1.0.1e

[prime remnant]

🧵

[urban musk]

fantastic

balatro university predicted it again

[oak stream]

ok bloodstone nerf

expected

stuntman nooo

square change is great altho no more square numbers

(ig 0 is still square)

[urban musk]

square joker should sqaure your score obviously

[prime remnant]

I know +5 was a hard sell but I think it's a better card this way

[oak stream]

fair

[prime remnant]

+4 is just so nice

[oak stream]

i felt it was weird having some joker start off at random values

also runner buff :D

vampire buff

expected, but only rarity so its still fair

is blank banned from jokerless

[prime remnant]

[oak stream]

dang

[urban musk]

wise and auspicious

[prime remnant]

I mean it says it does nothing

[terse gulch]

all the speedrunners will be crying at stuntman nerf, but it makes sense

[prime remnant]

I have no idea why it was ever uncommon

[oak stream]

stuntman is really getting nerfed to the ground (50 chips isnt a lot tho ig)

[terse gulch]

moreso the spawn rate lowering

[graceful dragon]

I love you thunk, but some of these changes definitely hurt

[oak stream]

yeah that too

[urban musk]

they hurt me personally

[oak stream]

bloodstone nerf makes sense

[urban musk]

how could you do this to me, personally

[oak stream]

i dont know how x2 mult every card with just 2 uncommons could ever work

[graceful dragon]

By the way boss, what are the chances of being able to play previous versions from the betas tab in Steam? you know, like Rimworld or other games do

[prime remnant]

I think I like 1/2 way more than 1/3 but that meant X2 was overtuned

[warm lichen]

Interesting to compare Bloodstone and Ancient now

[oak stream]

since antimatter is banned on jokerless should paintbrush be banned on 5-card draw

[dawn loom]

Yoooo based bloodstone nerf

[prime remnant]

Oh good point

[graceful dragon]

Honestly I enjoyed bloodstone with the 2x

[dawn loom]

It was fucking broken 💀

[graceful dragon]

that's what made it so enjoyable

like on isaac runs

[oak stream]

balance is a thing

[graceful dragon]

when you feel like you've scored gold

[oak stream]

and even still you have idol

[oak stream]

its an uncommon

[prime remnant]

That card in particular wasn't meant to be that strong

[urban musk]

that card only exists to stop balatro university from getting away with it

[prime remnant]

I'm all for broken things but that was not ideal for the overall game experience

[graceful dragon]

alright, fair enough boss

[urban musk]

although he ended up getting away with it anyway

[dawn loom]

Me when oops all sixes + blueprint + brainstorm + bloodstone (this is clearly fair and balanced)

[terse gulch]

If Stuntman is nerfed will Arrowhead be nerfed?

[oak stream]

+40

[terse gulch]

ah

localthunk thought ahead

[oak stream]

thats a reasonable change

[oak stream]

no it hasnt been changed

[terse gulch]

oh

xd

[oak stream]

just an idea

[urban musk]

he thunked in a local fashion

[prime remnant]

stuntman is way better because you can no brain it

arrowhead requires you to score the correct cards still

[oak stream]

fair

[prime remnant]

so I think it's uncommon strength

[oak stream]

the stuntman + nova + card sharp was my favourite thing to pull off

[graceful dragon]

Sorry I don't mean to be reiterative but what do you think about this, localthunk?

[prime granite]

yeah 5 spades needed

[graceful dragon]

could this be a possibility some day?=

[terse gulch]

I would argue that Arrowhead gives you the control to discard for the +250 chip bonus along with a stronger base hand, whereas Stuntman restricts you much more unless you're in a specific, less common build

but I do see your point

[prime remnant]

Probably unlikely at this point - the extra overhead right now is not worth the squeeze when I think these updates are meant for improving the base quality of the game, not just random changes

[graceful dragon]

Alright, understood, thank you very much for your time! I would also like to personally thank you for making this game, it has given me and my wife countless hours of fun so far!!

[prime remnant]

I think the high card/pair runs in particular really throw off the power level of stuntman

[graceful dragon]

Looking forward to the future, it sure looks bright

[prime remnant]

Thank you! Glad you're enjoying

Can people verify the game runs alright and you can select other languages?

[terse gulch]

that's true, and Stuntman is a really strong pivot for "play whatever" or high card/pair runs

[prime remnant]

And it has the correct version number in game

[prime remnant]

Thank you!

[sage pond]

how long to update normal version of game to 1.0.1?

[prime remnant]

Not much longer now - we have the localization done so pretty much after these changes have been tested

[graceful dragon]

Looks good to me

[sage pond]

ok thanks for info 🙂

[hollow briar]

Local is the next update going to be bugs after this? I feel bad for people having problems and sometimes not getting to play the game

[terse gulch]

let me do a run with the new changes and see how it goes

[ionic steeple]

version is indeed 1.0.1e-FULL

[prime remnant]

Have things gotten worse?

[ionic steeple]

also this, i feel bad for people losing save files, 20 reports everyday about razer cortex font and softlocking on packs

[hollow briar]

Ive seen multiple reports of people having black screens on start

[boreal fractal]

Rip bloodstone 😔

[terse gulch]

tried a random language and found a mistake quickly (not sure if those were updated)

anyway time to do a random gold stake run in Dutch

[prime remnant]

Which one?

[terse gulch]

wait I think it's German because Deutsch

[prime remnant]

What is the problem?

[surreal fulcrum]

Mexican Spanish: Should be "1 en 2" not "in"

[urban musk]

how could you do this to the mexicans

[terse gulch]

Matador, formatting of dollar value in Deutsch

persists across several jokers actually

[iron island]

LET'S GO NO MORE PERISHABLE CONSTELLATION

[prime remnant]

Oh I think that's the style for German

French does something similar

I'd need a German speaker to verify

[terse gulch]

ah, then Bootstraps is the inconsistent one

[iron island]

Something I've noticed is that if I can make straights, I'm going to go for them every time because of Saturn (especially at gold stake), I'm wondering if saturn should be nerfed to +20 chips? The plus 30 makes it so so much better than any other planet and makes straights almost TOO viable.

[terse gulch]

Same language - Erosion always says below 3 cards

[iron island]

other than I guess the "secret" planets

[surreal fulcrum]

Español (México): the comma is separated from the word "grande".

[terse gulch]

some poker hands appear to be unchanged - again, not sure if it's a German thing or a bug

[prime remnant]

German thing

[terse gulch]

Kinda across the board I also don't like some of the line spacing (example: Obelisk, Dutch)

and this hasn't been changed 🫠

[prime remnant]

I guess right now I'm mainly looking for crashes and mistranslations for the new content

We have a new localization plan we are working on that should be way better for incorporating user feedback, it's not quite ready yet

I can't share much about it but it'll fix issues like that when it's ready

[final tiger]

nooo not stuntman (seriously though, it's deserved)

good changes all round

[surreal fulcrum]

Español (México): The description containing the "(s)" is not cohesive with the other descriptions.

Should be "Mejora 2 cartas seleccionadas a Carta de la suerte"

[hollow briar]

So far I agree with all the changes

[ionic steeple]

so perishable is back at 30%?

or was it rental

[final tiger]

what was it before?

[ionic steeple]

35% i think due to bug

[prime remnant]

it's all what it should have been now

[ionic steeple]

nice

[final tiger]

ah interesting

[ionic steeple]

also F jokerless joker tech

[final tiger]

yeah rip

thought it would stay in as a meme

[prime remnant]

Has anyone farmed Reddit karma yet with the patchnotes?

[hushed junco]

Banger update

[prime remnant]

free internet points

[hushed junco]

wait, no more antimatter in jokerless

[final tiger]

square joker increasing to +5 is a bit funny...I thought +4 was part of the theme

[hushed junco]

😭

[surreal fulcrum]

Español (México): Black stake doesn't have the description for Eternal Jokers on selection screen.

[prime remnant]

the +5 hurts my soul a bit but I think it's good for balance

[final tiger]

should have made it +16 😎

[prime remnant]

wait how

[surreal fulcrum]

Idk

[prime remnant]

one sec I'm just checking again

Ah I see

[sour sleet]

so like, genuinely, why were green/purple stake made harder?

[ionic steeple]

justified with the experimental build changes

since winning on exp build is easier

[prime remnant]

The buffs from the previous experimental patch swung the balance a bit further in the easy direction than anticipated so I am trying to hone in to the intended difficulty

[lyric spindle]

The Bloodstone update is funny because my friend that consistently used Oa6s + Bloodstone is in shambles

[ionic steeple]

i mean its still damn good with dice

but yeah, now you need dice

[lyric spindle]

Am thankful that the nonretro scaling jokers can't be perishable (Most of those I need gold stickers on still so it would be nice to see them used more in my runs)

[ionic steeple]

glad that vampire got 1 of the 3 nerfs reverted

also, did all of the non-retro scaling jokers got anti-perishable shield?

[prime remnant]

I think all of them did yes

[ionic steeple]

thats good

[prime remnant]

I was toying with making their rental chance higher to balance

but that's a bit confusing

[ionic steeple]

sounds unnecessary

but maybe, who knows

[rose rose]

Are Temperance, Wheel of Fortune, Hex, etc still in Jokerless?

[ionic steeple]

already like half of the scaling jokers require you to spam hands so economy with them is worse

[ionic steeple]

if not mentioned in patch, then i guess they still are there

im gonna be real, removing all joker related things in jokerless would make it too easy

imo

[indigo pendant]

Too easy is a stretch. Easier sure, but I dont think whiffing randomly is what makes the challenge hard

[topaz quest]

new Russian localization edits are somehow even worse than they were in the 1.0.0n. There's a Proper Russian localization mod, supporting both release and experimental build, please check it out. I've trying to reach you or Playstack about it many times, but never got any response.
https://discord.com/channels/1116389027176787968/1217140107962748949

[ionic steeple]

It's the final, last challenge with theme that blatantly goes against the whole concept of the game - jokers

its meant to be hard

[indigo pendant]

Yes, and removing things like Hex is not going to make the challenge easy though

0.6% of players have completed it after all.

[ionic steeple]

and maybe its just my experience with the game, but jokerless is not that brutal, glass and death are op

[sour sleet]

Any idea of just changing bloodstkne to rare?

[gritty mortar]

that seems like a huge NO, given how it's one of a quartet of uncommons

[sour sleet]

So?

[gritty mortar]

onyx agate, rough gem, and arrowhead are the other 3

[ionic steeple]

no, since its unlock for 30 of x suit with 3 other uncommon jokers

[prime remnant]

We are working on a new system to properly incorporate player feedback for the localizations but it's taking some time - once it is ready then all those issues should be much easier to address

[bright helm]

I need to get in a run still, but on paper it seems like Square Joker still scales too slowly compared to other chip-based jokers. Especially because it now takes a minimum of 4 rounds to catch up to where you would be with the last patch.

[sour sleet]

I get why its uncommon, but it was also just above and beyond better than the others

[ionic steeple]

so now it got tuned

seems good

[gritty mortar]

so it got hit by nerf bat

[tropic knoll]

ehh there are quite a few very strong uncommons

[hybrid onyx]

bloodstone was insanely OP, even for a rare it would be too OP

[prime remnant]

1/2 at X2 was just far too good

[tropic knoll]

not necessarily bad although there could be a few more rares

[tropic knoll]

why trib when u can just high roll 🤣

[prime remnant]

I prefer 1/2 at X1.5 instead of 1/3 at X2 (what it is in 1.0.0n)

And uncommon power level is the target for it

[ionic steeple]

1/3 makes it awkward with dice

[final tiger]

yeah agreed

[ionic steeple]

i like the 1/2 for 1.5x

[gritty mortar]

same

[sour sleet]

Nah i def thought it was basically a free win with any retriggers or oops all 6a

[hybrid onyx]

hopefully it isn't just way underpowered now. it'll probably still be pretty good

[sour sleet]

Kinda sad wild cards still havent seen a change :(

[hybrid onyx]

just doesnt carry on its own anymore

[terse gulch]

trying reduced motion now

[hybrid onyx]

yeah...

[terse gulch]

the mult, hand level, and cards jiggle but not the hand name and chips

[surreal fulcrum]

Me too 😦

[terse gulch]

it's like only half the scoreboard has reduced motion applied

[final tiger]

I did an orange stake run with bloodstone right before this patch came out and yeah it was very easy

[indigo pendant]

I was wondering, is mathematically bloodstone now weaker than on live? Mult benefits were slashed in half but chance to trigger increased by 50%. It is more consistent though

[final tiger]

must be a little bit better

0.75x vs 0.666x

right?

[tropic knoll]

do u need to account for the full distribution

[final tiger]

ah yeah that was just one trigger

[tropic knoll]

since they multiply

i think so

[final tiger]

well each of those triggers is more likely

[ionic steeple]

it is a little better on 1/2 for 1.5x i think

but im bad at math

[brazen perch]

You never see pershiables anymore, and high card meta is like super back in swing. Dunno gold stake got way too easy now i think. Wish all the perishables changes were reverted

[tropic knoll]

at 50% bloodstone
3.125% for 5 or 0 triggers,
15.625% for 1 or 4 triggers
31.25% for 2 or 4 triggers

multiply them by the scoring of each trigger

to find expect value

[honest niche]

yeah that perishable change makes orange and gold way easier

[tropic knoll]

i am too lazy

[iron galleon]

Same for Korean, no offense at all but I genuinely doubt that the translators are real Koreans seeing some translations

[stone rapids]

hallo everyone

[iron galleon]

Rental is basically saying you get dollars per round

[final tiger]

I think on a 5 card hand it's 3.333 vs 3.75

[gritty mortar]

technically this is true
because rental jokers make you get -3 dollars per round

[brazen perch]

I saw like 1/8 or so jokers were perishable, and the common scalers are not less common because they're perishable immune

the tag basically doesn't exist

[tropic knoll]

at 1/3 bloodstone:
13.169% for 0 triggers
32.922% for 1, 2 triggers
16.461% for 3 triggers
4.115% for 4 triggers
0.4115% for 5 triggers

at 1/2 bloodstone
3.125% for 5 or 0 triggers,
15.625% for 1 or 4 triggers
31.25% for 2 or 4 triggers

[ionic steeple]

odds for perishable were also fixed since they were 35% instead of intended 30% (i think)

[onyx summit]

I'm not sure why square was buffed

[honest niche]

i think 1/2 bloodstone is slightly worse but much more consistent

[tropic knoll]

not rly buff

16 hands to catch up is usually nerf

[ionic steeple]

its only buff after 16 hands, so sidegrade i guess

[honest niche]

16 hands is ez with square

[low cradle]

i mean square joker isnt supposed to carry your first 16 hands anyway

for all intents and purposes its a buff

[onyx summit]

Ok I guess it makes it more extreme

[low cradle]

maybe not a massive one

[final tiger]

yeah true, same with others like runner

[prime granite]

runner catches up fast tho

[brazen perch]

its like playing on 1.0.0

but without the handsize reduction

[indigo pendant]

I'll calculate the expected values real quick

[tropic knoll]

calc sd if u can too

i forgor how to

[final tiger]

yeah if I'm not wrong it's equal on four straights

[tropic knoll]

but it should be possible

[prime granite]

correct

[onyx summit]

I think stuntman to rare is good at least

[brazen perch]

i bet it's something like a 2.7x on average. Before mult jokers*. It's very weak you dont bother with it unless you're already leveling flushes by happenstance.

[final tiger]

I think I would have preferred it vampire stayed rare but went back to 0.2x

[onyx summit]

I think they want the number of rares to be the same

[prime remnant]

nah

[onyx summit]

Guess not then

[prime remnant]

Stuntman should have always been rare

[carmine fable]

Do unlocks of jokers in the experimental build count? Meaning, after the build leaves beta, will I still have any jokers unlocked on experimental in the main game?

[honest niche]

a bit surprised hit the road didnt get a change, i almost never pick it up

[final tiger]

yeah it needed one of the two anyway

[terse gulch]

my money manipulation this round was crazy

reduced motion half-working is still so jarring

[final tiger]

having it only trigger with played cards was a good change

[brazen perch]

Your save tranfers, you can test it by switching back to the main build

[final tiger]

stuntman being rare hurts me but it's justified

[final tiger]

suppose it's good if you're able to manipulate your deck into jacks...but who does that?

[terse gulch]

in one round I got canio and in the next took it from to X1 to X5

[indigo pendant]

I did the math real quick:

Expected value mult for bloodstone on live (5 heart hand): 2,89X

Expected value mult for bloodstone on the current beta (5 heart hand): 3,02X

So a slight buff, plus more consistency overall 👍

[brazen perch]

Bloodstone was trash before

[onyx summit]

It does remove a lot of the swing for bloodstone

[final tiger]

what if you had one retrigger, like with seltzer?

[honest niche]

i usually go out of my way to remove jacks, face cards are too unreliable

[brazen perch]

The consistency does help though

[final tiger]

yeah same

[indigo pendant]

Should in theory be similiar, aka 2,89^2 VS 3,02^2

[final tiger]

ah ok was wondering if it would go up or down, thought it would go up tbh since the consistency helps

oh if you've squared it then it definitely does

[tacit tendon]

Another ante scaling change...

Actually I think it's fine

[prime remnant]

If it's bad I'll change it!

[sour sleet]

Its kinda funny comparing ancient joker to bloodstone now though

[prime remnant]

I want the game to be fun, trying to find the numbers that maximize that for the most people

[final tiger]

I think higher score is fine if the game has become more fair

[tacit tendon]

Also scaling jokers not being perishable is awesome

[final tiger]

yeah it definitely feels like it at least

[honest niche]

yeah just that change offsets the ante change

[sour sleet]

What was the bug for eternal/perishable jokers

[topaz edge]

as some one who lost so many run on Bloodstone's RNG, meh

[indigo pendant]

Out of curiosity, do you think Lovers would be too strong if it targeted 2 cards? Would really help jokers like Ancient

[final tiger]

slightly worried we'll end up just always picking them now

but it sounds fine at least

[indigo pendant]

Right now Lovers is imo def one of the overall weakest tarots, or at least most situational

[sour sleet]

Same. It being weak against a lot of bosses, single target, and take up a valuable enhancement js just a bad combo

[topaz edge]

eh, the thing with Lover is that it's an enhancement, so you lose access to so many suit-based buff that relies on scoring

would be best if suit-dependent Jokers just target the original suit instead

[indigo pendant]

Exactly. Its already a tradeoff, so only targeting a single card feels weak to me

[upper bison]

would i always pick lovers if it was 2 instead of one? unless im playing flush, no

[topaz edge]

well here's the ultimate question

would 3-cards suit change be too strong, OR 1-2 card changes on other Tarot be too weak

[sour sleet]

Im more likely to use it instead of skipping packs after opened

[topaz edge]

after all the main reason people can't get out of Flush is because of 3 cards change lol

[ocean forge]

i still feel like lovers should be 2 cards rather than 1, regardless of flushes

[indigo pendant]

Flushes are already getting a small nerf with the common suiters being weakend. Honestly I think people just like flushes because its easy to play

[final tiger]

yeah lovers is good for stuff like idol and ancient but I'd say the biggest downside isn't even the boss debuffs but the fact they can't be enhanced twice

[ocean forge]

^ ancient and things like flowerpot is why i want lovers buff lmao

[prime granite]

true! those are nice setups

[sour sleet]

Still need a sticker on flowerpot

[topaz edge]

Seeing Double is the only other Joker that's debuffed by wildcards lol

[final tiger]

which ones were weakened?

[ocean forge]

seeing double is debuffed by wild cards? thats fucked

i thought lovers helped seeing doubl

[final tiger]

flushes are good for beginners

I mean its good they exist for that reason

[ocean forge]

i want lovers buffed so the variable-suit jokers are buffed, not flushes

[indigo pendant]

Sinful jokers like greedy, +3 mult intead of +4

[final tiger]

lets you get used to the game, as long as you get out of the trap

[brazen perch]

Seeing double works with wild cards

[night rock]

Oh btw, do eternal/perishable/rental icons go under Hologram still?

[topaz edge]

not with wild Club, already tested

[ocean forge]

does blackboard work with wild cards? like if all the cards in ur hand r wild

[indigo pendant]

Yes

[brazen perch]

a wild card doesnt count for multiple cards, if thats the question.

[indigo pendant]

Blackboard just checks if your suits are black, not if you have no red suits

[topaz edge]

strangely enough, Blackboard works if you have 0 cards in hand

[final tiger]

oh yeah, I forgot all about that one

[ocean forge]

we call the suit jokers "sinful jokers", whats the colloquialism for the adjective jokers, the common chips and +mult if your hand contains poker hand jokers

[indigo pendant]

The filler jokers lmao

[ocean forge]

truuuuuue

[prime remnant]

I call them page 1 jokers

since they are all so default

(and thus on page 1)

[ocean forge]

oh true, all the page 1 jokers r rly default

[indigo pendant]

Wydm, jimbo is the most complex joker in the game

[tropic knoll]

i think u did somethinng wrong unless i am triping

or mis type

first one is 1/2 probability with 2x, second one is 1/2 probability with 1.5x (new), third is 1/3 probability with 2x

expected value for 1/3 with 2x is quite a bit higher

[ocean forge]

i noticed the other day that the +mult jokers all have synoynms for like, silly or insane, while the chips jokers have synoynms for like, mischievous or cunning

[indigo pendant]

Let me redo the 1/3 math

[prime remnant]

'expected value' is misleading here

[tropic knoll]

yeah i am trying to find standard deviation but i forgor hohw to

💀

[prime remnant]

you should be looking at 50th percentile not the average

[ocean forge]

bloodstone def now probably more in line with the other gem jokers

[lyric spindle]

Is there a reason why the game says 6 when my handsize is 7 lol

[hoary path]

More awesome changes. Stuntman is getting depressed but I still love these changes

[ocean forge]

while still having dice + bloodstone strong

[prime remnant]

6 were drawn face down at some point during the round

[terse gulch]

nerf arrowhead

[prime remnant]

and discarded potentially, so you wouldn't have that information

[lyric spindle]

Ah I did play one face down card nvm thank you

[ocean forge]

the scaling jokers change is nice QoL

[hoary path]

Base game is looking pretty good, but I gotta ask about a few jokers

[lyric spindle]

Trying out a square joker run and it's pretty solid atm

[hoary path]

Some jokers I just never use. Glass joker seems like a consolation joker. I halfway feel like it should scale based on scored glass cards NOT breaking

[ocean forge]

having to play 16 hands for square to be stronger than its old version hurts a little, but w/e

[terse gulch]

even better hand (probably a new PB for me)

[honest niche]

i like glass joker but its very specific

[tropic knoll]

does standard distribution even matter in bloodstone cuz its not normally distributed

what are other way to show the distribution

[hoary path]

I feel like it would do well, but glass cards are preferable not to break, and glass joker being the 'insurance' joker seems counterintuitive.

But then again, that may be my 'high score junkie' brain talking rather than my 'high stake junkie' brain.

[ocean forge]

you only have to play 4 straights for runner to be >= than its old version

[topaz edge]

maybe make Glass Joker retroactive?

[hoary path]

^ that was my first thought

That may be too crazy though

[topaz edge]

don't think it'd be that broken

[hoary path]

Steel joker and stone joker require having the enhanced cards in the deck to scale

[topaz edge]

you get only 1 Glass per Tarot, unless Death + Standard pack

and it has to break to begin with

[hoary path]

I suppose losing glass cards hurts enough as it is, so an insanely high joker for your troubles if you find it wouldn't be THAT overpowered.

[ocean forge]

i STILL havent discovered glass joker

[hoary path]

I've never really USED glass joker, I don't feel incentivized to make it work

[topaz edge]

my thought, exactly

[dusty quarry]

Ok but isn't bloodstone now actively worse than pre patch because the expected xmult is considerably worse why has no one mentioned this yet

[topaz edge]

I already lost many runs with the x2 Bloodstone already

[ocean forge]

same

[topaz edge]

people just want it nerfed because they have won so many time

[dusty quarry]

Median expectation is 2.7, whereas 1.00 was 3.1

[placid venture]

is stuntman still 250 chips?

[prime granite]

yes

[dusty quarry]

And the actual mean is way lower

[prime granite]

oh oops

[placid venture]

damn, rip king

[ocean forge]

o7 bloodstone

[placid venture]

thabk you for reading 🙏

[honest niche]

yeah bloodstone was broken asf

[hoary path]

My biggest question atm is when will Thunk finally start pulling stuff from #1155557846805643434 for the first content update :o

[honest niche]

needed a big nerf

[prime granite]

how the mighty have fallen

[dusty quarry]

You've entirely misunderstood what I'm asking

As in, its median payoff is now lower than what it was before the experimental patch

[bright helm]

1/2 chance to be 1.5x is expected value of 1.25x per heart
1/3 chance to be 2x is expected value of 1.33x per heart
its only a small nerf, but makes up for it by being less swingy

[ocean forge]

is localthunk actually gonna pull stuff from suggestions for a content update? i thought it was just a for fun thing

[dusty quarry]

That's not how that works

[honest niche]

lots of people were talking about it earlier

[dusty quarry]

Take the power

[honest niche]

scroll up

[dusty quarry]

Oh my bad I'm blind

[hoary path]

considering all the tags for things? It sounds like thunk wants some content ideas. At least I think so.

There's some truly sicko mode ideas in there

Lenticular edition

[ocean forge]

i wish there was a way to sort by emojis bc i dont wanna see random ideas

[brazen perch]

This is the correct math for 'what X mult does the bloodstone act as on average'

[lyric spindle]

First Gold Stake win on new beta ft. Popcorn + Square Joker Gold Sticker

[tropic knoll]

i am trying to find how to show the distribution but idk

[brazen perch]

Distribution?

[tropic knoll]

yeah since low rolls will be like exponentially lower in value than high rolls

[brazen perch]

this is the distribution

[dusty quarry]

?????

[prime remnant]

The important thing for bloodstone is 'what percentage of the time does it score less than I need to win'

Which is slightly different than the mean

[dusty quarry]

How did you get these answers I am baffled no offence

[dusty quarry]

Yes this is true

Overshooting don't matter

But at that the same time the high roll can be what wins you the game and if it is at the same xmult as ancient joker it's kinda iffy as a value proposition alongside one another

[hoary path]

Mr Thunk, have you seen anything in the suggestion channel that seem like they might become canon, if you get what I mean? :P

[dusty quarry]

Eh, hypotheticals that aren't all that likely

[ocean forge]

bloodstone is probably more similar to lucky cards now than things like trib or idol

or glass

[brazen perch]

but you already had these numbers in your orginal screenshot so thats why im confused what you mean

[topaz edge]

I'm still on the side of unncessarily nerf on BS, but alas

[dusty quarry]

Yeah maybe I'm looking at it wrong, I'm like about to go to bed but I had a feeling that this might be a change that would come out and I'm about as unsure of it as I thought I would be

[ocean forge]

so for like, 50% you'd be looking for the median i guess

[dusty quarry]

My statistician brain needs to remember that you just need to get past thresholds and if you're not at imminent risk of needing to rely on the thing then it is absolutely better now

[dusty quarry]

Wdym

[prime remnant]

This is where I am approaching it from

[ocean forge]

localthunk mentioned the 50th percentile earlier, thats the median right?

[prime remnant]

It had a higher ceiling before but if you whiff on the 1 in 3 then who cares what the ceiling is

[dusty quarry]

For all intents and purposes yes

[prime remnant]

So this is less likely to whiff, but worse power level for your actual score

better to plan a build around that way

[tropic knoll]

i dont really know what i mean either, since there are only a few values you can just pick them and know exactly for a few values but i feel like being able to graph it in a different manner would make for a better understanding of the tradeoff between multiplier and the probability of each hit

[ocean forge]

yeah, this change for bloodstone is fine i thin

[brazen perch]

The median is just 1.5^3 + 1.5^2 / 2

🤔

[ocean forge]

like, it shouldnt be THAT MUCH stronger than the other gem jokers (rough diamond you are still weak im sorry!)

[dusty quarry]

From this I guess the question for me then becomes where is luck and swing welcome in the game and where is it not

[prime remnant]

It's still 1 in 2

[tropic knoll]

if we simplify the problem to a continuous grpah it might be more easy to understand the trade off buit it is technically inaccurate

[topaz edge]

I've run into seed that gives nothing BUT the first Bloodstone and then lose on low roll (on 1.0.c)

[prime remnant]

for scoring the 1 in 3 was approaching frustrating

[topaz edge]

again, everyone seems to ignore the random fact of the seed natural

which is really anti-fun

[prime remnant]

This is less common on 1.0.1c than 1.0.0n

That was the reason I changed it

And I don't think it's anti fun - I saw so many pogged up screenshots of Bloodstone

[gritty mortar]

I have never lost a run with new Bloodstone

[ocean forge]

it was maybe too strong before

[ocean forge]

i have lol

[gritty mortar]

and I have gone mad with power with it + oops all 6s

[dusty quarry]

I loved bloodstone as it is and the 1.01c one is broken but still fun even if it carried a couple gold stake wins

[prime remnant]

I really like the 1 in N effects

[lyric spindle]

I have had multiple runs where a Polychromed Bloodstone has killed me (I rolled the 1/32 no triggers at least three times now)

[topaz edge]

naturally no one wanna post their whiff. I didn't, because I'm sure 10 more people here would counter

[gritty mortar]

admittedly, that may be because of getting the gold stake win on it and then deliberately not grabbing it so other jokers could get stickers

[prime remnant]

Trying to add them where it's fun

[dusty quarry]

But then I think back to those wins and go "oh yeah actually I was fine with retrigger photograph lol"

[terse gulch]

odds of a whiff go from 32 in 243 (about 13%) to 1 in 32 (about 3%)

which make it much more fun

[dusty quarry]

Me too, I don't care if it makes things frustrating from time to time if it can give you an edge that just, happens. If you get my gist

Lucky cards in particular feel especially fun now because seeing that dough roll in or that clutch 20 mult that saves me when I wouldn't have otherwise is just. Mwah

[prime remnant]

Sometimes they are very unfun - I've had to remove a lot of 1 in N effects, but right now I think I like all of them

So I'll keep trying to add more as the game gets more content

[dusty quarry]

I'm sure you've seen the banana probability memes right

[prime remnant]

I honestly think if you get the 1 in 1000 that is kinda fun

[gritty mortar]

I am one of the few people to have had Cavendish blow up on me

and my reaction was "WTF!!!!!!! laughing while screaming"

[ocean forge]

more 1 in N effects = more dice synergies!!!

[dusty quarry]

I think you'll find, in fact, that one in a thousand people had it die on their first round with it. 🤓

[placid venture]

cavendish popping makes for great reactions

[ocean forge]

what are all the 1 in N effects (anything that dice affects)

currently

[hoary path]

bloodstone, hallucination, space joker, business card, reserved parking, 8 ball...

both bananas

[low cradle]

lucky cards, glass cards, wheel of fortune, wheel blind

for non jokers

[ocean forge]

decent amt

[prime remnant]

like half the tags used to be 1 in N

[dusty quarry]

Wheel of fortune
The wheel boss blind
BANANAS
lucky card
Bloodstone
8 ball
Reserved parking
Business card
Space joker
That one challenge run
Hallucination
Glass cards

I'm sure I've missed some things

[ocean forge]

the skip tags being 1/N sounds so not worth it

[prime remnant]

yeah it sucked

[placid venture]

they were so bad during the demos that it was depressing

[hoary path]

imagine a tag saying

[prime remnant]

mostly just frustrating when they do nothing

[ocean forge]

the wheel im okay with it noping

[prime remnant]

since it's a delayed effect

yeah wheel isn't delayed

[ocean forge]

i just hit it and move on

[upbeat spindle]

i think reserved parking is really bad especially when you compare it to business card

[low cradle]

yeah i remember a similar problem being discussed by the super auto pets devs

[upbeat spindle]

they have very similar effects, just reserved is so much worse

[dusty quarry]

Truly, 1 in n is the Snecko eye of our community

(I have posted cringe)

[ocean forge]

i feel like if localthunk was gonna add more content, some of the jokers should maybe be rewards for the challenges, idk

maybe not, idk

[dusty quarry]

Seems like pain

[hoary path]

Thunk, if you have the desire to give such information, how big or small would you want the first content update to be, just like, a handful of jokers or whole new consumable collections/gameplay mechanics?

[upbeat spindle]

ehh challenges aren’t for everyone, and having jokers locked behind them would be frustrating

[dusty quarry]

100M is already tough enough for many people

[prime remnant]

You'll see when it's ready!

[hoary path]

[dusty quarry]

Ominous

[hoary path]

gonna be equal to a 50 dollar egg I predict

[upbeat spindle]

local thunk what’s your favourite legendary

[dusty quarry]

Can't wait to find out the sole reason why terraria 1.4.6 isn't releasing until 2035

[hoary path]

to this day I imagine Jimbo's voice is Hugh Neutron

[prime remnant]

You all want some deep lore

[ocean forge]

yes

[prime remnant]

Jimbo's voice is my voice

[terse gulch]

:O

[prime remnant]

not even joking

[dusty quarry]

How'd you manipulate it?

[prime remnant]

I pitched it up by like 200% I think

[hoary path]

Now I see localthunk messages as 'ee o ang in oing'

[prime remnant]

maybe a bit more/less

[brazen perch]

new median: 2.81

Previous median (1.0.0): 3.333333
ish? Im not confident in the math im doing, but it isnt far off.

[placid venture]

ok brb pitching down jimbo's voice for that sweet voice reveal

[prime remnant]

median = middle most value

[dusty quarry]

Would you like me to explain how to work this out

[prime remnant]

in this context

[hoary path]

though tbh Jimbo now sounds like a tweety bird because x4 speed is always on

[brazen perch]

i would prefer you just give the answer lol

so we know how it changed

[dusty quarry]

Uhhhh no paper or puter only phone

[ocean forge]

statistics is such unintuitive math its amazing

[dusty quarry]

Yup

[ocean forge]

tbf, all math is unintuitive unless youre some genius like einstein

[dusty quarry]

Trust me it only gets more obnoxious at uni

[ocean forge]

im taking calc3 rn!!

[prime remnant]

I'm sorry I derailed this - my fault

but this should be on topic for 1.0.1e

looking for bugs/issues

[ocean forge]

sorry, i understand

[prime remnant]

no it was my bad

[hoary path]

Who's the joker now--
1.0.1e is great so far. Hit the Road still works

[dusty quarry]

I'll dm just for brief explanation

[hoary path]

I know we were all worried about road

[hollow raptor]

bloodstone nerf, noooo

it's entirely valid imo, it was something I'd bet runs on lmao

like I'd see it and be like "is it worth potentially throwing just to take this" and always say yes

[terse gulch]

one bug while you're here
This was actually inherited even from 1.0.0 but I never got to mentioning it
RNG for stickers is linked across buffoon packs and shop jokers

[hollow raptor]

at some point I saw pareidolia and was like "right, that means seeing faces in places where there aren't any" and then started to look for faces in the abstract swirly background, and now that haunts me intermittently
sorry that's not relevant at all /j

[brazen perch]

My #1 issue from 1.0.1c was that rental tags apply to perished jokers but polychrome doesn't. I believe its still the case in 1.0.1e since it wasn't mentioned in the notes.

[placid venture]

what does this mean actually

Polychrome Tag cannot hit Perishable jokers?

[brazen perch]

it means when a joker perishes it removes the polychrome from the joker but not the rental

[placid venture]

that's normal

[brazen perch]

okay, well then the wording on pershiable should be changed, or a visual element indicating that it works that way

[hollow raptor]

rental sticker is a sticker, so I guess stickers aren't affected by debuffs?

I wish debuffing jokers was more common just because of the funny interactions it causes.

things like popcorn not losing value at the end of the round

[ashen token]

Unrelated to the discussion above, stickers applying to jokers from free tags doesn't feel all that great. Especially perishable stickers.

Skipping for jokers feels very strong in the beta (maybe too much so), but taking a risk and getting screwed because of a factor you couldn't predict is...eh.

[dusty quarry]

You could argue that balances out the power increase from making them free but it can be very frustrating and I know some people consider them actively worse now

[hollow raptor]

I kinda wish there were ways to interact with stickers, but the fact that they only exist on higher stakes means you can't really implement anything that wouldn't be functionally dead at white stake :T

like I'd love to have some way of removing stickers, or even adding stickers (specifically eternal) in the case of madness

[dusty quarry]

Naked Madness is glorious

[onyx summit]

Adding stickers would be cool, but yeah removing them would be awkward

[hollow raptor]

ofc that's not relevant to this patch, obvs localthunk isn't gonna just create a brand new thing for that

[paper peak]

Looks like the nerf to bloodstone is fair. Still able to get a win easily on Orange blind. Even the buff to the ante scoring is fair. The Violet Vessel at 1 200 000 is huge but not impossible. Took the last 2 x-mult on the last few ante to help of course, so Bloodstone is not enough to carry the run alone, which is a great change. The change to the perishable also helps a lot in finding non-stickers joker. Lot of fun overall, thanks! ❤️

[ashen token]

Yeah I'm not sure of a great solution. If anything I would say perishable not being able to hit jokers you tagged for might work.

[onyx summit]

Violet vessel is pretty difficult in the new update

[hollow raptor]

it should be, tbh

[ashen token]

Rental or eternal just heightens the risk, while perishable can turn a cool run-making joker into a disappointment.

[onyx summit]

I mean it was already the hardest ante 8 boss

[hollow raptor]

violet vessel is the only blind you can be fully prepared for before ever seeing it. if you get to ante 8 and see violet vessel when you're already scoring enough to beat it, then you don't have to adapt to it at all

[onyx summit]

But if you aren't scoring 3x the boss you lose

[rose rose]

Missed non-retroactive scaler?

[ashen token]

I sorta disagree. Amber Acorn is normally dealt with pretty easily with the "hold your mult joker" tech.

[hollow raptor]

nahhhh.

it still does something

with violet vessel you could, theoretically, just enter the round and do what you were already doing to win previous rounds, if you were winning them by enough

[brazen perch]

nice find.

[lapis oxide]

“Some”

Not all

Hologram was not listed in the patch notes

[terse gulch]

intended?

[brazen perch]

oh, it was intentional?

[ashen token]

Theoretically, yes, but realistically? How often does amber acorn lose a run vs violet vessel

[paper peak]

You can prepare for it quite easily with stocking up a glass card + a steel card in your consummables, picking up a few jokers if needed in the previous 3 shops. You will be in full control of your hand, so the difficulty is fair. At this point in the game, your economy should be ready for it.

[terse gulch]

I mean I could see situtional use of a perishable hologram

like if it was the final points you need

[ashen token]

but imo this is "amber acorn is too weak" as opposed to violet vessel is too strong

so maybe not relevant to this patch

[brazen perch]

seems strange to name like a class of jokers (non-retro-scaling) and then leave some of them out.

[hoary path]

which ones were left out?

[prime remnant]

hologram is retroactive

isnt it?

[brazen perch]

I dont think so

[paper peak]

It is not

[terse gulch]

[paper peak]

I just had a run with it

[rose rose]

I have certificate in this run and it's still 1.0x

[lapis oxide]

Since when?

[prime remnant]

Was it in the demo?

[terse gulch]

time to make holo retroactive

[hoary path]

^

[terse gulch]

yep

[prime remnant]

Ah that's why I'm confused

yeah I'll change it

[hoary path]

:o

Hologram about to get ANOTHER glow up

He already glows

But now he bouta SPARKLE

[rose rose]

My man

[sly violet]

holo fans celebrating

[hoary path]

one of my fav builds is certificate hologram. I want to use marble joker one of these days though

[hollow raptor]

wait, hologram was supposed to be retroactive?

[prime remnant]

no it isn't

[hollow raptor]

okay

[prime remnant]

It was at one point and I changed it

[paper peak]

nah would be over powered

[hollow raptor]

really would be.

[prime remnant]

I was thinking of throwback actually

I got confused

[hollow raptor]

ohhhhh

understandable

[hoary path]

throwback is retro, holo is not. so holo gets a glow up anyway and becomes immune to perishing

[terse gulch]

throwback had a lot of balance patches

[dusty quarry]

I will never get over the high that was my 120 card stone joker setup

(on plasma)

[lyric spindle]

Marble + Blueprint + Hologram was my first experience getting Stuntman 100M chips unlock

Hologram is a fun experience to play with in my runs so glad that it is non-perishable lol

[hoary path]

I wonder if Constellation should be retroactive. The scaling is small enough

[dusty quarry]

Obelisk retroactive would be hilarious

[prime remnant]

I want as few retroactive scalers as possible

they are much less interesting

[dusty quarry]

Yeah that's fair, I like obelisk more and more every time I play it

[lapis oxide]

Constellation is listed in the patch notes

[prime remnant]

obelisk gets a bad rap, maybe rightfully so, but it's in my top 5 fav effects still

I love it so much when I see it ante 3-6

[hoary path]

Obelisk is Pivot: The Joker

[placid venture]

obelisk is interesting

[prime remnant]

it's always a thinker in the midgame

[wheat warren]

wait, did vampire get nerfed more?

[smoky bison]

I think it's one of the best jokers, but it's so hard to correctly pivot it can be a run killer

[prime remnant]

buffed

[hoary path]

vampire is uncommon as it should be

[lapis oxide]

It went back to Uncommon

[hoary path]

poor guy's had enough abuse

[wheat warren]

oh i see

[placid venture]

vamp is in a good spot now

[smoky bison]

Like how many random hands do you waste before you dedicate to your best hand and is your best hand consistent enough to keep the mult up

[obsidian dagger]

Lowhanding Obelisk is a challenge.

[smoky bison]

And even further, do you spam high card with eco jokers even before you see it for the chance of unlocking it further?

[prime remnant]

I love obelisk when I have been playing one hand all game and it shows up and I wonder 'is there enough runway here for me to make this work'

That feels very fun to me

[smoky bison]

It is fun

[hoary path]

I may not defend obelisk that much but I'll defend Hit the Road

[valid hawk]

I do like the perishable change, getting it on those scalers always felt bad

[dusty quarry]

Obelisk you can make work with 5 hands on your most played

[wheat warren]

i dont love how obelisk is practically pointless towards the start of the run, but idk if theres really a way to fix that lol

[hoary path]

I've seen Merry Andy Hit the Road on erratic deck go HARD

[dusty quarry]

Also CRIMSON HEART IS SO GOATED FOR IT THIS HAS HAPPENED MULTIPLE TIMES NOW

[low cradle]

bad rap of obelisk is absolutely not rightfully so its crazy

[placid venture]

i love obelisk if i'm running nonconditional jokers

[valid hawk]

1.2 mil violet vessel is scary

[prime remnant]

oh I 100% understand why people hate it

[wheat warren]

2.4 on plasma holyy

[hoary path]

if my jokers want flushes and obelisk shows up, obelisk is a roadside attraction and nothing more

[valid hawk]

but to be fair so was 1 mil violet vessel

[lyric spindle]

Used to be an obelisk hater, but once you actually perform an obelisk run right it's an immediate switch imo

[lapis oxide]

Wee Joker starting at 0 for the OCD folks since its value now always cleanly divisible by 8

[hoary path]

but if I'm struggling for survival, and obelisk shows up, it's coming with me

[dusty quarry]

Do you think doubling its increase was necessary just to quelm the hate for it a bit or do you think it's good as is? Or something else?

[prime remnant]

Oh no it's good as it. It's rare power level imo

It used to be 2X as good

and it was waaay too good

[obsidian dagger]

Obelisk: try getting 5-7 of a hand, then survive the whole run without blowing the thing up, that's real satisfying if you pull it off.

[hoary path]

demo obelisk was chonky

[ocean forge]

new runner is pretty good but i am a fan of straights lmao

[dusty quarry]

Wait am I getting mixed up was it not 0.1x?

[smoky bison]

I think it's a very skilltesting card that you really have to work for to use effectively, but when you have prenerf and even post nerf campfire which on the last ante is undefeated, and earlier still managable I think it seems very tough in comparison. I'd like to see if making it .25 would make it more liked but honestly I think it just hasn't been broken yet

[dusty quarry]

Oh right it was huge before yeah nvm

[dusty quarry]

Bleh, straights

[hoary path]

I'm glad you saw the new chad as perfectly fine. Do not touch chad no more, he's goated

[prime remnant]

The whole scaling joker update, BTW, was to make it less confusing. I saw a lot of posts thinking that all the scalers that didn't start at 0 were supposed to be retroactive

[hoary path]

Chad gets people hype now

[wheat warren]

new chad is awesome

[prime remnant]

and there isn't really a good reason for them not to start at 0

[obsidian dagger]

Chad being a chad

[prime remnant]

chad is great as is, it's so fun

[bright helm]

I made a graph for Bloodstone in case anyone was confused by the numbers getting thrown around. The short answer is that 1.0.1e Bloodstone is better than current patch almost 60% of the time, even though current patch can hit much higher.
Edit: see updated title below. this one is wrong

[wheat warren]

chad photograph is an awesome combo now

[wheat warren]

how is 101c below 101e?

[obsidian dagger]

That time I countered tooth by Chad-ing a gold seal card was big lol

[hoary path]

wait, I never saw it happen but I wonder. Can legendaries be eternal/perishable/rental?

[wheat warren]

isnt 101c 1/2 2x and 101e 1/2 1.5x

[dusty quarry]

Pls don't take away my beautiful chad graph combo it's so goated

[dusty quarry]

Uh, wrong way round on the y axis?

[prime remnant]

something seems wonky here

[dusty quarry]

Oh brain wrong

[topaz fossil]

do you have the calculations for how Bloodstone compares pre vs post patch with Oops All 6's?

[wheat warren]

thunk are there any plans for stake joker stickers being visible in game?

[tropic knoll]

why does it start at 0

[wheat warren]

or at least a nicer way to check than rooting through collection to see if youve gotten gold sticker on every joker?

[terse gulch]

I feel like the scale is just weird on the graph

[dusty quarry]

The point smoothing throwing you off?

[prime remnant]

shouldn't they all start at 100% for X1?

[tropic knoll]

what program did u use for it

[dusty quarry]

Not mine

[terse gulch]

it's like expected chance of not getting that much mult, and it's also like interpolated

[tropic knoll]

i cant find any models that will interpolate 5 points lmfao

[bright helm]

whoops. forgot to change the title back

[wheat warren]

even still, numbers dont make anyu sense

[lapis oxide]

Would be % chance of not hitting that XMult

[dusty quarry]

Wait yeah this is P(X<x)

[prime remnant]

Ahhhh okay

I see

[dusty quarry]

Yea

[wheat warren]

also how many cards played is that assuming?

[bright helm]

fixed

[lapis oxide]

5

5 hearts

[wheat warren]

ah

[terse gulch]

the changes end up being:
1.0.0n: 1 in 3 for X2
1.0.1c: 1 in 2 for X2
1.0.1e: 1 in 2 for X1.5

[prime remnant]

oh hello Dr

[wheat warren]

would you not expect this to be a bell curve

i guess its a bell curve but additive

[prime remnant]

shouldn't the blue line start at 0 too?

[low cradle]

the chance of 1x is missing all five times

[dusty quarry]

Better to represent this as the odds of hitting the mult so it goes from 100% to 0, this is slightly misleading right now to a casual observer imo

[low cradle]

the other two arent at 0 either

[prime remnant]

oh right don't listen to me

I'm dumb

[low cradle]

it happens

[prime remnant]

you saw all my if statements

[tropic knoll]

is 101e the newest one

[bright helm]

I could flip it around if you want

[tropic knoll]

?

[brazen perch]

In every way here is the version comaprisons:

1.0.0e<1.0.0<1.0.0c

[dusty quarry]

Hang on, no

[smoky bison]

if it aint broke, dont fix it 🤷‍♂️

[pseudo vault]

Without checking the "reduced motion" box, my cursor is experiencing a lot of "drift," wherein slight mouse movements get translated into exaggerated cursor movements. When I check the "reduced motion" box on, the "drift" goes away.

[dusty quarry]

The fit line should not be like this

The fit line should be horizontal and vertical only

[ocean forge]

1.0.0e has less variance tho

[prime remnant]

What is your slider set to in that menu?

[placid venture]

oh good catch

yeah happening to me too

[prime remnant]

Oh also are you in 'fullscreen' with a low resolution?

[brazen perch]

I doubt that's true.

[pseudo vault]

screenshake 0

[brazen perch]

not in comparison

[prime remnant]

can you try moving it to like 1?

[placid venture]

i'm on Windowed

[bright helm]

the more "right" the line is, the better it is. so the previous experimental patch is always the best

[tropic knoll]

which one is which

[dusty quarry]

That's incredibly misleading displaying it any other way than with horizontal and vertical fit lines, because the chance of hitting at least 2.5xmult is the same as 3xmult currently

But also excel is annoying

[pseudo vault]

cursor movements are stabilized now

[tiny heron]

ohno, bloodstone nerf ): [not like i used it a lot anyways]
and my boi square jonkler is no longer square! i want my money back!

[brazen perch]

1.0.0e is the newest patch, 1.0.0 is the oldest patch, 1.0.0c was the patch inbetween.

[prime remnant]

So it is an issue when it's at 0?

[pseudo vault]

only when at 0

[prime remnant]

interesting

and if you flip it back to 0 it comes back?

[ocean forge]

it has less variance than non-beta, probably still less variance than 1.01c but only due to having less mult

[vagrant sapphire]

Was square joker actually good before? I was never able to get much out of it, new stats seem like a pretty heavy nerf

[ocean forge]

square joker is massively "okay"

its. Just okay

[wheat warren]

square joker is goated?

[hybrid onyx]

so the crossing point is where it would say +80

[brazen perch]

the odds that you hit any given X mult is higher with the old old stone than the new new stone, is what im saying. So it doesn't have less variance in comparison.

[wheat warren]

if youre playing like high card, its a fantastic chip joker

[pseudo vault]

oh, it didn't actually come back when going back to 0. Let me try relaunching

[hybrid onyx]

meaning I think it's a buff overall

[brazen perch]

its just worse

[smoky bison]

massive injustice to lose the flavor. Honestly would never take it for that fact alone tbh

[vagrant sapphire]

A buff if you get it super early but otherwise it's way worse

[hybrid onyx]

by the time you're making use of the chips on square it says +100-ish

[dusty quarry]

@bright helm are you able to render this again but with dummy plot points such that each actual plot point is connected horizontally and vertically only on an exact line of best fit

[hybrid onyx]

square has always been very slow scaling

[prime remnant]

I must have buttsed something up

[brazen perch]

takes you 16 hands to eat out the debt, which should be realtively quick. Should be a buff overall

[hybrid onyx]

if you're not going to scale it to +80 or higher then you're better off with any of the other +chip commons anyway

[tiny heron]

Welp, anyways, , I must admit that some of these changes are pretty neat in general, bloodstone deserved its nerf, vampire deserved his buff and i like to see some scaling jonklers starting at 0 instead of already giving some chips by default, but square is no longer square ):

[valid hawk]

also square was very good for a common

[dawn loom]

I'm mad that the chips you gain from square joker is not a square number

[prime remnant]

I know rip square at 4

I am also mad

[placid venture]

if you really think about it 5 is a square

[dusty quarry]

Runner better

[bright helm]

sure

[tropic knoll]

square at 9 when ?2/?@/@

[wheat warren]

root 5 squared 🤔

[tiny heron]

me is stupid, explain

[vestal zephyr]

keep it at +4 with a bonus for playing 4 4s

[smoky bison]

but it's still 4 cards, flavor fail

[placid venture]

(sqrt(5))^2

[valid hawk]

not usually, but it depends

[dawn loom]

You know what a square number is mf

[placid venture]

real

[dusty quarry]

Ty, sorry for the persistence

[wheat warren]

ah i was Joking

[hybrid onyx]

maybe theres some mechanical change to square joker that would make it proc less often but be balanced at +9 lol

[vagrant sapphire]

Like just comparing square to, I dunno, hiker, square just doesn't seem to get pretty much any use imo. One of em effectively adds 25 chips per hand (if you're playing a particular hand, which you can fish for with discards usually) and the other adds 5 with the caveat of also needing to only play four cards

Just seems undertuned to me

[dusty quarry]

Quite often it's better, even if you're only landing a straight every 3 hands it gens more chips

[placid venture]

hiker is also delayed

[dusty quarry]

Square joker far from bad though

[tiny heron]

ah, well, gl trying to live every day while knowing that square jonkler is no longer square

[prime remnant]

square is great because it applies to every hand you play no matter what the cards are

[valid hawk]

hiker only adds 25 chips a hand if you play the exact same hand every round

[prime remnant]

it just has a condition for the scaling

[valid hawk]

and it's once per round

[vagrant sapphire]

Yeah but even in a worst case scenario you permanently add chips to a bunch of cards and then sell it for something else

[ocean forge]

same reason why runner is gr8, even tho once you start straighting its hard to stop

[valid hawk]

which in normal 8 ante gameplay is not something that happens

[smoky bison]

I feel like every change I can think of for square to make it flavorful again but buffed would be way too complicated for a common joker 😦 I think it will either forever be unflavorful from now on

[tiny heron]

This, this is why it's so good! Easy and nice scalling, and is a common!

[terse gulch]

I made a cumulative graph in desmos
Odds of getting at least this Xmult represented by the points (connected in straight lines just for visual purposes)
Red - 1.0.0n
Orange - 1.0.1c
Blue - 1.0.1e

[vestal zephyr]

gives double chips on 4 4s

[dusty quarry]

Nah in spite of the runner I'm still gay as hell

[terse gulch]

x-axis is logarithmic btw

[placid venture]

trueeee

[dusty quarry]

Grrrrrr

[brazen perch]

this looks correct

nice graph

[dusty quarry]

But yeah this looks about right

[smoky bison]

maybe every square number doubles chips from cards or something? but that's a completely different joker at that point tbh

balancing is hard 😫

[prime remnant]

5 for a common scaler is totally fine - how does it compare to something like ice cream?

[brazen perch]

the way to interpret this graph is that the new version is always worse than the original unless all you need as a 1.5x (only applied to base mult)

[prime remnant]

Or the page 1 chip jokers

[terse gulch]

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/antczxgyvx

[dawn loom]

But square number

[vestal zephyr]

or a 50% chance for 4 or 8 chips

[hybrid onyx]

oh, i guess square and ice cream cancel each other out now

neat

lol

[tropic knoll]

8 isnteven a square lol

just add more rng for no reason

[hoary path]

runner eventually being able to give chips for any hand played, just not scaling, is good. chip jokers are essential for late game

[ocean forge]

the page 1 chip jokers are good bc they start high, but ofc theyre stuck at those values, so square and runner can (if you try hard enough) get at least double their values

[vagrant sapphire]

Square should just give +16 then

[tropic knoll]

4 chips, 49% chance for 9 chips ?2/?@/@?

[smoky bison]

the buff is good the only problem is the flavor changes lol

[ocean forge]

just think of 5 as the square of 2.2360679775

[placid venture]

can square joker give +100 chips that's the closest square to 4

[unborn sparrow]

it should be +1 chip, and then +4 chips cause they're both square numbers

[smoky bison]

maybe every 4 and 9 does something?

[dusty quarry]

Ty, just discovered how bad desmos editing is on mobile lmao

[prime remnant]

I'm not changing it lol it's fine

[lyric spindle]

Play 2.2360679775 cards to earn 5 chips

[ocean forge]

yeah its fine

[placid venture]

flavor L is a sad day

[smoky bison]

I mean balance > flavor any day tbh

[terse gulch]

+4 chips, 1 in 9 chance for +9 chips

[dusty quarry]

Can't wait for the pi of spades to make it into balatro

[vagrant sapphire]

I mean I'm probably just gonna keep ignoring it anyway so I don't mind lmao

[dusty quarry]

Truly even

[smoky bison]

But I just feel like there's a middle ground possible, it just needs to be thought up

[dusty quarry]

Wait no I meant evil

Thanks auto correct

Whatever

It works

[terse gulch]

it's mathematically equivalent while still only using square numbers

[hollow raptor]

square joker should just give n^2 chips where n increases by 1 each round :D (joke)

[ocean forge]

plasma deck

[placid venture]

i did feel weird that the chips scaling jokers didn't start at 0 before, thank you thunk

[prime remnant]

That's the main reason for the change

[restive hinge]

I believed that stuntman nerf was kinda harsh ngl

[brazen perch]

1 in 16 for + 16 chips :)

[prime remnant]

It confused people

[smoky bison]

wait at what point does that start being op, I kind of like this idea

[low cradle]

you could keep it mathematically equivalent by making it a 1 in 144 chance for 144 chips

[dusty quarry]

It only increases in value of the chips it gets to are the sum of two squares

[restive hinge]

-2 hand size as a rare is kinda ehhh

[tropic knoll]

which one

square?

[ocean forge]

i think the vampire quality change is good, uncommon is where it belonngs w those stats

[smoky bison]

I think it's fine, but should have been the first change to be made, revert to 300 and it's perfect

[terse gulch]

1 in x^2 chance for x^2 chips, where x is the amount of upvotes this idea has

[brazen perch]

and a 1/25 for + 25... and a.... lol. Can you imagine the computational demand

[restive hinge]

With 250 chips arrow head can also do that

[unborn sparrow]

stuntman is still kind of crazy imo

[restive hinge]

No downsides as well

[hollow raptor]

well, 20 rounds played = 400 chips so somewhere around 15 I think

[ocean forge]

arrowhead requires spade flushes for 250 chips

[dusty quarry]

Is stuntman the only chips rare apart from vagabond on technicality?

[restive hinge]

Flushes are always good tho

[ocean forge]

flushes/flushhouse/flushfive/straightflushes

[lyric spindle]

I think 300 chips would be a solid fix for rare stuntman

[smoky bison]

I mean downside is not unconditional + need 5 spades every time to hit that, and you could be not in spades which is often true

[terse gulch]

isn't that easier than -2 hand size tho?

[prime remnant]

The strength of stuntman was in how simple it is to force a highcard/pair run

[placid venture]

Square, Runner and Wee

[restive hinge]

Wee

[dusty quarry]

Oh yeah

[teal moth]

ooh a new balance patch 👀

[ocean forge]

not with high card

[smoky bison]

It's comparable if you start with both but it's not even close if you're not in a spot where you can pivot

[proven wyvern]

Stuntman felt like an insta-win a LOT of the time

[terse gulch]

[proven wyvern]

Rare is fair

[restive hinge]

But high and pair kinda fell after the no less handsize change for gold

[prime remnant]

it's still very good

[restive hinge]

Almost no one does that

Straights are the meta

[prime remnant]

I don't think that's true

[dusty quarry]

Stuntman is very much instant power at an instant cost

[proven wyvern]

Hard disagree

[low cradle]

high card is still very much viable on gold stake

[proven wyvern]

Straights being meta doesn’t mean that high card isn’t still good lol

[ocean forge]

i feel the difficult part of some highcard runs is getting the chips you need, since youre usually not at all getting it from the hand itself (unless you have burnt joker), you need something else, whether that be stone cards or jokers (stone cards ehhhhh)

[unborn sparrow]

stuntman is insane if you're set up for it at all

[dusty quarry]

So even if I can get square joker to beyond it I don't care because stuntman is NOW

[valid hawk]

they're pretty much as good as they used to be, it's just now other things are also good

[proven wyvern]

Stuntman is also VERY easy to pivot to IMO

[ocean forge]

the swashbuckler change is so good (i say, having never played without 1.01c swashbuckler)

[unborn sparrow]

like being rare is great because now it means that 10% of runs don't just turn into "stuntman lol"

[dusty quarry]

And can be easy to pivot out of too

[proven wyvern]

Swash change is great

[smoky bison]

Also compensates for low planet hands, but I think 300 but rare is a change I don't think would be too broken and while 250 isn't bad I feel like it's such a cool card that you shouldn't have to not take it more often than you do

[restive hinge]

I think it is still meh because of the rental change

[dusty quarry]

Same with vagabond

[unborn sparrow]

vagabond was more interesting to play with imo

[prime remnant]

I thought the swashbuckler minigame was interesting at first but I realized I don't find it fun to puzzle out

[unborn sparrow]

i mean it's not like it's bad as a rare lol

[smoky bison]

Also stuntman is my favorite art in the game ngl, bar none. I love that smug lil guy

[dusty quarry]

But it's also one of the best jokers in the game

That just turns a lot into ATTENTION, WE ARE NOW HAVING FUN STAYING POOR

[restive hinge]

Abstract is just consistent swash lol

[proven wyvern]

Yeah it just kind of felt frustrating. I’d usually place it 1 before the end without thinking about much else

[hoary path]

Runner is better indeed, and wee got smaller but is still everyone's biggest hero

You can never have too many chips

[ocean forge]

vagabond is hard sometimes bc u gotta figure out when you need to actually focus on econ. which can be hard when you have tarot cards

[dusty quarry]

Now apply this argument to stuntman

[restive hinge]

Hmmmmm

[dusty quarry]

Or you can just take it on a whim and almost never be punished

[low cradle]

i mean abstract is common

[smoky bison]

In theory it's fine but in practice it's unplayable in most comps because of how xmult ordering works, maybe it would have been better in cards to the right but honestly it's 1000% fine without that minigame

[restive hinge]

Btw will plasma deck get an actual nerf?

[oak stream]

guys since we're all mad about square i have a solution
buff to 9 and make it uncommon

[restive hinge]

It is too damn good

[dusty quarry]

It's also a less severe case of immediate mult with some conditions that can mean it can sometimes maybe be le mediocre

[unborn sparrow]

i mean the problem with cards to the right is that it's basically always correct to just put it all the way on the left

[teal moth]

i think it was intentionally made for cards to the left for that exact reason initially

[restive hinge]

Square is no longer square numbers

2^2 isn’t 5

[prime remnant]

This exactly

[smoky bison]

Think stuntman change was the nerf lol

[valid hawk]

it's not that broken for high stakes

[ocean forge]

^

[unborn sparrow]

i mean multiple chips jokers did just get buffed

[ocean forge]

plasma deck doesnt need a nerf, the decks arent meant to be balanced around eachother

[oak stream]

yes ik

[valid hawk]

it is very good for high scores, but gets outperformed for beating gold stake

[smoky bison]

Then honestly I don't think it was balanced for that at all then, if it were 2 mult per sell value maybe but it just ended up being unplayable once you got xmult

[prime remnant]

Yeah same reason I'm totally cool with Black deck being the hardest

they aren't supposed to be balanced against each other

[rapid quartz]

Just rename square joker to pentagon joker, ez fix

[restive hinge]

My hatred for nebula is gonna stay ig

[restive hinge]

Fax

[oak stream]

but then it needs to be 5 cards!!!!!!!!

[restive hinge]

New art even to fit lol

[dusty quarry]

Nebula is kinda a challenge deck to me but idk

[stray wren]

nebula is cool

[dusty quarry]

Zodiac and magic are cooler though

[oak stream]

nebula is great

[unborn sparrow]

i still can't quite tell if nebula is a challenge deck

or if i just play it incorrectly

[stray wren]

square joker +5 chips? awww man

[oak stream]

play straights, keep at max interest, win

[restive hinge]

It didn’t have a downside on beta

But it was still a meh deck

[stray wren]

that sucks

[prime remnant]

everyone thinks black deck is hardest right?

[oak stream]

telescope was different then

[stray wren]

yeah

[spiral rapids]

God I love this game

[unborn sparrow]

there's no doubt

[oak stream]

yeah

[terse gulch]

yep

[restive hinge]

Same tier as nebula for me

[unborn sparrow]

black is like playing with 3 stakes up

[teal moth]

ye

[smoky bison]

Undoubtedly, it's better than before but still the hardest by far

[oak stream]

took me more than 3 weeks to gold stake

[dusty quarry]

Mostly, you have some that think nebula is worse

[restive hinge]

You can’t stack with blue seal

[ocean forge]

yes

[restive hinge]

Or use the potential of emperor and high

[spiral rapids]

Imo yea

[prime remnant]

That's good I think

[dusty quarry]

I lucked out and got some dumb stuff for black deck gold on second try and haven't touched it since

[teal moth]

after beating plasma gold twice in a row with very bad pulls in shop i proceeded to lose 3 times in a row in red stake black lmao

[lyric spindle]

I died to Ante 8 Black Deck Gold like 4 times in my 5 hour endurance for Gold Stake in original 1.0.0 lmao

[restive hinge]

What if black was - discard instead of hand