Unlock Stakes for every Deck the first time it is Unlocked

[olive totem]

Please god, do not make me play every deck 7 times in order to get to play that deck at the highest difficulty. That will literally Octuple the amount of time I have to grind the lower difficulties of this game. I am generally a good player, and I like high difficulty. I don't want to grind Stakes on every deck. It is unfun, and BRUTALLY punishing. It will actually probably reduce my play time, not increase it, as I will probably when with each deck once or twice and then move on, as apposed to feeling like I get to be challenged to beat the game with each deck on the highest difficulty, and thusly compelled to keep playing till a do it. If I have to win 8 times with each deck, my interest will wane faster and far sooner, than if I get to enjoy working my way up the Stakes with whatever deck, then working my way across each deck while playing at the highest Stakes.

I thought we all agreed that Slay the Spire's Ascension system was unnecessarily taxing in the exact same way like... 5 years ago...

If I grow too bored with the grind, I will probably edit my save to unlock everything, and then that usually kills a lot of my interest after that.

[onyx breach]

You only need to win on the maximum difficulty, not each difficulty. Also, you don’t need to “edit your save” to unlock everything.

[hollow gazelle]

skill issue tbh, balatro is easier than slay the spire because theres not rng affecting stuff like "damage" and you can pretty much play stuff on tempo almost always

I like that you have to play the deck to unlock the next difficulty for it, some decks are way easier than others

it would be ridiculous for me to just play something like the black deck and beat stake 7 and just be able to now beat it on every other deck, that circumvents so much of the replayability

[onyx breach]

That's exactly how it works in game, though.

[hollow gazelle]

not from what ive experienced

i cant play difficulty 3 on decks that i havent beat red stake on

[onyx breach]

Yeah, I was wrong

[main isle]

Agreed

[olive totem]

It's not a test of skill, it's a test of patience. "I love having a game waste my time by forcing me to arbitrarily play it before I get to enjoy the part of it I want to enjoy." Unlocking stuff is an enjoyable part of the game, but I'm not unlocking something new when I have to beat the red difficulty a 10th time. This isn't "Replayability", it's a time sink. If you feel that you need to start on the lowest difficulty and work your way up with each and every deck, then you can choose to do that. I, on the other hand, have to grind through early difficulty levels, even though I have a relatively successful game plan with most of the decks already, and just want to be able to test myself at the highest difficulty.

You know, games come and go. Most of these deck builders have basically infinite replayability, but end the end, after 40-100 hours, it'll obviously get boring for anybody. My wish is that I could spend more of those 40-100 hours playing the game at the highest difficulty level, instead of being forced to spend most of that time grinding at the lowest difficulty level.

There's a small issue with playing at lower difficulties as well: you are playing with a different rule set than the highest difficulty, and thusly, you might develop habits along the way that the last Stake might completely invert into bad habits. Just some things to consider.

[main isle]

Then do unlock all

idk i feel like mr thunk gave us Unlock All for this exact reason

[olive totem]

Lol, if only they had "unlock some". I frankly just want the difficulty unlocked. I like doing little challenges to unlock Jokers and Decks. I even like working my way up an "Ascension-like" system of difficulty. I just don't like having do it for every deck. It's like having to re-unlock something over and over, which feels bad and doesn't really add much.

But I see your point. Maybe I'll press the unlock all button when I'm almost done with the game and wanna go ahead and try to win with each deck.

[olive totem]

The reason I like the challenges is that they encourage me to take on sub-optimal or unintuitive play styles in order to unlock special Jokers and Decks. They are, effectively, a reward for accruing more difficulty. This is juxtaposed with the Stake system, which encourages you to play as consistently as possible in order to unlock the next Stake. These two systems work really well in contrast to each other. The only problem is that the Stakes system being so much more time consuming weights your decisions in favor of not wanting to lose, as getting half-way through a Stake and losing is extremely time-punishing. If it worked the other way, the Stake system would still put pressure on you to play well, while you would sometimes be willing to maybe throw a run here or there to go out of your way to unlock the stray Joker. The two contrary systems would be more in balance. With the Stake system being so dominant (the thought of not unlocking the next Stake will be in EVERY game I play probably for the first 100+ hours), you are forced to play in a more consistent (read: repetitive) way, which ultimately gets more boring more quickly.

[lyric anchor]

also to add to this:
i watched aliensrock's latest balatro stream and at one point he unlocked some new decks and tried to play them but realized that stakes dont unlock for all decks and said that he disliked it

[vagrant basin]

I mean, to me, this seems like a conventional mechanic across the roguelike genre, and that's the case for the simple reason that a lot of roguelike fans enjoy playing the game a lot of times and very gradually increasing difficulty of each starting scenario. From Isaac to StS, to Hades and more, the idea of pushing the difficulty unlocks with each character/deck type gradually is a result of the game's goal of appealing to the average player, and as you've shared here, you're not the average player.

jorbs, of Slay the Spire fame, has spoken many times about how there are some things that he might change about the game that he also fully respects shouldn't be changed, because most players aren't playing at ascension 20 so proficiently, and so the design that makes the game fun for the most people might leave those at the skill fringes a bit wanting, and that's normal. So, as someone who's not nearly as good as it sounds like you are at the game, I quite like how the unlocks go because it feels like they're unveiling at the pace I'm improving, more or less.

As has been mentioned, the Unlock All option is present at least so you can play at your chosen difficulty from the start, and I acknowledge that maybe isn't ideal for your play experience, but I think that changing the target audience of the game to those who are already very good at it wouldn't make the most sense from a developer's perspective.

[normal frigate]

I really actually enjoy having myself work my way up to the max stake

[olive totem]

I totally respect this comment, and the last thing I want is to make the game OMG DARK SOULS EXTRA HARD LOL UWU. I just think that the Stakes should be treated like every other unlock: You unlock it once, and it's unlocked. I don't think Red Deck Green Stakes, should be it's own individual unlock. I also don't think that the lower skilled player is losing anything from this change. I severally doubt that if my way of doing things was implemented, that you would come into the Suggestions thread and say "The Stakes are too available to me as a new player. I'm struggling a lot with this particular deck, but I can compel myself to play that deck at a lower Stake in order to develop my skills with this deck, as Stake 4 is already unlocked and playing at a lower difficulty is just unfun for me." Literally, you can play at a lower difficulty, but I can't choose to play at a higher difficulty without clicking the cheater button and breaking one of the core elements of the game: doing weird challenges to unlock particular decks and cards. You can literally choose to play each Stake if we do it my way, but I can't choose to skip Stakes if we keep it the way it is. Just something to consider.

Also, I will say this: In Hades, it did NOT work this way. Once you beat the game, you unlocked almost every Heat modifier, and you were given the choice to amplify the difficulty at your own pace and your own way. Also, while StS had the ascension system as is, a lot of new deck builders (Astaria of the 6 Sided comes to mind), have changed the system to make it work my way, mostly due to player feed back. The old way of forcing your to grind through EACH and EVERY Character/deck is NOT normal for the genre in my opinion. It is the old standard that most newer games have rejected. I'm honestly surprised at the pushback, as I figured most people didn't want to grind through the lower difficulties on every deck once they had achieved it on a specific deck.

In general, I think the Hades Heat system is way better. If I could craft the difficulty of each run with particular debuffs, and try to get a higher difficulty number, that would be amazing to me. Unfortunately that is not adopted by most games and Hades is basically the only good example of the implementation of such a system.

[balmy jolt]

Throwing in my own two cents - Cobalt Core is a recent deckbuilder that unlocks all four difficulty options right after the tutorial, and I've never seen a single complaint against it.

[hoary zinc]

i recommend doing that on a second profile, so you can still keep your progress on the main for unlocking achievements

[olive totem]

Yea, I don't really care if they are all unlocked, or if I earn them one at a time. I just don't want to earn them 10 times over.

[vagrant basin]

I appreciate the consideration in your response, and thinking about it again I think I might actually agree that, so long as the stakes are still themselves earned one at a time, the fact is that if you want to play each deck with each stake, there can still be like a "win confirmed" sticker or whatever for each deck, but that it shouldn't be gating unlocks for further difficulties. Risk of Rain 2's Eclipse modifiers operate in a way like the current system, but I think the trend of not demanding hours of investment in slight modifiers of the gameplay loop is a good one to see more generally. More agency over difficulty is preferred, and I think your suggestion of not forcing players to play & win on each deck 7/8/9 times in order to make the highest difficulty available is fair.

I'm generally in favor of accessibility and I think letting a player who's reached black/whatever stake on one deck do so with another isn't going to give them the kind of difficulty whiplash that going from white to black back-to-back would

[stiff pewter]

There also could be a middle ground where beating a deck unlocks the next 4 stakes, so that you only have to beat each deck 3 times to unlock all stickers

[olive totem]

Yea, this would work great for me. I would totally be fine with that.

I believe Monster Train worked similar to that. It would unlock 5 Ascension levels higher than your highest win.

That said, I would probably still prefer it the way I suggested. Having it only unlock the next 3 Stakes is just doing less of the thing I have a problem with: padding the play time with unnecessary grinding.

[wet karma]

it's following precedent set by slay the spire, which is still loved 7 years later

[elder vector]

I've been terribly grinding on the gold deck cause I was obsessed with money, I don't want to start grinding with the blue and black deck's so I could give them a shot with the other decks :<

[wet karma]

@elder vector if you like money i think green > yellow

[clever mural]

It only works in Slay the Spire because there's only 4 characters.
I love the Downfall mod that adds like 7 characters, but there's no way I was going to play 70+ runs on essentially easy mode before I could unlock the difficulty that was interesting to me for each character, so I cheated it away.
It's the same idea for Balatro.

A compromise could be that beating a stake unlocks the stake 2 levels below for all decks.
Minimizes grinding the easiest levels that you've proven you can pass, but still require mastery of every deck for the highest reached levels.

[wet karma]

you call 1-10 "basically easy mode" but i never got past like A5 😭

[wet karma]

that idea i like

[karmic kayak]

I think the best middle ground would be beating each stake level 4 times (on any deck) or so unlocks the next, and each stake is unlocked for all decks. Unlocking stakes for all decks once you beat it once cuts out too much progression, but there's enough decks that play much the same where unlocking them individually is a chore.

[clever mural]

That could work too

[hollow gazelle]

This game doesnt feel grindy AT ALL, not in the same way that slay the spire runs go, id argue this game is easier to pull off, therefore, the way the difficulty unlocks for each deck is fine and if you dont like it theres an unlock button

[vagrant basin]

I hear that but I also think that's entirely anecdotal and people's experience with the difficulty of the game will vary widely

[normal frigate]

I lowkey prefer having myself learn a deck and be forced to manually progress upwards

It sends dopamine to my completionist mindset

And runtime is pretty quick

[stiff pewter]

@normal frigate you can still do that if you want with this suggestion nobody's forcing you to skip stakes

[normal frigate]

Oh then yeah I think difficulty could be global but I feel like the actual stickers should be awarded after

Completion per deck

[vagrant basin]

yeah ultimately that's why I think I like this suggestion because you can still have little completionist "I beat this deck on this difficulty" stickers but you don't need that to bar you from playing the higher challenge ratings

[olive totem]

I think we disagree on what progression is. If I beat a Stake, I want to progress to the next Stake. I don't want to lose progress by switching decks. You know, if you get to the last Stake, you can keep playing. You don't have to stop once you've beat it.

One of my earlier points was that the game really ends when we get bored and stop playing, and for me, that will probably be after an unknown amount. I don't want most of my time spent playing the game being in the lower difficulty tiers, beating a challenge I've already beatin for the 10th time. If you want to complete each and every difficulty level with each deck, then you can.

[olive totem]

Yea, I feel like this is the perfect compromise. Give completionists a sticker, but let me jump ahead. I actually LIKE not having the low tier stickers. Its like a mark of skill or whatever.

[grim aurora]

Tradition is not a reason unto itself.

[olive totem]

I don't know why tradition is coming up so much in a genre that is built on trying new things and innovation. Are we gonna let the Rogue-like deck builder genre stultify around a certain set of mechanics because "Thats what Slay the Spire did"? That is literally not an argument.

Its an Indie genre. The only thing that makes it good is being willing to change.

[wet karma]

@hollow gazelle yeah i didn't think about this til now but STS runs are way longer

@olive totem idk this is different enough. i know roguelite+poker/blackjack have been tried but i think previous ones used it as a means for RPG combat

[olive totem]

"Different enough" for what. This is moving pretty far off the topic. What other games did really has nothing to do with my request. Why, for this game, is it good that I have to dredge through 8 tiers of difficulty for every single deck? Why do you want to? Why is it better? It is artificial challenge. If I am capable of beating the highest difficulty on a relatively consistent basis right now, why am I forced to spend 8ish hours earning my right to do that.

Yes, I know there is an unlock button. I will press it once I unlock all of the other decks and jokers, but most of the decks are unlocked by climbing the Stake ladder. This means that instead of jumping around from deck to deck and having fun as I unlock more decks, I feel compelled by the mechanics to play the same deck over and over until I reach Gold Stakes.

That doesn't seem as fun as just getting to experiment on my way to the top, and the trade off is what? I have to spend more time playing decks i might not want to play as much to unlock everything? What is the upside of the current system over mine other than "tradition".

[covert breach]

Some decks will have a harder time at stakes, it makes sense to push through per deck

[twilit ginkgo]

ye, and some decks are indeed harder /easier to play with across the stakes

[hollow gazelle]

The reason tradition is brought up so much is because of how this game is built. To deny that this game is a roguelike is to deny its foundation, its very clear that MrThunk loves roguelikes with the way he has designed this game, we cannot deny him his inspirations, he chose to have the unlock stakes go per deck, not just because it was their idea, but because it is a traditionally repeating motif that provides a sense of accomplishment once each deck has reached its highest sticker. Game design is a very convoluted process, but often times decisions are as easy as following in the footsteps of inspirational predecessors.

[wet karma]

not even "tradition" coming from me. more like... influence. StS is huge, makes sense to take influence from it

[twilit ginkgo]

i dont think Balatro was influenced by StS very majorly

based on what dev said

forgot where the quote was

[olive totem]

I respect this point. I do agree that this game is a beautifully derivative game. It pulls from poker, obviously, but many other games. It is a masterpiece, for sure. If MrThunk truly feels like this grindy progression is part of his artistic vision, and he said it here, right now, I would immediately stop. I program games for fun in my free time. I understand the artistry of it. Sometimes the frustration of a challenge is part of the design. I just personally do not see how my suggestion does anything to harm the integrity of the game.

Once again, if the game was released, and you unlocked Stakes independently of each deck, I do not, for one moment, think that any of you would come into the suggestions area and say:

"The Stakes system should be gated to one deck at a time. I find that I am playing at too high a difficulty with decks that I'm less comfortable with because I am given access to too much difficulty too quickly. I know that I should just opt to play at a lower difficulty, but once the higher difficulty is unlocked, I cannot bring myself to do that."

The above statement actually is a valid point about design. You can let players ruin their own fun by letting them go too crazy too early with difficulty. That said, no one would legitimately come in here and post that because ultimately it is weird to ask for less. I am simply asking for more.

[hollow gazelle]

Just because something wouldnt be suggested by the players if the change was made so, does not mean it is a better choice of its design, sometimes it is up to the game designer to provide a better choice for gameplay

[olive totem]

So why is the current design better?

[compact steeple]

Dev hasn't played sts

[twilit ginkgo]

ye

[compact steeple]

#🎥・videos-and-streams message

[wet karma]

is achievement based progress rly 'grindy'? just win each deck/stake combo the first time 🤪

[stiff pewter]

Still grindy

[olive totem]

This is part of what bothers me is that purely achievement based progress is GOOD. The problem is, I already ACHIEVED THE THING!!! I don't want to have to achieve 10 times. I know that it's technically a different achievement if you slice it that thin, but I don't think that is a good way to run the game.

[wet karma]

@olive totem for the record i would be okay with stakes unlocking for all decks, just cus like... offering the choice is better than not

if i came off otherwise it's more just that i don't think the existing system ruins the experience

[olive totem]

That's fair. Yea, I understand that I'm probably being hyperbolic. I'm loving the game. I just feel strongly about this particular issue that I keep running into in game after game.

You are right. It does not ruin the experience, but it is sub-optimal in my opinion.

I'm currently grinding with the Ghost Deck in order to unlock all the other decks. I'm having fun, but I would like to switch decks between runs and not go down in difficulty when I do :/.

[wet karma]

like ngl i would play more anyway 😅 kept playing demo when i'd won a bunch and filled collection

[olive totem]

Same lol, it is an amazing game.

[tidal hinge]

HUGE +1. I was expecting stakes to be unlocked per save, and it was a huge disappointment to find out they aren't. I tried unlocking the gold stakes on different decks and past blue stake it's just RNG hell. It is simply annoying that I need to go through RNG hell 3 times per deck, on 15 decks!

Every stake already includes past stakes, so if I unlock gold stake on yellow deck, then by playing gold stake on blue deck I'm already playing all previous difficulties. Why the unnecessary grind?.. Some people say that "then you actually play all decks and not just 1", but I strongly disagree.

Gold stake on its own already takes multiple attempts to complete, and with 15 decks in total, it will take you hundreds of hours to complete all of them (if you unlock stakes 1 by 1). Task like this should never be an achievement for any game.

Speaking of achievements, they should also be reworked, gold stake should never have an achievement in the first place, not in its current state. I have hundreds of hours since the demo, and imagine a new player coming here and only figuring the game out by ~30-50 hours of playtime. Then they realise it will take them 200-300 hours to finish last 2 achievements (gold stake). I don't think many people would find it somehow "challenging" or "fun", this is just boring ass routine. Blue stake imo seems like the sweet spot for the achievements - challenging but not impossible for a new/casual player.

For now I simply quit the grind for stakes past blue stake, and doing challenge runs, because they feel more fun and balanced in terms of difficulty (although there is only so much of challanges I can do 😦).

I don't think I'll be grinding for gold stakes any time soon. I know that localthunk probably has tons of other things on his plate, but imo the difficulty unlocking and scaling needs redesign ASAP for the replayability of this game.

[weary drum]

Yeah, I was absolutely loving the game until I started climbing the stakes. All of a sudden all the interesting combos and dynamic gameplay are out the window and it's nothing but poorly balanced RNG hell. Yuck. I could see an achievement for beating gold stake once - then you can go back to having fun. But completionist+ and completionist++ are ridiculous.

[ebon timber]

Monster Train only unlocked them one at a time

(At least, when I played it did)

I'm of the mind that the unlock method for stakes are fine where they are, but I also come from playing both Issac and StS, both games with intense grinds. I spent 10 hours playing Persona 5 Royal, grinding Mementos at one point for levels. The grind doesn't bother me. I recognize that it's not something for everyone though.

I think it's fine simply because I look at it this way: Say you beat Checkered on Gold stake, (one of the easiest decks in my opinion), and it unlocks all the gold stakes for everything else. So, you decide to go to another deck, say Plasma, and play on Gold stake. The methods and strategy you used to beat Checkered won't work on Plasma, and you get absolutely destroyed by Gold on that one. So you try again. And repeat getting destroyed until you eventually win a run, because you found out how to do it.

Contrast with: You Gold Stake Checkered. You switch to Plasma. You start working your way up the stakes and learn a strategy that works for Plasma, and you slowly build an idea of what works and what doesn't work, and by the time you finally hit Gold? Boom, you can try what you think works and see how good you actually are at Plasma deck.

I view the StS ascensions the same way. They exist as a way to help slowly guide you through difficulty scaling and let you build methods and strategies that work that you wouldn't have if you just started on a20 every single time.

I think if people want an option to unlock Gold stake instantly, that's fine. That should be a thing if people really want it, but I also view this game as a collectathon, where part of the appeal of the game is to unlock everything, and I don't think it should be the default thing where you get to skip all the previous stakes because you did it once.

[tidal hinge]

Idk how sts works, but I personally think there's only 4/15 decks that drastically change the feel of the game - black, plasma, painted and green. The rest of them feel pretty straightforward, imo.
My main issue is that the last 3 stakes rely a lot on RNG rather than your skill, it does not really matter how much you played with the deck, because if you don't get good scaling early, you simply lose.
So there's 2 issues (how I see it) :

1. Purple and higher stakes are very random, you need to get VERY lucky early to outpace the scaling.
2. Completionist+ and completionist++ are WAY too grindy.

For the issue #1 I don't have any reasonable solutions. Imo on higher difficulties you need to have at least 50-60% winning percentage as an experienced player, but ofc it's a subjective matter

For the issue #2 I already said - move achievements to blue stake. I think that's easy enough for casual players to reach.

[brazen rapids]

As someone who has gold stake'd I agree with OP, having to clear every stake with every deck is an exercise in tedium, not skill

I don't see any reason why stakes don't unlock across all decks other than to force you to play 8x more games to reach the difficulty you want to play

[ebon timber]

1. This is a game about RNG at its core. I will die on this hill, but, yeah, that's kinda the point of the game. Once again, you will never get the same order of cards if you shuffle it. I don't think there is anything you can do to counteract that outside of radically changing the game.
2. Completionist+ and ++ are always going to be grindy. That's ok. Even if they get moved to lower stakes, they'll still be a grind. Like.

Also Erratic 100% changes how you approach the game.

All of the decks except Red/Blue/Yellow change the game in some meaningful way that changes how you approach the game.

[tidal hinge]

Not really, sure you get secret hands easier, but it's not like deck manip was already a thing

You just get it earlier

[ebon timber]

You can low-roll a deck

Like sure you can get secret hands easier, but there will always be times where you get an awful deck to begin with

[tidal hinge]

Meaning?

[ebon timber]

I think all the decks meaningfully change how you play the game, and unlocking gold stake would result in the same thing as if you played all the stakes, except it'll just take you longer/be more aggrevating.

[tidal hinge]

What does low roll a deck mean tho

Not sure I understand

[ebon timber]

You could get an entirely standard deck

Or a deck that is mostly the same but with like a few extra cards that you wouldn't have before

[tidal hinge]

I don't see how is that terrible tbh, maybe only on higher stakes because you don't get the advantage of the deck, but on lower stakes it does not really matter Ig

It's not like you cant just hold R until the deck looks good for u though

[ebon timber]

Yeah, and once again, you lose out on the chance to get to understand a deck on lower stakes and figure out how it works before playing on gold stake

It goes to the point of, if you started on gold stake, you will eventually beat it.

Either by luck, or by finally figuring out how to play the deck well.

Do you know the other way to figure out how to play the deck well? Play through the stakes and climb to gold.

[tidal hinge]

I mean purple+ stakes are basically all luck. I don't see the point how getting a lucky win is any different on white or gold stake. Experienced player just knows how the luck looks like

[ebon timber]

There's skill in mitigating luck to your benefit.

That's why a20 is possible in StS

Ascension 1 - Elites spawn more often.
Ascension 2 - Normal enemies are deadlier.
Ascension 3 - Elites are deadlier.
Ascension 4 - Bosses are deadlier.
Ascension 5 - Heal less after Boss battles.
Ascension 6 - Start each run damaged.
Ascension 7 - Normal enemies are tougher.
Ascension 8 - Elites are tougher.
Ascension 9 - Bosses are tougher.
Ascension 10 - Start each run cursed.
Ascension 11 - Start each run with 1 less potion slot.
Ascension 12 - Upgraded cards appear less often.
Ascension 13 - Poor bosses.
Ascension 14 - Lower max HP.
Ascension 15 - Unfavourable events.
Ascension 16 - Shops are more costly.
Ascension 17 - Normal enemies have more challenging movesets and abilities.
Ascension 18 - Elites have more challenging movesets and abilities.
Ascension 19 - Bosses have more challenging movesets and abilities.
Ascension 20 - Double boss.

This is what a20 has in StS. Mitigating luck is a part of skill, and learning how to use luck to your advantage is a skill

[crude hornet]

I think if something like this is implemented it would be fine, but there would need to be at least one harder stake

[tidal hinge]

Not looking at StS, because I never played it.
You're talking about mitigating luck, but it's not like this is literally the same on any deck? If you know how to beat gold stake on one deck, and know basics of another deck, how climbing the difficulties on another deck is going to teach you anything new?

[ebon timber]

How do you propose you learn the basics of a new deck on gold

When if you don't get lucky in the first couple of shops, you just lose

What does that teach you about the deck

[crude hornet]

why would you need to learn the basics when the basics are all the same

[ebon timber]

Not all decks are the same

[crude hornet]

the differences would not make a significant impact in a gold stake run

[tidal hinge]

I mean, first thing I did when I got the game, I played on every deck, got a feel on how they play, then went to climb the stakes

[ebon timber]

Tell me when you gold stake black deck

Or painted

Or plasma, even

[brazen rapids]

I don't really get the people above claiming that "Isaac does this so why not Balatro" when Isaac absolutely does not do anything relative to this

Imagine if in Isaac you had to beat Mom's Heart 10 times to unlock Sheol/Cathedral per character, that would be the equivalent

[ebon timber]

Issac has the issue of you have to beat every single boss with every single character

[tidal hinge]

then I got gold stake on one deck - what I do now is want to get gold stake on another deck. I already know how it feels, but I don't need to prove that I am experienced enough to beat gold, because I already did. And I already know the basics of this deck. I don't need to climb it

[crude hornet]

so what you need to beat these decks on orange stake to prove youre good enough to play them on gold stake. thats just an absurd overreach

[ebon timber]

Yes, actually. I genuinely believe that.

[crude hornet]

just let the player win on white stake and the rest of the stakes are unlocked

[ebon timber]

You cannot go from base difficulty to the max difficulty without having learned something about all of the decks and how they play

[crude hornet]

yes you can

[ebon timber]

Or being, in the first place, good at the game

[ebon timber]

No you really cannot LOL

Not all jokers are made equal for every single deck

Not all builds are equal between all decks

[crude hornet]

most players already have the intuition to play this its not like we're first graders who have never played a video game before

[brazen rapids]

Someone who wins on a deck on gold stake isn't going to gain any major epiphanies from doing the same climb on other decks, it's all the same with slightly different constraints

[crude hornet]

not everyone wants to be coddled

[ebon timber]

It is not coddling when it is proving you have enough skill at the game to win.

[crude hornet]

proving to who its a single player game

its for your personal enjoyment

[ebon timber]

The game itself!

[ebon timber]

That's great! The grind isn't for everyone! The max difficulty isn't for everyone!

That's the whole point

A casual player will not look at gold stake and go "I think I can do that ezpz"

[crude hornet]

a casual player won't reach gold stake at all by your logic

[ebon timber]

Yeah

Because gold stake is actually really difficult

Same thing with StS, it's really difficult

[crude hornet]

yes but the difficulty does not vary much between decks

[ebon timber]

Yes it does LMAO

[crude hornet]

sts is not helping your point btw

[ebon timber]

You are not gonna sit here and say "Difficulty doesn't vary between decks" when Black and Checkered exist

[crude hornet]

ok and every other deck

[brazen rapids]

People conflating "X player is not skilled enough to beat every deck on gold stake" and "X player doesn't want to spend at least 105 30+ minute runs to unlocking the gold stake difficulty for every deck" are missing the heart of OP's argument

[ebon timber]

Green deck forces you to manage your hands/discards better for eco
Black forces you to play less hands at the benefit of more joker slots
Checkered lets you play flushes easily, and is probably the easiest deck in the whole game
Zodiac messes with your shops, and makes it less likely for you to see actual jokers
Painted gives you less jokers
Plasma is plasma
Erratic is luck based

These decks are not equal to one another in terms of difficulty

[crude hornet]

yes but these difficulties do not scale consierably different to each other as the stakes increase

im not talking about initial difficulty

[ebon timber]

They all force you to play differently.

[crude hornet]

but the increased difficulty from the lower stakes to higher stakes

[ebon timber]

I am going to put this once more and stop.

If you go straight to gold stake, you will inevitably get to the same point as if you played through all the stakes on their own.

It will take you longer to do it.

It will be more aggrevating to do so.

[brazen rapids]

Sorry to poke holes but I also find it extremely odd that you're advocating for keeping the current system of "You need to do over a hundred runs minimum to unlock gold stake for every deck, and that's if every run is a winner" when you've cleared exactly one deck

[ebon timber]

Gimme a second

I'm of the mind that the unlock method for stakes are fine where they are, but I also come from playing both Issac and StS, both games with intense grinds. I spent 10 hours playing Persona 5 Royal, grinding Mementos at one point for levels. The grind doesn't bother me. I recognize that it's not something for everyone though.

I have said this earlier.

Once again, grinding does not bother me

I recognize not everyone likes it.

[brazen rapids]

Isaac has no equivalent system to gating basic difficulty options on a per-character basis

It has "Normal" and "Hard", which are selectable at all times

[ebon timber]

Hard is not.

Oh wait no that's Greedier

[brazen rapids]

When you first start the game, the basic progression gates you from going right to stuff like Delirium, but that progression is shared between all characters

So no, I don't think Isaac is an equivalent game to point out here

[ebon timber]

It's equivalent to point out

Because it's a grind

You have to kill Mom's Heart 10 fucking times to unlock more bosses

10

[brazen rapids]

And you only have to do it with one character, not 34

[ebon timber]

You have to kill Satan and Issac five times to unlock Dark Room and Chest.

[brazen rapids]

etc.

[ebon timber]

And the point once again.

It's a grind.

Who really gives a shit

The difficulty scaling is the content of this game

You can hit unlock all on a profile

But guess what it does

Disables achivements

You can completely ignore the grind of this game, but you miss out on achievements for doing so

[crude hornet]

you do realize the achievement for the grind wouldn't have to change

[ebon timber]

You are just making the grind longer

[crude hornet]

it could still give you completionist+ for beating every deck on every stake

[crude hornet]

who cares thats a personal choice

[brazen rapids]

I think you're putting too much value in grinding lol

[ebon timber]

That's great 👍

[crude hornet]

i'm personally fine with this system but it does annoy me

[ebon timber]

Because that's literally how you unlock everything in this game

[brazen rapids]

When you get to the point where you stop characterizing playing the game as such and start calling it a grind, you should reflect on what that says about the sort of gameplay you're encouraging

[ebon timber]

.

This is all I'm adding.

This conversation is going nowhere.

Good day. 👍

[crude hornet]

you really just keep referring back to how youve played grindy games so that you can justify keeping this system thats less enjoyable to people who dont like grinding as much

[proven flint]

The different decks are going to be what keeps this fresh for me I think. Between that and the huge variety of jokers it stays interesting

[crude hornet]

you have no point other than wanting to grind when you could still do that without making everyone also be forced into the same pigeonhole 😭

[south delta]

while I'm personally perfectly fine with the current system of climbing the ranks for each deck, I agree with OP here
as long as you're required to beat white stake at minimum on each deck to access other stakes, making the stake unlocks universal (beating gold on a deck means every deck can do gold and below) would just decrease the grind for experienced players while still allowing the player to learn about how to play a deck during white stake

[olive totem]

I disagree with your entire premise, but I respect you for making your case.

[languid meteor]

🎷🐛

[olive totem]

I reiterate my strongest point: if you want to work through each stake one at a time, you can. I don't want to do that, and my way of playing is not an option right now where as yours is.

Also, after having gotten most of the way through the Stocks on a few decks now, I will say that I have come to not like the higher Stakes that much. They really are unfun to play. Once you lose 1 discard, all of the early game strategies and all of the leeway you have to gamble in the early game goes out the window, and you're basically forced to just take the first decent joker you see and pray you get a synergy with that Joker early in the run. Its super random and not really a test of skill.

Another thing I pointed out earlier is that playing the lower Stakes can actually teach you bad styles of play. For example, once the reward money for the Small Blind is removed, the cost benefit of skipping the Small Blind (particularly the first one) completely changes. Proof of this is that I sometimes find myself skipping the first Small Blind when I'm playing a new deck, forgetting that I was not on that Stake, and would have been better served by playing the Blind for the gold.

In general, the way you play changes over the course of going up the Stakes to accommodate the new rules. This means that when you start the climb with a new deck, the decisions that you are rewarded for making might not work at the higher difficulties, and so you learn bad habits. Just think that is a tick against the idea that climbing the Stakes is good for teaching the player to play.

I also just think that in general, you are underestimating most people's abilities to extrapolate their skills from one deck to another. They really aren't that different. I see a deck and almost immediately know what combos would be better with that deck than others, and what hands are easier to craft (particularly the secret hands).

[ebon timber]

I think if you're failing to play by the rules of a higher stake, that's not the fault of the game, that's a fault of yourself for not reading the difficulty. White stake exists to teach you the basics. Each stake teaches you something new about the deck and what you have to do to. Yes, the hands don't change, but there are specific ways each deck makes you play the game. Specifically:

• Red/Blue/Yellow/Abandoned/Checkered: Game is mostly unchanged/the change of the deck isn't meaningful in any way.
• Green: Forces you to play less hands/discard less for eco
• Black: +1 Joker slot for -1 hand radically changes how you approach early game. Your early game sucks, and not all strategies work, but your late game is better.
• Magic: You get deck manipulation easier
• Nebula: Prioritizes you taking Celestials
• Ghost: Prioritizes you skipping less to see more Spectrals
• Zodiac: Messes with your shops because of Tarot/Planet Merchant
• Painted: +2 Hand size, -1 Joker makes your early game easier, but late game harder.
• Anaglyph: Prioritizes skipping
• Plasma: Makes you stack mult/chips really hard
• Erratic: Adapt to luck

I once again, stand by the notion of if you skip to gold instantly, you will inevitably get to the same result if you played each stake individually, except, you are now having to struggle with the RNG more instead of getting an idea for how to gradually build up to the difficulty. Sure, if you played any of the five decks I listed that don't meaningfully change the game you could realistically go and play Gold on those without any issues. But that won't happen for every single deck.

Secret hands are also not a reliable hand when it comes to high stakes. The most reliable card at high stakes is literally a high card build. Which sure, that doesn't change a lot between decks, but once again, each deck makes you approach the game in a different way than you normally would on a relatively standard deck, like say Red or Blue.

[clever mural]

If anyone is interested, I just made a mod that implements my "compromise" idea so that beating a stake unlocks the stake 2 levels below for all decks. (From last week #1209737559299596349 message)
It can also be customized so it just unlocks the same stakes for all decks just like OP's request.
Link: https://discord.com/channels/1116389027176787968/1213623470559207484

[tidal hinge]

Heh, why do you say that abandoned & checkered are "mostly unchanged" but for magic "deck manipulation is easier". With other 2, deck manip is already done for you

also I already brought up that with erratic you can just hold R until decent deck

Also, my biggest point that all this can be avoided if only Gold stake stuff wasn't needed for achievements

[peak warren]

i think the problem currently is more that higher stakes are mostly luck based, making unlocks transfer helps eliminate some of the grind to get there but it doesn't really address what imo is the bigger issue. op's proposed suggestion is a bit of an improvement over the current system imo but id rather it not be necessary at all

[tidal hinge]

Some people like to complete all achievements, and I am one of them, but I don't find it particularly fun to grind the hardest difficulty in the game on 15 decks

[cosmic marsh]

I completely agree with you. As long as one stake has been beaten in another deck, it should be unlocked to be played in all the others as well. Of course, to still be completed.

[vagrant basin]

I think my opinion on this discussion is essentially a concern of respecting a player's time. Yes yes, "proving" your ability to the game through enduring so-and-so challenge is good and all, but also as a roguelike a big aspect of fun and replayability is the fact you can sit down virtually anytime you have an hour or two to kill and play how you want. If it requires you to spend 500 hours to play with your desired settings, I don't care if it's piss easy or Sisyphean, you should get to play the whole game how you want to by that point

[green totem]

I hope this will be implemented soon. I genuinely can't believe how some people think that grinding through difficulty levels that I've already done on a different deck is adding "replayability" and "challenge".

This mechanic creates replayability that adds tedium rather than fun and variety. I wanted to attempt at least all Gold tokens for each deck, but because of an arbitrary mechanic of difficulty unlocking, it has put me off doing it completely. I will patiently wait for the patch, or wait for a mod to unlock the higher difficulties.

The challenge added by this is just time. The decks are not that different that requires one to spend hours just to unlock the difficulty. Just let me play the highest difficulty. Again, if someone really want to "learn the deck by climbing difficulties" the option is still there. But let's be real, the highest stakes are just a grind fest till you get good RNG, it took me less time to beat Gold than Orange due to dumb luck.

[lyric anchor]

#1209737559299596349 message
this is a mod that you can customize depending on how you want stakes to unlock

by default it unlocks stakes for every deck if you beat the stake 2 above it

but you can customize it

[stiff pewter]

Cool idea for a Stake rework
#1214122871316545586 message

[restive vector]

Grinding each decks stake individually is THE driving force for me with this game. I really wouldnt have it any other way. I understand that there are people who may wish to skip the grind, but I agree with other comments that the unlock all button solves this. If the game were changed so that stakes unlock for all jokers after winning on one, It would definitely ruin the experience for me, and there isn't any solving that once that door is opened. If you just want to skip to the end of the game, hit the skip button. By the time you've beaten most stakes on the low levels, chances are you've already gotten a lot of the other unlocks, so I don't see how it harms very much.

[stiff pewter]

The problem is that right now, high stakes are way too RNG-heavy and 120 stakes is too much to be forced to spend 1 hour+ for higher stakes

[restive vector]

That seems more like an issue to make with the difficulty of higher stakes, not the stake unlock system. Because again, you can hit unlock all and skip the grind right?

[lyric anchor]

yeah but that ruins unlocking and finding all the jokers

[tidal hinge]

What's the point of unlock all, when it disables achievements? Main reason people want to do all gold stakes is because it gives an achievement.

[restive vector]

Id say most of that can be done in the first 30-40 hours of the game. if youve played so much that youre getting frustrated grinding to get all the stakes, youve probably hit everything else already. If you havent, maybe spend 10 hours acheivement/unlock hunting and then hit the unlock all?

[tidal hinge]

I would say that is very wrong

15 decks, and 8 stakes. 15 * 8 = 120 wins.
If you're lucky and get on whooping 120 winstreak, while spending 30 minutes per run, you spend in total 60 hours. If you do 60 minutes per run, it is 120 hours.

I want to ask you - did you do at least one gold stake? Because you seem to underestimate how hard it is. Purple stake and higher would take you at least a few attempts, unless you get extremely lucky, but you're saying "30-40 hours" like it's an average number, whilst on average it would take you like 3-5 attempts to beat gold stake (given you win all previous stakes no problem) on an average deck. There's exceptions that are harder (painted, black) / easier (plasma, checkered) and will take longer, but yeah.

If you're a new player, you probably only scratch red stake on 1 deck by 20-30 hours. Then from your words you magically become insanely good and finish 120 runs in 20 hours? Sounds doable.

[wooden musk]

they should let you have decks unlocked on every difficulty, and your motive to play the runs on various decks is to get the chip badge on that specific deck for best ability

like im playing red deck on gold difficulty. i should be able to play other deck on gold difficulty without it being gated behind 30 hours of gameplay. trying to win on high difficulty can be really frustrating also with how many dead starts you can get

[rustic temple]

I'm currently in favor of keeping it as is. I think it adds a lot of replayability to the game, and I like how it gets you used to playing each deck before you move on to the higher difficulties.

[winter cargo]

they should allow you to play every difficulty but keep the stickers for each difficulty

like you still need to grind to get the stickers but you can play any difficulty on any deck as long you have it unlocked

[stiff pewter]

By that logic, forcing you to unlock every joker with every deck individually would also add replayability to the game

[winter cargo]

you must beat every joker on every difficulty (not just gold stake) to get completionist ++

"replayability"

[rustic temple]

Nah
Cause more jokers = more replayability

And having to play the game with each deck = more balatro :)

[winter cargo]

just play another save file honestly it is better replayability

[restive vector]

I was referring to all of the non stake unlocks

[tidal hinge]

Gold stake sticker unlocks stickers for all previous stakes

[olive totem]

Not to be harsh, but you're talking past him a bit. His complaint is that he can't earn the Completionist+ achievement if he unlocks all.

What our side is advocating for is simply good for the game, im sorry. If the game came out, and the Stake system were set up such that each Stake was unlocked universally, no one would come into this suggestion feed and say "Make the Stakes system unlock for each deck individually. I want more to do in the game." No one in this chat has run out of things to do in this game yet. I am sure of it. The problem is that this grind they've added to the Stakes has created an artificial time sink that doesn't need to be there.

I have a job and I'm going to school. I'm also going to be bored with the game and move on eventually. We all are. I don't want most of my time spent with this game to involve losing Ante 2 or 3 to RNG because the higher Stakes are so punishing.

I've tried not to focus on rebalancing the difficulty, as that is not the point of this post, but it is true to me that the difficulty at higher Stakes is too punishing, to the point of strangling most of the choice out of each run and turning the game into a slot machine basically. I think that the "difficulty" needs to be addressed. That said, even if the higher difficulties were a blast to play and felt like tough but fair challenges, I would still advocate for Universal Stake Unlocks, as I still feel that it respects the player's time and skill.

For me, I've just moved on to doing the challenges, and ill probably stop playing once I've done all of those that are fun.

[tidal hinge]

Offtopic, but all challenges were pretty fun (except for cruelty 😭)

[olive totem]

Nice

[south delta]

unfortunately we have hit a cap on upvotes for this thread

[zinc dune]

I want to add just a bit of math - to beat the game fully, at the moment you need to do a minimum of:
8 stakes * 15 decks + 20 challenge runs = 140 successful runs
If each successful run takes 1 hour (mine often take much more than that, especially because I like endless mode), then that's over a full work month of time. And that's assuming that I'm already so good at the game I beat it every time flawlessly.
If you change it so beating a stake unlocks the next level for all decks then it is:
8 stakes in one deck + 14 other decks + 20 challenge runs = 42 successful runs

If there were fewer stakes, this might not be as much of a problem. Often when I get a really good run, it's one that would probably also have beaten 1 or 2 stakes above it. With 4 stakes and the current unlock system this might be reasonable (it's still 80 runs). But that's not the system we were given.

It also just isn't that satisfying that only the first time beating a stake difficulty gives an unlock. Maybe if beating a new difficulty on each deck unlocked a new joker (120 more jokers to unlock!) then it would make sense to keep the current method of unlocking stakes. The jokers could even be ones that are deck specific, that would make playing that deck more powerful, which may offer some slight help to overcome the difficulty of beating the next stake.
.

Anyways, as someone that is an adult with a job and a life, I get about 1 successful run a day on average. I assume as I go up in the stake difficulty (I haven't beaten black yet) then that number will go down. I'd like to be able to play on higher stakes and have some more variety in my gameplay without the game taking over a year to beat. It's a single player game. If someone wants to go through every level of every deck because that's satisfying to them they CAN DO that. But as someone who is having a lot of fun with this game at the moment, it's unsatisfying that in order to play higher stakes then I have to abandon the fun of having a wide variety of decks to choose from.

If you want to talk about how much free time you have and how much of a pro gamer you are that this unlock method is your preference, then that's fine. But as a normal person that likes to play games, I would enjoy the game more if this change was made. I believe the developer should optimize for more people having fun rather than more people grinding the game.

[fervent hound]

I really like your deck linked joker idea you should write more about it. This idea might give sens to beating every stakes, because after beating all of them once, I kinda feel that I grind them only to unlock gold one

[zinc dune]

Thanks! I also thought that idea was good enough to make a fresh post about it: https://discord.com/channels/1116389027176787968/1215051938375409664

[olive totem]

I mean, it would be incredible but you're asking a lot from the developer. Plus, more jokers might not actually improve the game, as you could end up diluting the pool.

[hollow gazelle]

hot take but I think the difficulty is fine where it stands for each deck, i like that i have to learn how to play the deck at its best to have a chance at winning gold stake, gold stake is the hardest difficulty, it should be hard, you should not be able to win every run , or even half the runs, because you're learning about how to manuever its limitations, so that when you DO get a possible good run, you can grasp it with a tighter hand and succeed in it.

tldr, gold stake is not for casual andies, and I think it should stay at a deck per deck basis, each deck is different enough to have different playstyles, complimenting the fact that you gotta win gold stake on every deck.

[plucky hill]

it's not about like

beating a stake on one difficulty counting as a win for all of them

it's about stakes being unlocked for every deck at the same time

so the first time you beat white stake and unlock red, you can then play red stake on any deck without having to play white stake again on those decks

this isn't making the game any easier, just less tedious to unlock the higher stakes for every deck

[hollow gazelle]

that is by definition making it easier

[hollow gazelle]

these are effectively the same thing

the whole point of having to beat a specific stake on a deck is that each higher stake gets more unique, and the deck youre playing is unique

Some decks are easier to win than others

they have more synergistic qualities

[plucky hill]

the stakes stop being unique when you have to slowly trundle through them 12 ish times per stake

[hollow gazelle]

whats wrong with that?

[plucky hill]

it's super repetitive and just not necessary

[hollow gazelle]

Its pinnacle difficulty

[plucky hill]

it's not difficulty

length is not difficulty

[hollow gazelle]

length is one part of difficulty

another is variance

which is what rng is

[plucky hill]

idk what the hell kind of difficulty you're on about

it doesn't make the stakes any easier

[hollow gazelle]

idk man im a game designer and im telling you you are overlooking stuff because you are impatient with playing the game

im not saying it makes the stakes easier, im saying it takes away the reward for beating a specific stake on the deck

[plucky hill]

it doesn't take away the reward

[hollow gazelle]

it kinda does

theres progression

[plucky hill]

then you can follow the self imposed challenge of beating every difficulty on every deck, if you want to

[hollow gazelle]

which is how the game exists as it is

[plucky hill]

which is inherently repetitive and boring

[hollow gazelle]

the game is inherently repetitive

it being boring is an issue on your own mind

[crude hornet]

no you are just closed minded

[plucky hill]

that doesn't mean no effort should be made to reduce it

[hollow gazelle]

part of that repetitivness is what makes the game fun

[plucky hill]

even for those of you who like the current system, you don't lose anything if this is added

[hollow gazelle]

its hard to remove certain components while retaining others

[plucky hill]

you still have the option to beat every difficulty with every deck if you so please

[hollow gazelle]

oh im not against adding that

im against replacing the system as a whole

[plucky hill]

oh no i'm just talking about unlocking stakes for every deck when you unlock them for one

[hollow gazelle]

yea that should be added as a different mode

i still want the current system to exist as like an "iron man" mode of unlocking them

[crude hornet]

you do realize that if the suggested system would be implemented you could still do what youre suggesting

[hollow gazelle]

im suggesting that they need to be separated, not one or the other

[crude hornet]

thats just a convoluted solution

[plucky hill]

i think we can both get a W out of this
unlock stakes for every deck once they're unlocked on one, but don't fill in these little stake colors until they've been beaten on that deck specifically

that way you have an ingame metric showing which stakes were beaten with which deck compared to those unlocked by beating the stake on another deck

[hollow gazelle]

as it stands right now, getting gold stake on every deck is a difficult task, a grindy one at that, it somewhat invalidates the task if you are able to achieve that just by grinding one deck (plasma super easy) and then able to beat it on everything else

[plucky hill]

you still do have to beat gold stake 15 times or so

[hollow gazelle]

yea but you arent learning how to play the other decks well

thats the whole reason the way its handled now is how it is

[crude hornet]

assuming you need to learn how to play the other decks is such a reach

[hollow gazelle]

youd be suprised

[plucky hill]

if you wanna do that you have the option to go down to the other difficulties

[crude hornet]

this is also just completely unsubstantiated

[crude hornet]

how exactly?

[hollow gazelle]

I just dont think this will be implemented, gold stake is pinnacle content, if you want it beat on a deck you have to play that deck a lot, its simple

the lower stakes arent even that much more difficult

[crude hornet]

yes they arent

[plucky hill]

it's that it is tedious

not that it is difficult

you are complaining about a difficulty increase that wouldn't happen

[hollow gazelle]

whats wrong with it being tedious, id argue that pinnacle content should be tedious to reach

i am not saying difficulty would increase at all

[crude hornet]

theres a difference in tedium between 30 hours and 150

[plucky hill]

(those were best case scenario numbers)

[hollow gazelle]

yes i would say 150 hours is a good signifier of completing all pinnacle content

[plucky hill]

pinnacle content

[hollow gazelle]

yes

[crude hornet]

the problem is that you are reaching the pinnacle of difficulty and then going back to an easier level

[hollow gazelle]

yea buit now youre on a different deck

modulated circumstances

[crude hornet]

in the same game

same jokers same vouchers same everything else

[hollow gazelle]

you are given different advantages to work with

[plucky hill]

boy i sure do need to learn how to play with a.. larger hand size

[hollow gazelle]

yea youd be suprised just how much more stuff is now better

[plucky hill]

one extra discard! time to play the same deck for like 8 more runs because i have one extra discard

i sure do need to learn how to read that the number is larger

it's not like, idk, there's a joker that already does that

which you probably have used

or two vouchers that do it

[hollow gazelle]

the game is SUPER rng heavy, these small innocent changes have a larger impact on the choices you have to be making, thats what makes grinding the gold stake difficult, they are intricate mechanics that synergize together and you are undervaluing just how different they can make strategies

[plucky hill]

you are arguing the wrong point

this will not make the gold stake easier

[hollow gazelle]

dude i have no idea where you keep thinking thats my argument

[plucky hill]

thats what makes grinding the gold stake difficult, they are intricate mechanics that synergize together and you are undervaluing just how different they can make strategies
the entire second half of your message

is just talking about the gold deck being hard

why even bother to include it if that's "not your argument"

[hollow gazelle]

Yea and im saying that just being able to get straight to the gold deck on every deck just because you beat it on one is shortcutting the curve

[crude hornet]

which is just wrong

[hollow gazelle]

and youre arguing that playing a different deck isnt that different so its not that much of a shortcut

which im arguing it is

[crude hornet]

yes

thats your personal perspective so you can play like that if you want

[plucky hill]

you keep framing this as though skipping the earlier difficulties will make it easier to win gold stake

[hollow gazelle]

no im not saying that

im saying its necessary for it

[crude hornet]

im not going to learn anything different from playing red stake instead of white stake on any deck

[plucky hill]

you just slightly favor skipping the first blind more

[hollow gazelle]

+1 hand vs +1 discard is already such a large difference and if you cant notice just how big of an impact that makes it on such a classic take of a roguelike this game is; then my time arguing here is wasted

[crude hornet]

ive played the game and I disagree

you just want to argue in circles if you think making a statement means anything

[hollow gazelle]

alright well im gone so I hope as you keep playing youll start to see it

This might be just a cultural difference because I am getting my masters in game design and I spend many hours writing and conceptualizing these very mechanics and just how different you can make experiences in roguelikes, and you might just be approaching this completely as a customer regarding their experience

which is fine

nothing wrong with that, im just saying we might be on completely different ends of the spectrum when it comes to system design

[crude hornet]

nothing of value was added with that other than trying to belittle my opinion

👍

[hollow gazelle]

I want to say that im not invalidating your argument because (um actually i have a degree on this ☝️ )

like im not trying to use that

to say that your opinion is wrong

your opinion is just as valid as mine regardless of education

im saying that we are probably clashing so much because of how we are approaching the experience

[plucky hill]

https://tenor.com/view/jetstream-sam-my-beloved-gif-22029076

[plucky hill]

this does solve both sides of the argument though i'd just like to push it so more people can see

[hollow gazelle]

Yea I think we can have both of experiences, as seperated modes for a save file

[plucky hill]

i don't think separate modes is necessary
just an ingame method to still be able to track which stakes were beaten for which deck

[hollow gazelle]

but its probably a very small thing underneath a whole bunch of stuff mr thunk wants to add or incorporate

[plucky hill]

this might be the biggest suggestion of all the suggestions iirc

[crude hornet]

separate modes is not necessary but it should be fine if theres no achievements tied to it

[ebon timber]

I stand by the same thing I said before, if we enable unlocking all stakes once you do it on one deck, you get to the same exact point just in more time.

You will inevitable learn how to play the deck, and learn how to overcome its limitations, (which you'd do if you played from white to gold stake), but instead, you're just making the grind harder for no reason by starting at gold.

[plucky hill]

did you mean to say in less time or

[ebon timber]

No.

I mean more time.

[plucky hill]

that doesn't make sense

[ebon timber]

Your runs will die out in early stakes as you figure out the deck.

Or you will simply die to RNG

(RNG is unavoidable, but if you go from white to gold, you get a general idea of when your deck will die)

The only time I see it saving time is if it's like your second or third gold stake

If you have 2 or 3 gold stakes complete, you should reasonably know how to play the game regardless of the deck

But also if you have 2 or 3 gold stakes, the time commitment is meaningless?

Like you clearly do not mind about putting in the time

[peak warren]

i don't think you get to determine how other people value their time lol

[plucky hill]

you lost me at this

there isn't another choice

[ebon timber]

If you are willing to put in the time to get 2 or 3 gold stakes, the time committment doesn't matter

Like you are clearly willing to put in the time regardless

[peak warren]

you're taking your own experience and extrapolating it to everyone else

[ebon timber]

I have said multiple times in this that I really do not mind grinding.

[peak warren]

and not everyone is of the same opinion

[plucky hill]

is it opposite day over there or smthn you got this all backwards

[ebon timber]

Not really, but you clearly have a different opinion.

[plucky hill]

the things you say would make perfect sense if you flipped like two words

[ebon timber]

Look.

I 100%ed StS

I have gotten Dead God in Issac before

The time commitment does not bother me

[crude hornet]

funny how hes just ignoring this

[ebon timber]

The game changes based off the deck

[plucky hill]

this doesn't change the completion conditions

[ebon timber]

They

[crude hornet]

sorry they

[ebon timber]

Oh wow I got Completionist+ by getting lucky!

All because I did the grind once!

Wow!

Like yes I know the achievement was bugged

[plucky hill]

the achievement has been fixed now

[ebon timber]

Yes

But also like

I look at the achievement and go "That's an accomplishment"

[peak warren]

still ignoring it though

[plucky hill]

you all keep acting like this makes the gold stake easier for other decks

it doesn't

[ebon timber]

You clearly have a different opinion.

Your opinion is not the one I care to discuss.

[peak warren]

the opinion that not everyone shares your opinion??

that's a fact dawg

[crude hornet]

our opinion is the whole point of discussion here

[plucky hill]

it just means we can skip the lower stakes (cause they're not challenging), it's just tedious to have to play through them all to get to the higher ones

[ebon timber]

Yes because there's literally nothing else of meaning I can add to that.

I am currently discussing about the stakes, not that people don't share my opinion.

I don't know what else to tell you.

[ebon timber]

Gold stake is tedious too!

The entire game is tedious!

[peak warren]

S

[ebon timber]

That's kinda the point

[plucky hill]

the other guy made the same point

that doesn't mean no effort can be made to reduce it

[ebon timber]

There's the save editor

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[crude hornet]

you keep trying to use the fact that you personally would be ok with spending 100s of hour to grind the game to support your opinion and somehow you think youre discussing the stakes?

like what does that even mean

[plucky hill]

I think I see both sides of this now 🤔

[ebon timber]

Idk you tell me

What you think

About me grinding the game

[peak warren]

okay

[crude hornet]

I literally do not care

[ebon timber]

Cool I literally do not care either LOL

[peak warren]

how does that say anything about anyone else

[plucky hill]

the people who don't want it are the completionists who don't see it necessary to skip stakes
the people who want it are us casuals who don't wanna shell out hundreds of hours on this
(and again we can solve both sides of this using something like this i have replied to)

yall still get your true 100% completion

[peak warren]

"i couldn't do a higher stake on another deck without doing white stake so nobody else should be able to"
"i like grinding so everyone should be forced to do it"

[plucky hill]

and we still get our low stake skips

[crude hornet]

I honestly would be fine with grinding every stake every deck for completionist

[peak warren]

i wouldn't even mind that but i'd like to be able to play gold stake on other decks

[crude hornet]

but its still stupid imo to force that on everyone if they just want to play gold stake

[livid schooner]

I think stakes should be globally unlocked, but the achievement should require all 120 wins

[crude hornet]

yeah that was a good idea

something like that

[peak warren]

seems like an effective compromise to me

[plucky hill]

i hope it's that easy

[plucky hill]

this would also help

the completionist+ achievement requiring wins on every stake every deck, that way it doesn't change in unlock difficulty from how it is now

i think that satisfies both sides

[hollow gazelle]

yea I think it does too

Its weird though because I actually believe that playing the game how it is now to get the achievement, will result in the player reaching it faster, rather than having a stake unlocked for every deck when its beaten on one.

like if you just play the game how it is now, versus what this chat is advocating for, youll actually get the 120 achievement quicker

[olive totem]

This sentiment baffles me. The idea that there is some linear path to learning just isn't true. Some people may very well need to play each and every Stake with each and every deck, but not all of us have to do that. Some people learn faster than others or play with more intent or focus. Some people are better at extrapolating from one play style to another. Some people have legacy experience from the deck builder genre which makes them better at intuiting the way to play most decks correctly.

This obsession with process and grind is just wrong. I agree that grind is a type of "difficulty" but I personally believe it is a type of difficulty that is not fun. I think the game is grindy enough without having to climb Stakes. I think that I am way more likely to be compelled to finish getting Gold on each deck if I just have to complete 15 hard sets than I am to go through every deck, grinding up to Gold. I literally suspect the total play time would go up, not down.

Also, I reiterate again, because no one seems to respond to this: the lower Stakes teach you BAD HABITS for the higher Stakes. Learning to play the lower Stakes does not necessarily prepare you well for the higher Stakes. When you take 1 discard and the $3 from the Small Blind away, the way you should be playing fundamentally changes in a way that is actually quite subtle. A lot of players might easily get caught in a play pattern that they are convinced is right because of prior success, even though the play pattern is wrong in higher Stakes.

[ebon timber]

No it does not LOL. If you think it does I think it speaks a lot about you as a player. No rewards from small blind is fine. The first one gets skipped more I think, but the rest follow the usual pattern of if the skip tag is better than interest + shop, sure, it gets skipped.

-1 discard is rough, but it incentivizes you to start making more optimal builds, (HC/Pair.)

The stakes are massive leaps in difficulty yes, but they all build off one another and prepare you for gold

It’s perfectly acceptable there are strategies that work on lower difficulties, that fail to work on higher difficulties

That’s the whole point of difficulty

If you get bodied on high stakes and you never once go “Wow I think I might need to change my approach to the game” - that is not a failure of the game, that is the very literal definition of skill issue.

[strange phoenix]

What he means is on low stakes the game essentially tells you “beat the game like this” and then says “lol no do it like that now” when you get to higher stakes. While the first strategy works, they should try to make the player learn the high stakes strategies over low stakes ones

I think

I have like 2 hours of playtime

[ebon timber]

The game slowly teaches you, (or rather—lets you learn), the way to win via its stakes. Once again, it’s perfectly acceptable that some strategies work at lower stakes, and not higher stakes. That is just an innate part of strategy games, and how difficultly works in video games.

As for learning high stage strategies, guess what? You do that by playing the game. That is the appeal of strategy games and roguelites is learning how to win.

I once again stress the same point I already made. If you get bodied on high stakes for trying to use ones that worked on low stakes, and never once go “Maybe I should try something different” - that is not the game’s fault. That is your fault, and that is called a skill issue.

[peak warren]

and your own insistence that climbing the stakes is necessary for each deck? also a skill issue

[ebon timber]

I also think it’s important to fundamentally understand and realize—losing is an important part of this game. Each loss and win serves as a way for you to learn more about what went well and what didn’t. If you can’t figure out anything that you could improve upon or did well, that is fundamentally a skill issue.

[ebon timber]

Do you have anything of note to add or are you just going to be annoying?

[peak warren]

you're doing the same thing with more words lmao

i'm just cutting to the chase

[high furnace]

woah
this sure is one toxic thread

[ebon timber]

So you’re not reading what I’m saying, got it.

[peak warren]

how is me calling your complaint a skill issue different from you calling theirs one? can you refute it?

[high furnace]

not sure what's worse, the hardcore players who want to keep it this way because it's what they're conventionally used to, or the casual players who somewhat miss the point of a progression system for difficulty

[ebon timber]

If you’re complaining that a strategy doesn’t work on higher difficulties, (because the game “teaches you bad habits”), yes, that is a skill issue.

The point of a strategy game is to y’know. Develop strategies for how you deal with specific scenarios. Not complain that what you used to do, (that worked on lower difficulties), no longer does.

[peak warren]

and complaining that gold stake is too hard if you haven't gone through the lower stakes isn't?

[ebon timber]

That is literally a skill issue

[high furnace]

didnt someone earlier say that the reason why the current stake system is a good thing because you develop good habits on lower stakes?

[peak warren]

so your objection to unlocking stakes for every deck is skill related and valid, but their complaint that lower stakes reward bad habits is skill related and invalid?

[ebon timber]

The OP has complained about bad habits, I haven’t seen anyone say good habits.

[high furnace]

i see

so then what exactly is your argument for not having gold stakes unlock for every deck again?

aside from "it's what I'm used to"

because face it- tradition isn't a very good reason for something to be the way it is

[vocal socket]

Things are getting pretty heated in here. There's pros and cons to both, however I side with not unlocking all the stakes with every deck. It adds a challenging replayability, like doing the 20 Acension levels on Slay the Spire with each class. I don't agree that you NEED to replay each stake to learn how to pilot the deck, but you get to experience the game more and IMO, helps you get better at it.

[ebon timber]

I have already agreed to a compromise. I am not going to have this exact same conservation I’ve had now four different times.

[high furnace]

fair enough

you can go ahead and not join, then

im still gonna talk because I personally havent had this conversation

[peak warren]

for what it's worth, that's why i'm inclined to agree with the idea that you could still make the completionist+ achievement require beating every deck on every stake; that way those players that only want to play on gold stake can, while people achievement chasing can feel good about the completion and it still incentivizes playing them all

[high furnace]

im sure im not saying anything new but to throw my own hat in the ring
the game's stake system could 100% use a bit of a redesign to allow for easier completion and cut down on the tedium that is constantly dying and restarting in the beginning
but I don't think that unlocking stakes directly for everything is the best way to do it, something about it just feels off (a very not solid argument, but I think we took out our foundations the moment 'skill issue' became an argument)

[peak warren]

there was a pretty good suggestion regarding that over at #1214122871316545586

[high furnace]

tedium and grind is not a very good way to implement difficulty, as it isn't a test of skill, but a test of patience and endurance

[high furnace]

ooh

[vocal socket]

Yeah, that's fair. I'd rather them do that than nerf a PvE game if people are having difficulty. I stopped playing Wildfrost after 100%ing it because they made it incredibly easy. Even their version of Ascension mode wasn't particularly challenging

Actually, how that I think about it, why don't the players who don't want to grind the stakes not just play on the unlocked everything mode?

I know you don't get achievements for it, but if they don't care about them and just want to play on gold stake without a bunch of repetition that's a good option

[high furnace]

probably a psychological thing

there's a point where people begin to think of it less as playing the game how they want to and more as "cheating the system"

some people would argue this would be cheating

[radiant gyro]

Coming from the board gaming world, the idea of playing this game without everything unlocked from the start is unintuitive. Like, can you imagine a game of "Wingspan" where you had to eg, win the game 10 times before you could "unlock" certain bird cards?

[olive totem]

You know, I have specifically avoided taking jabs at your ability to play the game. Can you please afford me the same courtesy. You have consistently come to this chat and been belligerent. Please calm it down.

I could easily say that your need to play every Stake with every deck is a "skill issue" but I haven't because I understand that that would be an insult to your skill, so I don't say it, because I don't think it would be helpful to the discussion. The game will not be ruined if my change is made, and it isn't ruined in its current state. There is no need for the discussion to get this heated.

[olive totem]

Its the achievements mainly, and we legitimately think this issue should be changed. In general, I literally see it as advocating against a mechanic that keeps showing up in games that I hate. I think the rogue-lite genre should move away from STS style Ascension systems that are tied to one character/deck. I keep seeing it and I think its bad.

That said, you are not bad for disagreeing lol <3.

Like I literally think it is a bad design. If I had to add moral weight to it, I would say that it is wasting people's time arbitrarily, but I understand that that is weird argument to make about a time wasting hobby.

[radiant gyro]

Can you try to explain why achievements are so important to you? Speaking as someone who has never really sought them out, I have a kind of anthropological curiosity about it.

(ie, you don't need to convince me that they are important to you, I take your word for it. But I am curious to hear more about why and how they are important to people that care about them)

[rustic bay]

its just fun to get achievements lol and its annoying when one of them is almost impossible to get

not impossible but very very very time consuming for no reason

[tidal hinge]

Same opinion

[ebon timber]

SAM is free to use, if it bothers people that much.

[tidal hinge]

I think it's fun to go for all achievements. I don't mind if they require some skill. But making them so time consuming makes them really annoying, which is unfortunate for the game

[tidal hinge]

Where's the fun in that

[ebon timber]

There isn’t but if you want to get it without the time investment the option is there

[ebon timber]

I think something like Completionist++ is fine where it stands because it’s meant to be a testiment of skill

[tidal hinge]

well, I want to have fun with the game, not simply put a checkmark on my list "balatro all achievements: ✅"

[ebon timber]

I don’t see people complaining about Transient achievement in StS, (kill something with 999 hp in six turns), or NecroDancer’s Coda, (can’t touch gold, double speed, die in a single hit/missed beat, starting dagger only), or Everhood’s no hit incinerator or dev gnomes, (both of which are insanely hard fights)

All of which are achievements with insane time requirements to get that good at the game

I don’t see how that’s any different here

[tidal hinge]

Not sure what are you trying to prove tho. If people complain, it IS a problem. It does not matter what other games do and how people react there

Maybe the people who are like me never even get past 1 hour in those games

so they don't get a chance to complain about harder achievements

[ebon timber]

I’m pointing out other games that have achievements with high time and skill requirements

[tidal hinge]

See, my point is, people DO complain here

it does not matter what other games do and how their players react

it seems to be something that's bugging some people, so writing it off as nonsense, because in your fav games nobody complains about such things - is silly, in my opinion

[ebon timber]

Lol ok

Whatever you say :)

[regal snow]

I think the main reason isn't necessarily because there are only 3 characters, but because they're so different

Like if I get to A20 on Ironclad, then start playing silent, I have a whole new playstyle and card pool to learn

whereas the decks in Balatro are all kind of different, but they have a lot more in common than they have that distinguishes them as compared to StS characters

so when you go back to red stake on a brand new deck, it feels less like you're exploring a cool new character and more like you're redoing the challenges youve done before with a slight twist

[tidal hinge]

black, painted, green and plasma decks exist

they feel quite different from the other decks

[regal snow]

True, and that's a valid point

but even the most different decks in Balatro are more similar to one another than, say, Ironclad and Silent are

[tidal hinge]

I think, once you win a run on base difficulty though, you should get the feeling of deck's advantages/disadvantages. In higher stakes, the gameplay is completely different, because low hands are more consistent, because you need more scaling earlier, because misplays are run killers. Whatever deck teaches you on low stakes, does not necessarily apply to higher stakes, that was a point brought up earlier, as well

[vocal socket]

That's fair. I'm not much of an achievement hunter but my brother is, and I know how frustrated he gets when say, a fighting game, forces him to win 5000 rounds or whatever. On the plus side, IIRC none of the Jokers etc are locked behind Purple/Orange/Gold stakes, with the exception of the Erratic deck locked behind one Orange stake win. I get that unlocking these achievements comes with the price of grinding, but does that not make them worth it? Like the complete all Challenges had a 0.1% of players earned rate on Steam last time I checked.

[tidal hinge]

completing all challenges at least was fun, for the most part

This is my current progress, for example

White stake finished on all decks, Gold on Yellow and Pained, Blue stake on Red, Blue, Green, Black and Magic decks so far, currently grinding a bit on the nebula deck

I won't call this that much fun, personally

Challenges got that different flavor for every separate challenge

grinding stakes does not have it

it feels the same between decks 🤷

[vocal socket]

Just out of curiousity, is it Completion+ or Completion++ that's causing the most frustration? Completion++ seems INSANE whereas I'd rather just beat all decks on Gold Stake haha

[tidal hinge]

It's both, but I'd say Completion+ seems like the biggest grind

[peak warren]

++ seems like the biggest grind, most of it is going to rely on negative joker rng

[tidal hinge]

++ you can at least do on your fav deck

[peak warren]

yeah but it's even more luck-based than being able to gold stake every deck

[tidal hinge]

that's fair enough I guess

[peak warren]

you have to find each joker and then be able to actually use it for the final boss

[tidal hinge]

or find it as negative 😹

[peak warren]

so you can't sell it for leaf

yeah which is an extra layer of rng 😭

[tidal hinge]

true

both are pretty annoying

[vocal socket]

Turning the achievement hunters against each other was not the plan hahaha. I get it though, both have pros and cons. Grinding a deck you HATE sucks all the joy out of it, but I can also imagine grinding Legendary jokers etc to be bothersome too

[peak warren]

but those achievements are, I think, a separate issue from the stake unlocks

[tidal hinge]

getting blue stake on black deck was indeed HELL

[regal snow]

i think it's much easier to win every bad deck with good jokers than win every bad joker with a good deck

there's just way more bad jokers

and you're relying on shop RNG rather than selecting the deck at the start of your run

[vocal socket]

That's a great point

[tidal hinge]

I think they are connected - because of the achievements people try the gold stakes, but once they realise the amounts of grind needed - they find the stake unlocks pretty unfun

at least that was the case for me

[peak warren]

yeah I think separate wasn't correct wording, it's more of a different axis of problem that intersects

and can be tweaked separately

[tidal hinge]

yeah true

like making completionist+ and ++ not require gold stake

😹

but then the name does not really fit

[regal snow]

i also think another problem is that, as a community, we actually don't know how hard gold stake is

since the game has only been out for like 3 weeks

[ebon timber]

Yes we do

3 weeks is a lot of time

[tidal hinge]

game's got to infinite score in like 3 days 😭

[regal snow]

there's a lot of space to develop heuristics and game knowledge that probably haven't been found yet

[ebon timber]

There was like 250k copies sold within the first week

[tidal hinge]

I think so far from gold stake runs we know that low hands are much more powerful, because of consistency

[ebon timber]

It has been long enough a meta has already been found and made to beat gold stake

[tidal hinge]

but I don't think there's much more to find, tbh

[regal snow]

im not saying we know nothing, we know a lot about the game obviously

[ebon timber]

.

[regal snow]

and its possible(maybe even likely) theres nothing more to find out

[tidal hinge]

I think what they're trying to say that there could be some strats to find in the future

[ebon timber]

Not until a content update I think

[regal snow]

but i think theres still a chance good players can find different strats

[regal snow]

yeah that statement was too strong on my part, my bad

[ebon timber]

Or something that changes the current meta

[tidal hinge]

I think that's kinda unlikely, because the game's been in demo state for a while, and we've got most of the niche mechanics and approaches figured out

[regal snow]

yeah its possible

i would just want to wait for the dust to settle a little more before i made a call that strong

though you could be completely corect

[zinc dune]

The issue is that it's much more than 150 hours. As I mentioned above, it's going to be a minimum of 140 successful runs to beat the entire game. When most runs take over an hour, and many more than that are losses, I'd give the average player about 3-4 hours per successful win on a higher difficulty. That means it's 490 hours to complete the "pinnacle" content of the game. The change suggested in this post, at the same win rate would lower that number to... oh, look at that: 147 hours.

[ebon timber]

There is no way all runs take an hour.

[hollow gazelle]

^

[ebon timber]

If you are spending an hour on a winning run, you likely would've won 20-30 minutes ago, and you're just minmaxing

Or you're going deep into endless

[hollow gazelle]

regardless, I still dont think its such a bad thing that you gotta dump hours to 100% the game

100%ing a game is a premium

[vocal socket]

I'm pretty sure the fastest run I did was 20 minutes with a brainless supernova high card/skip joker deck on white stake

[ebon timber]

My runs take me like 30 minutes tops

[vocal socket]

Is that time above including failed runs too

[ebon timber]

It is not hard to look at a shop or hand and go "that's not what I need"

[hollow gazelle]

If youre playing fast they wont take an hour, plus as you play the game more youll recognize failing runs faster

[vocal socket]

Sorry, just saw you said minimum

[ebon timber]

I'm talking about successful since that's the implication of Qubit's message

[regal snow]

how are you frequently having runs that take over an hour?

if you quit after taking ante 8 i think the average winning run should take much less time than that

like half the time

[ebon timber]

I can't comment on 3-4 hours between successful runs, I could believe that for gold stake, but not something like purple

[regal snow]

maybe they calculate different lines by hand rather than using an online calculator or something like that, and that takes up the extra time

[ebon timber]

You do not need to calculate each and every hand

[regal snow]

agreed

but if you are it could add a lot of extra time

[ebon timber]

There is no way the average player is calculating each and every hand

[zinc dune]

I do like endless, I usually give it a shot every time, since I still haven't beaten stake 16 yet.

In my last post I am clearly talking about time between "successful win on a higher difficulty" for an average player. It is of course an average and an estimate, but I'm currently at the halfway point on difficulty on a few decks and it's taking me a few hours before I beat a new stake usually. (Again, that's including endless mode and also going for the occasional unlock.)

Personally I think endless mode is fun, often they are really boring in roguelikes but in this one it's really rewarding to try to push for just one more ante. If you think the optimal way to play the game is to just grind each deck and play as fast of a game as possible instead of just enjoying it that's fine. But I think about 70% of players are likely more similar to me than you in terms of playstyle (judging by the amount of upvotes on this post).

I rarely calculate lines by hand. When I do it's usually just for hands where it's close and I'm not sure of which Joker order is best or something like that. Usually I have a pretty good estimate of my current hand's strength and whether it will win.
.

Regardless, I think the upvotes make it clear that a change should be made. I think either they need to make it more satisfying to unlock new stakes or just let players play the highest stake unlocked on any deck. The Completionist+ achievement, I agree, should probably include a requirement to beat every stake on every deck, and have a nice way to graphically see which you have beaten. (Thank you @plucky hill #1209737559299596349 message)

This is not a change that I think makes THE GAME easier. Beating a gold stake on a deck is the same difficulty. With a slight change to the wording of Completionist+, it doesn't make THE ACHIEVEMENTS easier either. So what's the reasoning for the change? It would make the game more fun for the average player. If you are arguing against this change, you are likely not the average player.

I don't think this change makes the game LESS FUN for non-average players.

[ebon timber]

1. I am not the average player. I literally have 113 hours in this game, and 60 between two of the demos. I am not the average player by any means.
2. Once again, I don't think the average player will spend an hour on a run regardless. I could see it at the start of playing Balatro, but by the point you are actively attempting gold stake, I would say you no longer fall under the umbrella of average player. I do not see the average player looking at gold stake and actually trying to beat it unless you're a completionist, or, not the average player. I know this, because I asked two of my friends who I would say are the average player and both of them agree, gold stake is overkill, and they likely wouldn't even try gold stake. So the entire stake argument is just for people who aren't the average player, and mostly completionists.

The hardest difficulty in the game is not a casual thing by any means.

I could see them doing it once, maybe twice, and going "Yeah gold stake isn't fun"

And for the people who do want the achievements, they're going to do it anyways so what does the change even effect? Nothing!

Also to further reinforce the point I'm not the average player, here's my StS information

I have all the achievements, which means I beat the game on a20

I can say, with absolute certainty, the average player will not bother with gold stake

They will do it once, maybe even twice and decide it's not fun and play low stakes

[zinc dune]

I agree that the gold stake is likely not going to be reached or beaten by the average player. But with this change that might be possible! Also, we shouldn't just be talking about gold stake here. This same logic applies to all stakes. As someone who has beaten black stake with 1 deck, I think it would be more fun to try to beat the next stake with a different deck. One I have played, understand some of the concepts and strategies for, but I've only beaten white with that deck. Variety is the spice of life. And the spice of this game. The other spice of this game is unlocks. To make more progress I essentially have to grind one deck (I think the same deck gets boring after a while). Or I can switch decks, but then I don't get to try for that next deck unlock.

The current system encourages a player to unlock a bunch of content all at the beginning by playing white and playing many different decks, until the last few unlocks remaining are only to get new decks, which are locked behind higher blinds. Those are some of the coolest decks as well! But the best way to get to that content is by picking the easiest deck and playing only that for 2+ weeks. Which also means that it's DISCOURAGING the player to play that cool new deck they just unlocked, because that one is on white stake, and you're not going to unlock anything new by playing it.

I also think that I wouldn't immediately jump to a high difficulty with a new deck until I've tried it a few times and understand how it works. Perhaps other changes (such as the default selection for the deck favoring the lowest stake you haven't beaten yet) could discourage a player from, for example, choosing to play the Anaglyph deck on Blue difficulty the very first time they use it.

P.S. I haven't played much StS, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like it's not required to beat A20 with every character in order to get all the achievements?

[crude hornet]

it isnt

just one

[ebon timber]

In order to get all the achievements you have to play all the characters.

It's not required, but it makes a lot of them easier to use different characters.

Actually

It is required to beat all characters at least once

Not on a20, but you are required to win with every single character at least once to get Eternal One, (get all achievements)

There are also a lot of character-specific achievements

Most of which, I got on the way to a20

[zinc dune]

*Gasp* Doesn't sound like the StS devs are very hardcore then! 😂 Almost like they wouldn't even include a Completionist+ achievement, and instead would have just put in an achievement for beating Gold Stake once, with one deck... /s

In reality, they're very different games, with a different audience. There is a huge amount of depth to the different characters in StS that just isn't the case in Balatro. Besides, the content and aesthetics alone means that Balatro is going to reach a generally more casual playerbase.

From your last comments, it also sounds like StS does a very good job of encouraging players to play their many characters, without asking them to get sidelined into playing just one until they beat A20 with it.

[radiant gyro]

Suggestion: There should be an achievement for using the "Unlock All" feature in the settings. 😈

[ebon timber]

There is an achievement for killing an enemy with 999 health in 6 turns, before it auto-dies

I would say that is the closest to Completionist+/++ in StS

But also once again, my point again.

The casual player of this game will try gold stake once or twice, and stop playing gold stake and stick to purely low stakes.

The people who genuinely care enough to play gold stake are not the casual players.

I can agree it saves time ultimately, but the people who genuinely care about Completionist+/++ are going to play all the stakes anyways

So we have a net-neutral time save anyways, (or maybe net-positive, if you decide to play gold first and work down to easier difficulties)

[zinc dune]

I think you missed my point about how it's not just Gold Stake that is affected by this change. #1209737559299596349 message

Also I don't care about saving time, my comments make that clear. I believe this change optimizes for fun.

[ebon timber]

Yes, but the stakes I see casual players playing at are not effected by this.

I could see a casual player going up to black, at most.

Like sure I guess it saves some time, but like, the casual player would probably still start at white instead of going straight to black

The genuinely fun stake to play on is white

Anything above white is not fun to play

[zinc dune]

Really, re-read my post. Your last responses have completely missed every point I am making. Balatro encourages you to play and beat Orange Stake by locking fun decks away behind that requirement. I think it would be more fun to allow me to choose from whatever deck I'd enjoy the most to beat the next stake difficulty. Instead the game encourages me to play the same deck until I beat Orange Stake. At that point, yeah, I'll probably just play White Stake. And you highlighted the difference in achievement structure perfectly with Slay The Spire, by saying that in that game the achievements actually encourage playing multiple different characters. Since this game clearly does the opposite, I think it should be obvious that a change should be made. Anyways, I gotta meet a friend for dinner, bye!

[olive totem]

This is gonna be funny to you maybe, but I actually don't care about achievements either. I'm speaking about it for other people who are on my side and want the achievement. For me, I simply want to be in a state of the game that doesn't basically declare that you pressed the cheater button.

But more seriously, I simply think the Stake system being deck to deck is a bad design. I really do. I think it is a mark on an otherwise elegant game. I also generally do not like this type of time sink progression in other games, and I feel like the more games that move away from this type of "progression", the better. If I can come to a game and play it at the highest level, that should be my prerogative, and i shouldn't have to remove all of the other progression that is fun, such as unlocking Jokers, to do that.

[olive totem]

I wish I could ban you from my post. You clog the chat with responses and you are rude.

[ebon timber]

Womp womp womp

Sorry you hate people who think differently I guess?

[olive totem]

No, I don't hate you. I despise your attitude and the venom you bring to this conversation. Please learn to control yourself. I know you're probably a kid or w/e, but you need to learn to not dominate the chat.

[ebon timber]

Sorry you hate people with ADHD, I guess?

Like I cannot write walls

You’re in a public server

[olive totem]

Adhd doesn't make you insult people. Just calm down kid.

[ebon timber]

Don’t call me a kid.

[strange phoenix]

Who brought up ADHD

[olive totem]

Look, I can see you are passionate about this but sometimes your responses are harsh, and maybe not everyone you disagree with needs an immediate response.

[strange phoenix]

I have it too don’t use it as a excuse for your actions please

[ebon timber]

@strange phoenix

[strange phoenix]

I don’t have full context but I don’t like bringing up “but I have adhd”

[ebon timber]

It’s over “clog the chat”

[olive totem]

Be honest. Do you really think that comment shows any bigotry to people with ADHD?

[ebon timber]

I don't know, nor do I really care LOL. You're telling me to not clog the chat

That is not how I think at all nor respond online at all

[strange phoenix]

He does not know how you think

You are text on a screen here

[ebon timber]

Yes and I'm going to bring that up regardless

[strange phoenix]

We all are

[vocal socket]

Just for future reference as I know you said you don't play much StS, but that achievement isn't hard compared to some other deckbuilders. Infinites are pretty common if you know what you're looking for. Not to be pedantic, but there's an "obtain all other achievements" achievement for StS which is more akin to Completionist++, but I only mention that because some of the other achievements require grinding like beating the game in under 20 minutes or with a single relic.

[radiant gyro]

That makes good sense. I'm playing on an "unlock all" account, and for me the intuitive challenge to set for myself is to beat White Stake across all the decks, then Red Stake, and so on. As others have attested, sticking with a single deck while the difficulty changes is a lot drier than playing different decks across the same difficulty.

[glass swift]

I just wanna play all the difficulties on all the decks without having to grind for an absurd amount of time, and without being a cheater. By the definition in some past comments I am no casual as I play the high difficulties, but I don't have the reasonable time to do all the deck difficulties over again. Unfortunately real life responsibilities are real and video game unlocks are not 🤷

[regal snow]

yeah i think common sense or no relics is much harder than killing transient

you don't even need an infinite to do it, technically

you can do it with stuff that shows up in normal runs pretty often like nightmare catalyst, looping limit breaks, cooking a dark orb, etc. etc.

[vocal socket]

Yeah, for sure. I just meant that was the easiest way haha. The first thing that came to mind was strength scaling and Heavy Blade, but at least people are familiar with infinites as opposed to StS jargon

[regal snow]

very true

[vocal socket]

IMO achievements meant something back before cheating was common place. My brother legitimately achieved the Fall Guys 5 in a row one, but its not that rare due to how flooded that game was with cheaters

So some people probably didn't actually earn the Completionist++ achievement in Balatro but it's easier just to say "nice" and move on to save an argument

[olive totem]

I mean, achievements mean very little to me, unless its an achievement that is kind of a fun challenge. Thats what I liked so much about the Joker unlocks in this game. I could actually care less about achievements, but I do generally want this change to happen because I think it is correct and more fun.

Also, I know I can press the unlock all button, but I actually want to unlock all the things myself. I just think this particular unlock is too onerous in a way that isn't fun, where as an unlock like "Discard 5 Jokers", while hard and time consuming to achieve, is fun and weird and encourages a different style of play. I don't think grinding ranks adds that type of lateral gameplay. In fact, it actually encourages a steadily narrower and more honed approach to gameplay. Honing your technique can be fun too, of course, but if I've already honed my strategies once, I don't wanna then go back and play baby-mode for 60 play throughs.

[candid pewter]

I love me my rhythm games and can play them at high difficulties. I've 100% quit playing rhythm games that require me to unlock upper difficulties for each song by beating them on the easiest difficulties first. Those easy charts get so. Damn. Tedious.

I think OP's arguments about the stake system make a ton of sense!

[crude hornet]

thats actually a really good comparison 👍

[knotty saffron]

by all means I think this would just be much more sensible for progression but I would agree that it may not be neccesary since you can just unlock all on a different profile and go beat gold stakes there

you don't have to pick either or with access to multiple profiles

[south delta]

that might be a nice balance but I feel like 1 is too few, 2 would probably be a little more reasonable

or make accessible stake for all increase by 1 for every 4? 5? stakes you best above white?

it's a challenging balance, you either have too much of a grind or leave players unprepared for gold on other decks

[olive totem]

Yea, I think the two choices are to make Stakes universally unlocked or to keep it the way it is. Anything else is too complicated for this game. The game is very elegant and simple. If you add something wonky like that, it will stand out and feel too janky for a simple game like this.

[sullen glen]

I really wish there was a global unlock for gold stake on all decks once you beat it on any deck at least once. If you have everything but the last 2 completionist achievements, you're just looking at 90 hours of playtime playing runs that don't even contribute to anything to then have to replay the game on gold stake dozens of times.

Ascension grinding was the most tedious feature of Slay the Spire

[ashen lantern]

Isn't there already a button to."unlock everything"

Or did I dream that

[sullen glen]

it does disable achievements, which means if you want to get one for beating it on every deck on the highest difficulty, you're subject to a slog of doing hundreds of runs on lower difficulties