1.0.1e

[lyric spindle]

def hardest

[smoky bison]

I think it's just a consistent thing in roguelikes, characters hard to get off the ground in runs intrinsically lose more, and visa versa

[dusty quarry]

They make sense as the tougher decks with cool upsides to go alongside

[ocean forge]

one secret advantage of nebula is you can get the observatory voucher at any point, basically a 1.5x mult if you get a fool card

[smoky bison]

The more agency you get as a player the less likely you are to lose if you're skilled

[unborn sparrow]

painted is definitely my favorite deck right now

[restive hinge]

-1 - consumable

[spiral rapids]

Black Deck made me appreciate the balance of the amount of hands, it changes the scaling a bit, and the economy early on

[restive hinge]

Which is weird

[oak stream]

and thats easy considering you already have telescope

[smoky bison]

And as such the ones that give you the least agency when you're weakest will fall more commonly in skilled players' hands

[ocean forge]

still a 1.5x mult for no joker cost

[dusty quarry]

Yeah but on the other hand, you can just have stuff like melting vs crystal where going deep with x character doesn't really play safe anyway

[restive hinge]

I want diamonds to be buffed

Rough gem is soo meh

[oak stream]

i'd like gem to be buffed to $2

[prime remnant]

@

[valid hawk]

honestly I think nebula is great now that the high stakes no longer completely murder it

[oak stream]

held shift for too long

[oak stream]

^^^^

[ocean forge]

$2 rough gem might be too much

[prime remnant]

It was $2 at one point and yeah it was way too good

[oak stream]

ehhh rn buisness is better

[restive hinge]

I had a nebula deck run

I had multiple blue seals

And those went to waste due to less consumable slots

[dusty quarry]

I think with the extra triggers/incentive for triggers rough gem isn't so bad

[smoky bison]

I think there's an argument to be made that in that situation there's very few characters with limited agency because they're all intrinsically strong in their own ways so none of them really struggle at the start, besides maybe melting but a skilled player can minimize that downside way more than some other games

[unborn sparrow]

its funny that on nebula blue seals are worse lol

[restive hinge]

So much for planet synergy deck

[ocean forge]

1 in 2 chance to get 3 dollars per diamond card

[oak stream]

i dont mind it

[prime remnant]

I think gem is good, I take it and pog

[smoky bison]

I take it and then I die early because I drown in my money

[valid hawk]

I mean, blue seals are already worse when you have telescope

[oak stream]

its def a take if i have an empty slot

[smoky bison]

It's good but hard to know how much value is enough to stop with it

[dusty quarry]

Yeah that's fair

[ocean forge]

no, not really

[smoky bison]

Because it's so consistently nice

[restive hinge]

Comparing to the other suits, well it makes diamond the worst

[spiral rapids]

Sometimes I take gem and remember that my diamonds aren't actually any stronger inherently

And quickly change course

[ocean forge]

with telescope, you can easily get stuck at non-upgraded hands once you pivot to higher hands

[prime remnant]

It's just hard to compare to the other rock jokers

[dusty quarry]

But muneez...

I think the rock jokers all do their own thing which is awesome

[smoky bison]

biggest problem lol, I keep hunting for the tarot and then I die realizing that didnt help me besides give me more money lol

[valid hawk]

why would you pivot with telescope

[restive hinge]

Prty sure you can earn more with good mail in rebates

[spiral rapids]

The thematic touches in this game are

[brazen perch]

its an econ joker, and it works with every type of hand type too. Its a relatively weak econ joker though unless you play diamond flushes

[restive hinge]

Also mail is too good

[hollow raptor]

hell I still pog when I find arrowhead early on with any deck

[ocean forge]

the higher hands scale better

[oak stream]

mail is better than gem by a mile

[smoky bison]

Isn't mail in rebate just gold standard for eco though? 5 is crazy even with low discards

[oak stream]

nerf it back to 3

[restive hinge]

Yep

[dusty quarry]

Ok but imagine events that happen in balatro, where you get offered like multiple of the same family of jokers and you can only choose one or whatever

That would go hard imo

[restive hinge]

Around 10 dollars per game

That is very good

[smoky bison]

Slay the Balatro would go hard 👀

[brazen perch]

that would go hard, you get like 4 choices that all 1/4th the total amount of jokers in the joker pool.

[valid hawk]

I mean mail is better, but that applies to pretty much all econ jokers

[sage snow]

Why don't we care about balancing the decks around each other again

[valid hawk]

except like perkeo

[ocean forge]

its a single player game

[valid hawk]

it's a rougelike

[brazen perch]

though that mode would probably be pretty easy

[spiral rapids]

Because game funner

[dusty quarry]

Slay the jester 2, where localthunk himself is the final superboss and you can't score more than 300k per hand and the blind is 1m

[prime remnant]

I think it's more interesting if there are differences in difficulty for the decks. I'd ask why should they all be the same?

[restive hinge]

I mean blue is strictly better than red deck

[sinful tulip]

I don't like that ToDo List was nerfed down to $4, it was one of the only mechanics in the game that rewarded playing a variety of different hand types

[smoky bison]

Different playstyles, not really a competition I think? Honestly I'd rather they all stay unique and somewhat viable than be consistent but homogenized

[oak stream]

the fact that you get only $4 for playing a specific hand but $5 for discarding only 1 card of a certain rank (which you can manipulate via deck)

is very weird

[hollow raptor]

okay but black deck is so crippled by that -1 starting hand
they don't all need to be the same, but they do all need to be fun, right?

[unborn sparrow]

yorick
blue and red are definitely the most boring but also they're the starter beginner decks

[restive hinge]

To do is still fine

[oak stream]

to do is fine

[restive hinge]

Yorick is damn legendary

[smoky bison]

Like black is the worst because it's bad at early game but it still has benefit late game and if we counted strength by how good you are lategame I think it would be tier 0

[oak stream]

its just mail

[dusty quarry]

That's kinda awesome - where do you want to go next were you to add more decks though

[restive hinge]

Rarely gonna be on the run

[prime remnant]

I think some people really like the challenge of there being a hardest deck/difficulty to beat the game with

[ocean forge]

dont say that someones gonna personify them

[valid hawk]

black is fun imo

[restive hinge]

Also more hand = more money

[dusty quarry]

What about stakes on challenges themselves then

[unborn sparrow]

i mean yeah but it's not strictly better

[hollow raptor]

ghhhh that's... an airtight answer...

[smoky bison]

Like I think if the bosses were way harder black deck would be way more powerful, but there's nothing more than ante 8 so it's overkill when it gets good

[unborn sparrow]

there's also a few bosses

[spiral rapids]

Black deck being hard did make me feel good beating higher antes

[restive hinge]

But 90% of the time better

[spiral rapids]

I cannot say the same for certain aspects of the final 2 challenges

[valid hawk]

and it's not unreasonable to win with black deck, if it was I think it'd be different

[spiral rapids]

Jokerless I started to hate seeing the wheel and spectral packs

[restive hinge]

Violet is still hard

I find jokerless super ez now

Straights ftw

[smoky bison]

I'd like to see more stakes though tbh with more antes in a slay the spire kind of way, I really love how that game is completely different when you hit A20 and I think there's lots of room to do something game changing vs a normal white stake run

[restive hinge]

What if each stake has different modifiers

Instead of having all the modifiers before it

That would be epic

[sage snow]

Black deck is 50% suffering 50% challenge

[prime remnant]

I love the stakes where they are right now

[hollow raptor]

ngl now I kinda want some kind of specially-made label of "decks that are meant to be hard", like a set of 3 (or some other satisfying number) decks that the game directly acknowledges is hard

[spiral rapids]

I love the new experimental stakes

[smoky bison]

Like the changes with gold stake were very good but I also kind of liked old gold stakes in the sense that they changed the game in a subtle yet drastic difference that ultimately it was very different, but it wasn't perfected so you lost with little agency

[brazen perch]

challenges WOULD GO HARD with stakes

[restive hinge]

Ahh difficulty system

[brazen perch]

i would salivate

[ocean forge]

i did a bunch of orange stake black decks run earlier today, i think most of them failed because of me (and/or rng but thats also partially my fault) rather than the deck

[restive hinge]

Should also be there for challenges

[placid venture]

c+ players in shambles

[brazen perch]

imagine gold and orange stake with jokerless

[sage snow]

What's a c+ player

[brazen perch]

nothing changed lol

[restive hinge]

Possible

But too rng

[prime remnant]

worse than a b- player

better than a c

[placid venture]

true

[dusty quarry]

-1 discard would be nasty tbh

[restive hinge]

Just realized the perishable change is very good

[smoky bison]

I really like them but honestly I think there's more possibilities for a "final stake" and -1 hand felt more like it than rentals, which is better for gameplay but for a challenge it's a little middling

[brazen perch]

completionist +

[restive hinge]

Now we don’t see those scaling jokers with it as blanks

[hollow raptor]

oh god that just gave me an idea for a terrible sticker.

[restive hinge]

Also some scaling jokers weren’t listed

[prime remnant]

I mean I could just crank the purple stake scaling increase until orange/gold have a win rate the same ase 1.0.0

[restive hinge]

Like hologram

[spiral rapids]

Also, can I just say that the steam deck was basically made for balatro, and its been the only way I've played since release

[hollow raptor]

"random chance of this joker being debuffed when you start the round"
or per hand maybe, idk. like that one final boss blind but just on a single joker

[valid hawk]

oh no

[brazen perch]

Don't tease me

[restive hinge]

I think people got more skill overtime

[prime remnant]

they are just numbers

[spiral rapids]

A new stake on top of gold? Hehe

[ocean forge]

platinum stake

[hollow raptor]

diamond stake

[ocean forge]

plutonium stake

[dusty quarry]

Do you have access to win rate data beyond people just sending in stats? I forgor

[brazen perch]

You can't trust anyones 'sent in' stats lol

[prime remnant]

no but I do have the game collect it locally so I can make people opt in and send it all at some point

[sage snow]

We need the harder decks to be on fire in the deck selection screen because it looks cool (worst opinion I have ever had)

[dusty quarry]

Ahhhh ok

[restive hinge]

I wonder what is the least used joker

[valid hawk]

honestly all the decks should be on fire

[hollow raptor]

reminds me of the kirby difficulty slider in star allies

[restive hinge]

Merry andy imma guess

[spiral rapids]

I think there will always be a thing where certain players can manipulate the game and make it seem easier than it is. I have watched my roommate play and she has only won 1 game on white stake. But she loves it too!

[ocean forge]

its probably one of the jokers locked behind specific enhancements, ie stone joker

[restive hinge]

Or high skill jokers

Like brainpower

Flower pott grrrr

[ocean forge]

merry andy is pretty good anyway

[hollow raptor]

https://pa1.aminoapps.com/7033/1bc3e9f4bae7f0ded029b4b20cb96336f8c2db88r1-640-360_hq.gif

[restive hinge]

-1 hand size goes a long way

[hollow raptor]

aight well it'll just be a url then

[prime remnant]

I'd be more interested in the joker with the lowest ratio of times taken/times rolled in shop

[restive hinge]

Is that og mad joker?

[prime remnant]

lowest pick rate

[hollow raptor]

(actually iirc there's an even harder difficulty than this in the game lol)

[brazen perch]

Yah, i agree it's probably madness

[smoky bison]

Honestly I think an end all be all final stake would just be maybe 2-4 more antes with a new final set or something with very unique effects, like -1 joker slot or something, but still a ways away imo

[smoky bison]

Probably red card, even with packs it's just not good at all especially since they're even better now

[ocean forge]

normal joker would be maybe high up there? idk i feel like itd have a high pick rate in round 1 or something

[spiral rapids]

I basically never pick loyalty card but that's just because I can't be bothered keeping track of it

[crude bluff]

-1 joker slot feels like the same problem that old gold stake was

[spiral rapids]

I can't remember does the joker update visually?

[ocean forge]

red card is good!!!

[restive hinge]

when will there be a random deck

[prime remnant]

everyone is saying different cards lmao

[dusty quarry]

It's gotta be superposition surely

[restive hinge]

Where a random deck will be chosen that you unlocked

[smoky bison]

Normal is consistent and good, I'd always love a normal ante 1

[low cradle]

superposition is likely

[restive hinge]

I found that useful

[low cradle]

seance as well

maybe idol

[restive hinge]

I get 2ish tarots per round

From it

And i didn’t try that much to think

[valid hawk]

1.0.0 mad joker is probably pretty up there

[dusty quarry]

Like actually, genuinely, superposition is so hyper specific and so anti-synergistic with good straight builds

[hollow raptor]

hardest most finalest stake ever: game doesn't end at ante 8, you must beat ante 16 to win

[smoky bison]

Seance actually is probably worse than red

[restive hinge]

Fingers

[smoky bison]

It's just not worth at all

[ocean forge]

thatd just be stupid

[spiral rapids]

One time I made seance work and it was so hype

[dusty quarry]

I have found use out of it but it is factually the worst card to play with straights

[restive hinge]

Fingers + seance

[low cradle]

if youre going straights its optimal to remove your aces immediately yeah

[hollow raptor]

no kidding lmao

[low cradle]

along with 2s and kings

[restive hinge]

Tho most spectrals suck lol

[low cradle]

although aces are worse bc they cant be part of an open 4-card straight

[crude bluff]

i mean seance is kinda probably the arguably most situational card. a hand that is a rare deck archetype

[placid venture]

Green/Purple stake being harder than 1.0.0 on Ante 5+ is funny

[valid hawk]

I'm pretty sure the worst card to play with straights would be like stuntman

[low cradle]

they mean aces

[crude bluff]

it is easy with smeared, but just hard

[low cradle]

not jokers

[dusty quarry]

The classic poker fallacy though, it's awesome taoking about this

[dusty quarry]

Playing card.

[restive hinge]

When will cards showing in shop voucher get a buff

[brazen perch]

8ball Madness Loyalty Card Seance Super Position Golden Ticket Showman for regular runs are probably the least taken / time seen (ignoring $cost)

[sour sleet]

I just used world on a debuffed card on the pillar, and it...undebuffed it? is that new?

[restive hinge]

Showman is used alot lol

[dusty quarry]

AK is only stronger than 9T as a holdem hand on it being top of range in the case of anything other than a straight

[brazen perch]

Only on endless

or with like stencil ig maybe

[dusty quarry]

Not showman

[ocean forge]

kings and 2s become the 3rd and 2nd worst straight cards then right? because theyre right next to the worst straight card

[restive hinge]

Ppl still get it a lot pre endless

[brazen perch]

only if you're aiming for endless*

[agile citrus]

my GF just did a run, and the she had the WalkieTalkie with perishable and negative, it then debuffed it self, she sold it, and the negative effect stayed applied, meaning she had 6 joker slots without the negative card.

[restive hinge]

Madness is also prty good

[smoky bison]

Showman making some packs have dupes is probably it's best secret perk, but also duplicate of a good joker is just a run winner imo, if I have the spare money and the slot I take it

[restive hinge]

That boss blind buff is kinda epic

[smoky bison]

That isn't often though I must admit

[dusty quarry]

Yes, they have the same amount of possible straights as A

[low cradle]

yes, king and 2 are only part of two straights so theyre the next worst, then queen and 3 bc theyre only in three straights

[restive hinge]

Not unless you can only use 1 card

Megas do benefit it

[dusty quarry]

Nah this doesn't make much sense to me

[smoky bison]

I mean for tarots and planets, sometimes you have reasons to hold the cards but you'd like more of them

[valid hawk]

showman is trash for 8 antes

[dusty quarry]

Madness is nigh on insta pick in ante 1/2 is the thing

[valid hawk]

it is very good for endless tho

[placid venture]

Can confirm

[dusty quarry]

Showman is usable in non endless

[restive hinge]

Loualty is pointless

[dusty quarry]

But I am addicted to photograph triggering

[restive hinge]

I never got loyalty to work

Hanging chad

On top

[dusty quarry]

Loyalty is really bad but it can be made to work

[low cradle]

loyalty burglar is like kind of fine

[restive hinge]

Very inconsistent is the problem

[dusty quarry]

Nah you can get it consistent with the right jokers

[restive hinge]

Better of getting acrobat if i were in this situation

[crude bluff]

i mean if u have a solid build and are just getting a free ride, showman is a nice card to fill extra slot

for chance to make ur build even better

[smoky bison]

Acrobat is just better loyalty 90% of the time yeah

[dusty quarry]

Needs support but the support it needs tends to be stuff you already pick up if you see

[hollow raptor]

tbh if I see The Pillar on ante 1 and I'm not on a streak, I just restart

[low cradle]

i mean if i had burglar id rather have loyalty than acrobat

[restive hinge]

Too specific tho

[hollow raptor]

I don't wanna deal with it...

[low cradle]

more xmult and could possibly trigger twice a round

[ocean forge]

the only issue w burgalar is purple seals

[restive hinge]

99%

If you have acro then dusk works amazing

[ocean forge]

i think if i had to choose between burgalar or purple seals id choose purple seals

[restive hinge]

Yeah

[dusty quarry]

Golden ticket just seems awful without triggers but I already take more triggers than I should so maybe I should run it? Idk

[smoky bison]

I mean really just depends on how often you take burglar ngl

[hoary path]

honestly, I still think glass joker is a contender for least taken

[restive hinge]

It is the most underrated joker

[ocean forge]

only bc you dont see it that often

[restive hinge]

0.75 goes a long way

[hollow raptor]

does glass joker only appear under specific conditions?

[crude bluff]

doesnt glass joker require a glass card in deck to even show up

[dusty quarry]

Easy, just get retcon to get you the uppercut or whatever it's called

[brazen perch]

Glass joker isn't seen very often

[hollow raptor]

yeah that's what I'm thinking

[brazen perch]

yes

[low cradle]

you need to own a glass card

[restive hinge]

Having a glass card in your deck

[crude bluff]

it would make sense that conditional jokers would be rare

[hollow raptor]

cool

as suspected

[ocean forge]

i had it in my most recent orange deck run and it only ever went up to 1.75x lmao

[smoky bison]

Need to have a glass card in deck, and doesn't count glass cards previously broken which is imo it's worst feature

[crude bluff]

i feel like the stone card ones are ones i rarely go for unless im doing a weird plasma run

[restive hinge]

Flush + death with it goes very well

[dusty quarry]

Pick rate doesn't care about how often you find it, it cares about how often you take it when you find it

[smoky bison]

Because if I have glass cards I'm playing them usually, and if they break I'd rather have the bonus before I see glass joker

[dusty quarry]

Also doesn't appear without glass in your deck

[hollow raptor]

TRUE

[upbeat spindle]

jokers like these that scale off of a specific card enhancement but aren't retroactive should have their spawning restrictions removed

imo

[restive hinge]

Also oops synergy with glass joker

Indirect buff

[smoky bison]

I think it'd be extremely low then tbh because most people will put a glass card in their deck than a stone card, and if they dont have room they therefore skip glass joker

[brazen perch]

Yes, i agree but my point was if you only see glass joker when you have glass in your deck, its probably not NEVER picked like 8ball/loyalty... etc

[valid hawk]

I feel like glass joker is weird

[low cradle]

oh yeah glass joker isnt listed as a joker that cant be perishable

[hoary path]

yeah, glass joker is the oddest of oddballs. A joker that only gets value when something bad happens is not my favorite way to play. Same with Mr Bones.

[restive hinge]

Stone is ehhh, steel is more likely tho

[ocean forge]

oops

[restive hinge]

Hologram as well

For some reason

[dusty quarry]

Yeah wait why can enhanced card jokers not appear in shop without the card but suit jokers without the suit can? Grrrrrrrrrr

[valid hawk]

it's theoretically good, but retriggers are way better for glass builds

[low cradle]

yea hologram was caught earlier, thunk mistook it for throwback lol

[ocean forge]

i see lucky cat way more than glass joker but only bc i play lucky cards way more

[hollow raptor]

assumed to be intentional but still weird

[low cradle]

thunk said hologram was gonna be added to the list

[smoky bison]

I'd definitely take a steel joker though because it's practically 0 downside to add steel, vs glass you might not want to run the risk of breaking if all your mult is jokers

[restive hinge]

What else did thunk forget

[crude bluff]

why isnt there a wildcard version

[smoky bison]

And if I put glass on a card I don't want I'm playing it often to break it faster

[crude bluff]

i feel like i never go for wild cards literally ever

[dusty quarry]

Flower pot

[restive hinge]

Cuz wild card sucks

[crude bluff]

i thought that didn't work

[dusty quarry]

Which is honestly more ok than I thought it was

[ocean forge]

wild cards are def a weak card enhancement

[crude bluff]

unless im crazy

[restive hinge]

Can’t even make straight flushes smh

[dusty quarry]

Wild cards are still indispensable for flower pot

[ocean forge]

it somewhat works

[restive hinge]

Should get the lucky card buff tbh

[crude bluff]

i learned recently that smeared didnt work with flower pot for some reaso

[low cradle]

playing four wilds triggers pot

[ocean forge]

it somewhat works

[smoky bison]

works but every wild card is like a substitute for a suit, so if you have 3 suits and a wild card it'll become the missing suit same with 2 suits and 2 wild cards, it's not a wild card counts as all 4

[low cradle]

as does playing 2 blacks and 2 reds with smeared

[restive hinge]

I wish lovers also had the magician buff

It would be amazing

[valid hawk]

wilds and smeared do work, flower pot just always requires 4 cards

[brazen perch]

You could argue that gift card is a scaling joker

[restive hinge]

Nah

I don’t think so

[ocean forge]

it scales a value technically

[hollow raptor]

dude I got gift card and swash on my most recently winning black deck run, it was fun

[dusty quarry]

Idk lovers is still usable, much more than I thought it was. It's not that bad

[crude bluff]

egg is more of a scaling joker than gift card i feel like but i see what u mean

[restive hinge]

Then egg as well if that is the case

[low cradle]

its scaling persists after it debuffs so its fine being perishable probably

same with egg

[smoky bison]

Swashbuckler and sac dagger though 👀

[ocean forge]

any joker that causes a value to increase is a scaling joker

[dusty quarry]

But maybe I'm just coping

[restive hinge]

Can’t make flush straights

Which is a massive shame

[dusty quarry]

??

Yes it can

[ocean forge]

you get fucked over by bosses tho bc you cant use wild cards to make poker hands against suit debuffers

[dusty quarry]

Yeah wild cards still suck

[ocean forge]

it acts as if they arent wild

[dusty quarry]

I don't think they're good but uknow

[ocean forge]

bc theyre debuffed

[hoary path]

I always kinda wanted some kind of menu to see what boss blinds I've already beaten in a run.

[smoky bison]

Maybe lovers is fine as is, otherwise flush builds would have the option of pocket suit changer + lovers for an instant flush

[dusty quarry]

Also just get directors cut 4head

[brazen perch]

Oh my god guys....

Oh my god

[dusty quarry]

?

[brazen perch]

Yorick was not mentioned

[smoky bison]

I'd love that to be marked in the blinds menu

[restive hinge]

One of the worst tarots

[brazen perch]

😿

[dusty quarry]

Yorick has a pick rate of 1

Because you can't just refuse him

[brazen perch]

Yorick is a non-retro scaling joker

[dusty quarry]

Oh

[restive hinge]

I hand this stupid idea to buff lovers

Or wildcards

[crude bluff]

can legendary even be perishable

[ocean forge]

in that sorta menu, id want to see a history of previous played poker hands and their scores, bc i have a bad memory

[brazen perch]

yes

[dusty quarry]

Yeah but you can't get a stickered legendary outside of a challenge

[hollow raptor]

I think "Oops! All 6s" is one of the few things in the game that alludes to a 1 in 3 chance now

[restive hinge]

Make the world act like death for suits

[brazen perch]

wait what?

[smoky bison]

I mean there's always room for bad tarots, I think it's flexiblity is good as is, better than stone tbh

[brazen perch]

i got told you can find eternal perkeo

were they memeing?

[dusty quarry]

In a challenge

[restive hinge]

Stone is very good for specific builds

[ocean forge]

then you have no spades suit changer

[prime remnant]

You can't get a stickered Joker in the normal game without vetting it first

[restive hinge]

And for lovers well you can just luck on the specific suit

[hollow raptor]

well I think you shouldn't be able to, it wouldn't make sense for randomly given jokers to have stickers

[prime remnant]

so Jokers that directly spawn into your Joker area can't have a sticker

[brazen perch]

okay, so it was a meme then thank you

[crude bluff]

so from judgement and from soul then

[hoary path]

Spawn a joker directly into my joker area

[crude bluff]

makes sense

[prime remnant]

or riff raff yeah

[hollow raptor]

I do like that as a "the game can't just ruin your run permanently" countermeasure

[hoary path]

....

[smoky bison]

Lovers is more generic though I think there's way more situations I would make a lovers than I would make a stone unless I was doing it because my build can use a stone card, if it's full house or straights or something stone cards are basically nothing

[crude bluff]

yeah that too i was just thinking

[restive hinge]

What if, get this, both of them get buffed to be able to change 2 cards

[ocean forge]

yeah i feel like stone cards are maybe worse than lovers bc i dont play high card as much as flush-type builds

[restive hinge]

That makes them less sucky

[hollow raptor]

2 wild cards, hmm

[crude bluff]

i mean stone cards are legit good on plasma

[smoky bison]

technically invisible is spawning an exact copy and keeps stickers but it's also not gaining any additional stickers so the point is moot

[crude bluff]

if u dont have anything decent lol

[ocean forge]

chips in general are good on plasma

[low cradle]

lovers buff kind of goes against the direction i think thunk wants with flushes being discouraged for new players

but also lovers is sooooo baaaad

[smoky bison]

Or at least I assume that's how it works? It does the spawning into your joker tab animation so that's what I'm going off of lol

I don't know if there's actual coded differences between how the other spawning joker mechanics works

[crude bluff]

yeah thats what i mean. they do meet a niche lol

[placid venture]

Invisible Joker creates an exact copy and that's it

[restive hinge]

Does invisible not get the stickers of its copied card?

[prime remnant]

it removes eternal

[restive hinge]

Or i never encountered it

[ocean forge]

marble joker is kinda weak except on high card builds

[placid venture]

what!

[smoky bison]

really? I've never had that happen wow

[crude bluff]

i thought i got triple eternal of same card

the other day

[smoky bison]

Shoving that into the memory vault

[ocean forge]

isnt ankh the one that keeps eternal

[prime remnant]

it says in the description if you have an eternal joker

[upbeat spindle]

ankh copies eternal

[smoky bison]

I did as well but I did it with ankh

[crude bluff]

it was probably ankh then

[oak stream]

i think its either red card/jolly and sly

[crude bluff]

but i know for sure i duplicated an eternal lol

[smoky bison]

Yeah ankh doesn't remove eternal which is probably a buff tbh

Because double ankh is so good

[hollow raptor]

Scaling jokers starting at 0 feels kinda bad to me bc it means those jokers offer truly nothing unless you already have the ability to play into them. It'd be nice to take them and receive a tiny lil boost just to get you started.

[sour sleet]

yeah, for runner especally i found it odd

[hollow raptor]

Like, red card does nothing until you spend more money to skip a booster pack
whyyyy?

[bright helm]

I still wish Superposition would get it's effect changed. I feel like it is the most niche Common joker

[oak stream]

what

[hollow raptor]

is red card secretly busted? am I the real fool?

[crude bluff]

i mean scaling jokers dont really pop off immediately as it is

[smoky bison]

does ankh roll fairly for eternals and non eternals and I've just been getting unlucky btw? or does it do something similar to madness where it tries to destroy a joker every time

[placid venture]

local did you mistake Negative for Eternal

[oak stream]

red card destroys your econ for 0 benefit

[dusty quarry]

Yeah I'm confused by this too

[smoky bison]

I don't think I've ever had it copy a non eternal lol but then again I don't risk it and I sell usually so it's mostly 50/50 flips

[placid venture]

Invis removes Negative not Eternal

[smoky bison]

I was thinking that yeah

[oak stream]

they had 1 request in their name

XD

[smoky bison]

I know it says for negative but removing eternal too is actually a really cool buff idea

[ocean forge]

if invis copied negative it would be so broken in endless

[crude bluff]

yeah i think it might dupe eternal

[hollow raptor]

I'd love to know this too

[oak stream]

is it a buff or a nerf

[placid venture]

it dupes eternal

[oak stream]

because ankh

[placid venture]

also yea please don't reply ping me thanks 🙏

[tiny heron]

I don't get it?

[smoky bison]

I mean depends on your build, mostly if you're madness or not. Though madness would probably destroy the invis before it procs tbh

[sinful tulip]

If I have madness, and an eternal joker, and a non-eternal joker, will madness always destroy a joker? (Is this the question?)

[hollow raptor]

my experimentation with it says yes
like, madness only picks randomly from your destructible jokers. It won't treat eternals as a chance to not destroy a non-eternal.

[smoky bison]

Madness does work like that, but I'm asking if ankh does as well

[crude bluff]

madness will only destroy non eternal jokers or destory nothing

it cant destory eternal

[smoky bison]

Because I haven't had a scenario I think where it's not destroyed something unless I only have one thing to copy

I just haven't had that come up enough though so I'm asking if someone has seen it copy a non-eternal and attempt to destroy an eternal

[spiral rapids]

It won't destroy an eternal, but it won't automatically copy the non-eternal/eternal, as I understand it

[crude bluff]

but yes it would destory a random non-eternal

[ocean forge]

madness has the doofiest runs bc you get such trash eternal jokers and still win

[smoky bison]

Well I mean yeah but I've lost so many flips I just want to confirm it's possible before lol

[crude bluff]

i got my first purple stake win with madness tbh on 1.0

idk what i even had but madness was popping off

[ocean forge]

i think i won orange stake with just 3 jokers:
eternal foil spades joker
eternal foil red card
madness

[upbeat spindle]

you know ankh tries to destroy all jokers right? not just one

[smoky bison]

I remember having a madness run where I just took 4 eternals and madness and I think I got whatever the one that debuffs unless you sell? And I just powered through it

[crude bluff]

i won with vampire on my first orange stake

i remember cuz i was suffering thru orange on 1.0 lol

[upbeat spindle]

so all non-eternal ones would get destroyed if it copies an enternal one

[ocean forge]

i always love to just power theu verdant

[placid venture]

Local said Invisible Joker removes Eternal from copy earlier

[crude bluff]

yes

[smoky bison]

It doesn't destroy the one it copies nor the copy though right? I've never seen that happen when I have an eternal and a regular, it always just hits the eternal and destroys the regular, so I'm asking if it's bad luck or a quirk

[prime remnant]

I mistook negative and eternal

[placid venture]

yeah

[smoky bison]

All good lol

[prime remnant]

my b

[upbeat spindle]

probably bad luck

[placid venture]

all g

[spiral rapids]

Well, sounds like local owes us a buff (/s)

[crude bluff]

i was gonna say i thought it did cuz i thought i did that the other day, but i trusted the dev more than my own memory lol

[upbeat spindle]

it would be a risky move anyways to try copy a non-eternal with ankh when u also have enternals

[placid venture]

invis removing stickers would be a nice buff

but unnecessary

[hollow raptor]

is castle good?

[smoky bison]

But I think having invisible remove eternal as well is a really cool idea tbh, not often would it come up but I'd definitely take it more if I had a bad eternal out of necessity

[crude bluff]

i like castle

i got it with smeared the other day and it was going off

[placid venture]

invis removing eternal would also help if it hits a bad eternal joker

like uh. Eternal Four Fingers

[oak stream]

castle + smeared + ancient went so hard on my run

[smoky bison]

I think whenever I have a bad eternal I don't take invis for that exact reason, I can't risk losing the joker slot and tbh if it mitigated that risk I'd be more willing to take the risk of taking it

Honestly could even be 3 rounds again I'd still take it more often because I love taking bad eternals lol

[crude bluff]

i got eternal stuntman on plasma and won a 50/50 on 2nd stuntman lol

[rustic cedar]

I can't believe I read through 5+ hours worth of messages to read the discussion of the new update
Anyways, awesome update thunk!

[oak stream]

5 hours???

really?

theres no way it was that long

[smoky bison]

Lol reminds me of my first madness gold stake win, I think second to last shop I got eternal stuntman vs verdant leaf and I just powered through it

[crude bluff]

ngl i like that stuntman got turned into rare

i dont see how that is really a bad change. its same with vagabond. its strong so whatever

[rustic cedar]

Update released 6:42 am here, it's now 11 am
So it's actually closer to 4 hours heh

[crude bluff]

its run defining. like u get stuntman and now u are high card for free

u get vagabond and now u are running with like 0 money for a good while lol

[smoky bison]

Stuntman to rare was probably the only change needed tbh and I'd like to see it tested with the chips revert but honestly it's always going to be insane, I just like seeing it unnerfed lol

[crude bluff]

i think the chip nerf was fair as well cuz it made it more equal to arrowhead

[rustic cedar]

Oh yea running through the discussion on non-retroactive jokers not having perishable
Isn't glass joker supposed to be included in it? Didn't see it in patch notes, it's not retroactive

[crude bluff]

except arrowhead has 0 downside

[smoky bison]

I don't think I can name a run where the nerf made or broke my run but it felt just a little weird seeing it at 250 lol

[crude bluff]

but same chip output if u happen to get a flush without retrigger

[prime remnant]

I have some more updates for you all to test

[sinful tulip]

now we need Obelisk to be uncommon or common, it holds one of the most interesting game mechanics in the game IMO, but it's rare and I see it less than even eternal jokers it seems

[prime remnant]

let me push it live and I'll let you know what is new

[oak stream]

ok

[smoky bison]

stuntman revert confirmed 🎉

[rustic cedar]

Perfect timing, I'm getting out of bed lol

[crude bluff]

i think obelisk to common might be too much

[smoky bison]

just kidding.... unless? 👀

[oak stream]

uncommon def

[crude bluff]

i think its good to keep xmult reserved to uncommon at lowest

[dusty quarry]

Already??

[sinful tulip]

it might need some other changes, I just want to see the game mechanic of avoiding a certain hand type and careful consideration of which hands to preserve to be more common

[smoky bison]

Definitely lol, riff raff strong as is

[crude bluff]

which i can respect for sure

[spiral rapids]

Localthunk is the best

❤️

[smoky bison]

Maybe loyalty card could be common but otherwise probably not

They're all too servicable

[crude bluff]

even that makes it way better

i just feel like rarity goes a long way in making something more reliable lol

[smoky bison]

I mean yeah but as it stands I think it's way below the power level for an uncommon tbh

[teal moth]

wait what more updates?

[spiral rapids]

For certain cards rarity matters a ton, for others it doesn't change how the card feels

[smoky bison]

So I wouldn't hate to see it tried perhaps

[prime remnant]

Okay so changes I need tested:

- reduced way more motion on the 'reduced motion' setting
- - Made some non-retroactive scaling Jokers incompatible with 'Perishable' (Glass Joker, Hologram)
- Fixed bug where debuffed negative Jokers being sold doesn't reduce the number of available joker slots
- Fixed bug where sticker seeding was shared between shop and booster packs```

Just for now can we keep chatter about feedback for the new build?

[crude bluff]

its definitely worth a try

not opposed to it tbh

[smoky bison]

wait debuffed negative cards keep the joker slot

[placid venture]

yes

[prime remnant]

Otherwise head on over to #🎙・server-chat or #🕹・game-discussion

[smoky bison]

Oh yeah sorry

[crude bluff]

if we are on experimental already, will it automatically switch to newest

[placid venture]

selling didn't trigger remove effect for negative

on debuffed jokers

[prime remnant]

You need to download the new update

if you verify game files it should download

[spiral rapids]

I quit and got the update immediately (steam deck)

[smoky bison]

ngl wish that made it to main so I could have messed around with that more lol, see what crazy high scores could be set

[crude bluff]

yeah the update worked for me. i just think it was small and didnt notice it

actually nvm that was the earlier one. im verifying files

[placid venture]

if you still have the slightly older build you can mess with it lma

[prime remnant]

I guess just in general - feedback about any of the changes for 1.0.1e should go here but try to keep the discussion around issues/bugs/feedback and take other discussion to #🎙・server-chat !

It makes is so much easier for me to go through

[placid venture]

nod

[spiral rapids]

Just to confirm the new small update didn't change the version number?

[prime remnant]

correct

[terse gulch]

Cards not jiggling when scored looks so cursed

But it works

[prime remnant]

awesome to hear

[smoky bison]

noted! sorry I got too speculative, thank you for making an amazing game!

[crude bluff]

same lol.

[terse gulch]

RNG fixes are not working

I think rental is still linked with both?

[prime remnant]

oh shit yeah

I'll update

I guess while I'm at it editions should be the same right

[terse gulch]

Yep

Those look like they already work though, considering they take into account the source of the joker

[prime remnant]

right with key_append

mmk cool I thought I would have heard something about that

mmk that change is live

[spiral rapids]

Wow it's kinda crazy how fast the patches go live to people's systems

[prime remnant]

Steam does work

[terse gulch]

Steam is goated

[prime remnant]

honestly fr

[spiral rapids]

You too Local 😉

[terse gulch]

^^^

[prime remnant]

eh

I think I'm going to call it for the night - unless something major pops up

Leave feedback here remember! Thanks for the help yall

[terse gulch]

gn

[placid venture]

gn thunk

[rustic cedar]

Gn thunk!

[cinder forge]

what was the bug with the rate of eternals/perishables? don't remember hearing anything abt one before

[terse gulch]

they were sampled separately which led to perishables not being an exact 30% chance

[rose sand]

so there's gonna be more??

[terse gulch]

that got fixed already

there will be more though because localthunk's hotfix doesn't work

[placid venture]

perishable was significantly more common iirc

[rose sand]

oh, huh

[terse gulch]

I know the issue but I don't think I'm allowed to discuss code here

[terse gulch]

yeah with any eternal-incompatible joker it was like 50% to be perishable

that was fixed now

[cinder forge]

ah thanks for explaining then
didn't realize anything was up with it but that seems like a good fix to have

[tacit tendon]

I did feel off to me that there were so many perishable jokers

[vocal arch]

so with the new (well needed) nerf, bloodstone now feels like a build accent rather than a build definer

which honestly? def more in line with its siblings

[oak stream]

yeah

[crude bluff]

also i won one run of purple stake already. it seemed fine, but i was outscaling the scaling with my build, so hard to say 100% what i think

[brazen perch]

if by in line you mean almost useless, then sure.

[oak stream]

bloodstone isnt useless

its better than 1.0.0

[crude bluff]

didnt feel unfair i guess, but need to play more lol

[brazen perch]

2 jokers for a 7.5x that only works on mult you get from planets or other on play is very useless

[oak stream]

becuase bloodstone proc would make or break a run

[brazen perch]

and its not better than 1.0.0

[oak stream]

now it doesnt

[brazen perch]

the old stone was stronger

in every way

(and was bad, back then)

[crude bluff]

i still think cant underestimate with retrigger

[brazen perch]

If you find retriggers, old stone gets even better

but yah with oops+retriggers you'll win most stakes on the 1.5x stone

[crude bluff]

i did get bloodstone on that purple stake run and i did use it briefly. i definitely noticed a difference, but it didn't feel terrible

[quaint hemlock]

wow rip square

tbf 0 is a square number but 5 💀

actually i'm not sure how bad square joker was it felt very viable for high card builds, but i'm definitely not opposed to the change

[fiery topaz]

I liked using square, I don't think it was that bad

square was good for both hc and pair builds

(also 2 pair and 3oak if you feel like doing that)

[weary garnet]

I hate the change to square joker. Removing a joker's identity for the sake of a slight balance tuning is not at all the direction I want to see this game follow

I cannot overstate how much I oppose this change

[oak stream]

buff to 9 and uncommon

[weary garnet]

The theme & flavor of the jokers is part of the fun appeal and identity of balatro

[oak stream]

its the only way

[weary garnet]

Destroying that in the name of balance is not something I would support

[brazen perch]

I agree with you Pat, i would say it doesnt effect the balance of square all that much. Though he said he's doing this not because of balance.

He said he's doing it because scaling jokers starting at certain chip values was bad for new players or for consistency or some other reason he mentioned

Which is why wee went to 0, as well.

[oak stream]

buff to 6 then

[rose sand]

buff to 9 then

it

[narrow frost]

just change it to penta joker lmao
but yeaahhh... its gonna stick out like a sore thumb because the other cards' flavour is so well done

[rose sand]

is also a square

[brazen perch]

Pentagonal Joker lol

[rose sand]

would require a retranslation though

[oak stream]

ok time to open piskel and make pentagonal

[rose sand]

and also it'd be "exactly 5 cards" which is boring

[oak stream]

0 cards

[brazen perch]

Permanent Physchic lol

it'd be kinda a restriction if you have like ride the bus or something

[dense meteor]

"oh cool stuntmans rarer now so it wont dominate half the runs"

the first joker in the shop on 1.0.1e:

[placid venture]

bumping this

[dense meteor]

parker square joker (someone pls get this joke)

[rose sand]

that'd require it to be a magic square in the first place

[dense meteor]

i feel like if top-up and antimatter are banned on jokerless paint brush should be banned on 5 card draw

[oak stream]

yeah local should get on that

[boreal fractal]

i got the joke

[obtuse forge]

holy shit. genius.

[timber oak]

absolutely agree, felt quite cheaty

[craggy ferry]

yay, static bg instead of blank

"reduced motion" put to the extreme

[stray saddle]

rip bloodstone

[craggy ferry]

stuntman too powerful, nerfed

I would rather see its chip bonus go back to 300 tho

[hushed junco]

I think personally changing ante scaling does not do anything in terms of difficulty

[stray wren]

ante 8 change is not very small

[hushed junco]

Around 95% of my winning runs on purple+ stake I was already scoring enough with 1-2 jokers and glass cards that I could sell some of my jokers and pick up some random ones for stickers

All this change does is prevent getting 1 extra gold sticker, perhaps putting anaglyph negative tag is back in meta

[amber ginkgo]

I don't understand what "sticker seeding was shared" means

[hushed junco]

Where did you read that

[amber ginkgo]

is it something related to consistency of seeded runs?

the last line of the changelog

• Fixed bug where sticker seeding was shared between shop and booster packs

[hushed junco]

Oh yea

So it means RNG seeding

[amber ginkgo]

or it is the same (or one of) the bug described as "bug in the rate at which eternal/perishable Jokers were being generated"

[hushed junco]

When you reroll shop, it generates new jokers, and that moves sticker seeding up, if you "undo" reroll in a seeded run, and open buffon pack, the stickers you saw after reroll will be in the buffoon pack instead

If I understand correctly

[amber ginkgo]

but how to undo? using a tas mod to save & load?

[hushed junco]

No it's more of a seeded runs consistency

It's not something you really notice in a normal run

[amber ginkgo]

ok I get that

[upbeat spindle]

basically the game has like a hidden queue of jokers it shows for rerolls (which is different for each ante), and a different queue for buffoon packs.
but instead of stickers for the jokers being on the jokers already in that queue, stickers are in their own third queue, and just get applied onto the first joker u see, meaning u can get the same joker with/without a sticker on the same seed just by opening a buffoon pack + rerolling in a different order

[hushed junco]

I'd say, increasing ante scaling is ok, because making most scalers never perishable is going to make orange+ much easier

[brazen perch]

Combined with 'fixing' the perishable odds, yes the game is insanely easy now

[hushed junco]

But overall I don't think the change brings anything new to the difficulty

I think if you want to make gold stakes harder, increasing ante base is not the way

[upbeat spindle]

which i think could make routing seeds on higher stakes (mainly black stake i assume for eternal ankh shenanaigains) is a lot more interesting

[brazen perch]

It discriminates against high card but yah IDK what the answer is, probably more pershiable and rentals like before is the best way but it gone undone for a reason so

[upbeat spindle]

"insanely easy" for the players who have been playing for hours and hours

me who can't win blue stake lmao

[brazen perch]

Relative to previous patch / 1.0.0

[hushed junco]

I think 1.0.0 stakes shouldn't even be considered a baseline

I didn't like it at all

[brazen perch]

Hard to figure out what the baseline should be ig in the first place.

[upbeat spindle]

stake that adds 4 blank cards to your deck (no suit, no rank, does nothing)

[brazen perch]

Fair point, still seems off to me. BU did a 15 gold deck gauntlet on the old version, and this ones signifigantly easier

I think the 1.0.1c was about as perfect as you can get, just enough to make gold stake gauntlets viable

by the very best players

[ionic steeple]

personally for me at this point its really hard for me to come up with a good difficulty/balance for gold stake since im already really experienced with the game and we still need to think of the more casual players/less-skilled, like with the todays update gold stake is even easier and it was already easier with exp. build compared to 1.0.0

but do we really need to make it back harder

i guess we do

[brazen perch]

IDK im not malded about it being as easy as it currently. I dont like high card, but that's the only thing i really disagree with. I do think though the previous version was better. I am defintely malded about bloodstone at 1.5 tho.

That is to say, gold stake being a little too easy isn't that big of a problem.

[hushed junco]

That's fair, and I am always trying to bring up that Completionist+ should be doable for casual players, as it means more people get to experience game to it's fullest, without gatekeeping high stakes to the 0.1%. I really think the updated gold stakes now are getting to that point where they are much more accessible, which is good.

[brazen perch]

If he added stakes to the challenges I think that'd be a pretty decent way to give everyone what they want

Because the way the game lays out the progression system with the stakes kind of creates a bit of a ego-death with how difficult the stakes get and its not really good for the game imo.

Especially how it was before

[ionic steeple]

I guess you have a point

after all maybe i am a little too bit of a hardcore player

experienced and skillful players can still come up with their own challenges for the runs like for example full skip or avoiding some things

for the overall health of the game current gold stake seems good

its not as rng as 1.0.0, thunk fixed odds of joker stickers so maybe now people will stop complaining with the amount of them, and scaling jokers are finally usable (or at least easier to use)

also funny how thunk shares my idea of black deck being fine since its intentionally bad and hard deck

[hushed junco]

😭

[upbeat spindle]

yeah decks don't need to be balanced imo cause to me they're just like different gamemodes

[ionic steeple]

your suggestion post is in shambles

[upbeat spindle]

sorta like challenges but less game changing

[lyric blade]

Could add "101%"+ and higher completion with more stakes or through mods if game is not enough for the most hardcore. It's already a lot to get 15 decks to gold regardless of difficulty. Could add stakes difficulty to challenge mode.

[strange bone]

Iirc I remember Thunk saying exactly this somewhere

[ionic steeple]

yeah he literally mentioned it today

with the update here on the chat

they dont need to be equally balanced

and compared

[hushed junco]

Yes but black deck sucks

[craggy ferry]

harder challenges are already nasty on their own
imagine gold stake jokerless

[hushed junco]

I don't want it to be similar to some other deck but at least less unfun 🗿

[craggy ferry]

you need ultimate rng to get a bunch of Justices and Saturns

[hushed junco]

People already did that

On abandoned tho

Which is super consistent for straights

[craggy ferry]

well, it doesn't feel the same as jokerless
since all challenges come with some unique changes to game rules while not giving you any deck abilities

not to mention you have to waste slots for jokers in abandoned

while not having any at all in jokerless

[ionic steeple]

current gold stake jokerless is purple stake lul

i cant imagine doing it on 1.0.0

[craggy ferry]

jokerless is more of "inconsistent straight builds in early/mid game - no joker interference"
while abandoned is more of "consistent straight builds - joker interference"

[ionic steeple]

we need challenge with plasma deck

[craggy ferry]

X4 base blind size

[ionic steeple]

hell yeah

or completing challenge once you beat ante 12

[craggy ferry]

or... nvm

[hushed junco]

#1187936299655647313

🗿

[ionic steeple]

yeah we dropped a little from the main road

man i wish i could try the update

[upbeat spindle]

what happens on jokerless when u get boss that says all cards debuffed until joker sold

[craggy ferry]

X4 base blind size is actually reasonable for a plasma deck challenge, rather than it being a complete bullsht

[ionic steeple]

but im outside for 2 days 😭

[craggy ferry]

v1.0.0 moment

[ionic steeple]

hopefully the update wont be as delayed now

since it was localization issue and its sorted out now

apparently

[brazen perch]

The challenge also filters some amount of tarots naturally and all jokers away from your shop, that a non-challenge doesn't. So even with the 40 card deck its probably WAY harder to beat, very impressive.

[hushed junco]

Eh? Thought thunk said its still wip

[ionic steeple]

wait

ok idk then

i watched bu today

and they mentioned that it was localization

[brazen perch]

it is done

[hushed junco]

Oh I mean smth else

Thunk mentioned something about better feedback system

[ionic steeple]

the whole project?

yeah

[hushed junco]

Which is still wip

[stable tree]

He mentioned it here: #1233586567671709886 message

[hushed junco]

Ok so thoughts on buffing square joker

Seems like it's pretty bad now

16 hands to catch up with the old scoring

🤔

[hollow pumice]

there's no point in getting a square joker if you are not even gonna play 16 hands in total for it

so I dont have a problem with that

when I get square I always get it up to at least 200

50 hands

[hushed junco]

Hmm I guess that's a fair point

[solar vale]

so purple stake violet vessel is now 1.2m?

200k x 6

[placid venture]

1.2m

[solar vale]

yeah i realized i did the math wrong

[hushed junco]

2.4 on plasma

[solar vale]

so 1.2 and 2.4 on plasma

crazy

[hushed junco]

Xmult is a must I guess?

For plasma

Idk if chips could ever

[solar vale]

plasma can do its own thing with chips maybe not

i wonder what bull can do on plasma

[hushed junco]

If you have wee at 1k that's 250k alone

I don't think chips do it on the vessel

Unless you get bp or a wee copy

[frigid hawk]

Ahh ok i get the starting chip nerf for those scaling jokers, thats good

[violet nexus]

holy Bloodstone nerf

[hushed junco]

Deserved

[violet nexus]

has anybody tested it yet and seen how its performance is compared to 1.0.1c?

[violet nexus]

yea LMAO

100%

[frigid hawk]

The cost of 1 in 2

Yeah no real issues from me on this one

[hushed junco]

Someone crunched the numbers and it's slightly better on average now compared to 1.0.0

But obviously way less powerful compared to 1.0.1c

[frigid hawk]

its still gonna be better than 1 in 3, either way

[hushed junco]

Ye

[violet nexus]

humu humu

makes sense

Can't wait to try it out for myself (and by that I mean I can't wait to never see it or Oops All 6s again)

[hushed junco]

Idea:
Since food jokers can't be eternal and scaling jokers can't be perishable, what if the chances for a food joker to be perishable go up to 60%, and chances for scaling joker to be eternal to 60%?
Would that change anything in any way?

So if sticker is incompatible with joker, the sticker is replaced with a compatible one

Alternative idea is to reroll a joker if the sticker is incompatible

But that might mean you see much less scaling jokers

[brazen perch]

Its the opposite

[placid venture]

it's better at 2 procs or less

[hushed junco]

Is it?

[placid venture]

iirc

[brazen perch]

.

this is the graph

[placid venture]

X2 mult or less

weh

[brazen perch]

1.0.1e is only better than 1.0.0n for 1.5x (1 proc)

its less likely to give any other x mult

[hushed junco]

That's the highest potential tho

Not the average

[brazen perch]

This graph represents likelyhood of any given X mult occuring, as you can see it's under the red permanently after a single (1/2) proc. So if you need anything more that 1.5x from bloodstone it's just worse

[ivory sage]

oh, found this update late
back to high card meta :<

[hushed junco]

Eh if im reading it correctly it does not go against what I said tho, it's approximately the same as the old bloodstone on average, obviously the highs are higher for X2 but chances are much lower for that to happen

[solar vale]

also what did i miss here that people are going back to high card

theres nothing in the notes

[ivory sage]

non retro scaling jokers don't get perishable

[hushed junco]

You get X2.25 80% of the times

[ivory sage]

aka green joker is always non perishable

aka high card snoozefest is always viable when given the option

[topaz edge]

this has been irking me for a while, but it seems the game has two Discard count separately, one for the boss and one for the players

[rugged ibex]

You might've seen this bug already, it's not limited to the experimental builds, and you might be thinking of changing the Voucher anyways, but it seems like Illusion's description is misleading and cannot actually give Seals to playing cards in the shop. At least, I can't find references to giving seals in the code, and didn't find any after rerolling a couple hundred times. Here's the bug-report https://discord.com/channels/1116389027176787968/1214601062166822983.

[topaz edge]

and Jokers are programmed to be affected by both

[hushed junco]

Ok but did you see the ante 8 scaling

How is green joker getting that one

[ivory sage]

oh no +11% score that was definitely killing runs before

high card has more margin than that lol

i think the tipping point is somewhere more like 240k base where pure high card would struggle to scale

[hushed junco]

Eh I still think it's not as viable, mostly because you can carry more gold stickers with straights, for example. But I guess on lower stakes than gold it could be the case

[ivory sage]

i still try my damndest to avoid straights if possible
because holy inconsistency

[frigid hawk]

will be on the lookout for bugs

[supple parrot]

Supernova is still able to get perishable, and I understand that you can scale it beforehand. but I still feel like it might belong with the other scaling jokers that cant get the perishable sticker

[unreal moss]

Square is soooo sad

everything else is wonderful with this update, but did square really need to change?

[heavy belfry]

Yeah when i saw guaranteed buffoon packs i was "i hope it doesn't break the jokerless"... I guess it did

[upbeat spindle]

what is supernova again?

[heavy belfry]

Plus mult for how many times hand was played

[heavy belfry]

Yeah... Change was done only to jokers that just increase number on them themselves so jokers like fortune teller and supernova are not in the list

[upbeat spindle]

that's like, i wouldn't even consider it a scaling joker, retroactive or not

it's just a plus mult joker

u only really take it after you've played the same hand 30 odd times

[elder falcon]

stuntman....my boy. You deserve the rare but it still hurts

good changes overall! Thunk stays cookin

[hushed junco]

that is fully intended

stuntman might need to get the 300 chips back

as a rare

[elder falcon]

i say we split the difference at 275

thunk? thoughts?

[hushed junco]

too weird of a number 😭

300 is a nice round number

[primal delta]

i still want my boy loyalty card to get a buff… so unreliable

[hushed junco]

true

I dont think I ever had a run where I fully relied on loyalty and won because of it

[primal delta]

like you have to waste money(hands) to predict it going off

its just so bad

make it like every 4 shops the 5th becomes free

[hushed junco]

I know the intention is you play 2 hands on small and big blind each, and it only actives on the boss blind, but whenever I tried doing that, I needed to play 1 extra high card to draw my straight, and that fucks it up

[primal delta]

Like an actual loyalty card

[strange bone]

I do think having more tag-generating jokers would be nice

[hushed junco]

for sure

skip tags are pretty fun

but I'd like it more as a part of a DLC/update rather than replacing any of the current jokers with such mechanic

[primal delta]

i see it as if your strat revolves around loyalty card, you’re gonna die the next ante as you dont have a x4. Its fundamentally flawed as you have to predict you’re going to die to use it when you want to by playing hands

[hushed junco]

eh not rly, depends on what you're playing. it helps against the wall, or any other boss that can screw you if you have play more than 1 hand

but overall it's not very reliable

https://discord.com/channels/1116389027176787968/1228034095024574475 interesting reaction on this suggestion ngl

bloodstone abusers all in one thread 😭

[elder falcon]

okay fine 420 is my final offer take it or leave it

[hushed junco]

ok next patch stuntman gives 69 mult and 420 chips

[elder falcon]

heck yea

[rose sand]

-3 hand size

[hushed junco]

-7 hand size

you can only play the one

[elder falcon]

okay hear me out. Double handsize 100 chips

[hollow briar]

always sets hand size to 1

that way you can ectoplasm ankh with eternal to your dreams and still be fine

[solar vale]

300 needs to come back

like it being 250 for an uncommon which is somewhat easy to find makes sense

250 for rare is weak

[hollow briar]

I kinda agree

that or -1 hand size but Imo +300 makes more sense

[elder falcon]

I feel like the speed runs showed how OP it was at 300 though, specifically on plasma. It basically one shots the first 3-4 antes with high card.

So it needed to be brought down a bit as an uncommon but now that its rare changing it back to 300 would be good

[terse gulch]

Drspectred said it should go to 300 too

And as a rare that’s better tbh

[placid venture]

Jokers shouldn't be balanced over one specific deck imho

[terse gulch]

Stuntman being doubly busted on Plasma is fine imo

[solar vale]

speedruns were looking for that though

they were searching for seeds with stuntman and nothing else

[elder falcon]

yea i wasnt saying to balance it based on one deck

[placid venture]

though the reasoning for this from thunk is that High Card/Pair is too good with Stuntman

­

[dusty quarry]

plasma ain't supposed to be balanced

[elder falcon]

the scoring says otherwise

BALANCED

[dusty quarry]

so trying to do any balancing around it specifically is kinda

[dusty quarry]

it hits it home

[terse gulch]

Things being broken sometimes is part of the design at this point

They just can’t be too broken

Where it isn’t fun

[dusty quarry]

it's like the serious gun in gungeon actually being a silly class gun

[solar vale]

plasma is the most balanced deck, literally

[elder falcon]

i like the bloodstone nerf

x2 on 1 in 2 was too much

[dusty quarry]

plasma is fun and doesn't jus trivialise the game but it's definitely the strongest deck

and i think that's ifn e

[terse gulch]

The x1.5 is still good for consistency but now makes you want to search more for all 6s or retriggers

Which puts it similar to the old design

[elder falcon]

i honest thought it was fine where it was pre-experimental was already pretty strong with retriggers imo

but this is a good middleground if its staying at 1 in 2

[solar vale]

i know it wouldnt make sense thematically but what if bloodstone was rare

[terse gulch]

This might be just a hot take but I feel like in the current meta Arrowhead is stronger than Stuntman
I see the argument about pivoting to high card/pair versus spade flush, but I’ve still been able to force wins really easily when Arrowhead appears

[solar vale]

then hard to find but op

[terse gulch]

Or at least, it’s definitely stronger than Rough Gem and Onyx Agate

I don’t think I’ve ever wanted to take Onyx Agate

[solar vale]

onyx agate is which suit?

[terse gulch]

Clubs +Mult

[solar vale]

i mean its nice early game

sometimes a +mult is better than x mult

[terse gulch]

I mean it has the same power as Fibonacci so it’s probably just a hot take from me

[solar vale]

i mean fibo is harder to proc

[elder falcon]

true, i get why people go stuntman though because they dont have to worry about the boss debuff.

[solar vale]

a flush with discards is basically guaranteed

plop some suit changers and its 100%

[terse gulch]

If you have an all-around good build then playing a backup flush might make Goad survivable

[elder falcon]

yea would only be bad if youre relying on it solely for your chips but a high enough flush level should still save

arrowhead though at 50 feels kind of high. Dont think it needs a nerf but I wouldnt be surprised if it got dropped to 40.

[terse gulch]

To me it feels in that same state of a little too busted as pre-patch stuntman

[elder falcon]

because if 300 was too much for uncommon stuntman, and then 250 was too much and had to make it rare. Then arrow at 50 or 250 for flush is probably alot for uncommon as well

[hushed junco]

Arrowhead is strong, but stuntman's benefit is not relying on cards scoring

[dusty quarry]

this

[hushed junco]

arrowhead does have more support with retriggers, so yeah

[dusty quarry]

instant payoff

it's why stuff like half joker and abstract are pretty good too

[terse gulch]

I’ve heard a lot of arguments from the other side which is why I feel like it’s more of a personal thing

Because pivoting into “play whatever” is much easier

I just had a few good arrowhead runs recently

[hushed junco]

I had a few good arrowhead runs end on the spades debuffed boss 😭

stuntman definitely feels like it needs 300 back

Idk if arrowhead needs slight nerf

to be in line with other uncommons

[placid venture]

arrowhead should be like +30 or +40

[hushed junco]

45 or 40 I thought

[placid venture]

because every time i've taken it it always pop off

regardless of retrigger

[hushed junco]

because of how slow flushes scaling is, yeah

it is VERY good for flushes

[strange bone]

I don't think Arrowhead needs a nerf. Its definitely on the same ballpark as Bloodstone and the clubs one

[hushed junco]

but onyx agate got slight nerf

I don't think anyone though it's too strong?

I'd say for whatever reason onyx agate got nerfed, arrowhead could get slightly nerfed too

[elder falcon]

yea i was thinking arrowhead at 40 for an uncommon would make sense

[hushed junco]

maybe because of the steel cards

[solar vale]

if stuntman is at 300 i think 250 for arrowhead is fine

worse than stuntman in both chip count and ease of use

[hushed junco]

arrowhead does not have -hand size and can be retriggered, so Idk

[solar vale]

yeah but you can play high card with stuntman

you can use it much more easily

[regal obsidian]

was discussing the patch in another discord, gonna copy over my takes from there

my hot takes:

• square joker got a huge unnecessary nerf (need to play 16 hands for it to catch up) AND the flavour on it is ruined
• vampire being uncommon makes no sense, it's run-defining (no enhancements in favour of xMult) and i think the better change is to have it at +x0.2 but be rare
• bloodstone nerf is lame af, i think bloodstone should just be rare instead of trying to balance it as an uncommon (even if it doesn't line up with the other gem jokers that way)

other scaling changes are fine, stuntman being rare makes sense as the way to nerf that because it is run-defining, high stake ante scaling is fine

[hushed junco]

For square, 16 hands is just 4 rounds, and from there it's scaling faster

Vampire is probably too good at x0.2, but it is another option yeah

at uncommon it makes sense because it's more in line with stuff like constellation

[regal obsidian]

sorry if my messages came off harsh btw, just a little bummed because i was happy with basically every change in 101c and now 101e just feels slightly off

[regal obsidian]

to me it's different to constellation because you don't have the ability to play any enhanced cards, and glass is a huge factor in late game usually

[hushed junco]

I guess you could look at it the way that you give up all future glass cards and such for vampire, so it's a big commitment, tho I don't think all rares fall under such category

so it's more of a personal take, rather than some sort of consistency, Idk

[paper peak]

bloodstone is still very good at 1.5x It almost carried me alone through a gold stake.

[hushed junco]

I think obelisk is sort of under such category, but its much harder to scale, and it gives X0.2 per hand

so vampire at X0.2 would likely overshadow obelisk

[placid venture]

not being able to play enhanced cards is a fair drawback for enhancements/tarots being a lot more common than planets

[elder falcon]

bloodstone was over powered at 2x and 1 in 2. 1.5x makes more sense

[hushed junco]

eh enhancements are less common than planets, unless you consider enhancements from standard packs, which are not guaranteed

[regal obsidian]

that's fair, again i don't know if it's the wrong decision but i am bummed about it

especially for how it affects endless runs

[hushed junco]

at X2 it was too good

[regal obsidian]

but i guess the incentive is just to go idol for those instead now

i think x2 as a rare would have worked, but i get not wanting to split the gem jokers

[strange bone]

As one of square joker's biggest fans, it is definitely not a nerf, it's a insane buff

[placid venture]

like there are more consitent tarot gens than planet gens

[hushed junco]

it still overshadows the Ancient at X2 because all you need is a dice

[strange bone]

Square Joker never was a joker that got you through ante 1/2 like you can with green joker. The benefits of its scaling only came through lategame

Scaling 25% faster is insane and makes it genuinely crazy

[gritty mortar]

the flavour still got ruined which is a shame

[regal obsidian]

yeah that's probably why i'm so negative about that one

i loved the fib price increase in 101c

[hushed junco]

I dont think I ever considered the flavor of the square joker until the patchnotes

[placid venture]

flavor L was to make up for -16 starting chips

[regal obsidian]

but yeah i guess the fact that i never really considered square outside of plasma is a sign that the scaling wasn't good enough

[rugged ibex]

square is good on any deck though

[regal obsidian]

i just don't know if i'm gonna want to invest into it when it starts at 0 now

but maybe that's a skill issue on my part

[placid venture]

and here's thunk's take for reducing starting chips