glacial marsh
Recent discourse makes it clear that the ambiguity of debuff is unclear and there's no way to look at debuffed as a condition until you are against a boss that provides it.
Addition by Flutter Tree
i just think when hovering over a card thats disabled that jokers flash a red colour or something to show that it wont work with it or an x above it
sterile shadow
*Recent
yea i agree that debuffed’s description is a bit ambiguous
i know how it works by experience
but by looking at it, i can understand why some people may get confused
boreal crater
i will add that jokers like hit the road dont work aswell since that was the talk.
glacial marsh
But new player onboarding should be as clear as poss
sterile shadow
yep
boreal crater
and also that because disabled cards work as hands that the game teaches you that disabled cards work for jokers but then it doesnt at the same time some times
its the only reason i started that talk because i just asumed hit the road would work with a disabled jack because hand jokers work
sterile shadow
a hand isnt an ability
boreal crater
yeah but the card counts as a jack for the hand which means its still a jack acording to the hands in the game
glacial marsh
Card has a Rank, a Suit, and a Beacon that says 'hey effects, I exist'. When debuffed, the beacon is off, but it's still a jack of clubs or whatever
sterile shadow
Card has a Rank, a Suit, and a Beacon that says 'hey effects, I exist'. When deb...
good analogy
boreal crater
yeah it still a jack of clubs unless its for a joker. tbh i feel like thats abit inconsistant with the hand stuff but making it clear should help
boreal crater
i just think when hovering over a card thats disabled that jokers flash a red colour or something to show that it wont work with it or an x above it
sterile shadow
that’s more obscure
cuz that’s implying that the entire joker would be disabled which isnt the case
boreal crater
imean the fact that a jack is both a jack and not a jack for jokers is confusing
sterile shadow
i get your confusion
alpine ember
maybie a feature that hovering over a joker shows cards that could work for its effect?
boreal crater
and if someone were to play with that joker first then they might just asume that hands dont work either
because the joker that cared about a jack didnt count it as a jack so it would imply that it also doesnt count as a jack for hands
sterile shadow
maybie a feature that hovering over a joker shows cards that could work for its ...
i dont think that solves the current problem unfortunately
boreal crater
yeah that would require the player to hover their mouse over the joker which is less likely than cards in their hand
alpine ember
theres no easy fix eh
sterile shadow
instead of an obscure indicator, we need to reword the description of the debuffed cards to be more clear
boreal crater
the best you can do it something with hovering over the cards or selecting them since its the most like. common thing you do in the game
glacial marsh
An example first boss on the tutorial seed wouldn't hurt. Jimbo gives you a Gluttonous Joker and makes you play a flush or something as a scripted event
boreal crater
also people have the issue of not reading and skipping through things
alpine ember
*also people have the issue of not reading and skipping through things*
thats a peaple problem
boreal crater
thats a peaple problem
gotta design around it still
sterile shadow
that’s still a people problem
boreal crater
yeah and its still something you have to design around
sterile shadow
welp
boreal crater
its why games will normaly have text + exsample
and the tutorial can do an exsample but you would still have the issues of inconsistancy
alpine ember
my motto, silly peaple will be silly peaple, if they shoot themselfs in the foot, its on them not you
sterile shadow
wdym by inconsistency
boreal crater
disabled jack works for hands but hit the road it doesnt
game teaches you that disabled cards count as cards in a suit
but then you have something like that that says that disabled cards dont count
alpine ember
disabled stops scoring and stops joker effects iirc?
boreal crater
if a joker said *3 club its easier to be like "yeah clubs are disabled that does nothing"
sterile shadow
disabled jack works for hands but hit the road it doesnt
assume the blind obscure the debuffed jack’s identity from the jokers. the blind can see it’s a jack, but your jokers can’t. the jokers can still see what hand you played
boreal crater
assume the blind obscure the debuffed jack’s identity from the jokers. the blind...
yeah but the only way your ever going to find it out is if you do it and because the jokers that care about hands still work..
sterile shadow
yeah but the only way your ever going to find it out is if you do it and because...
that’s literally what i said…
your jokers can’t see that it’s a jack
the blind can, which makes it work for hands
the problem we have here that the description doesn’t explain this clearly enough
any ideas for a clear description
it has to be as clear as possible
but it cannot be very long as well
boreal crater
its why im going with ui instead of text since easier to understand if the ui is telling you off compared to reading
alpine ember
if a joker cares if its a pair it sees its a pair but not what makes up the pair, it checks what the blind you played is and not the cards that was played is, it cant see cards
sterile shadow
i have to go soon, ill be back maybe with a good description for debuffed cards idk
boreal crater
i still think having a card flash when hoveredover
tbh you hover over a disabled card. it flashes along with the joker that it would normaly work with
sterile shadow
its why im going with ui instead of text since easier to understand if the ui is...
i don’t see how ui can display how debuffed cards work, itll require a bunch of elements
boreal crater
you just have the cards themselves do something which is also something a new player would do which is. hovering hand over cards or clicking them
sterile shadow
tbh you hover over a disabled card. it flashes along with the joker that it woul...
that is obscure due to it can potentially imply that the entire joker is disabled when you play this card
boreal crater
and the game then draws attention to the joker or card in question by blinking or having an x on it
sterile shadow
that is obscure due to it can potentially imply that the entire joker is disable...
which isnt the case
boreal crater
well yeah it would be confusing but atleast its drawing your eyes to the cards in question
sterile shadow
that’s a band aid solution
boreal crater
tbh it could work all the time and when it wont work it flashes another colour
sterile shadow
it doesn’t truly solve the problem
ill have to go fr
ill be back with an reworded description for debuffed cards if i can think of one by then
heading out
boreal crater
enjoy your whatever your doing
regal hill
Wouldn't "no suit, rank or abilities outside of choosing poker hand" suffice?
Or "treated as blank outside of choosing poker hand" would work
Less wordy at the expense of intuitiveness
boreal crater
maybe but i feel like you would still end up falling for hit the road not working with discarding a disabled card
regal hill
How
It's not choosing a poker hand
boreal crater
yeah but your also not using/playing the card either
regal hill
Then again people think Four of a Kind should count for Spare Trousers so maybe i'm not the right demographic for this
Meaning you're not choosing it for a poker hand
it's all-encompassing
regal hill
Yeah, the consensus is Spare Trousers should see "two pairs" when looking at Four of a Kind
But "two pairs" is not the poker hand Two Pair (which is specifically two different pairs of ranks)
boreal crater
"if played hand contains" is trio + spare trousers
so techicly spare trousers should work since it does contain a 2 pair
maybe its just an issue with cards being inconsistant x.x
regal hill
It does not contain Two Pair, it just contains two pairs
boreal crater
yeah and trio works with fullhouse. it contains 3 pair
regal hill
Because Three of a Kind is present in a Full House
boreal crater
yeah and two pair is tecnicly present in 4 of a kind
regal hill
A Full House is three cards of one rank, and two cards of another different rank
A Three of a Kind is three cards of one rank
boreal crater
btw i also agree it shouldnt work but thats just an issue with the wording
because they both have the same wording so they should both work the same
regal hill
I disagree since in in-game description for the hand Two Pair specifically states different ranks
Again, Trousers looks for Two Pair, not two pairs
but that's going off topic from what's being discussed here, so let's get back to debuffs once we're done
boreal crater
game should just have more consistancy in text.
regal hill
It's entirely consistent, it's just not intuitive
since four cards of the same rank =/= 2 pairs of cards with different ranks
boreal crater
so techicly if the 2 other cards are disabled would trousers work
regal hill
Unsure, probably doesn't
boreal crater
i think it would work but techicly it shouldnt work acording to current things
regal hill
Since at that point it just sees two blank cards, which aren't a pair at all
they're just empty
boreal crater
starting to think jokers should just always work with disabled cards even if its like x3 nothing
since im going that superpostion doesnt work with a disabled ace but would work if its another card thats disabled
to asume*
slow igloo
pants do work even if some cards are debuffed. it only cares about the ranks
boreal crater
im on about if 2 of the 4 cards are disabled.
slow igloo
it still works
regal hill
Gotcha
regal hill
So a half-debuffed Four of a Kind doesn't count
because it still sees a Four of a Kind and not Two Pair
slow igloo
if ace is disabled
that's actually an interesting question - a rare case where a joker mentions both a straight AND a specific card
i think it still procs, because it doesn't give the tarot when the Ace itself is triggered, just after the whole hand is played