fun

[urban coyote]

This patch is absolutely fantastic i've had an easier time playing various comps on golden sticker and i finally stopped seeing double perishable/rental tags on all the jokers, the bugfix seems to be working and the no perishable on specific jokers feels great not as limiting anymore and tbh now with the bugfix i really enjoy making use of rentals

Though there still seems to be some performance hog along the line i get it around ante 6-7 i had a vagabond tarot run where i enchanted and deck fixed my entire deck and it was started to act weird on a 5800h cpu
Though i still feel like skipping for a joker tag should warrant that joker not persishable at least (fine with rental/eternal) but other than that i feel good about all the cards

[toxic spire]

Interesting. Perishable and other jokers that decline per hand/round don't factor in that much?

[restive hinge]

Honestly a question, since we have the perishable tag not being on scaling jokers, how about rentals not being on money making jokers? They almost have no purpose if they are rental, only a small chance I would pick it up or else for me it is a blank

[elfin needle]

The new bloodstone feels nice, not too strong, but still useful, more on par with the other gem jokers

[upbeat spindle]

if anything stickers making skipping worse moreso than shops cause it really hurts skipping for a joker/buffoon pack and it having a much higher chance of being unhelpful due to it's stickers

[brazen perch]

He means for the effect of the skip itself, you defintely skip if you obtain a very strong pershiable in ante 5 to rush ante 8 before it disapears, given you either have or almost have enough points to clear 400k.

Though i will say I believe that polychrome tag and perhaps the rare in this particular version, on the small blind, are basically always takes, especially in ante 1 and 2, because the odds they hit a perishable is very low now post changes, something like 20% chance (negligable) (feels even rarer tbh) and the rental tag can be some polychromes or good rares.

[upbeat spindle]

i mean polychrome isn't that good early if u have no mult

[hushed junco]

I think rental econ jokers are OK. The issue with perishable scalers was that you need time and investment to get them going, while econ jokers already have potential to earn you more than they cost you. Most of the time they're blanks for me, but it does not mean that you can't do something with them.
E.g. you can pick up rebate/faceless/business card for 1$, go into round, see if you have a chance to use it, if not just sell it for 1$, it does not hurt you in any way, given you have free joker slots. Rentals make econ jokers better, in some cases.

Sure, the golden joker is a net neutral, because you lose 3$ and maybe 1$ interest, then gain 4$, but I don't think such edge cases should impact the rentals. Egg is net neutral/negative until you sell it, or until you manage to find temperance, so it's in a bit of a weird spot, rocket and c9 have potential to overcome the rental fee.

[toxic spire]

I just weight tags more heavily when I have more perishables if they're ideal for my build. But I still haven't won gold. I had a lot more unlocks to get

[toxic spire]

Good point. I'm more tempted by other tags though

[pseudo vault]

In my experience, this has been almost always the case for Rental Econ. Earn $5-$8 in a round, and then sell before paying the Rental fee. OR the strategic decision of, "if I pay the Rental fee, can I earn more than $5 in the next round, too?"

Here's the thing about Perishables.

It makes sense, in theory, skipping to preserve your Perishables, but, in practice, there really aren't any Jokers worth risking your life for, with scaling xMult Uncommons being a rare exception. And now those can't be Perishables.

In general, I think many players are too Joker dependent. So then the new Stakes which mess with your Jokers are especially challenging for those players. And it makes these players more sensitive to nerfing clearly overpowered Jokers.

In this case, I would suggest practicing on Jokerless more. It teaches you a better understanding of Card Enhancements and the Deck Building aspect of the game. It also teaches a better appreciation for Planet Cards, around which there is a nontrivial amount of strategy. It gives you a better understanding of how much is actually needed to pass each round and how much greed you can get away with.

And then when you switch back playing with Jokers, you'll have a better appreciation for how impactful the Common Jokers are and how unnecessary Rares and Uncommons are. And you'll learn how to hold onto non-scoring Jokers longer, giving you a stronger end game.

[hushed junco]

Disagree about skipping, there are some times when you want to skip, if you already have a one shot final boss build. Here's an example of my gold stake plasma win, I was already scoring more than enough with glass + chad, got photograph and speedrun til final boss to preserve chad. Though I'd say this is more of a chad photo being broken since the update 😹

also ignore it being on the last hand, I tried to move boss debuff to something like popcorn or shortcut to be safe, which I didn't manage in the end, though it didn't end up mattering

For the context, I played it safe-ish, was not skipping more than was needed to preseve chad til the last round

[pseudo vault]

Ah, sure.

I think Ante 8 is a notable exception. If you're skipping earlier than Ante 8, you're missing shops without knowing how many shops you'll need to get the necessary game pieces.

Once you get to Ante 8, you know if your current build is already winning or not.

[hushed junco]

I started skipping earlier than ante 8. I got photo to my chad early ante 7 iirc. Don't have seed to check when exactly that happened

[pseudo vault]

For me, I find it hard to believe I can't find better in those 3-4 shops skipped.

Knowing whether or not you have a winning build is not just about whether or not you can score enough points but also how consistently those points. And I like having the extra opportunity to improve consistency over the next few rounds of Tarot Cards (moreso from shop rerolls than from Boosters).

[sand zinc]

I wish the skips had more consistency. Half of the tags are basically random... but i also get thats probably part of the point lol

[upbeat spindle]

so many of the tags are just plain, well, bad
tag buff/rework when

[sand zinc]

That too. A lof ot them i liked when i first started playing, but now that im way more experienced they're pretty big crutches (boss reroll and juggler in particular)

[hushed junco]

That's a bit of offtopic. But I did have an idea that boss reroll from skip could give you a free Boss Reroll at any point (basically the mechanic unlocked by the boss reroll voucher, but with some indicator how many rerolls you stacked, instead of 10$ it says 0$), and it could be carried over however long you want. Some sort of safety net you pick up mid run for security when commited to a specific run.
This idea came from my initial thoughts on how luchador is pretty useless on some bosses (Leaf, Crimson heart when it gets debuffed, and Acorn), I thought it would be nice if you could sell it before the boss blind to get a boss disable tag that activates when you enter the boss.
Potentially boss reroll tag could also have such effect ^

[sand zinc]

I do think thats a good idea, i have the exact same problem with luchador. That'd also save it from taking up a space, kinda like the cola.
Sorry for getting offtopic

[topaz edge]

Just encountered slight performance hiccup, rather weird that I've never encountered this before. Will retry again and see if I could replicate it

[hushed junco]

I'd say, it really depends on the run, my was a very specific case where it was a calculated risk. The run was going to die either way if I didn't find more glass/steel in 4 rounds, and chances of that are not that great - econ was not in a good spot, more so after the tooth (iirc) with eternal rental shortcut. There isnt that many jokers that help me because of Xmult on scoring, and finding specific Xmult uncommons that dont need to scale in such short term is very unlikely.

As I mentioned, I didn't skip more than was needed to preserve chad, and I didn't manage to find anything to replace chad/photo long term. Sure with glass I'd have 1 or 2 extra rounds to survive, but after my last glass smashes - run is dead anyways.
I almost got punished by getting the only boss that could kill the run, but got away with it 😹

P.S. Also just managed to recreate approximate setup for the score with calculator. Poly card is to account for the increased Saturn scaling in the experimental (which is not on the website yet). I'm not 100% sure if I had red seal face or a 2nd glass card, but it does not really matter that much
https://efhiii.github.io/balatro-calculator/?h=wAA8BCLQKABYiA0BQjAJBUA4AIAUAkQFIA

[prime remnant]

I was afraid there would be some performance hiccups with this one, would you be able to provide me with more information?

about your computer - where you noticed the problem - what exactly happened

And also would you be able to tell me what your desktop scaling is set to for the monitor you play the game on?

(it's a percentage like 100%/150% etc.)

[elder falcon]

i was having a similar issue on steam deck btw. I was getting some hitching/hiccups playing last night. had 12 jokers, some on card abilities like baseball and castle. 8 or so negatives on anaglyph. happened 5-6 times throughout the run.

[prime remnant]

Do you have LCD or OLED deck?

[elder falcon]

LCD

[hushed junco]

In case you missed it #1233586567671709886 message

[prime remnant]

Was the game working on 1.0.1c or did you just opt in to the experimental branch?

[primal hornet]

Encountered a bug where the hand UI element from the blinds appeared in the shop. It makes me unable to buy and open the packs. (Persisted through going to the menu and back into the run. Fixed itself after closing down the game and restarting.)

[sly violet]

I had some slight performance hiccups (but quite often) after exiting and continuing a run (black deck blue stake, if it matters?)
apparently my resolution is 200% (400%?) of what my monitor does (1920x1080 but the borderless resolution is 3840x2160)
it's a computer, not a steam deck or otherwise
the hiccups happened on majority of things, opening packs, entering shops, scoring cards etc. I don't think my joker config would have made explicitly laggy shenanigans happen (it was like, greedy joker hanging chad hologram rough gem)
Idk how much more i can get into detail about this sorry 😦 (i did play for quite a bit yesterday with no issues, but it was this run in particular with all the hiccups, only thing i really did different was to save and continue after a while)

[topaz edge]

Would be some infrequent frame drops, wiggle effects are inconsistent and the burning effects sometimes take less frames than intended. Basically it'd struggle for a few seconds, then catches back up.

My specs: i7 6700, 16 GB memory, GTX 1060 6GB, W11. Display scaling is set at 125%

Also adding to bwuh, encountered when choosing Continue (even if it's ante 1 game)

[toxic spire]

This makes sense from an advanced strategy perspective. Depending on my deck, I need jokers to give me a direction for that run and not necessarily to boost my scores. Otherwise it's mostly based on which planet cards show up? Or are there more nuanced factors I still need to learn along with that? My card enhancements and deck building choices are usually driven by the jokers and/or planet cards I get. If I'm doing any form of pairs/high card/full house I try to duplicate a good face card and cull other cards. If I'm doing flush, I try to convert all my cards to one suit and get rid of others. I don't do straight without the right jokers.

[ruby crest]

I didn't catch 1.0.1c to try, unless there's still a way I can test it.

[prime remnant]

Ah then I think I know the fix for this - if you get the latest Visual C++ redistributable it might fix it https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/windows/latest-supported-vc-redist?view=msvc-170#visual-studio-2015-2017-2019-and-2022

The full version will automatically download this for you once it's live but for now it's manual

[ruby crest]

Ah, that'll probably do it. This laptop is like 8yo or something. I prefer the newer build to the current one, and I need something to do for like 16 hours tomorrow during some plane flights.

That did it. Good to know that was the only issue

Also, some excellent news is that the game controls really well with a touch screen. Mobile release soon?

[toxic spire]

Yep, I play it frequently using moonlight from my PC to my phone. But I'm sure it's completely different actually porting it to mobile

[ruby crest]

I'm using a surface's touch screen and it works great. It isn't a perfect representation for a phone screen, but it's probably the best one.

[prime remnant]

Would you kindly share more information about your PC and what kind of stuttering occurs/when it occurs?

I'm troubleshooting it right now

kbm or controller?

[prime remnant]

Can you try this solution to see if it fixes the stutter for you?

[tawdry bane]

When I enable CRT Bloom, it pushes my GPU to 100% utilization as seen in Windows Task Manager. I have an RTX 3070.

Part of the issue is that, when I run borderless, it renders at 4K even though I have a 1440p monitor and the ability to change resolutions is disabled for borderless so I can't force it to 1440p.

I found that, disabling CRT Bloom, using fullscreen and forcing 1080p resolution gets me down to like 15% GPU utilization.

Edit: I haven't compared these results with older versions.

[prime remnant]

Do you have vsync on?

[tawdry bane]

I've tried turning it on and off. I believe I kept it on as part of my setup to get to low GPU utilization. I could experiment again though

[prime remnant]

when VSYNC is off, it basically pins your machine to pump out as many fps as possible

I really shouldn't even have that as a setting, it should just be on

[crude bluff]

i play with vsync off and don't think I have many performance issues on my PC , but I do notice audio lagging behind or just being desynced sometimes. Idk if that's related to vsync, but I noticed this problem after starting with the first experimental branch. Not sure why it happens tbh lol. Might have happened prior, but I have no memory of it before.

[tawdry bane]

Running at 1440p fullscreen and CRT bloom off to start with... With vsync on I get around 40% GPU utilization. That jumps to 50% with vsync off.

Turning on CRT bloom with vsync off goes to 100%. Goes down to 41% with vsync on and CRT boom on.

So the culprit seems to be vsync off and CRT bloom on, for some reason. I think just hard-coding vsync to on and removing the setting seems reasonable. Some folks might complain though. But this game does not really benefit from high FPS 😛

[prime remnant]

You wouldn't be able to notice - since VSYNC caps it to your monitor refresh rate anyway

[rugged ibex]

not sure if you meant unable to disable VSYNC, but probably shouldn't do that - defaulting to VSYNC on sounds good though!

[prime remnant]

For Balatro I just don't see a reason why it would ever be off

[rugged ibex]

VSYNC decreases overall framerate (even when not capped) and increases input lag
I think it's probably good to have it on by default and having an option to turn it off

[hollow raptor]

well you can't remove the option, that'll ruin the speedrun
we need that sub-frame precision /s

wait, good lord, 2 minute slow mode? glad I spent it on a shitpost lmao

[solar vale]

While I understand why it won't matter for Balatro I do think it somewhat makes sense considering the benefit of vsync off is that you have a more up to date frame because generate more frames every frame, that gives a feel of better smoothness

[agile citrus]

so im not sure what changed in the last update or patch, but my framerate has tanked and im having noticable lag when opeing packs or loading into an bet for the first time, it also seems to be a problem when any new cards or calculaton has to be done. Ive tried turning everything off in the settings, crt, smoothing, shadows, vsync, all of it. Doesnt seem to matter, weather vsync was on or off. I can give my hard spec dump if needed, but yeah it seems like alot @sly violet was encountering as well.

[prime remnant]

Yeah I am working on a fix right now for these issues

[prime remnant]

Please note I have just pushed a new update for performance issues and need help to test and make sure it all works alright!

#1234623685743087666

Even if you didn't have issues before, any feedback on how it runs in this new update would help a lot

pinging for visibility, @agile citrus @tawdry bane @crude bluff @warm lichen @topaz edge @sly violet

Sorry for the notification but I think the issues you had should be fixed now

[plain ivy]

do you have the required C redistros in steams "common redistro" thing; it should be easy enough to package it together when publishing? should be in the steamworks installation tab; sorry i know youre more professional than me but just checking cause it could help? idk 🙂

[prime remnant]

Yes that's already in the pipe for when this update is actually released!

We have other unpublished changes still

[stone rapids]

this is a pretty neat skip first two blinds seed

[upper bison]

The only time i ever skipping constantly is to play around Ancient joker, but at that point i dont even care what the skip does i just care that ancient joker doesnt ask the same suit as the boss blind. most of the time skipping arent that useful

[crude bluff]

idk if anyone agrees with this but I wouldn't mind if madness gained x.75 mult to regain the strength it lost before. i feel like its just underperforming for me. i feel much less interested in picking it up now.

[ionic steeple]

personally i would just revert the change, but that's just my opinion and i could be biased since im #1 madness fan

[plain ivy]

i wouldnt be too against it. madness is a lot better in later stakes than the earlier ones

[upper bison]

I have found a bit of a visual problem with the new smaller stickers, with enough jokers, the stickers could get covered by the next jokers, one solution that i could think of is to change the position of the stickers to be on the left instead of on the right

this becomes more apparent in 7 jokers, which could be easily done in black deck with a negative, with the bigger stickers the problem is still there, but it would only show up when you have even more jokers than 8~9, which is more uncommon than only 7 jokers

[vocal arch]

solution idea: jokers with their stickers obscured could display their stickers above them?

[vestal zephyr]

the best solution is that the stickers should float around the card bouncing off the edges like the screensaver

[teal moth]

good change, now i can finally see my stickers when i have 12 thanks to anaglyph deck (forgot slo mode existed lmao)

[elder falcon]

Ohhhh moving the tags to the left. Interesting

[prime remnant]

I dislike how it covers the word Joker

UX W but a flavour L

[fickle kayak]

..put them bottom left?

[prime remnant]

The code becomes a lot more complex to do it that way because of things like Photograph and Half Joker

And I am lazy

[vestal zephyr]

i think the stickers kind of 'ruining' the aesthetic of the card actually makes sense, like getting something with an ugly sale sticker on it

[upper bison]

YOOO thats so nice now, now i can find my rental joker and strangle em

[hybrid onyx]

oh that reminds me, duping a wee joker with stickers using invisible joker makes the wee joker stickers be the wrong size and it looks odd. idk if it happens with other smaller jokers

[wheat warren]

joker duping is still wonky right?

[hybrid onyx]

yeah there's also the different card back but that is known

[vocal arch]

can you make this a toggle? i like the stickers on the right tbh, it scratches a brain itch for me lol

[topaz edge]

Ultimately when there are 10+ Jokers, the stickers won't be visible regardless :v Perhaps a button like "View stickers" (Like when you peek the deck) would be helpful, but I imagine it'd be too much to code (for now)

[robust echo]

is there a bug involving the RNG for re-rolling at shops? There's been a noticeable amount of times where i've re-rolled and gotten the exact same jokers, in the same orientation, back-to-back which seems like a super super low probability event to happen. Given the possibly # of items that can appear at shop, it seems to be very low chance of occurring. And i also dont remember ever seeing them in the order 'flipped' if that makes sense.

[willow galleon]

Probably a coincidence. But it would be a nice QoL update to prevent jokers currently in the shop from coming up again immediately after rerolling, since it defeats the purpose of a reroll in the first place

[terse gulch]

^The jokers you see in the shop could be prevented from appearing in the next reroll if you press the reroll button

[willow galleon]

That's what I mean yeah

[dreamy spindle]

I just had a game where square joker was an integral part of my build and I don't think the nerf brought it to the point where it wasn't viable. I know thats been a controversial change so I thought I'd give my experience

[dense meteor]

those runs can still happen, but like, it still takes 20 hands being played with a caveat to be able to reach odd todd's average scoring benefit, and thats also a common

[wheat warren]

u play 20 hands in like, 2 antes

[quaint hemlock]

was square joker changed back to +4 chips 🤔

[runic frost]

ya, he's just super bad now, not sure what the goal was

[stray wren]

I don't think it's super bad, still viable

[runic frost]

I mean he wasn't amazing before, and now he's just worse. Viable, perhaps, but it was an unecessary nerf for no reason.

[hushed junco]

But what if I want a specific joker, but I get it in shop with perishable sticker. I want to reroll to get one without sticker, tho now if it's in the next reroll I would need to reroll more than once to have a chance of finding it (which is of course unlikely but you get the idea).

Also it makes seeds less consistent e.g. if you buy/don't buy overstock you'll have different results in shop from duplicates being replaced on rerolls (or if you buy overstock after also buying a few items to shift the shop queue)

Or what if you replay seed but instead of rerolling you go into the next round - would shop still need to replace jokers from previous shop for consistency with rerolls?

[upper bison]

for seeds the seed are already different from each update anyway

[hushed junco]

That's not an argument, I mean after rarity updates are settled

[upper bison]

thats why we should do it now? before it settles

[hushed junco]

I don't mean seeds less consistent between updates, more like between players or reruns, it adds an extra niche mechanic which is not obvious to 99.99% of players. I think the idea sounds nice tho, just not so sure how would it work in an already complicated world of seeded runs. Maybe nobody will care that much

[oak stream]

does this mean we can get stake stickers in shop now

[weary garnet]

square post nerf is still the 2nd best common chips joker after runner

[oak stream]

actually why were stickers moved to the left

[weary garnet]

The nerf to square is only 1 round of scaling. If your goal is an ante 8 win, I still think square is nearly an automatic take ante 1-2, probably still viable ante 3, and probably no-go in ante 4+

[hushed junco]

#1233586567671709886 message

[oak stream]

makes sense

[runic frost]

that means square joker is 4 gold more expensive, under the best case scenario.

[hushed junco]

3$ because price was lowered

[weary garnet]

actually $1-2 because you are forced to play at least 1 hand per round anyway, and usually 2 hands most of the time in higher stakes
@runic frost name a better common chips joker than square aside from runner

[hushed junco]

yes but you'd also play those hands with old square, so not really an argument

[brazen perch]

the real question is 'what are 16 chips worth' in terms of money. Which is very hard to answer. maybe 2-3$, at the end of the game

[weary garnet]

My argument is this: since you'd otherwise clear rounds in 1-2 hands with a different joker than square, the marginal cost of scaling square by 12-16 chips per round instead of just 4-8 chips per round is only $1-2 more.

If you play with square but try to win in as few hands as possible, you will still net you probably 8 chips per round and you won't have lose extra money on those chips beyond what you would otherwise.

Basically, square grows at 4-8 chips per round for free vs the money you'd spend/lose playing hands with other jokers and then you can choose when to spend an extra $1-2 for those extra 4-8 chips as you see fit.

[brazen perch]

Yah but both versions of square joker benefit from this equally, is what stupid is saying.

I mean, I agree with the point you're making kind of. How much does it really 'cost you' to scale square.

[weary garnet]

Oh yeah, that's a fair point. Technically it is $3 worse than the current version after factoring in the price drop. But you won't actually have to pay that $3 if you can afford to wait an extra 2 rounds for it to scale up naturally without being forced into extra hands (assuming those 4-8 extra chips per round didn't actually matter)

edit: sorry for the edits, but it's very late & I'm struggling to communicate my point concisely & clearly

[brazen perch]

Here's how i see it: Square will always be 16 chips behind his previous counter part, and he costs 1$ less when you pick him up. Is that worth it or not worth it? How much would you pay for 16 chips at the start of the game, if you could add 16 chips to a joker? idk but i think the ammount you should be willing to pay is very low. Maybe its 1$ maybe its 2$. Probably not that much of a nerf either way.

[weary garnet]

Another way to look at it is how often are those 16 chips the difference between winning & losing? It will come up sometimes, but probably not as often as people are making it seem. It matters more earlier on but as you progress through the run, 16 chips is a smaller & smaller % of your final score.

I think that if you can pick it up and survive though 2 more antes (6-8 rounds) after with the ability to scale it quickly, then you're good to go at that point with less concern regarding the 16 "missing chips"

[brazen perch]

if you die/win by 20k~ points it was because of the nerf/lack of nerf, given you're using square and are doing gold stake.

[hushed junco]

Guessing that means from all 4 hands?
So with like 50mult (lets say green joker) and 2 xmult jokers (lets say blackboard and ramen) you get 300 mult, 16 * 300 * 4 = 19.2k

[brazen perch]

You did the math correctly, I assumed you had 350~ chips and need to make 100k point hands each round, can't remember just did the quick math and rounded in head

[vestal zephyr]

those cards having a few chips just made it a little easier to take them speculatively in the early game, now they have 0 it feels like more of a commitment

[hushed junco]

it was made that way to be consistent with all other scaling jokers

[vestal zephyr]

I understand the change, but it still has game theory and psychological effects

[brazen perch]

It will make it so you never consider buying them solely for the chips. For instance, 4 slots and then buy runner just to give you a little 20 chip boost if its really close to dieing soon. Though i dont think that's a big detriment

[vestal zephyr]

its just how the mind works, even though you know the mechanics, its still spending on something that gives nothing immediataly (of course everyone loses their mind over invisible)

[hushed junco]

That's funny, so people think blueprint shop 1 = good, but invisible (at any point) = bad? Haven't seen a single invisible joker hater yet, ngl

[crimson sorrel]

i love invisible joker

[vestal zephyr]

you misread/interpreted

[hushed junco]

Ah, so "Loses their mind over invisible" in a good way, as an exception? that makes more sense, lol

[hushed junco]

So an update, since I finally had a vampire run (screenshot 1)

As I already guessed, it feels around the level of any other uncommon joker (a bit worse to me personally, cuz I very often rely on enhancements). Took it as an experiment, I think around ante 4 or 5? since I had perishable midas earlier in the run and almost all my face cards were gold already. In the end it was X3.2 ? or X3.3 after the last hand.

Almost got screwed by the vessel, had to play 3 straights (luckily, I managed to draw them, but it was very risky).
I could have invested a bit more in the steel&red seal card(s), but I was somewhat under the pressure of scaling vampire and being able to draw a second straight consistently, so I skipped red seal(s?) earlier* (when my deck was at like 51-49 cards).

*Just checked with calculator (screenshot 2), and 1 red seal steel would make it so I still would need to play 3 straights, and 2 red seal steel make it so I need to play 2 straights (which was technically possible since I picked up a death card before the boss).
Had I not invested in midas early game it'd feel way worse for sure, so I won't say vampire is something I look forward to on high stake run.

[crude bluff]

ive only had a few runs with vampire but i so far feel like its strength is fine for an uncommon now. not to mention that being an uncommon also gives it the x1.5 if you happen to get baseball card. i agree that it doesnt feel very dominant. i think it feels fine

[obtuse forge]

based

[obtuse forge]

but wouldnt it make more sense for the stickers to stay where they are, but have the leftmost card shown on top? because the jokers trigger from left to right, shouldnt it also trigger from top to bottom? correct me if I'm wrong

[teal moth]

the word joker is to the left of the card art so it wouldn’t make sense for it to be covered up by layering of other jokers

[upper bison]

it makes more logical sense for the leftmost card to be on the bottom, because if you "trigger" a joker first, then you add into it with the next joker, you add it on top of that joker, not on the bottom, like slowly stacking a pile of jenga. I guess this also depends if your native language is a left to right language rather than right to left like arabic

[obtuse forge]

yeah i see that now

[teal moth]

to clarify on the confusion, the word “joker” on the card art is typically on the left side of the joker. If the leftmost joker is the topmost one, all those “joker”s would be covered up. Vayn also brought out a good point.

[obtuse forge]

dont they also appear on the other side of the card? albeit written upside down

[prime remnant]

I like this idea a lot

IMO it makes more sense, left joker is the top of the pile and as such gets triggered first

Also fixes the sticker placement issue, but covers up the word Joker when you have a bunch. However the actual word Joker isn’t covered by the stickers so you can still see it in the shop and when you have 5 or fewer Jokers

[upper bison]

as long as i can see the stickers im mostly fine about changing it this way

[amber ginkgo]

just found that the steam achievements are localized

[obtuse forge]

look, we know they're jokers aight? i dont need to read the card to know! /hj

[amber ginkgo]

though the descriptions of 10k, 1000k and 100000k are mis-written in simplified chinese (you can see 简体中文 localization channel here), maybe a double check on these localizations is needed :3

oops, checked all the localizations and everything is a bit weird :/

[teal moth]

seeing the jokers stack top to bottom from left to right compared to the cards stacking left to right from bottom to top is very contrasting (waiting for slo mode to expire)

[prime remnant]

I tried the hand stacking the other way too but the pips need to be at the top left for them, so this is the only way it works for playing cards

[hushed junco]

that looks very odd ngl

[prime remnant]

I dislike the upside down text

like quite a lot

[teal moth]

why do i feel like the jokers were in a stack and then slide to the left from the right

[hushed junco]

Is there a way to make perishable tag more contrasting on the blueprint btw? I had a friend not noticing it twice 😭

[prime remnant]

Every solution has a downside right now

• Keeping it normal with the stickers at the top right hides the stickers when there are more than 6 Jokers
• Keeping it normal with stickers at the top left hides the word Joker, which means that the average occurance of the word 'Joker' on these cards is upside down
• Switching the draw order of the Jokers means that with more than 6 Jokers, all the occurances of the word 'Joker' are upside down

So this is a preference thing unless someone suggests a silver bullet. My preference is to have stickers top left and keep Joker drawing like normal

[upbeat spindle]

just have sticker position be a setting by have it be top left by default

[teal moth]

i would rather something that small not be a setting, to keep things as simple as possible

[prime remnant]

If I added a setting for everything someone suggested should be a setting, menu navigation would be a nightmare. This is a 'pick it and stick with it' situation

the stakes are too low

I'm going with top left stickers

Also allows for top right stake completion stickers in the future

[teal moth]

random thought related to stake sticker effects, what if cards can also be eternal/rental/perishable 🤔

[amber ginkgo]

try bottom left stickers?

[tropic junco]

#1233586567671709886 message

[obtuse forge]

this is definitely my favorite so far

[amber ginkgo]

half joker rofl

[solar vale]

the i am lazy at the end

so real

[prime remnant]

It's a non-trivial amount of work for something that just doesn't matter that much

I don't mind top left honestly

[amber ginkgo]

but how do you deal with wee joker? there's the same render issue when putting stickers on top right

[prime remnant]

Everything is top justified

[tropic junco]

i've got a solution, just put the stickers on the back of the jokers so they don't get in the way

[prime remnant]

not bottom justified

[obtuse forge]

this will take some growing into

[prime remnant]

Wee joker scales the entire overlay sprite so you don't need to worry about the height

[placid venture]

no way, that makes Amber Acorn actually useful....

[teal moth]

oh yeah can we make square joker even -squarer by making it’s sprite square?

[prime remnant]

Honestly

...

let's see

[amber ginkgo]

in fact you cannot sell eternal jokers (you click the joker and see the sell button greyed out

[amber ginkgo]

ok this sticker is definitely smaller than the others XD

[placid venture]

iirc the proposed idea from modding channels is to have the stickers' locations randomized

[teal moth]

i think them looking uniform looks more aesthetically pleasing. edit: yoo my boy square joker is even more square

[rugged ibex]

finally, true squareness

[prime remnant]

Sharper corners?

[amber ginkgo]

seems a bit too big, should have more padding area

[teal moth]

what does sharper corners look like 🤔

[rugged ibex]

feels like it'd be hard to notice the sticker sometimes (especially with e.g. hologram/legendaries)

[solar vale]

tbh i feel like it makes sense for square joker to not have round corners

[prime remnant]

Be that as it may

I am gravitating toward the normal corners still

[sour sleet]

I dig it with the rounded ones

[teal moth]

true squareness or round corners? very hard choice

[prime remnant]

It's still square

[willow galleon]

Changing Square Joker's appearance is definitely more flavorful, but I think it's a bit ugiler now. I like the uniformness of the Jokers

[prime remnant]

It's actually a buff

better on Amber Acorn

(where chip joker order doesn't matter)

[amber ginkgo]

no I don't care about order of chip jokers

[placid venture]

clearly you should print xchip jokers to make it a buff....

[hushed junco]

ok but my holographic/polychrome square says otherwise

[prime remnant]

I love this stocky boi

[amber ginkgo]

so why the back side of joker card is not foil / holographic / polychrome / negative

[teal moth]

makes amber acorn even more easy + editions on irl cards usually don’t effect back

[rugged ibex]

how about making it more square-ish like photograph is? might be a nicer in-between format

[prime remnant]

Because right now it's 69X69 pixels

[amber ginkgo]

make it 64x64 to be more squareish

[rugged ibex]

can't argue with that

[ionic steeple]

ngl i would add some padding to the square joker
taking the whole card space looks weird
if it's possible of course

[tropic junco]

should the "O" in "Joker" be square instead of rectangle as well?

[prime remnant]

This was just a quick change - It would be some work to workshop this sprite. As an A/B test, is this better than before?

[ionic steeple]

i like the idea and it's probably better, but i still feel like it looks a little weird, making the square joker smaller would probably fix it but i know thats more work than just making the card a square

[prime remnant]

good > perfect
This patch will be going live this week on PC, we'll submit console immediately as well but that's a whole thing

Thanks for all the great feedback everyone! 1.0.1 Balatro is soooo much better than 1.0.0 Balatro IMO

[tawdry bane]

Yay! Square joker is square!

Thx for all your hard work here!

[woeful sedge]

it’s truly a great game. thanks for all your continued support 🫡

[strange bone]

How about slightly changing the sticker to be a few pixels to the right in the top-left, so it doesn't obstruct the word joker anymore? (crude photoshop to illustrate)

[prime remnant]

Sticker placement there covers the art for some jokers, and for the rental sticker it covers the art for most of them

I'd rather cover the word I think

[sour sleet]

Uhm akhually what if you have blueprint and brainstorm

[dense meteor]

oh damn youre actually adding that? i thought a fan made it

[teal moth]

yep, it’s pretty awesome (also welcome to 2 min slow mode land)

[dense meteor]

is this something thats planned? thats awesome! though i do enjoy my own solution to it lol (SORRY FOR PING OOPS)

[spring ravine]

repost: weird bug:
Skipped small blind for rare joker, played big blind, in shop i didn't want the joker but i had 5 jokers already, sold one of my jokers to buy the $0 rare and sell for $4.
after this i purchased the overstock voucher that was available and it did not update to 3 cards in the shop (every other time this would be the case)

[elder falcon]

Was thinking about this too and I figured the reason you mentioned moving the stickers slightly it in the patch notes was to not interfere with any of the art/text. Only other option I feel would be to move it off the card entirely into a separate tag. Not Ideal obviously but had to get his out of my head and on to digital paper

[teal moth]

that looks like a bookmark on a joker

[dense meteor]

this is really cool

[elder falcon]

Yea its not ideal, i was thinking it being more like a tag you have on the bottom or on teh sleeve of a tshirt. When theres 3 stacked like that it def looks like book marks or dividers though. Was just a quick mock. Only other thing I could think of is maybe a punch out on the bottom left like stencil and hanging chad, but the icon would need to be clear and visible enough to denote thgat its rental/eternal/perishable.

[robust echo]

Thank YOU for this awesome game

[strange bone]

There's a universe where it's like, a paperclip on the top of it with the rental/perishable/eternal symbol on it

[split mauve]

Sometimes suggestions pay off 🟥

[hushed junco]

this is a weird one
but I guess there's no easy way around it

[robust echo]

this would be a very welcome change and i think would not be really OP whatsoever, just a nice one to make game more enjoyable. I could see it maybe getting a taaaad more OP as you get up to 3/4 shop slots obviously. But not too bad maybe? Or even if that was viewed as OP, making it so you get at least ONE joker you havent seen before, so if your original shop had 2 jokers, and you re-roll and get (1) joker + 1 tarot, that 1 joker is guaraunteed to not be one of the prior 2 you had.

[ionic steeple]

make it white yellow paper as a contrast for the gold sticker

[robust echo]

or even simpler, each time u re-roll you are guaranteed to see at least 1 thing you didnt have prior to that specific re-roll

[hushed junco]

That's kinda like boon reroll works in hades, tho here you have much more joker possibilities

[tiny heron]

waitwaitwait, hold on, did flower pot get buffed from scoring cards to containing cards?!
edit: nvm ):

[hushed junco]

cards can be debuffed, but they need to be played (in the poker hand) > #🧪・experimental message
I think seeing double should follow same mechanic tbh, it is a bit confusing that they're different now

Perishable (banana, popcorn etc.) jokers with rental sticker still take money after they pop - the animation should be the other way around or no money should be taken

[tiny heron]

Huh, debuffed wild card counts as no suit for Flower Pot

[unborn pine]

I've encountered a bug after leaving the game and then relogging and continuing, the goal just disappeared.

[rugged ibex]

see also https://discord.com/channels/1116389027176787968/1219219474503172136 and https://discord.com/channels/1116389027176787968/1226931929387896833

[weary garnet]

oh my, it's beautiful 👀

[hollow raptor]

Hmm. I don't quite like the way the rental sticker is almost "hidden" behind hologram here. Maybe it's not SO bad when you can see the price is only $1, like, it's bound to make you go "hmm, that's not right", but if it was free from a tag, that might be a nasty surprise. And if it were eternal...

[tiny heron]

it seems like it only happens when the blind doesn't any reward

[plain ivy]

the stickers are being moved to the left

[hushed junco]

it would still get hidden when hologram floats to the other side, wouldn't it?

[plain ivy]

yeah thats a specific issue with that joker being layered. im sure thunk will just more all stickers up a layer

[rugged ibex]

how would that work?

[dense ermine]

getting this issue on startup when running the new beta

[upper bison]

this is one of the reason why we turned the sticker a bit smaller and to the edge more no? so we can see hologram's more, so youre kinda late on that

[prime remnant]

If you verify file integrity on your version I just pushed a new update a minute ago that should fix this!

#🧪・experimental message

[tiny heron]

nice, i hope this one can fix the slow downs i was getting on very early antes

[hushed turtle]

love the new square look haha

[final tiger]

had this happen earlier, not sure why

[vocal hollow]

Just a suggestion - for Obelisk, it would be helpful if your most played poker hand that would reset the card was shown in the description, maybe in smaller font

[final tiger]

and again

apologies, I reinstalled the files, all fine now, one of my mods is doing that somehow...

[frigid hawk]

lmao square joker

[obtuse forge]

bro got a trim

[obtuse forge]

how would this work when there are multiple hands tied for most played, you think? maybe some sort of truncation to the displayed text?

[prime remnant]

[elder falcon]

I'm gonna have to issue a retraction

[teal moth]

@dense meteor look at this

[dense meteor]

oh shit it is my b

[prime remnant]

Wait is it 69x69?

[sour sleet]

thats gonna be real hard when you can have several

[tawdry bane]

Just a last second bug... Verdant leaf did not debuff my stone cards that were drawn in my initial hand. Subsequent drawn stone cards were debuffed.

[vocal hollow]

Well maybe obelisk shouldnt reset on tied hands so you don’t get soft locked 😉 just kidding. Maybe if there’s a tie it picks one at random? Or the lowest ranked one resets it. But that might be too complex

[brazen perch]

Is it just me or does square joker look rectangular?

[vocal hollow]

This is my makeshift solution. This seems against your standards however so I'm not sure

[prime remnant]

If I were to change Obelisk to make it better to remember, I’d make it Jiggle if you have a hand selected that will make it reset

[vocal hollow]

Also a good idea! That could also apply to blinds like Psychic and The Eye

[prime remnant]

The UI stuff is too complex and doesn’t save any actions by the player, you still have to hover over it to see instead of clicking the one button to see

[brazen perch]

add a parenthesis with all invalid hands similair to 'currently x1 mult'

[prime remnant]

Saves 1 action I suppose - exiting the menu

[obtuse forge]

seconded

[teal moth]

the jiggle solves everything in balatro (well not everything everything but you get the idea 🙂 )

[green cove]

Just out of curiosity, do you have any plans on adding more jokers and are you willing to say around what updates we would see them?

[crude bluff]

making it jiggle like tradin card would be a nice change. i agree

[upper bison]

we need more jiggling jokers agreed