1.0.1c Experimental

[torn isle]

Same logic

lol

[spiral comet]

it’s slightly different

[forest bloom]

lmao

[long breach]

Just to chime in on Vampire nerf, IMO it's way overkill. Let's compare with Constellation:
-Both scaling by x0.1 Mult and require purchasing another planet/tarot to scale
-Vampire = Rare, Constellation = Uncommon. Yet they scale at the same rate
-Constellation scale = instant upon buy & use a Planet. Vampire requires scoring an enhanced cards, wasting hands and potentially lose the blind.
-Vampire can scale faster with Tarot that enhances 2 cards at once, or via buying Standard Pack. However, this still requires actually finding AND playing the enhanced cards in each blind to scale.

In conclusion: This nerf badly need adjustment, as it puts Vampire into a "bad" Rare cards and can screw up skip tags on the wrong build. Maybe only 2 out of 3 nerf are warantted, such as:
-Keeping the x0.2 mult scale. This at least justify Vampire being "Rare", as it scales slightly faster than Constelation.
-Keeping it as Uncommon, so it falls more inline with Constellation and doesn't dillute the good Rare Joker pool
-Scale via all cards played, not only "scored". This at least lets Vampire scale faster with a bad hand, not requiring Splash to carry it.

[autumn quiver]

I assume Vampire nerf is reasonable because it doesn't make Bram Joker challenge any harder

[fleet thorn]

Are achievements disabled in experimental branch btw?

[summer pine]

I believe you can still get achievements

[fleet thorn]

Goodgood

[autumn quiver]

progress carries over

[pastel gulch]

The number of sources of tarot cards and their links to deck manipulation and econ make it way easier to scale a vampire up - how many people here have honestly had constellation hit 20x? now how many people have had vamp go 20x+?

with even 1 purple seal or a tarot joker vampire goes crazy

splash not needed either with tarots making it easy to draw 4+ card hands

[summer pine]

Yeah I do think there's something to be said about the upward potential of tarots if for no other reason than they generate both money (temp + hermit) as well as themselves (death via purple seals)

[pastel gulch]

while planets may not even benefit the hand your deck is built around

[summer pine]

I could still see vamp being just a really good uncommon but I think it's also fine as rare

[pastel gulch]

my issue with vamp as uncommon is it squashes any variance in playstyle

[summer pine]

That's fair in itself actually

[pastel gulch]

you get a vamp, you stack card enhancements and you play big hands

i started avoiding vamp cos it was A too easy and B too boring

[long breach]

I said it earlier, Vampire requires you to play hands to scale. Constellation is instant-scale

[pastel gulch]

playing hands is part of the game though

I don't get your point

[primal furnace]

anyone else think d6 tag feels even weaker now that the foil, holo, etc tags give u the jokers for free?

[summer pine]

and it also scales by 0.1 per enhanced card played which has the potential for 0.5x per hand, vs a planet card which you can hold at most 3 of

[long breach]

the point is that you might not even have the chance to scale it given bad RNG and / or limited hands

[pastel gulch]

3 per round, excluding high priestess etc

vamp can go 5 x number of hands

hence the crazy scaling and need to be nerfed

[long breach]

I said it earlier, the nerf is overkill. My suggestion simply reflect it by tweaking the nerf slightly

[pastel gulch]

the nerf puts it in line with other xmult scalers

[summer pine]

I felt similarly to you at first but I've come around on the nerfs myself

[long breach]

with the current nerf, Vampire is crippled because:
-You're forced to play more bad hands to scale
-On higher stake, you may not even have enough Discards to find your enhanced cards
-On higher stake, you may not have enough hands to play high cards to scale Vampire

[summer pine]

Not every rare hits when you find it, but there are a lot of decks that are already trying to build tarot gen

[long breach]

everyone's talking about big scaling given "ideal" condition, but here we're trying to look at it as a whole

hence my suggestion

I have no issue with nerf, just it's overkill and could use tweak

[somber lava]

nah d6 is still pretty good methinks

[summer pine]

I totally see not every nerfed vamp is hitting 5 at a time every hand, but even hitting 1 or 2 enhanced cards per round at first is fine

spending hands for scaling is pretty par for the course

[long breach]

that's only when you're given favor RNG

if you get enhanced cards via packs or Spectral Cards, it's a nightmare to scale

[summer pine]

I mean what are we really discussing here, we can go back and forth heuristically about what feels like "enough scaling" but what are we really looking at objectively

[pastel gulch]

?

what does that even mean

[pastel gulch]

these are poor arguments imo and the same could be said about constellation:

• you're forced to buy packs to scale
• on higher stake you may not have enough sources of planet cards to scale
• on higher stake, you may not have enough econ to scale

just irrelevant statements about the cards mechanics

[long breach]

consider your hands with let's say Mult card of 4H 3D 7H 8C and 10K. That's 5 hands to scale x0.5, on top of whatever you've spent to acquire them

[pastel gulch]

being able to scale a joker x0.5 with 1 hand is insane

polychrome is x1.5, for reference

[long breach]

1. Both Tarots and Planets can be buy in shop. For Planets, you're guaranteed x0.1 mult per $3 (default price). For Tarot, you must luck into the enhanced one to scale.
2. For Packs, you must enhance your cards in the shop, THEN find them to scale. Planets = x0.1 mult guarantee, again.
3. Higher stake scale points faster, wasting hands to scale = more chance to lose

[summer pine]

1. Many of the enhancing tarots apply to 2 cards so I think this balances out more than it might seem (though I acknowledge higher variance and not a 1:1 benefit ratio here)

godammit lmao

well 2. even if you have to draw them to play them, the more you get the more likely they are to draw, and even if the effect isn't immediate, it is still very likely to be drawn before you die due to low score

3. Again, what about bus or green joker? We "waste hands" for +1 mult all the time to establish a baseline, even on gold stake

[long breach]

this comes down to the issue I mentioned before. Because you must play scored card to scale, more often than not you have to burn hands if the enhanced cards you get don't form your winning hands

[primal furnace]

yeah i mean burning through hands to farm a joker is like. a thing you do with a lot of jokers

[summer pine]

I mean that's also true to take advantage of the enhancements on the cards? Idk why this is a huge sticking point for you, the fact that it's not guaranteed doesn't mean, over time, as you apply more enhancements, you're not more and more likely to draw some of them

I don't see this as an "issue" worthy of unnerfing the joker

[long breach]

I did bring up Constellation as a point, because an Uncommon Joker gives you unconditioned scale, vs a Rare Joker that requires you to gamble with your hands just to scale at the same rate is unwarranted IMO

even Campfire that requires buy & sell cards scale at 0.25x unconditioned now. That's $2 per x0.25 given ideal starting shop

[primal furnace]

campfire resets its bonus tho?

[summer pine]

I think also just if we look in practice at how vampire was scaling before, then take a look at how it actually scales in practice now, I can say from experience at least one time I got vamp post-patch, I still managed to get it to x4 by ante 8

[long breach]

yes. It lasts 3 rounds, and therefore requires constant fuel. My point still stands, it's unconditioned scale buy & sell, same with Constellation's "buy and use".

[summer pine]

I didn't have crazy tarot scaling stuff, only like 2 purple seals, and not crazy econ

[long breach]

look, if we're arguing about Tarot scaling stuff, we'll be here all day

I'm just speaking on a general gameplay where you spend money in shop to scale them

[summer pine]

that's my point, I wasn't pursuing the tarot stuff and still managed to get it above an average strong xMult x3 by the final fight

[primal furnace]

vampire feels on par with other rare jokers to me, it still feels like one of the stronger jokers in the game

[long breach]

I'd agree that if it loses one of the two nerf, it'd warrant Rare. But with "scored enhancement card scale x0.1", it shouldn't be Rare, as it's worse that most other Uncommon scaling ones

at least the Uncommon Scale can work with Baseball Card

[tulip radish]

Vampire does get the slight benefit of lucky card hitting two cards now instead of one.

[summer pine]

That's true as well, a lil boost

[long breach]

we can all agree that Vampire can potentially scale very fast thanks to more enhanced cards opportunity. The issue is, with the current nerf, it's RNG dependant (at least, on early game), which is bad for a Rare

consider this. You have both Constellation and Vampire, with one Planet and one Tarot packs in shop

[summer pine]

1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 11, 13, 15, 16
that's 9 different tarot cards that provide at least 1 enhancement (plus death which doesn't inherently but if you have at least one it does) out of 22

[tulip radish]

I also think vampire was almost unusable at higher stakes in the past because getting tarot cards became prohibitively expensive. Without any nerf it would have remained a “win more” card now that packs don’t scale in price.

[summer pine]

3 of them provide 2 enhancements

[long breach]

one purchase path lets you to instant x1.1
the other you must bet on the pack having the correct Tarot, stick it on a card that you may likely find, then play it

[long breach]

Again, this doesn't change the fact that most of the time you have to use in shop, then dig for it in your blind, which might not happen at all

if you hold a Tarot card, sure

I can see Zodiac Deck busted with its starting Voucher, but that's about it

[astral kayak]

o+

[long breach]

Vampire in its current state is unnecessarily bad, a bit tweak would make it balanced

[tulip radish]

All of this conversation is moot because your vampire has perishable now anyway and only lasts 5 rounds. 😜

[summer pine]

Something else worth mentioning is that, the tarot effects aren't worthless without vampire, getting steel and choosing not to play it can be the right move even when you have a vampire

splitting your planets isn't nearly as valuable implicitly

[long breach]

speaking of, I'd like to suggest LocalThunk to add a "renew" option for Perishable stickers lol

maybe the selling value of said Joker

so if you really, REALLY want it, you're incentivized to save up and revive it after 5 rounds

[summer pine]

Mmmm, feels kinda like it steps on Rental's toes there

[long breach]

^ yeah, except rental is perpertual until you sell

[summer pine]

the way it affects your decision making is currently distinct from "manage econ" and I think it should stay distinct

[long breach]

here it's more like "opt in" option

maybe a better option is to exclude scaling and temp Jokers from Perishable altogether, for you have no reason to take them

anyways, where were we...

[summer pine]

That's an idea I've thought of as well, but yes

vampire should turn into a bat when it hits 6.9x mult

[primal furnace]

i dont think vampire being weak in the early game warrants it being uncommon, its still a very powerful joker

[long breach]

it used to be a very powerful Joker. The current nerf makes it almost unusable outside of ideal build

[primal furnace]

it used to be a free win, it feels more in line with the mult scaling of other jokers now

[somber lava]

"almost unusable"????

[long breach]

Same with most Joker, it requires a very specific build to function. Previously this is somewhat doable in any blind, but now it's extremely hard to

[glacial dawn]

vampire is still really strong

[primal furnace]

the other xmult scaling rare is obelisk, and in its current state vampire is stronger than obelisk imo

[somber lava]

Vampire is still pretty good and still usable in any build

[long breach]

I wonder about that. Obelisk requires building in early game and has a killscreen, but it's once again unconditioned.

at worst, you'd be able to sneak x0.2, x0.4 temporarily per blind

Vampire can leave you dry with unideal shop / card draw

[primal furnace]

if it requires building in early game and has a killscreen, im not really sure what you mean by unconditioned?

[long breach]

you can spam 1-2 High Card, play Flush / Fullhouse, rinse and repeat

[proud pond]

this is just like wheel of fortune how is this 40% for a non-seal 😩

[somber lava]

...spam High Card?

[long breach]

basically this Joker is "play a bunch of hands, then keep a few winning hands ready"

[somber lava]

Eventually High Card would be your highest played hand

[primal furnace]

if you did this it would reset every time you spam high card

[long breach]

That's one of the way to gain some x Mult temporarily, is there?

you purposely reset Obelisk, then play your winning hand

[somber lava]

"you purposely reset Obelisk"

what

[primal furnace]

also wouldnt spamming hands to farm a joker be the thing you were criticizing about vampire earlier?

[somber lava]

no i'm genuinely confused why would you ever reset Obelisk on purpose

[long breach]

The reason I complained is because it's heavily RNG dependant:
-You must draw the enhanced card
-You must play a scoring hands with them

[dusk hinge]

there are some niche cases where it somewhat makes sense but in most cases obelisk is used as a pivot joker

[primal furnace]

pivot joker? :o

[dusk hinge]

like you play flushes during the first 4 antes and then you pivot to another hand and never reset obelisk

[long breach]

Because this way you can get temporary x Mult per blind, not having to worry about a bad reset at the wrong time

[primal furnace]

right right gotcha

[somber lava]

in this case Vampire is strictly better because it doesn't reset

[long breach]

this is how Obelisk is supposed to work, yes. It has a killscreen. As soon as all of your hands reaches 10 (for example), it's a guarantee reset

[somber lava]

like don't reset your Obelisk for a worse xMult????

[long breach]

the question is can you survive

get 10 enhanced cards ready to suck, not drawing them for 3 blinds, Game Over at The Needle

wait, that's a bad example

lemme rephrase...

[somber lava]

If you have Flushes at 10 then you can comfortably clear all 8 Antes with low effort managing your most played hand if you have an all-around build

[long breach]

10 enhanced cards, only get to scale 1 per blind, The Needle ends your run

[somber lava]

if you only draw two enhanced cards before getting to the boss blind i'm sorry you just got astronomically unlucky

[long breach]

nah, you can draw 3 and only scale 1 because you don't have enough hands to burn

this is the bad side of the nerf I was talking about, compared to a simpler, guaranteed scale Constellation provided

[tulip radish]

Just spitballing, but what if vampire scaled the same as it did pre patch, but the kind of enchanced cards he wanted to eat changed each round? I dunno. It’s early and I haven’t had coffee.

[long breach]

A to-do list, in a nutshell... I think it's a bad idea because we then have to prepare all kind of meals and may not even hit it before the blind ends

my suggestion currently is still tweaking the nerf - 3 current nerf is somewhat overkill when ALL combined, however just 2 of them would make more sense

[neat adder]

you mean like one round, you need mult cards, one round wild card etc=

[tulip radish]

Yeah. That’s what I was thinking. Probably too difficult to scale that way too.

[neat adder]

could be interesting, way harder to build around

pre patch was op but yeh we still want it to be good 😁

[primal furnace]

i could see something in that vein being a separate joker tbh

[tulip radish]

I know that when I would get vampire before I would indiscriminately enhance cards however I could, so I’d usually have at least a few of whatever he could potentially be hunting for, but might be hard to draw them at the right time.

[primal furnace]

maybe not xmult scaling and maybe not stripping the enhancements off, i could see a "play x enhancement, changes every round" joker being fun

[long breach]

Let's review them:
-Leave it Uncommon: Still slow scale and requires lots of efforts, but can benefit from Baseball Card
-Leave x0.2 intact: Scale the same as before, but slower because only scored cards matter.
-Leave "all played cards" intact: Scale is easier, at half the rate due to x0.1 instead of x0.2. This is easier to play and still warrant a Rare tag, as it scales on the same level with Obelisk

[tulip radish]

I think I’m on board with choosing to roll back one of the three. I don’t have a preference on which one, but I think that’s the easiest solution.

[long breach]

that's exactly my suggestion, people are piling on the fact that I think all nerf must be removed for some reason

[primal furnace]

i just think its fine in its current state shrug

[frail belfry]

What are we buffing?

[primal furnace]

talkin about vampire :]

[tulip radish]

My mental health.

[long breach]

oh hey, the dev drops by

[glacial dawn]

vampire is still fine now?

[somber lava]

vampire is definitely alright now

[frail belfry]

I think it’s fine as is but it’s impossible to tell unless we give it some time. If the game released with the nerfed Vampire we wouldn’t be hearing this kind of discourse

The fact that there’s something to compare it to makes it hard to properly measure this soon

[long breach]

Yeah this is in experimental branch so most people are seasoned players who can work around the nerf and find no issue. I'm trying to give feedback on the side of the more casual players who may find the nerf anti-fun (because it somewhat is, if we look at this as a whole rather than on specific build)

[autumn egret]

I agree vamp felt fine, imo tarot cards being commonplace (8ball, packs cheaper)+ magician changes felt like it was easier to feed cards. Def carried at least one averageish run of mine

[tulip radish]

My vampire is perishable and just eats all my enhancements and leaves without even saying goodbye anyway.

[hardy rock]

Orange stake letting you actually buy tarot packs helps a lot too

[autumn egret]

If your econ is good I think vamp may still be snap pickable

[hardy rock]

idk tho maybe it should still let you eat non-scoring cards, that part of it diddn't really feel op, only the midas mask part of that was a problem imo

[long breach]

Vampire is definitely fine when it works, and I do believe it's still functional with the nerf. It's simply on the anti-fun side when you factor in all the changes that gives you reason to hunt for it or when you picked it up from a skip tag

[long breach]

Midas Mask was already nerfed in this patch, so the combo really doesn't work as good as before unless you have a full Face Card Deck

[hardy rock]

Yah that's my point, midas mask should only count scoring but vampire should count both

[primal furnace]

i do agree that the triple vampire nerf + midas mask nerf feels a bit like overkill

[hardy rock]

even with it this way, the old combo still won't work

[primal furnace]

i hadnt considered that angle of it

[autumn egret]

I don't think it's anti fun, I really enjoyed it! If it was always at 1, like Thunk said, we wouldn't be seeing it from the lens of it being OP.

it really was way too strong before, and now it just feels like any other rare - strong when it gets going, but requires conditions

my current perspective comes from having it carry a gold stake run with 8 ball and superposition

[long breach]

Yes and no. I did say I'm fine with the nerf, I'm just saying the nerf was overkill, and it could use some Tweak. My case is still presented with a comparison against Constellation

[frail belfry]

There were a couple reasons for the ‘scoring cards only’ change, definitely sticking with it.
First, it was weird that non scoring cards could be affected when no other cards in the game worked that way. Consistent rules are important for the player to develop a reliable model of the game in their head.
Second, this makes 5 card hands slightly better than high card/pair/etc, which is important for higher stakes balance

[hardy rock]

Makes sense. I did enjoy the flavor of vampire 'eating' everything it saw, but yah i get it.

[primal furnace]

the consistency makes a lot of sense yeah

[somber lava]

Constellation is good but still slower than Vampire due to all the Tarot synergies

[glacial dawn]

also a splash buff

[autumn egret]

mmm constellation is interesting because it's way slower to stack than anything else, i haven't felt that it's out of line because it's very costly to get going

I get the comparison to vamp but it's much slower

[frail belfry]

So that change was a no brainer, other than that the rarity/number can be tweaked but it needs more time to tell for sure. If high hour players are saying it’s about in line that means it’s probably about in line, and as new players come they’ll interact with the card normally. But again it’s too soon to say either way

[somber lava]

indirect Splash buff lma

[frail belfry]

Remember tarots have more generation methods than planets too

And enhanced cards can be gained a few different ways without tarots

[autumn egret]

love 8 ball changes BTW 😎

[somber lava]

technically Steel is still usable with Vampire

nobody is forcing you to sac the Steels

[long breach]

This I'm okay with as a design choice. That leaves the other two option then.

[foggy mantle]

Tbh I think new vampire is pretty on par with constellation power wise

[somber lava]

if it really had to be changed then it'd be to revert Rare > Uncommon but it's at a fine spot

[foggy mantle]

Which is why I think its fine at uncommon

[long breach]

I think this is the most reasonable tweak, at least give this Joker a flat buff when paired with Baseball Card

[frail belfry]

If I was to change one thing the rarity would probably be it yeah, but again it’s too soon to tell. I won’t change it before the official release at least, there is a balance patch I have planned after this one goes live I could use to address if it’s a problem when the dust has settled

The testing for 1.0.1c will result in some changes but this one issue is really hard to separate from how good it was before

[long breach]

Constellation wise, it has a few support like Astronomer, Blue Seal, skip tag that guarantees x0.2. My idea is still the same: These are all unconditioned, you use planet, you scale Constellation. AND the planet buff your hands, even the burner one, allowing you to score higher and potentially get out of a hard blind

[frail belfry]

So it requires more time to stew

[glass bay]

yea getting free procs on mask vampire on non-scored face cards always felt a little weird

[somber lava]

there are still more ways to gen Enhancements than Planets

[long breach]

we're coming back to the "you must activate it manually", so I'll stop here

[somber lava]

plus with Tarots there's Hermit, Fool and Temperance which imo are better than Planets

[frail belfry]

The system is too complex to analyze apples to apples, the only way to know is through testing

[long breach]

losing a run because you can't buff Vampire in time isn't fun, at least to casual players

the risk vs reward must worth it for a Rare Joker IMO

[autumn egret]

i thought it felt like a rather fun minigame

racing to find tarot packs to buff my cards and let the vamp eat

[long breach]

remember that both Jokers want you to spend money. One is guaranteed and thus warrant the x0.1 scale. The other, you must feed manually

[glass bay]

bram poker moment

[autumn egret]

i was able to get it ante 3 with decent econ, so i could feel my mult improving with every purchase

[autumn egret]

bram poker in real life

[glass bay]

reference spotted ?!

[frail belfry]

Yall like the purp 8 ball?

8 ball was purple and generated tarots like 2 years ago, but it’s a slightly different purple now 🙂

[granite helm]

I love the ourple 8ball

[autumn egret]

purple 8 ball is so cool

makes it feel more...friendly

[primal furnace]

giving this a quick ping since it got buried by the vampire debate loll

[frail belfry]

8 ball purple because everyone knows Tarot cards are purple

D6 tag is goated. If you plan on rolling a lot it basically gives you $5 every time you reroll

[slim dew]

One thing I'd like to see is cards like Temperance banned from Jokerless, dead cards are painful there

[frail belfry]

So if you roll 5 times that’s 25 smackers, costs you $10 when it would have cost $35

10 times is 50 buckeroos

[primal furnace]

wait i thought d6 just makes the first reroll free??

OH

😭

never mindddd :P

[glass bay]

better than chaos the clown

dw

[frail belfry]

So true

[somber lava]

the $1 Rental Chaos the Clown in the shop:

[autumn egret]

i'll be honest...i never took d6 tag...because i'm a scrub

def will try it now

[summer pine]

I personally love my new D6 tag overlords

(it is really funny how deceptively beneficial it is)

plus with Flash card that's literally like free +10 mult

[long breach]

Flash Card + D6 Tag = brrrrrrrrrr

[summer pine]

I appreciate the "time will tell" approach to the balance patch though, it really is important for actual testing to be done before making changes on changes

[wide grove]

u 100%d the whole game without taking a d6

wut

[long breach]

well that's what experimental branch are for. First gather veteran players' opinion, then the general public

[autumn egret]

don't look at me LMAO

[summer pine]

I'll say again that my initial reaction to vamp changes was to bump it back down to uncommon but I also wanna give the Rare a chance

[wide grove]

have we already decided to debuff bloodstone back to 1.5x for 1/2

[autumn egret]

maybe i should put c++ in my username

so people can point and laugh at me

[wide grove]

(c++ no d6)

[autumn egret]

lmfaoooo

[wide grove]

i'm working on getting every deck up to gold via the patch

ghost rn

[long breach]

IMO it's weak as is for only Heart-only, vulnerable to boss blind that debuff Heart, etc...

[summer pine]

I think 1.5x half the time is weaker than 2x 1/3 of the time but the simple ability to get 2/2 with Oops probably will make people like that idea more

[wide grove]

every build is vulnerable to a single boss

the question is how busted it is when u don't run into it

[autumn egret]

except stuntman 😎 that guy's just too cool

what was the consensus on moving stuntman to rare btw?

[wide grove]

i voted it was fine but i'm gonna hunt him via rare skips

[long breach]

it still requires you to get lots of hearts and fuel Jupiter tho. A stock Bloodstone won't carry you past Ante 3 without additional buff

[wide grove]

as soon as thunk fixes the issue where i pay for rares when i skip lol

[summer pine]

damn

I'm paying full price for Rentals over here

[autumn egret]

i'd say this is the case for most jokers though, no? like you can hit the order (3x) in a straights build on ante 3 and still lose if it's your only joker

[long breach]

Using chance-based Jokers already put you at the mercy of the seed's RNG, we don't need further nerf IMO

[summer pine]

I also wanted to say, I love the saturn + neptune buffs because I think rewarding playing straights, the most complicated hand type, is really appropriate and fun to play with

[autumn egret]

so true, the run that got me c++ was a SF build with stuntman of all things lool

even with the hand size playing SFs felt great

[wide grove]

i've already had multiple successful straight runs now

they're def easier on nebula

[summer pine]

I got a shop skip with The Order in it and found a smeared and shortcut by ante 4, we were golden after that

[autumn egret]

sheeeeesh nice

[wide grove]

ok let's monitor situation

BB is offering me rare joker skip

i will take and see if it charges me again lol

[long breach]

Straight's biggest enemy is perhaps The Water and The Mouth lol

I lost so many run because I couldn't form a Straight in time

[summer pine]

Yeah but even then with hand size it's manageable, plus Mouth is fine if you're able to win in 1

[wide grove]

goddammit

[long breach]

Mouth = 1 hand type, so if you can't form a Straight first hand, you have to rely on whatever secondary hand you have in hand

[autumn egret]

huh? i don't see anything in that screenshot

[granite helm]

It’s a lower EV but also lower variance, so even if the total xmult given is lower on average, it’ll low-roll (and kill you if you’re relying on it) way less, which is important

[wide grove]

can someone confirm if thunk is aware that free rare jokers are never free in this patch

maybe it got fixed. just updated

ok it worked

[rare elm]

Tbh the vampire could be reverted to uncommon, mostly because it is a double edged sword: it gains Xmult, but you can't for example use glass cards or other enhancements in an emergency, while planets give permanent buff (constellation), so you have double scaling and backup options. Vampire deactivates drivers license, while constellation makes satellite better.
And yeah I know vampire has better synergy (midas + pareidolia vs astronomer for constellation), I don't think that makes it that much better than constellation (in comparison) to be rare.

[summer pine]

Totally fair

[rare elm]

Tho with how many uncommons there is compared to rares, id say it does not rly matter that much if it's rare or uncommon, lol

[autumn egret]

i'm not sure, though i remember thunk saying that there doesn't have to be a certain amount of each rarity

[fading jacinth]

Finally got to play nerfed Vampire in this update (Blue deck + Black stake). The "scored card" limitation was logical and should have been like that, previously I can just enhance random cards and feed them all in a high card which feels a bit too crazy. The nerfed scaling does hit hard but I had tarot generation (8 Ball and Cartomancer) so still scaled decently with that. It may not scale into ridiculous stuff now but I think it's still usable.
Vampire inherently means you're playing "purist mode" (no enhancements basically) so this is already a downside.

[rare elm]

So many people don't like constellation lol

At least I saw a few haters

[autumn quiver]

I tried playing via Steam link
the performance was as poor as 5 fps, which I believe caused rendering bugs
also exiting Big Picture mode quit Steam entirely lol

[fading jacinth]

I've also scaled constellation several times and it's also like it's not ridiculous but usable range.

[rare elm]

Yup, constellation is pretty balanced

[dusk hinge]

I feel like the "only scoring card" condition is the most important

[fading jacinth]

Tarot Cards and Planet Cards in shop are similar in price, you can scale Constellation just by buying planets, in contrast you can scale more at similar cost with enhanced cards on Vampire (because some are +2 enhanced cards) but you do suffer from dud tarots and requiring to play and score the card.

when I say "Dud Tarots", I mean suit changers, strength and wheel. Hanged Man, Temperance and Hermit is half a dud because while they do not contribute directly they might help indirectly. Emperor is just more RNG.

Temp/Hermit gives you more $ which could be another tarot in shop if you reroll, Hanged Man could be a digging assist.

IIRC bram only makes the natural shop spawns not appear. It doesn't even ban buffoon pack

[rare elm]

^

[ashen flame]

im having trouble getting the game to load after i add the experimental branch beta to my file
it updates fine after i select it but then the actual game wont boot up, anyone else having this same problem? i haven't seen anyone else except a couple people on reddit.
Also, thank you localthunk for making this absolute banger of a game that has taken over my brain!!

[rare elm]

They have 0 spawn rate, forcing a joker is a bit different

[dusk hinge]

Speaking of nerfs, I feel sad about Banner nerf but I guess it makes sense to limit high card builds abuses.

[autumn egret]

passing up soul 😔

right before ante 8 boss so no chance for scaling legendaries

[long breach]

Uncommon benefits from Baseball Card, which in itself is also busted when paired with Blueprint / Brainstorm

my idea is that Vampire is now high risk low reward, might as well make it compatible with Baseball Card as it should've been

[autumn egret]

good things come to those who egg 😄

nerfed campfire still really good

[wide grove]

swashegg so good

lol attempting madness run w ghost deck, it's hexed

five straight rerolls, only perishable jokers

where are my eternalllls

[long breach]

speaking of Eternal / Perishable and Rental

some combo definitely should be banned lol

[midnight musk]

Can we get a ban on the Water blind for "Golden Needle" too 😬

[autumn quiver]

there isn't a crash report option for Mac, Idk why

[eager yoke]

will progress on the beta transfer to the non-beta?

[long breach]

While we're on the subject, I haven't seen Joker-related tarot/tag/voucher banned on Jokerless challenge either

specifically Blank / Antimater / +2 common Joker skip tag / Wheel of Fortune / Temprance

[spiral comet]

don’t forget ectoplasm hex ankh

[long breach]

yeah, Jokerless is brutal enough that we need to ensure Tarot/Spectral/Skip tag actually give us something that helps lol

[long breach]

Funny enough, The Needle actually +1 hand on Golden Needle challenge

probably just a bug

[wintry spindle]

hey haven't been up to date and was just wondering, if i get a win on gold stake on the beta update, will it stay when the update actually hits??

for the joker golden sticker

[vast frost]

It should

[autumn quiver]

after discovering all jokers on my main profile, Ace of Spades in main menu no longer burns on all profiles

huh

but I like the idea tho
replacing A with a random joker that is or used to be behind a lock

[modern kiln]

I'll be honest - probably the best change in this entire update was the Hanging Chad change.

Hanging Chad is ungodly fun to play around with now, it has an insane number of synergies in the game between card enhancements, gold seals, editions, wee joker, the sin jokers, the list goes on and on and on. Previously it didn't do enough to really justify itself but now that you're triggering twice it's so so fun I love it

Actual contender for top 5 most fun joker in the game, it's just that fun

[ivory heron]

chad is fun now and 8ball too but 8ball might be a bit too powerful for a common now

[long breach]

eh, I say it's wheel of fortune for playing 8, not too powerful but not too weak either

[modern kiln]

It's the same chance as a wheel of fortune or glass card

Balatro has forever obliterated my perception of 1 in 4

[ivory heron]

yeah but its a 1 in 4 chance for every 8 played, it can get itself running pretty quickly., and it's not super hard to get it going. I think ive gotten 5 runs with it testing and 4 of them turned into huge tarot runs

i just mean in comparison to other commons

[modern kiln]

I haven't messed around with it so I can't comment, I'll def look to it when I get the chance tho

[ivory heron]

i have a decent seed for checking it if you want

[modern kiln]

I don't think seeds are an appropriate measure for balance n stuff

[ivory heron]

thats very fair

[modern kiln]

I think I'd rather keep playing and keep an eye out for early 8 balls

But the idea of playing 8s that help you make new 8s is definitely interesting and I can see how it can snowball

[ivory heron]

its very fun

[tame igloo]

riff raff is SSS+++ on gold stake because it doesnt generate jokers with stickers

[ivory heron]

true

[copper elk]

try winning gold stake with only commons, you commoner

inb4 square, half, medium and banana

space joker and some wof luck for good measure

[autumn egret]

actually that sounds like a fun achievement

[copper elk]

white's OK, but you need good synergy AND cavendish for enough scaling for gold

I mean... the alternative is something like hanging chad and photograph on any hand above 3 of a kind, preferably if you can get multiple copies of either with ghost

[pearl bramble]

Ooooo hanging Chad now triggers twice? I'll be honest, I haven't checked out all the balance changes, I've just been playing but maybe I should read up on that 👀

[copper elk]

hanging chad's now insane with photograph, good gold stake build if you find both early

past that, it's only a matter of getting enough planets of your chosen hand type

[autumn egret]

hanging

[copper elk]

dupe either with blueprint, invisible, brainstorm or early ankh and you're set

[green sable]

I rhink WoF should still be in jokerless so i can get my daily dose of "Nope!"

[modern kiln]

Sadly cannot be activated if you don't have a joker

[green sable]

NO

:(

Wait so theres a chance youre forced to skip a tarot plack?

[formal crystal]

I think no

Isn't it just temperance and wheel?

[round plume]

you can still use temperance if you have no jokers

[green sable]

I forgot the joker maker is banned

[green sable]

Cool

I love getting +$0

[formal crystal]

I mean yeah it's useless

[round plume]

makes fool give you temperance

so it could pay off

[formal crystal]

Why would you want that

[round plume]

you get a couple jokers in between temperance and the fool

[green sable]

Emperor making temperance + WoF

[round plume]

like yeah using temperance with no jokers is rarely a play

but it can be done

[green sable]

Its fortune teller synergy

[formal crystal]

Weren't we talking about jokerless?

[round plume]

i thought you meant you couldn't use temperance with no jokers like with wof

but i think you meant those 2 are banned

[formal crystal]

They aren't banned

They should be though

[green sable]

After ante 8

In jokerless endless you can but jokers

[gritty pine]

Do we report 1.0.1c bugs in this thread? Challenge 20 has the forced buffoon pack show up even though it is banned, this worsens the early shop and presents a rare opportunity to get a negative joker.

[formal crystal]

Yeah

I believe that's known

Though restarting jokerless for a good negative sounds funny

[long breach]

Challenges are a can of worm by themselves lol, patch change/balance may or may not break some of them unintentionally

[eager yoke]

new yorick is VERY good

[floral cedar]

lets hope I get a lucky hand

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I didnt draw a 10 till like halfway through the deck

[midnight musk]

Bruh

[jolly pawn]

it wasn't base edition

[midnight musk]

I understand, still painful though

[spring juniper]

Swashbuckler is A tier now, it's just abstract but synergizes with egg and gift card way more

[forest bloom]

the bad ending

[rare elm]

the good ending if you were on gold stake (easy sticker)

[vast frost]

(very clearly orange coloured stake in the corner)

[floral cedar]

how dare you ruin the emersion

[summer pine]

immergent gameplay

[eager yoke]

in terms of obtaining planets, id say the new blue seals are better than telescope, since telescope only gives your highest played poker hand, not necessarily the one you want (ie, it might be full house instead of flush house)

[summer pine]

yeah telescope felt not great before but now it's like really underwhelming

I think it could be interesting if it generated a copy of the most played similar to hallucination joker

or even exactly like it with 1/2 chance

[foggy mantle]

Telescope is generally more reliable imo

[eager yoke]

telescope is def reliable, but even just having a few blue seals gives so much value

[coarse fable]

Absolutely loving the new skip mechanic: I just got a free negative campfire from combining a negative tag with a rare tag.

[jolly pawn]

this isn't right

[floral cedar]

nah thats normal

[jolly pawn]

is this a bug in regular or is this an experimental thing

no that card isnt meant to be there

[spiral comet]

yea that's normal, happened to me before

[floral cedar]

I think its the bug with licking cards to fast

[jolly pawn]

why are you licking the cards

[spiral comet]

licking? 🤨

[floral cedar]

you heard me

(add a c to the beginning)

[spiral comet]

what is a "cthe beginning"?

[vast frost]

You don't know what cthe beginning is?

Anyone who's anyone knows what cthe beginning is

[astral kayak]

QOL wise I wish there was a way to organize the jokers in the collection by rarity or chips/mult/utility or something

[fervent beacon]

Very funny

[astral kayak]

there's 150 of them and it's kinda annoying to search for them when there's no sense to the order

[coarse fable]

Money's on sale

[static wyvern]

Guys, don't you think it's a bit cheesy to get gold stickers on 20+ jokers per run with Analgyph deck + negative tag?

Since the tag was buffed to make joker free, you can farm like 20 free negative jokers per shop

that's kinda crazy

[hexed scarab]

im not complaining

[lament mortar]

I wouldn’t call it cheese since it’s not exactly easy, you still gotta build a gold-stake winning deck, never skip until you see a negative tag, hope the seed has a negative tag in the first place, and hope the jokers it spawns aren’t rentals that tank your Econ

[wide grove]

ok we are back

orange stake @ ghost

[coarse fable]

I think I might be set on this pair run

[floral cedar]

yooooo

cookin

[coarse fable]

Honestly I kind of hate the madness update though. Losing out on an extra 0.5 scaling per ante is somewhat huge

[spare shuttle]

same

[floral cedar]

I didnt even use madness

[spare shuttle]

my biggest issue with the update 🥲

[floral cedar]

its pretty bad

[coarse fable]

Overall enjoying the updated orange stake. I am playing on black deck right now so it's still its own version of hell, but perishable is a fun mechanic. It feels a lot more rewarding to get stuff working, rather than lucky

[floral cedar]

same

though I didnt play to much

[formal crystal]

Lucky two pair build

[floral cedar]

niceee

[formal crystal]

The buffs to lucky card are making me feel that magician is one of the best tarots

Like obviously after hermit and temperance and emperor and fool

[floral cedar]

Magicians buff is so good, but even then I NEVER see lucky cat

Maybe you need like 5 lucky cards to see it or smthin

[formal crystal]

I think its still only one, and also its an uncommon

The buffs make it not complete garbage which is nice

[floral cedar]

Ig, but I think Ive only seen it like 3 times which is wild

especially since Ive been choosing lucky card early game for gambling

[rain forum]

Vampire nerf hurts so bad

[summer pine]

idk if this is just me but i feel like it should show this bubble above or something so it's not offscreen partially

[latent lintel]

from youtube what seems to happen is that it gets eaten first but still disables for a frame

[wide grove]

triboulet - still very very good

Ghost Deck Gold Stake ✅

on to zodiac

[autumn egret]

nice!!!!!! keep it up!!!

[regal raft]

@frail belfryhey hey, this coupom for 10$ for changing boss curse is not fair, you must pay first 10$ and 2nd time 10$ if you want use this coupon to changing boss curse, it should be for free i think 🙂

this coupon, sorry in Polish language

[somber lava]

$20 for potentially saving your run from ending

fair price tbh

[regal raft]

but not in early and mid game

20$ is a lot of money

and if you want to use this coupon you must have always 10$ in wallet

[formal crystal]

Its a decently strong coupon already, mainly as insurance for late game

It'd be broken if it cost 0 to use as that would essentially eliminate all the risk of bosses for little

I do think the upgraded voucher needs a buff though

[regal raft]

better is legendary joker that cancel all negatives from bossess

but the chance to get him is around 0 zero

hehe

ya i know 3% or something like that

or even less

[shy lance]

the voucher is way better. Chicot wastes a joker space. Unless I'm about to go up against a boss that is a pain the moment I get Chicot, right into the sell pile Chicot goes because Chicot's absolutely not worth keeping around otherwise. Easily the lowest ranked legendary joker for me after the Yorick buff.

The vast majority of bosses don't cause significant problems, and another joker slot with a joker that does something is worth way more than not dealing with the minor inconvenience of most of the bosses.

The voucher costs some money sure, but a decent money joker or collecting interest will cover that in general.

[regal raft]

ya but this joker chicot is good for ante 7 and 8, and ya it eat a one slot jokers but can save you and be a gamechanger if you have weak jokers in late game

it depends like all in this game

[dim parcel]

Retcon is one of the best endless vouchers when there are multiple threats or you need to reroll for serpent, I think it's perfectly fine

And obviously directors cut is a very very good voucher that doesn't need a buff but we all know that

[summer pine]

I think it would be nice quality of life if there were a button in the shop that directly showed the upcoming blinds instead of having to go through 2 menu buttons to view it, as I notice I (and many other folks I've talked to) forget to check a lot of the time

[somber echo]

Would thunk consider removing the possibility of getting perishable scaling jokers like how perishable jokers can't be eternal

[rare elm]

You only get max 7 double tags if negative tag is somehow in ante 8,so that's max 8 negatives (hiero and petro will give 2 extra but not that often).
Tho overall it is cheesy, that's how the deck works, you do need to survive gold stake starting with no deck benefits, while the negatives will drop on random jokers, they might not even be useful or need a sticker. The other thing, I don't think C++ needs to be even more annoying

[lament mortar]

You need both really good seed luck, and really good skill to make it through gold stake without using the decks main gimmick, if you can get both in one you should honestly be rewarded with the negatives+stamps imo

[night basin]

I really think The free negative joker tag should go. It's making anaglyph deck overpowered. the free rare/uncommon joker tag is great. (Often you don't get the joker you want anyway) but the free negative + double tag(s) is too strong imo

[frail bison]

joker sticker farming on the new patch goes hard

[winged aurora]

Agree with this take on negative jokers and anaglyph. It’s not OP if there’s so many variables to take advantage of it. It’s fun when it happens, games should be fun.

[pastel gulch]

9/10 times the neg joker you get is ass/irrelevant to your build anyway

you skip a shop and a round of interest/hand payout which is insanely valuable

now you can strategically skip for neg tag and use it to scale stuff like abstract, temperance rather than either getting a bad joker or a good joker you cant afford

i had an anaglyph run pre experimental and bought 14 negative jokers from the shop, it literally killed my run next blind cos my econ died and the jokers provided nothing of value

[long breach]

Balatro University said it best - the guaranteed Buffon Pack is a trap on high stake

ngl, the Perishable / Rental stickers are nice as a challenge, but perhaps they could use a little bit more balance than sharing the same 30% spawn rate with Eternal

[steep spruce]

wait why?

[astral kayak]

the more i play w rental the less that i like it, because it can show up in buffoon packs you can get it without the benefit of it costing one dollar so it makes an annoyingly high amount of your jokers dead, and it genuinely kills 9% of the joker pool due to the rental eternal combo

[modern kiln]

I agree tbfh. Perishable is cool but Rentals is a step too far, it makes Jokers almost feel not worth while and means some runs just die because you were forced to take an early rental, killing any hopes of getting interest up

[raven vapor]

that needs some context
on paper it strictly increases winrate, by a lot even

[long breach]

With Eternal / Perishable / Rental enabled in packs, you run a much higher chance of getting something you don't want from Packs, compared to what's shown in the shop. Consider a normal shop with 2 Jokers and a Buffon Pack. Your option includes:
-Spend $4 for 2 Jokers, with the possibility of getting stickers completely unknown until you open it.
-Spend $5 to reroll for possibly 2 new Jokers, but you get to see their stickers right away.

TL;DR: You gamble in both case, but one of them has a slightly better odd to give you Jokers without stickers.

[raven vapor]

and he completely ignores the fact that pack gives you the joker for free?

[long breach]

umm, no? You still spend $4 to open the pack. Unless you get a Rare that can be sold back for $5

plus, someone mentioned it above, if you run into Rental Jokers, you don't get rebate

[raven vapor]

when you spend $5 to roll you still need to spend more cash to buy the jokers you see

rental still sells for $1

[long breach]

anyways, it seems Perishable's rate is messed up, resulting in a much higher chance to show up lol

to quote a Steam forum discussion:

1. Generate a "random" number between 0 and 1. If it's greater than 0.7 (30% chance), the joker is eternal.
2. If a joker is not eternal, then generate a new random number between 0 and 1. Divide by 0.7, and check if that value is above 0.7 (51% chance), the joker is perishable. This is conditional on *not* being eternal, resulting in a 0.7*0.51 = 35.7% chance the joker is perishable, and a 34.3% chance of being neither eternal nor perishable.
3. After all that, generate a new random number between 0 and 1. If it's greater than 0.7 (30% chance), then the joker is a rental. This stacks with eternal, perishable, and normal jokers.

Final odds:
No modifiers: 0.343*0.7 = 24.01%
Only rental: 0.343*0.3 = 10.29%
Only eternal: 0.3*0.7 = 21%
Eternal and rental: 0.3*0.3 = 9%
Only perishable: 0.357*0.7 = 24.99%
Perishable and rental: 0.357*0.3 = 10.71%```

[raven vapor]

that has no effect on the discussion because both pack and shop reroll use the same random draws actually if it's fixed that makes packs even better than they already are

and shop reroll is only 10/7 jokers instead of guaranteed 2 jokers

calling madness change a buff might've been a stretch, but calling pack worse than a $5 reroll is just blatantly wrong

[broken needle]

Can confirm this is how the code does it, OP looks right here

Keep in mind that if a joker isn’t compatible with eternal, the perishable odds use the full 51% chance

[raven vapor]

yikes
good thing that's a relatively short list with few jokers you want to keep around long term i guess?

like luchador bones only?

[broken needle]

It’s pretty much just jokers that are consumed

Things like Gros Michel and Ice Cream too

I think there’s like 10-15 iirc

[raven vapor]

eh banan is kinda whatever

yeah but we don't care about say perishable cola or popcorn lol

[broken needle]

Just checked there’s 11

All ones that hinge on being consumed or sold

[raven vapor]

and somehow egg isn't in that list :p

[broken needle]

Swashbuckler synergy :O

[raven vapor]

temperance value pog

[plain plover]

if you reroll the first shop you will not have the money to buy anything but rentals

[dusk hinge]

I'm also not sure I understand the rationale here. When paying for reroll or for a buffoon pack, the jokers and stickers you'll get are unknown before paying in both cases. There are two main differences: with packs you won't pay additional money to get the joker and you always get 2 jokers (no planet, no tarot)

I think it can be a trap because it might feel like this is the safe and correct solution when this is not always true. Starting buffoon pack incentivizes spending money on the first shop, and it's often something you actually don't want

[broken needle]

The general high-level strategy is to do ante 1 mostly jokerless in order to save up for interest

And it’s incentivized further with limited money on higher stakes

[raven vapor]

meh, still taking any scoring joker in shop 1 just for future proofing
otherwise possible loss to 1000, i'll just call the -$1 interest on ante 1 bb insurance

[faint rain]

just realized the patch updates mad and clever joker but not the family; i think would be useful if we also see e.g. a x2.5 for two pair

[rare elm]

there's already the duo

I don't think we need a two pair Xmult joker

[plain plover]

you could say the same about four of a kind

duo and trio both work on that

[autumn quiver]

I'd say Family is a strong one, but only reliable after some deck manipulation (or that one good Erratic roll with a billion cards of the same rank )

yea, it needs no rework

[fleet thorn]

guys remember to sell disabled jokers immediately on payout screen if you don't care about temperance and just want it back 😿

[rare elm]

Two pair & full house already have a joker - pants. If you want two pair Xmult joker, then it would need to be X2, X2.5 makes it stronger than The Tribe, we would need to buff Tribe to X2.5 which makes The Order X3 look even worse

[autumn quiver]

then again, if X2 is reasonable for two pair, Duo has already done the same job

[rare elm]

My point exactly

I think that's why thunk didn't add a two pair Xmult

[autumn quiver]

I mean, those are specific jokers that you need to win a run without using respective ones to unlock

[rare elm]

cuz we had this discussion that there's no full house / two pair joker

[plain plover]

two pair/full house has way less going for it than five of a kind

[rare elm]

and he added pants after that

[plain plover]

5oak is optimal for any rank-specific joker effects

which is a lot of jokers

[autumn quiver]

this defeats the purpose of having 5oak XMult because 5oak is a secret poker hand smh
in most runs you don't even have to reveal it

[long breach]

are we going to ask for xMult Joker for every single hand in the game lol

[rare elm]

Eh, not rly, you can still fit a few odd/even/face cards in your hand, making the jokers work. You could also argue full house / two pair are optimal for rank specific joker effects

the only outcast there would be straight/straight flush

[plain plover]

if im doing a scholar build the only reason to go for full houses is if i havent done enough deck manipulation to reliably get 5oak aces

[rare elm]

but that's why they have better jokers and planets

[long breach]

Straight is the only one hand to have a scaling Joker dedicated to it. Technically Two Pairs have Pants, but you can scale with Full/Flush House, so...

[plain plover]

pants is the only reason to build into two pair/full house aside from like, taking an early orbital tag

[rare elm]

square exists

[plain plover]

square works fine with high card or pair

[long breach]

Square / Green / Bus = any hands work

with condition like 4 card, no Face Cards, etc

[rare elm]

Ig

[fleet thorn]

is this invisible joker anything at all

i guess i can nuke sly joker

ah, it duped a 2 rounds remaining burnt joker

oh well, more high card levels

[long breach]

yeah, just a smol oversight on chance calulating

Again, quoting Steam forum post

Ah, I see where localthunk's mistake is. For 2 mutually exclusive 30% chances, if one doesn't happen then the conditional probability of the other one happening is 30%/70% or 3/7. Dividing by 0.7 makes no sense there. If he multiplied by 0.7 and checked for whether it's above 0.4, it'd result in the correct probability.

[mortal sedge]

You could also just generate a number and check if it's in one of two equally sized ranges. Like, between 0 to 0.3 is eternal, between 0.3 and 0.6 is perishable. I don't have deep knowledge about optimization stuff so idk if doing it as pure math is more efficient, but just logic-wise that seems like a more easily navigable way to do it

[hardy rock]

I mean it could pick from a table of 'normal, perishable, eternal, rental' at 10, 30,30,30% odds, and 'if it rolls perishable, eternal or rental, rolls a 30% check to see if it will roll rental or not, unless rental and then it rolls between perishable and eternal.

but in this formulation, despite being mathematically consistent with the odds given in the patchnotes, it would be much rouger on the player

I think the way its coded is fine, honestly? its purely beneficial compared to a layman's read, though perishable is the worst effect.

[long breach]

yeah the current code works as intended, it's just the way it's laid out and smol calculation error = higher Perishable rate than intended

[hardy rock]

but only by 5%, and its normal odds have more than doubled

you get +10% chance at a normal, and '-'5 % chance at a persishable

which is net positive

[mortal sedge]

oh, my b, I guess I misinterpreted it as being a bug/oversight

[hardy rock]

i mean i guess he could buff normal odds even harder by 'fixing' the issue but the game is probably too forgiving at gold stake if anything (though i'm very happy with it, i think its in a good spot)

[mortal sedge]

Is it? damn, lol. I'm still trying to beat the new orange stake. (I beat the previous gold stake, with ghost deck, but I'm using a different deck now)

Actually, idk, for some reason I chose plasma deck as my target for my second gold stake clear. Was that a bad idea?

[long breach]

Stickered Jokers are indeed a lot more frequently now

when people see "30%", they kinda expect 3 out of 10 Jokers to be "clean" one

but with the current pool, it's closer to 2 out of 10, making it hard to find clean Jokers early on

[hardy rock]

well, he said 30% at eternal, then added 2 new 30%s of perishable and rental. Logically you'd expect normal odds to be at 10%

I get it though, 10% would be maybe too annoying, and if anything peoples intuitionj would be an even split

so 25%, 25%, 25% 25%

but 🤷

[long breach]

I still think applying Stickers to buffon pack could tune down a bit

like maybe only 2 out of 3 type

[mortal sedge]

It almost makes me wish there was some way to pay some price to turn a joker into a "clean" one. (Or, to make it more generally applicable, perhaps it could also "refresh" a joker that degrades, like ice cream, ramen, etc)

[long breach]

Hitting a Rental after spending $4 on the pack removes the perk of the sticker

[hardy rock]

buffoons gauranteeing one normal or something would be a interseting buff, probably.

[twilit dune]

if buffoon pack had a 50% sticker chance compared to normal that would be nice
since iirc they have 2x edjtion chance

[hardy rock]

idk if we need it but yah that would be a way if goldstake was too hard

[long breach]

IMO at least Rental shouldn't be in Packs since you don't get the benefit of $1 upfront

[shell sparrow]

I just want the guaranteed shop 1 pack to have no stickers, I think that would work fine

[mortal sedge]

"gold+ stake", unlocked after gold stake and not tied to any achievements or unlocks, and all it does is remove the ability to clean jokers, lmao.

[somber lava]

only playing cards from Standard Pack

[mortal sedge]

what's the deal with standard packs anyway? sometimes it feels like every card on offer is upgraded in every possible way, but sometimes I get packs with three completely plain cards, and it feels like there's no middle ground. Am I just hitting absurd odds, or maybe experiencing some kind of perception bias?

I mean, sounds like standard pack has higher odds of edition buffs

[rare finch]

im not sure if its related to the beta but i managed to crash the game

nothing to do with scoring i just opened a celestial pack and started a blind at the same time

[twilit dune]

if standard packs only had 2x as many editions as jokers that would surprise me
it feels like 4x

[somber lava]

just unlucky

not absurd odds but unlucky enough

[shell sparrow]

I mean, they have more total cards than Buffoon and are also influenced by Hone/Glow Up so that could be it?

But also Jokers have Negative and Playing Cards don’t

[summer pine]

wait standard packs are affected by hone/glowup?

I thought the voucher specifically states "jokers"

[shell sparrow]

Yes, they’re effected by hone/glowup, no, they don’t say “jokers”

It says “cards”

[rare elm]

that's how editions etc. work already

weird that eternal/perishable don't use this logic

[shell sparrow]

So are Illusion cards

[summer pine]

neat

[shell sparrow]

Actually kinda useful for Jokerless

And just about nothing else (Magic Trick is trash)

[rare elm]

eh, I dont think illusion is useful in jokerless

[shell sparrow]

Illusion + Hone is useful, but it’s really hard to get

[rare elm]

if you somehow get magic trick early you need to gamble that illusion shows up early, then you need to gamble that illusion gives you something actually useful, because magic trick already lowers chances for tarots & planets to show up

no matter the build I'd rather have planets and tarots show up more in jokerless

[summer pine]

illusion just seems kinda bad

magic trick is niche, but illusion requires you to already have found and thought to purchase magic trick

feels like most of the time I wanna add cards to my deck is for hologram or if I'm desperately hunting for a specific rank

[twilit dune]

if it wasnt the second level to the worst voucher in the game illhsion seems like it would be all right

[summer pine]

and there are way more reliable ways to do the latter, meanwhile the former doesn't care so much about the editions

[twilit dune]

im very surprised it wasn't changed in the patch
it was one of my top guesses for changing effects

[summer pine]

when I first saw magic trick I assumed cards could appear with editions and enhancements just like jokers or standard packs

so to see that locked behind a whole other voucher I was like "wait wut"

[twilit dune]

i did too because them not having it makes the voucher pretty garbage

[summer pine]

I think illusion could be like "playing cards can generate as negative" and give us the wacky +handsize stuff

[rare elm]

negative cards are bad

[summer pine]

even if they can't be duped?

or you just mean not strong

[rare elm]

Eh, I think it makes baron build even more broken than it already is

which I don't think this game needs

[summer pine]

My thinking is that there's no way to get more negatives by like Death card or whatever, since the no duping negatives concept was established, so it'd be hard to find specifically your kings for that kinda stuff

but there'd no longer be the downside of bloating your deck with random playing cards if they just stay in your hand

and since its an edition you could still put like gold or steel on them to be pretty good

[rare elm]

strength exists

[summer pine]

okay fair

but still, that's a lot of strengths and perkeo for cryptid is way more braindead

[rare elm]

but like, steel is also an extra baron

[twilit dune]

i mean
unless you pull a queen you need a lot of strength

[rare elm]

with enough mimes & red seal

[twilit dune]

this is also an endless thing so its not clear it matters that much

[summer pine]

I guess I see more potential and not so much contribution to this ultimate high score build that people are already gonna gun for

yeah

[twilit dune]

negative cards behind a second level voucher sounds very hard to make use of in most runs

[summer pine]

I think it'd also, being on the following voucher, help justify the "make playing cards appear" thing by letting them not hurt your deck as much

[summer pine]

I think that's probably still true

so maybe not the buff Illusion needs

but I still like the negative playing cards concept

I was thinking that Aura could be buffed to hit two cards actually

[twilit dune]

it sounds sorta fun without duping and broken beyond belief with it

[summer pine]

and idk if a spectral should hit a targeted card with negative but there oughta be some way to find negative playing cards, just to satisfy a sense of completion

[twilit dune]

you need 1 chariot and you're off to the races

[summer pine]

right, I was so glad thunk established no duping negatives because if that wasn't a thing this really would be inconceivable

[spiral comet]

considering standard packs exist aura might need to be buffed. maybe idk

[summer pine]

that's my thinking

making 2 cards foil most of the time isnt' that much stronger than a hierophant after all

[spiral comet]

before they existed edition on cards were pretty rare

[twilit dune]

aura definitely feels bad rn yeah

[rare elm]

people were pretty emotional when duping negatives was removed (during the demo), lol

[summer pine]

hahah this is true

[spiral comet]

i mean i was sad too

but it makes sense

[summer pine]

some silly combos lost but yeah ultimately healthy for the game

[rare elm]

it makes much more sense in full game cuz ankh on eternals

[summer pine]

those combos are only fun the first time you see em

yeah

[spiral comet]

perkeo ankh would be broken

[rare elm]

yup

[summer pine]

absolutely beyond measure

but yeah my suggestion is to merge illusion into magic trick, then make illusion either let negatives appear (in standard packs too, or possibly even synergize with Aura), or perhaps do more and just let negatives be a passive thing in the game. Worst case illusion could make more playing cards appear tho idk if that'd be an "upgrade"

[rare elm]

illusion could simply increase playing cards rate, yeah

[summer pine]

seems like the safe fallback option, just like the tarot or planet ones

I appreciate the attempt at doing something more interesting than that with the original design though

[rare elm]

maybeeee Illusion: cards in shop always have enhancement, edition or seal

[summer pine]

mmmmmmm

That could legit be worth, your vampire is back

and I assume that'd apply to standards too

[rare elm]

eh, could be a bit too op for standard packs lol

in shops its kinda balanced cuz rate is pretty low

[summer pine]

maybe, idk sometimes it feels like standard packs already have stacked bonuses lol

plus it only guarantees 1 not all 3

i just want negative playing cards my brain wants the pattern to be complete

[frosty pilot]

the good ending, it sells instead of deletes

[mortal sedge]

It's not that much stronger, but on the other hand... a card can have both :O
but yeah I think its main strength is the fact that it offers that bonus as an extra effect on top of the card's enhancement.
That said, I'd definitely be happy to see an Aura buff, because it's the only way to give existing playing cards an edition

[mortal sedge]

yeah, agreed. I think Magic Trick and Illusion should be merged, and I'd definitely prefer to see Illusion doing something interesting and new rather than simply increasing the shop rate. Frankly, it doesn't even NEED to be a shop-specific effect, although I'm unsure about what it could be.

atm, Magic Trick and Illusion feel comparable to Blank and Antimatter, in the sense that Illusion is essentially your "reward" for taking Magic Trick, except instead of doing nothing like Blank, Magic Trick makes your shops kinda worse, and Illusion just makes Magic Trick not a complete downgrade

[shell sparrow]

Hear me out, make Magic Trick only show cards in your deck and Illusion additionally guarentee an Edition, Enhancement, or Seal

Like with magic trick also being able to take Enhancement/Edition/Seal from the card in your deck as well

[mortal sedge]

oh, I think I see what you're saying

well, I'd change it just slightly from your idea

make Magic Trick be "The shop can now sell copies of playing cards in your deck", (preserves upgrades)
and make Illusion be "The shop can now sell copies of playing cards in your deck with an additional Enhancement/Edition/Seal" (preserves upgrades and adds another to it)

[shell sparrow]

Yeah that’s what I meant

I get it would be nuts for endless (steel kings copied for $1 ) but also who cares, Perkeo will do the thing anyways

[twilit dune]

you usually dont have enough good cards in your deck for that to be worth it
tho ig with like erratic its pretty nice

[mortal sedge]

I definitely think that'd be interesting. It's like Death but you're still increasing your deck size

[shell sparrow]

But you can thin it down to raise the chances of, let’s say, a Red Seal Steel appearing again

And with the added red seal steel, you would have 2 chances for it to choose that red seal steel (like idol but with enhancements and whatnot taken into account)

[mortal sedge]

True, the odds would be pretty low of it hitting something actually desirable. Hmm. I don't think it's THAT bad, though? Synergy with the "increased card slots" vouchers, and you can reroll to try and find a good card.

[shell sparrow]

And then it could snowball with the proper amount of thinning

[mortal sedge]

Or you just don't do the proper amount of thinning and go full zany mode (and maybe lose, but in a fun way?)

[summer pine]

Mmmm, I'm not sure how I feel about this

it feels more desirable than current magic trick probably, but also there's a ton of cards you want to remove that you'd still be seeing, and then by the point you're actually rid of them, then this voucher doesn't matter anymore

because you're drawing your desired cards now already

Now here's an option, Illusion voucher adds a "card remove" option to the shop

still draws a hand, which could be valuable in itself for using your tarots, and you only remove 1 per shop unlike hanged man

or maybe more idk balance

[mortal sedge]

not a groundbreaking idea (compared to other deckbuilder games) but it would obviously be useful, yeah.

hard to argue with that

biggest downside is that you're talking about an upgraded voucher that requires another one to be purchased first (and then requires you to RNG into this one)

[summer pine]

plus idk the "illusion" of making your cards disappear seems kinda flairy

[summer pine]

Yeah that's true

maybe that's just the implicitly hardest part about designing illusion

[mortal sedge]

frankly I want that as a base voucher

[summer pine]

yeah

[shell sparrow]

Hold on, I just had an idea

[mortal sedge]

buckle up

[shell sparrow]

Make Illusion make Negative cards that delete themselves and any of the same card (rank/suit)

[astral kayak]

the cards from magic trick should be free tbh

[shell sparrow]

As flair

[mortal sedge]

sounds a lot like a meme idea I had a second ago lol

basically antimatter cards
gives +1 hand size while in hand, but if played with another card of the same rank, both are removed from your deck

[astral kayak]

at minimum

[summer pine]

followup idea: make Illusion create a shop option that applies negative instead of removing cards

still can't be duped but per shop, that's more reliable negative production

and doesn't step on MT's toes

[shell sparrow]

Magic Trick lets those in your deck show up (sans editions), Illusion lets Magic Trick have editions that are completely new. Including higher odds for Negative, which would be the removal thing I said.

[mortal sedge]

so, on the topic of negative edition applied to playing cards, I think the idea is logical and somewhat intuitive (it doesn't give off "how would that work?" vibes), but on the other hand, I don't think they should actually have special effects like card removal

[summer pine]

I think the antimatter destruction mechanic might be a little overdesigned

[mortal sedge]

that's a good way to put it, "overdesigned"

[summer pine]

the other instances of "negative" cards are simpler

[shell sparrow]

Since this isn’t specifically to do with the experimental thing, I made a Suggestions Post about MT/Illusion

[modern kiln]

Finally beat gold stake on Experimental - the negative jokers only came on ante 7 and were by and large overkill. Turns out Certificate making blue seals that generate pluto is really damn good, specially when you can convert them into campfire fuel

[tiny grail]

oh hello DoomZero

[mortal sedge]

👋

[modern kiln]

Yo hello DoomZero, hi from the yugioh discords lmao

[eager yoke]

platinun stake: gold stake + -1 hand size + packs cost more per ante + suffering

[jolly pawn]

they're looking for you in https://discord.com/channels/1116389027176787968/1187936299655647313 aren't you supposed to be there

[rare elm]

Not sure if anyone already reported, but seems like juggler still works on expired perishable jokers https://youtu.be/1C7fDzdvunQ?si=oLkHNSlE0K8K1uud - around 50 mins you can see hand size is still 9 with expired juggler

[lament mortar]

I feel a little nauseous suddenly…

[hollow cloud]

he watches

[autumn quiver]

half joker back side fix when

photograph is acceptable tho

both are squished still

[hollow cloud]

THE NEGATIVE CAVENDISH IS REAL!!!!!!!!!

https://tenor.com/view/one-piece-chopper-chopper-one-piece-crying-crying-meme-gif-26577246

[modern kiln]

sobbing rn

[hollow cloud]

lmaoooo

hey,its a lot of money

itll carry you for a bit,at the very least

[modern kiln]

tru

Does the sell value stay..?

[hollow cloud]

ye should stay

[modern kiln]

update: it did stay

[shy lance]

thanks for the update. It's a test case I haven't been able to test yet, so I wasn't sure if it would stay or not.

Arguably the increased value is part of the ability of the joker, so I could've seen it going either way when the joker was debuffed. I had assumed the value would stay though because I assumed the way the mechanics work it just adds to the base value and the debuff would just remove the ability to add value at the end of round anymore.

[modern kiln]

It both stays and I lose the polychrome effect (altho it's visually still there)

[hollow cloud]

the guaranteed buffoon pack has made zodiac deck soooo much more fun to play

this might be my best run ever maybe

and it seems its only getting better

[pearl bramble]

There's an option to check the blinds/boss for the next ante, after you beat the boss, right?

[hollow cloud]

yeah just head to run info

[pearl bramble]

I'm not seeing it but idk if I'm missing it

Oooooo there it is

Thank you. Wow. It shows the entire next ante too, this is great

[modern kiln]

Wish me luck chat

[faint rain]

break a leg

[modern kiln]

It beat it 🔥

ty

Second gold stake win on experimental

[hollow cloud]

yup guaranteed black board

9.75x lucky cat bottom text

[faint rain]

when the joker is perishable but the pain is eternal

[hollow cloud]

hey this hand is also lucky clubs aces nice

mine have red seals though 🙂

[faint rain]

i cropped that from your image lol

it looks like a scream

[hollow cloud]

ohhh lmao its my decklist

[faint rain]

yes

[hollow cloud]

i didnt see what you were actually replying to

also hey onyx agate is back

i had sold it for the spritzer so great to have it back on an upgrade

O H

i think

[faint rain]

he's back in the ♣️

[hollow cloud]

its time to get rid of driver's license

[faint rain]

ok thats definitely the play

now to make the entire deck ace of clubs

[hollow cloud]

almost there

[faint rain]

lucky cat hay day

[hollow cloud]

i wanted a lucky cat run for so long,and now its so good....ah.thank u 1.0.1 balatro (experimental)

but uh the immediate next idol was 8 of spades so i lost rip

[faint rain]

worth a shot tho

[hollow cloud]

next on my quest to red stake every deck: painted deck

and then i finally get to expeience anaglyph deck my beloved with the joker tag buffs

[faint rain]

paint the deck red

[hollow cloud]

(i have been in love with anaglyph since the second demo)

[faint rain]

i cant wait to try anaglyph with the new tags

[hollow cloud]

this

mmmmmm

this sounds bad considering how hard vampire got nerfed

but...i might as well give it a shot

got it early enough for it

[faint rain]

will it bite

tbh early vampire means opening every arcana pack

and spectral

(sometimes standard)

[hollow cloud]

well not spectral necessarily since those dont count as enhancements

but uh yeah standard packs

[faint rain]

incantation works wonders with vampire

well, more so then than now

[hollow cloud]

oh right there's that

[summer pine]

I think you could get away with either but you run the risk of not finding help early enough with vamp

I would prolly still take vamp here tho

[faint rain]

hope for a midas mask and rinse and repeat that shiiiiiet

[hollow cloud]

i got credit card

[summer pine]

that helps

[hollow cloud]

i could take the two enhancements.....or i could get two random tarots...

[faint rain]

how much money do you have rn

[hollow cloud]

-9

[faint rain]

then fool I'd say

[hollow cloud]

ill take the guaranteed magician

[faint rain]

bc i was to gamble hermit with emperor but

that wasnt it

[hollow cloud]

ight

[summer pine]

this is really funny because the whole idea of money is that it "could be anything" -- but that it will be anything you need it to be when you spend it

the mystery box makes no such promise

[hollow cloud]

alright i think i win,maybe?

and uh yeah im doing well with vampire,currently at 1.7

[summer pine]

I think get your money back online and then keep feeding the vamp

[hollow cloud]

yeah

doing just that

[faint rain]

while slowly trying to find a replacement for chaos

[hollow cloud]

already found one in swashbuckler

oop got a fourth holographic tag

also got foil on my vampire and its currently at 2.6

uhhh not the best but

could be worse?

[faint rain]

yeah

nb

[hollow cloud]

also it gets me a win with popcorn so.sure.

[faint rain]

gonna sleep it's 2.30am

break a leg

!!!!!!

[modern kiln]

There's a very strong argument that the Vampire nerf was genuinely not enough

[eager yoke]

will progress in the beta patch transfer to the normal version?

[modern kiln]

Is there a way to save this run?

[modern kiln]

yes

[summer pine]

that's an easy cavendish

idk what throwback is at

[hollow cloud]

can confirm uh yeah still strong

[modern kiln]

I wouldn't call it an "easy" cavendish

[summer pine]

What are you scoring rn

[modern kiln]

Throwback is at 2.5x right now (would become 3.5x) when boss comes + is foil

With all jokers, a good bit

Lemme check the calculator

[summer pine]

winning in 1 hand or like 3

last ante I mean

[modern kiln]

like 3

[summer pine]

hands good or just high carding

[hollow cloud]

alright time for what i was waiting for:ANAGLYPH DECK WHOOOO

[summer pine]

painted + stuntman is still manageable

[modern kiln]

high carding

[hollow cloud]

yeah i dunno what youre scared of this run seems insane

[summer pine]

cuz I could see cavendish then take the empress or even dig for justice/chariot

[hollow cloud]

like,you can win over multiple hands,yknow

[summer pine]

standard pack for glass could work too

[summer pine]

even with heart disable the cavendish puts you back where you're at now

then from there just play a strong hand

[hollow cloud]

like,blueprint gets debuffed once and youre good

[summer pine]

^

[modern kiln]

This does not just win

What are you selling for cavendish?

[hollow cloud]

hmmmm

[summer pine]

what's stuntman contributing rn

[modern kiln]

Nearly everything

[hollow cloud]

yeah,actually,thinking about it?

i think you sell blueprint for cavendish,and try to find another chip generator?

[eager yoke]

lvl 1 high card is crazy

[summer pine]

Have you leveled any other hands at all

[modern kiln]

Stuntman and Green Joker are unsellable and Cavendish is worse than both blueprint and throwback

[hollow cloud]

cuz like,yeah blueprint is insane but if throwback gets debuffed,you might be fucked

[modern kiln]

No.

[summer pine]

I think you gotta try making some other hands

if they're all base level then that means making them is literally like x4 mult in itself

[modern kiln]

Even if we make a Straight Flush +100 Chips +8 mult isn't enough

[summer pine]

sure but with current jokers

[modern kiln]

That is, very far from the truth lmao

[summer pine]

I don't follow

[modern kiln]

Compared to the mult and chips I get from the Stuntman and Green Joker

[hardy rock]

people saying vampire was overnerfed, 🤔

[modern kiln]

I get chips from Stuntman and mult from Green Joker

[summer pine]

oh right right lol

forgot about green

[hollow cloud]

i am about to skip so many packs

[eager yoke]

how do ppl play w green joker. giving up discards is so hard for me

[hollow cloud]

just play it regularly, dont be as stingy with money since no interst.

[modern kiln]

Not discading at all

[eager yoke]

not green deck, green JOKER

[hollow cloud]

just think of it as you are incentivized to save hands even harder than before

[hollow cloud]

oh lmao

yeah idk

just treat it like ramen but man the scaling is so slooow

[modern kiln]

You never discard and an early green joker takes you to the moon

[eager yoke]

hands that begin low (ie high card, two pair) are not easy for me

[modern kiln]

That's the green joker special

[summer pine]

I think you kinda needa highroll for xmult jokers

[hollow cloud]

honestly what if green joker was sort of like delayed gratification?like the more discards you have the more it scales?

[summer pine]

idk what you could find tho tbh

heart is so rough for painted

[hollow cloud]

oh yeah.its allll coming together.

[modern kiln]

The only thing that got me out of it was a Luchador + judgement

(Which I didn't get)

[hardy rock]

idk tho i farmed vampire for literally since round 3 and only go tit up to 3.6x by the boss. I think the .1x number is slightly too low, even though i was memeing about how its fine

[hollow cloud]

who needs booster pack for their contents anyway,pfft

such a silly idea

[eager yoke]

some of these jokers im not gonna have discovered bc i do not buy them like. some of the shitty +mult jokers

[summer pine]

I had a painted run recently that hit fortuneteller with ecto so it was practically a normal deck with +1 hand size

[modern kiln]

3.6x with no strings attached is still runwinningly strong

[burnt lichen]

what the fuck is a shitty +mult joker? none of them are shitty (well, red card is, but no one cares about him)

[modern kiln]

Late game you want more x mult rather than bigger x mult

[hollow cloud]

also the cool thing with mega arcana packs with red card is that you can take one thing and still skip

[eager yoke]

i mean the string attached is that u cant rly get any enhanced cards (except steel/gold)

[eager yoke]

theyre good early game but fall off hard

[hardy rock]

yah but i played around it the entire run, spent a ton of money on tarot cards just to feed him, donkey'd my hands to make sure to feed him, etc.

and that's only at the very end

[modern kiln]

Lategame they don't really matter, tbfh. +4 mult is rather neglectible and lucky cards are a bit underwhelming

[hardy rock]

it could use .15x i think

[eager yoke]

like the poker hand jokers. i dont remember the names because they all have a bucnh of different names

[formal crystal]

Red card is now not completely useless

[burnt lichen]

and that doesn't make them shitty, it's just a good early game jonkler that's not supposed to be used late

[modern kiln]

You don't need 3x, just getting him to ~2.5x is already enough for most purpouses

The card is fine as is right now. Still a very strong joker, just not overwhelmingly so now

[eager yoke]

im just being hyperbolic about them

[burnt lichen]

understandable

[summer pine]

500x500 = 250,000 which is definitely enough to win, so getting your +60 mult to x3 = 180, you're halfway to beating the game

[hardy rock]

its fine but its not strong enough to deserve rare status

in any way

[summer pine]

different ways to balance out the core formula components but yeah x3 is generally solid

[hardy rock]

its either gotta go to .15x or get out of rare

[modern kiln]

Truthfully rare was its most deserved nerf

It + Baseball Card is out of this world

[formal crystal]

Vampire is still strong, its just not in s tier

[modern kiln]

It was a valiant effort, but rip run

[formal crystal]

I do feel like rare was overkill though

[hardy rock]

i spent like 100$ of money on vampire and he got to 3.6x, its just not strong enough to be bumped into rare at least i think

[hollow cloud]

RANDOM BULLSHIT GO

[modern kiln]

The thing with Vampire is that you're never not taking it

[floral cedar]

Im fine with it being rare, but the fact that its half as good than the previous is wild

[hollow cloud]

what if youre on a lucky cat run

[modern kiln]

Unless your run is either in the dirt or way over the moon, Vampire is almost always a great build

[floral cedar]

Ive skipped past vampire 3 timess

[modern kiln]

If your cat is already at like, 3x then taking Vampire is correct because you want more times mult than bigger times mult

[floral cedar]

though also its painted deck so less joker slots

[hollow cloud]

DONT MIND IF I DO

GAMBLING BAYYY

I LOVE GAMBLING!!!!

[formal crystal]

Why would you ever skip there?

[hardy rock]

i wouldnt touch it unless you're ante 1 or 2, MAYBE 3

at least, from that experience i just had

[hollow cloud]

because:funny random jokers

[formal crystal]

Losing out on scaling red and space joker is not worth

[summer pine]

winning is only good because it's fun

[modern kiln]

Why? Vampire is at its worst ante 1 or 2, you should be taking it ante 6 or 7

[summer pine]

skipping neg is fun

[hardy rock]

but yah in the early antes its still a take

[hollow cloud]

it is because funny

[hardy rock]

you will not feed it if you're only starting to feed it in ante 6

unless you're playing flush and have a ton of recolored things

[hollow cloud]

worth it

[modern kiln]

You only need to feed it 10 cards for it to becomes a unconditional 2x, which is better than a lot a lot of stuff

[hollow cloud]

see

[hardy rock]

also, flush builds value glass cards too much vampire is mostly a 2pair / high card / pair joker

[summer pine]

AYYY

[modern kiln]

out of this world run

[summer pine]

I was about to say "watch you hit blueprint"

[hollow cloud]

i will be sharing the seed once i win

[summer pine]

you roll for third joker?

[hollow cloud]

no im opening packs first

[summer pine]

fair enough

[formal crystal]

Ok nevermind lol

[modern kiln]

I don't know if every flush bluid goes for that tbfh

[hollow cloud]

ah its just jimbo

[eager yoke]

some utility jokers kinda suck on account of taking up a joker slot

[formal crystal]

Do flush builds actually use glass?

[summer pine]

"just" jimbo, you mean the 6th legendary

[hardy rock]

well, i certaintly do

[hollow cloud]

ah well thats still like 7 mult considering i have swashbuckler

[summer pine]

(the card you get when you have the first 5 legendaries)

[hardy rock]

if you dont have on play effects in your flush build, then no

[modern kiln]

If you like gambling and got the sin joker, yeah. Otherwise not much

[hardy rock]

but that's how you play flush

[hollow cloud]

now the question is

do i brainstorm red card

or space joker