#Daily Discussion #3 - Brainstorming 6-Card Hands And Beyond

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wicked rivet
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It's a "brainstorm", but it's just for fun, not necessarily for any practical purpose, unless you want to count modding in the future.

Balatro caps the playable poker hand size at 5 cards, meaning there's design space for mods to create 6-card hands.

New hands, planets, Jokers, gameplay, and strategies are all on the table. And we can go beyond 6 cards as well!

As always, suggest future topics if you want, and let me know about your time zone preferences and we'll try to work something out.

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Sorry it's a little late, I had plans.

visual walrus
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if this is ever introduced, it should be by way of negative cards

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via modding obv

vale rover
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the simplest and most "vanilla" way to add 6-card hands to balatro would be to simply... count whichever 5 cards make the highest tier of hand

dusty wave
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My thoughts exactly

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This would make straight flush and flush house more viable

dense mantle
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Yep

vale rover
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if you did that, you could score more cards with each hand, without worrying about new planets

dusty wave
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Other hand types could be cosmetic bonuses, but they would be so rare such as not to be worth their own planet/scaling

vale rover
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plus all the "contains" jokers get more powerful

dense mantle
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That aside, I would try to at least allowing for no limit on discards first

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No 5 cards limit for discard

vale rover
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thats feasible, its actually almost what the mail joker ended up being

dense mantle
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One crazy idea is making a joker out of a normal card and that card always counts in the final scoring hand

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Like, a spectral card effect that reads "Put a card in hand into Joker slot, it always gets scored in a played hand"

vale rover
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i liked shadowbulbs concept of a joker allowing stone cards to not count against the 5-card limit

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great stone joker synergy

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so many chips lmao

dense mantle
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So there is a chance that you can make an entire hand on your joker slots without even playing a card (technically you still have to play at least 1 card though)

dusty wave
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That idea could also work with consumable slots

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Those are bought and used/sold more often so playing cards might be better there instead of in a joker slot

dense mantle
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The range is so big though

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Imagine putting a glass ace onto your joker slot

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It upgrades any high ace into at least a pair, and x1.5 Mult to boot

dusty wave
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I like the idea

dense mantle
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imagine having all 5 joker slots being glass aces

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Very unlikely though, but it's an idea

vale rover
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playing cards in joker/consumable slots is a cool idea

glass mason
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and its a viable reason for negative cards to exist (yeah im here now)

dense mantle
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Having that effect being spectral is also neat as well, cuz I think it's not gonna be easy to balance

glass mason
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meh maybe 2 cards is balanced enough

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you have to have space to shove them somewhere

dense mantle
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What I mean is the chance it shows up and how much control you have over it when it happens

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I feel like it's gonna be broken as heck if the stars aligned

glass mason
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im not exactly sure how likely which cards are rarer than others

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but i do know its dependent on the seed so

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i think just "select up to 2 cards"

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like yeah you can shove a glass card if you want

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but since it technically triggers it has a chance to break

wicked rivet
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and cards not part of the poker hand don't score unless they're stone

vale rover
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yeah, it'd either require splash to function nicely or include splash's effect

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neither option is great

wicked rivet
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5 cards are the same suit, 5 cards are the straight

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never thought of that

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Daily Discussion #3 - Brainstorming 6-Card Hands

vale rover
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the 'cards in consumable/joker slots' idea seems to be an elegant way to allow extra cards to always score

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and also gives a nice limit

rapid lava
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Jumbo Jimbo--You may play up to 7 cards, score all poker hand types a played hand contains--takes two joker slots

wicked rivet
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oh yeah, there was a similar suggestion i found that poker hands with <5 cards gain an extra temporary Ace of Spades

wicked rivet
vale rover
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ace up your sleeve

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really thematic as well

wicked rivet
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ye it was a good idea

glass mason
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the thing with "you can now play up to N cards" without a clear explanation, its very easy to think that you can make new hand types

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such as 3pair

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or 2-3oaK

wicked rivet
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that would be one of the more fun things to do

glass mason
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mhm

wicked rivet
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you could also just have an entire modded game mode where 6-card hands are default

glass mason
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thatd be crazy

mild portal
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Joker idea: Mentally insane joker: +30 mult if hand contains 6 of a kind

glass mason
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heres something chaotic

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*play entire held hand, poker hand will always be highcard"

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and give it some weird condition or smth

fossil gust
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what I miss

vale rover
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Backread it

wicked rivet
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u miss 69 messages (nice)

vale rover
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Nice

glass mason
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not nice

fossil gust
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boo

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I dontnwanna read

glass mason
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it wasn't that much tbh

wicked rivet
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pretend it's your book

vale rover
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he doesnt even read his book

glass mason
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we didn't even talk about trip2pair until i got here

wicked rivet
fossil gust
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My book is way more interestingnthen reading what you say

glass mason
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jimbo dies (the end)

wicked rivet
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well im not summarizing it

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anyway, special hands?

glass mason
wicked rivet
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im guessing every card still scores in that?

glass mason
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ues

wicked rivet
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even if still high card type

glass mason
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ues

wicked rivet
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might be interesting to try out once or twice

vale rover
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how about a joker that scores all cards held in hand

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slightly different

fossil gust
wicked rivet
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actually maybe it'd be cool to have a mod banking ideas that are only good to play a few times and people just cycle through them as they play runs

glass mason
wicked rivet
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did i?

vale rover
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twas i

glass mason
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nvm

wicked rivet
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different blue name lol

fossil gust
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I didnt read

glass mason
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pish posh

dusty wave
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6+ card hands:

  • can make combination hands like straight flush and flush house more viable
  • probably shouldn’t introduce new hand types (but could)
  • Blake chillin’ came up with the idea of a spectral card that places playing cards in joker slots
  • scoring all contained hand types was also thrown around as an idea
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I probably missed something important

wicked rivet
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very generous of u

glass mason
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i think 6oaK is passable

dusty wave
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Just add bonuses to XoaK for extra cards

fossil gust
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I think oaks are out of the question

dusty wave
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Like X1.5 mult for each additional card matching a combination or something

glass mason
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stuff like fullerhouse, trip2pair and pair-of-trips are out for sure tho

wicked rivet
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it's interesting to me that people are even thinking about a vanilla-feeling version that excludes bonus hands. i would not have thought this way myself

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very cool

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^ very fool

fossil gust
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Im very cool!

stoic frost
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Don't worry I wont stay I just came to say how are we not talking about 6oaK and looooong straight yet? I'm with evab

dusty wave
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I think if I were to add secret hands for 6 cards, they would be:

  • 6oak
  • 3x2 (triggered for two 3oak and three pair)
  • straights with 6 cards
wicked rivet
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lol

dusty wave
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Just read my mind

vale rover
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lol

fossil gust
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regular straight already hard enoug

vale rover
fossil gust
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plus then 4 finger

glass mason
stoic frost
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And Full Manor (3oak + 3oak)

glass mason
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Full manor fits better for 4oak+pair

wicked rivet
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overcrowded house

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house party

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the comb?

stoic frost
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Basement suite

glass mason
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also i think we should name 6card flush/straights straaaaaaight/fluuuuuuuush

vale rover
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a "curvy" instead of a straight that goes up then down

stoic frost
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Sorry carry on 🙂

fossil gust
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since we have fish I dont like 6oak

dusty wave
fossil gust
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imo 1 or other

glass mason
wicked rivet
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hey look it's 3 pair

vale rover
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3pair woo!

glass mason
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lmao

fossil gust
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lol

wicked rivet
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PAIR STRAIGHT

glass mason
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112233

wicked rivet
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FORGET STRAIGHT HOUSE

glass mason
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wtf is a straight house

wicked rivet
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(never forget straight house)

dusty wave
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We need 8 card hands for strouse

glass mason
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gay house

dusty wave
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11222345

vale rover
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straight pair is unneeded, there are plenty of straight couples in media

fossil gust
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lol

glass mason
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we need 15 card hand

wicked rivet
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feel free to invent gay poker anytime. i will play it

glass mason
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so i can play straight trips

fossil gust
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I mean

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with gh yoiu can already play 15 size hand

dusty wave
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We need the super ultra hyper mega meta straight

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A2345678910JQK

wicked rivet
fossil gust
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I already did that math

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remember?

glass mason
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let me play a A23456789TJQKA straight flush

fossil gust
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let me fins the pic

vale rover
glass mason
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non-binary

dusty wave
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Also 377oak (possible with deck manipulation)

glass mason
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it just excludes A/T from straight

wicked rivet
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im glad you specified it's possible with deck manip

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i would've been lost

fossil gust
glass mason
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oh that glitch

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i love high card ^15

dusty wave
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also hand duplication

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The difference is you can’t see the extra cards with that, you’re just playing extra cards

fossil gust
dusty wave
glass mason
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actually what could be a really cool modded challenge idea would be like

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"can only play number of cards on what ante number"

fossil gust
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hmmm

dusty wave
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Whatever good ideas we say localthunk will probably add lol

glass mason
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so you start at 1 card only

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then it ramps to 8 card hands

fossil gust
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I like reverse that

wicked rivet
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i thought there was no way we get 6+ card played hands

fossil gust
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cause makes start impossible

glass mason
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just make scaling really small

dusty wave
fossil gust
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magic*

wicked rivet
glass mason
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like im talking 30 base

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for ante 1

dusty wave
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yeah, that is a nope

wicked rivet
dusty wave
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How about -1 hand size per joker?
That sounds like a challenge that would be in the base game though

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Might be too hard though

glass mason
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-1 handsize just sounds like held hand size

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ngl

dusty wave
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I was referring to that lol

glass mason
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oh

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though u meant played hands

dusty wave
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But could work for both

wicked rivet
glass mason
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juggler nerf 😭😭😭😭

vale rover
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better hope you get that highcard build

dusty wave
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I think it would have to be modded-only unless you start with 9-10 hand size or something

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3 hand size with full jokers forces high card build or death

glass mason
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the first mod imma do is make balatro hard mode

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just saying

wicked rivet
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oh yeah, juggler nerf. i had a thought on how to buff it without making it +2 again. i'll have to remember to suggest that later

vale rover
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oh?

glass mason
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+1.5

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you can play half a card

wicked rivet
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almost lol

glass mason
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meh its a common anyways

wicked rivet
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+1 hand size for X hands during a round, then +2 hand size for the rest

dusty wave
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+1 hand size, +1 discard

glass mason
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you cant do that

wicked rivet
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i can and i will

glass mason
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the nerf was needed tbh

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it was kinda a tyrant

wicked rivet
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yes

glass mason
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the king peasant was the tyrant

wicked rivet
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hence why im not saying revert the nerf lol

glass mason
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how bout that

wicked rivet
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anyway

glass mason
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theres not much when it comes to 6+ playing hand size

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if you cant add hand types because its confusing

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then like

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honestly, i could see a new stake let you play 6+ hands

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the scale is really fast, but you have more hand types

wicked rivet
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Daily Discussion #3 - Brainstorming 6-Card Hands And Beyond

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we can add new hand types anytime we want

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is just talk

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and mods

glass mason
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but id like an offical 6+ poker hand type tbh

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its just hard to implement without causing destruction

wicked rivet
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wdym

glass mason
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idk

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i just said that

wicked rivet
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lol

glass mason
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tbh i dont think it'll really work out if you just add a joker/voucher/spectral that just suddenly lets you play 6+

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like either a deck or a stake, so the entire playthrough is 6+ feels more consistent 🤷

fossil gust
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fair

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or challenge

glass mason
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thats my line 😭

vale rover
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+0 hand size, gains +1 hand size per hand, resets each round

glass mason
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thats just a better burnt joker no?

wicked rivet
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per hand you have left, or per hand played?

vale rover
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per hand played

wicked rivet
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i like that

fossil gust
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what would be the term for 6 cards being played?

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playing size?

vale rover
glass mason
vale rover
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it got changed to needing 4 cards destroyed in a single round per handsize

wicked rivet
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the thing that resets after each round is your count of consumables sold up to 4

dusty wave
glass mason
wicked rivet
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submitted hand size?

glass mason
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ive been using played hand size

fossil gust
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cause still says hand size

glass mason
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size played hand

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size of played hand

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fixed

fossil gust
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thats why I said "playing size"

glass mason
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honestly

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i might make a suggestion about this

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with a 6+ hand-size stake

wicked rivet
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as much as the vanilla-feeling 6-card hands are neat, i think people would be disappointed the new hands don't exist

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so what are all the possible 6-card hands with existing properties? would it be possible to make new ones?

glass mason
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wym existing properitwes

wicked rivet
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straight, flush, Of A Kind

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that stuff

dusty wave
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  • 6oak (+flush)
  • 6-card straight/flush/straight flush
  • 2+4oak
  • 3x2oak
  • 2x3oak
glass mason
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just thoses pretty sure

vale rover
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High Card but with splash

wicked rivet
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lol

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you could have some weird Straight Pair where the top card of the straight is paired

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or similarly Flush Pair

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if you allow that, then four fingers also allows straight 3oak and flush 3oak

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and straight 2 pair and flush 2 pair 😓

vale rover
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fun lol

wicked rivet
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actually if that were the case then 4 fingers would allow straight pair/flush pair in the main game already

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it kinda does but not as its own hand

fossil gust
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exactly ehy I dont like the idea of 6+ card playing

wicked rivet
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but why

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embrace the chaos

dusty wave
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The best secret hand would be strouse, but you need 7 cards with 4 fingers or 8 cards

wicked rivet
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actually it would be slush house

dusty wave
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3+2+2 would also be fun

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pair house

wicked rivet
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condominium

dusty wave
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How about the planet cards?

wicked rivet
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time to move out of the milky way

glass mason
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just realized we forgot flush manor

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the flush house variation

wicked rivet
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that was mentioned

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2 + 4oak

mild portal
wicked rivet
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ohh wait the flush variant

glass mason
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lol yeah

wicked rivet
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yeah 🤔

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  1. 6oak
  2. 6oak flush
  3. long straight
  4. long flush
  5. long straight flush
  6. full manor
  7. flush manor
  8. Triple Pair
  9. Double 3oak
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hmmmmmm 9 hands

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HMMMMM

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9 planet

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reverse planet cards

vale rover
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the milky way 2

glass mason
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we could do stars?

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white dwarf

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black dwarf

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not supernova

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uhhhhhh

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i forgor astronmy

wicked rivet
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  1. ?
  2. ?
  3. Reverse Saturn
  4. Reverse Jupiter
  5. Reverse Neptune
  6. Reverse Earth
  7. ?
  8. Reverse Uranus
  9. Reverse Venus
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leaves mercury, mars, and pluto

glass mason
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mercury is pair

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so double trips?

wicked rivet
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i put venus for that

glass mason
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it is a pair of trips

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dammnit

wicked rivet
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but not set in stone

glass mason
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well whats left

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6oaK

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sish

mild portal
wicked rivet
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6oak 6oak flush and flush manor

glass mason
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flush manor

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sish is funny

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hehe

glass mason
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reverse planet X

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i suggest planet Y

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keiper for flush manor

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the other astriod belt?

wicked rivet
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so reverse planet x, reverse eris, and reverse ceres?

fossil gust
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how much playing size does it take to play EVERY hand type in base game

glass mason
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and reverse eris yeah

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isnt eris a moon from pluto

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or am i crazy

wicked rivet
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kind of a shame 3 of the original planets are left out but it's a valid approach

wicked rivet
fossil gust
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yeah

wicked rivet
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10 i think

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AA22222345

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all same suit

fossil gust
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huh

dusty wave
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If we want planets in our solar system, here are some options:

  • Other dwarf planets: Haumea and Makemake
  • Moons:
    From Jupiter: Io, Europa, Ganymede
    From Saturn: Titan
    From Neptune: Triton
    From Pluto: Charon
    Plus maybe some more?
  • Theorized/nonexistent planets: Phaeton, Tyche, Vulcan
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The ones I listed are already enough

fossil gust
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9 with 4 fingers

glass mason
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CARY HUANG PLANET

fossil gust
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I loved makemake as a kid

wicked rivet
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i know cary huang but not the reference

glass mason
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theres also the easier way out

glass mason
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trust

wicked rivet
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ooooookay

glass mason
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trust

wicked rivet
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lol

glass mason
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sish

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i keep giggling at that

wicked rivet
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sish :3

fossil gust
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hmmm

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had a weird idea

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for spectral

glass mason
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okay

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also just for a dumb reason

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i wanna talk about 7 card hands

wicked rivet
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ok

glass mason
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dont ask why im about to type a lot

fossil gust
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take my stone hedge idea and make it every enhanced/editioned card, but they lose rank and suit

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and spectral

dusty wave
wicked rivet
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drspbread

dusty wave
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Pick your favorite

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I’m going with Balaton

wicked rivet
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balaton????

fossil gust
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I love this idea rn

wicked rivet
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mfw balatro meets balaton

glass mason
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actually wait

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with 7 cards

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theres not that many

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2X3X2 (2pair n trip)
5X2 (fullest manor)
4X3 (fullest house)
7X1 (7oaK)
only these (ignoring flush variants)

dusty wave
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Zero is a close second as a planet name

glass mason
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not even 8 cards has that many

wicked rivet
glass mason
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8oaK
double quads
quad 2pair
6X2 (fullerest house)
5X3 (fullerest manor)
2trips-pair

glass mason
dusty wave
glass mason
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excluding 1, how else can you add numbers to get to 7/8

dusty wave
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Straight House with four fingers

glass mason
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checks out

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i guess also 1234321

wicked rivet
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yeah but four fingers doesn't add Straight Pair

dusty wave
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Straight House is funny though

wicked rivet
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yes

glass mason
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so tack on AAA2345

dusty wave
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It’s like Flush House and Straight Flush

glass mason
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also straight 2pair

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AA22345

glass mason
wicked rivet
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so real quick

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6-card straight/flush is long
7-card straight/flush is jumbo
8-card straight/flush is mega

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so if you combine straight house and mega flush

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mega flush strouse?

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we did it. we found the boss of poker hands

glass mason
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so you mean

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AAA22345678

wicked rivet
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nah the mega only applies to the flush aspect

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it's still normal straight length

glass mason
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oh lol

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i hear final boss music

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i just realized

wicked rivet
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so i guess flush strouse, long flush strouse, and jumbo flush strouse also exist

glass mason
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this is basically the equivilent of "9 in minesweeper" but poker

wicked rivet
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lmao

dense mantle
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what if we also put in the +2 hand size joker into the equation?

wicked rivet
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you want 10 card hands??

dense mantle
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The possibility is right there

idle pelican
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we getting flush strouse!!

steep olive
# dense mantle ~~what if we also put in the +2 hand size joker into the equation?~~

Ask and you shall receive. I made a chart to recap 6-10 cards hands (composition and some possible names), hoping I didn't forget some (that's really possible, if so please let me know). Shall I continue with 11+ cards (as you can't be sure of anything except that some will break the game) ?

For 6-card hands, there are 11 hand types (or 9 if you account 3x2 for both Two 3oaK and Three Pairs), interestingly corresponding to 11 planets in September demo (or 8 planets +Pluto from Solar system), so reverse planets could do the thing.

However, this is hardly generalizable to larger hands (7 cards is 11 hands too if I'm not mistaken, but what would "reverse reverse planets" be? 8 cards is 15/17 hands), and would dilute the planets pool. So a way (I also saw suggested above) would be to compound the base score of a 6-card hand by summing chips x mult of regular poker hands it contains (counting only highest present among XoaK), maybe weighted by numbers greater than 1 if 6-card hands are extremely rare, so they feel rewarding enough. There's no new planets and base scores scale with existing planets even before you "discover" the hand.
6oaK and above would be based of 5oaK, with incremental extra chips x mult, or x1,n mult after cards scoring but before jokers (this incentivizes card enhancements). Same for Straight 6+ and Flush 6+.
For things like Three Pairs, I would sum Two Pairs and 3oaK (it's kinda "Three of a Pair"), but then what about Two 3oaK as it also contains a Full House? Haven't done the maths, but I remember sawing Two 3oaK less often than Three Pairs (which is pretty common), so I think Two 3oaK being more chips x mult feels natural, even if I like Math's idea of them sharing a hand type.

Wild thought as an extra (unrelated to topic and purely theorycrafting): I wonder how far one can generalize the latter to hands with 5 cards or less, so 5oaK, 5oaF and Flush House don't even need a planet anymore. Then what about 3oaK and 4oaK when you push it? 🤔

6_cards_hand_recap1.PNG 6_cards_hand_recap2.PNG
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Also, should hands compounded by Straight + XoaK be a thing? (e.g. 123455, which is Straight Pair)
They are a whole bunch, like for 6-card hands, that adds; Straight Pair, Straight Flush Pair, Flush Pair, Flush 3oaK, Flush 4oaK, and Flush 5oaK (not to be confounded with 5oaF). Also, Flush Two Pairs, another way to do Straight Flush and Flush House, and all the Long Flush variants of Flush XoaK. 🤯

west tusk
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My other idea is you are allowed to play as many cards as you want, as long as they are a straight

rapid lava
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Right now with a card like four fingers 4 5 5 6 7 scores all cards in a straight even the double 5. Maybe the joker mechanic could be +x mult for every scored card beyond 4. No need for new hand types/scoring rules So like 6oak scores as 5oak+2x mult. Like: Jumbo Jimbo - you can play up to 7 card hands +2x mult if 6 cards score,+3x mult if 7 cards score.

dusty wave
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Imagine the planet collection having as many pages as the joker collection

steep olive
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Second thoughts after processing a bit: rather than list every possible hand, the naming system could use some generalization too. From the chart, the patterns I identify as relevant are so that the name tells whether the hand contains;

  • a straight
  • a flush
  • the length of said straight and/or flush if applicable
  • X of the same rank(s), including houses
  • we define houses as a XoaK (main house) and any number of xoaK (outhouse(s), with x<X)
  • the size of said XoaK (including main house)

The naming pattern would be:

["X of a "] [Length] [Straight] [Flush] [Fullness] [House]
with;

  • ["X of a "] is text with corresponding X if hand contains a XoaK and no house, exceptions are Pairs (2oaK's) which would go to the end of the name
  • [Length] gives the highest number of cards in Straight or Flush (Long for 6, Longer for 7, etc...)
  • [Straight] is present if the hand contains a Straight (or Dual/Twin Straights for more straights of different/same ranks)
  • [Flush] is present if the hand contains a Flush (or Bicolor/Blush for more flushes of different/same suits)
  • [Fullness] is present if the hand contains a house and gives its "X minus base X" (0 is Full, +1 is Fuller, etc...)
  • [House] is present if the hand contains a house and gives all of its base X and x's (e.g. House is 3.2, Villa is 4.3, Manor is 3.2.2, etc...)

Scoring would be computed by summing attributed chips and/or mult and/or X mult to each part of the name, and these values are what planets upgrade. That sounds a bit complex and needs an overhaul of levels' system, but uniformly handles all sizes of hands (hopefully). 🙃

steep olive
glass mason
wicked rivet