Boss Brainstorm

[digital sentinel]

clean tooth?🤔

[mighty remnant]

its just a diffrent flavor of tooth

easier early game and brutal late game

while tooth is just medium diffculty in both

[thorny shard]

ah the 6/7 cards drawn are facedown didnt make it into the poll

[spring silo]

If P involves changing the UX, I'll just scrap it. It's going to be too much scope for one boss

[mighty remnant]

oops all 6's wheel already does this

[arctic widget]

@spring silo Are you still taking more boss ideas?

[mighty remnant]

or atleast goes up the more u have

[spring silo]

You can post em here if you want for sure (don't ping me pls)

I'll still keep an eye out for ideas as I implement

[arctic widget]

Boss with score cap of 40% of blind score. You would need at least 3 hands to beat them. Counters one hand decks.

[spring silo]

Yoooooo I literally just wrote that idea in my notebook

but 50%

[sinful holly]

great minds think alike

[hot patio]

make it 25% and call it mr bones

[mighty remnant]

the bone

[arctic widget]

Hmm yeah, I was thinking that but 50% means 2 hands. This could be balanced later on

[thorny shard]

49%

[spring silo]

I think 3 hands would be too rough personally, and the word 'half' is more crayon friendly than %

[sinful holly]

makes sense 🤔

[spring silo]

BTW when I say crayon I'm referring to myself

I have horrible reading retention

[mighty remnant]

fair af

[sinful holly]

ok so crayon = localthunk 🧐

but makes sense

[spring silo]

🖍️

[surreal fog]

we dont want new versions of the old death card where every streamer got half way through reading it and then gave up lol

[spring silo]

Current ceremonial dagger

[surreal fog]

trueeee

[sinful holly]

what was the old death card?

[spring silo]

It's because it's longer than an average twitch chat message

[mighty remnant]

LOL

[surreal fog]

[grizzled rover]

LUL*

[sinful holly]

😂

[spring silo]

'This sentence should have ended 5 words ago better stop'

[sinful holly]

dang

[spring silo]

Old death description is so busted

[sinful holly]

this sentence should have ended

[grizzled rover]

@streamer this game sucks play minecraft

[mighty remnant]

i forgot what old death was

[spring silo]

You kinda did need a law degree to decipher it

Converts up to 2 selected cards into the rightmost selected card

While technically correct it didn't do your brain any favours

[arctic widget]

Yeah but this mechanic is already in slay the spire so not really a new unique idea

[sinful holly]

oh

im dum

i forgot death was a tarot

[spring silo]

What enemy has that?

[grizzled rover]

oh, the heart?

meh, that cap barely ever matters

[arctic widget]

Final spoiler boss

[sinful holly]

i do remember the old description though

[spring silo]

Ah

[arctic widget]

Huh? It's a run killer soem times 😂

[sinful holly]

i thought it was an old joker for a sec 🤦

[grizzled rover]

not nearly often enough from what i've seen

[sinful holly]

i don’t play Sts

[grizzled rover]

tbh most of the runs that damage cap win

balatro is much different in that department

[spring silo]

STS was my first deckbuilder when I bought it in May, I was doing controller code at the time and wanted to see what they did for UX with controller. It's such an amazing game but I'm lucky I designed most of Balatro before interacting with it because it would have leeched into my brain for sure

[grizzled rover]

boss idea: you can only play 12 cards

wait, we've done this joke before

[surreal fog]

boss idea: it just opens StS and you need to win a run

[hot patio]

Boss Idea: hands you play can't be of repeating size

[grizzled rover]

oh god

[surreal fog]

interesting variation on the no repeating hand types boss

[thorny shard]

boss idea: every hand played deletes a random file off your computer

[surreal fog]

could also go for all hands must be of the same size

[grizzled rover]

god dammit it rolled balatro again

wait that's not the right message to reply to

[thorny shard]

lol

[arctic widget]

Boss idea: the blind splits into mini blinds at 80% score

[spring silo]

I still think I could make the world a better place by making a boss that links an NCBI paper and having the players take a quiz on it to play each hand

[grizzled rover]

balatro: education edition

move aside minecraft

[sinful holly]

boss: what is 1 + 1 ?

[grizzled rover]

doesn't the game already ask you what 340x176 is :^)

[surreal fog]

balatro challenge where the mouse gets disabled and every clickable element must be activated by typing the word floating above it

[sinful holly]

someone : window!

[spring silo]

yoooooooooo

[grizzled rover]

put that idea in the same folder as Scrabbalatro

[spring silo]

Mavis Beacalatro

[grizzled rover]

oh god

[spring silo]

I'll need to workshop that one

[sinful holly]

boss: yeets em

[fickle lily]

types the word joker
game bursts into flames trying to render 150 error messages of "xxxx Joker not owned!"

classic "software tester walks into a bar" :wheeze:

[spring silo]

So for options N and O - any other thoughts on ways they could be improved?

Like any played cards this ante are discarded

[thorny shard]

N - increase the amount but make it per hand?

[surreal fog]

Or any played cards this ante are debuffed

lmao wait i misread it

thats what it is

[spring silo]

lol

[surreal fog]

i would suggest played cards this ante are drawn face down but thats a pen and paper issue

[mighty remnant]

O seems hard and easy at the same time but just annoying to me

[spring silo]

wym you'll be skipping blinds anyway

Oh wait skipless is a category

[mighty remnant]

not even for speedrunning

i just mean casual play

it seems annoying and unfun

[spring silo]

I'm goofin

[mighty remnant]

ur good lol

like if i saw that blind on my first run

im restarting

i dont wanna deal with it

[spring silo]

Really?

I think it's kinda fun

[grizzled rover]

are you interpreting that as affecting small and big blinds as well?

[spring silo]

Needing to play careful for the small/big blinds

[grizzled rover]

as in there will be debuffed cards in those rounds

[winter mason]

O is unique, it would make me consider not playing a good hand on the small blind hoping to save it for the boss

[mighty remnant]

OH WAIT

[fickle lily]

it seems pretty good for a later game challenge
might be too overwhelming for a new but i think its pretty good

[mighty remnant]

I UNDERSTAND IT NOW

[thorny shard]

ive changed my mind about O, i like it now

[mighty remnant]

i thought every card u play becomes debuffed then scores

[sinful holly]

???

[mighty remnant]

im stupid

apoligies

[spring silo]

It's not a you issue it's a me issue

I need to make that clear in a sentence

[sinful holly]

ohhhhhhhhhhh

[thorny shard]

crayon moment

[winter mason]

🖍️

[sinful holly]

the played cards get debuffed after being scored…

🖍️

[spring silo]

Only for the boss

Not for the lower blinds

[surreal fog]

All cards played during small and big blind on this ante are debuffed

[spring silo]

Like they are debuffed one time at the start of the boss fight

[grizzled rover]

"your largest hand score this ante is added to the boss req"

[spring silo]

That is amazing

[sinful holly]

i thought of straight up verdant leaf but no choice to sell for three blinds

[mighty remnant]

this fucks

[spring silo]

little calculator issue

[surreal fog]

time to go golfin

[spring silo]

Golf is not good for Calculator considerations

[mighty remnant]

i mean youd just have to divide it by 2 then add it to the base blind for the boss

[thorny shard]

boss blind increases for every $ spent this ante

[spring silo]

No like it incentivizes you to barely beat the lower blinds

[mighty remnant]

ohhhhh

[spring silo]

which means calculator o'clock

[mighty remnant]

true

[spring silo]

Can we squeeze this idea smaller?

[grizzled rover]

"cards you've played this ante are debuffed"

[spring silo]

FYI this is the longest boss description right now:
All cards debuffed until 1 Joker sold

[sinful holly]

all discarded and played cards gets debuffed and reshuffled into deck? 🤔

oh

[surreal fog]

this has the issue where it can be interpreted as debuffing pre-scoring

[fickle lily]

well it does

[surreal fog]

no they debuff after youve played them once

[sinful holly]

it doesn’t

[thorny shard]

if the cards are already debuffed when you first see them it would be clear i think

[spring silo]

All previously played cards this ante are debuffed

[fickle lily]

"cards are debuffed after being played"
idk how itous specify "this ante"

[grizzled rover]

they aren't debuffed until the boss

[mighty remnant]

litteraly exactly what i was typing

[sinful holly]

that’s a good crayon 🖍️

[spring silo]

it's still too long

[surreal fog]

"Debuffed :("

[spring silo]

I like it

[winter mason]

would buying hieroglyph count as the same ante

[mighty remnant]

any previous cards played in ante are debuffed

[spring silo]

"Debuffed :|"

[mighty remnant]

should be a bit smaller

[quiet oracle]

All cards played this ante are debuffed

[fickle lily]

"the color grey is incentivized this ante"

[grizzled rover]

weren't we also saying earlier that debuffed cards are kind of uninteresting anyway

[mighty remnant]

this is the original one and becomes confusing to some people, cough me

[surreal fog]

they are more interesting under the right conditions, like debuffed face cards being more interesting than debuffed suits

debuffing the cards you played is interesting enough for me

[fickle lily]

^

[surreal fog]

since they are likely to have on play effects that would get disabled

[spring silo]

The vectors of punishment are:
debuffing cards
increasing score req
flipping cards
changing numbers on stats (mult, chips, hand size, hands, discards)
OTHER

OTHER doesn't work for some of these conditional bosses

[grizzled rover]

someone said earlier that cards played this ante could be discarded instead

that would likely make it easier to understand coincidentally

[mighty remnant]

"blind is x1, next boss blind is x4"

[fickle lily]

"randomly change your operating systems language"

[grizzled rover]

lol

[surreal fog]

I sentence you to the vectors of punishment!!!!
↖️⬆️↗️
⬅️➡️
↙️⬇️↘️

[thorny shard]

new joker leak? 👀

[fickle lily]

Archer:
arch cards (looks cool)

[spring silo]

previous cards played this ante are debuffed

I think that is short enough

[fickle lily]

"all discards are forced to be 5 cards?"

[fickle lily]

seems to encapsulate it well

[mighty remnant]

u can change this to in but yeah

[thorny shard]

i still think this has merit, gives some risk/reward for if you find something nice in the shop

[spring silo]

If I change it to 'in' it won't shorten the UI, since it'll be split in 2:
previous cards played
this ante are debuffed

is about the same width as
previous cards played
in ante are debuffed

[mighty remnant]

gotchu gotchu

[spring silo]

one of the quirks of this garbo engine I made

[mighty remnant]

lmao

[spring silo]

So that is basically O still, I think there is room for a couple bosses like this

Needing to look ahead for a boss effect seems a lot more engaging than just rolling with whatever when you get there

Any hand played this Ante starts at lvl. 1

Stuff like that

[surreal fog]

yeah boss effects look at the whole ante is super interesting

i mentioned it before but a lot of cool strategy will come out of it especially around boss rerolling

[grizzled rover]

https://tenor.com/view/mike-wazowski-watchingyou-gif-5352035

[surreal fog]

like maybe you dont reroll right away but if you get two blinds in and its looking bad you could choose to reroll the boss so you dont have to deal with how badly you played the small/big blind

[spring silo]

Oh

I was thinking it would still apply

:)

[surreal fog]

It wouldnt if its a new boss though!

[fickle lily]

something with deleting cards?
or giving you a buff but reversing
off the too of my head
"+1 hand per round this ante
extra hands decrease money by $1" or something like that

ir some other effect

[spring silo]

Ohhhhhh

I see

[surreal fog]

rolling into one of these bosses would suck but rolling out of it would be great, situationally

and i think thats really great

[fickle lily]

"ante increases by 0.05x per $ spent in shop"?

or some other mult

[spring silo]

I like that

[fickle lily]

yeahh boss rerolling rn is kinda
niche
ante wide effects might incentivize it more

[surreal fog]

or maybe increased by X0.5 per $5 held, up to 25 so you specifically have to balance between interest and boss danger

[mighty remnant]

also while were on the topic of blinds is/can there a way to see the base blinds without going into the collection during the run, like in the run info section

[thorny shard]

thats less interesting imo cause you can just dump your money before the boss

[spring silo]

There is a blind section, what is it missing?

[thorny shard]

unless you mean it stacks per blind

[spring silo]

Or even worse if you roll into it you just can't do anything with your money

[surreal fog]

sure you can dump your money, but you lose out on your future interest

[fickle lily]

or the reverse, where it increaes per $ you earn (or $5)

[surreal fog]

so you can effectively pay in lost interest to reduce the bosses difficulty

[thorny shard]

per $ spent is more interesting to me cause you want to buy jokers and packs and stuff, so youd be doing that at the added cost of needing a higher score

[surreal fog]

I like both personally

[spring silo]

Start with 0 hands + 1 hand per unused discard this ante

[surreal fog]

rip burglar users

[fickle lily]

burglar players are sobbing
but otherwise this is pretty interesting

dont mnow wheter youd start with 1 or 0 though

[spring silo]

It really should be 1

[surreal fog]

yea

[spring silo]

But that isn't balanced

Because needle

[fickle lily]

makes sense

[thorny shard]

merry andy moment

[surreal fog]

well needle has lower health

[spring silo]

True but this would probably still be 2X

is that too easy?

[surreal fog]

yeah probably, its pretty common to have unspent discards

[mighty remnant]

one sec

[spring silo]

It shows current info for blinds

[thorny shard]

thoughts on letting you see 1 ante ahead? for more planning and stuff

[spring silo]

I am for this idea in general

[fickle lily]

ante increases by (0.01x * value of cards played) during ante
like A-2-3-4-5 would increase it by 0.15x

i dont think its balanced but maybe something around that

[spring silo]

but implementing might be tricky

[fickle lily]

letting you reroll the ante ahead

[mighty remnant]

its missing this

[spring silo]

Ah okay

[surreal fog]

I just want to see the next ante after beating the boss blind lol

[thorny shard]

i think it would be more strategic in general, and help with the bosses that counter specific playstyles (giving you more time to pivot)

[spring silo]

Is that useful information mid run?

Or more just a nice-to-have

I haven't ever looked at that while playing but I'm bad

[grizzled rover]

sometimes if you're being greedy and barely winning blinds it'd be nice to know what to expect soon

[fickle lily]

i mean it probably is useful
its just that playing the demo so much has engrained the numbers lol

[grizzled rover]

although i have the demo antes memorized ;P

[surreal fog]

ive never looked at the base value per ante during a run personally

[spring silo]

I feel like it's visual clutter for average players

[mighty remnant]

decently, i feel like it would be a qol feature thats not urgent but would be nice for future things like stakes and if theres new blinds that effect future antes or blinds like "N"

[grizzled rover]

oh yeah, if challenges ever affect ante sizes, that'd be important

[mighty remnant]

u can always go into collection to see it but i feel like if the blinds tab could have space for it i feel like itd be nice there

[spring silo]

Even then - do you need to know ahead of time?

[fickle lily]

tbh i kinda just
do the antes

but i agree ante changes might benefit from it slightly

[spring silo]

Like would that information often serve to benefit a decision you would make in a run

Because the run info area is reserved for common information you might need

[winter mason]

i dont think it would benefit me mid run

[fickle lily]

^

[mighty remnant]

thats fair

[fickle lily]

back on the topic of bosses
i personslly like the idea of more bosses messing with money

because it doesnt hard cap any strategy
but it does hamper it in a way

[spring silo]

Yeah econ is a whole system that is honestly the most carefully balanced, feels like there should be more barriers

It's the acceleration system vs chips/mult being the velocity systems

For all you high school physics buffs out there

[mighty remnant]

i was a high school sleepy guy buff

[fickle lily]

math is adjacent to physics so
close enough

[quiet oracle]

true

[fickle lily]

"lose $1 per (ante amount)" overplayed"?
or something else? (seems too weak tbh)

the money spent thing is the only thing im confident on

[spring silo]

I'll implement some other ones and come back to it

[mighty remnant]

goat

gl in ur work

[fickle lily]

^
ty 🙏

[weary folio]

implementation time baby

[thorny shard]

as this is in the experimental thread, are you planning on replacing bosses in the current demo?

[spring silo]

No

[thorny shard]

okie doke

[spring silo]

Omg I forgot to add like the best one to the poll:
Forces 1 card to always be selected

[grizzled rover]

would've voted that one

[spring silo]

I knew I was adding it anyway I guess

oops!

Need to work on that verbage

[vague plank]

I think the biggest problem with bosses at the moment is that you only really have 2 rounds to plan for them, which is not a lot. And bosses that drastically change how or what you’re able to play would probably feel much more fair and less punishing if you could plan for them ahead of time. This would also probably allow you to make more impactful boss effects without needing to worry about fairness if you give the player the heads up beforehand.

[thorny shard]

ditto

[quiet oracle]

if you could see all tags/boss blinds in a run in advance that would be interesting

[thorny shard]

even 1 ante in advance would be really nice

[vague plank]

Maybe not even all of them, just a few in advance to give you more than 2 rounds to plan yeah

[thorny shard]

i feel like seeing ALL the info would lead to more restarting for good rng

but 1 ante lookahead gives you time to plan

[vague plank]

I really don’t think people would restart from boss picks unless there were insanely unfair bosses that almost always kill runs, which hopefully there shouldn’t be

There should always be counterpicks or counterplay that allows you to beat the bosses

[surreal fog]

seeing the bosses that are getting cut and the types of bosses that are being added, I dont think we really need a bunch of extra time to plan around them. definitely shying away from bosses that require you to change your entire strategy

that said, id love to be able to see like 1 ante ahead anyway

not necessarily just for boss blinds

[thorny shard]

imagine how hype it would be to see a double-tag this ante and a poly tag next ante

[spring silo]

double tag is an insta skip

in a fun way

even if you don't know what's coming

[vague plank]

double tag?

[grizzled rover]

new skip tags

https://discord.com/channels/1116389027176787968/1172277364458262548

[spring silo]

I revamped tags, they're better now and I added a bunch

double tag adds a copy of the next tag you take

and there are no more probabilities for tags, always 100%

[vague plank]

let's gooo!! I love that

awesome change

very excited to see those when we get a chance to (even if it's on full release)

[spring silo]

Oh and 12 new booster packs (2 types)

to go with the tags, it was a whole thing

[surreal fog]

do we know the new types of booster packs yet?

[spring silo]

I sent a screenshot earlier

[grizzled rover]

standard and buffoon

[surreal fog]

looking at the screenshot I assume they will be playing card & jokers, cooooooool

[spring silo]

#🎙・server-chat message

#🎙・server-chat message

[surreal fog]

Very happy to see packs in general get expanded

[spring silo]

Packs were a solution to a weakpoint Balatro had - and now they're a big design bonus for the game

[surreal fog]

yeah they are one of my favorite systems by far, it just feels so versatile

[vague plank]

Man, how did I miss so much

[surreal fog]

yeah ive been slacking recently lol

[vague plank]

Is there info on what the packs have / do?

[spring silo]

something probably i unno

[vague plank]

Yo that’s like my favorite thing

[sinful holly]

thx for the info 👍

[surreal fog]

buffoon pack should just be jimbo telling a joke and you get nothing

[vague plank]

Wdym, you get a joke

[surreal fog]

trueeeee

nothing quantifiable, but jimbo is priceless

[vague plank]

Jimbo may be a Joker but we all know he’s a King

[spring silo]

On more question - which of these feels most like a final boss?

Other than B and M

I'm trying to fill the final boss position

[quiet oracle]

E

and maybe L

[spring silo]

E is interesting, but I think having the effect occur no matter what (even if you win in one hand) so you need to interface with it is important for the final bosses

[quiet oracle]

Then probably A

A doesn’t feel as final boss-y tho imo

L (if balanced properly) does to me a bit

[spring silo]

I can adjust balance on any of them to make them hard enough

[grizzled rover]

1/7 face up not going to be a final boss then? i noticed that wasn't on the list

[spring silo]

Feel is more important

[spring silo]

No it won't be

[thorny shard]

damn

[sinful holly]

final bosses to me are ones that affect jokers

they give a distinct feel as they affect something unique compared to the rest

[grizzled rover]

that's too restrictive

[spring silo]

It doesn't need to do something with Jokers

[grizzled rover]

there's definitely other ideas out there to make final bosses

[spring silo]

doing things with jokers happens to change a majority of runs, but hand size also does that

[surreal fog]

esp bcuz one of the final bosses is violet vessel and id consider it a good one

[sinful holly]

oh yea

[spring silo]

I think it's perfect for a final boss

Even if simple

[sinful holly]

i forgor

[surreal fog]

its simplicity is part of why its so good I think

[sinful holly]

ye

[spring silo]

The forced selected card one would be good but I want that one to be a normie boss

because I like it too much

I don't want it hidden at the end

[surreal fog]

tbh a -hand size final boss might be perfect in that last slot

doesnt necessarily need to be -2

[spring silo]

Yeah I am thinking so too

-1 seems too easy, -2 too hard

[quiet oracle]

Could be E but starts at -1

[sinful holly]

hyperovercomplication example: gain x0.1 base for each card played and scored in this ante, and debuff them for this boss

[quiet oracle]

Might be too brutal

[sinful holly]

that is why simplicity is key lol

[surreal fog]

-2 might be perfect for a final boss but id have to play with it to really know

[sinful holly]

yea

[spring silo]

Kk here's a spoiler for one of the Stakes

[thorny shard]

increasing the blind requirement during the fight is thematic for heart, but im not sure how to make it work with oneshot hands

[spring silo]

-1 hand size

[sinful holly]

👀

[surreal fog]

leaks

[spring silo]

So if it's 8 - 2 is 6, but 7 - 2 is 5 and that is insanely hard

[quiet oracle]

this?

[spring silo]

Well what is even the point then?

[surreal fog]

Eh if you are playing on a higher stake, u gotta deal with that imo

[vague plank]

Final boss effects feel like they should be “Plan your run to try and beat this” level effects, but with the way blinds are displayed that would be quite unfair rn

[spring silo]

Because after 2 plays youll have 4 cards

[surreal fog]

if the stake put it at 4 id worry more

[spring silo]

maybe -1 is fair actually

[quiet oracle]

That’s true it gets too hard

[spring silo]

6 without ouija for higher stakes is super hard

but doable?

[sinful holly]

no idea tbh

[spring silo]

I am torn on juggler btw, used to be +1 and troubadour +2

and I have been considering a nerf to +1, troubadour +2 with some downside (-1 hand)

Having a boss like this amplifies the balance issue with it

[vague plank]

What if Juggler was “Every time you play a hand, gain +1 Hand size”?

[sinful holly]

juggler is great but not insane through my play experience

[grizzled rover]

that's a very juggl-y feel

[thorny shard]

i kinda like that

[sinful holly]

ye

[spring silo]

That loses the emergent synergy with packs

[thorny shard]

ah true

[vague plank]

Hm?

[thorny shard]

troubadour would still have it

[sinful holly]

oh ye

[spring silo]

like spectral/arcana packs are affected by juggler

the number of cards drawn

[quiet oracle]

what if it sets hand size to 6 (before jokers applied)

[vague plank]

Well you would still get the hand size back up

I don’t see how the synergy would be lost

It would just take a couple hand plays

[spring silo]

Oh do you mean permanent?

Like it doesn't reset every round?

[vague plank]

No it does reset

[thorny shard]

it could reset at the start of blinds, so you have the bonus for shops

[grizzled rover]

smart

[thorny shard]

keeps emergent gameplay

[vague plank]

Maybe it could be +1, +1 more per hand played

[thorny shard]

lets you trade hands (and hand money) for more selection in packs as well

[sinful holly]

sudden burglar juggler synergy

[spring silo]

As a common card I think +1 base is still totally good

Wasn't it in S in the poll?

[sinful holly]

ye

[vague plank]

Yeah

It is great

[thorny shard]

mhm

[vague plank]

I would be sad if it was nerfed in effect

And basically never pick it

[hot patio]

I think juggler is overrated

[surreal fog]

you only say that bcuz youve played with 125 card hands lol

[mighty remnant]

ye, i think it was 2nd place if i remeber correctly

[thorny shard]

ok imagine- juggler is +1 hand size per hand played (starts at 0) and resets at the start of blinds, and then troubadour becomes +2 hand size

[surreal fog]

to all these poor demo players its the best way to increase hand size

[sinful holly]

everytime i finish a run with juggler with no ouija ectoplasm, i always think aww man my hand is small again

[spring silo]

Juggler at 8 > 10 is maybe a bit overrated, but juggler at 6 > 8 is OP

Or even 7 > 9 for the higher Stakes

I think people would def take it at +1

[mighty remnant]

7 > 9 during Oujia juggler rules so hard

[surreal fog]

im a bit worried about burnt joker considering hand size is such a valued resource now

[spring silo]

There will be nerfs/buffs in this game

a lot of them

like a ton

[surreal fog]

[vague plank]

Understandable

[spring silo]

That's how it ends up fun

[surreal fog]

byebye burnt joker 👋

[spring silo]

So you don't just pull the same thread every time

[sinful holly]

noooo

[spring silo]

No I'll wait on burnt until it is or isnt a problem

[vague plank]

I think the lack of Troubadour in the demo is coloring my perception of it

[thorny shard]

just make burnt joker MINUS one hand size for every 4 tarot sold

easy fix

[surreal fog]

easy

[thorny shard]

youre burning cards after all

[surreal fog]

troubadour should be +2 hand size -1 hand size, then itll be balanced

[spring silo]

The only undebatable S tier jokers should be Blueprint and Brainstorm, every other joker (in every other tier) should be at least debatable

[vague plank]

Juggler being the only hand size modifying joker and being a +2 but more expensive feels very fair atm

[spring silo]

That is different than not allowing broken runs to happen but things can be improperly tuned

Like when demo first came out in Sept, I nerfed Ouija instantly

It was short term fun but was getting in the way of the actual variety in the game

[vague plank]

That was understandable

[grizzled rover]

juggler is only S because it's common

[vague plank]

I don’t think the consistency Juggler provides takes away from the variety in the game- +2 hand size is nice but it does not in itself win you the run. You have to have things other things to benefit from the extra hand size

[spring silo]

It's still in S though

[grizzled rover]

moving it to uncommon i think would be reasonable

[spring silo]

So since there is a counterpart joker in Troubadour, I think having it +1 and having Troubadour stay Uncommon with +2 (-1 hand) is fair too

Or maybe even +3 (-1 hand)

for troubadour

[surreal fog]

+3 -1 hand lets go

[vague plank]

But this is all from the context of not knowing the new challenges that are coming. If there are forced -1 hand sizes then +2 is very strong

[spring silo]

Yes there will be a forced -1 hand size

for both a boss and a stake

and Ouija but we know that one already

[vague plank]

Would making Juggler uncommon allow the +2 to stay fair?

[thorny shard]

and ectoplasm

[spring silo]

Makes Ouija worse too I guess

[spring silo]

Since Troubadour exists - no I think I'd rather have it common

and +1

But troub at +3 might work

[surreal fog]

what about keeping burnt unchanged except going to rare for now

[spring silo]

Is it not rare???

What was I thinking

[surreal fog]

wiki lists it as uncommon, could be wrong

[vague plank]

What about +1 hand size and +1 discard?

[spring silo]

Oh I must have changed it

[surreal fog]

ah ok so its already rare just hasnt been public since it got changed

[vague plank]

Actually that is too strong for a common probably

[sinful holly]

yeah rare for burnt seems more sense

[surreal fog]

I like +1 common Juggler, +3 -1 hand size Troubadour uncommon, and burnt joker rare

[sinful holly]

it’s pretty powerful as for tarots/planets you get hand size and money

[surreal fog]

if burnt joker is a rare i dont really care if its kinda busted lol

[spring silo]

This seems super balanced to me

[sinful holly]

rip +2 juggler you will be missed 🫡

[vague plank]

Could you allow Blueprint to copy Juggler?

[sinful holly]

no that would be busted

[vague plank]

At +1?

[sinful holly]

as you can do that at start of hand

then move it

when scoring

[spring silo]

It's a blueprint issue not a balance issue

[vague plank]

If you move it then play a hand, the next hand you draw will have less cards

It would only buff the first hand with no drawback

[sinful holly]

but more hands when discarding is huge

[surreal fog]

ideally we want to minimize how much you move blueprint around to be optimal

[spring silo]

Moving blueprint around mid round would be kinda butts

And frustrating when timing seems like a factor

[vague plank]

Alrighty

[spring silo]

Even now I don't love the moving blueprint strats

since it's not just a copy of a card

it's a copy of multiple cards

[sinful holly]

it’s more of a blueprint issue yeah

[vague plank]

If you make it “when Blind is chosen, copy the effect of the Joker to the right until the end of the round”, would you allow it to be compatible with Juggler?

[sinful holly]

that’s a hard nerf for blueprint though 😦

[spring silo]

If I did that yeah, we discussed this though I am going to leave blueprint as is

[surreal fog]

Im fine with blueprint in its current state but i think it would be better from a design standpoint if what it is compatible/incompatible with had more defined pools, or if it copied the ability on blind select so you just cant swap it around mid blind

[spring silo]

blueprint is fun the way it currently is warts and all

[surreal fog]

yeah

just best not to add extra warts

[thorny shard]

i like the warts ._.

[spring silo]

Moving it around between hands is really fun, but I don't want to incentivize having it in the correct position at the correct time while things are happening

Anyway, neither here nor there because that's a lot of work for not a lot of benefit

When it's already a great card

[sinful holly]

blueprint has a 99.98% S to 0.01% A ratio to 0.01% B ratio (approximately)

[spring silo]

Thought someone voted A too?

[sinful holly]

who voted A / B 💢

[thorny shard]

the B vote was someone who voted exclusively based on what letters the jokers start with

so

[sinful holly]

that makes no sense

[weary folio]

ah yes, my favorite joker, splash

[spring silo]

Mine is superposition 🤓

[surreal fog]

The best joker, superposition

dmanit

[vague plank]

Yeah I agree

[surreal fog]

discord delayed my message to after u :lionRage:

[spring silo]

sure

🙂

[sinful holly]

🙂

[surreal fog]

🙂

[spring silo]

🙃

[sinful holly]

🙃

[thorny shard]

🙃

[spring silo]

^3 emojis in a trenchcoat stand by a reflecting pool

[surreal fog]

they are smiling wider in their reflection

[spring silo]

[vague plank]

🔍

[surreal fog]

lmao i love NLs fucked up widepeepohappy

[balmy radish]

just wanted to hop in and say i love this game so much

[sinful holly]

off topic but whyyyyyyy

[balmy radish]

i know i didnt realize it was messed up till i sent it

[sinful holly]

ikr so sad 😔

[balmy radish]

to add something to the discussion i like the idea of a 'playing a [most played hand this run] sets money to $0' type boss blind - i tend to rely on one hand a bit too much so it would be interesting to have a penalty for it

or just cheese it and spend all your money before the boss blind

[fickle lily]

also forgot to add
i like the idea od the -$1 everytime a joker is triggered whoever suggested it

[balmy radish]

ooooh that's a good one too

[sinful holly]

when you boss reroll into the play most played hand money = 0 and have $90 in your bank

[wet palm]

..the fish?

[balmy radish]

[sinful holly]

not pogfish

[balmy radish]

ooo

[sinful holly]

fish right now is boring though

so it’s on the cutting board

[balmy radish]

i was thinking it might be interesting to have a boss blind that divides your mult the further into your hands you get

[sinful holly]

🔪

hmm

idk

[wet palm]

why doesnt the fish prevent flushes :.( you only flush the fish when its dead

[balmy radish]

true

[sinful holly]

no that’s the flint

[wet palm]

ik lol

[balmy radish]

i dont wanna think about the dead fishy

[sinful holly]

well the flint is also on the cutting board

[wet palm]

honestly i feel like targeting a specfific hand would leave a sour taste if that was the setup i happened to focus on so i get why it is

[balmy radish]

i think L (base chips and mult halved) would probably be the closest/most doable thing that's in line with what i'm thinking

[wet palm]

is there a boss which lowers chip values?

[balmy radish]

not sure, that would also be cool

like a reverse hiker joker

[wet palm]

kk the fish should half card chip values (because it made them wet)

[crisp iris]

That's an option but not that much of a cheese since you're destroying your economy and future interests

[sinful holly]

that’s why most of the no flush, full house etc bosses got put up on the cutting board

[sinful holly]

that’s wraith in a nutshell

[wet palm]

bad idea?

[balmy radish]

me when the hypothetical boss blind sets my money to 0 anyway: im never gonna financially recover from this

[sinful holly]

check the pinned messages and make sure to vote on the existing poll

#1174373268640239656 message

[balmy radish]

it says the most well designed so i'm assuming we shouldn't vote on multiple?

i think the draw half the deck to hand is kind of a cool idea as well

[fickle lily]

vote up to three if you can

three best ones

[crisp iris]

I really like wraith, it's a joy when you have no money and an interesting decision when you have good money

[balmy radish]

oh har har it says choose ~5

[fickle lily]

actually it says ~5 votes at the top i am illiterate

[balmy radish]

🤝

us

[wet palm]

why is E worded like that

[sinful holly]

🤦‍♂️

[balmy radish]

i know

[sinful holly]

E is what you think

everytime you play a played hand

your held hand -1 size

[wet palm]

ok

but why

is it to consider jokers which convert discards to hands

cuz i feel like other than that case, id just say 'Half number of hands (rounded up)'

[sinful holly]

anti burglar synergy

[crisp iris]

Was "1 card is always preselected" cut ? It's not in the poll

[fickle lily]

held hand size
aka how many cards you get to selext from
not the number of playable hands

[sinful holly]

i think that wad autochosen by local so no vote needed i think

[wet palm]

OHHH thanks for clarifying lmao

[sinful holly]

thats more punishing and is something completely different

[wet palm]

thats less punishing.

[sinful holly]

for specific builds

[fickle lily]

+0.15x ante per Tarot/Planet/Spectral card used this ante

[wet palm]

either way i misintrepreted

[wet palm]

hmmm

[balmy radish]

oooh the mystic perhaps

[sinful holly]

i think that was mentioned but didnt make it to the poll

[wet palm]

btw are some of the ideas from suggestions 👀

i havent been looking at boss suggestions recently

[sinful holly]

tbh, no?

[fickle lily]

or +0.10x ante per ($) of joker sell values
ex. total $11 would add 1.1x ante

i like money manipulation

[sinful holly]

quoting localthunk

[wet palm]

ngl i dont like the ante changing as you play, feels off

[fickle lily]

^^ yeah simplicity is key

[fickle lily]

more interactive bosses throughout the rounds are better than "oh the boss is here okay"

it only changes at the end

when you fight the boss

i migjt be confusing rhe words ante and round though so excuse me

[sinful holly]

this is a bit overcomplex imo (how can we fit this in the game UI)

considering 7 words being the longest description rn

[fickle lily]

yeah im just spitballing

[sinful holly]

alr

[balmy radish]

fwiw it's 37 characters long

[wet palm]

its 8 when u exclude the example

[sinful holly]

aw man chat died fr 😦

[balmy radish]

i went back to playing

[fickle lily]

chat balanced out 😔

[sinful holly]

what game is catsob /j

[balmy radish]

i got a foil supernova i was too busy admiring

[sinful holly]

cool

[balmy radish]

its just an emote from a friends server i can send the gif if you want

[fickle lily]

we should probably go to #🕹・game-discussion then lol

[balmy radish]

yes oops ! mods delete whatever isnt on topic if you want, sorry

[dapper onyx]

bro i missed this poll by like 8 hours and there are already 1650+ messages 😭

that's like 4 messages per minute

[thorny shard]

average balatro discussion

[weary folio]

balatro brain go brr

[patent atlas]

Has the idea of boss blinds that give upsides but have a higher than normal boss ante been suggested?

[sinful holly]

nope, and probably won't be, it would be weird

it just saves losing runs potentially

and makes winning runs win even harder

bosses are meant to destroy you in runs

or at least what i believe

and stuff like the wall (4x ante base) and violet vessel (6x ante base) (both existing already) exist

[patent atlas]

I think it opens up a lot more mechanical space

Boss blinds which interact with the player and how they play are more interesting than not

[sinful holly]

it does in a way

but looking at the list of blinds on the cutting board

[patent atlas]

I prefer wheel compared to a lot of them because of that

[sinful holly]

none seem to have a name that is nice

wheel is flipping your cards

it's fun in a way (annoying too but can be evaded)

amber acorn (revamped) will flip and shuffle the position of your jokers at the start of blind

which i think would be interesting to tackle

[patent atlas]

Yeah there's some good ideas in the list

Only new traditional boss blind I can think of is "Repeat ranks are debuffed"

[quick saddle]

-2 Hand Size
Brutal but fine.

All Jokers start flipped and shuffled
INSANELY Brutal. Not a fan because it mostly disables Blueprint, among ruining other builds.

First hand of round is drawn face down
AND
One third/half of deck is discarded
If you haven't duped your key card(s) enough, basically a death sentence on bad RNG. Not a fam.

-1 hand size per hand played
Interesting.

1 card is always preselected
I thought you were removing the Arm.

DEBUFF hand if contains a: Straight, Flush, 3oak (debuff all cards instead of autodiscarding them)
Not a fan. Disables builds for high score runs.

All face cards drawn face down
That's just another free Plant.

Discard 2 (more?) per hand played (This is specifically a Hook buff)
Probably a fine buff. 3 or more seems too brutal. Probably not so early, before the player can ensure they get their key cards before having to start discarding using hands.

Must alternate Plays and Discards
Sort of brutal, but interesting.

Increase required score by 0.1X per card discarded
(It's a community idea, isn't it)
What X does it start at? Seems brutal unless starts at 1~1.3x(4~5x for final boss) mult. Sounds like another Wall for me.

Playing a [most played hand this run] sets money to $0
Either insanely brutal or kinda brutal. Discourages Telescope/hoarding. Not a fan.

[sinful holly]

All jokers start flipped and shuffled

this is more of a gimmick boss

when hands are scored, you can still see what jokers triggers

you just dont know what that joker is

you are still able to reposition them

but you can only identify them with their triggers

imo this is not VERY BRUTAL

doesn’t really ruin builds as long as you know what jokers you have

[surreal fog]

i think they were assuming you wouldnt know how they were shuffled/have the chance to unshuffle them

its basically a nerfed version of amber acorn that just shuffles them every hand at random and gives you no control

new version lets you actually un-shuffle your jokers

[sinful holly]

yeah

[surreal fog]

so its an interesting way to make the boss more fair & engaging

[sinful holly]

making them flipped is actually interesting

[spring silo]

I was thinking about this last night and... I don't know anymore. It has pen/paper issues

It's partially a memory test

[sinful holly]

cuz u can have delayed gratification and blueprint

[surreal fog]

i dont think it really has pen and paper issues but it does mean slowing down your speed makes it easier

[sinful holly]

and you dont know which is which cuz blueprint can be put on the right and not trigger

[spring silo]

Yeah that too - needing to pay attention to animations while not having a replay button would be frustrating for some people

[surreal fog]

i think in practice most jokers will be trivial to figure out and a few will be hard because they have atypical/rarer triggers

[spring silo]

I guess I love some parts of the concept but there are a couple design issues

[surreal fog]

I really love the idea and would love to play against it personally

[spring silo]

Would you play at 4x?

[sinful holly]

well i guess editions would be an easy way to identify a joker if you manage to get a few

same here

[grizzled rover]

perhaps while flipped, hovering over them with the mouse shows how they triggered during the last hand?

[surreal fog]

id probably bump my speed down for it lol, just in case

[sinful holly]

if i know my jokers maybe

depends on what jokers i have

[spring silo]

That seems like a problem

[surreal fog]

requires programming entirely new systems for one boss, not reasonable

[grizzled rover]

i think thunk decides that

[spring silo]

New system for 1 boss like that is a no go at this stage

[grizzled rover]

at the very least it could be a tooltip

[sinful holly]

same thing

coding something for just 1 blind boss is not really efficient

[spring silo]

I'd need a system to keep track of triggers, give them all names and tooltips for every language

It's doable but too much work I think

[grizzled rover]

alrighty

[spring silo]

The easier alternative might be a replay last hand button

but even that is a lot

[surreal fog]

tbh i kinda want a replay last hand button anyway, sometimes i look away when scoring and miss some interaction i didnt think about

not necessarily related but it would be a nice bonus QoL feature if it was really needed

[spring silo]

As-is, you'd be going into the menu every time you face that boss right?

[sinful holly]

tbh

not every time

[surreal fog]

without having played it - my intuition is that id likely bump my speed down, but idk if i would after the first couple times playing it

[sinful holly]

i know my jokers, idk for others tho

[surreal fog]

its a challenge i havent been subjected to before so id likely do anything to give myself an edge the first time

[spring silo]

The memory game part is maybe okay, but the timing part could be an issue

since there is no time component in Balatro

[surreal fog]

mhm

[sinful holly]

ye

[spring silo]

Hmmm I wonder if I could slow the game down for the joker triggers automatically

[sinful holly]

tbh that’s probably a good solution

[spring silo]

Not like it would be a huge issue to have a couple hands slower

[surreal fog]

probably the easiest solution, but then you have aboss that is just slower to fight than others

its the minimum viable product

[spring silo]

It's a final boss though - so will only show up on 1/5 full runs

[sinful holly]

not really a concern considering this is usually the last ante, so im fine with it

[spring silo]

and I don't know how many full runs people will have per run

[sinful holly]

same

[surreal fog]

probably 1 or less full runs per run if i had to guess

[spring silo]

I'd wager you're close

[sinful holly]

well idk the balance so idk how far get i’ll get

[spring silo]

Anyway that is something I can patch post-launch if need be

it's pretty minor in the grand scheme

[surreal fog]

i think having more unique boss effects is worth little hiccups like this

[spring silo]

I know there is some criticism of these new bosses, but I went through them all and selected the replacement effects, they're all so much cooler/fair than before

Old ones they were replacing were not great

[surreal fog]

if bosses need another pass in the future, thats fine, but the ones that got sent home needed to be sent home lol

[sinful holly]

yea

[surreal fog]

do you mind sharing which effects got assigned to which names?

if not thats fine ofc

[sinful holly]

no more “yeets em” yey (at least not as much)

[spring silo]

It's not set in stone yet

I'll share something later on once it's all implemented

[surreal fog]

👍 makes sense

[patent atlas]

If you're going to add more face down mechanics for cards in hand, can you make it so cards you enhance with tarot mid blind stay flipped back face up? Same issue of on 4x speed you have to slow the game down to see the cards if you're trying that cheeky niche play to see what you have.

[surreal fog]

if that bug was going to be fixed id rather they stay face down i think

unintuitive

[minor radish]

thats a bug?

[surreal fog]

yeah just got left in bcuz its kinda harmless and funny

[minor radish]

it's pretty nice

[grizzled rover]

isn't there a term for things that were bugs/unintended that became features

[spring silo]

I don't know I think that suggestion makes sense to add - keeping them flipped just seems like qol to me

Since it actually reveals them in the deck peek too

[grizzled rover]

:o

[spring silo]

And yeah right now lower speed is incentivized

I don't see the harm - might be a tad confusing but in a good way

like a good surprise

[surreal fog]

yeah fair

i guess unintuitive doesnt hurt if its ultimately positive

[spring silo]

That's how I feel about the tutorialization of interest as well lol

I don't think I need to mention it in the tutorial because you're bound to get over $5 at some point

Happy surprise albeit slightly confusing

[steel bronze]

I think every strategy roguestuff needs to have some aspects of this - learning mechanics and understanding the systems is inherently fun if you're not getting penalized for knowing them. Having small positive surprises like that seems like a good thing to me

[spring silo]

100% agree

[patent atlas]

Very much agree with Fazzie

[spring silo]

It's part of what I enjoy about roguetypes

[patent atlas]

Secret hands are like this in game too

[spring silo]

I learned the hard way that some people hate this though

And there is definitely a balance

For example, one could argue the same thinking can be applied to Blueprint not having the 'compatible' flag

So it's a shades of grey thing

[steel bronze]

At some point you gotta put your feet down and say you're making the game you want to do and that some people simply aren't in the target audience. Not everyone is gonna enjoy Binding of Isaac or Cultist Simulator but that doesn't mean they're worse games because of that (arguably imo, they're better games because of that)

[grizzled rover]

i personally like the discovery aspect if they're easy to discover, and dislike it if it shows up many hours into gameplay and screws me over as a result

[steel bronze]

Blueprint not having it means you'd be penalized for thinking a mechanic works a certain way but doesn't, no?

If person has an assumption A and then they discover it's B (and B is worse than A) then they feel terrible and bad.
However, if the assumption is B and they discover it's A they feel awesome and rewearded for experimenting.

For this type of design to work I feel it needs to be upwards - whenever something isn't quite like you thought it was it means it's better for you rather than worse for you

[vague plank]

discovering cool quirks that give benefits is always nice
quirks that are downsides and don't behave in a way the player expects in a negative way are very not nice though

[grizzled rover]

i think blueprint being changed to copying ability only at start of round fixes this issue as well, as i'm assuming you no longer need a compatability tag

end-of-round bonuses and juggler won't be broken to dupe

[spring silo]

I don't necessarily agree with that either though - for example the Wheel being 2 in 7 if you have Oops! all 6s is (I'd argue) largely unexpected and technically a negative but in terms of game design/feel I think it adds

[grizzled rover]

depends if players find that little surprise interaction fun

[spring silo]

Maybe it's more about player expectation and 'Oh yeah that makes sense' vs discovering something and saying 'Oh that goes agains the model of the game I had in my brain'

[vague plank]

what is the exact effect of oops all 6s?

[spring silo]

It says 'Doubles all probablilities'
probablilities is in green

So in the game any time you see '1 in X chance' it changes it to '2 in X'

[steel bronze]

That's fair

[vague plank]

.2 * 2 is .4, not 2 in 7

I'm confused

[grizzled rover]

not wheel of fortune, wheel boss

[vague plank]

OH

[spring silo]

Wheel boss yeah

[vague plank]

that's hilarious

[spring silo]

Also wheel of fortune though

1 in 5 to 2 in 5

[vague plank]

that's the card doing what it says, so I wouldn't even say that's a negative quirk

[steel bronze]

Also RE the blueprint, I think it'd be a nice QoL if when you hovered over it on the shop it'd show what jokers in hand are compatible and which aren't so you're not screwed over for not knowing the joker you wanted to copy isn't compatible

[spring silo]

I mean 'negative' as in worse for the player

I think it's a positive design feature

[vague plank]

yes but I think the key point of discussion was the quirkiness

[steel bronze]

I wouldn't put it in the same boat as using a tarot card to reveal face-down cards

[grizzled rover]

it may be working as the card expresses it will, but the player will be in a mindset about how this affects their build, and often won't even be thinking about how this could affect bosses. it's a completely new area and i think will still be a nasty surprise for some players

[vague plank]

i.e. things that behave in an unexpected way that you wouldn't have expected from reading the mechanics

The Wheel is a probability, and the Joker says it doubles all probabilities, so that's a negative interaction, but I wouldn't call it a quirky one. it's more funny than quirky

[vague plank]

exactly

[vague plank]

there's a difference between "oh no! I didn't think of that" and "what the heck?? why did that happen?"

[steel bronze]

The wheel interaction there is a logical one - logically, it increases all chances, no buts of ifs. It makes sense it interacting with the wheel, even if you haven't thought about that specificaly.

Using a Hierophant to reveal face-down cards isn't like that. Nothing in either the hierophant or the Wheel indicates that buffing a face-down card reveals it. It's a entirely new and fully unexplained mechanic. You would never think the game works this way by thinking merely about the text, you'd have to do it in-game to learn it.

[spring silo]

The idea is that the discovery of an unexplained mechanic is sometimes a good experience and sometimes a bad experience - I was just saying that doesn't necessarily mean that the surprise needs to be positive or negative for the players strength

[spring silo]

Yeah exactly this

[grizzled rover]

it still feels bad to the player

[vague plank]

I would find it hilarious

[grizzled rover]

okay good for you

[steel bronze]

I feel like if it's negative they must be "oh no! I didn't think of that" but if they are positive they can be either

[vague plank]

I agree

it's like clearance sale reducing the sell money you get

[spring silo]

Generally yeah I agree with this too, but there is one compounding issue that can create. You want to reinforce the model of the game to the player so it becomes a sandbox, and every time the game does something inconsistent with that model it becomes a little less magical

[grizzled rover]

no, the player has no way of knowing that will happen

the game doesn't say sell prices are half buy price

[vague plank]

sell prices are based on the buy prices

[spring silo]

So even if it's a positive surprise it should still make something click - not be totally out of left field

[grizzled rover]

the game also doesn't say that sell prices are changeable; a player could assume they're fixed

[vague plank]

more expesive cards sell for more, so if the cards cost less it would make sense that they sell for less

[steel bronze]

nyehh, yeah that's fair enough yeah, I can see that

[vague plank]

egg exists

[grizzled rover]

yes because a player will always be able to make that connection.

[spring silo]

This is a good example of the 'shaky ground' idea I'm talking about. Makes the player question things that should maybe be better explained to begin with

[grizzled rover]

it being explicitly stated as the card's ability makes it an exception in the player's mind

[spring silo]

So yeah that is a weak point

[vague plank]

it isn't about whether they will always be able to make the connection, it's about whether the connection is there so that it would be possible for them to figure it out beforehand

[grizzled rover]

not an indication that's the rule for the whole game

for some players it's not going to be possible! not everyone is a master logician

[spring silo]

I don't think its reasonable to expect a player would know that voucher decreases sell costs

[steel bronze]

I do feel like clearence sale shouldn't affect the sell price of jokers already in your deck tbfh

[vague plank]

I don't think players will often or at all make that connection before buying it, but once they do they will immediately be able to make the connection of why it is like that

[spring silo]

That means their internal model is modified, not strengthened

[grizzled rover]

but the entire problem is that it's only known after they've bought it

and they must deal with the downside

[spring silo]

Yeah I agree

[grizzled rover]

that's often going to be frustrating

[spring silo]

It's an issue

There are some hidden systems where I don't need to show that info but sell price isn't hidden at all so it should be changed

[minor radish]

"immediately" 😭 yep, totally

[vague plank]

could Clearance Sale say "Reduce card and pack Buy & Sell prices by 25%" or something like that?

[minor radish]

sell isn't 25% though

[spring silo]

It could yeah - that is one way to fix it

[minor radish]

2$ goes to 1$

[spring silo]

It is, just floored to the next whole num

[minor radish]

ah right

[spring silo]

Otherwise I think there might be some wonkiness with buying a joker for the same price you can sell it for

[steel bronze]

I can really see this yeah

[grizzled rover]

some sell prices aren't floored from what i've seen

[patent atlas]

Would astronomer get wordier as well than?

It also reduces sell cost

[spring silo]

Does astronomer reduce sell cost?

[grizzled rover]

i think they go to $1

[spring silo]

Oh right

[minor radish]

^

[patent atlas]

Yeah

[spring silo]

This is such an interesting one

Is that information worth adding to the description?

[patent atlas]

Which did wreck my superposition run one time lol

[spring silo]

It's such a small part of the card

[grizzled rover]

it does affect sell prices of non-shop planets, which i find very strange

[steel bronze]

Astronomer is the "planet cards are free" one or the "you gain a free tarot card every blind" one?

[grizzled rover]

first

[spring silo]

omg I should have called them Astronomer and Astrologer

[vague plank]

the game hasn't released yet

[spring silo]

Maybe astronomer doesn't need to touch sell price

[vague plank]

there's still time

[steel bronze]

Astronomer is a weird joker tbfh. It seems very exceedingly weak with how little it inpact things I could see you being able to sell them to make it a money joker

[spring silo]

Full game it'll be better, still niche

[patent atlas]

I think in demo astronomer feels weak and that would be a good change, but idk overall balance

[vague plank]

what if Astronomer made planet packs free or half price?

[spring silo]

With things like the Planet vouchers that increase planet spawn rate in shop

and shop size can go to 4

[patent atlas]

Cardomancer is the jam though

[steel bronze]

Fair enough, but I think it being able to sell the planets as a joker money would be interesting - it adds a much more interesting wrinkle to the card, and means if you go this full planet spam build you get a more interesting payoff than just "your hands are super high level now"

[woeful vessel]

All jokers strt flipped and shuffled seems very not brutal tbh, once you play one hand you will know where like 95% of your jokers are from the bonus they give to the hand

Even if you have multiple utility and blueprint, you’ll be able to figure out which one is blueprint

Unless you have three jokers that do nothing or multiple sets of 2 jokers that do nothing

Also I think we should combine the psychic and the alternating discards and hands

Forced to discarding 5 cards would be neat

[grizzled rover]

alternating plays and discards seems very punishing

I can't tell if it makes for a good final boss or if it's too much

[surreal fog]

iirc once you are out of discards its just hands now so its only alternating til you run out of discards

which makes it not that crazy

[spring silo]

I think I have the final boses figured out now - here's what I have:

• Verdant Leaf - Sell a Joker to disable debuff
• Violet Vessel - 6x base
• Crimson Heart - One random Joker disabled every hand
• Amber Acorn - Flips and shuffles all Joker cards
• Cerulean Bell - Forces 1 card to always be selected

They are all interesting/generic enough to be a challenge on every build without being against a particular build

[surreal fog]

Oooooo interesting, cerulean bell ending up with that ability surprised me but it makes sense

[spring silo]

It was going to be -1 hand size

[surreal fog]

I think this is much better

[spring silo]

But I swapped it and the manacle

-1 hand size still fits thematically with manacle

[surreal fog]

Yeah and 1 card preselected does feel pretty final boss-y

[spring silo]

I didn't want to hide that ability for a final boss you rarely see

but it fits pretty well

[woeful vessel]

Violet vessel seems so much worse than everything else

Actually cerulean can be pretty devastating

[spring silo]

worse as in hard? easy? poorly designed?

[woeful vessel]

It just seems a lot harder than the ones targetting jokers

[surreal fog]

i assumed they meant hard but its the only final boss that can easily be rebalanced

[spring silo]

It's kind of based on the Wall

But regardless it's beatable

[woeful vessel]

I think just a simple “hehe I’m stronger” is also just a simple is good. But unless your constellation is 6x it alsmost always seems harder

[surreal fog]

I think its fine, if it ends up being particularly difficult its a single number change

[woeful vessel]

Yeah true

[spring silo]

Easy to balance, for sureeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

YO

keyboard stop

[woeful vessel]

Also is Amber gonna shuffle after every hand played?

[spring silo]

No just the first hand

[woeful vessel]

Or just at the start

[spring silo]

Otherwise it wouldn't need to flip

[surreal fog]

it becomes a deduction game

[woeful vessel]

A fairly easy deduction game tho

Especially for a finall boss when you have less utility jokers than midgame

[surreal fog]

well utility jokers dont usually care about order anyway

so fewer utility jokers actually makes it harder

[woeful vessel]

Only blueprint really

Cause it will just be like, play one hand then move all the xmults to the right

[spring silo]

It might be too easy

The previous version was 'shuffle them every hand'

[surreal fog]

shuffle every hand was so frustrating and removed so much strategy

[spring silo]

And that seemed balanced but annoying

[woeful vessel]

Yeah

I like the concept tho

[surreal fog]

im pretty excited for the three new final bosses ngl

[quiet oracle]

Crimson Heart will be very fun

[spring silo]

Hey I can just make it 3X base for amber

just a number to balance if that's the issue

The puzzle might be fun enough to keep and just balance the multiplier

[surreal fog]

mhm

even if the puzzle ends up trivial its still effectively -1 hands

which is not nothing

[spring silo]

For the 'third of the deck starts discarded' I have some questions

Working on it now

Does disabling that boss draw all the yoten cards to your deck?

[grizzled rover]

the boss can be disabled mid-round?

[surreal fog]

^

[spring silo]

lmao

in engine yes, effectively via gameplay no I guess

Because the old Fool card just disabled the boss

Vestigial mechanics

[grizzled rover]

i think in any case, even if it was possible, you'd just have to say "too late"

the cards are discarded already, bringing them back would be jank

[surreal fog]

do you know what gets discarded?

[spring silo]

No

It's not revealed

[surreal fog]

oh thats sick

[spring silo]

It'll be handled like the wheel

[grizzled rover]

you can look at your draw pile though?

oh ew

i thought we'd get to plan around it

😔

[surreal fog]

Nah then itd just be "rifle through deck at start of round"

every single time you fight it youd have to check the deck setup

itd slow down the boss a lot

[spring silo]

Well I don't know those are 2 viable options

[grizzled rover]

i guess that's true. you can discard to the exact hand you want

[spring silo]

I think both have merit

They feel slightly different

[surreal fog]

if you knew what was gone you could easily cycle to exactly what you want yeah

[grizzled rover]

unless you also removed half the player's discards

:^)

[spring silo]

Yeah flavour wise this boss could be the 'not a great idea to hunt for a card' boss

[surreal fog]

I kinda like "discard every 3rd card drawn", you get to know what gets discarded but you dont get to plan either

& if you disable the bos mid round, it just stops discarding

it still punishes hunting for a card but gets rid of a lot of jank

[thorny shard]

Acorn could shuffle after every discard, so you have to spend a hand each time to figure it out

[surreal fog]

oh thats actually a great way to make it harder

i really like that

[spring silo]

Honestly they are different difficulties, if you don't know what was discarded then I can make it like 10 cards instead of 1/3 of the deck

I'm torn

[grizzled rover]

torn joker moment

[surreal fog]

i prefer not knowing because information ambiguity is a fun boss mechanic & i dont want to slow down the flow of the game at the start of the boss

like i dont want to make it objectively correct to pop open the deck info

[spring silo]

Forcing players to interface with less than complete information seems very very interesting

But like Evab mentioned, some players will say ew

[surreal fog]

its already engaging as we've seen with the wheel

[spring silo]

Because card counting is important for a lot of people that play Balatro and a lot of main strategies

Hmmm the challenge seems more interesting with less information, otherwise the challenge is that you might not have enough cards/the right cards remaining

[grizzled rover]

i just felt it was a feelsbad that cards were discarded but the game forced the info to be hidden

i also like the idea of discarding every 3rd/4th card drawn

[surreal fog]

i think its more interesting if its hidden so you really have to play around what you draw

requires you to be less dependant on the exact setup of your deck

[spring silo]

I like all 3 ideas dang

I don't think I can add more than 1 though they are too similar

[grizzled rover]

now that i think about it though, looking for an out and missing because of an unlucky discard sucks to have to deal with

[spring silo]

Yeah I was just wondering that